BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:32 AM

What I said, Keith, is that there are more heterosexual HIV cases in the UK every year than there are homosexual. I acknowledged CLEARLY the different origins and I said that was irrelevant - it could only be relevant if a person was racist about disease as well as homophobic. You think it is relevant, what does that say about you?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 10:26 AM

Not true, Keith, but good to see you have a sense of humour lurking behind that methematical propensity.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 10:15 AM

74.89% of contributors are in favour of more percentages.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 10:10 AM

Ho! Ho! ;-)

I can't believe this mess is still rolling on remorselessly. Horrifying.

So, I wonder when someone will propose a death penalty for gross stupidity?

I'll stop in in another 6 months or so if this thread is still inflicting itself upon the Universe, okay?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 10:03 AM

And it's a tense point in the final of the World Statistical Ping-Pong Championship. The crowd is holding its breath waiting for the next salvo of percentages to be smashed across the net............

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 09:21 AM

In your place, I would have said;
Heterosexual infection may be rare in UK now, but there is, and has been, a slow but steady increase in cases.
No exageration. No vital information witheld.
And above all, no hysterical abuse and name calling.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 08:50 AM

Thank you.
Yes, it was shit for brains Ake who first spotted and exposed your ruse.
He called you a cheat for it.
Even when the trick was exposed you went on trying to bluff it out.
You wanted to show that in UK,heterosexual infection had overtaken MSM infection.
It had not.
Only if you counted infections that happened in subsaharan Africa.
You know that Heterosexual infection is many many times more prevalent there.
That is twisting the truth.
That is what you accuse others of doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 08:29 AM

Here's what I said to you on Jan 11 (reprinted in full!)

my god, you are all barking mad. Good AIDS, bad AIDS, worthy sufferers or not. You're all sick! Why aren't you ashamed of yourselves?

Black, white, gay or straight, HIV will get you if you're not safe, celibate or monogamous. Where it enters hetero communities like in Africa it is a hetero disease. Where it enters gay communities it can be for a while, a gay thing. The numbers show it is on the way to being a mostly heterosexual problem in this country. Your racist fantasies notwithstanding.

Where is the evidence for this 2-3 or even 1 percent gay thing? I thought 10pc was the accepted estimate. It's not relevant to this discussion, it's just the first time I heard it.

So don't tell lies now to make your intervention look like something different.

The African-origin "fact" was a settled fact before you arrived. It was an irrelevant fact in the context of the discussion - a fact being used, wrongly, to support overt bigots and haters. Something, Keith, at which you excel.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 08:29 AM

Virusmyth.org.
That was an "and also" after I had posted solid gold BMJ evidence to support my claim.
Worryingly, it was one of the top Google hits after BMJ.
I did not read the whole site, just went to the bit about infectivity.
My mistake.
Sorry.
But still my case stood solid on the BMJ evidence.

You grossly exagerated the rise in heterosexual infection in UK.

I do not understand your last post. (I know. I am shitforbrains.)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 08:12 AM

Keith @ 08:01

Liar.

I reposted my comments of Jan 10 before you arrived on the scene, acknowledging the origin of infection and arguing it to be irrelevant in context.

You're a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 08:09 AM

You see, Keith, the irony here is that I accused Ake of being like you because he took the truth - that more straight people are diagnosed here each year than gay people - and tried to trim a bit off here, remove a bit there, disregard another piece of that truth, to make a sort of truth-based lie that supported his view of HIV being a "gay thing".

To which you jumped in and did...what?...exactly! You tried to twist the truth a bit, trim it a bit, your first effort came from the flat-earth branch of HIV debate (virusmyth.org). All in an effort to support the bigots.

Now you tell lies - that you came in to "correct me" with news about where straight people diagnosed in this country acquired HIV. That must be a lie because the black and white posts show that information was already accepted as true - but pointless in context. That was the argument.

Why does it matter to you that most straight UK HIV+ people acquired the disease somehere else? You seem to be saying that so long as the blacks and gays are doing worse, then you're happy with the 5 times increase in UK-acquired straight cases? Is that it Keith? That what you're all about. You're sick!

Keep going mate, your fingers are typing for the prosecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 08:01 AM

You could have just claimed it as an honest mistake.
That you were unaware that most of the "UK" hetersexual infections you were counting did not happen in UK at all.

Or that you forgot to tell us.

That really is twisting the truth.
Not something I have ever knowingly done.
Have I Royston?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 07:47 AM

Wrong, Keith. Stop diggging.

In the context - whether HIV was a disease that affected only gay people - it is true to say that the vast majority of newly diagnosed people living and shagging here in this country, are heterosexual . My point was that it doesn't matter - in context - where they caught it. In the post that you clipped those words out of, I was discussing the horrendous African statistics as further evidence that HIV was not - as was being claimed - a "gay" disease. That was the point, that was the context.

I was freely referencing the African or foreign acquired straight diagnoses in this country well before you arrived.

So, again, what is/was your bloody point? How often does this question have to be asked and by how many people before we get an answer from you?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 07:35 AM

No Royston.
Your case was "new UK infection rate by heterosexual transfer has been approaching and exceeding the homosexual transfer rate for a long time now - as at August 2009 the male/male new infections were only at 44% "
That is not true is it. They are still less.
You tried to mislead us.
Most of the hetero infections were in people infected in Africa where the epidemiology is totally different.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 07:10 AM

Oh goody. More percentages. I really must stop contributing to this thread, as I tend to keep forgetting that it's no longer about people.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 06:54 AM

And moreover, Keith, when I took a pot-shot at you on 10 January, I said...

Sorry Ake, you are too thick to get into an argument with me.

HPA figures.

http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1237970242135

Page 8, table 2. New HIV infections in the UK to end of June 2009. Not even the full-year figures.

I doubt you can do the math, so here we go.

Total number for H1 2009 - 2,896

Male to male vector - 887 cases = 30.63% of total

Straight sex vector - 1,256 cases = 43.37% of total

Oh dear Ake, aren't you a proper shit for brains. I clearly stated I was using the most recent (Aug 2009) figures. You are from the Keith school of evidence aren't you? Just find some out of date stuff that suits your prejudices? Hmm?

And as this argument is about HIV incidence, it hardly matters whether it is African HIV, Peruvian HIV or whatever. Oh, unless you are also racist about disease as well as homophobic.

Fact - in the UK, new HIV infections are predominantly a heterosexual problem.

So I acknowledged the different sources of infection - not you - and stated them before you ever pitched in. I continued to state them. So you did not enter this discussion to "correct me", you did it for an entirely different reason. I pressed you repeatedly to tell us what your point was, you refused. You just kept on trying to support the overt bigots while adding nothing new and having to retract some of your "facts" when you got caught out.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 06:40 AM

Keith: On Jan 10th and 11th you came on here, using my name as a term of abuse, and claiming that high hetero diagnoses figures proved infection was rapidly increasing here.
You did not mention that most of those diagnosed were not infected here at all.
That is twisting the truth

You make my point for me. Rising heterosexual diagnosis does indeed prove that HIV prevalence is rising in the heterosexual community. That is more HIV+ heterosexuals in the UK shagging and spreading the disease.

You are the one that wanted to strip from the figures black people, immigrants, people who happened to acquire the disease on holiday or "back home", blah blah blah, twisting and manipulating, just to prove that there are still, (after all that subterfuge) five times the number of straight, white, caught-it-here people in 2008 than there were in 2000.

So even on your mendacious terms, I was right. Straight HIV acquisitions are increasing here, for some groups more than others. All are increasing. And you are still trying to twist the truth. This post stands as another piece of evidence of my grounds for my opinion of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:03 AM

Well if this thread has done nothing else it has finally got GfS to reveal, unequivocally, the true depths of his fear and hatred.

The giveaway is not the physical revulsion against anal intercourse (some gay men, for better or worse, flinch similarly from the thought of the female genitals) but the point where he puts inverted oommas around the word 'love' when it comes to same-sex relationships.

I've found this before in extreme and incurable cases of homophobia. Gay sex they can kind of cope with, oddly enough, because they can easily maintain their phobic levels of horror. What really bugs them is the thought that same-sex couples can show long-term and in-depth feelings for each other.

The hard-core homophobe like GfS is terrified & threatened by this, because it challenges their core belief that only hetero couples can participate in that level of loving commitment. So the likes of GfS resort to abuse, ridicule and insult, all of which say so much more about the homophobe than about the object of their loathing.

GfS, you may think that I don't love my partner, I only 'love' him. How on earth (admittedly, not a planet you seem to inhabit) can you know that ? What evidence could you possibly, possibly have ? You don't know us, you know nothing about us, so I expect all you wil have to say in return is to trot out another slab of cod-Freudian sermonising.

And, by the way, I think I am still the only person in this thread to identify themselves as gay, so when you splutteringly fume about 'the homosexuals' who have written here, sorry dear but your paranoia is showing.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 02:21 AM

Richard, Lesbians have not figured much here because they are effectively at zero risk.
Royston, more accusations. You can not be stopped, but can you not see that it is wrong to accuse me in public but refuse to justify, explain or back up the accusation.
No bigotry from me.
No example given of me twisting the truth, unlike you.
On Jan 10th and 11th you came on here, using my name as a term of abuse, and claiming that high hetero diagnoses figures proved infection was rapidly increasing here.
You did not mention that most of those diagnosed were not infected here at all.
That is twisting the truth.
Has anyone, ever, seen me do such a thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 11:23 PM

I would like to see Ake describe exactly what he means by "liberal agenda" and the political and ethical philosophy that lies behind liberalism.

I think he's using "liberal" as some kind of buzz-word that he picked out of the air and really doesn't know diddly-squat about liberals or liberalism.

What is abundantly clear, and convinces me that Ake is clueless about liberalism, is that it is not the liberals who are trying to ghettoize and restrict any minority group, it is Ake! And, for that matter, GfS.

Don Firth



Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 08:22 PM

Ake, you're like the boring unfunny answer to Rab C Nesbitts acricature.

I can see you now in some pub somewhere, leaning over the tabel to whoever is there, unaware of whether its the same person that was there a minute ago, slurring your words:

"The problem .. (slip) ... the problem is the "liberal agenda" ... (slip) ... its all these bastards in the middle classes ... (slip) ... bloody hypocrites ..."

... and slowly but surely people learn to avoid you cos all you have to offer is bile and bad breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 07:59 PM

This from Keith on another thread.

"Lox re me not seeing AIDS as gay or African, my post on 21st Jan
"Globally HIV / AIDS is overwhelmingly a disease of heterosexual people both in absolute number and in terms of the percentage of sufferers"
Yes, I do agree."

This in conjunction with Keiths earlier dissociation from GfS, not to mention the speed with which he was prepared to retract and apologize over the new infections rates, very clearly evidence that he may be treading a path close to Ake's, but they are heading for entirely different destinations.


Talking of Ake,

He posted as follows:

"It should be obvious to everyone here that Keith and Sanity are commenting from two completely different points of view, both valid in their own way, but both different in concept"

hmmm ...

I wonder if he worked that out when he read Keiths post as follows:

"That is not what I am saying GFS."


Tune in next week to hear Ake explain his hypotheses that at some level the pope may be involved with the catholic church, and that bears squatting behind trees may have something to do with high concentrations of methane in woodland areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 07:52 PM

Fuck sake Richard....I've worked out that you're a radical and too much of a revolutionary to be side tracked

I can't understand why you of all people can't see the hypocricy in the "liberal" mindset

Keith and I are at opposite ends of the spectrum politically, but I'm not going to put on a blindfold because he doesn't share my political views.
As far as I am concerned all these threads, and the ones on race are about not sexual behaviour, but the use of sexual and racial politics to serve the "liberal agenda"

Its not people like Keith who hold back the political change we both want to see, but the the slimy hypocritical dumbed down centre!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 07:38 PM

""The only thing they want to hear is, I want to do, what I want to do, I have the right to impose that on the rest of society,""

Care to explain just what it is that you think is being "imposed" on society by gays. As far as I can see the imposition is in the other direction, with bigots and homophobes trying their hardest to impose second class citizenship on gays.

What part do you not understand of the statement that "95 percent of male homosexuals are HIV negative?

Does this gel with claims of mass promiscuity?.....NO!
Does it suggest that they are a danger to society?.....NO!

Do You, Keith, and Ake have a personal axe to grind?.....HELL YES!

You don't like gays, you want them controlled, criminalised, and what YOU call "cured", not as stated for their good, but for your satisfaction.

You are all three bigots! "By their actions shall ye know them".

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 07:01 PM

Well, I think I have Freedom From Sanity (conveniently "FFS") figured out. He's terrified he might by mistake catch something. Now why he's scared of that would be anyone's guess.   Maybe it's because his clear cut distinction between the reproductive system and the digestive system would discriminate against the time-honoured courtship ritual of the kiss, and also against oral sex.

But I cannot see what Keith is trying to achieve or why, if it isn't (as he says it isn't) a desire to increase prejudice against gay men (funny how it isn't gay women too) and Africans in general (although not, he says, because they are black, or shouldn't be here in the first place, in that in the immigration thread he sought to assure us that his views opposing immigration were in no way based on colour).

Ake appears to be adding to the prejudice displayed elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 05:58 PM

Royston you are incorrigible.
My my such vireolic rhetoric!You must be having a right laugh!

It should be obvious to everyone here that Keith and Sanity are commenting from two completely different points of view, both valid in their own way, but both different in concept

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 05:45 PM

You're getting silly again girls!

Getting back to Roystons post about the impossibility of compulsary testing. As far as immigrants are concerned, surely it would not be too difficult to include compulsory testing in the requirments for UK citizenship?

To deal with male homosexuals and introvenus drug users, these people would be required to present themselves for testing, in their own interests and in the interests of their respective communities.
Failing to present for the test would have to be viewed as dangerous behaviour and carry some sort of legal penalty.

Just as a final point, homosexuals with hiv in Cuba were not "locked up in prison, where they were likely to be sodomised", but confined in sanitoria, descriptions of which and the very excellent treatment afforded to them there, can be found in my link above

Before you start screaming about unfair treatment, universal hiv testing in UK/USA would be a complete waste of money, money which could be better spent on hiv/aids treatment for all sufferers.

Compulsory testing should only be used when infection rates in any group rises above a certain percentage level

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 05:41 PM

Thank you Good for Shit,

You've neatly proven:

(a) Your true malignant nature

(b) The sort of harmful support and succour that Keith's slanted, bigoted manipulation of truth dressed up as impartial reason gives to horrors like you - the sort of people that have "kill a queer for Christ" fender-stickers.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 04:36 PM

You can't even imagine, GfS.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 04:16 PM

Lox: "I think ...."

How does it feel?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 04:07 PM

I think Keith meant exactly what he said and nothing more or less than that as is consistent with his modus operandum.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 03:40 PM

Oh, Keith, I know you were posting another's quote...if that's what you meant...

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 03:39 PM

I know...It's what I'm saying, and I'm not intimidated to say it, either!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 03:23 PM

That is not what I am saying GFS.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 03:02 PM

Correction: Last paragraph should read..."are far deeper ingrained than that, of a stupid political 'persuasion' being tried to ennoble a bad habit!!!"

Not: "...are far deeper ingrained that a stupid political 'persuasion' being tried to ennoble a bad habit!!!"

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 02:56 PM

Keith: "You dismiss the knowledge and experience of the WHO.
You can provide better informed opinion? Why don't you?

"Rather than just accept you were wrong, you persisted in trying to support the bigots"
I am fallible. It is not always possible to spend enough time getting my head around all the stuff in these sites, but what have I actually been wrong about?
The later figures still supported my statements of fact. They only differed in degree from the earlier ones which were only 6 years old.
I retracted the virus myth data because of its source, but did you find any fault in the data I extracted?

Now please, what have I said that was"

Keith, It should be obvious, by now, that the homosexuals in here, do not care about any information that even remotely 'suggests' that their lifestyle, is not exactly the award winning paradise they'd like us to believe, nor do they like to be REMINDED that CHOICE has a lot more to do with their 'cop outs' than merely being 'victims' of some sort of 'lucky' draw of the deal!

The only thing they want to hear is, I want to do, what I want to do, I have the right to impose that on the rest of society, and they want the rest of society to think that it is as normal as rain....just as normal as men and women reaching to the other gender, having babies, and raising them to be productive human beings, who produce other human beings. Nor should we tolerate being accused of being 'bigoted' because we don't want our offspring being tolerant of their families, finding HIV, STD's and the sort, an 'acceptable' dilemma!!...nor those who do, a healthy part of our society!!! Most people who live 'normal and productive' lives, don't go around worrying about those topics, anyway!!! Do you?? We are just are sick and tired of having our noses rubbed in it, and we, have our rights too!

So, run along, go play your little games, convince yourselves that its about 'love', and not sex, adopt children, so you can 'play house' and don't forget to teach them that there is a difference between the digestive system, and the reproductive system, and that when either one is not used for the intended purpose of what they were suppose to be for, you may find yourselves a little bit sick....maybe a little more than your thresh hold for pain is willing to admit.

Perhaps you should stop bullshitting us, with the lies you bullshit yourselves with!...and yet, do what you want..as long as it doesn't hurt another.

This stuff really pisses them off, because they know its true. It's the truth they wish that would just go away....but unless you're a practicing homosexual, BOTH of one's attributes of being living, are far deeper ingrained that a stupid political 'persuasion' being tried to ennoble a bad habit!!!

With Regards, to all living things,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 02:48 PM

How can you say you think someone a bigot, but not be able to cite one bit of bigotry?
That is, er, bigotry.
looking back over the last couple of pages, you actually said that focused interventions were going on and were valuable, alongside basic health education including AIDS awarenes for all.
How do we disagree?
You also said you would be happy for students to be told about ALL the relevant risks as long as it was not implied that lower risk meant no risk.
No argument from me.
I think that the only serious difference between us is that you believe a heterosexual epidemic is starting that may be comparable to the situation for MSMs. I have found no evidence for that, and I note that de Cock thinks it unlikely, which I take as strong evidence to the contrary.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 01:55 PM

Keith, I have explained why what you say is regarded by me, and I suspect by others, as prejudicial and harmful. It is an opinion, my opinion, the grounds are mine. Take it or leave it.

de Cock did not say that mass education programs were of no benefit and he did not say they should be abandoned, those are things that you choose to infer and I say you are wrong, for the grounds I have given. It is my opinion. Take it or leave it.

If you say that your position is a "fact" then you are a liar. Yours is an opinion, I choose to leave it.

My point is that your "facts" rarely support your "opinions". You select and twist the truth to try to match your opinions. Your opinions and the way you express them are prejudicial and harmful because they give false succour to bigots, whether or not you yourself are one; and I believe that you are one. Take it or leave it.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 08:09 AM

Now you say that I oppose education in schools.
Did the voices tell you that too.
In schools we teach ALL students as much as we can about risks to equip them to make informed choices.
That is what I do.

You dismiss the knowledge and experience of the WHO.
You can provide better informed opinion? Why don't you?

"Rather than just accept you were wrong, you persisted in trying to support the bigots"
I am fallible. It is not always possible to spend enough time getting my head around all the stuff in these sites, but what have I actually been wrong about?
The later figures still supported my statements of fact. They only differed in degree from the earlier ones which were only 6 years old.
I retracted the virusmyth data because of its source, but did you find any fault in the data I extracted?

Now please, what have I said that was "prejudicial and harmful"?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 07:07 AM

Keith, the overall summation of your contrubtion is prejudicial and harmful, however much you initially tried to dress it as neutral academic interest and however quickly you try to back away from it now.

You still say that you came into this out of academic, factual interest because you say I was misleading on Jan 10 and 11. You say you wanted to to correct that.

Your opening attempt was with data from virusmyth.org - I know you retracted it, but the fact you even attempted to use it tells us a lot about you.

Rather than just accept you were wrong, you persisted in trying to support the bigots.

Time after time you tried to support them, you had more ideas that you had to drop when they were proven to false or just wrong, and you still didn't give up trying.

All your attempts failed, you're still trying.

And you claim the status of a neutral academic? Don't make me laugh.

All you've got left is the opinion of Dr. de Cock who is in a minority of experts in his field. In this country alone, 1,130 people straigh, white people caught HIV through straight sex in this country. Presumably because they were ingorant of the risk of whatever they were doing? And education is pointless, you say? Really? And even more than 1,130 will (on trend) contract the disease in 2009 and more than that in 2010. No point educating? Educate thyself, teacher!

Gay people, drug users, prostitutes-to-be; they all go to school. Mass education programs are useless? Really, Keith? Are you so sure?

Your prejudices are clear, you are desperate to find support for them, you fail. You try to support the overt and honest bigots, you fail. You're still at it, you're failing.

These are the grounds for my opinion of you. Yes, it is just an opinion. Yes, I may be wrong. But the grounds for holding that opinion are clear. I think you hold some deep right wing prejudices, your commnents and behaviours are harmful.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 02:50 AM

Personally, I think if you find your spouse, who was not promiscuous, and you valued that in your partner, enough to be that way, for the person you were to love, enough to feel as if passing it to your kids, and being as you love one another, there wouldn't be the controversy about who has more cases of AIDS/HIV!..would there? but we always make allowances, for the lowest of intelligence!..You don't think so????...ok, ......its like arguing about having one bullet, or two, because playing Russian Roulette, feels good!.........

....but then half of an attribute of life, of all healthy living things is missing anyway...do you ever wonder how that impacts the other 'half' that's left????

Here Smedley for you.... wow!...just love the words

Don Firth, Great double meaning!

Ake, Something in there for you, too!

Regards,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 02:23 AM

A quick observation on Cuba. Throughout the 1970s & 80s, the Castro regime routinely imprisoned homosexual men (adopting the Soviet model, no doubt). This was always a point of contention between those on the Left who wanted to support Cuba come what may, and those involved in gay politics who pointed out that the persecution of homos somewhat dented Cuba's progressive status.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 01:44 AM

In making and expressing false assumptions about me without any evidence except that I dare to question your dogma, you are preaching vile prejudice and harm against me.

In the immigration thread, as I said all along, I was only passing on the views of and data provided by Balanced Migration, a group of mainstream politicians from all parties and ethnic minorities.
I reopened the thread when the Communty Secratary of this government, and Brown himself, expressed identical views to mine.
See that post here.thread.cfm?threadid=124011&messages=405&page=1&desc=yes#2778277

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 06:16 PM

I restricted myself to providing factual and statistical information, and attempting to make honest interpretation of it all.

"you have laboured tirelessly but pointlessly to try to "prove" that HIV is a gay disease and a disease of black people"

I can clear that up right now. It is not. You must have misunderstood me.
I would only go so far as to say that outside Africa it is predominantly a disease of gay men, and inside Africa is where most of its victims are found.

"your efforts at distortion" I am not aware of any.
I only joined this latter part of the thread because you were making misleading statements (Jan 10th and 11th)which I made efforts to clarify.

"you complained that the majority population were being unnecessarily and wastefully "bothered" by HIV/AIDS education programs "

The WHO, who know more about this than all of us put together, say that more lives could be saved if programmes were focused on high risk groups. Why would I contradict WHO? Why do you?

"You opined that maybe your effort as a teacher had been wasted educating "normal" (my word, your meaning) people about the dangers of HIV"

I teach classes. I teach them all the same thing. The gay lads have mostly not even come out at school age. Where do you get these ideas?
Is it voices?

"you expressed resentment that you weren't able to tell stidents not to have sex with black people - as if that would keep them safe."

Only abstinance is safe. Everything else is a risk.That is what I tell them.Why do you say I do otherwise?
As with drugs, where I can talk about one drug carrying more risk than another, I do think knowledge is better than ignorance. That BBC link I think said that someone born in Africa is about 30 times more likely to be infected. I am uncomfortable about witholding significant information. I said it was not a big issue for me, and suggested there might be social or political justification for witholding it.

Now, you neglected to point out where I preached vile prejudice and harm. A quote would be helpful.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 04:56 PM

Keith, you have laboured tirelessly but pointlessly to try to "prove" that HIV is a gay disease and a disease of black people. This was in the context of a discussion where bigots were arguing that society needed to "blame" these groups and curtail their civil rights so that HIV/AIDS would be "solved"

You did this in the context of a discussion in which your efforts at distortion served (and were intended) only to try to bolster the arguments of Ake and GfS - whom I think you will agree are self-professed (even if at times in denial) homophobic and racist bigots.

When all your attempts at obfuscation dressed up as the neutral reporting of what you claimed were "facts" failed, you began to argue a moral position in which you complained that the majority population were being unnecessarily and wastefully "bothered" by HIV/AIDS education programs (flying in the face the rising figures for hetero HIV acquisitions in the UK)

You opined that maybe your effort as a teacher had been wasted educating "normal" (my word, your meaning) people about the dangers of HIV and you expressed resentment that you weren't able to tell stidents not to have sex with black people - as if that would keep them safe.

Views like that are harmful - to the vulnerable people you dislike and to the very people that you claim to protect. If you genuinely believe some of the things that you say, I question whether or not you are fit to teach on those subjects.

Keith, most people here suspect you (from your posting history in general) to hold a number of rather right wing prejudices; that you are a right wing bigot. You need to consider, if you believe us all to be mistaken, just what is it that you say and do that leads people to hold that suspicion of you.

If it walks like one and talks like one...

If the cap fits...

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 01:41 PM

You may think me vile Royston. You are entitled to have that opinion and to express it.
You also say I preach vile prejudice and harm.
I believe that can not be justified.
I invite you, please, to justify or withdraw that nasty accusation.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 01:28 PM

But Ake, no country has ever had compulsory testing of any group, because how do yo know who to test?

The cuban model is for education, so that at risk people understand their risk and see the benefit of getting tested. The cuban model aggressively campaigns for social acceptance of at risk groups and social tolerance of HIV status, to remove the stigma and fear of testing and diagnosis.

In short, the cuban model deals with vile people like you and Keith and the vile prejudices ad harm that you preach.

I think the cuban model is a very good one indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 12:27 PM

"I just read what you post. Homosexuality is inherently risky. Homosexuals should be cured. The best model for dealing with homosexuals with AIDS is quarantine"

"Homosexual practice is very risky"....no argument, the figures speak for themselves
"Homosexuals could or should be cured"....Where did I say that?
"Homosexuals should be quarantined".....For a small period of time, combined with a full treatment regime, comprising full contact tracing, treatment with anti virals and the other components in the Cuban model.
This should apply to all who test positive for hiv aids

There should be compulsory testing of at "risk groups".(male homosexals, introvenus drug abusers, sex workers, African/East European immigrants)

Nothing else appears to work, as infection rates among homosexuals and African immigrants are still very high (comparitively) and rising steadily.

How high are you prepared to see infection rates go, before considering an element of compulsion?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 10:27 AM

The times, they are a changin'.... and not before time!

Happy to be a liberal :-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 11:22 PM

Excellent point, Ebbie.

The problem with Ake is that if everyone here disagrees with him, he decides that they're all "liberals" and simply dismisses anything they say, no matter how solidly it's backed up.

And with callous disregard for what liberals actually stand for.

Don Firth