So what is *Traditional* Folk Music?

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,John P
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 08:43 AM

Well I suppose folker is right it is a minority sport. But I certainly don't have a beard, there is a high percentage of beards amongst our crowd.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 07:33 AM

Please don't feed the trolls - they creep back under their bridges soon enough.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 07:03 AM

guest folker [a dirty shabby bearded minority],50 percent of whom are women without beards.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,JT
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 06:31 AM

If that's what you think what are you doing here you stupid Folker?

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,Folker
Date: 27 Nov 06 - 09:14 PM

What is it?

Shit

Listened to by a dirty, shabby & bearded minority

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 27 Nov 06 - 09:03 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 05:34 AM

jeannie mac , I am agreeing with you again, Jim .

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 05:13 AM

Some do, some dont.
The basis of Veteran was originally to make available recordings of music from one area of England; ie East Anglia, mainly Suffolk.
The field recordings John and Katie Howson made included traditional, music hall, stage songs and early pop songs.
There is a book of songs from J's and K's collection called 'Songs Sung in Suffolk'
The book and tapes are excellent in giving a picture of what was still being sung in the area, but not restricted to traditional songs in any way - though others may disagree .
A far more reliable guide to the tradition is to be found in the early Topic Records catalogue (I think this is being indexed on the Musical Traditions website).
Particularly of interest is the 'Voice of The People' series which covers a large time-span.
In The States of course you have the magnificent Library of Congress records, particularly those edited by Lomax, Emrich, Bronson, Seeger, Korson, Botkin, et al.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 02:52 PM

I've just come across a flyer from "VETERAN",a mail order and web site company which titles itself as "The traditional folk music label."

Its web site address is: www.veteran.co.uk

It lists many songs and artists including words of songs, photos and biographical information for every performer on each CD.

There are too many artists to list here but I would invite you to have a look at their web site and then comment on whether in your personal opinion you would classify much of their material as "traditional folk music."

I am doing this to see if we can't find some sort of focus point which might encourage more commonality between all the different and strongly opposed views on this thread.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Snuffy
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 08:46 AM

J J Niles?
A L Lloyd?

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Scrump
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 08:38 AM

Seth Lakeman's song being nominated for Best Traditional Track (not song, I notice) does raise the question as to whether a writer can compose a song, and then declare it to be traditional, possibly waiving the royalties (although "trad. arr. Bloggs" would allow Mr Bloggs to claim the royalties anyway I believe), and make a false claim that they collected it from a dying miner, sailor or chartered accountant - oops, I meant weaver - who gasped out the words and tune on their deathbed.

Who would be able to tell? Who can tell this hasn't been done already? Does anyone know of cases where it has been done as a deliberate hoax?

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 05:29 AM

The alleged inaccuracies regarding Seth Lakemans' nomination belongs on another thread, surely?

Haddaway and Shite - Copyright solicitors to the stars.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:45 AM

the BBC, clearly is ignorant.
Will S lakeman put this song down as trad and waive his royalties, When he records it.M Hrding as a writer himself,should know better,and as for the BBC I presume they will not be paying Lakeman his songwriting royalties,but only for his arrangement.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:12 AM

This discussion has centred largely around whether the present generation of singers can validly describe themselves as part of 'the song tradition' (not a – but THE song tradition; I think we are talking mainly about a body of song that is held in common by all English speaking peoples) and whether the terms 'traditional' and 'folk' are any longer valid. As far as I am concerned the answer to these questions is no, yes, and maybe respectively.
The song tradition, as distinct from the hand loom weaving tradition, or the traditional way of making pig-iron or painting designs on cups or stitching carpets, implies the making and performing of a certain type of SONG in a particularly identifiable way for certain specific reasons.
I believe our song tradition existed and persisted as long as it did out of necessity. The people who made, performed and passed on the songs did so because they felt the need to express themselves, their experiences, their emotions and aspirations, and by and large, as they didn't have the facility of literacy freely at their disposal, they either created songs or they borrowed and adapted existing songs in order to fulfill this function.
By and large our traditional singers, certainly latterly, were from isolated, close-knit (and usually economically poor) communities. During the time I have been involved in traditional song, if I wanted to hear a traditional ballad straight out of the horse's mouth, I would, more likely as not, have had to go along to my local Travellers site (certainly this has been the case in Ireland and Scotland).   
The song tradition, as far as I can judge, is now dead. Of course traditions die – I can no longer go into town and see a bear being torn to pieces by dogs (should I want to), or be part of an audience participating in the festivities of a public hanging, or take part in a Frost Fair and go skating on the Thames – those traditions are long gone.
People no longer participate in the making of songs out of necessity, but by and large are content to be passive recipients of the creations of the privileged and talented (sometimes) few (Bob Coltman aptly described this as the 'Homer Simpson generation – DOH).
I believe it would be presumptuous of us to claim that we are in any way part of the tradition, but rather, it is far more honest to recognise that we have been lucky (or astute) enough to have see the value of songs created by previous generations and have taken them into our own lives.
The least we can do is acknowledge our debt to the Walter Pardons, Harry Coxs, Sam Larners, Mary Anne Carolans, and all those who have been generous enough to pass on their songs to us, and to see that what we have been bequeathed is passed on for future generations to appreciate.
I think the best way we can do this is not to juggle with semantics and try to alter long accepted definitions (Newspeak, George Orwell called it), but to do our best to see that the songs are given the respect, understanding and effort they merit.
Jim Carroll
PS I think we must have all fallen asleep in class to miss that aspect of 'tradition' Greg

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Snuffy
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 06:19 PM

Presumably it's a traditional recording because it was recorded onto a mechanical device such as a tape or disk rather than a new-fangled solid-state device

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 05:42 PM

It seems that we have all been totally wrong on the definition of "traditional". On another tthread there is a discussion of the nominations for the Mike Harding BBC Folk Awards. Apparently one of the nominations for best traditional recording is Seth Lakeman doing a song he has written about a hare. Now, that's the BBC, it must be official. Now, as a matter of interest, is there a single contributor to this thread who might agree with that?

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 08:15 PM

Jim Carroll, please do respond to my last posting.
A few of you have been monopolising this thread,it is true, BUT whilst I found it initially irksome I now believe the opposite.
The contributions from 'the few' have been extremely well informed and of real value to this thread and to myself and many others.
Without you this thread would have died long ago and would never have attracted such quality and diversity of debate.
It is what I hoped for when I opened this discussion,but frankly did not expect to get.
I have been delighted with the response.
This thread may have run its course or it may roll on, either way I am very content.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 07:48 PM

MacColl and Seeger carried out a test with Joe Heaney when they were recording him (see Road From Connemar - mid 1960s)
They played about twenty records of traditional and non-traditional singers from various countries, mainly Europe, and asked if he could tell which were traditional and which were not.
He got over three quarters right.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 03:29 PM

I think I can recognise it enough to my own satisfaction.

I have spent a lot of time abroad at foreign festivals and some of the teams do sing traditional music and it goes down a bomb. In 2004 in Hungary there waiting around as usual - there were four Bulgarian singers singing harmony in quarter tones - with harmonics arising out of the mixture of voices.

I can still hear them whenever I want to.

That's tradition!!

(On the other hand we made most contact with groups by singing Beatles numbers which are universal).

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 03:07 PM

I have deliberately not responded to Soldier Boy's last posting, thought provoking as it is, as I have the uncomfortable feeling that a few of us have been monopolising this thread - I have certainly enjoyed it but I would have liked to have heard from others (promise I won't be abusive again!)
Nobody has mentioned if they think there is an identifiable style that is part of the definition of 'traditional folk music.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 02:45 PM

Sowhat is traditional folk music .                         Traditional folk music is exciting. Full Stop.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 05:09 PM

I agree with Snuffy...

Kitty

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 05:25 AM

Hi Jim,

I am happy to buy you a pint anytime whenever we next meet. That goes for all the other contributors to this thread!!

And looking at Soldier Boy's contribtion next to mine - looks like he might make the same offer!!

Not fixed any festivals with the book stall next year so far except....no perhaps it is best not to mention it.

Carols - here I come!!

Dave

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 03:14 AM

In other words, have we deified the songs that somehow got saved but turned our backs on the process that created those songs?

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 02:48 AM

Here's an old African proverb "To stumble is not to fall but to go forward faster"

And here's a oldish American proverb-"If you're in for a penny, you might as well be in for a buck {or something like that}.

Sooo-all that to say- here is the new Susanna not like the Old Susanna but Susanna still the same [at least the girl's name hasn't changed].

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fui5VRsyg3A&NR

Osuofia - Susana
[Nkem Owoh Singing]

Added June 14, 2006 ;From bogene2020

But-if they could, would the folks who made up that Old Susanna song still be singing it now the same way that they used to sing it then?

And should they be singing it the same way-all the time? I thought improvisation was a huge part of what made traditional music traditional {maybe that's just some forms of traditional music}.

Does the call & response techniques used in this song make it traditional or at the very least traditional-like [this for those who say you can't know the composer of a traditional song].

But maybe the very fact that it is recorded nowadays and credited to a known composer means that folks would not do what they used to do with songs-use the folk process to "tweak" the words, adding to them or substituting other words for them-maybe using another female name in the song [or changing the gender of the song all together].

I'm just saying...

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 09:28 PM

Hello again people.

When I naively started this thread I had no idea it could possibly go on so long and attract such deep and meaningful intelligent discussion. I really feel indebted to the regular contributors on this thread (you know who you are).
If I was about to write a thesis on Traditional Folk Music I would be more than informed about what to write just by scrolling through this thread.
That's fantastic!

Your very well considered and knowledgable contributions have shown me that compared to the main contributors my knowledge of the subject is very limited, or at least it used to be because I and many others are now much more informed.THANK YOU.
It is a far more complex and contentious subject than I ever imagined. I still hope that we can eventually arrive at some kind of consensus but I won't hold my breath.

Out of interest I thought I would throw this into the discussion and ask you to look at the Mudcat thread on this same page entitled "Why do our songs last so long?"

I found this thread to be very interesting because so many contributors to this thread have expressed very similar views to some of our most hardened contributors.

Bye the way in terms of longevity this thread is looking at the time /duration that songs have been around as opposed to the time that songs take to perform/length of verses etc.

Just an idea to compare notes and look for any commonality.

A bit of cross-fertilisation can't be bad if it helps to add to this very worthwhile discussion.

What do you think ?

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 03:37 PM

Nice one to think about Dave.
You might also add The Copper's book of songs which fixed the texts of their repertoire.
On the other hand, the Travellers, basically a pre-literate group, had an enormous influence on the song tradition here in Ireland by having printed and distributing their songs on ballad sheets and selling them round the fairs and markets (wonderful dichotomy).
There are exceptions to all rules.
Jim Carroll
As you have stated your enjoyment of this thread in such glowing terms, I think this means you owe us all a pint!

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 12:14 PM

I am enjoying this!! It brings back those nights years ago over large glasses of whatever hooch we had available.

Let me throw this one into the equation.

On Sunday I shall be in the pub singing along with a load of others the traditional carols wiped out when Hymns Ancient and Modern drove them from the churches and (in our area) into the pub.

We call them traditional and indeed no other description would fit this, described as "one of the most remarkable instances of popular traditional singing in the British Isles".

Similar traditions exist in Cornwall at Padstow, (who have exported it with their miners to Grass Valley California and to Australia)and in Glen Rock Pennsylvania where a small pocket of these carols exist thanks to some people who went there in 1848 and wanted to celebrate Xmas like they did back in England.

There are other areas of such singing in the UK, notably in Odcombe Somerset, discovered in the early 1970's. And a revived tradition in Canada.

Yet thanks to meticulous research by Ian Russell we know the author of the vast bulk of these carols and generally they remain unaltered from the originals.

Yet virtually all of these are learnt orally - I did and so did most of the people who go regularly. We continue to change by introducing new (old) carols - also all written down, and I can remember many of these changes and why they came in.

So there we are, by those who have listened clearly traditional, learnt orally, yet written down with known authors and unchanged!!

Errrr..........

And it starts Sunday - can't wait!!!!!!

Dave

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Scrump
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 10:27 AM

I agree entirely with Snuffy, Greg and Ron; the tradition is a process and a song has to go through that process before it can wear the tee-shirt

Fair enough. I think we're all agreed on that - you can't just write a new song or tune in 'traditional' style, and say immediately that it's traditional. Something has to happen to it first - but what, exactly? Who decides when a song has 'been through the process' and declares "this song is now traditional"?

For example, the jig "Calliope House" (composed by Dave Richardson) is considered by many (including me) to be one of the finest jigs written by a modern-day composer. The tune is widely played in sets, usually alongside others of unknown authorship that most people would say are indisputably traditional.

How much more time has to pass, and what else has to happen, before Calliope House can be declared "traditional" - and who decides?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing against the idea that a song/tune has to become traditional after some sort of process, but I'm trying to find out what that process has to be.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 04:08 AM

Dave,
The term 'old' which we found to be used regularly by source singers, is an odd one.
One of our best and most stylish singers, the blind Travelling woman, Mary Delaney had a large repertoire of traditional songs. These included several which had been made by Travellers themselves within say five or ten years of our recording them. They were usually about other Travellers - successful business transactions, selling livestock, playing tricks, personal experiences – in other words, everyday events of Travelling life. Many of these songs referred to people who were still living. She gave us one song and told us, "don't play that to anybody; it's about my cousin and he'll be furious if he hears it". All of these type of song Mary referred to as "old" and on every occasion she (and other singers) did not know who the authors were.
On the other hand, Mary also had a number of American country songs, some dating back to the 1930s and 40s which she described as "modern". Incidentally, She persistently refused to allow us to record her "modern" songs because she said that she only sang them because she had only learned them "to sing in the pub because that's what the lads asked her to sing". She insisted that if we wanted the "old" songs, that's what we were going to get!
As far as I can see the term 'old' refers to a type of song and its subject and function rather than its age.
I agree entirely with Snuffy, Greg and Ron; the tradition is a process and a song has to go through that process before it can wear the tee-shirt.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 01:58 PM

Not to cloud the waters any futher, but here is the American Heritage definition of "traditional" : "Of, relating to, or in accord with tradition: a traditional wedding ceremony."

You would not call a baby a "man" or a "woman", but you would call it "male" or "female".

Face it, a hole can be blown in any arguement that attempts to create a definition of traditional folk music.   It is what it is.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 12:08 PM

Scrump: the reason you shouldn't call your song written today traditional is simple. It may be written in a traditional style, but it hasn't become traditional yet. Same reason you'd be tempting fate in looking at a baby and calling it a man or a woman. That takes time, and there's many a slip twixt cup and lip. The new song you refer to may be brilliant, but that doesn't make it traditional. Time alone can do that, and many people.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Snuffy
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 08:41 AM

Here's my PoV - feel free to shoot at anything you don't agree with.

"Traditional" describes what happens to a song once it is released into the wild, not where it originally came from.

"Anonymous", "old" and "traditional" are not interchangeable terms: a song can be any combination, all or none of these. Songs of unknown authorship are "anonymous". They may have been written yesterday or 500 years ago.

If there is a tradition of singing a particluar song, it may be regarded as "traditional", totally irrespective of whether the author is known or not. If the song has been in some way altered by this process we are on firmer ground in regarding it as "traditional"

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Scrump
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 07:36 AM

Just a few more thoughts on this.

Every song or tune must have been composed by some individual or group of people, however long ago it was. The authorship of many old songs/tunes is unknown simply because nobody bothered to record the authorship for future generations. At the time a song was composed, people hearing it for the first time would know it was (say) a "Joe Bloggs the Fiddler" tune or a "Fred Smith song". The fact that we have lost this information doesn't make it any less true that each of those songs and tunes were composed by a specific person.

There are plenty of songs and tunes where the author is known, but they are nevertheless out of copyright. Are these songs be denied being called "traditional", just because we know the author's identity? If two songs were written in (say) 1820, and the authorship one one of them is known to be "Fred Bloggs", and the other's authorship has been lost, is only the latter allowed to be called "traditional", even though they might be very similar in style?

One day in the distant future (assuming the survival of the human race), the songs being written today might become known as "traditional", if somehow their authorship is lost (seems unlikely but who can tell?).

If a song or tune is written today in a "traditional" style, why can't we call it "traditional", anticipating that it will become so in years to come? Why do we have to wait?

Any thoughts folks?

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 07:23 PM

"Has there, in your experience, ever been an urban audience in the States for singers like Dillard Chandler the Hammonds or Ted Ashlaw -if so, was it just festivals?"

Oh yes. I think you could say that it was the interest of urban audiences to discover the rural music that led to the folk revival. When you look at people like Pete Seeger, Mike Seeger, Ramblin Jack Elliot and others - these were all city kids or people from middle class homes that were trying to learn from source artists.

Everything is in perspective though, I doubt if Ted Ashlaw would have sold out Carnegie Hall if he had the opportunity, but there were enough people interested in his music for record labels like Rounder to release LP's in the 1970's. We aren't talking huge sales, but there was and still is enough interest to generate sales.

What would also happen back then is that people would learn a few songs and then start sharing them, and perhaps one of the "name" artists would record it.

I actually see a lot of younger people starting to do the same. There are groups like the Mammals who will turn a trad tune on its head so that people of our generation might not recognize it, but I sincerely think they are doing the same thing that other generations did before them - learn from the source and take something to make your own.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 06:10 PM

Traditional folk music, is clearly not easy to define.
like beauty and perception it is in the eye of the beholder, and we are wasting our time trying to define it.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 05:26 PM

Ooops.

I'd like to extend that with a thought that came to me after I wrote the quote. I accept wholeheartedly what Ewan and Peggy say there and also that your experience mirrors that.

But we also know that some - let me call them source singers for now - mistakenly say "Now this is a really old song" - when we know it isn't.

Also we know that most of what we call traditional songs can be found on broadsides. I would have thought that broadsides were the "radio" of their day and thus would not be much changed in the same way that songs learnt off the radio aren't. And yet I suspect some broadside ballads seem to have been and others haven't.

I can't think of precise examples so some of this is being dredged up from my memory.

Which may just be fading.

Dave

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 05:18 PM

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 02:01 PM

Dave
I would go along with that; the tendency to repeat exactly as it was heard from the radio was very common with the singers we met.
It's the old story of Walter Scott collecting ballads from James Hogg's mother, who told him, "Now you've written them down you've killed them".
Walter on the other hand learned nearly all his songs from family and neighbours and had picked up his singing style from his uncle, so he sang everything in his uncle's style (we think!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 05:07 AM

The point was he knew some of his songs were of a considerable age and others were not.

Interstingly Jim there is a passage in "Travellers Songs from England and Scotland".....P19)that backs this up very well.

....we would like to comment on the fact the certain songs within the repertoire of a creative singer were not given the same treatment as other songs. For instance both Mr. Ridley and Mrs Hughes sang "Twenty One Years" wth almost none of their characteristic improvisation. "Green grows the Laurel" was rarely decorated by any of our singers. These are semi-popular songs sometimes learned from recordings or from the radio, songs which are understood to exist in one version only. They seem to remain unchanged, unaffected by a singer's creativity, although they are widely sung.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 04:11 AM

From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 01:41 PM

Ron, well said - I agree with what you say in this post.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 02:10 AM

Ron,
Has there, in your experience, ever been an urban audience in the States for singers like Dillard Chandler the Hammonds or Ted Ashlaw -if so, was it just festivals?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,Stuart P
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 11:34 PM

Traditional folk music is what's left over when the good stuff's all been copyrighted.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 07:21 PM

Jim, I think you do have a point about folk clubs.   Here in the U.S. it is a bit different since we really do not have clubs like those that exist on your side of the Atlantic. Here in the U.S., I don't think there is that much emphasis on the type of music that is being performed. Usually promoters will give enough of a description that the audience will know what kind of performer they are going to see.

I guess it is just cultural differences, and as you correctly pointed out - our views are actually very similar.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 06:30 PM

Cap'n
The point was he knew some of his songs were of a considerable age and others were not.
He noted the musical charactaristics in those of HIS songs he regarded as old. He compared them with the musical charactaristics of other songs in HIS repertoire (none of which were written by L and Mc). As far as his songs went he was accurate in his assumption.
As I have said - this is beside the point - he believed there were differences in the songs musically and poetically and he tried to work them out - the music was just a part of his definition.
Ron
The need to put labels on songs only arises when you are trying to promote them (Folk Clubs) or do discuss them.
You may wish to do neither, but this question arose from somebody who wanted to discuss them - he certainly got that. I really don't think there is a huge gulf between our views - neither of us would mistake Dylan for Dillard Chandler.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: danensis
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 04:51 PM

My definition of a traditional song is one we sang in the school hall on a rainy lunchtime.

Believe it or not the pianist was called Miss Tune, and she could rattle off "Men of Harlech" or "The Lincolnshire Poacher" in a unique and inimitable style.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 04:19 PM

Dear Jim,Walter said[nine times out of ten,I can get an old fashioned ten key accordion German tuned. You can nearly tell what is an old song].
so if Walter was only referring to his own repertoire and how he defined it was old ,and not as a litmus code for others to define what was old, whats its relevance. The point is its a flawed way of defining whats old.
because, modern writers can write tunes in the dorian mode[they are modern songs, perhaps written in a traditional style, but they are not old or traditional[ and I love her[[ BEATLES]]]
NORWEGIAN WOOD which appears to have one part in the mixolydian mode and one part in the dorian, it might sound traditional but it is written by Lennon and MCartney. royalties are due to the owners it is modern not traditional.DickMiles

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 03:21 PM

"don't regard either Cohen or Dylan as traditional unless you stretch the word out of shape until it becomes meaningless"

I would not regard Cohen or Dylan as "traditional" in your sense of the word either, because the word is meaningless. I would hate anyone to start calling these artists traditional, but I would say they come from a tradition.

Your mention of the word "navel gazing" - which admittedly I have used as well, indicates a preconceived notion that closes the door on other forms of music. I used to call them singer-songwhiners, until I realized that there ARE some important songs out there.

I personally do not have a need to put a label on these songs, but I do understand that their origin is indeed important. As I am seeing in this thread, when labels are attached to song it will begin to shut out a segment of the audience that could actually learn and enjoy the music if they had more of an open mind.

Labels are great in a kitchen, but if I am eating a slice of cake my senses are not going to stop and read the ingredients first. While it might be benefitial for me to do so for health reasons, I do not want to let my hatred for coconut stand in the way of tasting the cake to see if I like it. If the coconut is too strong, I will spit it out and move on. If it is mixed in just right, like in a pina colada, I just may enjoy it enough to try a second piece.   I am just glad that the cook took the time to figure out the ingredients and proper proportions so that I could enjoy my dessert.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 03:09 PM

Cap'n,
Walter was not wrong; he was using his 'melodeon test' on his own repertoire and as far as I can judge he was pretty accurate.
However, you missed my point; perhaps I didn't make it well enough.
One of the most persistent arguments against discriminating between traditional and non traditional songs is that traditional singers didn't, so why should we? In our experience this is not true. In the cases were we were able to ask singers about their songs, all of them regarded traditional songs differently from others in their repertoire, though they may not use the same terms as we would (Mary Delaney always talked about "my Daddy's songs" - she learned very few from her father). Other Irish singers commonly talked about traditional or come-all-ye's.
Walter, who was in my opinion one of the most important English singers of the twentieth century, (along with fellow East Anglians Harry Cox and Sam Larner) was the most articulate of the singers we recorded and always called his traditional material 'folk songs'. From his notebooks he was discriminating about his family's songs as early as 1947 when he first started writing them down.
This thread seems to be treading water at the moment (hardly surprising – it's nearly run as long as 'The Mousetrap').
I don't know whether we answered Soldier Boy's question to his satisfaction – god knows we tried, and we even avoided being abusive (except me – sorry).
In his last posting he asked a question about our specifying the songs we would regard as traditional folk – and I added the suggestion that we gave our reasons. If people feel this is not worth doing I am not sure where we go from here; maybe we should quit while we are ahead, before we run completely out of steam
Jim Carroll
PS Ron, can't speak for the States, but it's certainly not been the case in the UK if my recent experiences with the clubs are anything to go by - out-of-tune singing of anything from pop songs of various eras of the 19th and 20th centuries to navel gazing; on several occasions performed by 'singers' reading them from crib sheets.
Sorry, don't regard either Cohen or Dylan as traditional unless you stretch the word out of shape until it becomes meaningless.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 01:41 PM

"I believe that thousands of people, myself included, walked away from the folk clubs because the labeling system broke down and we no longer knew what we were going to hear when we attended one."

That very well may be true. Still, it might have been for the best because the music has never been better. Jim, I would make a case that 40 or 50 years ago when those thousands of people started attending the clubs for the first time, they were responding to an increased commercial perception to the music. Here in the U.S. it was actually "cool" and "hip" to walk into a coffeehouse or spend a Sunday afternoon sharing music at Washington Square Park. When the folk era - or should I say folk error - ended, the music was left in the same shape that it was found.

While I understand that the statement bothers you, I have to respectully say that I do believe that many people spend to much time thinking about the music and missing the pleasures that can be derived from it.

Please understand, I am not saying that it wrong to study, collect and preserve the music. I think the opposite is true. It is important, and fun, to learn about the music and try to understand it in context.   This is highl enjoyable and there is a wealth of beauty to be gained by listening to what you and others term "traditional". Believe me, I do understand and respect your definition.

What gives me "ill tempered outbursts" is when I hear people dismiss contemporary music just because it is contemporary. There are many people that will make statements as if it is a badge of honor to walk out of folk clubs because they are hearing a singer-songwriter. No one forces anyone to take a liking to a music that does not appeal, but I think it is wrong to show disrespect to another persons art.

I may think that singing sea chanties are a silly pastime for landlubbers, or to hear college students who never left the suburbs singing songs of coal miners leaves a bad taste. But no, I think people learn something from by doing just that.

To me, "folk" music has been a way of learning about the past or learning about the people who made the music. I'll be damned if I am going to let a textbook definition stop me from learing something from a songwriter from Texas who happens to be writing a song about a personal event.

This morning on the radio I heard a host talking to Judy Collins. He said something to the effect - " it is wonderful to be able have a life while artists like Leonard Cohen are walking the earth.". To be able to experience music from writers like Dylan, Cohen, John Prine and so many others IS a contemporary TRADITION.   

You might not be attending folk clubs these days, but you can rest assured that there are thousands who have replaced you and are enjoying the songs that are being created today.   No, it will not fit a textbook definition, but it doesn't have to.

Live and let live.