BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?

Subject: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 12:48 PM

Who are "The Dickens," and why should we beat them? Or use them as a universal standard of measurement as in "Beats the Dickens out of me." Or are they evil spirits that possess our bodies, and have to be exorcised?

And what in the world is a doormouse? Do they work at mouse hotels? And why are they so quiet that we say "As quiet as a doormouse?" What do they know that they're refusing to talk about?

Our language is full of oddities that make no sense to me. Doesn't stop me from using them.

Now, where did I leave that left-handed monkey wrench?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Becca72
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 12:55 PM

Seems that "The Dickens" also are painful. I was often told as a child that something "hurt like the Dickens".

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 12:55 PM

Dormouse

Probably an appriate name as they spend so much time sleeping - but not always in teapots!

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 12:56 PM

Dickens = Devil, for people who thought it was a bit dodgy to use the latter word. Rather like saying "Sugar" instead of "Shite" when you bang your thumb with a hammer. Or "For crying out loud" instead of...

And it's dormouse

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 12:59 PM

How about "As cute as a doormouse (dormouse)? Dormice are certainly alot cuter than a button.

And by the way, have you ever seen a monkey use a monkey wrench?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 01:03 PM

The Dickens are the keepers of the "Livin' Shit." Many years ago it was decided by prudish fuckwits that some words were "dirty" or crude or offensive or something. People who wanted to remain in polite society then substituted related words for the correct ones. The Dickens family of Portsmouth had long been the keepers of the ultimate pile of livin' shit so it was only natural that the name Dickens became the polite substitute.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 01:05 PM

Monkey Wrench
Charles Moncky invented the monkey wrench around 1858.

Ratchet Wrench
Robert Owen, Jr (1881 - 1956) invented the ratchet wrench. Owen received a patent on September 9, 1913. U. S. Patent number 1,072,980.

well now you learn something new everyday

and................we're not the only ones it seems

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 01:27 PM

I don't think the idea was that "Devil" was a dirty word, but rather that using the name might draw his attention on you, and you don't wan that. Superstition, not prudery.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 01:34 PM

And I suppose Chunky Monkey ice cream was named after Mister Monkey, too. Apparently he had a weight problem. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 01:37 PM

No Jerry.....The ice cream was named after one of our cats. a block-like hulking B&W tuxedo we call Chunky Monkey or occasionally Roamin.

You don't know anything do you?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 01:44 PM

And this brings up another one of those world-shaking questions:

"Cute as a bug's ear."

Just how cute is a bug's ear, anyway? I can't say I've ever actually seen a bug's ear, so it's not easy to make a comparison.

If one were to discover that a bug's ear is not cute at all, that could make a fairly good article for the National Enquirer.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 02:14 PM

"Cute as a bug's ear."

You made that one up didn't you? No? Blimey!

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 02:30 PM

You finally discovered my true nature, Spaw. I don' know nuthin'. Your post reminded me of one of Timbuk Three's best songs (at least the title is great.) It's about a drug dealer who sells drugs from his car:

"Reverend Jack and His Roamin' Cadillac church"

It's almost as good as a line from another song of theirs :It was lust at first sight."

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 02:31 PM

Ya' know Don, YOUR post then brings up something else! What if the thing changes in meaning? Perhaps you find that really a bug's ear is NOT cute or I wonder what would happen if one day they found that rat asses would cure, say, AIDS or cancer or something? At that point you might want to think about whether or not you DO give a rat's ass.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 02:31 PM

And no, Kevin: "Cute as a bug's ear" is a familiar saying over here.

I suppose there are variants like "As cute as a chicken's lips."

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 02:49 PM

LOL Jerry.....That IS a great title!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 03:14 PM

Bug's ear...chicken's lips...

We don't have luxuries like those back here.

How about "as much use as a fart in a bottle"?

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Becca72
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 03:17 PM

"flyin' around like a fart in a mitten" was one I never understood...who the hell farts in their mittens?? if you do, you're not wearing 'em correctly...

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 03:17 PM

Or a turd in a punch bowl?

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 03:24 PM

I think that these figures of speech are intentionally designed to include a certain amount of cognitive dissonance, which makes them more attention-getting. "Dumber than a box of hammers", for example. How often has anyone seen a box of hammers, unless you're in the trade?



A

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 03:25 PM

A couple of my favorites -- from Kendall, "laughing like a dog with a mouthful of bumblebees." And from my favorite Irish writer (also common in the UK) "laughing like a drain", one of the most vivid images I've heard.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 03:30 PM

I have. I have a box of hammers in my workshop right this very minute. And ideas of "cute" change, so what's "cuter than a bug's ear" today might be "uglier than eight miles of home-made sin" tomorrow, and the upstanding citizen who made the observation could be lower'n a snake's belly in a wagon rut, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 03:34 PM

"Sick as a parrot" is the traditional one football folk use following defeat and so forth. I don't know if that comes from Monty Python or the other way round.

It's paired with "Over the moon", for when it's a matter of victory.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 03:40 PM

'Scuse the scatalogical language here, but one that's always had me buffaloed is "Cuter than all billy shit."

The general concept doesn't strike me as all that esthetic. But then, there are unanswered questions, such as who or what is "billy shit?" Is Billy Shit a person? And if so, is Billy Shit male or female (I've known a couple of women who went by the nickname "Billy" or "Billie"). And in either case, is Billy (or Billie) Shit really cute? But if Billy (or Billie) Shit is not a person, then what, exactly, does the expression refer to?

[Well, wothehell, it's a slow day at the Skunk Works.]

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: gnu
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 03:50 PM

More fun than a barrel of monkeys.... personally, I would be frightened - certainly not amused.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 04:57 PM

Billy, for reasons lost in history, is sometimrs used as an intensifier in profanities, or to personify any notable trait in a person. Billy Whizz (amphetamine),Billy no mates (a friendless person) billy (a bong or a bag of pot), moaning/hurting like billy-o (extremely), billy can, billy tea and billylid (Aus. rhyming slang for a kid)...billy-bashing, BIlly Bullshit, billy bob (any white trash), billy big pants (a harmless dork)...the list goes on and on .

A

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 05:22 PM

Makes ya wanta think carefully before naming the kids. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 05:38 PM

Ever met a guy named Upton Charles? I have, and for obvious reasons he goes by Charles. I won't give his last name.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 05:43 PM

I remember being in the college library in 1969. A young hippy chick came to the counter and asked for a good book. The librarian asked if she liked Dickens.

"Dunno, man", she replied "never been to one..."

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 05:48 PM

"Do you like Kipling?"

"I dunno. How do you kipple?"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 06:06 PM

Does "Upton" have some dodgy meaning then? The only person I've ever heard of with that name was Upton Sinclair, and he didn't do so badly - lived to the age of 90 and had more than 90 books published,

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 06:33 PM

There actually was a stuffed toy animal called a "Dicken" on the market about 20 years back. It was a cross between a dog and a chicken. I bought one for my daughter's sixth or seventh birthday.

It wasn't much of a gift, but it was a lot of fun watching people's reaction when I told them I'd given my daughter a dicken for her birthday. Reactions like, "Damn, Bruce! Isn't she a little young for that?" were typical.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Joybell
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 06:58 PM

Speaking of cute - I like to watch "Dr. Phil" just in case he says, "ain't she just as cute as a speckled pup!"
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 07:05 PM

I though it was a box of spanners, not hammers. Spanners makes more sense, as having a large collection of them is normal...

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: bobad
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 07:22 PM

Isn't that a bag of Spaniards? as in "A Spaniard in the Works"

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 07:36 PM

But we don't have spanners in the US, Bunn. We call 'em "wrenches". I'm sure that if we did call them "spanners" we would have kept the phrase intact, but "a box of wrenches" just doesn't flow off the tongue with the same ease.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 08:02 PM

We have bith soanners and wrenches here in Engkand, butb they aren't the same thing - see here

For example: "Although they resemble adjustable spanners, the basic difference is that the jaws of a wrench are serrated, enabling them to grip and turn objects such as lengths of pipe. "

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 08:38 PM

Billy shit sounds like it comes rom billy goats.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 09:56 PM

We have wrenches, and monkey-wrenches or pipe wrenches. We also distinguish them as box-end or ring-end wrenches, or adjustable wrenches or F-head wrenches.

But around these parts the colloquialism has been dumber than a box of hammers or a box of rocks.

If we said "dumber than a box of spanners" someone would think we were castigating the abusers of e-mail.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 09:59 PM

This thread has drifted a bit....I've always been interested in the derivations of sayings and understood that the origional form of words was "who IN Dickens are you?....do you think you are?....was that? ect, was a reference to the huge number of varied characters in the novels of Charles Dickens.
I would guess the saying originated in the nineteenth century.

Sorry to show my pedantic colours .....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 10:34 PM

Hey, Ake: Thanks for that. I wondered whether the saying might have something to do with Charles Dickens.

Actually this thread is about any old sayings that no longer make a lot of sense.

Thanks for bringing it back to my first example.

The proof is in the pudding. (Exactly WHERE in the pudding is it?)

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: bobad
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 10:36 PM

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 11:00 PM

LOL: You got that right, bobad... I'd forgotten the whole saying.

When your memory goes, forget it! (courtesy of Art Thieme)

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 11:20 PM

Ake, I am dubious that this saying has much to do with Charles. I'd be interested in any subtantiation of the idea.

The short OED says :

dickens
/dikkinz/

• noun informal used to express annoyance or surprise when asking questions: what the dickens is going on?

— ORIGIN a euphemism for devil.

but it doesn't give the full word history you find in the unabridged.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 03:31 AM

"Decimate" used to mean

'kill 1 in 10 as an example to the others' -

now ill-educated jouornalists have turned it into

'kill nearly eveybody in some sort of sensational disaster'...

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 03:44 AM

From Shakespeare's "The Merry Wives of Windsor", Act 3 Scene 2:

FORD

    Where had you this pretty weather-cock?

MISTRESS PAGE

    I cannot tell what the dickens his name is my
    husband had him of. What do you call your knight's
    name, sirrah?

Inverse euphemism: my mother remembered being smacked for saying "Fatty Arbuckle".

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 08:03 AM

Paul Burke -

Fatty Arbuckle was the victim (or criminal according to some) in a notorious criminal prosecution, with the result that for some, in his era and after, his name was a filthy word. Possibly not a euphemism, just a morality issue.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: ranger1
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 09:15 AM

Well, one of my favorite saying is "numb as a hake." I always wondered if hakes were the idiots of the fish world. Why isn't it numb as a flounder? Or a halibut? Kendall, you want to enlighten me on this one?

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 10:43 AM

Unless Doctor Who got involved in this, Shakespeare's use of the expression rules out any Charles Dickens origin. But how did Shakespeare come up with it?

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 01:37 PM

Paul and McGrath....Looks like I've been mistaken....didn't know of the Shakespeare connection.
"The Devil" seems to be the key to this.
People round here still use ..."Who the devil is that" ect

Every day we learn something new....... or old....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 01:42 PM

Amos.... Thanks for the "Devilish Origin"
Jerry ..Sorry to mislead, but we've both learned something....love these old sayings there are loads here in Scotland and most of them make sense ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 02:06 PM

'Sallright, Ake: I'll be a monkey's Uncle.

Why not a monkey's brother-in-law?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 03:24 PM

Partridge's dictionary of slang, with some editing, gives the following:

The DEVIL , the DEUCE esp. in exclamations. late 16C. - 20 C. (currency). Shakespeare, Gay,... (old examples). In origin a euphemistic evasion for devil ; either an attrition from devilkin or dicken or dickon (the last two are ords quoted from Ernest Weekley's Etymological Dictionary of Modern Englsih which I haven't seen.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 03:24 PM

words not ords!

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 05:20 PM

The Dickens are the great great great great grandparents of my gorgeous friend George.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 05:46 PM

Brewers Dictionary of Phrase and Fable suggests that "Dickens" as used by Shakespeare was a substitute for Nick, the being the term for the devil (as it still is - Old Nick). Which rather implies that a kind of rhyming slang was in use in the time of Shakespeare.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 08:18 PM

Partridge gives "Nick" , in this sense, as of later, 18C. origin.
Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 09:02 PM

The oxford etmylogical dictionary concurs, dickens is 16th century substitution for devil.

Fatty Arbuckle may be objectionable as due to its initials, F A. Fanny Adams, or Sweet Fanny Adams was a 19th century murdere, but her name has evolved into a substitute for Fuck all, due to the initals.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 03:31 PM

Or of course Football Association. The sweet FA.
..................
So what does Partridge suggest for "dickens" as used by Shakespeare?

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 04:42 PM

I here I thought all along that they were talking about Ralph and Mary Lou Dickens.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 04:54 PM

McG of H:

- derived from "devilkin" by atttrition (I like that!) seems to be Partridges's best guess. See my earlier post.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Barb'ry
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 06:19 PM

What about the north of England expression, 'did he heckers like', meaning, he didn't. Heck is obviously a euphemism for hell, but how did it get to heckers like? The mind boggles - and what's a boggle?
Barb'ry

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: autolycus
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 06:53 PM

'Sick as a parrot' cos parrots prone to psittacosis.

   The phrases 'sick as a parrot ' and
'over the moon' became current around
1978, and there had been a psitt......
outbreak in about 1973 in West Africa.


   The 'over the moon' bit might ultimately
derive from the 'Hey diddle diddle' nursery
rhyme.

See further in , for example, Nigel
Rees' Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins.
Many such books have (suggested) origins
for any number of phrases.




    Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Joe_F
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 11:45 PM

Bugs' ears are not cute; they are slick.

I have never heard "like a fart in a mitten". I have, however, heard "drifting around like a fart in a marketplace". That, I believe, comes from Yiddish, and is a variant of "like a fart in a pickle barrel", alluding to the tortuous path of a fermentation bubble as it makes its way up in a barrel of pickles. It Yiddish it is "vi a farts im roisl", and according to Maurice Samuel, it was a play on "vi a frantsoiz in Rusland" (like a Frenchman in Russia), alluding to the stragglers from Napoleon's army.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 03:37 AM

Heck is in Yorkshire, between Leeds and Hull.

Heck as like probably. Na then!

Subject: RE: BS: Who are 'The Dickens'?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 01:26 PM

I am sure over the moon is a century older than the 1970's, at least. In fact WIki[pedia implie sit derives from "Hey Diddle Diddle", which dates fromt he reign of Elizabeth I.


Excerpt:

It is likely that this poem is a satire of a scandal during the time of Queen Elizabeth I. The cat is Elizabeth I and the dog is Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester, whom she once referred to as her 'lap dog'. It is also speculated that the 'dish' is a server at the royal court, whereas the 'spoon' refers to a taste-tester.



A