Ewan MacColl's accent

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 05:42 AM

To eric the orange.I am sure you started this topic perfectly innocently, so sorry. however it gives the maccoll bashers another oppurtunity to spout venomous vitriol.
I have many criticisms of ewan maccoll,but I prefer to keep them to myself and have some respect for the dead. I prefer to remember him for some of the great songs he wrote, as i am sure you do too.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 10:55 AM

Guest – lox
Do you not think it would be an idea if you aimed to sound like yourself rather than the singers you mentioned?
I never understood the criticism of The Critics Group that those who didn't sound like Ewan sounded like Peggy – if that was true it certainly wasn't the aim.
I no longer sing, but when I did there was nothing more satisfying when I was on form and everything was working, than to hear my own voice coming back at me.
When we were working on technique (a part of Critics Group work), it was also very fulfilling to find that a song you were having trouble with, say the pitch on Flying Cloud or Sheffield apprentice, all of a sudden beginning to work for you.
MacColl always argued that the first job was to get a grasp of the technique of singing and when that was done you could relax and enjoy the songs.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 03:06 PM

yes Jim, the voice is an instrument and needs to be practiced like one.
in my opinion, the greatest interpreter of traditional songs was Tony Rose,.Peter Bellamy, was pretty good as well,
but liking a singer is very subjective. EWAN didnt do a lot for me personally, I find him lacking in emotion. you may not like Rose or Bellamy, they were all good singers ,its just one mans meat is another mans mustard.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 03:51 PM

But it is my voice ...

... I hear what you say and I understand the point aboout authenticiity, however I also understand that there is much more to music than rhythm and tune.

Start it up by the rolling stones would sound ridiculous in a tralee accent, and "ride on" by christy moore would sound hammed up and embarrassing in ... well ... Mick jaggers singing accent (a mid atlantic drawl?)

There are some songs where my natural clipped and pompous diction are very appropriate.

Generally they are written by me and so they reflect my turn of phrase as well as expressions and sentence construction etc that are consistent with the accent in which I usually speak.

Being of an eclectic background though, and having been subjected to many cultural influences, I sometimes write in different linguistic as well as musical styles.

These may not always reflect my immediate life experience or indeed "who I am" (in the eyes of the ignorant judgemental observer), however it is often appropriate for the way I use my voice to be manipulated to achieve the most rewarding musical result. This includes a little "accent bending".

Ultimately though, I consider myself to be lucky as I see myself (despite the garbled nature of my posts) to be a gifted communicator. Perhaps it could be argued that insisting on using one accent and expressive style in either music or socially might be seen by some (more judgemental than me) as being a bit like going abroad and then just speaking louder when someone doesn't speak your language.

It depends - conversation and performance are seperate things - one is generally immediate and spontaneous, while the other is generally preprepared.

I could go on for ages trying to pin down the essence of my point but instead I will trust that the gist of it is clear enough for you to kinda see where I'm coming from.

Ultimately, in being myself, it is all something that happens naturslly - I wave no flag and adhere to no prescribed formula. Nothing is imposed on me. I am myself in as many possible dimensions as I can be.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:13 PM

Some of the more thoughtful contributors to these various Ewan MacColl threads (and, before anyone pulls me up, the 'unthoughtful' ones are the 'trolls' - not those who don't necessarily share my enthusiasm for Ewan's contributions to the Revival - you're entitled to your opinion) seem to be coming to a concensus that he was a great songwriter. Well, I contend that he was much more than just a great songwriter - he was a great singer and interpreter of traditional song as well.

As someone pointed out, somewhere above, he could certainly be an "austere" singer. Some, like 'Captain Birdseye' may interpret this as "lacking emotion" but I think that he was, through the application of his art, trying to let the songs speak for themselves, rather than trying to impose his own personality on them; I believe that this is what the best traditional singers (like Harry Cox or Joe Heaney) did.

If you want to hear examples of what I'm trying to express just try listening to 'Sheep Crook and Black Dog' and 'The Bramble Briar' on the Topic compilation 'The Real MacColl' (TSCD463). The first song is about a shepherd deserted by his sweetheart and the second is about a bloody murder and the effect that it has on the murdered man's lover. I submit that both of these performances are masterpieces of understatement. They are both, certainly, austere performances but, I submit, they both convey perfectly the subject matter of the songs. When I first heard these two performances, nearly 40 years ago now (they were on an earlier Topic LP called 'The Manchester Angel') my first reaction was "what amazing songs!" - not "what a wonderful 'sound' this 'celebrity' singer makes!" - which, it seems to me, is the reaction most contemporary singers are after. I have always felt that what MacColl wanted, above all, was to share his excitement about the songs with his audience - not to impress with his cleverness (the fact that he was a very, very clever man is incidental). He certainly succeeded in conveying that excitement to me.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:28 PM

Yes

The excitement factor, or indeed love factor if I may be so bold as to embellish your point is crucial.

He seems to me to have had great humanity and appears to have loved "folk music" as much as he loved the "folk" from whom it grew. That is what I hear in all his music is this deep abiding empathy and care for his art and I believe he often captured the soul of the songs he samg very well.

Frank Sinatra is credited with having sung a "hard song book."

Pah!

The highland muster roll by itself is as daunting a challenge as I could ever face. Ironically, Frank sinatra is probably the only other singer I can imagine doing it, though it would sound less like the start of a battle than the entrance to the oscars ...

... Jane mansfields coming, marilyns coming ... they gloom they glower they look so big ...

It turns into innuendo in the end - with a twinkle in his eye and a flash of a smile to the girls in the back row ..

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:42 PM

The first song I ever did in public was 'Dirty old town', playing harmonica with the school music group. And yes, the teacher said I could never bend that last note but I did:-)

Having said that I was never a big fan of Jimmy but I can apprecaite what he did. What you must remember is that those who can, do. Those who can't, critricise.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 05:00 PM

what if you can't criticize?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 05:06 PM

shimrod, I am entitled to my opinion,he is a great singer in your opinion , thats fine, but there are others I prefer.
1. we dont all have to share exactly the same viewpoint.
2. singing with feeling has got nothing to do with being clever, personally if I had a choice betwen a. l. lloyd and maccoll, it wouldnt be ewan, that doesnt mean that he wasnt a good singer, but just that there are others that do more for me.
    JEANNIE ROBERTSON, Thats my kind of singer someone who makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 05:23 PM

Would it be it presumptuous of me to suggest that it isn't really about who we prefer or not, just that different singers touch different parts of the soul.

Eva cassidy does things to me that Ewan MacColl couldn't ever have hoped to do, but it works both ways. My soul has a hunger for many different flavours. MacColl's flavour does not need to be compared to anyone elses to be appreciated.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Scoville
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 06:45 PM

I have to admit I haven't listened to very much Ewan MacColl, but on the subject of adopted accents in general, I don't really see what the fuss is about. If he did, he was hardly alone, even among respected musicians who undeniably contributed a lot to folk music in general.

I've sort of got opinions on both sides of this--on the one hand, I hate a phony accent if it's not really needed. I saw the Old Crow Medicine Show last year and was sorely tempted to tell Ketch Secor that he needed to stop the fake Southern drawl because it was both embarrassing to himself and verging on insulting to his audience. I didn't like it about the New Lost City Ramblers, either. Just me.

On the other hand, sometimes a song doesn't come out right without its "native" accent. An old song in a Scottish dialect sounds really weird sung in an East Texas twang (I've heard it. It ain't pretty), even if that is what is most honest of the singer. Unless we want to translate everything into our own form of English, which would spoil the beauty of a lot of good songs, my personal feeling is that we can cut people a little slack on borrowed accents.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 05:23 AM

To 'Captain Birdseye' - fair enough! I respect your opinion.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: BB
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 03:22 PM

My own feeling on the use of accents or dialects which are not natural to a singer is that it is better to 'translate' the words, and in most cases it need not spoil the beauty of the songs - much of the time, they don't require a great deal of translation and come out sounding all the better for that singer using their own natural accent. And perhaps those that don't translate successfully should be left to those to whom the accent/dialect *is* natural.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 11:39 PM

The ethics of affecting singing accents was a matter of considerable interest to me until I heard field recordings of some of the old lumbermen made by Helen Hartness Flanders. Most had learned their songs in lumbercamp shanties, which, like the bothies of Scotland or the bunkhouses of the Golden West, were isolated meeting places where people of a few cultures gathered and entertained each other, exchanging songs in the process. Some of the lumbermen assimilated the songs, i.e. sang them in their normal speaking voices, while others affected the accents and/or mannerisms (ornamentation, ending a song with a few spoken words, etc.) of the men from whom they learned the song. This was probably a form of respect either for the original singer or the song or both. So, in the tradition, there was flexibility in performance.

In New York City in 1860, 25% of the population was born in Ireland. Their children made up another 8% I'm sure. Those kids all heard Irish accents at home and on the street, and certainly most could do some kind of Irish accent without any trouble. Working class performers on the vaudeville stage, where ethnic characterisations were very commonplace in the 19th century, sang real life songs which later passed into tradition. "Drill, Ye Tarriers Drill" and "When McGuinness Gets a Job" would be a good examples. So, in the city as well as the country, affecting an accent was normal, not weird.

Few of us speak the same way on a job interview as we do when we are out for drinks with our mates or angry with other motorists. Most of us vary our way of speaking to greater or lesser degrees.

Getting back to Ewan MacColl, he was someone who existed on a number of different levels. Did he have working class Scottish origins? Did he grow up around Manchester? Was he an actor? Did he work for the BBC? Was he deeply interested in the plight of working class people? Did he want to sing as many great folk songs as he could? Was he opinionated? Did he ever contradict himself? Did he ever make a mistake? The answer to all, I believe, is "Yes." No mystery about Jimmy Miller. He was a complex person trying to excel at a number of different things, some of which were difficult to reconcile. He was very talented and very human too.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 08:01 AM

bingo

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 10:18 AM

Liam's Brother-

Nicely put.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Scrump
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 09:27 AM

Interesting sub-thread here about whether to use dialect or accents appropriate to the song. My own view is that using the appropriate accent for a song is fine, providing the singer takes the trouble to learn to speak the accent properly. For many people, this isn't hard to do, it just takes time and study, just like learning to speak a foreign language does.

If a song is written in a local dialect, it uses dialect words and it would spoil the song if these were translated into 'standard' English (often it would be difficult to get it to scan or rhyme properly, as well). I think the accent and dialect help to provide the right feeling and atmosphere for the song.

I think it would be a shame if people were only encouraged to sing songs from their own part of the country. If that were the case many folk clubs and sessions would tend to get pretty monotonous as a result.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: BB
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 03:07 PM

You're right, of course, in that it can spoil a specifically local song if it is changed to standard English, and I suppose that's why I'm unlikely to attempt many Geordie songs, for instance. I suppose I'm thinking mainly of Scottish songs which are not necessarily localised, and which can often be 'Anglicised' without detracting from the songs. In fact, there are loads of songs within the tradition which are not dependant on local dialect, so no need for monotony!

Coming from the West Country, I have a real dislike of people adopting a 'Mummerset' accent when singing songs from this area! And again, unless it's a specifically dialect song, it's usually unnecessary.

Personally, I think it's a shame that people don't do more research into songs local to them, thus giving their repertoire a more personal identity, particularly if they're in sessions at festivals where maybe songs from their locality aren't so widely known. Far from being monotonous (and what is it when the Coppers songs are sung far and wide, by people from far and wide?), it would surely add to the variety.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:54 PM

I think I come by a bit of Scottish dialect more or less honestly. With a name like Firth and the fact that my great-grandfather came over from Orkney with the Hudson's Bay Company in the mid-1800s . . . and I find the dialect feels very natural when I turn it on. Ordinarily, though, I speak "standard" American English, fairly precisely because of the decade I spent as a classical music radio announcer.

I take a very dim view of young city-billys doing their damnedest to sound like they're eighty years old, toothless, and just fell off the turnip truck. A lot of people do it, and it sounds phony and pretentious to me. When I sing, except in certain specific cases, I don't use accents. I just sing my own natural way, and whatever comes out is what comes out.

But—there are certain times when I do use dialects. For example, I do a version of "The Frozen Logger" with a broad Swedish accent, which tends to crack people up—including the late James Stevens, who wrote the song (he hadn't thought of doing it that way and thought the way I did it was hilarious). Other times are with some Scottish songs, like McPherson's Farewell, Bonnie Dundee, and The Bonnie Earl of Moray. Check the links and look at the words. I don't see how anyone can do a decent job on these songs without affecting accent and dialect.

Considering the bulk of the songs that Ewan MacColl sang, I don't see how he could avoid doing the same thing, even if—even if—it didn't come natural to him.

Y'know, between this thread and the other one, I get a vague sort of picture:

A bunch of Chihuahuas yapping at a lion.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 06:28 PM

Sorry, Don (in relation to the accent thing, not your closing remarks) - you're trying to have it both ways.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:16 PM

Both ways? Please explain.

I think I stated my position pretty unambiguously. Nothing "both ways" about what I do.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:44 PM

Okay - how 'bout your affectations are acceptable because they're in good taste and necessary; other people's are "phony and pretentious"?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Effsee
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 09:34 PM

Question is Don, can you do an convincing Orkney accent?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 10:15 PM

GUEST,memyself, that's not what I'm saying.

There is a definite, clear-cut distinction between what the "young city-billies" I spoke of do and what I—and many others—do regarding accents and dialects.

One singer normally sings in his or her natural accent, without putting anything on or trying to create a false impression. But then he or she might adopt a dialect for a specific song, especially when the song would sound weird without it. That's what I do. When I do "The Frozen Logger" in a Swedish accent or "Bonnie Dundee" in Scottish dialect, my audiences know perfectly well that I'm not Swedish, or they may deduce by my name that I'm of Scottish lineage, but they know I didn't just fly in from the Highlands with heather in my ears and haggis on my breath.

But we all know of singers (and a few of them are quite well-known) who were born and raised in big cities and whose main musical influences are Frank Sinatra or the Rolling Stones, who adopt "possum-up-a-gum tree" accents all the time—when they're singing, when they're talking between songs, and even when they're off-stage—and try to make people think that they're something they are not. They're seriously trying to create the impression that they learned the songs they do while growing up in the Ozarks or while hoboing around the country and picking apples in Wenatchee.   

One is a temporary thing and is used for effect on a specific song. The other is trying to create a false persona.

There's a BIG difference.

And Effsee, can I do a convincing Orkney accent? Not likely. Unfortunately I never met my great-grandfather (he died many several decades beforo I was born), and I don't think 've never heard the accent. I have heard a number of somewhat different Scottish accents, but I can't really distinguish them regionally. If I heard an Orkney accent enough, I could probably do a fair imitation of it. I'm a pretty good mimic

Is it true that Orkadians always lean toward the west because the wind off the North Atlantic never stops blowing?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 10:20 PM

Sorry about that last couple of paragraphs. I've really got to proof-read before I hit the "Submit" button.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 04:20 AM

Let's not forget that a certain Robert Zimmerman adopted a "city-billy" persona and seemed to be trying to persuade us that a strong gust of wind had just blown him in from an Oklahoma dust bowl!

Why does no-one ever criticise Zimmerman/Dylan for changing his name and putting on a phony accent?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Effsee
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 07:32 AM

No Don, they don't always lean to the West, that goddamned wind comes from all directions! Mostly they just go with the flow as it were. You must visit your ancestral land, if only to hear a genuine Orcadian accent. It's almost as bad as the Shetlander's! ;-)

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Joe_F
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 10:33 PM

Singing a Child ballad with a put-on Scottish accent seems to me entirely sensible, involving no pretense at being Scottish, or at being a 16th-century border ruffian. Likewise, if I sing a German or Russian song, I will sing it in German or Russian as best I can frame my mouth to do it, and if there are any actual Germans or Russians present, they will probably manage to be polite.

MacColl's saying, or allowing it to be said, on his record jackets that he was born in Scotland was, of course, a pretense -- and to me, an utterly baffling one, as baffling as his letting the whole of W.W. II slip thru a crack between chapters in _Journeyman_. But then, a lot of what people do doesn't make sense to me even as foolishness. I still have the songs, anyway.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: DannyC
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 10:56 PM

I reckon I oughter weigh in here (oooops, there goes the scales a tapsalteereeoo)... based on my limited experience...

MacColl is/was the greatest generator of folksong since Burns. I sing songs on their own merit. I could give a "fiddler's" about all the little details.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Scrump
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 03:14 AM

I agree that trying to pass yourself off as a native in order to sing songs from there seems daft, but if MacColl did pretend he was Scottish it might not have been just for that reason. It was said he deserted the army, so changing his name and adopting a false place of birth and accent could have been for that reason, i.e. to remain undetected by the authorities, rather than just an affectation.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:17 AM

"Singing a Child ballad with a put-on Scottish accent seems to me entirely sensible, involving no pretense at being Scottish"

Huh?? Try doing that in a folk club in Glasgow or Edinburgh! Assuming you mean those Child ballads collected in Scotland and containing Scots dialect, the only way for a English (or North American) singer to sing them convincingly is to rewrite the text with suitable English words. Anything else would sound ridiculous. Compare Martin Carthy's translation of "Willie's Lady" with Ray Fisher's version; although with due respect to Martin - whose recording first turned me on to that great ballad - I have to say I prefer Ray's, with all the crunchy words left in.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:21 AM

The above is not intended as criticism of MacColl, btw.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 07:25 AM

I disagree wholeheartedly.

I cite "the maid gaed tae the mill" as an example.

It is arguable that a new yorker trying to wrap their tongue around those lyrics wouldn't sound as good as the original.

It would be redundant to point out that it wouldn't be convincing.

but it doesn't mean that it wouldn't be enjoyable, or that the performer was any less credible or honest etc for doing it.

It might be that that self same new yorker has scottish lineage and so he sings it with affection and not just historical curiosity, having personal reasons to be interested in the first place.


But it would annoy me intensely if he/she had the arrogance to extract all of it's flavour and charm and "translate" it into a "relevant modern form".

Am I meant to believe that by doing so he/she would be making it or himself any more authentic?

I find that point of view considerably less convincing!

Furthermore, if that New yorker were to state that he wasn't really into performing traditional songs from countries other than scoltland, as that is where his roots are, that would be a perfectly valid and defensible reason.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 07:33 AM

One more thing,

"Try doing that in a folk club in Glasgow or Edinburgh!"

I can't speak for the scots, but I have seen examples of what I have described in my last post, in sessions in Ireland, where Americans who are interested in their roots and culture have stood up to sing songs which have been lyrically very Irish by nature (if not in language).

I have yet to see such a performance be treated with anything other than respect and appreciation. If a "translated version were to performed I believe it would be tolerated but treated with a bit more scepticism, as I think prejudice sees Americans as believing themselves to be better, and it might be perceived that the "translation" was considered by the american to be an improvement on the original, which in turn would be seen as just another example of American arrogance.

I say give credit to someone who makes the effort to broaden their range and repertoire and challenge their limits.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 07:52 AM

"It might be that that self same new yorker has scottish lineage and so he sings it with affection and not just historical curiosity, having personal reasons to be interested in the first place."

I have no wish to offend New Yorkers with Scottish antecedents. I speak as an Englishman of Welsh extraction who plays regular gigs in Scotland, and I know how well a fake Scots accent would go down in those circumstances. I have, however, been known to sing one song in Welsh, (I learned it in Welsh from my Mum and Dad), so maybe that makes me a fake too.

"But it would annoy me intensely if he/she had the arrogance to extract all of it's flavour and charm and "translate" it into a "relevant modern form"."

Dear me, this forum does lend itself to undiplomatic language, doesn't it? Arrogant and intensely annoying I may be, but whether altering a few specific dialect words of a Child ballad in order to make it sit comfortably in my own mouth - whilst also making what is, after all, a STORY more intelligible to my audience is to "extract all its flavour and charm" is something I would challenge. It's the argument about the King James Bible again: which is more important, the content or the original language? I'd have thought my comment about "Willie's Lady" might have suggested that I realise it isn't a simple issue.

And nowhere did I say anything about a "relevant modern form", so why is that line in quotes?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 08:38 AM

Sorry About the undiplomatic approach Brian, no desire to offend - the old passion runs free in my blood and I am not ashamed of it.

Any accidental denigration along the way is more to do with the enjoyment of honing a well turned phrase than it is to do with any form of malice that might be perceived.

I saw "Anything else would sound ridiculous" floating in front of me and I bit.

The quotes around "relevant modern form" are there to highlight it as an expression representative of a particular perspective, though not necessarily your own, and not to put words in your mouth.

And I'll bet that if you sang your welsh song in wales it would go down a storm.

I also wonder where exactly in Glasgow or edinburgh this intolerant hostile audience is. Are we referring to a particular pub? are are we allowing ourselves to colour our judgement with preconceptions and generalizations of scottish people.

I've known a few scots, some from glasgow and none of them have ever given me a glesga kiss (head butt) and I have never been mugged in the toilets of an edinburgh pub.

The kind of people who would beat you up for singing a song are the same kind that would do the same if you were american full stop, or for that matter from another part of scotland where there was a different football team.

My impression of the scots that I have met is that they have been warm open friendly people who aren't generally so far up their arse that they would judge you poorly for singing a folk song of theirs in a non authentic way.

And if that really is what folk clubs up there are like, then I'm glad I've not been to one.

Am I not being realistiic?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:22 AM

Here is a Jamaican poem,

Sun a shine
and rain a fall
the devil an' 'im wife
cyan 'gree at all
Dem fightin' overone fish head
The devil call 'im wife bonehead
she hiss her teeth call 'im cockeye
lazy worthless and workshy
While dem bust cyalling name
de puss walk in say is a shame
to see a good fish go to wase
lef wit a big grin pon him face

What do I do if I want to relay that to any jamaicans I might know or to a jamaican audience.

Let's translate


Sun shines and rain falls
the devil and his wife can't agree at all
they are fighting over a fish head
the devil calls his wife bone head
she hisses her teeth and calls him cockeye          (cockeye? further
lazy worthless and workshy                              translation?)
While they're busy calling each other names
the cat walked in saying it's a shame
to see a good fish go to waste
then left with a big grin upon his face.

I don't know about you, but tome the accent and rhythm of it are essential parts of that poem. The story is kind of cute, but lacks any real character out of it's original context.

My jamaican accent isn't that good, but maybe it doesn't have to be. Maybe it's not meant to be translated. Maybe the author didn't want it to be sanitized. Maybe they wanted the "jamaicanness" of it to ring out even when read by non jamaicans, perhaps to give the reader a feeeling of what being jamaican can feel like.

And whether they wanted to or not, perhaps the poem does that anyway, which in turn is an essential part of it's charm.

Could the same not be said of child ballads (assuming I have used that term correctly.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 10:33 AM

OK, Lox, let's agree to friendly debate - my "anything else would sound ridiculous" was perhaps not the most diplomatic or tolerant phrase either.

Lox: "The quotes around "relevant modern form" are there to highlight it as an expression representative of a particular perspective, though not necessarily your own, and not to put words in your mouth."

The reason I seized on that was precisely because that perspective is one I've fought against myself in the past. Attempts to make traditional songs jump through a hoop marked "relevance" (a highly subjective notion anyway) always make my own hackles rise.

I'm sure the poem you quote would sound better in Jamaican patois. I don't think I'd be the best person to perform it like that, but if you wanted to I wouldn't make a fuss. However, in the specific case of Child Ballads, what we're dealing with is not only regional dialect (though not always) but archaic language as well. I have a ballad on my desk right now that's in archaic *English* and which I'm trying to arrange in a way that makes sense. Some would maintain that, say, Chaucer sounds best in the language he wrote in, but my job here is to make the ballad understandable to an audience - one which is expecting musical entertainment - in such a way that a long and complex story grips them. A line like "When bale is att hyest, boote is at next" just has to go.

Presented with lines in heavy Scots dialect (I go for English versions where possible but some of the best ballads weren't collected here) I would likewise want to make them more understandable, but in undertaking my revision I'd be doing my level best to retain the "flavour and charm" of the original. A member of the Scots diaspora might consider the dialect to be a part of the flavour and charm, but that is not my perspective. Besides, if you look at what happened to the ballads as they moved around in oral tradition, between Scotland, England and Ireland, or over to the Appalachians, resetting the words in the local vernacular happened all the time. I can think of ballads collected in Scotland and later in North Carolina, in which much the same story is told, but scarcely a single line of the older text has survived.

Scots people are indeed open and friendly, and are generally better clued-up on their musical traditions than we are South of the border. They do, however, have a powerful sense of nationality, and for a visiting Englishman to adopt a phoney Scots accent, even in the cause of poetic authenticity, would be to invite ridicule or possibly worse. Believe me.

I have sung the Welsh song in Wales, but I can just about get away with that because I have the excuse of my family background. Even so, I have had a little friendly advice about my pronunciation....

During the 1980s I was resident at a club in Manchester run by the late and great Harry Boardman (at one time an acolyte of Ewan MacColl, to claw my way back to the original topic). Harry had done the full "sing from your own tradition" thing, and unearthed a large repertoire of old Lancastrian material, some of it in thick dialect. He was himself from Lancashire and, though not naturally a dialect speaker, could use it convincingly in performance. Harry also enjoyed Irish songs, and would on occasion sing one in a cod Irish accent. It might be argued that for him to adopt the Irish accent was no more phoney than singing in a dialect that had largely died out, but to me the former sounded bogus (and I would tell him so). Harry's more usual dictum was "sing in your own voice", and that's what's always made the most sense to me.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 10:56 AM

Just to put in my two-penn'orth here:
I agree with Brian. Part of the reason for singing old ballads is to tell the wonderful stories captured therein. If old Scots ( or English ) dialect words are used, many members of the audience may not quite get the gist of the song, so making the reason for singing rather pointless. ( I know, I may be accused of patronising audiences, but I often sing at Village Halls with totally non-folky audiences.)
I think it is essential to make sure that the words are understandable, and therefore I , like Brian, translate them into a more modern English idiom.
I loved Ewan's versions of Scots ballads, as they contained the original poetry and rhythm, but they took a lot of dictionary work before I understood the whole story.
Mary

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:22 AM

Sing however you want. That's why it's "folk music."

Paying listeners who don't like your approach will vote with their feet. But that's show biz.

Just how bad was MacColl's accent anyway ? Partly it depends on who's listening, but I mean really. As bad as Mick Jagger's African American ?

Does anybody criticize Mick (for that, I mean) ?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:38 AM

I'm wary of "preserving the charm" - one man's "preserving the charm" is another man's "being patronizing or condescending" ... Perhaps "charm" just isn't the best term for what it meant.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,erictheorange
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:40 AM

>>Just how bad was MacColl's accent anyway ? Partly it
>>depends on who's listening, but I mean really. As bad
>>as Mick Jagger's African American ?
>>
>>Does anybody criticize Mick (for that, I mean) ?

I don't mean to pick on Lighter, but I've noticed that generally on this forum there seems to be a tendency that whenever somebody gets a little defensive on any subject, they start to bring in comparisons with pop/rock performers and how they are viewed by the masses. Why is this?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,AFD
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:50 AM

I personally have a real dislike for people putting on 'fake' accents.
Think of a song like 'Sir Patrick Spens' – originally Scots, but still sounds great when sung by Carthy or someone with 'another' accent.
I also believe that people should try and find songs local to them, but I think people putting on accents really turns people off. I can't think of much worse than a Brit putting on an American deep-south accent (or vice versa).

Personally, I'm of the school that believes folk songs should evolve.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: BB
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:39 PM

GUEST, lox "But it would annoy me intensely if he/she had the arrogance to extract all of it's flavour and charm and "translate" it into a "relevant modern form"."

I'm with Brian and Mary here, particularly with the old ballads. The whole point is that they are stories. Stories need to be communicated. The best way to communicate is in your own voice, not someone else's. I don't want people in the audience thinking, 'Oh, that accent isn't very good', or 'That accent/word/whatever sounds strange'; I want them to be listening to the story.

That sentence of Lox's above got to me too - *if* all the song's flavour and charm was extracted, it probably *would* be arrogant. If I couldn't do the song without extracting all the flavour and charm, I wouldn't do it - at least, I don't believe I would. I'm not sure what he/she means by "relevant modern form". I try not to change the form, but I hope it would be understandable to whoever is listening. As to relevance, except that human emotions/morals are always relevant, I'm not sure a song/story has to be so. It doesn't stop it being enjoyable.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:51 PM

If I may insert another angle to this discussion:   

There is a reason that Italian opera is almost always sung in Italian and French opera is almost always sung in French and German opera is almost always sung in German, even when the singers are not Italian or French or German. The text was written in that language and the music for it was composed around the characteristic rhythms and inflections of that language. I have heard operas translated into English from their original language, and it always loses something. It simply sings better in the original language. I don't see that folk songs and ballads are any different in that respect.

[Note:   FYI, modern opera houses have a feature called "supra-titles;"   there is a long, narrow, flat panel above above the stage where they project an English translation of what is being sung—very much like the subtitles at a foreign movie—so you know what all the singing is about.]

No one, including Italians, object or are offended when Americans like Jerry Hadley (tenor) or Marilyn Horne (mezzo-soprano) sing Verdi or Puccini in Italian, or Australian soprano Joan Sutherland sings Donizetti. Can you imagine someone trying to sing a Gilbert and Sullivan comic opera in Italian? And how much of the humor in the "patter songs" would be lost (much of it depends on goofy rhymes) because of the change of language?

The same idea pertains. There may be huge stylistic differences between opera and folk music, but in any form of song, the way words and melody fit and flow together is important and has a lot to do with the song as a whole. Switching languages or altering dialects, even changing a word or two (unless it is done very thoughtfully and carefully) can be like trying to stuff a size eight foot into a size six shoe or vice versa.   

Jerry Hadley and Marilyn Horne and Joan Sutherland learned how to pronounce the languages they sing in as best they can, and they just haul off and sing. But they don't change their names to something Italian-sounding and try to convince people that they are Italian.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 03:34 PM

Guess somebody forgot to tell those singers in the Ozarks how it's done in opera; most unfortunate.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 03:36 PM

I think (and I believe that Brian might already suspect this) that he and I are in fact much closer together in our views than our chosen manner of expression would indicate.

In fact, reading through our discussion, I find a different perspective emerging that renders our disagreement obsolete and unsustainable.

I am starting to believe now that if we are to disagree, it must be along the lines simply of who is a good performer and who isn't.

The recurring worry is that if someone doesn't do their preferred option well, then it won't sound good or convincing to an audience.

Likewise though, if they do a good Job then it will presumably be both.

Folk music will of course evolve. Romeo and juliet became west side story, and thank god it did because it was a masterpiece in it's own right.

However, seeing shakespeares version as it would have been performed in his day, with the cultural context explained beforehand and even perhaps a little glossary of terms relevant to his era that are hard to relate to this day and age, when it is done well, is such a rewarding experience that to let it die out because we have west side story would be a great loss to us and a gaping hole in the riches of our cultural closet.

In the same vein, there was a bloody awful modernisation of the same story in the 80's called chinatown about gangs in an american city, (though which city I have forgotten). It would serve to support the argument that shakespeare should be left well alone.

Equally, many an amateur dramatics society has bored the hell out of their audience by fumbling through lines that clearly have no real meaning to them in a way that has as much real impact on it's audience as a speech in swahili would at a Conservative party conference.

"I don't like that accent" is balanced by "I don't like that interpretation"

"That singer simply doesn't have the ear to reproduce that dialect" is balanced by "That singer simply doesn't have the cultural understanding to translate that song as they have."

Both artforms, because they are clearly different, are equally valid. Both might need a little explanation beforehand for different reasons (unless updating also means recontextualising according to 21st century norms and metaphors etc, which might be an extremely tricky procedure).

One attempts to preserve the story so that its meaning isn't lost, the other to preserve the feel of the song as it might have been heard however many hundreds of years ago.

I would precurse a rendition of the original form with a synopsis of the story, and little reference to certain key words or phrases that might otherwise seem unfamiliar, before entertaining my audience.

They would hopefully go home having been entertained by the music, the unfamiliar sound, the story and that feeling of being a bit special because they knew something they didn't know before about the dialect of the song which not many other people are likely to know. They would probably forget what they had learned within a few hours, but it would be in their minds just long enough to make the performance just that little bit more magical.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:04 PM

I would also quickly like to differentiate between the Charm inherent in a poem or song and the "charm" of a cute cuddly little dialect (sarcasm intended).

If I say that a song or poem might lose it's charm due to its dialect being watered down or otherwise undermined, then I am not saying that the accent or dialect was the charming thing about it, but that as an ingredient it was essential to the poems charm.

If, upon meeting someone with a hebridean accent I comment "what a charming little accent" in the manner of Captain Haddocks arch nightmare Dame Biance Castifiore, then it would rightly (in my opinion) be viewed as a patronising and condescending attitude for me to have.

If however, someone informed me that a poem or song I had written had charmed them, I would feel greatly complimented.

As we are discussing the relative merits of songs and performance, and not the 'quaint' idiosyncrasies that make these jolly little foreign types so entertaining, it is perhaps a little off the mark to assume the worst without first acknowledging the depth of the discussion up till this point.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 06:41 PM

Couldn't you have said that in a more authentic way?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 07:18 PM

I'm fed up with all this crazy stuff.

he was a human being, and a pretty bloody good one

leave him alone.