Ewan MacColl's accent

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:21 AM

The above is not intended as criticism of MacColl, btw.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:17 AM

"Singing a Child ballad with a put-on Scottish accent seems to me entirely sensible, involving no pretense at being Scottish"

Huh?? Try doing that in a folk club in Glasgow or Edinburgh! Assuming you mean those Child ballads collected in Scotland and containing Scots dialect, the only way for a English (or North American) singer to sing them convincingly is to rewrite the text with suitable English words. Anything else would sound ridiculous. Compare Martin Carthy's translation of "Willie's Lady" with Ray Fisher's version; although with due respect to Martin - whose recording first turned me on to that great ballad - I have to say I prefer Ray's, with all the crunchy words left in.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Scrump
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 03:14 AM

I agree that trying to pass yourself off as a native in order to sing songs from there seems daft, but if MacColl did pretend he was Scottish it might not have been just for that reason. It was said he deserted the army, so changing his name and adopting a false place of birth and accent could have been for that reason, i.e. to remain undetected by the authorities, rather than just an affectation.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: DannyC
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 10:56 PM

I reckon I oughter weigh in here (oooops, there goes the scales a tapsalteereeoo)... based on my limited experience...

MacColl is/was the greatest generator of folksong since Burns. I sing songs on their own merit. I could give a "fiddler's" about all the little details.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Joe_F
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 10:33 PM

Singing a Child ballad with a put-on Scottish accent seems to me entirely sensible, involving no pretense at being Scottish, or at being a 16th-century border ruffian. Likewise, if I sing a German or Russian song, I will sing it in German or Russian as best I can frame my mouth to do it, and if there are any actual Germans or Russians present, they will probably manage to be polite.

MacColl's saying, or allowing it to be said, on his record jackets that he was born in Scotland was, of course, a pretense -- and to me, an utterly baffling one, as baffling as his letting the whole of W.W. II slip thru a crack between chapters in _Journeyman_. But then, a lot of what people do doesn't make sense to me even as foolishness. I still have the songs, anyway.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Effsee
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 07:32 AM

No Don, they don't always lean to the West, that goddamned wind comes from all directions! Mostly they just go with the flow as it were. You must visit your ancestral land, if only to hear a genuine Orcadian accent. It's almost as bad as the Shetlander's! ;-)

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 04:20 AM

Let's not forget that a certain Robert Zimmerman adopted a "city-billy" persona and seemed to be trying to persuade us that a strong gust of wind had just blown him in from an Oklahoma dust bowl!

Why does no-one ever criticise Zimmerman/Dylan for changing his name and putting on a phony accent?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 10:20 PM

Sorry about that last couple of paragraphs. I've really got to proof-read before I hit the "Submit" button.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 10:15 PM

GUEST,memyself, that's not what I'm saying.

There is a definite, clear-cut distinction between what the "young city-billies" I spoke of do and what I—and many others—do regarding accents and dialects.

One singer normally sings in his or her natural accent, without putting anything on or trying to create a false impression. But then he or she might adopt a dialect for a specific song, especially when the song would sound weird without it. That's what I do. When I do "The Frozen Logger" in a Swedish accent or "Bonnie Dundee" in Scottish dialect, my audiences know perfectly well that I'm not Swedish, or they may deduce by my name that I'm of Scottish lineage, but they know I didn't just fly in from the Highlands with heather in my ears and haggis on my breath.

But we all know of singers (and a few of them are quite well-known) who were born and raised in big cities and whose main musical influences are Frank Sinatra or the Rolling Stones, who adopt "possum-up-a-gum tree" accents all the time—when they're singing, when they're talking between songs, and even when they're off-stage—and try to make people think that they're something they are not. They're seriously trying to create the impression that they learned the songs they do while growing up in the Ozarks or while hoboing around the country and picking apples in Wenatchee.   

One is a temporary thing and is used for effect on a specific song. The other is trying to create a false persona.

There's a BIG difference.

And Effsee, can I do a convincing Orkney accent? Not likely. Unfortunately I never met my great-grandfather (he died many several decades beforo I was born), and I don't think 've never heard the accent. I have heard a number of somewhat different Scottish accents, but I can't really distinguish them regionally. If I heard an Orkney accent enough, I could probably do a fair imitation of it. I'm a pretty good mimic

Is it true that Orkadians always lean toward the west because the wind off the North Atlantic never stops blowing?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Effsee
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 09:34 PM

Question is Don, can you do an convincing Orkney accent?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:44 PM

Okay - how 'bout your affectations are acceptable because they're in good taste and necessary; other people's are "phony and pretentious"?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:16 PM

Both ways? Please explain.

I think I stated my position pretty unambiguously. Nothing "both ways" about what I do.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 06:28 PM

Sorry, Don (in relation to the accent thing, not your closing remarks) - you're trying to have it both ways.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:54 PM

I think I come by a bit of Scottish dialect more or less honestly. With a name like Firth and the fact that my great-grandfather came over from Orkney with the Hudson's Bay Company in the mid-1800s . . . and I find the dialect feels very natural when I turn it on. Ordinarily, though, I speak "standard" American English, fairly precisely because of the decade I spent as a classical music radio announcer.

I take a very dim view of young city-billys doing their damnedest to sound like they're eighty years old, toothless, and just fell off the turnip truck. A lot of people do it, and it sounds phony and pretentious to me. When I sing, except in certain specific cases, I don't use accents. I just sing my own natural way, and whatever comes out is what comes out.

But—there are certain times when I do use dialects. For example, I do a version of "The Frozen Logger" with a broad Swedish accent, which tends to crack people up—including the late James Stevens, who wrote the song (he hadn't thought of doing it that way and thought the way I did it was hilarious). Other times are with some Scottish songs, like McPherson's Farewell, Bonnie Dundee, and The Bonnie Earl of Moray. Check the links and look at the words. I don't see how anyone can do a decent job on these songs without affecting accent and dialect.

Considering the bulk of the songs that Ewan MacColl sang, I don't see how he could avoid doing the same thing, even if—even if—it didn't come natural to him.

Y'know, between this thread and the other one, I get a vague sort of picture:

A bunch of Chihuahuas yapping at a lion.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: BB
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 03:07 PM

You're right, of course, in that it can spoil a specifically local song if it is changed to standard English, and I suppose that's why I'm unlikely to attempt many Geordie songs, for instance. I suppose I'm thinking mainly of Scottish songs which are not necessarily localised, and which can often be 'Anglicised' without detracting from the songs. In fact, there are loads of songs within the tradition which are not dependant on local dialect, so no need for monotony!

Coming from the West Country, I have a real dislike of people adopting a 'Mummerset' accent when singing songs from this area! And again, unless it's a specifically dialect song, it's usually unnecessary.

Personally, I think it's a shame that people don't do more research into songs local to them, thus giving their repertoire a more personal identity, particularly if they're in sessions at festivals where maybe songs from their locality aren't so widely known. Far from being monotonous (and what is it when the Coppers songs are sung far and wide, by people from far and wide?), it would surely add to the variety.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Scrump
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 09:27 AM

Interesting sub-thread here about whether to use dialect or accents appropriate to the song. My own view is that using the appropriate accent for a song is fine, providing the singer takes the trouble to learn to speak the accent properly. For many people, this isn't hard to do, it just takes time and study, just like learning to speak a foreign language does.

If a song is written in a local dialect, it uses dialect words and it would spoil the song if these were translated into 'standard' English (often it would be difficult to get it to scan or rhyme properly, as well). I think the accent and dialect help to provide the right feeling and atmosphere for the song.

I think it would be a shame if people were only encouraged to sing songs from their own part of the country. If that were the case many folk clubs and sessions would tend to get pretty monotonous as a result.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 10:18 AM

Liam's Brother-

Nicely put.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 08:01 AM

bingo

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 11:39 PM

The ethics of affecting singing accents was a matter of considerable interest to me until I heard field recordings of some of the old lumbermen made by Helen Hartness Flanders. Most had learned their songs in lumbercamp shanties, which, like the bothies of Scotland or the bunkhouses of the Golden West, were isolated meeting places where people of a few cultures gathered and entertained each other, exchanging songs in the process. Some of the lumbermen assimilated the songs, i.e. sang them in their normal speaking voices, while others affected the accents and/or mannerisms (ornamentation, ending a song with a few spoken words, etc.) of the men from whom they learned the song. This was probably a form of respect either for the original singer or the song or both. So, in the tradition, there was flexibility in performance.

In New York City in 1860, 25% of the population was born in Ireland. Their children made up another 8% I'm sure. Those kids all heard Irish accents at home and on the street, and certainly most could do some kind of Irish accent without any trouble. Working class performers on the vaudeville stage, where ethnic characterisations were very commonplace in the 19th century, sang real life songs which later passed into tradition. "Drill, Ye Tarriers Drill" and "When McGuinness Gets a Job" would be a good examples. So, in the city as well as the country, affecting an accent was normal, not weird.

Few of us speak the same way on a job interview as we do when we are out for drinks with our mates or angry with other motorists. Most of us vary our way of speaking to greater or lesser degrees.

Getting back to Ewan MacColl, he was someone who existed on a number of different levels. Did he have working class Scottish origins? Did he grow up around Manchester? Was he an actor? Did he work for the BBC? Was he deeply interested in the plight of working class people? Did he want to sing as many great folk songs as he could? Was he opinionated? Did he ever contradict himself? Did he ever make a mistake? The answer to all, I believe, is "Yes." No mystery about Jimmy Miller. He was a complex person trying to excel at a number of different things, some of which were difficult to reconcile. He was very talented and very human too.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: BB
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 03:22 PM

My own feeling on the use of accents or dialects which are not natural to a singer is that it is better to 'translate' the words, and in most cases it need not spoil the beauty of the songs - much of the time, they don't require a great deal of translation and come out sounding all the better for that singer using their own natural accent. And perhaps those that don't translate successfully should be left to those to whom the accent/dialect *is* natural.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 05:23 AM

To 'Captain Birdseye' - fair enough! I respect your opinion.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Scoville
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 06:45 PM

I have to admit I haven't listened to very much Ewan MacColl, but on the subject of adopted accents in general, I don't really see what the fuss is about. If he did, he was hardly alone, even among respected musicians who undeniably contributed a lot to folk music in general.

I've sort of got opinions on both sides of this--on the one hand, I hate a phony accent if it's not really needed. I saw the Old Crow Medicine Show last year and was sorely tempted to tell Ketch Secor that he needed to stop the fake Southern drawl because it was both embarrassing to himself and verging on insulting to his audience. I didn't like it about the New Lost City Ramblers, either. Just me.

On the other hand, sometimes a song doesn't come out right without its "native" accent. An old song in a Scottish dialect sounds really weird sung in an East Texas twang (I've heard it. It ain't pretty), even if that is what is most honest of the singer. Unless we want to translate everything into our own form of English, which would spoil the beauty of a lot of good songs, my personal feeling is that we can cut people a little slack on borrowed accents.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 05:23 PM

Would it be it presumptuous of me to suggest that it isn't really about who we prefer or not, just that different singers touch different parts of the soul.

Eva cassidy does things to me that Ewan MacColl couldn't ever have hoped to do, but it works both ways. My soul has a hunger for many different flavours. MacColl's flavour does not need to be compared to anyone elses to be appreciated.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 05:06 PM

shimrod, I am entitled to my opinion,he is a great singer in your opinion , thats fine, but there are others I prefer.
1. we dont all have to share exactly the same viewpoint.
2. singing with feeling has got nothing to do with being clever, personally if I had a choice betwen a. l. lloyd and maccoll, it wouldnt be ewan, that doesnt mean that he wasnt a good singer, but just that there are others that do more for me.
    JEANNIE ROBERTSON, Thats my kind of singer someone who makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 05:00 PM

what if you can't criticize?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:42 PM

The first song I ever did in public was 'Dirty old town', playing harmonica with the school music group. And yes, the teacher said I could never bend that last note but I did:-)

Having said that I was never a big fan of Jimmy but I can apprecaite what he did. What you must remember is that those who can, do. Those who can't, critricise.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:28 PM

Yes

The excitement factor, or indeed love factor if I may be so bold as to embellish your point is crucial.

He seems to me to have had great humanity and appears to have loved "folk music" as much as he loved the "folk" from whom it grew. That is what I hear in all his music is this deep abiding empathy and care for his art and I believe he often captured the soul of the songs he samg very well.

Frank Sinatra is credited with having sung a "hard song book."

Pah!

The highland muster roll by itself is as daunting a challenge as I could ever face. Ironically, Frank sinatra is probably the only other singer I can imagine doing it, though it would sound less like the start of a battle than the entrance to the oscars ...

... Jane mansfields coming, marilyns coming ... they gloom they glower they look so big ...

It turns into innuendo in the end - with a twinkle in his eye and a flash of a smile to the girls in the back row ..

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:13 PM

Some of the more thoughtful contributors to these various Ewan MacColl threads (and, before anyone pulls me up, the 'unthoughtful' ones are the 'trolls' - not those who don't necessarily share my enthusiasm for Ewan's contributions to the Revival - you're entitled to your opinion) seem to be coming to a concensus that he was a great songwriter. Well, I contend that he was much more than just a great songwriter - he was a great singer and interpreter of traditional song as well.

As someone pointed out, somewhere above, he could certainly be an "austere" singer. Some, like 'Captain Birdseye' may interpret this as "lacking emotion" but I think that he was, through the application of his art, trying to let the songs speak for themselves, rather than trying to impose his own personality on them; I believe that this is what the best traditional singers (like Harry Cox or Joe Heaney) did.

If you want to hear examples of what I'm trying to express just try listening to 'Sheep Crook and Black Dog' and 'The Bramble Briar' on the Topic compilation 'The Real MacColl' (TSCD463). The first song is about a shepherd deserted by his sweetheart and the second is about a bloody murder and the effect that it has on the murdered man's lover. I submit that both of these performances are masterpieces of understatement. They are both, certainly, austere performances but, I submit, they both convey perfectly the subject matter of the songs. When I first heard these two performances, nearly 40 years ago now (they were on an earlier Topic LP called 'The Manchester Angel') my first reaction was "what amazing songs!" - not "what a wonderful 'sound' this 'celebrity' singer makes!" - which, it seems to me, is the reaction most contemporary singers are after. I have always felt that what MacColl wanted, above all, was to share his excitement about the songs with his audience - not to impress with his cleverness (the fact that he was a very, very clever man is incidental). He certainly succeeded in conveying that excitement to me.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 03:51 PM

But it is my voice ...

... I hear what you say and I understand the point aboout authenticiity, however I also understand that there is much more to music than rhythm and tune.

Start it up by the rolling stones would sound ridiculous in a tralee accent, and "ride on" by christy moore would sound hammed up and embarrassing in ... well ... Mick jaggers singing accent (a mid atlantic drawl?)

There are some songs where my natural clipped and pompous diction are very appropriate.

Generally they are written by me and so they reflect my turn of phrase as well as expressions and sentence construction etc that are consistent with the accent in which I usually speak.

Being of an eclectic background though, and having been subjected to many cultural influences, I sometimes write in different linguistic as well as musical styles.

These may not always reflect my immediate life experience or indeed "who I am" (in the eyes of the ignorant judgemental observer), however it is often appropriate for the way I use my voice to be manipulated to achieve the most rewarding musical result. This includes a little "accent bending".

Ultimately though, I consider myself to be lucky as I see myself (despite the garbled nature of my posts) to be a gifted communicator. Perhaps it could be argued that insisting on using one accent and expressive style in either music or socially might be seen by some (more judgemental than me) as being a bit like going abroad and then just speaking louder when someone doesn't speak your language.

It depends - conversation and performance are seperate things - one is generally immediate and spontaneous, while the other is generally preprepared.

I could go on for ages trying to pin down the essence of my point but instead I will trust that the gist of it is clear enough for you to kinda see where I'm coming from.

Ultimately, in being myself, it is all something that happens naturslly - I wave no flag and adhere to no prescribed formula. Nothing is imposed on me. I am myself in as many possible dimensions as I can be.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 03:06 PM

yes Jim, the voice is an instrument and needs to be practiced like one.
in my opinion, the greatest interpreter of traditional songs was Tony Rose,.Peter Bellamy, was pretty good as well,
but liking a singer is very subjective. EWAN didnt do a lot for me personally, I find him lacking in emotion. you may not like Rose or Bellamy, they were all good singers ,its just one mans meat is another mans mustard.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 10:55 AM

Guest – lox
Do you not think it would be an idea if you aimed to sound like yourself rather than the singers you mentioned?
I never understood the criticism of The Critics Group that those who didn't sound like Ewan sounded like Peggy – if that was true it certainly wasn't the aim.
I no longer sing, but when I did there was nothing more satisfying when I was on form and everything was working, than to hear my own voice coming back at me.
When we were working on technique (a part of Critics Group work), it was also very fulfilling to find that a song you were having trouble with, say the pitch on Flying Cloud or Sheffield apprentice, all of a sudden beginning to work for you.
MacColl always argued that the first job was to get a grasp of the technique of singing and when that was done you could relax and enjoy the songs.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 05:42 AM

To eric the orange.I am sure you started this topic perfectly innocently, so sorry. however it gives the maccoll bashers another oppurtunity to spout venomous vitriol.
I have many criticisms of ewan maccoll,but I prefer to keep them to myself and have some respect for the dead. I prefer to remember him for some of the great songs he wrote, as i am sure you do too.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:06 AM

Cravats

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 03:59 AM

Needlecord is very hard to spot on films of that vintage.... they just look like striped trousers.

Besides, it was't particularly fashionable until the late 1970's, when wide cord just smacked of rural pursuits and bailer twine gaiters.

LTS

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 03:55 AM

Thanks for that Brian
A few of us are working on recordings of MacColl talking about his ideas on traditional singing which we hope to pass on to anybody interested, when completed. We hope it will lay some of the ghosts
Now - off on holiday.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Effsee
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 09:18 PM

"wearing wide-cord corduroy trousers."...are you sure they weren't just normal as opposed to needlecord? It's a very important distinction you know! Tells a lot about a person.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 09:01 PM

Brian et al-

We are dealing with a complex person, with many dimensions. I, for one, am glad that he took the time to walk this earth among us. I did hear Ewan and Peggy sing once together at the Ark in Ann Arbor, Michigan, back in the 1970's. I was delighted with what they sang and found them very responsive to the questions I had about the Unity Theatre in the late 1930's and early 1940's.

For some reason I wasn't concerned with determining what accent Ewan was singing in. I did note that he was wearing wide-cord corduroy trousers.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 07:11 PM

Jim Carroll wrote:
"Yes, MacColl's BBC voice was an actort's take on it - personally, I couldn't stand it.
Glad you liked the Song Carriers. Many of the source recordings, apart from a few of MacColl's and Seeger's own, are from the BBC project and are part of the Peter Kennedy empire whicht is being debated elsewhere."

Thank you for your response, Jim. Your posts on Mudcat are rays of light in their articulacy, no-nonsense factual content, and lack of personal vituperation. And I had a feeling the Song Carriers recordings might be tied up with the Kennedy collection.

I never heard Ewan MacColl sing live (I find his recordings very impressive, if sometimes austere and theatrical) but have been swayed in the past by the partial view of him as autocrat and didact. Song Carriers shows him to be a supreme enthusiast as well as a great intellect. Respect!

PS Is it possible to be simultaneously austere and theatrical? Before someone else pointed it out.......

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 04:04 PM

GregB,

You have unearthed a point that is very relevant to me.

I am Irish, being born of Irish parents in Ireland and being brought up by them in a culturally Irish home with all the "normalities" of being in an Irish household ... In Hong Kong!

My family left Ireland to live in the seychelles for 2 years when I was a baby, where I spent the first two and a half years of my life.

We returned to Dublin for a year before heading off to Hong Kong, where I celebrated my 4th birthday and every subsequent birthday right up to my 17th.

I attended school there along with pupils of 35 - 40 different nationalities, but developed a very British colonial manner of speech as that was the character of the school (a very english comprehensive).

I am lucky to have been blessed with subtle hearing and as a consequence I am able to mimic fairly accurately most of the accents that I have the pleasure of hearing.

I can also mimic in accurate detail regional differences in Irish accents, be they belfast, donegal, dublin (north and south), cork, kerry, etc. etc. (not to mention English and a little scottish)

I find my accent changes naturally depending on who I talk to. I now live in Leicester in the UK and the same is true of the way I respond to the various different accents I encounter here.

Lately, I heard through the grapevine that a friend of mine had asked two Irish lads in Leicester if they knew me, what with me being Irish and everything. They acknowledged that they did, but stated that I wasn't really Irish but was more English as I had an English accent.

I intend to ask tem one day exactly what they think I'm supposed to be - chinese?.

When I was at school I was defined by my classmates as Irish in no uncertain terms, nor for that matter in necessarily pleasant terms (if you get my gist).

Who I am comes from my roots and they are a crucial part of my identity. My roots are not a matter of ancient history, but are in the conversation I had around the breakfast and dinner tables in my home throughout the entirety of my formative years.

Of course understanding who I am involves also understanding who my parents were - Thud - I am embedded in ireland, Irish history, culture, music etc.

I intend to ask them whether they view Oscar Wilde as having been Irish or not - something I am sure they will have no hesitation in confirming. This despite hm being as "english" as they come in his manners.

If Ewen McColl grew up in a Scottish home then that is all I need to hear. His soul, like oscar wildes and (dare I put myself in their company ... oh go on ...) mine, is born of his roots. He can neither escape them nor can he be denied them.

And for the record, when I sing Christy Moore songs I sound like Christy Moore - and the same goes for Luke Kelly etc etc. They just don't sound right otherwise.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Bee
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 04:02 PM

Joe Offer, singing and speaking seem to involve different bits of the brain: I've known several stutterers who sang like birds, but couldn't get a three word sentence out intelligibly.

I've known people to pick up accents, lose them, and keep them for life. I'd bet ability to hear well is involved. I grew up near a tone deaf London war widow who never lost her accent, and whose church singing was painful to hear.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Greg B
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:21 PM

Accents are funny things, and they're an amalgam of what we've
heard through our lives.

I don't think one's accent is necessarily that of one's childhood.

I'm thinking about Steve Cauthen, the American jockey from Kentucky
who moved to England in his twenties. Before he'd been there a
decade, he sounded British.

My uncle, who grew up in Southern California but worked in the
oil business all his career, sounds like a Texan.

Though I'm from the same place, I inherited my grandparents' Lancashire
ambivalence with regard to 'put' and 'putt'.

After more than a decade in New Jersey, I found that some of the
local accent (not just dialect) had begun to rub off. (You actually
used to be able to tell where in New Jersey someone grew up
by their accent, but not so much any more as people drive
around from place to place. Bug's Bunny is from Jersey City,
one of the few American accents with a glottal stop.)

Accecnts may as easily be absorbed as they are affected. There
is probably some social adaptation in that process, such as
the case of my uncle with the drawl.

What may have sounded 'phony' to one commentator may have in
fact just been bits and pieces that are unconciously assimilated.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,erictheorange
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:07 PM

>>"Les in Chorlton" wrote
>>Sorry Guest "eric the orange" I thought you might be eric
>>the red in disguise.
>>I trust that neither of you will take offense as none was intended.

Ah I see. Nope different people. No offence taken, I just had the feeling I'd joined halfway through a conversation.


>>"Captain Birdseye" wrote
>>who started this. does it matter whether maccoll spoke
>>with a chinese accent, he was an excellent songwriter.
>>he speaks to us through his songs.

I started this. I wanted to ask a couple of questions and possibly get some answers, which I did thanks to some other posters. It matters to me because I was interested in knowing the answers. Is that OK with you Captain Birdseye or do I have to explain myself and get your permission before I post next time?

He might speak to you through his songs but he doesn't have that effect on me, possibly because I hark from a more recent generation than you? Definitely an excellent songwriter though I prefer his songs when covered by other performers.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:06 PM

I'm extremely glad that I heard him singing a few years before his death in a Londond club.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 02:36 PM

Brian Peters,
Yes, MacColl's BBC voice was an actort's take on it - personally, I couldn't stand it.
Glad you liked the Song Carriers. Many of the source recordings, apart from a few of MacColl's and Seeger's own, are from the BBC project and are part of the Peter Kennedy empire whicht is being debated elsewhere.
Weelittledrummer.
By Mid-Atlantic I am of course referring to the strange stab at the American accent that many of our singers, pop and folk, favour. I supose I have got used to it being used in pop and jazz, but somehow it never rings true to me in traditional song.
Joe Offer,
Yes, you are wrong, he was extremely entertaining company, though he was occasionally out of his depth with people who were not interested in traditional music, literature, politics or theatre. basically he was very shy.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 02:26 PM

Ewan's accent was always on the correct syllable---although not always on the "right" one. Listen to his singing of "Shoals Of Herring" on the Prestige album devoted to Alf Edwards' concertina playing. It's the only vocal cut on the LP. To hear what I'm saying: There is a one-syllable word in there that he sings absolutely perfectly---but it contains three actual notes! I think it's quite amazing.

So there !!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 02:13 PM

Ewan MacColl introduced me to the great ballad repertoire of England and Scotland - for that I will be eternally in his debt!

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 02:13 PM

Good call lox, I think you have said it all but that won't stop some sad bastard going on about his trousers!

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 02:03 PM

This is nonsensical grounds upon which to criticise him.

Was he pretending to be chinese?

No. He knew his roots and was able to understand their importance as the foundation of his personal history and subsequently learned a lot about himself and was therefore able to impart a lot about humanity.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 02:01 PM

It's interesting that people seem to be able to sing in a variety of accents, much more effectively than they can speak in different accents. I heard a beautiful torch singer doing U.S. vocal "standards" in a swanky hotel in Warsaw last year, and I was sure she was from the U.S.
Nope, Warsaw native, she said, in heavily accented English.

I can't say MacColl is a favorite of mine. I have always thought of his accent as somewhat of an affectation, and it bothers me. That, and I think if he lived next door to me, he'd be a really fussy neighbor, somebody you could never relax and have a beer with. Maybe I'm wrong.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha.
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 01:59 PM

It dosen`t matter a damm what accent he used, the man wrote great songs,
and stuff the nit-pickers.