BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 10:33 PM

"RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?"

In answer to this, NO. It is a Party for goodness sake. A Party can't drive a car. It can drive a nail, a golf ball, a person nuts, but NOT a car.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: GUEST,Bobert
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 11:38 PM

You brought up the statistcs in another thread that didn't have anything to do with poverty.

I am talking about reality 101. I want to know if this poverty line is figured the same for all countries of which the US is the lowest.

That $1300 per month apartment you mentioned is the average in DC, not the minimum. That covers from the Rock Creek Park down to $575 in South East.

Those income numbers Peace quoted were by the Census Bureau and do not include any benefits. "low income persons spend $1.94 for every $1.00 in "income" reported by the Census"

I would like to know why The average "poor" American is considered to live in a larger house or apartment than does the average West European (This is the average West European, not poor West Europeans). Poor Americans eat far more meat, are more likely to own cars and dishwashers, and are more likely to have basic modern amenities such as indoor toilets than is the general West European population.

Something does not jive.

---

Posted by the person who usually posts as Dickey.
He'd better stick to a consistent user name. Impersonating another Mudcatter is a definite violation of the rules.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 11:40 PM

Who the fuck are YOU and who the fuck are you talking to and why do you have so much trouble getting your fucking name straight?

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 11:41 PM

Why do you think it OK to misuse Bobert's name, asshole?

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 11:42 PM

And address that shit on the appropriate thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 11:43 PM

Hey. Could one of you clones let Dickey know that it is not right OR accepted to take and use other people's names when he guest posts? Fawk a dawk.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 11:47 PM

Which turkey out there is 'controlling and keeping a watchful eye' on Guest posts? I'll brb as Guest and the fuckin' games can begin.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 10:03 AM

Thanks, Brucie (Peace) fir lettin' folks know that the above post by "GUEST, Bobert" ain't mine...

I ain't too sure whoes it is but the writing style is very much similar to someone who has postyed here and other places an' I don't think it would take a rocket surgeon to figure out who that person is...

And, yes, we Greens drive cars... We have electricty... indoor plumbing, etc... I know... Amazing!!!

Bobert (not GUEST, Bobert)

p.s. btw, I'm going to PM Joe Offer about the use of my name in this manner...

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Alec
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 11:01 AM

Two questions.1) How accurate a comparison can be made between 2 countries when,as is the case here,seperate performance indicators are used for each?
2)When,by whom,and on what criteria was it decided that the U.K. did not qualify as a Western,Industrialised developed country?

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 11:33 AM

Thank you, Alec... I never said the UK wasn't a "western, industrialized developed country" nor would I however...

...some folks here just like to invent things that they wished you'd said and then argue with those invented words???

Hey, I don't get it either... It's one thing to talk with yerself but quite another to argue with other's invented arguments... I think it would take a psychiatrist to figure that one out 'cause there certainly ain't much logic to it...

Bobert (not GUEST, Bobert, whoever that is...)

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Alec
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 11:47 AM

Thanks Bobert.I knew you didn't say that.Just thought the other guy might like to clarify that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 11:52 AM

Not to worry, Alac... The other guy will explain it with yet another Bushite "cut 'n paste" 'er maybe like he's done on another thread, a 6 year old obscure article on stuff that happened a couple decades ago????

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, part #7648???

What am I missin' an...

...beam me up, Scotty...

Bobert (still not GUEST, Bobert...)

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 12:14 PM

Sorry Bobert but:

You brought up the statistcs in another thread that didn't have anything to do with poverty.

I am talking about reality 101. I want to know if this poverty line is figured the same for all countries of which the US is the lowest.

That $1300 per month apartment you mentioned is the average in DC, not the minimum. That covers from the Rock Creek Park down to $575 in South East.

Those income numbers Peace quoted were by the Census Bureau and do not include any benefits. "low income persons spend $1.94 for every $1.00 in "income" reported by the Census"

I would like to know why The average "poor" American is considered to live in a larger house or apartment than does the average West European (This is the average West European, not poor West Europeans). Poor Americans eat far more meat, are more likely to own cars and dishwashers, and are more likely to have basic modern amenities such as indoor toilets than is the general West European population.

Something does not jive.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 01:09 PM

It's one thing to casually throw something into a post, yet quite another to highjack a thread by changing the entire discussion...

Understand???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 01:40 PM

I guess that answer is as good as any you have given. If you think another thread is required go ahead.

Make sure it begins with Well well well.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Alec
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 02:53 PM

I realise it might be considered somewhat impertinent for me to be asking a supplementary question whilst the answer to my two previous questions are (presumably) still gestating,but...
A lot has been said about the "average" American,the "average" European & the "average" Japanese,however,at no point is it specified whether it is mean,mode or median average which is being referred to.
Clearly this information is necessary if the figures quoted are to have any meaning.
Could somebody please clarify?

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 03:15 PM

Bobert: "a discussion on why America has such a high number of folks livin' like folks in Third World countries is LONG OVERDUE"

How many Bobert?

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 04:37 PM

Way too many fir this ol' hillbilly to count 'um all... Some live right here in Page County, Va...

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 05:23 PM

Green Party activists are sensitive to the problems such as this that they encounter. Whenever possible, they go for the best alternative to pollution, gas-guzzling cars and many of them (us) ride bikes. Sometimes groups like GreenPeace go on the line to counter the Corporate oppressors who are destroying our environment. They may break the law but remember that abolitionists also broke the law in their time.

There are so many medications out there that are unecessary. They are made for the profit of the drug companies and not for the benefit of the afflicted. Animals have been killed for not very good reasons over the years.

If there was an anti-smoking ordinance here in the US I would have no problem paying a tax to support it. It would be in the best health interest of our citizens. Smoking is a form of drug taking and doesn't need to be encouraged or accepted in any way.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 06:27 PM

Ditto, Frank...

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 06:29 PM

I find it hard to believe that there are still people who think that saving the environment for our children and grand children--the future--is a bad thing. How fuckin' selfish can a person be.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: The Length
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 08:28 PM

Anyone for dandelion tea and sunflower seed cookies ?

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 08:30 PM

Yes, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: The Length
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 08:35 PM

Milk ? goats milk of course, they crap less.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 08:37 PM

Soy milk please, no animals are exploited in it's production.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 11:19 PM

Well, that's true, but what about all the energy they to use up in building those little, teeny, tiny stools and buckets that people have to use when they milk soy beans?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Dickey
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 01:39 AM

Now that we have established how many is a high number, even though you have no idea how many that is, tell us how they are "livin' like folks in Third World countries"?

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Alec
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 02:35 AM

...even though you have no idea...
Funny thing is,I'm getting the impression that,that is your position on the questions I asked you Dickey.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 04:30 AM

I am a member of Greenpeace and Friends of The Earth.
I was once a member of the Green Party.
I cycle when I can, but that is for my own benefit.
Everyone has a moral responsibility to live a responsible life style, but individual action will not save us.
That is the point of supporting powerful pressure groups that can influence governments.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 06:46 AM

Bubblerat,
Greenpeace converted the Rainbow Warrior into a motor/sailing vessel by constructing three masts on the hull of a North Sea fishing trawler formerly called the Grampian Fame.

It is an ocean-going vessel equipped with the latest in electronic navigation, sailing and communications equipment.

If it was only able to sail, it would not be able to effectivly interfere with whaling operations or much else of its valuable work.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 06:49 AM

Rainbow Warrior under sail

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Dickey
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 04:29 PM

Bobert is the one that made the allegation "America has such a high number of folks livin' like folks in Third World countries" and I need to know the facts that the allegation is based on.

I would like to know what that number is and I would like to know how they are living like folks in Third World countries.

It seems to me like another case of someone repeating something that they don't know to be true and don't care if it is true or not and don't even believe themselves. But they don't have any integrity so they pass it on in hopes that some other person will believe it.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 04:38 PM

"Poverty definition --- Following the Office of Management and Budget's (OMB) Statistical Policy Directive 14, the Census Bureau uses a set of money income thresholds that vary by family size and composition to determine who is in poverty. If a family's total income is less than the family's threshold, then that family and every individual in it is considered in poverty. The official poverty thresholds do not vary geographically, but they are updated for inflation using Consumer Price Index (CPI-U). The official poverty definition uses money income before taxes and does not include capital gains or noncash benefits (such as public housing, Medicaid, and food stamps)."

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 04:43 PM

" Real median household income remained unchanged between 2003 and 2004 at $44,389, according to a report released today by the U.S. Census Bureau. Meanwhile, the nation's official poverty rate rose from 12.5 percent in 2003 to 12.7 percent in 2004. The percentage of the nation's population without health insurance coverage remained stable, at 15.7 percent in 2004. The number of people with health insurance increased by 2.0 million to 245.3 million between 2003 and 2004, and the number without such coverage rose by 800,000 to 45.8 million."

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 04:45 PM

"Poverty

Overview

There were 37.0 million people in poverty (12.7 percent) in 2004, up from 35.9 million (12.5 percent) in 2003.


There were 7.9 million families in poverty in 2004, up from 7.6 million in 2003. The poverty rate for families remained unchanged at 10.2 percent. The poverty rate and the number in poverty showed no change for the different type of families.


As defined by the Office of Management and Budget and updated for inflation using the Consumer Price Index, the average poverty threshold for a family of four in 2004 was an income of $19,307; for a family of three, $15,067; for a family of two, $12,334; and for unrelated individuals, $9,645."

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 04:57 PM

However, the picture painted by the Census Bureau (the three posts above) is not quite as it seems. Definitions alone do not explain issues of terrible poverty amongst certain parts of the American population. The 'parts' are usually single mothers, Blacks and Hispanics. Older people are beginning to enter the picture and are more likely to live in a terrible poverty. And some will argue that possession of a television or microwave oven should be an indicator that the people are not REALLY in poverty, and if they were they'd sell their TVs and microwaves and get OUT of poverty, they would be doing America a favour. IMO, those people have their heads firmly lodged somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Dickey
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 02:38 AM

Peace:

How do they ascertain how much they are actually making?

What I am pointing out is Bobert's use of statistical information to support some anti government agenda even though he does not believe in statistics.

"The US leads all *developed nations" in per capita poverty, infant mortality, incarceration rates and capital punishment"

"United States, which boasts all this wealth, hides the "fact" that it also haas the highest per capita poverty rate of any western, industrialized developed country"

In addition, because he claims that the number of people below the poverty line is higher in the US than other countries, I would like to know how it is figured in the US and the other countries to see of apples are being compared to apples.

I would also note that the UK supposedly has 17% below the poverty line. I do not believe that is possible. I think there is something wrong with these numbers.

When searching on the subject I come up with facts about how many of these people have two cars, cell phones and 3 bedroom houses etc.

Facts about how the poor in America have more than the average people in other western European nations.

Something here does not compute but Bobert does not care as long as it gives him a talking point to prove something else.

Another claim of his is that a high number of people in the US are living like folks in 3rd world countries.

I find that hard to believe and I would like that to be substantiated. However Bobert is not a substantiating sort of person. He likes to blurt out something he read somewhere, likely some left wing blog or the WaPo, and moves quickly along to the next blurt.

Bobert:"1300 a month minimum for an apartment" I search and find that it is the average and not the minimum. Where did that number come from?

Next on the list of substantiations is infant mortality, incarceration rates and capital punishment.

Note that I am careful not to call people names because I don't think name calling is necessary to prove a point.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Dickey
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 01:58 AM

Bobert: Are you in over his head?

I was hoping some of the UKers here would dispute or explain why 17% are below the poverty line in the UK.

And I still want to know about those third world conditions here in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Alec
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 02:45 AM

I was hoping some of the UKers here would dispute or explain why 17% are below the poverty line in the UK
Dickey
If you wish to debate with me,define your terms
Aristotle
The terms you need to define have already been identified for you Dickey.
You have yourself denounced people who ...repeat... something that they don't know to be true and don't care if it is true or not and don't even believe themselves yet you present as such a person yourself.
BTW the post in which you came up with this particular gem is the one in which you denounce others for their supposed lack of integrity.Which was made after you had posted under somebody else's name.
Yet you still seem to think that you have some sort of credibility.
That's just obtuse.
No matter,as I say provide the omitted data and we can return to the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 08:54 AM

I'm not going to get into long and exhaustive discussions about world poverty but purely for information on poverty in the UK,   Cornwall, has Objective One Status from the EU. To qualify for this you must be one of the very poorest areas in Europe and that includes all member states. Down here it has a lot to do with having the highest rates, water bills, utility bills in the country, house prices are next to highest anywhere in the Uk , consequently first time buyers cannot afford to buy many of the houses, wages are the lowest anywhere in the Uk and predominently seasonal and there is a real shortage of affordable homes to rent. Rural poverty is rampant and we have the third highest number of people living on the streets outside London. Because Cornwall is a stunningly beautiful county with some of the most magnificent views anywhere in the UK people tend to think it is a rich area. Sometimes you just need to stop and look behind the glossy image.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 08:57 AM

Guest, Cats - I found that very interesting. I'd never associated Cornwall with poverty.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Dickey
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 02:38 PM

First of all when I posted as Bobert it was an accident. I did it to some other folks too so I joined so it won't happen again.

In another thread Bobert stated "The US leads all *developed nations" in per capita poverty, infant mortality, incarceration rates and capital punishment"

I found that hard to believe so I started looking for the proof on the internet. I believe a person should have some knowledge and belief of the correctness of what they are stating before they state it.

I found there were statistics to base his claim on. on that site it said "National estimates of the percentage of the population lying below the poverty line are based on surveys of sub-groups, with the results weighted by the number of people in each group. Definitions of poverty vary considerably among nations. For example, rich nations generally employ more generous standards of poverty than poor nations." Therefore one would have to know how it is figured in the various countries or the percentages are meaningless.

I asked Bobert how it was figured and he did not respond in that thread which I considered the proper thread. I asked him again on other threads and finally I had to accuse him of slinking off into the bushes before he responded.

I lost track of the original thread where he stated those figures so I tried to find it using the Mudcat Forum search. That search only works up through 95 so I used Google and I found where he has made other similar statements plus some other statements in which are prima facie contradictions.

Statements such as percentages as I posted above and his statement that "Like they say, stats are for loosers....
You ain't gonna hear a bunch of stats outta me 'cause I don't need 'um...."

It is by assertion that Bobert while being intelligent, educated, experienced and a good entertainer, repeats things that he does not know to be true and accurate and he does not care if they are true and accurate. He just passes it on in hoping that someone else will believe them and thereby prove his point.

On the site I found data that supported what Bobert claimed. It had poverty in the US as 12% and the UK as 17% I know that can't be right. It sticks in my mind that somewhere Bobert said "western developed nations" so I assumed he was trying to exclude the UK because I believe it is in the eastern hemisphere.

All I want to from Bobert is how do the criteria for poverty and the other stats he posted, compare in the various countries?

While looking at the infant mortality rates I found discrepancies in the criteria for that statistic. For instance "in Switzerland, by contrast, an infant must be at least 30 centimeters long at birth to be counted as living. This restriction effectively excludes most infants weighing less than a kilogram and excludes many of the most vulnerable infants from Switzerland's relativity low infant mortality measure"

I bear no animosity for the UK. I regard the UK as the motherland of America. The birthplace of democracy and freedom. Therefore I doubt that there can be more poor people living there than in the US.

I do not believe that these numbers are accurate. I do not believe that 12% of Americans are poor and I do not believe that 17% in the UK are poor.

I would like to have an explanation from Bobert and I would like to hear what the Ukers here have to say about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 03:27 PM

I'm a UKer and I'm worn out with it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 09:34 PM

You are nuthin but a chickensh*t, Dickey...

You wanta talk poverty in the US then, for the unpteenth time, I'll invite you start a thread on it an' guess what???

I'll be there!!!

Don't mess with me on this one unless yer willin' to get yer butt whupped up on... A number of folks here have already leaid out some of the basic groundwork on where this will be going but it's teribly rude and disrespectfull, not to mention chickensh*t to use someone elses thread to use as yer personal attack thread about something that was mentioned insignificantly in a post...

You have made the mountain from the molehill an' if you have the balls, then start yer own danged thread and fight it out over there and there will be a number of us who will be more than happy to jump in over there...

Meanwhile, respect this forum an' let the author of ***this*** thread, which I ain't, have the freedom of not havin' it highjacked by some one with an axe to grind...

But after what eanjay, who I think is a newish menber, said in the last post, seems you have allready Martin Gobson'd this thread...

Real nice work, Dickey, at screwing up another thread...

Don't blame me, apl... This one is all yers...

Now, like I've asked over and over, you got somethin' to say about poverty in the US, have at it... in yer own thread!!!

I won't respond to you again in this thread on this subject because it disrespects this forum and the author of this thread... If you want to continue makin' an ass of yerself, have at it...

Have a nice day...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Dickey
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 10:35 PM

Bobert:

What was wrong with the thread where you originally posted your "facts"?

And you are the one with the personal attacks.

Let's start with the $1300 minimum for an apartment.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 08:59 AM

Like I said, "Start yer own thread" and say yer sorry to the author of this one now that you have killed it off...

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 01:52 PM

Sorry to return to the original thread...

In justa few short decades, only the mega-rich will be driving cars due to the supreme shortage of oil (if not global warming). A lot else will change profoundly, too. It is insecapable. It is justa matter of time. So calling Greens hypocrites does not really help the cause of humanity. BTW, how many anti-choice zealots want to close the abortion door for others now that they have had two or three of their own? How many prominent homophobes have been outed as frauds or have disowned members of their families out of "Christian" love? And anyway, just because any given Green is not as green as it is possible to be does not mean that non-Greens get a pass to sit back with smug superiority.

The Greens I know all drive higher mileage cars when they drive at all, or take the bus, train, bicycle, feet, and do many other things in their personal lives to reduce their impact on Mother Earth. Like eating vegetables instead of meat, meat-eating having an even more profound effect on the earth's environment than driving. Yes, it's true. Our impact on the environment from our eating habits are more profound than our impact from driving cars.

Go here: http://www.alternet.org/envirohealth/47668/


Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 02:28 PM

People can be responsible about certain issues without going to extremes. Everybody has to "live" even if they do support The Green Party, Friends of the earth etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Dickey
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 03:47 PM

Bobert:

Why didn't you answer in the other thread?

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=99097#1972115

Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 03:52 PM

I'm giving you full marks for persistence; I don't think I'd have the energy myself!