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BS: Worst President Ever???...
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Subject: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Bobert Date: 20 Feb 07 - 07:47 PM Okay, I think its safe to assume the the united Sates has not been blessed with too many great presidents... Might of fact, it has had more than its share of crummy ones... Yeah, folks always think of the present and, yeah, the current one certainly is in the runnin' as the worst but, hey, the US has had to suffer thru the likes of Polk, Lincoln ( my vote as worst), Grant, Hayes, Wilson, Taft, Nixon, Bush I and now Bush II... So, who gets yer vote and why??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Bert Date: 20 Feb 07 - 08:07 PM I dunno whether it's B2 or B1 for having him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: kendall Date: 20 Feb 07 - 08:54 PM HArding, Grant and Jackson. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: mack/misophist Date: 20 Feb 07 - 08:56 PM Why isn't Reagan on the list? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Ebbie Date: 20 Feb 07 - 09:36 PM Are we talking about presidents who accomplished the least? Or about presidents who did the most harm? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Ron Davies Date: 20 Feb 07 - 11:27 PM Bobert, I think you might get some argument if you stated that Lincoln had started a needless war. But there's absolutely no doubt that W has done so in Iraq. That puts him somewhere close to the top in your competition here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: able Date: 21 Feb 07 - 03:10 AM There is a book that lists the ten worst presidents Warren G Harding usually gets bottom honours, but I think Billy blow job is about to displace him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: alanabit Date: 21 Feb 07 - 03:27 AM Some Americans seem to think that undeclared blow jobs cause greater human misery than wars. This can give rise to cultural misunderstandings elsewhere... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Barry Finn Date: 21 Feb 07 - 05:01 AM No misunderstanding here. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: kendall Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:43 AM I can not imagine anyone thinking that Willy's lying about an affair is more serious than what the moron has done. What kind of values does that require? The fact is, Clinton presided over 8 years of unprecedented prosperity while the moron has run us into incredible debt, caused the deaths of thousands of innocent people, and now, in spite of the clear message we sent him, wants to escalate his illegal war! Who can explain this madness? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 21 Feb 07 - 08:01 AM Nixon gets my vote ... he was president in our lifetime ... I'm amazed just how much we have forgotten in such a short time ... if we had not forgotten, I think history may not have been/or is currently being repeated. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: GUEST Date: 21 Feb 07 - 08:03 AM Bobert, how about explaining why you voted for George Bush? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Arkie Date: 21 Feb 07 - 08:35 AM I can't speak for Bobert but the following do it for me: Ill advised war with Iraq Assault on the Environment Assault on Health Care Assault on Retirement Income Escalation of National Debt International opinion of United States at all time low Failures of diplomacy (or should that be failure to use diplomacy) Weakening economy I am getting tired. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: GUEST,ib48 Date: 21 Feb 07 - 12:05 PM probably the next one |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: kendall Date: 21 Feb 07 - 12:42 PM How about when he was telling the soldiers what a heck of a job they were doing and at the same time slashing veterans benefits? Nixon was a very good president. But, he was a horrible human being. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Bobert Date: 21 Feb 07 - 12:54 PM For the record, I didn't vote for George Bush senior or junior... This thread is just an attempt to get folks to think beyond the here and now, which I'll admit, is hard to do... An', Ebbie, I'll leave your question of harm v. do-littleness, up to one's interpretation... 'An explanation... My dislike of Lincoln has absolutely nuthin' to do with slavery, which was on its way out anyway, but his stubborness in not makin' a greater effort to prevent the War-Between-the-States... A great man would have made a greater effort... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 21 Feb 07 - 04:38 PM Whatever 'good' Nixon did is overshadowed by Watergate, his compulsive wire tapping, his illegal investigations on anyone thought to be subversive to his regime (his famous Enemies List, hell he even talked about having columnist Jack Anderson assassinated), the break in to steal Daniel Ellsberg's pshychiatric files, his lying, his dity tricks, the power bombing of North Vietnam, his advancement of U.S. troops into Cambodia, his responsibility in the assassination and overthrow of Chile's socialist leader Allende, and support of the subsequent tyrant Pinochet. If people had not forgotten the Nixon dark side, I'm sure there would have been more checks and balances in place to prevent it happening again (with Bush). How could his evilness have been forgotten ... do people wish to have these current dark days of the Bush regime forgotten? biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 21 Feb 07 - 04:55 PM Nixon should have ended the Vietnam conflict early in his first term of office .... the U.S. was already tired of that dreadful burden by then ... much like they are tired and burdened by the Iraq war as of now ... think of the lives he could have saved (American and Vietnamese). No ... I certainly don't think he was a very good president at all. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Riginslinger Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:02 PM I'll continue to think Reagan was the worst president, at least in my lifetime. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:34 PM My vote would be for Reagan...by a whisker...because of: 1. His foreign policy maneuvers. 2. His encouragement of massive fiscal irresponsibility in the 80's. 3. His general mental incompetence. 4. His very nearly getting us into World War III (in my opinion) by pressuring the Russians very hard. We were lucky that Gorbachev was on the other side, and not inclined toward such rash and aggressive an attitude in international give and take. Was he likable in a number of respects? Yeah, probably. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: GUEST,282RA Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:55 PM >>My dislike of Lincoln has absolutely nuthin' to do with slavery, which was on its way out anyway, but his stubborness in not makin' a greater effort to prevent the War-Between-the-States... A great man would have made a greater effort...<< My criticism of Lincoln is that he didn't wipe out all Southerners. Had he done so, a huge cesspool of rightwing assholes would not exist today and we wouldn't be in the mess we are in. I say we attack the fucking South again and this time finish the job proper. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: GUEST,ilam Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:16 PM Its got to be Bush junior, after 9/11 turnrd worldwide sympathy into world wide hatred in a matter of weeks. Ian |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:23 PM Well, I think Bush definitely has a good shot at edging Reagan out by the end of his 2nd term. We'll have to wait and see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: dianavan Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:30 PM Its a toss-up between Nixon and Bush Jr. Number 6 is right, if we had remembered all of the crimes Nixon committed while president, Bush would never have been elected. Maybe once but never twice. If you lived under Nixon, an atmosphere of fear was everywhere. Bush has set a similar tone. Although I despise what they have done to other nations, its what they have done to the U.S.A. that is an even bigger crime. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Riginslinger Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:46 PM And Reagan happily rolled over on all of his friends during the McCarthy era witch-hunts, and then conveniently changed parties. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Bobert Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:56 PM Well, yeah, Nixon certainly was a slime-ball... I remember in the '68 campaign he said he had a "secret plan" for ended the Vietnam War... Turns out that plan was for Congress to pull the plug on it after another 30,000 of my brothers were killed there... Yeah, Nixon didn't have any particular love for integrity but worst???? Not in my book... Just a terrible, dark, little messed up man... Raygun??? Yeah, he was purdy bad, too... Akmost bankrupted the country in the same way that Bush the Junior has done... Same exact policies... Lincoln still gets my vote.... 'er not... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: nosluap57 Date: 21 Feb 07 - 09:55 PM since 1957: worst? Carter. 2nd worst? W greatest: Reagan most overrated: Clinton |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Don Firth Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:26 PM Since 1957 Best: Carter. Worst: George W. Bush. 2nd worst: Reagan. 3rd worst: Nixon. 4th worst: George H. W. Bush. Pretty good, but not great (he left a budget surplus): Clinton. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Don Firth Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:29 PM Revision. Best: John F. Kennedy. 2nd best: Carter 3rd best: Johnson (social programs, not for Vietnam War) The rest as is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Desdemona Date: 22 Feb 07 - 08:02 AM Reagan (my #2 pick) was evil, but Dubyah is evil and STUPID, so our current commander in chief gets my vote. Besides, Reagan at least has the virtue of being dead. ~D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Scrump Date: 22 Feb 07 - 09:54 AM Let me guess... are his initials GWB? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Feb 07 - 10:34 AM Of course the Reagan people got the right-wing-religious-wakkos organized into a political group, and those were the pin-heads that got George w. elected both times. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: John Hardly Date: 22 Feb 07 - 10:45 AM I think that when historians look back at this era without the baggage of personal bias, I believe they'll look at both Reagan and Clinton as reasonably okay presidents who didn't get in the way of (and greatly benefitted from) the technological boom that created more widespread wealth than any other event or factor in history ever had). But that tech boom has begun to level off -- the inflation that it naturally spurred has caused the real increase in income to finally mean little enought that it's no longer a factor. But I can say, even as a guy who voted for him in the election that he lost (ha ha ha!!!), but not in the last election...I think George W. Bush will go down in history as one of the worst. He certainly caused more damage. He almost single-handedly castrated the "conservative revolution" -- killing the Republican majority at the same time. Simultaneously, he infuriated the left to such an extent that they became more reflexively anti-american than at any time since the Viet Nam war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Feb 07 - 02:39 PM Actually, I think if mankind is going to survive, he will have to march away from superstition. If he doesn't move away from superstition, he won't survive and it won't matter. If he does move away from superstition, Reagan will become to look more like a societal anchor and less like an inspiration. I think Reagan did more damage in the sense that, in order to form the coalition that his handlers wanted he made political deals that eventually resulted in the election of GWB. In that sense, GWB is just an extension of Reagan. It's just one great big political disaster. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: GUEST,DocJ Date: 22 Feb 07 - 03:14 PM BBC History magazine had a poll on the 'Greatest Prime Minister' recently. The organiser of the poll - although left of the centre - put Thatcher well up on the list. Aparently in this context'greatest' meant 'had the greatest effect.' Using that meaning of the word then A. Hitler was the greatest leader ever! A book of lists I browsed somewhere had a list of the worst person ever year by year; it went: ...Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Nixon, Nixon, Nixon, Hitler etc... DocJ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Schantieman Date: 22 Feb 07 - 03:29 PM No doubt that both Thatcher and Hitler were great leaders. Not such nice people perhaps, and some slightlyunpopular ideas, but great at leading! Don't know much about Nixon - except that he got caught. As far as U.S. Presidents go, I reckon you'd have to go some way to beat the present incumbent as the worst ever. S |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Desdemona Date: 22 Feb 07 - 04:03 PM Worth revisiting in re: "the great communicator"...or was that (would-be) "exterminator"? http://www.syrculturalworkers.com/feature/HaveYouSeenThis/HYSTrembReagan.html ~D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Feb 07 - 04:04 PM I receive e-mails from Sinn Fein from time to time, and they market a number of things Irish. One of their best selling items, they say on their website are "I Still Hate Margaret Thatcher" t-shirts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Don Firth Date: 22 Feb 07 - 05:06 PM ". . . he [George W. Bush] infuriated the left to such an extent that they became more reflexively anti-american than at any time since the Viet Nam war." It seems difficult for those of the Right-Wing bent to get their heads around the concept that if a liberal objects to the course that a particular administration has set the country on, that this means that they are "anti-American." Or that, in such a case, they are "reflexively anti-American." I cite the quotation that is often seen on bumper-stickers attached to the backs of cars owned by Right-Wing Super-Patriots, "My country, right or wrong!" Let us put that in proper context: Interesting phrase. Synonymous with gung-ho, chauvinistic nationalism. The Quotations section of Microsoft's Bookshelf gives the background of the phrase and a hint of the debate it has aroused:The liberal—or any other citizen, for that matter—who objects to the illegal and immoral actions of a particular administration displays genuine patriotism. A far cry from the thoughtless flag-waving passivity of the Right-Winger who, in those circumstances, attacks liberals as being "anti-American." Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: pdq Date: 22 Feb 07 - 05:40 PM Dear Don Firth, You can dump a bigger load of crap than a constipated elephant on Ex-Lax. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Greg B Date: 22 Feb 07 - 05:49 PM One surmises that the potential to be a 'Great President' and 'electability' are becoming increasingly mutually exclusive. To put it another way, the potential to be a Great President[tm] is such a rare quality and electability is now such a rare quality (since the politics of personal destruction has become the norm) that finding the two of them in one person is statistically highly improbable. Then, to find someone with those two qualities who actually WANTS the damned job--- well... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Desdemona Date: 22 Feb 07 - 06:29 PM Dear Don Firth, Well said; I was struggling with a response to the same post, but you addressed it beautifully. As an American citizen blessed with intelligence *and* free will, I thank you. ~D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Feb 07 - 06:32 PM Spoken like a true fanatic, pdq. You would have been valued highly in the ranks of past loyalty-based organizations such as the Wehrmacht, the Imperial Japanese Navy, the Roman legions, the Spanish Inquisition, the KGB....or even present ones such as the CIA, the Taliban, and Hezbollah. NEVER question higher authority. Just obey orders. The sure route to promotion and advancement in any highly authoritative $ySStem. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: pdq Date: 22 Feb 07 - 06:45 PM Liberal Hawk, So anyone who questions the prevailing Liberal hatemongering and character assasination is a right-wing nut, Nazi, bigot (go ahead, fill in your favorite perjorative)? Don Firth's post has no facts or reason, just mis-direction and name-calling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Feb 07 - 06:59 PM Feel free to question anything you want, pdq. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: pdq Date: 22 Feb 07 - 07:03 PM I always have and always will. Your permission is not needed, but have a nice day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Feb 07 - 07:06 PM That wasn't a giving of permission. It was merely one free being giving courtesy to another's right to the same freedom of being. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: bubblyrat Date: 22 Feb 07 - 07:30 PM Here in Britain , you would be hard pressed to find ANYONE who has even the remotest idea of how your election process actually works, as it seems more like something from a Davey Crockett film than anything resembling a truly democratic selection of a leader. Most British people are of the opinion that you Americans get the Presidents that you deserve. If they are as bad as you say, then why don"t you rise up and overthrow them ?? The Mexicans would !! You have all got guns, haven"t you ??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Feb 07 - 07:56 PM bubblyrat--Actually, I don't think the Mexicans would. If they would things would be a lot better in Mexico. Also, I think there are a growing number of Americans who are beginning to wonder if their elections are fairly held and appropriately counted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: John Hardly Date: 22 Feb 07 - 07:58 PM Patriotism? We have do go down that spiral path again? I've never met a liberal yet who was proudly patriotic. To a person, when it really comes down to talking about patriotism, liberals will generally get around to equating it with "Jingoism" and eschew it. Liberalism cannot bring itself to even think, much less talk about ANYTHING about which America is superior. Even the notion that we are good about or for anything brings sneers to their cynical lips. I was and am anti-war (the Iraq debacle) too. But it was in watching the left's reaction to it, despite my being against it too, that reconfirmed my sense that the Left is not patriotic. By definition, they do not even like America for what it is. By definition they are progressive and wish to change America. It does not suit them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Deckman Date: 22 Feb 07 - 08:02 PM The worst, above all, is our present President. BECAUSE ... he went against my advice. Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Desdemona Date: 22 Feb 07 - 08:04 PM Elections? We have elections?? Oh, right...it's just that they're not always played for keepsies! ~D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Feb 07 - 08:05 PM I'm proudly patriotic to Canada, and I'm thought to be quite "liberal" by some. I personally know any number of liberals who are proudly patriotic Americans. Of course they wish to change America. Conservatives also wish to change America in a number of ways, and every time they get people into high office, they DO change it. ;-) Everybody wants to see something change in the society as it exists now. And that's perfectly normal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: pdq Date: 22 Feb 07 - 08:10 PM John Hardly, Thank you for that statement. Proud that you have chosen to stay here at Mudcat and present a voice of civility and reason. There are many more members (mostly former members) who agree with you but have chosen not to join the mudslinging nasties. They have found more positive things to do with their time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: dianavan Date: 22 Feb 07 - 08:35 PM The reason that liberals promote change is that they care. Its also because they have the flexibility to cope with change. They are not afraid to make a few sacrifices if it benefits society as a whole. They understand that to think beyond the box is the way to creatively solve problems. Conservatives are full of fear. They are afraid of change because it might disturb their comfort zone, they might have to sacrifice something. They are dogmatic because it doesn't require thinking. Its easier to follow orders than to problem solve effectively. The only way to survive is to embrace change. There is nothing more American than that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Bobert Date: 22 Feb 07 - 09:12 PM Well, yeah, d... Now who gets yer vote as the worst??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Feb 07 - 09:19 PM Dianavan, have you read the book "Confessions of an Economic Hitman", by John Perkins? If not, I recommend you give it a look. It's at Chapters. I don't think the real problems arising in America and throughout the world are caused by either "conservatives" or "liberals". I think they are caused by enormous corporate business interests which are manipulating governments and societies.....not because they are in a giant conspiracy. They're not. But simply because their very philosophy in itself leads inevitably in a destructive direction. In other words, it's happening not through deliberate conspiracy, not through consciously evil intent, but through the natural evolution of a self-perpetuating and self-enlarging business system that is extremely short-sighted and extremely narrow in its objectives...which are simply to increase corporate profits and to enlarge market share and control of key resources. (and that is directly in opposition to small-scale capitalism as it once existed. It wipes out small-scale capitalism wherever it goes.) That multinational corporate business system has no loyalty to any nation. Therefore it is facile to simply blame the USA for what's going on. The USA is in the grip of multinational forces that are presently using American firepower to achieve their financial objectives, because American firepower is simply the biggest and best firepower presently available. The USA may lose the war in Iraq, but the private corporations who provide the weapons, services, contractors, and technical aid will win it...regardless what happens! People are wasting their time bickering across the conservative/liberal divide, in my opinion. It's a gigantic red herring, and it avoids the real issues. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Bobert Date: 22 Feb 07 - 09:27 PM I haven't read it, LH, but I heard him talk on Amy Goodman's Democracy Now show and it was mind-boggling... I mean, I knew I was a leftest socialist type but this guy surprised the heck outta me... Very scarey stuff... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: dianavan Date: 22 Feb 07 - 09:42 PM Worst? George Bush because he's evil and stupid. Little Hawk - I believe that your last paragraph is particularly true. Somehow it came through the ether when I was reading Major Barbara but I'll try to remember to pick up the book by John Perkins. I have known for a long time that it is the sale of weapons and the profit that is generated by war that creates so much suffering in the world. I agree that to lump people into groups and pit them against each other is futile. I was just answering John Hardly and pdq with definitions that they might be able to understand. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: pdq Date: 22 Feb 07 - 09:58 PM (about) Confessions of an Economic Hit Man by John Perkins Some of the book's critics have questioned whether Perkins makes a significant contribution to the debate on global finance and the development of the Third World. For instance, columnist Mark Engler of In These Times, has written that "the actual content of Perkins' admissions proves distressingly thin". According to the New York Times, "the book's popularity seems driven more by the mix of cloak-and-dagger atmospherics and Mr. Perkins's Damascene conversion" than by insight into "the larger issue of America's role in emerging economies." Columnist Sebastian Mallaby of the Washington Post reacted sharply to Perkins' book: "This man is a frothing conspiracy theorist, a vainglorious peddler of nonsense, and yet his book, Confessions of an Economic Hit Man, is a runaway bestseller." Mallaby, who spent 13 years writing for the London Economist and wrote a favorable biography of World Bank chief James Wolfensohn, holds that Perkins' conception of international finance is "largely a dream" and that his "basic contentions are flat wrong." Other sources, including articles in the New York Times and Boston Magazine as well as a press release issued by the United States Department of State, have referred to a lack of documentary or testimonial evidence to corroborate the claim that the NSA was involved in his hiring to Chas T. Main. In addition, the author of the State Department release states that the NSA "is a cryptological (codemaking and codebreaking) organization, not an economic organization" and that its missions do not involve "anything remotely resembling placing economists at private companies in order to increase the debt of foreign countries." Perkins's first boss at Chas. T. Main, Einar Greve, initially declared to journalists that "basically [Perkins's] story is true" and that "what John's book says is, there was a conspiracy to put all these countries on the hook, and that happened". Subsequently, he denied Perkins's allegation that he ever worked as a liaison with the NSA and contradicted other claims made in Perkins's book, stating that Perkins "has convinced himself that a lot of this stuff is true." Critics, including Sebastian Mallaby and the author of the release by the State Department, have also referred to public remarks Perkins has made, as well as previously published books. His published works include books about South American tribal culture that deal with shamanistic techniques for creating self-empowerment, techniques to enhance health and longevity, as well as first hand accounts of metaphysical "travelling" through visions & dream wanderings". Mark Engler questions Perkins's "New Age leanings," and accuses him of "delving into a type of essentialism that, thankfully, has been long banished from university anthropology departments." The State Department release refers to a presentation at a bookstore, where Perkins allegedly asserted that the US Government was involved in the assassinations of John and Robert F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King Jr., John Lennon and several US senators who died in plane crashes, and expressed concern regarding inconsistencies in the US investigation of the events surrounding the September 11 attacks of 2001. The State Department release therefore identifies Perkins as a conspiracy theorist... quote: Some people are sick and tired from hearing about this book. Perkins is in the 'tinfoil hat' crowd. Period. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: pdq Date: 22 Feb 07 - 10:11 PM dianavan: Your definition of Liberalism sounds like jingoistic tripe right off a box of corn flakes. Did you copy it with your crayons? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Don Firth Date: 22 Feb 07 - 10:24 PM The load of shit hit the deck long before I posted to this thread, pdq. You and John Hardly are obviously reading a lot of Ann Coulter these days. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Don Firth Date: 22 Feb 07 - 10:31 PM "Don Firth's post has no facts or reason, just mis-direction and name-calling." You didn't read the post then, I take it. Either that or you seem to interpret quoting facts as name-calling. Well, if the shoe fits, wear it. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: number 6 Date: 22 Feb 07 - 10:32 PM I didn't know Ann Coulter could write. Hey ... isn't this thread about the worst President ever? No wonder Bush made it to 2nd term in office ... it's no wonder U.S. history is repeating itself. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Don Firth Date: 22 Feb 07 - 10:39 PM Re: John Perkins' book. pdq selects quotes from a Wikipedia article. You might want to check a few other reviews, pro and con, and make up your own mind. Click HERE and scroll down. Or you might want to read the book yourself and make up your own mind (highly recommended). Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Feb 07 - 12:14 AM Everyone is a conspiracy theorist, pdq. ;-) It's just that we have differences of opinion about which conspiracies are factual (or credible) and which are not. And you and I differ when it comes to that. You don't like Perkins because his favorite conspiracy theories don't match yours, that's all. To call Perkins a "conspiracy theorist", as if that in itself invalidates his writing, is about as apt as calling a soldier "a trained killer" (which he is, potentially) or a president "a politician" (and curling your lip in a sneer when you utter the word). It's innuendo, in other words...intended to smear merely by implication, by using a negatively loaded word in a certain context. Of COURSE the man is a conspiracy theorist. Given his background, he could hardly be anything but. EVERYONE who deals in behind the scenes maneuvers that have international implications is dealing with conspiracies of one kind or another. Kind of like calling a woman "a feminist", for instance. Or a person with unusual opinions "a radical". Or a person who opposes a war "a peacenik". You have to ask yourself why his first boss at MAIN "Perkins's first boss at Chas. T. Main, Einar Greve, initially declared to journalists that "basically [Perkins's] story is true" and that "what John's book says is, there was a conspiracy to put all these countries on the hook, and that happened". And then later he recanted??? Doesn't that tell you anything? It tells me something quite obvious. There are powerful people who do NOT want the public to give credence to what Perkins is saying, because it would threaten their established interests. The book is already out, so they can't do anything about that....but they can do something about Perkins' ex-boss. They can scare or bribe him into recanting what he said. If what Perkins says is not true, his boss would not have initially agreed with it. ANY time ANY high level secret is uncovered by a book...there will be a big effort made to discredit that book. You know that. I know it. Why should I be surprised by the stuff you dredged up to attack Perkins? The only thing I wonder is...are you on the payroll? Or are you just a true believer with a background quite different to my own? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: dianavan Date: 23 Feb 07 - 12:33 AM pdq - You should be sure you know the definition of the word, 'jingoism' or 'jingoist' before you use the term and embarass yourself. Then again, I'm not sure you know how to use a dictionary. Look it up, if you can. You will see that to apply it to a liberal is way off base. Grab a vocabulary! I didn't think you were such a complete idiot. No wonder you love Bush. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 23 Feb 07 - 12:57 AM Answers to the original question: Andrew Jackson - he hated American Indians and ignored the Supreme Court that said they had rights and should be left on their land Ronald Reagan - turned the special interests loose against the general American populace and made his rich friends filthy rich (the savings and loan plunder); clobbered federal employees, Air Traffic Controllers in particular George W. Bush - invaded a sovereign nation based upon bogus justification, is ignoring the mess that is Israel, and is busy trying to prove he has bigger balls than his daddy did And because they each totally disregarded the rule of law to pursue their personal vendettas. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Peter Kasin Date: 23 Feb 07 - 02:41 AM Worst: Fillmore. Though I'm glad that he went into the music business after his presidency and set up a great auditorium for legendary rock bands. 2nd worst: Garfield. His cartoon strip doesn't excuse his inadequacies as president. 3rd worst: Washington. His sucker punch of Rudy Tomjanovich overshadowed his otherwise great presidency. 4th worst: Harding. Hired thugs to whack at opponent's legs. Shameful! Best: John Adams. Man, does he brew a great steam beer! 2nd best: Jackson. Set the presidential style with the white glove on one hand. 3rd best: Hoover. Wiped the floor with his 1928 opponent, cleaned up Washington and did not govern within a vacuum. Some say he really sucked, though. Chanteyranger |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 23 Feb 07 - 08:19 AM Reagan clobbered Federal employees ..... Nixon literally clobbered thousands of Federal Employees (i.e. thousands of them killed and wounded well under the employment of the U.S. military 1968 to 1972). biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Riginslinger Date: 23 Feb 07 - 08:19 AM Great observations, Chanteyranger. Of course Hoover could have changed his name to Electrolux and offered a better warranty. Stilly RS has a good point. What Jackson did to native Americans makes me sick to my stomach every time I think about it. I still think Reagan was the worst, but that could be because I lived during his time, and only know Jackson as a figure in history. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 23 Feb 07 - 08:23 AM Correction Nixon 1969 to 1972. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Barry Finn Date: 23 Feb 07 - 08:24 AM Jackson also sold out the African American population. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Feb 07 - 11:59 AM Jackson was a bloody-minded, vicious old coot. A good man to have in command on the battlefield. A lousy man to have in Washington. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: pdq Date: 23 Feb 07 - 12:04 PM Some of the people and organizations that trash John Perkins and his contentions are: Washington Post (Sebastian Mallaby) New York Times In These Times (Mark Engler) Boston Magazine (spokesman for the) US State Department John Perkins also claims that the US government was behind the assasinations of John and Robert F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King Jr., John Lennon and several US senators who died in plane crashes. John Perkin's book "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" is fiction. He is making millions peddling junk. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Feb 07 - 12:24 PM Why not just read the book, instead of repeating propaganda statements from servants of the $ySStem? It would not surprise me a bit if government agents had been involved in any of those assassinations...or in all of them. The government acts exactly the way the Mafia does. They eliminate people who are no longer useful, who are disobedient, or who are seen as screwing things up. They do that both domestically and internationally. People in Latin America know that very well. It's only on home turf, in the "land of the free" that the population lives largely in ignorance and denial regarding such realities....mostly because their consumer lifestyle and their mostly controlled media keeps them conveniently distracted and stupefied most of the time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Don Firth Date: 23 Feb 07 - 12:39 PM "John Perkin's book "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" is fiction. He is making millions peddling junk" Some more of it just hit the floor, pdq. I have a couple of friends who spend a fair amount of time (a few years) in Central and South America and who were in a position to watch what was going on behind the scenes. They've both read Perkins' book and both of them say that Perkins is spot on. Like it or not, the man speaks the truth. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: pdq Date: 23 Feb 07 - 01:15 PM It is just what you want to hear therefore it must be true. Human nature strikes again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Don Firth Date: 23 Feb 07 - 02:02 PM Same goes for you, pdq. I'm not trying to convince you of anything because the only evidence you will accept has to agree with your preconceived ideas. For those whose minds are still open to reading and judging for themselves, just read the book and make your own mind. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: GUEST,282RA Date: 23 Feb 07 - 02:24 PM >>Mallaby, who spent 13 years writing for the London Economist and wrote a favorable biography of World Bank chief James Wolfensohn, holds that Perkins' conception of international finance is "largely a dream" and that his "basic contentions are flat wrong."<< This may be true as I'm no economic scholar and have never read the Perkins book but I'm also very suspicious of people who say, "He's wrong," and offer nothing by which to illustrate the point. Nor from his credentials could he be called impartial. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: John Hardly Date: 23 Feb 07 - 02:40 PM I don't read Coulter. Never have. You want to have a discussion with me instead of the strawman you prefer, I'm ready. 'Til then... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Don Firth Date: 23 Feb 07 - 02:41 PM If you can't get a copy of Perkins' book, or don't want to invest a couple of hours in reading it, I submit the following for your enlightenment and edification: CLICKY. This is John Perkins' speech at the Veterans For Peace convention that took place in Seattle on August 11 th, 2006. It's in three parts (links to parts 2 and 3 in the right column) and the whole thing runs for about an hour. And ask yourself: Does this really sound like some half-assed conspiracy theory, or is the man telling you the Gawdawful truth? It's well worth one's time to invest at least that much time to know what your country is up to. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Bobert Date: 23 Feb 07 - 06:50 PM Hey, folks... This wasn't sposed to break down into yet another stupid ploy be the minoirty catters to highjack yet another thread where other catters might say somethin' bad about any of their heros... So, forget the book... Start another thread about it if you will but foerget it here, please... ... an' let some of the Catters who haven't weighed in in their opinions of the "worst presdient" (and why) who can't seem to find an openin' between the sidebar that has absolutely nuthin' to do with this particualr thread... ...thank you. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: number 6 Date: 23 Feb 07 - 06:53 PM I'm with you on this Bobert ... I find these comments from people on their fav to hate presidents interesting. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Don Firth Date: 23 Feb 07 - 07:08 PM Exactly so, Bobert. Perkins' book has been covered on other threads, but since a couple of people felt it imcumbent upon them to go on the attack, and attack Perkins' book in particular, I felt it necessary to set the record straight. So, having done that---- Now back to our regular broadcast. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Donuel Date: 23 Feb 07 - 07:23 PM If W is such a decider and can mobilize the goverment to save Terry Shiavo why can't he decide where Anna Nichol's body goes. "Ah have decided that the top part of Anna's ashes will go Texas, the bottom half to Bahama and the implants to Hollywood." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: fumblefingers Date: 23 Feb 07 - 08:26 PM Carter without a doubt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: number 6 Date: 23 Feb 07 - 08:29 PM Why Carter? biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Feb 07 - 09:49 AM Actually, I think history will judge Carter as one of the best. That last book he came out with made Professor Dershowitz so mad it mad me like him even better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Feb 07 - 12:56 PM Carter was the only president the USA has ever had who treated Latin Americans in a fair and respectful manner. I think he was too good a man for the US presidency. He was not a shark, a crook, an amoral pragmatist, or an egomaniac...and the job seems to demand some combination of those characteristics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Bobert Date: 24 Feb 07 - 04:54 PM Well, I also like Jimmy Carter but not just because I thought he was a good man but also because he's the only presedenal candidate that I voted for who actually won... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Feb 07 - 05:24 PM So...I'm assuming you wrote in Bill the Cat in 1992? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Feb 07 - 07:31 AM Would there have been a Cold War, or a Korean War if Henry Wallace had still been VP when FDR died? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: fumblefingers Date: 27 Feb 07 - 05:49 PM Carter gave us the Iran fiasco to begin with. Interest rates hit 20% under his expertise. He was an incometent idiot then and his books and moronic remarks now show that he is still an idiot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Feb 07 - 05:56 PM No, fumblefingers, the CIA gave you the Iran crisis when they orchestrated the overthrow of a democratically elected civilian government in Iran in the 1950's and replaced it with absolute tyrannical rule by a monarch, the Shah. The Iranian Islamic revolution would never have happened without the Shah. The extreme Iranian hostility that accompanied the rise of Ayatollah Khomeini would not have happened without America destroying their elected government and replacing it with the Shah. It was done because the Shah was willing to cooperate fully with British and American oil companies. All that happened decades before Jimmy Carter was elected president, and none of it was his fault. You just have way too short a memory. The Iranians have a long memory. They do not forget that the USA destroyed their fledgling democracy after WWII and replaced it with a tyrant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: GUEST Date: 27 Feb 07 - 06:02 PM From which it (Iran) still has not fully recovered from! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Feb 07 - 06:04 PM That's for sure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Feb 07 - 06:22 PM And interest rates didn't really go off the charts until Reagan stupidly retained Paul Volker, and then insured rates would stay high for years more before coming down by submitting his totally unhinged deficit budget to Congress in 1981. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: pdq Date: 27 Feb 07 - 07:50 PM Little Hawk, Rather than dispute your entire post (I do, but that is too much to cover at one time), may I ask you to back-up this statement: ...without America destroying their elected government... If you are correct, you should have no problem citing dates (just one will do) when Persia/Iran had free elections. Anytime since 1925 will be fine. You might also name the person/people who were elected. That ain't too much to ask. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Bobert Date: 27 Feb 07 - 07:56 PM Hey, let's get real here... Interest rates are a product of factors not related to who or isn't president... Presidents have little control of them unless, of course, we get a president who is so far off base that he single handedly screws things up so bad... Carter wasn't such a president... What Carter did, howwever, was cut the deficit... Yeah, I know that all you conservative (haha) Mudcatters hate it when lefty commie presdients act fiscally responsible and pay their bills but seems what we have going is the lefty commie havin' to continually clean up the deficit messes that the Repubs get us in... As for the hostage situation... How many Americans were killed by terrorists during that chapter of our history??? Now, how many were killed during Reagan??? Oh, I see, you all ahd conviently forgotten Lebanon... Shame on yer faulty memories... Okay, let me put it other terms... If you were a hostage, would you rather have Reagan or Carter in office... Hmmmmmmm??? Get my drift here??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Amos Date: 27 Feb 07 - 08:20 PM Not exackly, Beaubert. Interest rates creep up when the currency is debased. The currency is debased when huge amounts of it are invented by fiat. The erosion process of unnecessary war, adulteration of citizen standards of production, the corrosion of liberties, and the freefloating redoubling of M3, which the Feds just somehow lately stopped reporting, will gradually lead to further devaluation of the buck, panic and higher interest rates. The things are joined under the table. So Presidents do have an impact on interest over the long term. Our nation has a moral decline vis-a-vis productivity in that we save less today than any generation of Americans, and more of our population are upside down in debt. Our nation itself is spending five billion a DAY to service debt, up from 2-3 billion eight years ago. The rosy cloud of confidence in American fiat money is slipping. One reason is that the rosy cloud of confidence in American character has been badly dinged by Dick-Head Cheny and his gang of reckless marauders. Look for bubbles to slide, debt to be called, and a harder standard of living to emerge over the next decade. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Amos Date: 27 Feb 07 - 08:25 PM Discontinuance of M3 On March 23, 2006, the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System will cease publication of the M3 monetary aggregate. The Board will also cease publishing the following components: large-denomination time deposits, repurchase agreements (RPs), and Eurodollars. The Board will continue to publish institutional money market mutual funds as a memorandum item in this release. Measures of large-denomination time deposits will continue to be published by the Board in the Flow of Funds Accounts (Z.1 release) on a quarterly basis and in the H.8 release on a weekly basis (for commercial banks). http://www.federalreserve.gov/Releases/h6/discm3.htm FEDERAL RESERVE ORDERS TWO TRILLION DOLLARS TO BE PRINTED AND PUT INTO CIRCULATION! By Special Report Mar 28, 2006, 21:05 http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_21569.shtml TWO TRILLION $$ SOURCES WITHIN THE UNITED STATES TREASURY ARE FLABBERGASTED! INFO CORROBORATED BY THREE SEPARATE U.S. TREASURY SOURCES Six months ago, the Federal Reserve quietly announced that as of March 20, 2006, they would no longer publish "M3" Data. The "M3" was the amount of cash the government printed to put into circulation, propping-up the U.S. economy. As of eight days ago, M3 data is no longer being reported, so there is no way for the public, investors or bond holders to know how much currency exists - and no way to gauge how much a "dollar" is truly worth. Three separate sources in the U.S. Treasury have told me that this week, the federal reserve ordered TWO TRILLION dollars to be printed! The U.S. Treasury is allegedly running printing presses 24/7 to accommodate that order. Treasury employees were specifically ORDERED not to talk about this to anyone because it could cause economic collapse. Even worse, I was also told that the whole Immigration Amnesty Debate (especially the well-funded well-attended protests) was deliberately scheduled to take place now, to divert attention from this massive printing/devaluation of the U.S. Dollar. The feds allegedly figured that by the time anyone found out, they could smooth things over. They figured wrong. Surprise, boys, you've been exposed! Deeper explanation can be found here from November '05 A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Feb 07 - 08:55 PM Sure, pdq, with ease! ;-) The election I was referring to occurred in 1951, but there were some others besides before that. Here's a brief summary from Wickipedia (took me all of 10 seconds to find it): Dr. Mohammed Mossadegh (19 May 1882 - 5 March 1967) was the democratically elected prime minister of Iran from 1951 to 1953. He was twice appointed to office by Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the Shah of Iran, and approved by the vote of parliament. Mossadegh was a nationalist and passionately opposed foreign intervention in Iran. He was also the architect of the nationalization of the Iranian oil industry which was dominated and exploited by the British through the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (today known as British Petroleum (BP). He was later removed from power by Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, in a CIA orchestrated coup, supported and funded by the British and the U.S. governments. The coup was led by CIA agent Kermit Roosevelt, Jr., the grandson of U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt, and came to be known as Operation Ajax, by its secret CIA cryptonym and the "28 Mordad 1332" coup, by its date on the Iranian calendar. Read the whole historical article. It's interesting. Remember, I don't write Wickipedia, and it's not part of a commie plot to mislead the world either. ;-) It is common knowledge in the Third World that the USA crushed Iran's fledgling democracy for its own business interests. Mossadegh's only crime was nationalism. He tried to put Iran in charge of its own oil. For that he was brought down in a CIA-sponsored coup. Some other democratically elected governments which have been covertly attacked (by coups and/or assassinations) by the USA's CIA operatives in more recent times: Chile in 1973 (coup and violent death of president Allende) Nicaraugua (longterm terrorist warfare by contras and USA-trained agents on civilian infrastructure and people of Nicaragua) Venezuela (attempted CIA coup recently...but it failed) Guatemala (coup, followed by much activity by CIA-trained death squads) Panama (Torrijos - assassinated - Panama later invaded. Reason? Panama Canal sovereignty issues. Phony excuse given: "Noriega is an evil drug-dealing man who must go." Ha! Ha! They loved Noriega's evil drug-dealing nature as long as he was willing to cooperate 100$ with the USA on certain vital matters, but he was stubborn regarding the Canal Zone treaty and some other issues.) Everyone in the Third World knows, pdq, that the USA will attack and bring down any democratically elected government in the Third World that doesn't cooperate fully with the multinational corporate objectives. It's pretty well only Americans who don't seem to know that yet. You're living in a gilded cage that is built on the bones and shattered dreams of Third World people, buddy. And so am I. But at least I know it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Feb 07 - 09:10 PM Oh. Sorry...here's the link to the Wickipedia article on Iran and Dr Mossadegh and the coup: Mossadegh |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: pdq Date: 27 Feb 07 - 10:19 PM Little Hawk, That is a good start. Battle of the Wiki, eh? Now please reconcile the statement from the third through fifth lines of your post: Dr. Mohammed Mossadegh...was the democratically elected prime minister of Iran from 1951 to 1953. He was twice appointed to office by Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the Shah of Iran, and approved by the vote of parliament That cannot all be true. If he was appointed (correct answer) he could not have been elected, at least not in the same series of events. Also, the prime minister is subordinate to the King (Shah, in this case), so he was the Shah's helper, not the country's leader. Again, the time you claim Iran had a democratically-elected government is smack in the middle of the Pahlavi monarchy's rule: Mohammad Reza Pahlavi: Shah of Iran Reign September 16, 1941 - February 11, 1979 Born October 16, 1919, Tehran Died July 27, 1980, aged 60, Cairo Predecessor Reza Shah Pahlavi (ruled December 15, 1925 - Septmber 16, 1941) Heir-Apparent Reza Cyrus Pahlavi "...was the monarchial ruler of Iran from September 16, 1941 until the Iranian Revolution on February 11, 1979. He was the second monarch of the Pahlavi dynasty and the last Shah of the Iranian monarchy." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Feb 07 - 10:40 PM Yes, I anticipated that interpretation on your part, Dickey. I suspect it works a lot like that in most countries. The public elects someone. Then someone else in the structure of government, a high official, formally appoints that person to the office of prime minister or whatever the public elected them to. That's what they do in Canada. Our governor general (who is appointed by the Queen of England, I believe) appoints the leader of the political party that won the most votes in the last election to the office of prime minister after the votes are counted. It's a symbolic ceremony. I believe that's the way it works in England too. In your country, an outfit called the electoral college puts your winning candidate in the presidency after the public has cast their votes. That's another formality. I see little difference. It is Wickipedia who says he was democratically elected, Dickey, so perhaps your argument is with them, not me. You are grasping at straws. ;-) It is totally obvious if you read the whole article that Mossadegh was elected by popular vote several times in his career as a politician. You are siezing on what you hope will be an opportunity to prove that Iran has never had any democratic elections...but, my friend, that is mere wishful thinking on your part. Your government would prefer that you not know that other countries have democratic ideals too, specially when they are countries your government wants to attack. So they tell you from Grade 1 on that you guys invented democracy and now you must take it to the rest of the oh, so underprivileged world...at the point of a gun. If you believe that, you probably still believe in Santa Claus too... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Feb 07 - 10:42 PM S'cuse me! I called you "Dickey". I meant "pdq" in this case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: pdq Date: 28 Feb 07 - 12:33 PM "It is Wickipedia who says he was democratically elected, Dickey, so perhaps your argument is with them, not me." That is a disappointing ploy from you, Little Hawk. You said the government of Iran was democratically elected yet you have just transferred the blame for being wrong to Wikipedia. "Dr. Mohammed Mossadegh...was the democratically elected prime minister of Iran..." No, he was appointed by the leader of Iran, Mohamed Reza Pahlavi, head of the monarchy. "Mossadegh was elected by popular vote several times in his career as a politician." Yes, and Kerry was elected to the US Senate, but that does not make him anything but a Senator. Dr. Mossadegh was a member of the Iranian legislature, from there he was appointed prime minister. He then staged a coups which was put down (as it should have been). "You are siezing on what you hope will be an opportunity to prove that Iran has never had any democratic elections..." Since you seem to know that, why all the subterfuge. No amount of arguing will change facts, at least that is how a science major looks at things. Again, Iran has never had any democratically elected government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: pdq Date: 28 Feb 07 - 12:49 PM the majority of the post is not going through even though it appears on 'preview'
I corrected what I could, but couldn't find any hidden text (the text you typed that disappeared). You used a </> tag in many places where I think you meant to use </b> or </i> to close bold or italics. I don't think </> is a valid HTML tag, but I may be wrong. Perhaps it had something to do with your missing text. Also, your text is full of heavy use of the spacebar. I don't know if that would cause a problem or not. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Bobert Date: 28 Feb 07 - 08:05 PM Yo Amos, Well, yeah... I can't find fault with yer Econ 101... What I guess I didn't spell out about presdients havin' or not havin' control of interest rates is the Fed... As long as a president doesn't buck the Fed then most likely there won't be trouble... Bill Clinton is a prime example... He and Greenspan worker together real well and, might of fact, what Clinton did was purdy much what Jimmy Carter did... He tightened the belt on spending and cut into deficts which made out currency more attractive becuase the governemnt was solvent and not in mired in red ink... If you look at the Reagan Charge it" years the deficits finally took their toll and interest rates rose toward the end of his presidency and thus the recession that Bill Clinton inherited... My argument is that Jimmy Carter'd policies didn't creat the high interst rates... I can't think of any of his policies that would point to that... OPEC had a lot to do with it... The spendin' under LBJ and Nixon had a lot to do with it but Jimmy Carter's policies din't... At least, that is my memory ofd things... If I missed something along the way then please enlighten me... Yer bud, Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Riginslinger Date: 01 Mar 07 - 08:14 AM "My argument is that Jimmy Carter'd policies didn't creat the high interst rates..." If Carter's programs to expand and develop alternative sources of energy had been allowed to go forward we wouldn't be in the pickle we're in today either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Mar 07 - 02:21 PM I AND Wickipedia said he was democratically elected, pdq. It is common knowledge, you utter doofus! Why don't you open the link I provided, read the flippin' article and educate yourself? ALL prime ministers in modern democracies are appointed by some other government official to the post of prime minister after winning an election, for God's sake! That is the case in Canada, the UK, and every other parliamentary democracy I know of. In constitutional monarchies, like the UK or Spain or Holland (I expect) it is the Monarch who appoints the prime minister. It is a ceremonial formality, and it is the monarch's job to do the ceremony. It's a rubber stamp. It doesn't mean that the monarch chooses who is going to BE prime minister...the public chooses that through voing their preference at the polls. Then the monarch rubber stamps it, everybody applauds, and it's official. In your country, the public goes out to the polls and votes their choice. The electoral college then casts their votes...as a solid block in each state (and I regard THAT as undemocratic)....the flippin' presidential candidate who gets the most electoral votes then has to go go...guess what...a CEREMONY...where he gets sworn in...by an official. Are you telling me that the public didn't choose him because that official is the one who swears him in? Are you telling me that he is not democratically elected in that case? That seems to be what you're telling me if you think that Mossadegh was not democratically elected by popular vote in Iran. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: pdq Date: 01 Mar 07 - 02:57 PM Dear Birdfeathers, You are armed with nothing but pre-conceived prejudices against governments the US supports, and a propaganda article in Wikippoopoo. Go do some honest research and come back with a few facts. The articles in Wiki are written and submitted annonymously by readers and are not checked for accuracy. The person(s) who submitted the one you quote has a political agenda. Facts do not have agendas. To start, let's take things one item at a time. Please explain why other articles in Wiki show the Pahlavi Monarchy lasted from 1925 until 1979, yet this "democratically-elected" government you insist existed was in the early 1950s. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Mar 07 - 03:21 PM pdq - You are evidently unacquainted with the difference between a constitutional monarchy, such as existed in Iran in the early 50's (and exists right now in the UK, Holland, Spain, and various other western democracies)....and an absolute monarchy, such as existed in Iran after the CIA-sponsored coup in 1953...and such as exists right now in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait as well. Must I explain to you what the difference is between a constitutional monarchy and an absolute monarchy? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: KB in Iowa Date: 01 Mar 07 - 03:31 PM I just Googled it and every site I checked agrees that Iran had a democratically elected PM from 1951 until 1953 when the US and Great Britain sponsored a coup. It is not just LH and wiki dreaming this up. I think if the more liberal members of our forum were arguing that Iran has no history of democracy then the more conservative members would point to 1951-53 to show that they do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: pdq Date: 01 Mar 07 - 03:35 PM Please do, if you feel so inclined. Now, consider that Mohamed Rezi Pahlavi was the legitimate monarch starting in 1941. His rule was ended by a violent coup in 1979 where most of the top business and military leaders were systematically slaughtered. Yes, Iran was led by the same man before and afrter the coup attempt in 1953. How could it have gone from constitutional monarchy to an absolute monarchy with the same people in charge? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Mar 07 - 03:45 PM By changing the rules and who gets to enforce them and how... How did England go from an absolute monarchy to a constitutional monarchy over a number of centuries? By changing the rules and changing who got to enforce them and how. (The first step in that was the Magna Carta, when the nobility forced the king to share some of his powers with them. It was a step in the right direction.) What happened after Mossadegh was overthrown in Iran was a massive step in the wrong direction. A parliamentary democracy which reflected the will of the Iranian people was replaced by an authoritarian dictatorship rule by a monarch who was an obedient client and servant of the UK, the USA, and the multinational oil companies. And from that came the eventual Islamic revolution which overthrew the Shah, and for which some other doofus here attempted to blame Jimmy Carter, of all people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Mar 07 - 03:48 PM You know why so many Iranians hate the USA, pdq? Not because the USA has democracy or "freedom"! No, because the USA took away their democracy and put them under the rule of a tyrant, that's why. And it happened in 1953. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: John Hardly Date: 01 Mar 07 - 04:09 PM "You know why so many Iranians hate the USA, pdq?" That one's easy. We have better folk music than they do and they hate banjos. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: pdq Date: 01 Mar 07 - 04:14 PM It is hard to read but here is a timeline for Mohamed Reza Pahlavi, legitimate monarch of Iran: BIOGRAPHY: 1919: October 26: Born in Teheran, Iran as son of the commander of the Cossack Brigade. 1925: His father becomes shah-en-shah of Iran. 1941: September: Succeeds his father as shah-en-shah, with the aim of keeping Soviet troops out of the country. — Pahlavi lets British and American troops use Iran for transporting supplies to the Soviet Union fighting the German invasion. 1946: Soviet troops that had been stationed in Iran during World War 2, withdraws. 1951: March: Mohammad Mosaddeq manages to pass a bill in the Majles (the parliament) to nationalize the British petroleum interests in Iran. — April: Mosaddeq appointed prime minister. 2 years of tension and conflict follows. 1953: August 16: After Mohammad Reza tries to remove Mosaddeq from power, he himself is forced to flee the country, following a power struggle with the prime minister. — August 19: With the help of US' Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and royalist military officers, Mohammad Reza can return to the country. From this time on, USA became the most important Western ally of his. Mosaddeq is removed from power. 1955: Mohammad Reza takes Iran into the Western alliance Baghdad Pact. 1957: Mohammad Reza subscribes to the Eisenhower Doctrine, which aimed at damming up communism in the Middle East. — Establishes a security police, with the assistance of Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) of the USA and Mossad of Israel. 1960: October: Muhammad Reza becomes a father for the first time, with his third wife. 1961: A land reform programme is started. — Dissolves the parliament and rules by decree. 1963: A 5-year plan aims at economic development in agriculture and the industrial sector. — January: Launches the White Revolution which involved an expansion of the road, rail and air network, many new of dams and irrigation projects, aid to industrial growth and land reform. There were also educational and health projects. Campaigns against diseases such as malaria was started, and literacy corps and a health corps were sent out to the many remove villages around the country. — June A conflict with the religious leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini reaches a climax, resulting in nationwide protests against Mohammad Reza. Mohammad Reza crushed this, leaving thousands of dead. Khomeini is imprisoned. 1964: November: Khomeini is expelled from Iran, as he resumed opposition after being freed from prison 7 months earlier. 1971 2,500 years of unbroken monarchy is celebrated in Persepolis. 1972: Following the success of the 5-year plan of 1963, a new 5-year plan is defined and put into action — with further development as the aim. This plan would however overheat the economy, leading to depopulation of the countryside, heavy corruption and difficult times for the average Iranian. Late 1970's The opposition lead by Khomeini continues and gains momentum. When president Jimmy Carter takes office in USA in 1977, he forces Mohammad Reza to moderate the control of the opposition. 1979: January 16: Mohammad Reza leaves officially for holidays in Aswan, Egypt, but it is clear that he can never return. Khomeini would return from his exile the following month, and introduce a strict Islamic regime in Iran. — November: Iranian militants take 50 US citizens as hostages, demanding for the extradition of the shah in return for their release. The USA, which was the host of shah at this point, refused. 1980 July 27: Dies in Cairo from lymphatic cancer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Mar 07 - 04:14 PM Hey, almost everybody hates banjos... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Mar 07 - 04:17 PM Oh, and almost everybody hated the Shah too. But Mossadegh was very popular. You know why? He didn't sell out to the foreign oil companies. He was a patriot. The Shah was a sellout and a tyrant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: pdq Date: 01 Mar 07 - 04:33 PM That is your opinion, Birdfeathers, but even if it were true (it ain't), what gave Jimmy Carter the right to pull the rug out from under a legitimate foreign government (our ally) 26 years later? And, yes he did. When Carter was elected, we had strong allies in Lebanon, Iran, Turkey, Israel, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. After four years of Ramsey Clark's foreigh policy, the Middle East was in chaos. A realistic analysis of the Carter years is needed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: curmudgeon Date: 01 Mar 07 - 04:41 PM Ramsey Clarke was the Attorney General. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: John Hardly Date: 01 Mar 07 - 04:57 PM Ramsey Clarke founded the Byrds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: pdq Date: 01 Mar 07 - 05:02 PM I was just listening to Dillard & Clark "The Incredible Expidition". Banjos, Clarks, what more could ya want, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: GUEST,282RA Date: 01 Mar 07 - 05:06 PM But anyway, yes, Bush is the worst president. Worst in my lifetime easy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Bobert Date: 01 Mar 07 - 05:10 PM Ahhhh, least we forget that J.C. was president during the major flare up within OPEC... Can anyone explain to me how Carter could have prevented that occurance??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: KB in Iowa Date: 01 Mar 07 - 05:15 PM The first energy 'crisis' was in 1973 when Nixon was president. That is when there lines at the gas station and OPEC became a household name. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: pdq Date: 01 Mar 07 - 05:59 PM Cinnamon Stillwell is a San Francisco writer. She can be reached at cinnamonstillwell@yahoo.com. Read her blog at cinnamonstillwell.blogspot.com/. {length reduced for Mudcat policy reasons} 'Worst Ex-President' When it comes to the belligerence of North Korea, Carter's past involvement has done considerable damage. In the early 1990s, Carter traveled to North Korea on another of his "peacekeeping missions" and brokered a deal with dictator Kim Il Sung. He did so without the blessing of the Clinton administration, although, at the behest of then-Vice President Al Gore, President Clinton later agreed to adopt Carter's deal. The United States ended up providing aid, oil and, incredibly, material for building light-water nuclear reactors to the North Koreans in exchange for their abandoning their nuclear weapons program. The problem is they didn't abandon their nuclear weapons program; they just said they did. And in 2002, they admitted as much. Still, to this day, Carter claims that his approach was a success and that it was President Bush's inclusion of North Korea in the famous "axis of evil" speech that led to current leader Kim Jong Il's hostility toward America. The fruits of Carter's history with Iran are even more rotten. Carter's abandonment of the shah in 1977-78 helped lead to the Islamic revolution (and the murder or imprisonment of many of the Iranian leftists who had supported overthrowing the shah), the emboldening of the Soviet Union to invade Afghanistan and the rise of radical Islam worldwide. His botched approach to the Iranian hostage crisis of 1979 inspired Islamic terrorists all over the world, culminating in the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. The threat of nuclear war emanating from Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad can be seen as another offshoot of Carter's ineffective policies. Predictably, Carter and Zbigniew Brzezinski, his former national security adviser, are now pushing for "direct talks" with Iran. But considering the abject failure of U.N.-brokered negotiations (supported by the Bush administration) thus far, it is difficult to imagine how U.S.-led negotiations would fare any better. Wherever U.S. interests have been imperiled and a temporary "peace" could be bought at the expense of long-term security, Carter has always been on board. The late Democratic Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan summed it up when he said of Carter in 1980, "Unable to distinguish between our friends and our enemies, he has essentially adopted our enemies' view of the world." Meddler and Failure Another of Jimmy Carter's dubious legacies has been the now common habit of former presidents meddling in current politics. Carter has made many an enemy among both Republican and Democratic administrations by undermining their foreign policies via the Carter Center. As Chris Suellentrop put it in an article for Slate magazine, Carter has "difficulties coming to grips with the fact that he … [is] not president." Despite the overwhelming evidence of failure, Carter has become something of a sacred cow to many liberals, who often express outrage when their hero is criticized. But no one who inserts himself into the public sphere is above criticism. And how quickly Carter's fans forget the malaise that gripped the nation under his presidency. My own childhood memories of the time consist mostly of long lines snaking around gas stations due to the embargo on Iranian oil, not to mention a general feeling in the country of want and hopelessness. Carter may have inherited a recession, but his presidency did little to improve the weak economy. This was among the reasons that he lost re-election to Ronald Reagan in 1980. Yet somehow Carter's presidency is still held up by some as a shining example for the current leadership to follow. Woe unto Israel now that Carter's book has entered the pantheon of propaganda. And woe unto America if Jimmy Carter is our guiding light. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: pdq Date: 01 Mar 07 - 06:07 PM I case you missed a real gem in there folks, here it is : "The late Democratic Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan summed it up when he said of Carter in 1980, "Unable to distinguish between our friends and our enemies, he has essentially adopted our enemies' view of the world." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: GUEST,282RA Date: 01 Mar 07 - 06:13 PM >>Carter's abandonment of the shah in 1977-78 helped lead to the Islamic revolution<< Abandonment? His SUPPORT of the shah was the problem. It was Carter allowing the shah sanctuary here for the last days of his wretched life that pushed Iranian students to storm the American embassy and take hostages. >>Predictably, Carter and Zbigniew Brzezinski, his former national security adviser, are now pushing for "direct talks" with Iran. But considering the abject failure of U.N.-brokered negotiations (supported by the Bush administration) thus far, it is difficult to imagine how U.S.-led negotiations would fare any better.<< Especially considering the US completely ignored the UN when it caustioned not to invade Iraq. The US showed Iran that the UN doesn't have to be listened to. US-led negotiations are a disaster, US-led war is a disaster. Let's just leave. Before we make things even worse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Bobert Date: 01 Mar 07 - 06:42 PM To all the Carter haters: How many Americans were killed by terrorists during Carter's 4 years??? How many Americans were killed by terrorists during Reagan's first 4 years??? (But, Bobert, all those Marines killed in Beruit were Carter's fault...) Yeah, an Bill Clinton got us into Iraqmire... Come on folks... You gotta take responsibility sometime... If there's any difference between the Repub and Dems since Nuixon the Repubs always blame their mistakes on other folks and no one ever takes a fall for their failures... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Mar 07 - 06:43 PM Your enemies, pdq, are yourselves. In that sense, you are exactly like the Romans, Napoleon, the Nazis, the Russian Czars, the Soviets, the Ottomans, the British, the Spanish, and a variety of other conquering empires who have strutted, swaggered, and slaughtered their way across the globe in succeeding ages, armoured in the belief that their way was "the best". Presently you will be replaced by another such conquering empire. Maybe China. But I won't be around to see that or to point it out to the loyalists such as you who defend the empire's actions. And neither will you. Unless we both reincarnate into that time period. If so, be prepared for further debate. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: John Hardly Date: 01 Mar 07 - 07:19 PM I actually kinda liked June Carter. I never bought any of her albums or anything, but I do have a Johnny Cash album or two around here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Bobert Date: 01 Mar 07 - 07:20 PM But LH, ain't we the good guys??? Heck, God is on our side, ain't He??? I mean, look at all these churches... God has to be on our side an' we need to show these other folks how good it can be to have God on yer side... Right??? I mean, if not then why would we invade and kill all these folks??? Answer me that one, can ya??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Mar 07 - 07:25 PM Gosh, Bobert...how do I take on an argument as convincing as that??? (grin) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Riginslinger Date: 01 Mar 07 - 07:39 PM "Woe unto Israel now that Carter's book has entered the pantheon of propaganda." Jimmy Carter's latest book is an honest effort to find common ground in the Middle East. Professor Dershowitz and other self-centered Jews are just pissed off because he didn't waste a hundred pages recounting the time-worn events of the Holocaust. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Peter Kasin Date: 02 Mar 07 - 02:58 AM It seemed like absolutely none of Carter's advisors had a grip on how to reverse the economic crisis. At least one of them had a good stand-up line, though (Kahn), when he called the oil sheiks "schnooks." I very much admire Carter's post-presidential work with Habitat For Humanity, though. He and Rosalyn are together a force in that organization. I don't think Ramsey Clark was connected with his presidency , was he? Clark was in the LBJ administration when he was atty general. pdq, I think you mean Cyrus Vance, no? Chanteyranger |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: pdq Date: 02 Mar 07 - 10:09 AM You are correct, Chanteyranger, but I believe Ramesy Clark did advise Carter about the Middle East and other areas in foreign policy. Hell, Carter could not have screwed things up on three continents without a lot of help. Clark, Ramsey Clark, Ramsey, 1927–, attorney general of the United States (1967–69), b. Dallas, Tex.; son of Tom Campbell Clark. Admitted to the bar in 1951, Ramsey Clark practiced law in Dallas. After serving in the federal government as assistant attorney general in charge of the lands division (1961–65), deputy attorney general (1965–66), and acting attorney general (Oct., 1966–Feb., 1967), he was appointed by President Johnson to succeed Nicholas Katzenbach as attorney general. Clark proved to be a vigorous defender of civil liberties and civil rights; he opposed the use of government wiretaps and initiated the first Northern school desegregation case. After leaving the government, he taught law and later became active in the anti–Vietnam War movement, visiting North Vietnam in 1972. In 1974 he was the Democratic candidate for the U.S. Senate from New York but was defeated by Jacob Javits; he also failed in a second Senate run in 1976. Subsequently he practiced as a defense lawyer in New York and continued his political activism. He founded the International Action Center (associated with the Trotskyite Workers' World party), which, like Clark, has opposed various forms of "oppression" by the United States, including military actions, the death penalty, and globalization. Clark has defended or supported Philip Berrigan, Slobodan Miloseviç, Bosnian Serb leader and accused war criminal Radovan Karadzic, Rwandan clergyman and convicted genocide instigator Elizaphan Ntakirutimana, and Saddam Hussein (acting as a defense attorney at his trial in Iraq beginning in 2005). For an account of his career as Attorney General, see Justice by Richard Harris (1970). The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, 6th ed. Copyright © 2007, Columbia University Press. All rights reserved. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Worst President Ever???... From: Riginslinger Date: 02 Mar 07 - 02:40 PM Jimmy Carter could have done a lot more for America if the Ayattollah Khomeini hadn't gotten Ronald Reagan elected. |
