Ewan MacColl's accent

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 07:28 PM

wld, if you'd been reading the thread before your posted, instead of just making assumptions about the subject line and the number of posts, you might have noticed that the discussion has come a long and thoughtful way.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 07:35 PM

Ewan McColl's constant and sycophantic imitation of Bob Dylan's nasal twang and his mimicking of every obvious Dylan nuance and characteristic is what really puts me off! Why couldn't he just admit he worshipped the ground Dylan walked on and sing in his own real voice instead for a change?


(chuckle...)

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 08:22 PM

LOL - a lot

why am I throwing away this god given opportunity to feign apoplectic fury and disgust at your affrontery.

As I say to my daughter, "It's just as well that I like cheeky monkeys!"

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Joe_F
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:30 PM

For me, the dictionary work is part of the fun.

When I sing "The Reel of Stumpie" in company that has not heard it, I prefix it with a spoken prose translation and little lectures about the caudle & that charming Presbyterian custom, the cutty stool. When I sing "The Second Front Song", I mention what I have learned from reading about the atmosphere of a time that is now passing from living memory, and the political overtones of the phrase "second front". People put up with it. After all, I haven't taken their money.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Scrump
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 05:33 AM

Some interesting views and food for thought in this sub-thread (which now has nowt much to do with MacColl himself).

If I like a song well enough to want to sing it myself, I will do my best to research its background, and if necessary learn to speak (as well as I can) the appropriate accent and dialect. As I said above, this is no more difficult than learning to speak a foreign language, which many people do and nobody questions it (although I recognise that not everyone finds learning languages easy). I will do this ideally by spending time in the area, but more likely I will talk to people I know who are from that area, listen to speech recordings or recordings of singers from the area, etc., and above all practice speaking/singing to get as near to the 'correct' pronunciation as possible. In other words, I work at getting it right, as much as I can.

If I then sing the song and don't get it 100% right, and someone from the area in question gets offended, I would regard that as their problem not mine. I've found that most people appreciate the effort I have made to 'speak their language', just as I find when travelling abroad that saying things like "hello", "please" and "thank you" in the local language (even when you don't know many other words in it) goes a long way towards getting along with the locals.

As for dialect words, I always explain them in the introduction (unless of course I'm in the area where the dialect is spoken), as well as other things like place/street/people names that might have a bearing on understanding the song.

I don't think that not actually coming from the area should be any barrier to singing a song from that area, providing you make the effort to get it right. As I said, most people appreciate this and if you get the odd person who somehow feels insulted and thinks I'm taking the mick out of their accent, then that's their problem. Again you can probably pre-empt this by saying something in the introduction to the effect that "I don't come from the area as you can probably tell, but I'll do my best... blah blah blah... as I don't think it would sound right any other way".

Yes, there is a case for "translation" but what you end up with is not the same song at all. And as others have said, if you do that then you might be accused of arrogance - you probably can't please everybody, but since when was that a reason not to do something?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 06:07 AM

Lox: Glad we're pals after all. Interesting discussion of R&J / West Side / Chinatown. I'm certainly with you in that my ultimate criterion for judging folk music (or anything else come to that) would be: "Is it any good or not?" That trumps high-flown principles and theories every time.

Don Firth: "I have heard operas translated into English from their original language, and it always loses something. It simply sings better in the original language. I don't see that folk songs and ballads are any different in that respect."

Well, Don, I love folk ballads and I can't stand opera. One of several reasons for this is that I like stories; ballads tell a story (as Barbara said), whereas at an opera you have to look it up in the programme. Clearly it's possible to appreciate vocal music without necessarily understanding it, otherwise I wouldn't enjoy Cajun music or get gigs in European countries where English isn't spoken widely. But in the case of a ballad the story comes first and the music is a mere servant.

Scrump: "Yes, there is a case for "translation" but what you end up with is not the same song at all."

So is Frank Proffit's "Love Henry" not at all the same song as "Young Hunting"? The text is substantially different but it's still recognisably that ballad. You can have more than one great version of the same song - that's what folk music is all about, isn't it? Besides, my most radical "translations" have been performed on old ballads that are scarcely ever sung, precisely because the texts aren't understandable. I'm not about to turn out a BBC English version of "For A' That", if that's what's worrying you.

Apologies to the MacColl -philes and -phobes for hijacking their slanging match. We should have started a new thread really but never mind.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 06:23 AM

I don't see this as a hijack, more an application of lateral thinking to the issue of MacColl's use of different accents in different contexts.

I think to explore whether he was right or wrong to do it it is essential to explore whether it can justifiably and defensibly be done at all.

Seems to me that that is the consistent theme of this thread.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,erictheorange
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 06:32 AM

as the original poster I think the current line of discussion is completely in keeping with the issues arising from my original question, I do not feel hijacked (Stockholm Syndrome?)

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Betsy
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 08:44 AM

I'm English and I love singing English Irish & Scottish songs.
I also like American songs - Tom Paxton type of thing.
I have sang Scottish songs in Scotland which is ridiculous , because I don't have a Scottish accent. I can do one, but can't maintain it for the entire length of a song , so I explained all this to my Scottish audfience , and said I just hope I you are happy that an Englishman is singing a Scottish song and that I do it justice.
The generous Scots as usual - held the opinion that so long as the song keeps as much shape as the Scots intended - then that was fine by them.
The phraseology in an English, Scottish or Irish or Paxton song almost demands that you take onbord some of the language root of the song ( I'm sure I must do it ) - how much is the difficult part, but you are setting a scene with the song , so I think it's appreciated if you give it some of the same root flavour - which is the difficult part for Ewan McColl - being the songwriter. Anyway,a bit late to be knocking him - NOW - surely.
Besides some people who have this affectation / over-doing the accent,do so by copying a contemporary, for example most people (seem to me ) aspire to deliver Dirty Old Town a la the greatLuke Kelly in an Irish affected accent , when the song is written about a place in England , by a Scotsman from England .
I'm stopping before I get in too deep, I'm getting dizzy.

Cheers

Betsy

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 03:27 PM

I think some folks are taking this accent/dialect thing ("Do it!"—"Don't do it!") a bit too far.

First of all, when I say that I adopt, for example, a Scottish dialect when singing something like The Bonnie Earl of Moray, I'm not talking about stuffing my mouth with bannocks and crowdie before I sing and becoming generally incomprehensible. I'm talking about singing the line "Ye hielands and ye lowland, oh, where hae ye been?" that way, not "translating it into "English" by changing the words to "You highlands and you lowlands, oh where have you bean?" With that kind of song, switching to an "English translation" takes the song out of context, takes the starch out of the song, and is just plain silly.

I sing the words as indicated, and I've noticed (along with records of other Scottish singers, I have a lot of Jean Redpath records and I've heard her in person several times, including at a songfest when she visited Seattle a couple of decades ago) the way that Scots pronounce certain consonants, e.g., they tend to speak "Rs" with a little flip of the tongue and more forward in the mouth than English or Americans do (unlike the Parisian French, who tuck "Rs" into the back of the throat). Okay, so I do that, too. For the duration of the song. I am not translating it into another language. I really don't sing all that many songs in dialect, but with those I do, I'm sure my audiences fully understand what's going on, even though some of the words may sound a little different from what they hear every day. I'm just going with the flow of the song, doing what feels natural.

My point in bringing up opera being musically best when sung in its original language is to illustrate the tight relationship between words and music. Most opera buffs bone up on the plot before going to a performance, particularly if it's an opera they're not familiar with. Regular opera-goers are not as dependent on hearing and understanding the specific words. They already know what the plot is before the lights go down and the curtain goes up. At this point, the music and the individual performances are more important to them than following the plot word by word.

This is not the case with ballads. The music is important, yes. But the main thing is the story. So it's paramount that the audience be able to hear and understand the words. In a three hour opera, there is only one story (and possibly a sub-plot or two) to keep in mind. The audience at a folk concert may hear a dozen or more different ballads—stories—along with other songs over the course of the concert, many of which may be entirely knew to lots of people in the audience.

With ballads, the music acts as a vehicle for the story. In opera, the story acts as a vehicle for the music.

And no, GUEST,memyself, I don't really think that the folks Vance Randolph collected songs from in the Ozarks need to know much of anything about opera.

Hey, it ain't rocket science, folks.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 05:29 PM

The point, I think, is that MacColl wasn't very good at his Scottish accent. To most Scots he sounded very music hall.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Effsee
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 09:36 PM

Guest @ 05:29 PM, that's bollocks! As a Scot who grew up in Scotland in a mixed household of Scots & Geordie influences the accents are absorbed by osmosis! I myself don't have the accent of my home town, having travelled widely and been influenced by many others. I have lived in several different locations in the UK and have sung in several different dailects. Ewan was raised in a Scots household and a Mancunian environment, what's the problem?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 04:09 AM

There's no problem. It's just that as an actor, MacColl wasn't very good at a Scottish accent.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 04:54 AM

sometimes its impossible not to sing with an accent to enable the rhyme.for example hame and came
a cockney rhyming slang song like TOTTIE ,also would nae work ,if you translated it into scottish dialect, so to some extent its unavoidable.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 08:28 AM

I don't think with MacColl it's a question of translation, we're discussing his put on Scottish accent which was not very good.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 08:59 AM

GUEST

You are right that this is what it comes down to at the end of the day.

Do you think it's any good or not.

There is no clear way of proving this point one way or the other, as it is mainly a subjective matter.

I personally think MacColl does a plausible job of songs such as "cam' ye o'er frae france", "the maid gaed tae the mill" and "the highland muster roll".

I think he sounds a hell of a lot more convincing than Mel Gibson did as William Wallace, yet for all his inadequacy, Braveheart had a fair few scots blubbering into their popcorn with nationalist pride and emotion.

I would also, however, like to add that Captain Birdseye didn't say anything about translation in the post you were responding to (4.54), so on that score I'm not sure that you are quite the authority on what "we're discussing" that you might think you are.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 09:02 AM

then again, maybe he did :-)

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 09:23 AM

Yes, Lox, read Captain Birdseye's last post.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: BB
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 10:21 AM

I may be wrong here, but I have yet to hear a traditional (source!)singer sing in any other than their own natural style, never affecting a different accent from their own. And certainly those revival singers that I admire, like Roy Harris, Pete Coe, Nic Jones - yes, and Brian - and many others who are noted singers of traditional, and in particular, ballad material, do likewise. There must be a reason for this.

Traditional ballads and songs have always travelled, and been adapted by singers from other areas to suit their own ways of singing, whether it be between the countries of the British Isles or the New World, and the same applies - look at Fellside's two Song Links projects. I'm sure that no-one would say that the songs are any less good for having travelled and being taken up in their own way by those singers.

It seems to me that it's all part of making the song your own, and yes, of course it requires a lot of work to make it so, but that is all part of learning a song anyway, or should be!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 10:42 AM

Maybe Captain birdseye's point concerning inevitability cuts both ways:

1. it is inevitable that a certain amount of mimickry will be present, when a song whose lyrics depend on the dialect it is written in is performed.

2. It is also inevitable that the character and natural cultural bias of the performer will determine the overall colour and presentation of it.

There will never be a truly personalised rendition, nor a truly authentic rendition.

The debate isn't black and white, but once again a multitude of shades of grey.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,erictheorange
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 12:52 PM

I'd be embarrassed to sing a song in an assumed dialect or accent. That's not to say it's wrong for some people, just that personally I'd feel a fraud doing it.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 01:36 PM

BB: Do we have one natural voice? Nic Jones' voice doesn't sound natural to me? He sounds too much like Carthy. And, surely, Carthy sings in a voice that he has invented!

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 06:09 PM

Can I just quote from a recent review of one of my albums:-
"I must admit to feeling a twinge of trepidation on first hearing the opening track, a dialogue between the Guardian of the Pearly Gates and the notorious bank robber, John Dillinger.............. Lyrically quite hilarious, but the cause of concern was the apparent affected American accent, which was replaced by a Cockney one on the following track....."

Ewan wasn't trying to pass himself off as something he wasn't. No more am I. Its a performance....it requires suspension of belief. King Lear isn't really on the heath ...he's in a theatre. Marlon Brando isn't really.... a mafia Godfather. Johnny cash didn't really shoot a man in Reno, just to watch him die.

Its not that I'm not following this debate, I just think its damn silly. I suppose there are some plonkers who have elected themselves as the 'authentic' voice of Derbyshire, Yorkshire, the North East, Ireland, Lancashire,etc.

All I can say is that they are mistaken and self deluding. And if you go along with their delusions, god help you. because for the last fifty years - probably even before then - we have been living in a small world. we are not living like a 17th century shepherd who never saw the next village down the road from him - never heard a radio with songs from other cultures. And if your view of art doesn't encompass some of this - it must be piss poor stuff.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 06:26 PM

There you go, folks - we've been told.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 06:41 PM

yeh you're right sorrry!

I just think theres a degree of wilful misunderstanding going on here, of a bloke who was a playwright and whose roots were pretty obviously in the theatre.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 06:52 PM

And really there are two different discussions going on here; one concerning Ewan McColl, about whom some people have exceedingly strong feelings, and another on the use of accents generally, again about which some people have strong feelings. Some of us are thinking primarily of McColl; some of the accent business without reference to McColl. Lots of room for misunderstanding, wilful or otherwise!

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 07:22 PM

On whether or not it's okay for anyone to use accents or dialects they were not born to when performing seems to be one bone of contention. The other is, is it okay for Ewan MacColl to do it? Well, it would seem to me that if it's okay for anyone to do it, it's certainly okay for MacColl. I would say that it's perfectly okay, as long as one is not deceiving one's audience as to what one is really doing. So, how does MacColl stack up by that criterion?

As to anyone doing it—on individual songs—I think I've made myself abundantly clear about my thoughts on the matter.

"It's a performance." Exactly so, weelittledrummer. I couldn't agree more. A good performance requires a bit of play-acting, and where some folkies may get bent out of shape when someone assumes an accent or attitude geared to enhance that performance ("but that's not authentic!"), it is part of the art of performing.

I put great store by authenticity, and take care not to overdo any of these little theatrical "enhancements." But I remember the words of a folk singer from whom I learned a great deal. I can't remember his exact words, but paraphrasing, he said, "On the one hand, by striving to be 'authentic,' one runs the danger of becoming nothing more than a musical stamp-collector, regurgitating only what can be heard more authentically on a field recording. On the other, by making indiscriminant and poorly thought out changes or additions to the song, you run the danger of losing the very quality that attracted you to the song in the first place. But it is possible to judiciously exercise one's creativity and present the authentic spirit of the song much more effectively than by merely parroting field recordings."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 11:22 PM

GUEST,memyself 08 Oct 06 - 06:52 PM

"And really there are two different discussions going on here; one concerning Ewan McColl, about whom some people have exceedingly strong feelings, and another on the use of accents generally"

GUEST,lox 06 Oct 06 - 06:23 AM

"I think to explore whether he was right or wrong to do it it is essential to explore whether it can justifiably and defensibly be done at all.

Seems to me that that is the consistent theme of this thread."

GUEST,erictheorange 06 Oct 06 - 06:32 AM

"as the original poster I think the current line of discussion is completely in keeping with the issues arising from my original question, I do not feel hijacked (Stockholm Syndrome?)"
_________________________

Round in circles? is this one discussion or two? It's certainly a tricky stumbling block ...

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 12:13 AM

I think at this point both discussions are going around in circles that occasionally overlap. Seems to me that pretty much everything that's likely to be said has been said, and no new conclusions have been reached and no one's changed their opinion ... we're getting close to the dead horse phase ...

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 12:46 AM

Agreed.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 03:02 AM

absolutely - the other guys wrong. use whatever voice you want to sing. enjoy it. you're a long time dead.

the kind of people who give you a hard time for the accent you adopt when singing - probably their lips move when they are reading and they have difficulty with long words. I bet they go round congratulating themselves that Santa Claus couldn't get down THEIR chimney.

Am I allowed to be bitter? Yes its SO selective. these are the kind of people who have hounded Jack Hudson out of a living calling him a 'pseudo yank'. Drove the late Gerry Lockran away from our shores and our folk clubs.

Yet they have no trouble with the accents of Tim Hart, Martin Carthy or the gurning tones of Mike Waterson. Well they're traditional, ain't they?

Its the same kind of partisanship and unsophistication that has poor Salman Rushdie hiding in the cellar - the inability to distinguish between the voice of of a narrator of a work of art, and the artist.

And even given the parlous state of education in these islands, its a bloody disgrace.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 05:57 AM

"we have been living in a small world. we are not living like a 17th century shepherd who never saw the next village down the road from him - never heard a radio with songs from other cultures."

So what..... we should all aspire to sound the same? Yes, the small world we live in gives us great opportunity to enjoy distinctly different musics from other cultures than our own. But that's no reason to homogenize everything. Cajun music, to quote just one example, survived initially because of cultural isolation but now flourishes because folks there, whilst well aware of what is going on in the rest of the world, have decided they want to keep playing their own stuff regardless. Those of us who play English music have come to a similar conclusion. Doesn't mean we can't develop it or borrow ideas from elsewhere. Does mean we want it to sound distinctive.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 06:02 AM

no Brian, but peoples right to sing in the voices THEY feel comfortable with, should be respected.

and that goes double for Ewan MacColl, who did his best.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 06:40 AM

Yes, if a person feels uncomfortable singing in an accent other than their own natural one (as some here have indicated), that's no reason to deny others the right to do so if they wish, IMO.

I'll continue to attempt to sing songs in the 'appropriate' accent or dialect, to the best of my ability, and risk the odd person objecting because I don't happen to come from the area in question.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 06:45 AM

and the idea that everybody will sound like Gerry Lockran or Jack Hudson if we adopt American accents - if only.......

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: BB
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 03:47 PM

GUEST, Tunesmith said:
Nic Jones' voice doesn't sound natural to me? He sounds too much like Carthy. And, surely, Carthy sings in a voice that he has invented!

Have you ever heard Nic speak? His singing is very much like his speaking in terms of accent and tonal quality. I think he may have been inspired by Carthy originally, as many were, but personally, I think he left Carthy behind very quickly. And you may have noticed that I did not quote Carthy as one of those using a 'natural' voice.

I have not got into the Ewan MacColl side of this discussion, as I was not familiar enough with him and his views when he was putting them forward. What I am interested in is 'traditional' style, and what we can learn from that.

As for WLD, you're just being unnecessarily rude and insulting, and I don't believe I have ever hounded anyone - I am merely putting my own point of view in what had been a civilised and interesting discussion.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 05:39 PM

the idea that Nic jones sounds likes martin carthy is laughable, neither vocally or as a guitarist, were they similar,. anyone that thinks so should get their ears tested.
   now that guy Dick Miles, was once described as singing with a clothes peg on the end of his nose, but if he had a fiver for every time hes been told what a great voice, he had he would be very rich,so ;;;; you cant please everyone.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 05:50 PM

The most important thing is to enjoy singing.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 12:23 PM

whereas it alright to insult the memory of Ewan MacColl.

If these threads are thoughtful, they are only insomuch as they full of unkind thoughts. And the continued existence of the other thread under that title is a disgrace.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 12:41 PM

Agreed - that's why I stopped contributing to that thread (not there was any great demand for my contributions!).

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 01:29 PM

Pooters of the world come forth and insult Ewan Maccoll,
all you nobodies,when you have done as much as Ewan Macoll ,you might be fit to wipe his boots, nonentities with 1 percent of his talent,pathetic little Pooters.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 08:02 PM

I thought I'd had enough, but -

On a personal level,

I will never inhibit myself or try to inhibit anyone else for expressing their art any way they choose, be it in their own accent or in the manner of a Kling-on.

In fact, I'll bet that there are innumerable trekkies out there who are busy cataloguing a fictional library of Kling-on war songs and laments and who present them in as "authentic" a manner as poosible.

The lord of the rings radio adaptation might have been a little less entertaining than it was had the BBC not been so patronizing as to attribute different regional accents to the characters.

Sometimes of course, we derive greater entertainment from art based in non fiction than art based on fiction.

Songs about real wars, social unrest and other historical events, minor or major in tone or consequence have a deeper resonance as we are aware that they pertain to the lives of real people.

If we strip away the accent and/or vocabulary to make the story clearer, we risk seriously damaging the intended artistic character of the piece.

And if we insist on remaining true to the story to the detriment of it's original expressive form and we subsequently make it less of an art form and more of a historical tome, are we not therefore compelled, in the interests of consistency, to make sure it is accurate and told in a manner consistent with current historical understanding.

We may find ourselves having to edit songs to compensate for bias and the original authors lack of hindsight.

Many of these songs constitute source material. In some cases they constitute secondary evidence.

If we reinterpret them and by doing so they lose their value historically, then it follows that their story becomes less valid being further from testimony and closer to fiction.

So perhaps in respect of both art and history we would do well to leave them alone.

Ewen MacColl has done what the original authors of the songs were unable to do and that is record them. He tried to do this in a manner that left them as close to their original form as possible.

He is responsible for cataloguing historical documents in a form that meant that we might have the chance to experience them in a slightly less dry and rustly way.

He breathed life into a part of history which, in this era, might otherwise have simply disappeared in a puff of post modern apathy.

He has done the world a huge favour. We are a little bit richer for his contribution and I for one respect his efforts tremendously.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 06:07 AM

cock on! fox lox!

On top of that i would like to say that he and peggy made themselves accessible to everybody for years, going up and down the country doing gigs for not particularly high fees. they were always willing to discuss stuff with you. I never knew them to be anything except good humoured.

he may have been wrong about some things, but he did his best for us.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 06:24 AM

Lox, seems we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

"I will never inhibit myself or try to inhibit anyone else for expressing their art any way they choose"

Nor will I, but all of us have opinions about what is appropriate in terms of song choice and presentation. We use these opinions to govern (not 'inhibit') our own performance, and to discuss them on Mudcat is not to try to inhibit, prohibit or censure others from making their own decisions. Didn't the Critics Group do that?

"If we strip away the accent and/or vocabulary to make the story clearer, we risk seriously damaging the intended artistic character of the piece."

Surely the "intended artistic character" as perceived by any traditional singer of former times would have been to tell the story as clearly as possible to the audience they were performing to. Which, whether the singer was Scots or Appalachian or whatever, would mean using the voice that was their own and that of their peers. I have merely suggested that modern singers follow that precedent.

"And if we insist on remaining true to the story to the detriment of it's original expressive form and we subsequently make it less of an art form and more of a historical tome, are we not therefore compelled, in the interests of consistency, to make sure it is accurate and told in a manner consistent with current historical understanding."

I wasn't talking about historical accuracy. I only entered this discussion when someone was talking about the need to sing Child Ballads in a Scots accent. While some Child Ballads (although not necessarily the ones that interest me) have a specific historical background, many do not. They are ancient stories, not unlike fairy tales in their mythology and timelessness. Different versions of the same ballad collected in different places and maybe in different centuries can tell subtly different versions of the same tale. The modern singer has two principal alternatives: choose one field-recorded version as their source and remain close to that; or, collate versions to make sense out of what may be conflicting accounts, whilst remaining true to the essence of the ballad. Both can work.

"If we reinterpret them and by doing so they lose their value historically, then it follows that their story becomes less valid being further from testimony and closer to fiction."

I think you should give modern song interpreters more credit than to suggest that, by making their texts understandable, they are clumsily altering the factual content. Assuming that the song contains any factual content, which many traditional songs do not.

"Ewen MacColl has done what the original authors of the songs were unable to do and that is record them. He tried to do this in a manner that left them as close to their original form as possible."

This is simply untrue. I've no desire at all to join in the MacColl-bashing theme that has surfaced regularly in this thread, but there's no doubt in my mind he composed new tunes for traditional texts. His close colleague A. L. Lloyd regularly doctored traditional lyrics, whether simply to tell a more interesting story ("Reynardine") or gain political spin ("The Recruited Collier") - check the recent threads on this topic. One of the main points of the MacColl/Lloyd-inspired folk revival was to make traditional songs relevant to British society in the 1960s, not to preserve them in some antiquarian form.

What is the "original form" of a traditional song, anyway? Current thinking is that many more of them originated as broadsides than was once believed, but isn't the beauty of the traditional song canon precisely that the songs exist in countless variants, and in many dialects?

"He (MacColl) is responsible for cataloguing historical documents in a form that meant that we might have the chance to experience them in a slightly less dry and rustly way"

If you mean "bringing old songs to life", then I'm with you all the way, both as regards MacColl and what some of us are still trying to do.

"We are a little bit richer for his contribution and I for one respect his efforts tremendously."

Agreed (please note, weelittledrummer).

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 09:28 AM

well so far in this thoughtful thread, all this cerebration seems to have led to the following:-

1) MacColl's Scotish accent was execrable, and he changed traditional material until he had something he felt he could make a powerful performance with, and this wasn't right. Not right at all.

2) everybody whose music is influenced by American diction or presumably guitar phrasing, they are all sound the same and they dreadful, with no right to be in a folk club - well they don't play folk music - presumably bert jansch, Al Stewart, derek brimstone, ralph mctell, etc.

3) Martin carthy and Nic Jones 'put it on' - so they ain't up to much.

4) there were some traditional singers - now conveniently dead who were all right.

One wonders at the climax of ths arse kicking frenzy, just who will be left standing and adjudged to be the winners - the true friends of English folk music. I can't help the sneaking suspicion just creeping up on me that it will turn out to be a load of middle class characters who carry their songs round in a professorial manner, in loose leaf folders, because they can't be arsed to learn the words and they frequently forget the tune.

The preferred vocal style will no doubt turn out to be something resembling Daphne Oxenford in Listen with Mother.

All I can see is If you've seen the Muffin man, tell him where he can stuff it.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 10:26 AM

WLD - I think there's something weird going on in your computer that means you're reading a different thread to the rest of us. Some of us are *trying* to be "thoughtful". You're just being rude and ignoring most of the points others have made.

Your point 1): Nowhere did I suggest that MacColl's changes to traditional songs were "not right", I just pointed out that he made some. He could write a damn good tune if you ask me. A few MacColl-baiters complained about the accent in early messages, but I think we've moved on now.

2): Did anyone raise the subject of American diction and guitar style, Al Stewart, Derek Brimstone, et al, except you?

3): Three posts out of 146 - hardly the main thrust of the discussion.

4): Again, who said this or anything lke it?

"They can't be arsed to learn the words and they frequently forget the tune.... The preferred vocal style will no doubt turn out to be something resembling Daphne Oxenford in Listen with Mother."

Baseless nonsense.

Who's the one in the "arse-kicking frenzy" around here?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: BB
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 02:47 PM

Brian, I've come to the conclusion that WLD is incapable of reading this thread without deliberately mis-reading it, so I think we're probably best ignoring any contribution from him (or is it her?). His/her posts just have to be a wind-up, as surely nothing else would explain the outrageous statements made therein.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 03:11 PM

Perhaps it's worth clearing up a number of points about MacColl's accent.
His father, William, was from Camelon, near Falkirk, Stirlingshire and his mother Betsy from Aucherader, Perthshire. I have no idea how his father spoke, but I would guess it was in his native county accent; Betsy had a broad Perthshire accent until the day she died. MacColl had a good command of both of these, as can be heard in the handful of recordings of his storytelling and in some of the descriptions he gave us when we interviewed him in the 1980s. He also had a good command of a Hebridean accent, as witnessed by anybody who heard him re-telling some of the stories from there which he recorded for the BBC in the thirties, also from his 'Charlie Plenderleith tales, which he very occasionally told at The Singers Club. Those who heard him telling Alec Stewart's 'Jack tales' will agree, I'm sure, that he didn't make a bad fist of those either.
He sang Scots songs and ballads from an early age, a fact which was confirmed for me by this following quote about his first contact with the BBC in 1934 (from 'Prospero and Ariel' The Rise And Fall of Radio by D G Bridson (Victor Gollancz 1971)

"MacColl had been out busking for pennies by the Manchester theatres and cinemas. The songs he sang were unusual, Scots songs, Gaelic songs he had learnt from his mother, border ballads and folk-songs. One night while queuing up for the three-and¬sixpennies, Kenneth Adam had heard him singing outside the Manchester Paramount. He was suitably impressed. Not only did he give MacColl a handout; he also advised him to go and audi¬tion for Archie Harding at the BBC studios in Manchester's Piccadilly. This MacColl duly did. May Day in England was being cast at the time, and though it had no part for a singer, it certainly had for a good, tough, angry Voice of the People. Ewan MacColl became the Voice, a role which he has continued to fill on stage, on the air, and on a couple of hundred L.P. discs ever since".

Whether he sang in an 'authentic' Scots accent is a matter of opinion; I'm not sure I know what an 'authentic Scots accent' is. I think I know what an authentic Perthshire or Aberdeenshire, or Lothian, or Orkney, or Shetland accent is but……..
MacColl was not particularly interested in authenticity, either in accent or in reproducing a ballad sound (whatever that is).
He argued that traditional songs and ballads were every bit as important, skilful, creative, complex and enjoyable as any other poetical and musical form, and he decided to share that opinion with others. In order to pass on the Scots songs and ballads to as wide an audience as possible, no matter where they came from, and to maintain their 'Scottishness', complete with all the nuances and subtleties of the language, I believe he chose a modified Scots accent. I can only say it worked for me.
This isn't to say he managed accents every time. Some of his early recordings have never worked for me; (he often said he could not bear to listen to some of them himself). I still find his 'Nicky Tams', which he hams-up atrociously, rather cringe-making. He didn't make much of a job of Irish accents in his early days and as for his Liverpool accent………
Having said all this, it seems a little nit-picking to argue authenticity. He breathed life into 137 of the 305 Child ballads, many of them in multiple versions.
I will always be grateful for the fact that he introduced me to the Scots repertoire. Thirty odd years after first hearing it, his 'Bothy Ballads of Scotland' still ranks as a milestone in my interest in traditional song, despite its shortcomings. I suspect there are many like me who came to love the ballads through hearing him sing them. As far as I'm concerned that love has lasted me throughout the greater part of my life and will do for the rest of it.
Jim Carroll
PS Where the hell did the 'Bob Dylan' copying come from – come on, give us a break!
.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 03:31 PM

BB I'm not sure you're right about WLD

I think I understand how he feels, (though feel free to put me in my place for being patronizing if you like WLD).

I think that what you are seeing is outrage stemming from disbelief, that someone who had such a weight of positive characteristics, who had such an impact on the world, from "Irish Trad (?)" to Roberta Flack and Coldcut Dj's, could be diccussed in what could easily be perceived as a very arrogant snobbish and ruthlessly selective manner.

The analogy might be slagging off Bob Marley for being only half Black (another half scot incidentally for those who didn't know).

I may be wrong, but it strikes me that WLD may be a scot himself. Again I stand to be corrected, but if I'm right and he is as passionate as his prose would suggest, then who are we non scots to judge.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 03:38 PM

Well that clears that up then - it wasn't only his mum who was a scot.

Like me, his home, ie where he ate his breakfast lunch and dinner and learned his manners and identity, was culturally a microcosm of his parents cultural background His roots were solidly embedded in scotland.

In fact, this thread is complete.

The question has been categorically answered.

There is nothing more to add

I defy you

Oh god what am I saying ...