BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)

Subject: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Ed.
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 05:22 PM

I'm terribly sorry to have to break this to you, and the fact that you make up a fairly large proportion of the world's population makes it hard, but I have a duty to tell the truth.

Deep breath... God does not exist

If anyone can give me decent evidence as to why I'm wrong, I'd like to here it, along with something more substantial than "mysterious ways"

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 05:25 PM

Everyone has a choice of what to believe...I suggest that as long as they have fully studied all the religions available and made a considered decision as a result..then how can they be wrong? Are you sure you are right? What is the evidence which led you to this conclusion?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 05:25 PM

You are an ill-mannered lout.

1) Become a member then start this thread.
2) I fail to see why anyone on this forum should give you a damned thing, and that includes an answer to an ill-stated question which--on the surface--seems to be trolling.
3) PFO.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 05:35 PM

Seems a rational sort of chap.

Compare the behaviour of theists over the centuries with the behaviour of agnostics and atheists and humanists over the centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 05:35 PM

Can you prove "God does not exist", Ed??? I mean, you are the one who has made the statement... Seems that the burden of proof falls on you, pal...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 05:38 PM

I kinda like the quality of Hinduism that denotes various gods for various systems.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 05:39 PM

Another troll thread started by a - DEEP BREATH - Guest.

"Here" evidence? Or "hear" evidence?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 05:43 PM

On the other hand, look at all the fuss those buffoons are raising because that teacher let her class name a teddy bear Mohamed. Sound like a typical religious reaction to me.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 05:51 PM

Ho hum.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 05:55 PM

Ya got any news, pal? Or are you working on a high-school term paper?


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 05:57 PM

Actually, I would say that is an atypical religious reaction. Of billions of religious people only a small percentage act like that. But they are the proverbial squeaky wheel. Good, upstanding religious folk rarely make the news.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 05:57 PM

Well, I exist and I created everything and everyone here.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 06:00 PM

Heh! Yeah, he comes here like he's got a revelation to lay before us all, doesn't he? It's like having someone draw you aside into a quiet corner, check around in all directions to make sure no one will distract the two of you, and say......"Look, I hate to break it to you, but there IS no Santa Claus and no tooth fairy either. I am so brilliant that I figured this out all by myself. If you want to bow down and worship someone, let it be me."

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 06:01 PM

Oh, Rap[aire....no,. you didn't. Sure you exist, but it's probationary, you recall.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 06:09 PM

"Can you prove "God does not exist", Ed??? I mean, you are the one who has made the statement... Seems that the burden of proof falls on you, pal..."

Sorry, Bobert, but no-one can prove a negative. The "burden of proof" still lies with the theist. I suppose, strictly speaking, he should start with the 'null hypothesis' (ie. there is no God) and then consider the evidence (if there is any) to the contrary.

If, on the other hand, the theist maintains that he relies on 'faith', and needs no proof, then he cannot demand any sort of proof from the atheist and there are no grounds for discussion. Nevertheless, if the theist resorts to these tactics he cannot demand that the atheist either share or respect his 'faith'.
I suppose this explains why some theists have used, and are still using, violence, or the threat of it, to get their own way.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 06:15 PM

Thank you, Shimrod. You express my thoughts far better than me.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 06:16 PM

Santa Claus comes in in the "S" section. Tooth fairy in the "T" section which immediately follows... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: skipy
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 06:17 PM

For me, there is no God, there has never been a God & there will never be a God.
For the rest of you, believe whatever you want too, you have the right to, but don't try & push it onto anyone else!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 06:22 PM

Right, skipy. ;-) Did you notice that the whole premise of this thread as it was launched by Guest above was to push a certain point of view on everyone else? One wonders what the payoff would be for him if everyone in the world suddenly converted and agreed with him? I guess he would have to find a new Everest to climb then... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 06:31 PM

How about out for a nice walk? Breathe the fresh air?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 06:43 PM

"Good, upstanding religious folk rarely make the news."


                You're right! I've never found one, or even heard of one. They must stay pretty well hidden.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: gnu
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 06:44 PM

Screw that, LH. That would just prove that it's Goddamn cold outside. Here, that is... and I wouldn't force the cold northwest wind here tonight on anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 07:40 PM

I'm inclined to think that ignosticism is the best option although I am rather drawn to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: bobad
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 07:50 PM

There is one true god and this Church Of Bob is his church.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 07:51 PM

Not another one of those threads?! *sighs and shakes head*

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 08:00 PM

Jaysus, didn't we hammer this whole arena to death about two months ago? What is it with these crazy fucks who think the context of the world is the context of their peabrains? Seriously, if you were going to barge into a community with such portentous announcements, doncha think you'd bother seeing what went before on the topic? That is, if you were even 20% literate?


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 08:12 PM

He's B.a.a.a.a.a.a.ck!

(Puts fingers in ears)

La la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 08:44 PM

Of course there is a God, and he's a mean SOB. How do I know that?? Because 98% of the time I hear someone call upon him, it is to "damn it," whatever 'it' may be.

So there you are...

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 08:49 PM

He seems to be present a lot when sex is going on too...

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:17 PM

Of course he's present when sex is going on, Foolestroupe! God is supposed to be omnipresent, correct? That means everywhere. Not just somewhere, everywhere.

That almost works with Bob Dylan, but not quite. I distinctly remember one or two situations I was in and Bob wasn't there. It almost works with Shatner too....but again, just short by a whisker.

But here's what I really think about it. People who start provocative, useless threads like this one should be doomed to eternal harassment by people exactly like themselves, but with precisely the opposite outward beliefs! Judgmental, self-righteous pests with a zeal to convert, in other words.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:29 PM

So who's YOUR nemises then, LH?

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:39 PM

I'd say that would be whichever woman I happened to fall in love with at any given time in the past. ;-) They tend to attain a godlike stature and power in my daily existence.

I do not, however, demand that others worship them too!

I'm not sure that's what you were really asking me, but do I really care? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:43 PM

"...self-righteous pests with a zeal to convert,..."


                     I would agree. A zeal to convert is a pain in the ass no matter which side of the divide they're on.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:45 PM

"I'm not sure that's what you were really asking me, but do I really care? ;-)"

And you think YOU are talking to someone who cares? :-P

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:45 PM

We have yet to hear from the eminent and imminent philosopher "Shane" McBride on this subject. Or Cletus and the boys. Or the Little Pissant.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:48 PM

You're right Rapaire, but it looks like The Troll has once again stirred the pot and started a long thread agaiin, so - must be happy to have 'achieved goal' again...

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:49 PM

I am in fact presently cutting a deal with that movie star he is so infatuated with to start a thread about him, about the non-existence of Shatner.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:49 PM

It is frustrating that somebody would start a thread like this without letting other posters know who they are.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:52 PM

Uh...that pic of Bob? Seems to me it looks a lot like Michael J....

I think my mind has finally snapped.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:54 PM

I meant, of course, the unforgettable Winona Ryder; she has been apprised of Little Hawk's vulnerability and is interested in providing a foil...



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 10:02 PM

Yeah, yeah... ;-)

Winona can do whatever she wants to. I don't mind.

As for Shane, I don't think he's given much thought to God, one way or the other. He's had his mind on other things entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 10:25 PM

"There is no God...blank film at 11:00!"

Gee, Ed.... now that you have made it so clear and positive---or is that negative? ...I guess everyone will just nod wisely and quit going to church. And I won't have to have these learned debates any more. *sigh*...you've ruined my fun!


(you know what the answer is? God didn't really create the universe...it was some other Supreme Being using his name!)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 10:31 PM

"I meant, of course, the unforgettable Winona Ryder; she has been apprised of Little Hawk's vulnerability and is interested in providing a foil..."

If she provided LH with Saran Wrap instead . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 10:43 PM

Ye gods (if you'll pardon the expression)!! Look at all the people who bit!!

Now, just where the hell is Billy Goat Gruff when you need him!??

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 10:44 PM

Who's Winona Ryder ?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 10:45 PM

Oh you mean Winona Laura Horowitz.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 10:51 PM

. . . or out of saran wrap . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 10:57 PM

I have a duty to tell the truth

Sometimes it's hard to tell the diff between a duty and a doodie. This sounds to me like a diaperful of the latter.

(Or perhaps alcohol is involved here?)

In any case, most of the grownups around here tend not to yell FIRE in pubs. Oh, one CAN do that-- just as one can start a thread proclaiming either "There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)" or (as I am sometimes tempted), "Atheists are Ignorant and Often Rude."

But if IRL we tend not to do these things, sometimes emulating one's IRL restraint is a good thing, even at Mudcat (the apparent portal into the absurd).

~Susan


~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 11:01 PM

GUEST,Ed better watch his step, there!

He's obviously unaware that God has been stirring to activity lately. After all, He registered His disapproval of the filming of The Passion of the Christ by zapping the guy playing Jesus (James Caviezel) with a bolt of lightning. That's a fact! Not only that, He let the assistant director have it twice! Now, why He didn't go after Mel Gibson is a mystery to me, but then, who am I to argue with God!??

GUEST,Ed is risking a lightning bolt up the arse!

Don Firth

P. S. I notice he hasn't been back. Just walking in, let one, and left. That oughta tell you something. . . .

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 11:02 PM

I have a foil I can supply to either LH or Winona. Or an epee. Or even a saber.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 11:28 PM

You shouldn't have signed your name, Rapaire -- it was supposed to be eponymous.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 12:06 AM

aaaaaaaaaa
death to infidel teddy bears.

aaaayaaaayaaaa yaaaa
asalamalakem

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 12:59 AM

If Winona Ryder had Terry Gross's voice, there would be a God----and I would start praying to her!

I know you Ryder, you gonna miss me when I'm gone...
You gonna miss your lovin' baby from rollin' in your arms!

I still feel that all religions are wishful thinking---! But that's just me. You all are cool as all hell---no matter what you believe. "You can be in my dream, if I can be in yours!?!?"---Bobby D.

Love,

Art

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 02:22 AM

"Sorry, Bobert, but no-one can prove a negative"
Sorry, Shimrod, that statement is incorrect. One can prove one did not commit a crime, with a good alibi. One can prove the absence of oxygen when a lit match goes out. One can prove many negatives. The burden of proof lies still with the one who made the original assertion - and that's all it is, an assertion, if not a taunt.

Just because a blind man recognises no shapes, it does not mean that they do not exist. Nothing is self-evident. Indeed those who believe in self-evident truths, are the ones denying logic a chance. Now, apply this to the opening thread.

Though Peace said it much more succinctly with his point 3 above.

Some people have far too much time in their hands, or are letting life pass them by.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 03:47 AM

"a blind man recognises no shapes"

Now THAT is NOT true, but I will admit that a group of blind men will give conflicting reports on an elephant...

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 04:09 AM

If people feel the need to worship something, then I suppose the thing which gives life to every living organism on earth would fit the bill.
To worship the sun, seems much more sensible than some figment of our imagination. Some father figure, who has been moulded to reinforce all our human insecurities for the benefit of "organised religion"....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Slag
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 04:24 AM

That certainly is a "faith" statement, Guest (Ghost?)! Get a grip. God told me that "the fool has said in his heart 'there is no God'". He also said that a person's ways always seem right to himself but it always leads to his or her destruction.

Once you establish a name (no fear, no shame)come again and ask the same.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Justaguy
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 04:36 AM

I think the answer to Guest, Ed should have been a simple "okay". Could have stopped this thread in it's tracks or perhaps driven Guest,Ed completely over the edge.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: skarpi
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 04:47 AM

O dear , here we go again .

Dear Ed , start looking , you´ll be surprised what you will
discover .

you will find , what is called God very near you ,
you just have to look for it .

it does not matter , if its , christian , Islam, Budda , we all
have to look and find .


and when you find it , what you are looking for , then tell us
what is there .

I know where to find it , but you ´ll have to find it your self
noone can do it for you .

All the best Skarpi Iceland

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 10:49 AM

Hey, yeah....besides, consider this: there are MANY Gods in this society. They're all over the place. One's God is whatever one has the most faith in, and to whom one gives one's unquestioning allegiance!

So...here are some of the ruling Gods of this society:

1. Money!

2. Sex!

3. Good looks!

4. Fame!

5. Doctors! (That white suit somehow confers an aura of omnipotence and omniscience to so many people.)

6. Science! (If the scientific community says its true, it MUST be true...right? And if they say it's good for you, it MUST be good for you, right? Ummm...well...check again in a few decades...cos they may have changed their minds.)

7. the President! (If you like his party and policies...if not, you may think he's not God at all, but the Devil incarnate.)

I submit that most of the above rank higher in the estimation and daily attention of the average American than the God of religion...specially # 1 Money. Money is the ruling God of society, and it's a totally made-up thing that people invented. It's worth only what they all agree to pretend it's worth. It's a fiction masquerading as a daily necessity. It's real in effect, but not real in itself.

MONEY is the God that rules your life, Ed. It's a false God. Do something about that. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 10:53 AM

LH, my friend, I think that is the smartest, most succinct post I've ever seen from you. That was a VERY DAMN-FINE JOB!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 10:57 AM

[I ACCIDENTALLY HIT SUBMIT BUTTON]

Besides, LH, your post opens the question to:

When we discuss "God"'s existence, are we trying to speak of our opinion of the objective reality, or of whatever God we create, ourselves?

THERE's the thorny topic we usually dance around, here-- have done so for years myself, without taking that aspect of it apart. It's a mad dance!

[applying Rap-sword]

There. Split to flinders.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:02 AM

Thanks, Susan. ;-) It's been on my mind for years, observing people as they go about their daily worship, quite unaware of the nature of the God(s) they really believe in.

That is exactly why in the Bible (and in many other holy books from numerous other religions) it says "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me". They may not say it in exactly the same words, but they all say it, and they have very good reason for doing so.

There was at least one important one I forgot to put on the list of "Gods":

Country! (patriotism) - A God that has been used as the prime motivator for countless wars and other organized efforts of humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:06 AM

I commend you, Susan, for resurrecting the fine old word "flinders". It is a noble term, and served well for centuries, and should be allowed to fade from disuse.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:07 AM

There was at least one important one I forgot to put on the list of "Gods":

Another one: "winning"-- that competitive thing.

"Controlling" would be another.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stu
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:09 AM

He certainly does exist - his name is Martin O'Neill and he's going to get the Villa into Europe next season.

Back of the net!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:09 AM

ETYMOLOGY:        Middle English flendris, possibly of Scandinavian origin; akin to Norwegian flindra, splinter.

I submit that you are not discussing Gods, but only flinders of Gods! :D Or perhaps the icons of aggregate sin.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:19 AM

Hey Stigweard you almost spoiled my post.

I have only one God and that is Aston Villa. I have followed them through thick and thin, without question, even when times were bad.
Martin O'Neill is a disciple.
The eleven players are the bread of life and the fishes are the clean shirts hanging out ready for the next match.
The crowd are the followers.

You religious people can think what you like but you are so far off beam.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:40 AM

The "burden of proof" still lies with the theist.

Sorry, shimrod, the burden of proof is with the one postulating the theory.

Still waiting, Ed.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:45 AM

Susan, YES, that IS actually what religions are mostly about.

Controlling the people and not allowing them to stray from the "RULES" of the damned dogmas. All those "laws" in the bible. What better way to rule over wandering people in the desert---or in the chaos of the modern world, for that matter. Extrapolate to modern Jehovah's Witnesses who literally believe every word in the "book" (not "Rise Up Singing") to be true utterances of the divine that MUST be obeyed -- as interpreted by them---the willing SLAVES.

Pretty sad!

Art

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 12:16 PM

Art, them's fighting words, my friend. (My husband and I are in the ministry, and we know many other in the ministry who are not at all about what you described.)

So heads-up! :~)

I proposed controlling people as a societal pattern, not a merely religious one. The desire to control transcends religion.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 12:38 PM

"Sorry, shimrod, the burden of proof is with the one postulating the theory."

In this case, I'm not sure that I'm prepared to accept that. After all modern science seems to provide a better (if necessarily incomplete) picture of how the world works than religion ever did - and with far fewer logical inconsistencies.

Nevertheless, as the bases for their 'fairy tales' crumble away, some religious people seem to be becoming more and more militant: demanding that we accept and respect their various faiths without question and even demanding that we all live by them. Some of these people even goes as far murdering people in order to impose their dogmas (eg. Oklahoma City, 9/11, Madrid, the London Tube bombings etc.).

The initiator of this thread has been called a "troll" - and maybe he is - but he raises questions which are worth asking - especially in the context of the modern world.

Let's put it this way: if you've got deeply held religious beliefs then fine - I hope that they make you happy and that you find solace in them. But if you try to impose them on me, or demand that I live by them, then you're going to have to convince me that those beliefs have some basis in fact - otherwise you're going to have a fight on your hands!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 01:08 PM

Actually this is an interesting thread by Guest Eddy.

Good points raised (exception being Wynona Horowitz)

A good read if anyone is interested is (if I may suggest) "God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything" by Christopher Hitchens.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 01:11 PM

Can I suggest that the 'Burden of proof' lies with either side..ie whoever is trying to prove or disprove has it!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 01:49 PM

Re: Burden of Proof

This is a debating term, right, a specific forensics obligation?


Some people posting in this sort of thread prefer debate according to whatever debating conventions they learned, usually in college I gather.

Others prefer humor.

Others prefer exploration.

Others sharpen old saws. (Art T. plays his musically.)

Some are displaying old hurts and resentments.


That's just the nature of Mudcat threads-- here there are no "facilitators" guiding dicussions that, IRL, a facilitator might conduct with ground rules agreed among the participants in advance.

We can REFER to rules here but there actually aren't very many and people are not usually all following the same rulebook.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 02:25 PM

"Controlling" and "winning" are definitely big ones on the list, Susan. Good of you to note that.

Art, "Controlling the people and not allowing them to stray from the "RULES" of the damned dogmas" also applies to the activities of all political organizations, military organizations, police forces, unions, political states, political parties, professional organizations, and even many (if not most) of the common social clubs. They (virtually) ALL seek to control their membership through a set of rules and dogmas. And they concoct the most wonderful sounding reasons and justifications for doing it too, but it's mostly about control... ;-) The fact that people also do that in organized religion only shows that it is a nasty tendency which tends to creep into ALL organized forms of hierarchical human activity. It is not seen exclusively in religion, then, but in every field of collectively organized human endeavour...and it is the bane of free thinkers in every field as well.

Every power structure is lorded over by its leaders and their underlings who are appointed as controllers over the general membership. Only if their own character (leaders and underlings) is impeccable, and their ideals likewise, and their judgement excellent, will they avoid the abuses commonly involved in controlling other people.

You can use your power to do good or evil when you have authority over others. You can enforce rules wisely or foolishly. This is as true in religious organizations as it is in any other organizations. Therefore, I see no reason to single out religion for damnation while ignoring the rest of the very similar BS that goes on in our lives.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Slag
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 02:52 PM

God, this was such an easy button for the TROLL to push. To bad this didn't occur on another thread. Nonetheless (said the Fool), Yes LH. One of the great theologians of the last century, Paul Tillich said (paraphrasticly) that what a man esteems highest in his heart is his god, and you drove that nail all the way in.

Art! How right you are! We don't need to be keeping no stinking rules! No dogma! No "love your neighbor as yourself" No "thou shalt not murder, steal, lie!" Right on! No more stinking RULES! Art for president! Art for God! Art for art's sake!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 03:10 PM

Heh! Well, Slag, troll or not, he inadvertently opened the door to a chance to talk about some interesting stuff here.

My God in the 7th, 8th, and 9th grades was a girl named Pam Ford. Hard to believe now, but she was. She was that which I esteemed highest in my heart.

I did a search for her name not long ago on the Net, just out of curiosity, and all it came up with was a list of names of all the students in my graduating class in '66. Not a single other trace of Pam on the entire internet. Of course, I rather doubt her last name is Ford now...she was eminently marriageable, being the most popular girl in the entire class. I kid you not, she was. She was a cheerleader too. I bet she was married by 25, if not sooner. She now probably has grandchildren and is living in a split level bungalow with some guy I couldn't stand back then...and I have been saved, by the grace of God, from being that guy! ;-) It wouldn't have worked out.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 03:45 PM

Well, spiritual freedom and personal sovereignty are precious commodities, I am sure; and those who corrupt them directly with fatuous falsehoods, or bizarre diatortions of importance, and so on, are the most to be instinctively shunned. This includes television advertisers, drug companies, and SOME religious "spokespersons", depending on their nature and bent.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,GOD
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 05:04 PM

YES THERE ARE

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 05:14 PM

Oh, Hi there, God! Nice of you to drop in. I have a few questions about some technical details if you have a few minutes....eons.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Frogprince
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 05:14 PM

"I have been saved, by the grace of God" Sometime back a contributor who was either an unrelenting troll or had mental problems insisted that Little Hawk is actually a fundamentalist Christian. I thought he was wrong; but there, ladies and gentlemen, is the quote from the Hawk that proves him right...

"Art! How right you are! We don't need to be keeping no stinking rules! No dogma! No "love your neighbor as yourself" No "thou shalt not murder, steal, lie!" Right on! No more stinking RULES! Art for president! Art for God! Art for art's sake!"

Slag, if you really think that response to Art was appropriate, I submit that you've taken what Art said out of the whole context of his whole life and being as completely as I just took Little Hawk's words out of context.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 05:33 PM

Bill D has asked for it, God. Give Bill him the works! I suggest a visit by some Angels or a little thunderbolt. Maybe a burning bush on his front lawn. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 05:40 PM

Hey I was visited by a thunderbolt less than 2 years ago.

I don't reccomend it.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 05:44 PM

Shimrod, I don't know if you were being specific with the use of "you", or generalising, but in any case, I don't think I have tried to push anything on you, either belief in a system or the opposite. In fact, I have made no reference to my own view on the matter, or to yours. All I am concerned about is GUEST, Ed's manner of stating boldly "this is so - if you don't like it, prove the opposite", in which the opening post was couched, without providing any evidence to back the statement.

If the post had said "ADS/autism/etc etc does not exist; if you believe different, prove it", would one have reacted differently, and if so, why? Not only that, but a number of people would - rightly - have been offended. This was no different. Don't be surprised then if some people were offended in this case, and others simply find it a silly question.

Challenging anyone's religious belief's, especially uninvited, IMHO is but a first step on a road that leads to jihad and the like. A bit of sensitivity goes a long way.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 05:57 PM

Autism does not exist! that is
...without a human to claim that it exists, along with the definitions and tests of autism provided by the human.

ergo...God/s don't exist without...etc.

But I understood the first time around that being asked to prove a negative is a trollish exercise in passionate futility.

_______________________________________________________________

Mistaking a people with vastly superior technology as Gods is a grand mistake right up there with "never wage a land war in Asia".
but we are likely to make it again and again.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 06:03 PM

I am having a terrible time NOT starting a thread called "There aren't any Dogs."

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 06:20 PM

Oh, DO! LOL! And add in brackets (not even Lassie).

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 06:48 PM

"The desire to control transcends religion."

Ah - gotta challenge - doesn't religion claim to transcend everything we do?

But of course if religion is something man made up to control others... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 08:52 PM

God DID send an angel to Bill, and Bill promptly made friends with her. Bill's like that. :~)

(hi Bill)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 09:19 PM

Rapaire--you could start a thread, 'The Dogs of God." We could all then discuss that book.. Yes, that is an authentic title.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bert
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 09:45 PM

Oh nice one ~Susan. Bill can't argue with that 'cos we've met her.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 09:47 PM

No, religion doesn't claim to transcend everything we do...it claims to be about something that transcends everything we do. ;-)

The large picture, in other words.

Example: In a game, like chess, you make a lot of moves and a lot of thinking, those are the things you DO when playing chess....but surely the original mind(s) that conceived of and created the game of chess itself, not to mention all the other games and the whole rest of life outside of the game of chess, transcend(s) what you do within the mere limits of any one game, correct?

Our lives are brief and limited, quite petty in relation to the larger existence all around us. That larger existence transcends the events of our lives. Religion is about relating to that larger existence. It may or may not posit a "God". It may simply posit a transcendent reality rather than a personalized, human-like God. It is one way in which people attempt to explain what they can never fully grasp...the infinity of existence itself, and the apparent endlessness of time and space. Philosophy is another way we try to grasp the transcendent. Meditation is another way. The more advanced religions contain a great deal of philosophy AND meditation (or contemplation), and that's what gives them merit...not a bunch of silly little petty cultural rules about what to eat on Friday or how long to wear your hair or how many people you should marry or whether or not you should eat pork or how many times you need to pray in one day or what you shouldn't name a Teddy bear.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 10:28 PM

Christians should've come down on me hard and demanded my execution when I glued a 4-inch tall metal Tyrannosaurus Rex to the dashboard of our Volkswagen bus back in '67. I named it Sister Mary Godzilla and It protected us and that car for quite a while. ;-)

Art

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 10:36 PM

Bert, my Bert-- I ALWAYS get my man. Theyr'e lucky I give thought to what I'm gonna DO with them, but I always get 'em. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:22 PM

Nope.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:35 PM

I believe Little Hawk has the right of it.

In the meantime—

Norman was quite devout. He wanted to spend his life doing God's will. But he didn't know what God's will was. So he waited for God to show him a Sign. From his late teens to his middle forties, he sat out on his back porch and watched the sky.

Then one summer night, a meteor came hurtled down and landed about two hundred yards from his back porch, struck the ground with a horrendous explosion, shattered all the windows in the back of the house, and blew Norman right through the screen door and into his kitchen.

When he regained consciousness, he went out and discovered that the meteor had dug a two-hundred foot crater. It was still glowing dully, and emiting smoke and steam.

Poor Norman is in a quandary. The Sign was certainly quite emphatic, but he can't quite interpret it. He still doesn't know what God wants him to do with his life. But he figures it must be something pretty important.

He still sits on his back porch, wrinkling his brow and scratching his head.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Slag
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 02:28 AM

Guest (Dean?): I'm sure Art took it in the vein, in which I intended to deliver it, i.e., tongue-in-cheek! Intent, 95% humor, 4 and 3/4% sarcasm,.00025% mixed fractions. Point being an unsubstantiated baseless opinion started this thread and such a gutless remark doesn't deserve serious consideration. Other threads of similar topic and a much more sober treatment have graced the Cat and are available for any and all to see, provided the haven't been censored.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: skarpi
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 06:02 AM

So guest ed , have you found it ?? you wont find it in here , that I can tell you .

all the best Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 08:29 AM

Skarpi is deeply correct.

As ye seek...

so shall ye find.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 10:48 AM

I enjoyed the story about Norman, Don! ;-D First good laugh of the day, that was. I bet there have been a few people around with that sort of problem.

The thing about free will is....you have got to USE it effectively! Otherwise it's no good for anything. Deciding to wait for a sign is a decision, of course, but it's not a decision that leads in any useful direction or is likely to yield any useful result, generally speaking.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 11:07 AM

Harry was a Good Christian. He tithed, he gave to charities he found worthwhile, he supported missionary activity overseas, he went to Church twice on Sundays, read the Bible every night for an hour, and in short did everything he was supposed to do and more.

And he was very, very successful. A lovely home, several hundred million in the bank (all honestly earned), a great and loving family of good looking and intelligent kids, a wonderful wife.

And then...one day, his office phone rang. His house was on fire and it probably couldn't be saved.

He left immediately, of course. On the way, his cell phone rang. It was his lawyer -- his partner had stolen the company AND Harry's fortune. Harry was destitute. But he accepted it as God's will.

Screeching to a stop outside his driveway, he ran to his house but was grabbed by two cops. His house was a total loss and his family had been inside when the gas furnace exploded. They were all dead.

And then he remembered that he hadn't paid the insurance.

Devasted, Harry dropped to his knees in the mud that had been his front lawn and lamented, "Why, Oh Lord? I keep Your commandments, I follow the rules You have laid down. Why me?"

And a cloud formed and lightning shot out of it and a voice like thunder replied, "Because you piss Me off!"

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 11:48 AM

what I found in todays Sunday comics

(Note...above mentioned cartoon does not 'prove' anything....it merely is an eloquent expression of one point of view. Or maybe two - hard to say.)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 11:51 AM

Man, that is one heck of a weird looking comic. We don't have that one in any of the newspapers around here.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 11:57 AM

Well, the comics in the Washington Post are getting weirder every year! They hired a new comics editor a few years ago whose taste is 'interesting'.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 02:30 PM

Slag, I did feel your tongue in-between my "cheeks" -- Here is a quote from Amon Hennesey via Utah Phillips:

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what's right and wrong."

No, you are correct. The Ten Commandments are, in the main, just common sense too. I reserve the right to dislike authority figures when I see 'em going overboard/waterboard. ;-)



Art

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Slag
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 03:29 PM

Rather artless, Art.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:29 PM

I think I would rather enjoy seeing some I know go overboard.

Out past the 100-fathom curve, for starters.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:41 PM

Hi George,

Of course I'm not accusing you of anything! If you happen to have a religious faith then fine - that is none of my business and I certainly don't begrudge you it. Neither, to my knowledge, have you ever tried to force any sort of belief on me (I think we've only been in the same room once - and we weren't even introduced!).
Trouble is the world seems to be full of religious fundamentalists who seem to want to thrust their particular beliefs down everyones' throats. On reflection I probably shouldn't have read Richard Dawkin's book, 'The God Delusion'. I suppose that book crystallised the uneasiness I've felt about (organised) religion since childhood. Why do we afford all these weird and (often not so) wonderful beliefs such respect? I've spoken in hushed tones in Anglican cathedrals, taken my shoes off in mosques in Yugoslavia and Turkey and taken off my hat in the precincts of Buddhist temples in Thailand. But I've done all these things out of respect for the local people - not out of respect for their beliefs. On the other hand why do they assume that their particular (unproven and unsubstantiated) beliefs should automatically demand respect?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:56 PM

Well, it is a normal thing to show respect for other people when you're in their house (figuratively speaking). It isn't their beliefs you are then showing respect for, necessarily, it's they themselves that you are showing respect for by not judging them on the basis of their beliefs and not interfering in the normal things that they are accustomed to doing in their own house...by according them their right to be whom they choose to be.

It's what you would want them to do if they were in your house (again, figuratively speaking).

Now, when fanatics and fundamentalists try to shove their religious beliefs down someone else's throat...well, then it bothers me just as much as it does you, I assure you!

I don't care what religion people belong to...or whether they have no religion at all...I just care about whether they are willing to live and let live and not force their own beliefs on everyone else. When they do that, they've crossed the line.

My feeling with Dawkins is that he's an anti-religious fundamentalist. He's got a big chip on his shoulder about the whole thing, and it causes him to see only the bad aspects of religion. As such, he's deeply prejudiced, in my opinion. Such people are troublesome, whether or not they are religious.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 06:52 PM

LH:

How much of his work have you read?


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 07:38 PM

I've watched Dawkins debate on TV, and I have to say, I don't like his confrontational style much. He is an intelligent guy, but he 'hardens' his opposition in awkward ways.

It is strange to find myself agreeing with some of his basic points, but wishing he'd just SHUT UP at times.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 08:35 PM

From an article by Damon Linker in The New Republic, regarding Dawkins and others:

Journalists have dubbed this combative style of challenging religious belief "the new atheism." To the extent that the appellation is meant to highlight the novelty of virulently anti-religious ideas finding a mass audience in the United States, it is certainly fitting. But, as a description of the style of unbelief itself, it demonstrates a striking lack of historical awareness. That's because "the new atheism" is not particularly new. It belongs to an intellectual genealogy stretching back hundreds of years, to a moment when atheist thought split into two traditions: one primarily concerned with the dispassionate pursuit of truth, the other driven by a visceral contempt for the personal faith of others.

The entire article is here.

LH, as is so often the case in theses discussions, I find your observations throughout this thread to be spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 08:37 PM

If I tried to shove my beliefs down your throat you might well choke on them.

And rightly so.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 09:41 PM

>>Can I suggest that the 'Burden of proof' lies with either side..ie whoever is trying to prove or disprove has it!<<

No. The burden of proof is NEVER on the one who must prove a negative because it is impossible.

Such as "Prove you don't have weapons of mass destruction."

That alone should tell you why these little rules of debate must be followed meticulously.

Funny how you all forget that when it's not applied to Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nick E
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 09:53 PM

Are there sons of god?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 10:25 PM

Yes, Nick. Every male being is a son of Life itself...therefore a son of God. Every female being is a daughter of Life itself...therefore a daughter of God. That's my take on it.

I don't think Jesus ever intended to be set apart from everyone else as the ONE and ONLY Son of God. I think that was an idea spread later by some of his followers, and by the churches they founded in his name. He wasn't there (in the physical) at that point to set people right about it, so they went ahead and arranged it the way they wanted it, for various reasons.

Just my opinion, okay? It's what seems most likely to me.

Amos, no, I haven't gotten around to reading Mr Dawkins yet. Why? His general premise (going by what I hear about him) just doesn't interest me enough to bother looking into it. There are a lot of other things I'm more likely to read before I get around to reading him. I mean, hell, I went through the "religion is all a bunch of crap" mindset when I was a teenager...and that was a long time ago. I think I've outgrown such crass and prejudicial attitudes, hopefully.

To quote what Janie quoted, "atheist thought split into two traditions: one primarily concerned with the dispassionate pursuit of truth, the other driven by a visceral contempt for the personal faith of others".

I have no objection to the former attitude. Bill D exemplifies the former. I am very annoyed by the latter attitude...and it is what I refer to as aggressive fundamentalist atheism...as it is based not so much on a desire for truth as a desire to attack other people, discredit them, tear down their beliefs, and dominate them.

It is that same attack and dominate impulse that often poisons discussions on this forum...and it's a function of the warring ego, not of the dispassionate search for truth.

It's the desire to promote one's own identity at the expense of someone else's, for nothing other than gratification of one's urge to "win", to crush, to conquer, and be SEEN by everyone as having won...to symbolically destroy another person. It's warfare, and warfare has two objectives: murder and victory. (in this case, the "murder" being a psychological murder, not a physical murder)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 10:27 PM

Right on, LH.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 10:54 PM

I suggest to you that he is far more serious than your soundbite implies, and he is a strong porponent of the sheer awe that comes with appreciating the facts of the world and the cosmos, which he would say far exceeds the awe that passes for religion in many instances. Further, he understands and discusses in detail the nature of the ordinary miracles that make up the world as it is and the evolution which brought it here in a most enlightening manner. He is a far cry from a mere decrier of all religions, even though he does get a bit heated about the toxic nature of some theisms, and your shorthand does him a serious disservice. I recommend "The Blind Watchmaker" and "The Selfish Gene" for starters.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Slag
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 02:53 AM

The constituent elements of our physical beings have been in existence ever since existence (granting symmetry) and all indications are that those same elements will continue on until there is no more existence, if that ever happens. It is just for this short little time in this tiny little place that said elements are imbued with what we call consciousness or self awareness but what a miraculous thing that awareness is. Where did it come from? With out it would there be no witness that any of this existed at all ( even if it is a debatable subject)? That is one point of view. Behold the soul of Man.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 04:20 AM

I'm with Amos in terms of his opinion on Dawkins.

as for, "I went through the "religion is all a bunch of crap" mindset when I was a teenager..."

Yes, so did I and so, probably, did many people. What was particularly interesting about 'The God Delusion' is that it prompted me to re-visit that mindset and to find in it, on mature (maturer?) reflection concepts which cannot (and probably should not) be ignored.

Dawkins examines in detail many religious beliefs (particularly Bible based Christian beliefs) and finds in them many apparent absurdities and inconsistencies (not to mention the shocking inhumanity embodied in many passages in the Old Testament). He then goes on to ask, given the central role that religion demands for itself in many of our societies, and given that many religious people can only invoke 'blind faith' in justification for their beliefs when challenged, why should we afford those beliefs so much customary respect? Surely, an 'elephant in the room' question if there ever was one!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stu
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 05:07 AM

I think Dawkin's gets up peoples noses because he's like the little boy who pointed out the Emperor was in the all-together. I agree with Little Hawk his style is a little confrontational, but some people don't want to engage in robust debate of the style academics like Dawkin's and his ilk enjoy.

The ad hominem arguments of people of faith is often bewildering to people who rely on empirical evidence and reasoning to. The retort 'because I know it to be true' is seen as being superstition at best, self-delusional (as the excellent cartoon above says) at worst.

This subject is important because so many of those in charge of our lives claim some sort of divine influence on their lives and their decision making process. If you don't believe the same thing, then this can be alarming and the fact someone is using apparently supernatural means as a form of guidance is worrying to many people. Of course, those of a religious bent who take public office and then claim to hear the voice of God had better be careful - no-one likes a charlatan and those who claim the Decalogue as the foundation of their moral beliefs better stick to them (Bush of course saw 152 people executed when he was Governor of Texas, including mentally ill people - 'thou shalt not kill' means sod all to him obviously).

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 06:53 AM

Hi shimrod, Like George, I have not and never will try to push my religious views, or lack of them, on anybody. You said that the burden of proof was with the theist. In response I said "the burden of proof is with the one postulating the theory" with which you disagreed.

I don't really see how, in this circumstance, you can disagree. 'Guest, Ed' started the thread on the premise that there were no gods. He then exppected someone to prove him wrong without first providing any proof whatsoever of his theory. This is not how either scientific or logical debate works? Surely if the protagonist wants some logical debate he should, out of courtesy, provide some himself first?

I am happy for you to disagree and will not pursue the point, but that is the way I always understood these things should work. Maybe I am just old fasioned!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stu
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:47 AM

The fundamental nature of this argument means there will never be any agreement. A scientist will need clear, reproducible and quantifiable evidence of the existence of God before they will be convinced of God being real.

The theist on the other hand will not offer any proof of this kind because they think that would be a denial of faith, blasphemy or whatever. A scientist might point out this is a basic flaw in their argument for the existence of God, the believer will say it shows the strength of their conviction (which it may well do, though I think this misses the point).

Thus we have no solid evidence (in the public domain at least) proving the extraterrestrial provenance of UFOs, the plesiosaur theory of the Loch Ness Monster or the possibility of the chupacabra being responsible for the deaths of goats across South America. Or in fact, the existence of God.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Mrr (at work)
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:47 AM

What I don't understand is why people, intelligent people, who understand that the world is real and that the supernatural isn't, think that other people have a RIGHT to be stupid. Intelligent thought ought not to be a privilege, but the normal state of affairs. I respect other's opinions only when they are informed (the opinions, that is). I see no reason to respect idiocy.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 09:02 AM

I quite agree, Mrr, but I'm kinda up in the air about which "side" is the idiocy.

Lots of scientists -- damned good ones, Nobel prize winners -- see no incompatibility between their religious beliefs and what their science demonstrates. I find it rather comforting to know that the elements from which I'm made were formerly parts of stars and other things in the Universe and that this body will eventually return those elements for re-use -- and participate in this whole discussion again.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mooh
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 09:27 AM

The creed usually covers most of what I need to believe, up until this thread of course. Now, given the number of times I've logged on and read this thread, I think I believe in Trolls.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 09:51 AM

... To quote what Janie quoted, "atheist thought split into two traditions: one primarily concerned with the dispassionate pursuit of truth, the other driven by a visceral contempt for the personal faith of others".

I have no objection to the former attitude. Bill D exemplifies the former. I am very annoyed by the latter attitude...and it is what I refer to as aggressive fundamentalist atheism...as it is based not so much on a desire for truth as a desire to attack other people, discredit them, tear down their beliefs, and dominate them.

It is that same attack and dominate impulse that often poisons discussions on this forum... and it's a function of the warring ego, not of the dispassionate search for truth.

It's the desire to promote one's own identity at the expense of someone else's, for nothing other than gratification of one's urge to "win", to crush, to conquer, and be SEEN by everyone as having won...

Up to that point, I agree.

I think LH is channeling me. :~) That certainly IS the way so many "religion" discussions hereabouts FEEL and SMELL. Thanks for saying it so clearly, LH. (I think you're distilling what you've been saying in long form for years.)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 10:13 AM

Y'all gotta understand that God/G-d/gods ain't the problem. The difficulty arises when people insist that THEIR understanding of GGg is the correct one, and then they begin to TELL you about it.

"Why, just last Thursday me and GGg was talkin' and HHh told me that what I am about to tell YOU is . . . ."

People like that should be flayed--at least once. Then maybe flayed again to make the memory stick. I loved the scene in "Airplane" when the Hari Krishna guy accosts the fellow in the airport and receives a right for his efforts. T'was a Divine Right I think. Speaking of which, it's snowing and cold here. Have a great day everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 10:19 AM

Yeah, but how often do you see kings traipsing through airports?



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 10:24 AM

According to Miciu Kaku there are 5 stages of civilization based upon their technological use of energy in the Universe.

We are yet to be a class 1 civilization. A class 3-5 civilization would certainly have energy manipulation tehnology that would be God like in anyone's book.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stu
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 10:35 AM

"Yeah, but how often do you see kings traipsing through airports?"

It's our elected representatives that need to be called into question.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 12:37 PM

Proof of Gods existence

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 12:58 PM

Okay, Amos. ;-) I imagine I would probably agree with most (if not all) of the objections that Dawkins raises against "the toxic nature of some theisms".

I find that when people are arguing against the existence of God...they are invariably talking about a version of God that I don't believe in anyway. They're talking about a straw man they erected in their own mind. Although I do tend to believe in some kind of divine principle at work in life, and I do tend to believe I have a soul that will survive death....that doesn't mean I necessarily believe in any of the specific things that someone is objecting to when he says, "There is no God." He is objecting to something he imagines that someone else believes, he has created it in his mind in its most stupid version possible so he can gaze on it with utter disdain, and it's quite possibly a long way away from what the other people actually DO believe.) And anyway, what someone else believes is really nobody's business as long as that someone else minds his OWN business.

Do people have "a right to be stupid", someone asked? People have a right to be themselves. You may think it's stupid the way they are. So what? Someone else undoubtedly thinks you're stupid too. ;-) I guarantee it. As long as they don't violate your right to be yourself or someone else's right to be themselves they have done nothing to deserve your condemnation.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 01:02 PM

More proof

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 01:26 PM

Well, it looks like the consensus here is that a belief in a higher authority is fine as long as you don't force your god(s) on me.

Sound reasonable to me. As for the existence of such a supreme being, well, like an afterlife you'll know soon enough.

I've already made my decision about it and no, I'm not going to tell you what it is. So there. Nyah.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 01:32 PM

Hmmmmmmm

what about Martin Carthy? And that notsominor deity John Kirkpatrick?

In some peoples' eyes....................

Feet of clay? so what?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 01:36 PM

I believe in G-d. I just choose not to talk about it.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 02:06 PM

Let's state my position:

Anyone can believe in anything they like and I fully respect their right to do so. But some religious people expect others not only to subscribe to those beliefs but to live their lives in accordance with them.

In order to persuade me to respect those beliefs (rather than to respect their right to hold them - there is a big difference!), let alone live my life in accordance with them, such people are going to have to do a lot better than to evoke the nebulous concept of 'faith'.
And because such people don't seem to be able to do any such thing, perhaps they should 'pipe down a bit'.

And I still insist that you can't prove a negative. The Universe is vast (really, really big!!) and we only know about an insignificant amount about an insignificant corner of it. There may be an omnipotent, omniscient Creator for all I know - but I've never seen the slightest bit of evidence for one - but evidence could show up one day. But if He really is omni-this 'n' that, you'd think that He would be fairly conspicuous, wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 02:39 PM

I don't see why anyone here would object to your basic position as you have stated it, shimrod. I certainly wouldn't.

However, I can't relate to this part of what you said: "There may be an omnipotent, omniscient Creator for all I know - but I've never seen the slightest bit of evidence for one - but evidence could show up one day. But if He really is omni-this 'n' that, you'd think that He would be fairly conspicuous, wouldn't you?"

Heh! It sounds as if you are talking about an interstellar version of Pablo Picasso or something...hiding out there in a studio somewhere beyond the Andromeda Nebula...the "Creator", planning his next creation.

This is a fallacious concept to use when positing a God, in my opinion, because it's a very limited concept based on our own experience in dealing with limited phenomena, and mostly...just in dealing with other people. Everything and everyone we know has a location, a description, a history, a beginning, and an end. That's what you seem to be imagining the fictional God you describe to have!

Well, I think if you were to investigate the deeper mystical aspects of Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, and pretty well all the other isms out there, you would discover that the God or the transcendent reality that they are attempting to relate to in their teachings is NOT an individual being with a location...but a principle that is intrinsic in EVERYTHING. It is omnipresent. It's a bit like gravity, you might say. Therefore it's everywhere, not somewhere, and it has no beginning or end, no observable characteristics, no defining boundaries, no limitations.

As such, everything is evidence of that God! Or nothing is. ;-) And that is strictly a matter of individual persuasion or individual taste as to how you look at it. One person can look at another human being or at the sky...and see God revealed therein! Another person will look at the same human being and see only a competitor or an opportunity! And he will look at the sky and see only clouds, sun, light effects, and perhaps a bird flying by. One of those views is more mundane than the other, that's all. One is concerned with the surface of things, the other goes way beyond the surface of things. Science is not going to resolve this matter one way or the other. It can't. Neither is logic going to resolve it. Neither will experiments in labs resolve it. Neither are your words or mine on this forum going to resolve it. It will remain ungraspable and insoluble by any form of human observation or analysis. It's a complete mystery....as is the origin of life itself.

The less a person can stand to be confronted with an insoluble mystery, the more irritated he may become at someone else's faith in something he himself cannot see! But it really doesn't matter. Each to his own.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 02:55 PM

The San Francisco Chronicle's Mark Morford is a trouble maker, that much is for certain. HEre's some commentaryhe make on organized religion and a newly released film, The Golden Compass, excerpted from his column:

"

The sum of all fears: organized religion

Mark Morford

Friday, November 30, 2007


It has become a rule, some sort of law of the popular culture upon which any open-minded human worth her soul can rely with utter and perfect clarity.

It goes like this: If there is a piece of art, a TV show, a column, a book, a movie, a blog, a movement, a wine bottle or sexual position that somehow deeply threatens the various ultraconservative sects of Christian-blasted America to the point where their pale, dour representatives demand boycotts and distribute angry pamphlets to try to stop people from experiencing said hunk of culture because of how negatively it portrays their seething, condemnatory God, well, it's time to break out the Champagne. Or buy that book. Or get very, very naked. Or all of the above.

So it is with the first movie made from Philip Pullman's astonishing "His Dark Materials" trilogy, "The Golden Compass," a complex, mystically gorgeous, spiritually dense, big-budget fantasy epic so far removed from the cute wizardry of Harry Potter and the thin, childish, monochromatic Christian morality of, say, "The Chronicles of Narnia," that it might as well be a Coen brothers movie. On acid.

Oh my God yes - they are protesting. They are pamphleting. From the Catholic League and Focus on the Family to evangelical/fundamentalist Christian blogs from here to Colorado Springs, they are calling on their trembling armies to boycott the film because they believe that Pullman's brilliant books - which, by the way, if I had the power, I would place in the eager hands of every youngish human on the planet, especially the girls - are not only aggressively anti-Christian, but that they also describe, as their grand finale, nothing less than the death of God. This is what they say.

And here is the terrific thing: They are absolutely right.

But let's be a bit more specific, shall we? Because as any fan of "HDM" knows, it ain't really about God, per se. Pullman's luminous novels have nothing to do with rejecting faith or destroying the spirit or inhibiting the exploration of what it means to be divine. They are, in fact, the exact opposite. They relish spirit and the magic of belief and love, are soaked through with divine inspiration of a kind any intelligent Christian (or honest spiritual seeker of any stripe, for that matter) should crave. This is what makes them so incredible.

The nefarious thing the books aim to kill is religious authority. It's about the destruction of dogma. It's about power, about who wants to control and manipulate life on Earth, about the blind, ignorant, even violent adherence to insidiously narrow codes of thought, belief, behavior, sex, desire and love.

This, of course, is the God of organized religion. This is the false deity that promotes numb groupthink, inhibits growth and abhors the feminine divine (perhaps the books' most beautiful, inspiring theme), the same paranoid, dreadful God that votes for George W. Bush because he will smite the icky gays and protect us from vile pagans and Buddhists and Muslims and feminists and frumpy genius atheist British writers. If humanity is to flourish, to get over its addiction to war and guilt and fear, this is the false God that should - that must - die.

Although the books have as their evil antagonist a sinister cabal called the Magisterium (obvious parallel: Catholic Church), they also have a slew of dark characters in service of the Magisterium, various assassins, double agents and robot drones running around trying to annihilate the children's spirit, destroy magic and lock down faith forever. Let us call these robotic drones, oh, say, the Catholic League. Or Focus on the Family. Gosh, no wonder they're a little peeved.

But it's almost too easy, is it not? Even a child can see that these people are so far from true spirit, so far from open consciousness, it's a bit like comparing a lint ball to a cloud bank, a dung beetle to a flower bed. They are spiritual caricatures, the creepy clowns in organized religion's gloomy circus, all scrunched brows and gnarled hands and so much repressed sexuality that it would make a porn star wince. Really, why give their silly protests any attention at all?

..."

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 03:09 PM

Cool! ;-) Sounds like a movie I'd love to go and see.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 03:14 PM

I refuse t click on a unknown suspicious link to the exstence of someone's god.

You can lead a horse to water
but you can't make it click a link.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 03:22 PM

Well, too bad for you! You've just missed seeing Oscar Levant in a tutu.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 03:36 PM

that's Oscar Levant? I thought it was Orsen Wells.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 04:37 PM

God is Orson Welles playing Oscar Levant in a tutu?!?!?

Hm, that actually works...

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 05:44 PM

Hi LH,

I admire (and respect!) your eloquence and your passion - but it sounds a bit like faith to me ... But that's a bit churlish - sorry that I'm such a grumpy old materialist.

And thanks for that review, 'Amos' ... what can I say but "Amen" to that?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 05:48 PM

Well, of course, shimrod. ;-) Everyone has faith...only in what(?) is the question? And by their faith are their actions steered as long as this life endures...and perhaps beyond it as well. But we'll have to wait and see about that, right?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 06:51 PM

The thought of either Orson Welles or Oscar Levant in a tutu is a little more than I can handle.

Pass the Rolaids, please!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 06:53 PM

Click the link, LH. It is a nude Winona.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 07:42 PM

"n a case now pending in a federal court in Brooklyn, Mamie Manneh of Staten Island stands accused of having brought smoked bushmeat – known colloquially as monkey meat – into the United States without proper permits, in violation of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species.

Ms. Manneh's defense is that in her religion the eating of bushmeat has both a cultural and a spiritual significance. In an affidavit, 17 of her co-religionists declared, "We eat bushmeat for our souls." Manneh's lawyer, Jan Rostal, has analogized the African-based practice to the consumption at a Passover seder of foods like bitter herbs "that might have some reference to the Exodus." In a motion to dismiss, Rostal said that the case, while apparently novel, "represents the sort of clash of cultural and religious values inherent in the melting pot that is America."

No, it doesn't. It represents a more fundamental clash: between the imperatives of religion and the rule of law. The question raised by the case is whether the fact of a religious belief is sufficient to exempt the believer from the application of generally applicable laws — laws (like driving on the right-hand side of the road) that apply to every citizen no matter what his or her religious, ethical or moral convictions. Is religious belief a special case, so special that the devout practitioner gets a pass?"

The above introduces a long and thoughtful essay by Stanley Fish in the New York Times on the delicate balance between the commons and acts based on faith. I recommend it for a wide background on the isue. It can be found on this page. It is entitled

"Monkey Business: RELIGION AND THE LAW"

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:39 PM

Liar, liar, pants on fire! Ya can't fool me that easily. ;-)

(that was directed toward Peace)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 12:16 AM

Thanks for that link, Amos.

As I've followed this thread, I keep thinking that it is no more, and no less, than a reflection of the the dynamic that exists within the duality of freedom - control.    I know virtually nothing about any of the sciences, but my impression is this duality is inherent in all the known processes and systems of the known universe. It seems to me, (and this may simply be my ignorance,) that this duality, and the paradox it embodies are an essential component of all the dynamic systems that make up creation, whether one is considering particles, molecules, genomes and amoeba, or stars, solar systems and universes.

If all that existed was One (and one what doesn't matter, all that matters is that whatever it is, it is all there is, there is only one of it, and it is made up of only One - no component parts or internal systems) then the freedom-control duality would not exist. Add something else, anything else, and the duality and the accompanying paradox are there. It seems to me to be pure logic.

Religion is not faith. Faith is not spirituality. Concepts of God or Not-God or No-God, are not religion, faith, or spirituality.   Beliefs are anything one accepts as fact or as true without proof that it is. No man or woman operates in the world without beliefs. We all have beliefs about ourselves, others and the world that largely, and often unconsciously, determine how we interact with others and the rest of creation. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have yet to encounter any human being who moves through the world and interacts with other people in such a way as to suggest they are completely free of all cognitive distortions, or completely aware of all the ways their cognitive distortions interfere with their perceptions.   

Thus the tenet, common in the social sciences, that what one believes to be true has real consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stu
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 04:11 AM

Carl Sagan summed it up for me (and I am paraphrasing here).

If there is no God, no omnipresent, omnipotent divine entity in the universe and each of us is nothing more than an aggregation of elements and compounds, our thoughts and dreams simply electrical impluses speeding through synapses and nerves that owe their existence to chance and chemistry, then consider this. We are made up of the elements that comprise the whole universe - these elements were created in the exploding hearts of supernovae, in the fiery cauldrons of gas and plasma where stars are born, in the depths of volcanos and driven from the nuclear core of a thousand million suns.

We are the stuff of the universe, made of it's raw materials and we are conscious of it. We can contemplate our own existence and stand on our small planet and question our very reason for being. We are the universe itself made conscious, the universe contemplating itself, and that makes each one of us so valuable, unique and so full of potential it is truly staggering to comprehend. All this, at the very least. If we are just biomechanical machines. No God(s).

To my mind, that is truly wondrous and inspirational.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 08:05 AM

I have faith in human nature.

Faith that there are good people out there and shits who live off that. What faith doesn't give me is the insight to spot the shits. Experience did it. And not very well.

And yes Mr Sagan was ............. sagacious.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 08:11 AM

There is no reason to limit the set of possible solutions to (1) there is a Gos )2) we arw just matter only.

There may, as a third option, be billions of gods, doing a giant averaging act.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 09:17 AM

Go Janie!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 09:23 AM

Sorry, Amos but Gos does not exist!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 09:42 AM

Sorry, Snail, but

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

gOS is a Linux distribution created by gOS LLC, a Los Angeles-based corporation[1]. The company advertises it as "An alternative OS with Google Apps and other Web 2.0 apps for the masses."[2]


Gos DOES exist.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 09:55 AM

Peace

Gos DOES exist.

I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT! I WILL SIN NO MORE. PRAISE BE TO GOS.

(Is there an alternative OD?)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 10:02 AM

Hallaluyah/halalooyuh/hallaylooyah/ JOY!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 10:21 AM

Let us all kneel before Gos and offer thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 10:23 AM

Put your faith in Gos, and you will find Her/it soon enough. She/it appears to those who have faith in Her/it. Gos helps those who help themselves, but not too much.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 10:36 AM

Yo:

"apps for the masses"

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 10:42 AM

So if you're a dyslexic follower of Gos do you stay awake at night wondering if there is a Sog?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Mrr (at home, who ate my cookie?)
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 10:54 AM

T-shirts available online somewhere:

1) Militant Agnostic: I don't know and you don't either!
2) Militant Apatheist: I don't care about your silly god!
3) Militant Atheist: There's no goddamn god, goddamn it!

What I find dumb is the denial of reality to allow for your faith. If believers would accept reality, and believe that their god created the world to seem to have that reality, that would be fine. E.g. - the Earth is 6000 years old and Humans were created on the 6th day of creation and it was made to appear as if evolution and geology were true. That seems fine. The denial of evolution or deep time, though, is worse than ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:26 AM

T-shirts I'd LIKE to see available online somewhere:

1) Rude Agnostic: I don't know and you don't either!
2) Rude Apatheist: I don't care about your silly god!
3) Rude Atheist: There's no goddamn god, goddamn it!

What I find rude is the insistence that someone else ought to tell me when I'm being dumb, and in what way.

And BTW, Anglican spirituality and theology DO deal with the scientific "realities" so many "militantly rude atheists" ASSUME have not been considered.


It always surprises me to see so much perfectly good bathwater being thrown out, given the worldwide concerns about water shortages. ;~) And quite often, there are puir innocent babies in that bathwater, too, swirling down the metal drains of these rude militants. ;~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:27 AM

coorex

meNtal drains

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:32 AM

Janie,

Beautifully put.

The inherent origin of the apparent duality? BIG question, yes?

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bert
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:49 AM

Your baby has gorn dahn the plug'ole

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 12:07 PM

I 2nd Amos' & Susan's applause of Janie's post. That was coherent, meaningful and worthy of saving & re-reading....especially the last part.

therefore:

"Religion is not faith. Faith is not spirituality. Concepts of God or Not-God or No-God, are not religion, faith, or spirituality.   Beliefs are anything one accepts as fact or as true without proof that it is. No man or woman operates in the world without beliefs. We all have beliefs about ourselves, others and the world that largely, and often unconsciously, determine how we interact with others and the rest of creation. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have yet to encounter any human being who moves through the world and interacts with other people in such a way as to suggest they are completely free of all cognitive distortions, or completely aware of all the ways their cognitive distortions interfere with their perceptions.   

Thus the tenet, common in the social sciences, that what one believes to be true has real consequences.

I used to grade essays in a beginning Philosophy class, and I often prayed wished for someone to show that kind of insight. The value of it is, that she managed to clarify the description of how we DO function, without presuming any specific belief system to be 'better'.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 01:10 PM

I've heard it all before--there is no God. No such thing as Love. Jazz isn't music, and Chocolate doesn't make you feel good.

I almost believed it, too, til they tried to sell me a carburator that could get you from Pensacola, Florida to Kenosha, Wisconsin on one tank of gas.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 02:42 PM

And God never made no little green apples,
And it don't rain in Minneapolis
In the wintertime....

(I always thought rhyming "apples" and "Minneapolis" was a ballsy move....)



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 02:54 PM

Wishful thinking...
Grasping at straws...

Deathbed conversion = cramming for finals.

Life after death? Wishful thinking...!

What goes around...

...comes around.
Art

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 02:57 PM

I went through a period sometime recently where I was a little too beligerent when it
came to the discussion of religion. I have met some fine people who I admire that have their religious beliefs inform their behavior in positive ways. If I have offended any of these people, I apologize profusely.

I believe the First Amendment to the Constitution is a Golden Principle. It defends the
rights of people to believe whatever they want. I don't think it is constructive to belittle
anyone's belief system if they are committed to it on a personal level.

I have been mistaken in finding it necessary to defend my non-belief through a negative discourse. The bottom line for me is how do people behave? If they are loving, socially constructive, good human beings then what does it matter what their personal religious beliefs are?

I think that when people who are non-believers such as myself become aggressive and nasty it accomplishes nothing useful. There are those who are believers that I love dearly. I believe that love and a nurturing community are the real "values" that make sense to me.
I am more impressed by how folks behave then what they profess to believe.

I have found folk music to be a great healer. It brings people together of all persuasions.
Animosity and differences melt away when folks sit down to sing and play together.

In short, anger doesn't get it. Only reason and responsible behavior are the best allies.

Apologetically yours,

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 03:18 PM

Well said, Frank! As you say, it's not what people profess to believe that matters, but how they behave.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 03:32 PM

And sometimes what they say and what they do - have nothing in common. We've all been guilty of that - myself included.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,sinky
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 03:52 PM

God is our conscience,thats all.Just be a good person and heaven will be yours on earth,simple as that.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 04:06 PM

I went through a period sometime recently where I was a little too beligerent when it
came to the discussion of religion. I have met some fine people who I admire that have their religious beliefs inform their behavior in positive ways. If I have offended any of these people, I apologize profusely.


Why Frank, I am not sure what to say.... I certainly appreciate that you said this, and publicly too (which is why I am responding to it publicly). I was offended, and I really wondered what bug you had up your butt about it, because until the surprising posts you reference above, I had always had so much respect for you that I can't even say.... and your post now, above, fulfills what I might have expected from you, and your change of view is deeply welcome. And of course, though we have never met, I accept your apology; I look forward to making your acquaintance some day through music.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 04:37 PM

Two men are standing in a field. One believes he is in the middle of a deluge. The other believes he is in the middle of a drought. No matter how strong their beliefs, it won't affect the weather. Both men will end up just as wet.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 05:14 PM

Anyone able to answer my question yet?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 05:24 PM

It's gone waaaaay past whatever your question was, Ed. It's moved on to important stuff now.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 05:51 PM

Ed:

What was your question? "Can anyone offer proof that God exists" ? or something on that line.

If so, forget it. Your premises are self contradictory in their nature. If that doesn't make sense to you, you aren't actually equipped to ask the question in a meaningful way.

I do not say this because I am a theist -- I am not. But I say it because I respect the individual and his discoveries beond the realm of the already-known, whatever universe they may be seeking in.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 06:42 PM

The master guards the sheepfold bin
And he wants to know, "Is my sheep brung in?"
And he's callin, callin,
Callin' softly---softly callin'
For them all to be gatherin' in.

To me, this isn't a religious song at all.
It IS simply just about inclusion. Like: "We're in the same boat, brother." The admirable philosophy of the shepherd is not to discriminate just because some might delete the black sheep from the group for whatever reason.

Believe me folks, this song illustrates aspects of my own life graphically. I have a very hard time with people who ostracize and exclude others when, with a little good will and effort, they might reap the good from knowing those they excommunicate so glibly.

That is a large reason I enjoy Mudcat. We are here in spite of our differences.

My big fault is that, when I feel hurt by a post, I shoot from the lip way too quickly. I'm with Frank. And I am sorry, Susan and others, if I have been unfeelingly judgmental here.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 07:22 PM

Peace, that was a great line!

Art, ...I am sorry, Susan and others, if I have been unfeelingly judgmental here....

I think what is so hurtful is that a thoughtless comment can so quickly makes me want not to know the person who made the remark, any further, because it says so strongly that this thoughtless person cannot possibly know me at all, and therefore never will be able to know me. Even in the midst of what I might have thought was a nice start on a friendship, to have said what they've said... the reaction is, "Oh. I get it-- they never saw me."

There are some ways in which the thoughtless comment can just entirely stall any desire for further discourse. Not because I fear I'll get hurt again, but because that depth of cluelessness, defended, seems to make it clear how and where I can better prioritize my time, my thoughts, my explorations, my discoveries... my SELF. It puts that other person, for me, squarely into the camp of those who may need my help at some point-- and I do not mean merely spiritual help-- and who are not going to be candidates for a 2-way friendship on an equal footing-- that person can only be, if I allow it that is, my client. Because if their thinking is so eaten up by their past hurts that they do not see.... me.... at all, they will probably never catch up to be in sync with me, in the future. (I prefer not to conduct friendships on the basis of whose needs are screaming loudest most of the time.) They will always be, for me, that person whose hurts wre bigger than their ability to see the present and be with me in that present.

So... apology accepted, with gratitude. I guess maybe an apology is a sign that it may be worth keeping an eye out to see if the apologizer's future actions match the maturity of the apology.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 08:37 PM

Doug Chadwick, your post misses the point. Belief affects the believer and those whom the believer's behaviour (which is a result OF his beliefs) directly impacts. Your two men standing in the rainy field are both affected by their beliefs, in that they perceive the same situation differently ("It's raining." "No, it isn't." "I'm dry!" "No, you're not, you're all wet!"), they are prepared to argue about it, and they may even come to blows over the matter! ;-) One of them might suffer a fatal injury, due to their disagreement. Or perhaps he might sue the other for damages. Therefore, their beliefs DO have an effect...not on the rain (or the lack of it), most likely not on the field either, but upon themselves and each other and their families, and possibly their descendants as well.

And that is the power of belief. Even a completely unrealistic and ill-founded belief has power to sway the minds of men, and can move them to action...with very discernable effects on the world.

Hitler believed that Germans were the "master race". It was a belief in a complete fiction...but just look at the effect it had on the world. A large number of Americans believed that Saddam Hussein had WMDs in 2003 AND was responsible for 911. That had an effect on the world too.

Believing in unreal things can have enormous effects, first on people and THEN on the world, as I think you know... ;-) That's precisely why some people object to organized religion. It's also why people object to stupid political agendas, false advertising, and a host of other things.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 09:34 PM

L.H.---That's beautiful. ---------- Right now it is dawning on me that it's the effects/fallout from the "beliefs" of others that have impacted negatively on my life, and on some of those lives close to me. I seem to be transferring my downer baggage to so many with faith here in these kinds of threads. At least I am seeing, now, some of what I've been doing. To say the least, that was totally unfair. I truly am sorry you people have had to put up with that.
Onward,
Art

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 09:43 PM

For those of us who see religion as the root of all evil, maybe the bigges problem is the constant chorus of belieivers who keep telling us to be tolerant of their religion.

             We, of course, think they are destroying humanity and the entire planet we live on in the process.

             It's a lot like asking Al Sharpton to be tolerant of racism.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 10:38 PM

Spend a day actually working alongside those of us in the ministry and be sure to tell us how many people we screw up. Here area few snapshots for you to enjoy trying to poke holes in:

The young hockey team whose bus rolled down an embankment last week, for ewxample, to whom we're taking a bag of totally silly Christmas goodies guaranteed to make their next (scary) bus ride more fun and perhaps just a little stress-relieving.

The people who will be fed without question or religious comment from the generosity of our parish, their baskets delivered by hubby and I so no one else needs to see who is on the receiving end this year.

The unwed mother whose Christmas "bonus" will be fat this year because she's moving downstate to be closer to the child's dad, where she will complete her degree and continue to work fulltime-- who happens to be our waitress about once a week.

The cancer patients we spend time with.

The older couple down the road whose adult kids emailed me again today with fresh concerns because they know the dear old folks actually confide in us as friends, about their worries, so they ask us what we think about it all because we give it to them straight.

The family for whom my husband left a small Mudcat Gathering at our home last time, to offer comfort to the parents whose son had leapt from their moving SUV at 70MPH, over a guardrail, to land on the rocks about 5 stories below-- people we'd never met, never asked if they go to church, never will see again.

The lady in my aquatics class today who needed to talk about the extraordinary blessing she feels it is to volunteer in hospice care, whose family lives far away and who is a vigorous 80-year-old asskicker from Memphis, but lonely with no family here.

Yeah-- lives ruined, forever, because of our ministries. ;~) (How are YOUR contributions to world peace going?)

Eat that.

Later this week I'll leave the house at 5AM to drive downstate (at my own expense) and back in one day with 7 hours driving and 2 hours of meeting time, to interview some MORE people who would like to go into the ministry. I'll tell them you're out there, along with a whole lot of people just like you. I'll ask them what they think about sad individulas like yourself who only know negativity.

Merry Christmas! :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 10:40 PM

I beg my friends' pardon-- that last post is addressed to Riginslinger, and only Riginslinger.

~S~

Subject: Lyr Add: IMAGINE (John Lennon)
From: number 6
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 10:48 PM

For years I always thought the following was a silly, dreamer's song. Lately I'm beginning to understand exactly what John was feeling when he wrote it ... I guess I've just become a silly dreamer in my old age.

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:12 PM

Yes, he covered a lot of ground there...religious divisions, political and national divisions, and divisions inspired by greed and materialism of every kind.

You see, religion in itself is not the problem. National identity in itself is not the problem. Material goods and private ownership in themselves are not the problem. People's negative or excessive use OF religion and nationalism is the problem. Greed for more material things than one needs, and the willingness to do harm to others to get those goods, is the problem.

It always comes down to people's behaviour...good or bad. That is the determinant. And their behaviour is inspired by their beliefs, of course...but the same set of professed beliefs can often inspire excellent behaviour in one person and awful behaviour in the next...so it is the interpretation and use of beliefs that is vital. Do they have a mature understanding of their belief..or a caveman's understanding of it, that's the question? If it's the latter, then they can be quite dangerous under certain circumstances...as with the raging crowds that gathered in the Sudan, calling for that English teacher's blood over the naming of a teddy bear! The more mature Muslims who were actually in some of the positions of authority there had the sense to realize that she had intended no real offence, and they simply pardoned her and sent her back to England. In the hands of the street mob, she would have been killed. There's the difference.

John Lennon's song serves as an interesting parable...saying, "What if we could rise above all these things and treat each other as equals?"

It proposes something so far from ordinary human consciousness that it can't be seen as literally possible, but rather as a symbolic lesson, a signpost which might make people think and question their customary divisions.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:25 PM

Yes LH ... he did cover a lot of ground in that song ... and just a simple little song it is.

It's not what is right, or what is wrong .... just imagine ... just imagine .... and then maybe, just maybe "we could rise above all these things and treat each other as equals?"

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:29 PM

LH & #6 - It's a wonderful song. It really shouldn't offend anyone, but it does, sadly.


                  Susan - My new book came out a week or so back. The title is "Invasion of the Bible Thumpers." It can be located on Amazon.con, Barnes & Noble.com, and a number of other places.

                  I firmly believe you feel you are doing the right thing.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Slag
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:58 PM

Truly an amazing discussion! No one has defined their terms. Yet everyone continues to attack or defend just as though the other(s) understands what he means by the term "God" "faith" "reason" etc. It's like a storm-trooper wild monkey knife fight.

Hint faith in "reason" is still "faith". Reason's ultimate appeal is to reason, a tautology if ever there was one.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Keinstein
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 05:18 AM

Shurrup Slag, what do you knoww about it, who asked you? God is the Absolute, the Infinite, the Ultimate Cause, and it follows as night follows pigeon, that if you fail to believe in the absolute truth of chapter 3, verses 1 to 7 of the Book of Mercy things will go hard for you on the Day of Judgement.

Reason is not a tautology; it's simply the basis for any discussion that is not absolutely solipsistic. Otherwise you may as well take the Postmodern position that all descriptions are equally valid.

Faith is usefully defined as belief in a proposition that can not be proved. It's absolutely necessary to continue living. On the other hand, faith that is not a temporary position (until better proof is available) is dogma, and faith that goes in the face of evidence is destructive. I think it follows that faith should be confined to the bare essentials; belief in the approximate validity of the relative strengths of the gravitational and electromagnetic forces as now understood allows me to walk along the ground without fearing suddenly falling through it to the centre of the Earth.

There are no apparent consequences accruing from lack of belief another's subjective understanding of the ultimate nature of the universe that would affect the life of an individual- though there may well be consequences from showing that you don't believe them.

I wouldn't want to enter a building designed by an engineer who didn't believe in physics. I wouldn't trust to a microbiologist who didn't appreciate evolution. An astronomer who believes that the heavenly bodies are pushed around by angels, or that the distant galaxies were formed in 4004BC would be less than useful. A psychiatrist who belives in demons should not be in charge of a mental hospital.

Non- overlapping magisteria... if you don't claim that religion (or other speculation) has effects in the physical universe, it doesn't overlap with science. That of course is not the same as saying it has any actual field of application- particularly the moral.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 08:13 AM

Rather comical, actually. Some unknown guy posts a challenge; the first responses are...
"Who the heck are you to bait us??? Piss off!"

...and then gets hundreds of responses in a few days. Sounds like "guest ED" was feeling bored and decided poking a stick into a wasp's nest would be fun.

Oh, yeah the question. Is there a tea-tray in orbit around Jupiter? Very unlikely.

Are those who Believe there's tea-tray in orbit around Jupiter (and insist that others "respect" their insight) a major pain in the butt? Most definitely.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bee
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 08:29 AM

It interests me that I see so many complaining that Dawkins is embarassingly agressive or loud or confrontational. Considering the vast numbers of noisy and belligerent preachers, imams, and so on, that populate the planet and shout out their condemnations, isn't it sensible that at least a few atheists make at least a little counter-noise?

To Susan:

There's no question that there are many preachers and ministers and priests who work hard and are genuinely compassionate towards people, as I am sure you and your husband are.

You may feel, when hearing from atheists and agnostics, that you personally are the babies being tossed with the bathwater. Perhaps you are, but that bathwater is very, very dirty, toxic, and needs to go. You babies need to have your parents (denominational leaders) clean that water up.

Especially in the US, of all developed nations, the stagnant bathwater of religion is visibly hindering more good than it is promoting. Research becomes controversial and funding for it endangered if it is seen to conflict with religious views based on the cultures of people centuries ago. Your countrymen won't elect a politician who doesn't subscribe to (or at least lies about) some form of God belief, thus eliminating many able persons. Religion informs continued legal and social discrimination against homosexuals. Religious leaders make wild or simply wrong pronouncements which are believed by thousands, if not millions, of your compatriots. Many individuals have had disastrous experiences as a result of their beliefs and the support of the church they belong to, ranging from refusing medical treatment to sexual abuse and harmful 'exorcisms'.

It's easy enough to distance yourself from these effects of religion, and say "We're not like that". Nevertheless, at centre, you are part of an enormous collective of God believers. Atheists make up a tiny percentage of the population of the US, and yet the religious often respond to atheists who speak out with anger and condemnation, and even some atheists feel threatened by noisy atheists.

I think it is entirely possible for non believers and believers to learn from each other; for the religious to see the non religious as offering checks and balances against the unreasoning excesses religion is capable of promoting. If we say the Emperor has no clothes, then perhaps you should check your garments, instead of immediately insisting that you are, in fact, clothed in raiment of silk and gold. From the religious, atheists can perhaps learn a thing or two about community, although I'd bet most of us are thoroughly involved with our communities already. (In my rural community, several of us unbelievers readily assist in church inspired events which we see as contributing to the good of the community: I've baked many a cookie, repaired stained glass for small recompense, and trotted out plates at suppers.) We can get along, but people need to think more and be defensive less.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 09:28 AM

A coupla more folks in dire need of forgiveness have generated these stories. The good they have done someone vanishes behind the betrayal represented, fairly or not.


Legal battle finally ends for victim of priest abuse

Two decades after the woman first told of seven clerics having sex with her, and of one fathering her child, she receives $500,000 from the L.A. Archdiocese.

---

37-Month Sentence for Priest Who Defrauded Parish



By ALISON LEIGH COWAN
Published: December 5, 2007
NEW HAVEN, Dec. 4 — Telling him, "Not even the collar can protect you from prison," Judge Janet Bond Arterton ordered a 37-month sentence Tuesday for the Rev. Michael Jude Fay, the Roman Catholic priest who admitted pilfering $1.3 million from the church he had led in Darien.

Rejecting calls from Father Fay's supporters for an alternative sentence, Judge Arterton told a crowded courtroom in Federal District Court here, "A sentence of probation would be impunity for a crime of enormity." She said the priest's crime was "enormous" in terms of the amount taken and its impact on parishioners and the public trust.


By Susannah Rosenblatt, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
December 5, 2007
Rita Milla's story rocked the Archdiocese of Los Angeles when she first told it 23 years ago. Seven Roman Catholic priests, she said, had sexually abused her when she was a teenager, with one eventually fathering her child. The devout young woman who had once hoped to become a nun instead gave birth in secret in the Philippines.

On Tuesday, her decades-long legal battle came to an emotional end.

Looking somber and relieved, Milla received $500,000 from the archdiocese, part of a $660-million settlement between the church and hundreds of people alleging abuse by priests.

---

Good acts are good no matter what flag they may fly. So are harmful acts harmful, regardless of their club or colors.

A

Subject: THIS THREAD IS CLOSED
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 09:44 AM

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bee
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 10:17 AM

Why, Donuel?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 10:25 AM

Bee, ???. Do you somehow assume that my husband and I ignore what is wrong in religion? That anyone whose "good works" you find acceptable must be making a choice to live with blinders on? What you are doing is tokenizing the Christians whose works you "approve" of.

Sometimes I think that the anti-religionists have more faith than I do. Their faith points in the other direction-- it's a faith that no matter what reality confronts you, you can still find justifcation to claim that evil is more powerful than goodness-- but it is so strong as to get along just fine without a lot of the logical thinking they seem to think is better than the kind of faith I live. I feel very sad for those of you living in that kind of reality.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 10:25 AM

Any Reason?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 10:32 AM

it's a faith that no matter what reality confronts you, you can still find justifcation to claim that evil is more powerful than goodness

Who claims that?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:11 AM

See

Thats what happens when religiosity defines itself as the opposite of athieism. Good evil, with us or against us, life death.

It may only start as a created fear of the "other" but given very little time that fear turns into hate like wine turns to vinigar.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:29 AM

I think at the bottom, one of the major causes of animosity against SOME religionist positions is the disavowal of the correct sources of things.

As anyone knows who has had his work stolen and used by others without due credit, it can be very embittering to have one's own source-hood denied or nullified.

Good works come from good people. So, ultimately, do good religions. The problem many people experience with religious cosmology is the notion that a Great Source, external to the being, should be acknowledged for all existence. This finds its ultimate expression in the ordinary dialogue of Muslims who, for example, greet all good news with "En'shallah", and who when spoken to of gratitusde for some favor, reply "Don't thank me, thank Allah." SOme Chriatian world-views are very similar. The whole notion that God has mysterious plans for you, and knows all, governs all, is the source of all, especially as it is often translated to small children, can easily become a very toxic and disempowering belief.

Granted it tries to offer an explanation for a set of phenomena that physics seems to have no answer to. But it seems patently clear that if the answers were closer to "truthiness" they would produce less arbitrary explosions, produce better results in application more broadly, and would not spin off so many radical alternative theories. Above all, they would aligbn with individual experience on a wider basis. BEing told that these analytical criteria need to be displaced by an act of faith is easily dismissed as copping a non-rational plea. While spiritual matters may not be measurable in the terms of phsyics itself, that is no reason why they should not be rational, and it often happens (because they often resort to authority alone as their fundamental) that the various religions we know of fail this test.

This is not to say that there is no such subject as spiritual matters; just that it has not been well-addressed in any demonstrable way, or at least has no widely used vocabulary that meets this test.

The theories of phlogiston and caloric fluid and aether and humors and the tides of the blood are all examples of parallel situations in the history of material science. The deathless line attributed to a London gentleman who attended the early presentation of the theory of circulation comes to mind. The young Dr. Harvey, who presented his research suggesting the hyeart was a pump and the veins, arteries and capillaries acted as pipelines for blood, was flying in the face of received wisdom going back to the ancient Greek father of medicine, Galen of Pergamum (AD 129 -c. 216), was a prominent Greek physician, whose theories dominated medical science for over 1300 years. So entrenched was the authority of Galen, who asserted the model of tides and humours, that this gentleman is alleged to have said "I would find it better to be wrong, but side with Galen, than to be right with Harvey.".

This is not to gainsay any of the good that comes from religous-based organization, nor to minimize any of the harm. People in every walk of life are often loopy, or spinny, or even whacky. But I think it is observable that when they have good data about their own situation they get a lot less loopy -- meaning data that matches up to experience and observation. And when they are working with bum data -- superstition, lies, authoritarian manipulations, false entities, distorted importances, or any other kind -- they tend to get even loopier. I could go on, but I doubt it will benefit any of us for me to rattle on.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:51 AM

Anyone should be able to have a conversation about religion or their belief system without later having remorse about how they feel or what they may have said to angst someone else. Funny how defensive folks get when it does come to challenging their beliefs.

How one interprets religion is more than probably from past experience with that religion.
I have an example of that in my own life when I was young(er)

I was into Christianity and I loved Jesus. So much I wanted to become a minister myself. One day I approached my minister and told him this. His response was-"Women can't be ministers"
Well talk about shattered dreams.
That was a changing moment for me. I was angry. I thought what bullshit is this? Where is the equality and justice in this religion.
In hindsight, though, it actually was the best thing to happen to me because it journeyed me past the structured religion and sent me seeking for my own beliefs and spirituality.
What a journey I am on!!


I have been following this thread and it's been a good one. Lots of revelations and good discussion. People like to talk about religion and beliefs, so it seems. It's who we are after all, whether it be structured religion, philosophy or id.

Amos-Thanks for that link on Mark Morford-SF Gate. He is great!! I read his archives last night and find him delightfull!


Carry on good foks!
Peace.
Rustic


P.S.-Right now the good book to me is the dictionary! Tautology, solipsistic....

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 12:37 PM

Lovely6 post, RR. Thanks.

The Onion has a take on the Richard Roberts scandal which is germane to what I was saying in an indirect, tongue-in-cheek way.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 01:50 PM

And a lot of kneejerk reactions that, unfortunately, tend to land on nearby arses.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:06 PM

Thet thar was no knee-jerk. Hit wuz an IED (improvised emotioonal device).

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:29 PM

I don't have much tolerance for religion but I don't really talk about it with people because they all get pissed off and what's the point?

But I've had it up to here with religious phonies. I really don't have problem with someone who goes to church and lives a quiet life and doesn't want to rock the boat too much--just lead a good, quiet life. That's fine.

I hate the activists. Why aren't we seeing a massive outpouring of Christians protesting the tobacco companies for example?? And I don't care if they're hardcore RW fanatics or the kinder, gentler variety. Where are they? These corporations are poisoning us--all of us, addicting people and laying 400,000 a year in their graves in America alone. I would play more open mic nights at the bars--they've asked me to and I would like to--but I cannot stand the smoke-filled rooms. Once every few months is all I can tolerate.

Where are the Christians trying to put the tobacco giants out of business? They can elect and reelect an asshole president, they can build gigantic churches, they can rake millions in donations every year and not pay a cent in taxes, they can own television networks, open state-of-the-art bible colleges, rant and rave endlessly about morality--but they can't get off their goddamn asses and put a truly immoral, destructive industry of ruthless drug pushers out of business. They can whine about Terri Schaivo lying comatose and brainless in her hospital bed but ignore all the ones hacking their lungs out in hospices waiting to die.

They can go into the street and lay down in front of abortion clinics and scream how life is sacred but they can't do that in front of R.J. Reynolds corporate HQ. They can shoot a doctor but not a tobacco exec whose doing everything in his power to addict your children and succeeding at it because no one's stopping him.

Don't talk to me about the good you do. SHOW ME! I'm sick of your shit.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:47 PM

Amazing how many people refer to Christians as simply "they." As if Christians were a monolithic group, all alike.

On the other hand, there are Christians who do the same thing with atheists and agnostics.

The world ain't that simple, folks!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:47 PM

Invasion of the Bible thumpers! I love it!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:52 PM

We can "they" Muslims, we can "they" gays, we can "they" antiwar and prowar people, we can "they" blacks, we can "they" Jews, we can "they" anybody we want. We can "they" Christians. They've done too much fucking shit up and never having to explain themselves. Everybody else gets "they'd" so can Christians. Christians do more "they-ing" than anybody.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 04:06 PM

This is clearly a USA problem, isn't it? ;-) I mean, look, if you were living in Canada or France or Great Britain, or Italy I don't think there'd be nearly so much polarization happening between people over religion. Matter of fact, I know there wouldn't be.

Perhaps it is partly because your American politicians have deliberately pandered to and encouraged such polarization in their efforts to manipulate the results at the polls.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: haddocker
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 04:22 PM

Hmm...so many people talking about religion. Perhaps there is hope after all. What is important here is that the dialogue continues, for that is how we know that we are all connected to each other...different bodies...one soul. Ed, although I cannot give you empirical proof, other than a long anthopological history of cultures reaching higher and realizing that they don't have control over things like earthquakes, floods, rain, etc., after a long and challenging journey, I can tell you God does, in fact, exist. Do not call Him He, or She, or It, for God is beyond anyhting that you can imagine or explain. And do not imbue Him with things like anger, wrath,punishment or vengeance, or try to make Him into a deified version of man. He is not any of these. The only reason I use He, is because I need to speak in a language that has some sort of universal understanding. I can only tell you that if you seek to find God, you will find God.
    By the way, it is my understanding that the various Hindu Deities are not separate beings, but different aspects of the One Central Godhead. Any Hindus out there may correct me if I am wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 04:35 PM

Well said, haddocker. You are correct that the various Hindu deities are simply aspects of the one Divine....which is not a human-like entity at all, but a principle which encompasses all of reality as we know it, and then some. In order that the common people could relate to that principle, it was clothed, so to speak, or translated into the various gods and goddesses, each of which was one of its attributes...like the facets on a diamond. This, people decided to do, in order that they could relate to what was in itself so large that it was completely incomprehensible.

It is itself indefinable, indescribable, and infinite. The infinite is everywhere, and everything is a part of it.

It is NOT the "God" that Guest, Ed is objecting to! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 04:36 PM

"...American politicians have deliberately pandered to and encouraged such polarization in their efforts to manipulate the results at the polls."

            LH - I think Robert F. Kennedy has this one nailed. He explained in an interview I watched some time back that the true secular American conservatives couldn't get their program off the gound. There just weren't enough converts, as witnessed by what happened to Barry Goldwater in 1964. So they went after the religious right to bulk up their numbers and forged a coalition. That way the conservatives got power, and the RR got access to power.
          What they ended up doing is electing Ronald Reagan in 1980, and America has been on the skids since that time.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 04:44 PM

Yeah, that's right, Rinslinger...and it's NOT the fault of religion itself. It's the fault of unscrupulous politicians who have cynically used religious divisions in your society to drive a wedge between people. They did it for their own gain.

The same thing happens in Trinidad, I am told by my Trinidad friends, around every election campaign. While the Christians, Muslims, and Hindus in Trinidad normally get along very well...when election time rolls around the Trini politicians deliberately inflame the religious communities against each other by raising all sorts of divisive issues. They do it to get people voting in blocs, and it greatly harms the society.

That again is NOT the fault of religion...it's the fault of cynical politicians playing games of divide and conquer.

I would suggest that every time people in the USA fall for the temptation to demonize others because they ARE or ARE NOT religious, they are falling right into the trap that some of their politicians have set for them. They have been duped into becoming bigots so some jerk can get himself elected.

Most unfortunate.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bee
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 05:31 PM

Quote: "Bee, ???. Do you somehow assume that my husband and I ignore what is wrong in religion? That anyone whose "good works" you find acceptable must be making a choice to live with blinders on? What you are doing is tokenizing the Christians whose works you "approve" of.

Sometimes I think that the anti-religionists have more faith than I do. Their faith points in the other direction-- it's a faith that no matter what reality confronts you, you can still find justifcation to claim that evil is more powerful than goodness-- but it is so strong as to get along just fine without a lot of the logical thinking they seem to think is better than the kind of faith I live. I feel very sad for those of you living in that kind of reality.

~Susan

My initial thought is that you have mostly misread my post. I don't think I am 'tokenising' anybody. I think I am trying to point out that Christians 'tokenise', separating themselves from Christian wrongdoing by claiming to be 'not like that' or 'those wrongdoers aren't real Christians'. I'm saying own them - not 'you' meaning you personally Susan, but generically, 'you well-meaning tolerant Christians'. If some group or some preacher is part of the problem, and is not acting as a Christian, speak out. We have been complaining about this issue for years, that mainstream Christians rarely address the hysterical Christian fringe, and then complain when comparisons are made.

Your second paragraph, AFAICS, doesn't relate to anything I posted, and isn't true, either. I do not claim anywhere that evil is more powerful than good. No need to feel sad for me. I'm an optimistic person who expects most people on some level do try to do good, even if they get it wrong sometimes.

And that's it. Take it or leave it, it is what I think.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 05:34 PM

"What they ended up doing is electing Ronald Reagan in 1980, and America has been on the skids since that time."

I'd rephrase this as "What they ended up doing is electing Richard Nixon in 1969, and America has been on the skids since that time"

Remember Dickie's "silent majority".

Dickie was also a Quaker ... hard to beleive.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 05:35 PM

Blow it off all you want, 282RA, but "they-ing" is the primary reason people are oppressing each other and killing each other all over the world. Always has been and probably always (at least until everybody kills everybody else off) will be.

Cramming a large part of the world's population into one conveniently labeled pigeonhole is a way of not having to bother to think.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 05:54 PM

Epiphanies, demonstrations of other dimensions, feeling the ineffable...I've had em. I liked em too.
But I damn well am not going to start a new religion and make a fortune in the god business or invest my entire life to a single religion for answers.

Its the questions that linger that are most treasured.
Some of the questions may well have answers in our midst and others may not.

Tribalism, bigotry, fear and hate too easily lead the initiated and uninitiated alike into human conflict in the name of religiosity.
Even if it is a secular power like China seeking to destroy Tibetan Buddism.

Maybe a religion that address tribalism bigotry fear etc is needed.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:00 PM

There are Christians and then there are Christians. Susan walks the walk AND talks the talk. That would put her on the side of the angels imo. I do not care particularly that Mother Teresa was Catholic. She would have been a 'saint' in any country. Good people are good people.

That said, I believe in G-d. It's religion(s) I don't have any truck with.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:01 PM

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Mary!
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:06 PM

I will repeat what i posted earlier today but for some unknown reason my post disappeared; There is only one God but with many different branches, only thing is they keep fighting each other!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:22 PM

Finally at a loss for words, Amos? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:28 PM

Mary, For all you know it might take 2 gods. Everything else in the Universe seems to support some kind of dualism for existence.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:33 PM

No, not at all, M. Hack. Why should I be? We have a rich dialogue with far-seeing, deeply-feeling people offering their views. As it happens I am more on the side of Peace and perhaps Polytheism than I am on the side of any particular religious package. But hell, I am never at a loss for words, sir, as I am sure you know by now.

Here's some for ya: The problem with packaged religions is that packaging spoils all the flavor.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:51 PM

Yes, and things go stale when they're left in the package too long... ;-)

Donuel, perhaps it is one God manfisting in the forms OF duality: both infinite and finite, both here and there, both light and darkness, both "good" and "evil".

We need duality, you see, otherwise we wouldn't be able to distinguish our separate existence or the separate existence of anything else! We wouldn't have anything else to compare ourselves to.

They say that enlightenment is achieving the awareness that there is no duality, that all is One. At that point, all strife ends, all desire ends, there is only pure Being.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:57 PM

>>>Blow it off all you want, 282RA, but "they-ing" is the primary reason people are oppressing each other and killing each other all over the world. Always has been and probably always (at least until everybody kills everybody else off) will be.

Cramming a large part of the world's population into one conveniently labeled pigeonhole is a way of not having to bother to think.<<<

No, I'm not falling for that. I'm not going to qualify my statements that I don't mean this Christian or that because then all of them start think "He doesn't mean me." Yes, I do. Christians have proven they can organize and coordinate their activities so I don't want to hear this "We're not all doing that." Doesn't matter. They're supposed to be Christians, they're supposed to care, they're supposed to be moral. Very well, then, organize a movement to shut down the tobacco companies--put them out of business. No mercy, no exceptions. Do it.

If they want power, they will have it like they never had it before. March in the streets, write articles, pressure politicians, out the ones that do the bidding of these companies and threaten to boot their asses out into the cold without so much as a fig leaf for protection. Go on TV and bitch about what these people are doing. DEMAND the govt release a FULL LIST of EVERYTHING that these executive meth lab operators put in cigarettes (it's currently illegal to release a full list, anyone who does will go to prison) so that people can see what crap is being peddled to them that they are not being told about. Show interviews with the cancer-stricken.

For once, Christians and scientists will be on the same side. Many people will quit smoking once they see what is being done to them. Prosecute the people responsible for the madness, show how much money is saved every year not having to treat so many cancer patients.

To regard abortion as a bigger menace to society than cigarettes reveals a bankrupt morality. But going after the tobacco giants is something Christians of all stripes can unite on.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 07:22 PM

Heh! Well, 282RA, why don't you convert to Christianity then, and start organizing all the Christians you can to join in massive public action against the tobacco industry? The mere fact that you are standing aside may be what's holding them back!!! ;-) They NEED your leadership and inspiration, man!

Seriously....I know any number of nominal Christians who are against smoking and against the tobacco industry. I know a lot of Christians who DON'T think abortion is a bigger problem than the sale of tobacco. Get serious, man. Your efforts to pretend that you are not tarring a whole lot of innocent people needlessly with the same brush when you talk about what you call "Christians" are approaching an excess of satirical self-justification that would embarrass Jerry Lewis.

Nothing can please someone with the kind of accusatory, condemnatory attitude you are bringing to this discussion. It wouldn't matter what "Christians" did or didn't do, you'd still be bitching about them.

And note, 282RA...I am not a Christian. I'm just a free being who recognizes blind prejudice when I hear it, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 07:40 PM

Haven't heard any opinions from any of the Wiccans regarding this thread.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 08:08 PM

Little Hawk said it. Saved me the trouble. Thank you, Little Hawk!

By the way, here's the big split that runs all through your handy monolithic view of Christianity, 242RA (and undoubtedly through your other monolithic groups as well):   get a bunch of Christians together and, unless it's some group like the Southern Baptist Leadership Conference (and although they make a lot of noise, there are not that many of them), you'll have a hard time getting them to agree on much of anything! That's why there are as many Christian denominations as there are.

Gotta broaden your focus and try to learn what the world is really like.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:09 PM

Little Hawk, your problem--and we talked about this before--is that you are a fundamentalist at heart. You are simply unable to accept an atheist or agnostic position. Whenever it is expressed, you become incensed and unable to deal with it in an intelligent manner. Let's take a look:

"But here's what I really think about it. People who start provocative, useless threads like this one should be doomed to eternal harassment by people exactly like themselves, but with precisely the opposite outward beliefs! Judgmental, self-righteous pests with a zeal to convert, in other words."

What is useless about someone expressing an opinion that there is no god? Nothing. It's a perfectly legitimate topic to post about if he wished to. There's no rule here that says he can't. You have NO RIGHT to berate someone this way. You do have the right to stay the fuck off the thread if the topic is of such little interest to you as you claim.

But it is of intense interest to you, isn't it? You CAN'T deal with people expressing an atheistic opinion. And your first resort is the incredibly childish "Oh I used to be that way when I was young and rebellious but not anymore" Translation: Only someone immature and needing attention is an atheist. Let's take a look:

"Amos, no, I haven't gotten around to reading Mr Dawkins yet. Why? His general premise (going by what I hear about him) just doesn't interest me enough to bother looking into it. There are a lot of other things I'm more likely to read before I get around to reading him. I mean, hell, I went through the "religion is all a bunch of crap" mindset when I was a teenager...and that was a long time ago. I think I've outgrown such crass and prejudicial attitudes, hopefully."

You have no idea what Dawkins has written and you don't care. You so outgrew this long ago and are so much more mature than people who express Dawkins' point of view. You are a pathetic little man and that should be your true moniker--Little Man. I berated you in private about this attitude of yours and you seemed to stop for a while but now you are back at it again full throttle. The arrogant one is you. The one who contributes nothing but judgmental bullshit is you.

You know this, so what you do is project that onto people who do not measure up to you oh-so-mature "I was blind but now I see" attitude.

Now let's examine your amazing self-righteousness in all its glory:

"Seriously....I know any number of nominal Christians who are against smoking and against the tobacco industry. I know a lot of Christians who DON'T think abortion is a bigger problem than the sale of tobacco."

Yes, let's introduce useless anecdotal evidence in an literally incredible, transparent, lame attempt to once again make your pronouncement that those who do not share your views of religion are arrogant and condemanatory.

"Get serious, man."

I am serious, man.

"Your efforts to pretend that you are not tarring a whole lot of innocent people needlessly with the same brush when you talk about what you call "Christians" are approaching an excess of satirical self-justification that would embarrass Jerry Lewis."

Even if this was true, I do not resort to the self-serving, arrogant attitude of "once I was like you, when I was young and stupid and needed something to rebel against but I grew out of it, so what's your problem?" As if anyone who is an atheist just hasn't grown up like you obviously have. You're a hypocrite besides being a complete asshole.

"Nothing can please someone with the kind of accusatory, condemnatory attitude you are bringing to this discussion."

The discussion is that there are no gods. You have no right to come here and act like I butted into some kind of Christian fellowship meeting. It is you who busted in and it is you who have brought an accusatory and condemnatory attitude here and I might add--VERY ARROGANT asshole attitude. Your whine comes more from the fact that I--someone whose views of religion you are unable to intelligently tolerate--made a suggestion to Christians that is actually very practical and that's what bugs you. How dare I--a mere little atheist bug--suggest something to Christians that you and they know they should have been doing long ago instead wasting time trying to hijack the republican party to push a shameless, self-serving agenda. They doesn't bug you, though, because at least they're not atheists.

>>It wouldn't matter what "Christians" did or didn't do, you'd still be bitching about them.<<

And it wouldn't matter what atheists do or don't do, you'd still mouth off your idiotic arrogant bullshit to them because you do it in every single post on the subject. The proof is that we've had this discussion before and you are still doing it. Now let's go back to your first insolent statement and see it for what it is:

"But here's what I really think about it. People who start provocative, useless threads like this one should be doomed to eternal harassment by people exactly like themselves, but with precisely the opposite outward beliefs! Judgmental, self-righteous pests with a zeal to convert, in other words."

That's exactly what he got: YOU.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:11 PM

One thing in cigarettes that they don't disclose is a fair amount of benzene.

No duality if all is one?

Well vivre la diffrence anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:17 PM

Gentlemen: NOT in the presence of G-d.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:17 PM

>>By the way, here's the big split that runs all through your handy monolithic view of Christianity, 242RA (and undoubtedly through your other monolithic groups as well):   get a bunch of Christians together and, unless it's some group like the Southern Baptist Leadership Conference (and although they make a lot of noise, there are not that many of them), you'll have a hard time getting them to agree on much of anything! That's why there are as many Christian denominations as there are.<<

Translation: Christianity is essentially useless because we can't even agree on what's moral and what isn't.

Thanks, that's EXACTLY what I've been bitching about.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:23 PM

Ingredients in a cigarette.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:25 PM

>>One thing in cigarettes that they don't disclose is a fair amount of benzene.<<

They released a partial list some years ago, if I remember correctly and I think benzene was on that list. I think acetone was too. I mean, THAT's what they told us about. I can only wonder what they still decided to keep secret because benzine and acetone are two EXTREMELY toxic substances. Hell, nicotine is one of the most powerful poisons known to man.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:26 PM

>>Gentlemen: NOT in the presence of G-d.<<

Holy shit, he looks pissed!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:40 PM

>>Ingredients in a cigarette.<<

A very partial list. But even ingredients as acetic acid--which I believe is just vinegar--is there for some reason and may seem harmless but, as the host of that site points out, who knows what it does to you when it's burned and drawn into the lungs and mixed with whatever else you're burning and drawing into your lungs with each puff?

I know when I leave a bar after playing an open mic show, I have to shuck off my clothes and shake them out before washing them and I don't dare go to bed without a good scrub-down in the shower. In the morning, I can still smell the shit because it's coating the insides of my nostrils and throat. I have to take a lot of time off between performances because I can't deal with it. I don't know how for the life of me people smoke that garbage day after day after day. I don't let people smoke in my house either. The last time someone did (my brother's wife who didn't even ask if it was okay before lighting up which pissed me off), I could smell it three days later. Smokers don't understand that nonsmokers' sense of smell is far more sensitive than theirs and that it just plain stinks like hell. They don't get it. They act like you're an asshole if you complain about it.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:49 PM

definately don't smoke in front of her (whether your wiccan, athiest, or whatever)!!

YIKES !!

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 01:16 AM

Great picture, Peace!

282RA - My, my, you are quite concerned about this, aren't you? Just as much as you claim that I am.

So who put the monkey on your back? ;-) Why can't you stay away from these threads and this subject?

I do not object to people stating that they are atheists. I object them trying to force everyone else to be one too by suggesting that everyone who isn't an atheist is an idiot...that is why I objected to the post that started this thread. As I've said many times, I would far rather be around some honest, dependable atheists, than some dishonest, undependable people who are religious! Underline that. Most of all, I'd rather be around honest, dependable people who live their own beliefs in peace and allow others to do the same. I ENJOY being in a society with many beliefs, many viewpoints. I don't WANT everyone to be the same.

I think you are suffering from the same problem you accuse me of...and if you want an understanding of why I'm interested in it, you need to read some advanced spiritual writings that Christian fundamentalists have never looked into in their lives and never will...but you never will either, because you're not uninterested in such writings. Just like I'm uninterested in Mr Dawkins. If he wants to convince me that fundamentalist Christians are wrong, he'd be telling me something I already knew a long, long time ago!!! ;-)

As far as I'm concerned you're railing at people similar to yourself (religious fundamentalists) because their fossilized attitude toward life and their rank prejudice toward those who don't share their values reminds you of yourself. It's the mirror-image of you. They hate you like you hate them.

Their left hand is your right hand, and vice versa.

Keep in mind, I'm talking rather dispassionately here. I see no reason to engage in the sort of highly emotional spewing of hatred and personal insults that our disagreement on this subject brings forth out of you...because what good would it do? And why should I hate you, just because we disagree about something?

It's not that important, believe me. There will be plenty of religious fundamentalists, plenty of atheists, and plenty of prejudice between them both long after you and I are dead and gone.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 01:18 AM

Fundamentalist Atheist as just as insane as Fundamentalist members of ANY Religion...

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 01:23 AM

I don't think tobacco companys have anything to do with Christianity. Why lay that on Christians alone?

Now don't go gettin off on me about this 282RA, I agree that tailor made cigarettes are nasty, chemically induced, and poisonous. I agree the tobacco co.'s should stop what they're doing to tobacco, but...

Tobacco has been around a long time used not only as a medicinal but it is considered sacred to certain cultures and used, for one example, by Shamans in ceremonial practice. Tobacco actually has a very interesting history to it.
Some might even say, um, God put it here on this earth.

Peace.
Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 01:29 AM

The reason I come to all these threads, by the way, is simple, 282AR. Spirituality in all its various wonderful varieties fascinates me. I would rather talk about the spiritual nature of life and man than about anything else at all. As far as I'm concerned, it's the world's most interesting subject....and it is NOT dependent upon belief in any diety...though it can definitely go into that possibility.

If you were to study Taoism or Buddhism, for instance, you would find no deity. Taoism is the most sensible spiritual philosophy I've come across yet. Buddhism is very sensible too, but I like Taoism a bit better because it has a more cheerful outlook on life.

I am not a Taoist, but I like Taoism. I am not a Buddhist, but I like Buddhism. I am not a scientist, but I like scientific thought and scientific information. I am not a Christian, but I like the philosophy that Jesus appears to have taught (according to what writings we have about him). I am not a Hindu, but I like the writings in the Baghavad Gita and the Upanishads. There's much of value there. I'm not a Muslim, but I find much in value in their writings and their cultural history...quite aside from the fundamentalist extremes we see in some of their followers today.

I don't have the enemies that you seem to have. And I don't want to.

I don't see any benefit in having enemies, frankly.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:07 AM

I don't see any benefit in having enemies, frankly.

Well, LH, consider how much spice having a good enemy adds to life! How much drama!! Suddenly, there's tension, a plot, an obstacle to overcome, counter-forces to be out-manuvered! Intentions to be thwarted!! Survival to be gained!! Yaaaayyyyy, team!! Go, go, go!! Hurl 'em back to Nassau, Eli! Bulldog, bulldog!!

And so on.

But, of course, there really is only one Enemy, just as there is only one Friend and one God and one Mentor, and that is the Self.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: goatfell
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:15 AM

As a Born again Christian (someone who is born again in Christ, and Christ lives in me and I in him) (preaching now Stop it) so as far as i'm conserernd (spelling) there's a God, if there wasn't a God then why celebrate Christmas (the birth of Christ, the son of God) then.

But then that is up to you.

I hope you all a merry Chrsitmas

and may your god/God go with you.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:20 AM

Peace

Gentlemen: NOT in the presence of G-d.

Looks like the Flying Sphagetti Monster to me.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:24 AM

Well, there are plenty of reasons to celebrate Christmas that have nothing to do with Christ, amigo. The annual "We are surviving the cold white stuff", for example. Hope that there will be a Spring, at a time when it seems so far away. Celebrate human endurance, ingenuity, and the ability to survive on a cold piece of the planet. (At least, IIRC -- we don't do much cold here in San Diego).

Or, you could celbrate the spirit of human generosity and interdependent caring that comes to the fore during the season-when so many people bend over backwards to somehow find an object that will add to another's happiness and make or acquire it solely to give it to that person. That's a lot of human affinity, old son, and it requires no Godhead to be compelling.

Or, if you go in for that kind of thing, there's the annual opportunity to stroll down the street in a clump of friends singing. If you do that most times of the year you are likely to be condemned or even incarcerated. How's that for jolly?

Plus, there is the opportunity to gather up extra special foods and start a big family meal and have a roaring fire in the fireplace and sneak around looking at shiny wrapped packages. That's a hoot. Worth celebrating. Hell, just getting together with folks who are willing to say "I love you" is a fine annual event.

It also provides a great opportunity to do a yearly review on oneself to determine whether one has, in one's own estimation, been adequately nice or naughty, and determine a new course of action based on one's own best ethical perceptions of right living, right action, and so on.

Note that none of this requires any divine figures to jump into the mix.



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:32 AM

I think now that this is not a dialogue here. A dialogue to me is an exchange of useful information, it isn't a pissing contest.

Having read Dawkins and seeing his lectures, I think he is not as combative as he is made out to be. I see him as being very sensitive to people. His biggest complaint is that religion is often forced on children before they have a chance to decide for themselves about belief. I think this is fair.

I don't think one can be persuaded on anything through insults and anger.

As to tobacco, I don't ever want to be around it. The problem is that it is a highly addictive drug and unfortunately is not limited to the user. It can be spread through side-stream smoke. I don't see this as a religious or non-religious issue. It's just common sense that
smoking doesn't serve any useful or positive purpose.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: bobad
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 12:24 PM

"Fundamentalist Atheist as just as insane as Fundamentalist members of ANY Religion"

I don't agree with that statement, theism is a belief atheism is not.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 12:28 PM

One believes there is a God and one believes there is no God..so are both beliefs or not?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 12:36 PM

f there wasn't a God then why celebrate Christmas (the birth of Christ, the son of God) then.

1. We were celebrating at that time in the UK long before Jesus was born. It's the change from dark to light nights.

2. No evidence whatsoever when Jesus was born - except for certain it wasn't December 25th. Nor was it 0 BC - morel likely 5/6 BC

I wouldn't take the bible as gospel if I were you!!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 12:48 PM

Most atheists will not assert there is no God, only that the evidence available to them does not support postulating that there is one. That is a very different proposition.

One states a proposition is just plain false; the other states that a proposition is not reasonable based on evidence to date.

One is a statement of faith, while the other is an effort to bring reason to bear on data.

A

Subject: Lyr Add: YULE (John F. Weldon)
From: john f weldon
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 01:07 PM

Aha, the discussion moves on to Yuletide, which of course, precedes Christianity by many millenia. Yule is for everyone! Here's a poem on the subject....


Yule: by John F. Weldon

When human hopes had just begun
In distant prehistoric times
We feared the fading of the sun
Especially in these Northern climes
For with the dark would come the chill
Frost and snow replacing rain
And we were left to wonder: Will
That sun e'er rise so high again?

And so we cut the deathless Pine
And hauled it to our cabins rude
And lit it up, that it would shine
Upon our gifts, and wine, and food.
The other Beasts looked on with scorn
That Man alone was such a fool
To celebrate the darkest morn
To dance and sing and call it Yule.

Yet all around the blazing Tree
Through chilly nights and shortened days
Mankind with cheerful revelry
Implored the sun to spread its Rays
And once a year, that darkest time
Mankind would thus enchant the sun
Which then would start its upward climb
Back when our dreams had just begun.

Now men have science and predict
The solstice and the equinox
To one ten-thousandth of a tick
With lasers and atomic clocks
Yet every year we quell our fears
With food and drink and song and dance
It works! The sun soon re-appears
So why then should we take a chance?

We'll toast with Mead, and Beer, and Stout
Wine and Whiskey, Rum and Gin!
For though the Winter howls without...
We'll keep the hope of spring within
So Bar the Door against the chill
Prepare that fine and mighty feast
For we were once and we are still
A puny, naked, frightened Beast.

Seasons greetings all!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: haddocker
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 02:29 PM

There seems to be enough material here for a dissertation, if that is what GUEST Ed is aiming for, but I agree with stringsinger. This is starting to deteriorate from dialogue to verbal combat. Each one's spiritual journey is distinct from all others, regardless of the starting point. As far as God is concerned, it is all about relationship, and we all have that with God, in varying degrees. So, I must ask GUEST Ed as to what his journey is all about, as well as the origins of this vehement denial of God and Jesus the Christ. So, GUEST Ed, let's get personal. Also, I have to ask: "Why are you bringing such a subject up in a site dedicated to traditional music?"

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 02:36 PM

Good to see some Wicca/Pagan input here in this thread!

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 03:09 PM

Ah, yes, the great Yule Festival. What is now the Christmas holiday and celebration was indeed once a Pagan festival which celebrated the end of the longest night of the year in the northern hemisphere, Dec 22-23, and the subsequent return of the sun...as the days start getting longer after the winter solstice. It pre-existed Christianity for thousands of years...probably tens of thousands of years, in fact. The return of longer days is a VERY important event in Nature, as human life depends on the return of warm weather and the annual growing season.

The Romans grafted the Christian religion onto that ancient festival. It was common in those times to move a new religion onto old festival dates from previous religions.

I suspect they then added 3 days (Dec 23,24,25) to symbolize the 3 days that Christ supposedly lay in the tomb (or descended into Hades...whichever version you prefer) before rising on the symbolic 25th.

Interestingly enough, the old festival celebrated the rebirth of the sun (in the sky)....the new festival as designated by the Christians celebrated the rebirth of the Son (Jesus). I doubt that that was a mere coincidence. Many of the old religions saw the sun as a visible manifestation of God. Therefore God's sun = God's Son.

I am not stating my own beliefs here, merely speculating about some of the thinking that may have underlaid the Roman's decision to arbitrarily move Jesus' birthday to December 25th. His actual birthday appears to have been in the mid-Spring, not in December, so the Romans moved it to coincide with the Solstice celebrations...an adroit move, typical of the pragmatic Romans, who always knew how to combine religion and politics for maximum effect. ;-)

Amos, you said, "Well, LH, consider how much spice having a good enemy adds to life! How much drama!! Suddenly, there's tension, a plot, an obstacle to overcome, counter-forces to be out-manuvered! Intentions to be thwarted!! Survival to be gained!! Yaaaayyyyy, team!! Go, go, go!! Hurl 'em back to Nassau, Eli! Bulldog, bulldog!!"

True! Enemies are almost indispensible if you want a dramatic storyline in a book or a movie, aren't they? ;-) In real life, though, the truly wise man does not seek out enemies...unless he simply has no choice about the matter... Crazy Horse, for example, had no choice about the matter after a certain point of the White westward expansion, did he? (but being a Lakota Souix warrior, he would have sought out enemies regardless...they took doing that for granted...it was the path to honour and renown for warriors to fight enemies in that society)

And then you said, "But, of course, there really is only one Enemy, just as there is only one Friend and one God and one Mentor, and that is the Self.

Right on, brother. That's the hard, cold truth...but only one in 10,000 people will admit to it under most circumstances. People would always rather think the enemy is the "other guy", because it relieves them of all responsibility for their own actions, and it gives them full rein to hate, judge, and condemn.

Jesus (and Buddha) (and Krishna) advised against all of that kind of negative judgement of others, and, boy, was he (Jesus) detested by a lot of people for having done so! It ruins most people's fun totally when they hear his opinion on that matter. ;-) They just hate having their right to enjoy their hatred disallowed by some meddling holy man. Such holy men are to be considered lucky if they don't get crucified by an angry mob, matter of fact.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 03:34 PM

>>I don't think tobacco companys have anything to do with Christianity. Why lay that on Christians alone?<<

Well, they want to tackle the abortion issue. They want to tackle the gay marriage issue. Neither of those have anything to do with Christianity either. There is not a word about abortion in the entire bible and David eulogizes Jonathan by saying his love was more pleasurable than that of women.

The point is, people need to have access to abortions--safe and legal abortions. Christians have no right to try and take that away.

Gay marriage doesn't hurt anybody whatsoever and Christians have no right to try and ban love between human beings.

Cigarettes otoh are a deadly poison sold openly to people by execs with no conscience who rake in millions a year if not billions, killing millions annually worldwide, poisoning even those who choose not to smoke and Christians don't seem to find this immoral enough to organize against it.

I'm saying if they REALLY care about doing something good for humanity then go after something like that and stop trying to hurt innocent people.

And I'm only talking about activist Christians. I don't care about nominal ones. This is for the ones who can't mind their own fucking business just have to try and save the whole world from itself. Christians who mind their own business I have no issue with.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 04:02 PM

282RA - I'm going to assume that you are very active in the movement to stop the use and sale of tobacco products. If organized religions were to get active in that regard - what would you suggest they do to get started? What actions are you taking - and how can organized religions follow in your footsteps?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:15 PM

"Well, they want to tackle the abortion issue. They want to tackle the gay marriage issue. Neither of those have anything to do with Christianity either."

Agreed!

"There is not a word about abortion in the entire bible and David eulogizes Jonathan by saying his love was more pleasurable than that of women."

Agreed!

"The point is, people need to have access to abortions--safe and legal abortions. Christians have no right to try and take that away."

Agreed!!!


"Gay marriage doesn't hurt anybody whatsoever and Christians have no right to try and ban love between human beings."

Agreed!!!

"Cigarettes are a deadly poison sold openly to people by execs with no conscience who rake in millions a year if not billions, killing millions annually worldwide, poisoning even those who choose not to smoke...."

AGREED!!!! And how. I have hated cigarettes with a passion since I was old enough to breathe, let alone walk, and I come from a non-smoking family, and have never been a smoker. I consider the tobacco-selling business to be a giant drug-pushing operation, and I would be pleased to see it removed from the face of the Earth (Except for some traditional people such as Native Americans who grow, harvest, and smoke their own if they wish to, but do NOT sell it commercially to anyone. That I could put up with, because it's part of their ancient culture.)

"...and Christians don't seem to find this immoral enough to organize against it."

Ummm...that depends on which Christians you are referring to. There are many people opposed to smoking, and more than a few of them are Christians, but the vocally noticeable protesting Christian pressure groups who happen to bug you (and me) are so busy yelling about abortion and gay marriage and stuff like that that they perhaps haven't the time or energy to yell about tobacco abuse??? That would be my guess. Besides, would the press cover it if they did? Naw...not newsworthy. The press WILL cover it if they picket an abortion clinic or a movie they don't like....THAT's considered newsworthy! ;-) Reasonable Christians who mind their own business are NOT considered newsworthy, so don't expect to hear about them on the 6 O'Clock News.


"I'm saying if they REALLY care about doing something good for humanity then go after something like that and stop trying to hurt innocent people."

Agreed!

"And I'm only talking about activist Christians. I don't care about nominal ones. This is for the ones who can't mind their own fucking business just have to try and save the whole world from itself. Christians who mind their own business I have no issue with."

AGREED!!!!!!!!!!!!

See, we aren't so much at odds as you thought. In fact, we are barely at odds whatsoever when it comes to actual issues.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:25 PM

>>Jesus (and Buddha) (and Krishna) advised against all of that kind of negative judgement of others, and, boy, was he (Jesus) detested by a lot of people for having done so!<<

And isn't it ironic that you have behaved in that fashion throughout this thread and been praised for it?

MEET THE GALLERY OF PEOPLE OBVIOUSLY MORE IMMATURE, CRASS AND PREJUDICED THAN LITTLE HAWK:

Whatever we cannot easily understand we call God; this saves much wear and tear on the brain tissues. --Edward Abbey

All thinking men are atheists. --Ernest Hemingway

When I think of all the harm [the bible] has done, I despair of ever writing anything to equal it. --Oscar Wilde

Must then a Christ perish in torment in every age to save those that have no imagination? --George Bernard Shaw

Faith is when you believe in something that no one in their right mind would believe. --Archie Bunker

She was a good Christian woman with a large respect for religion, though she did not, of course, believe any of it was true. --Flannery O'Connor

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. --Voltaire

It is a curious thing...that every creed promises a paradise which will be absolutely uninhabitable for anyone of civilized taste. -- Evelyn Waugh

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. --Blaise Pascal

Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich. --Napoleon Bonaparte

In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practitioners. --Jonathan Miller

The religions of mankind must be classed among the mass-delusions of this kind. No one, needless to say, who shares a delusion ever recognizes it as such. --Sigmund Freud

I prayed for freedom twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. --Frederick Douglass

I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in "A," "B," "C," and "D." Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of ever religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism." --Barry Goldwater

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. --George Bernard Shaw

You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. --Carl Sagan

When lip service to some mysterious deity permits bestiality on Wednesday and absolution on Sunday--cash me out. --Frank Sinatra

The churches have no confidence in each other. Why? Because they are acquainted with each other. --Robert Green Ingersoll

The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. --Richard Francis Burton

If ignorance of nature gave birth to gods, knowledge of nature is made for their destruction. --Percy Bysshe Shelley

Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt. --Clarence Darrow

But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most? --Mark Twain

Accustom a people to believe that priests, or any other class of men, can forgive sins, and you will have sins in abundance. --Thomas Paine

With soap, baptism is a good thing. --Robert Green Ingersoll

In order to exist just once in the world, it is necessary never again to exist. --Albert Camus

Certainty about the next life is simply incompatible with tolerance in this one. --Sam Harris

Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived. --Isaac Asimov

All gods are dead except the god of war. --Eldredge Cleaver

Once miracles are admitted, every scientific explanation is out of the question. --Johannes Kepler

Religion provides the solace for the turmoil it creates. --Byron Danelius

Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim. --George Santayana

Its hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning. --Bill Watterson

If triangles made a god, they would give him three sides. --Montesquieu

We are punished by our sins, not for them. --Elbert Hubbard

Perhaps the whole root of our trouble, the human trouble, is that we will sacrifice all the beauty of our lives, will imprison ourselves in totems, taboos, crosses, blood sacrifices, steeples, mosques, races, armies, flags, nations, in order to deny the fact of death, which is the only fact we have. --James Baldwin

One is often told that it is a very wrong thing to attack religion, because religion makes men virtuous. So I am told; I have not noticed it. --Bertrand Russell

Let me alone. Good day. --Thomas Paine on his deathbed when asked by a clergyman if he would like to confess before Christ.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:33 PM

>>282RA - I'm going to assume that you are very active in the movement to stop the use and sale of tobacco products. If organized religions were to get active in that regard - what would you suggest they do to get started? What actions are you taking - and how can organized religions follow in your footsteps?<<

Oh no, I'm not the tiniest bit active about it. Not at all. I'm not interested in saving humanity. I'm not in the business of crusading about your lack of morals. I'm not the tiniest bit concerned about your lifestyle. If you, however, feel you need to do those things, may I suggest organizing a massive protest against the tobacco giants so that some good will hopefully come out of all your efforts. If you don't want to do that then please go about your business and stay out of mine and I will gladly reciprocate.

The ONLY time I will ever go into the public arena and raise a huge fuss is when you feel you need to mind my business more than your own.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:38 PM

"I'm not in the business of crusading about your lack of morals."

Has this turned personal for you? You are assuming facts not in evidence. You know nothing about my morals. Chill just a little bit please. We're trying to have a discussion here. There's no need to attack anyone in particular.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:41 PM

Why is it that you are so lacking in any inclination to find common ground with someone after disagreeing about something, 282? All you're doing is telling me how awful I am. Am I supposed to be hurt, burst into tears, and run away and hide? ;-)

This is really just a sad performance on your part. Give up the grudge match. Try to find something we agree about instead.

And, hey, how did you find all those great quotes so quickly? Yowsa! Pretty cool. Where could you even find the time? ;-)

Got a book of great quotes handy?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:44 PM

I see that this thread is in good hands.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:45 PM

What kids think of G-d.

You can 'maximize' the letters by putting your cursor at the lower right-hand corner of the lot.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:46 PM

Any list of quotes that uses Archie Bunker and "Calvin and Hobbs" to help make their points is alright by me.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 06:05 PM

I've had more than my fair share of encounters with Christian evangelists. Hell, when I was a hospital in Denver for a couple of months, I had a fundamentalist minister as a room mate! If you don't think that wasn't a royal pain in the ass, you have another think coming!

And during the Sixties, when I was packing my guitar around Seattle's University District, a local Bible college sent a horde of students to the U. District to save the souls of us misguided hippies (all folk singers are hippies, of course). I couldn't walk into bookstore or a pizza parlor without getting mugged at the door by some aggressive evangelizer trying to save my soul. I got pretty glib at blowing them off. Had to. Survival mechanism.

I have also encountered more than my fair share of evangelistic atheists.

And I can say this from a wealth of experience:    There are damned few people more aggressive and hostile than evangelistic atheists!

That's a fact!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 06:10 PM

"Whatever we cannot easily understand we call God; this saves much wear and tear on the brain tissues. --Edward Abbey"

True, in the case of people who have a primitive, anthropomorphic understanding of "God", as they choose to call it.

"All thinking men are atheists. --Ernest Hemingway"

Patently and grossly untrue. But Hemingway wasn't perfect.

"When I think of all the harm [the bible] has done, I despair of ever writing anything to equal it. --Oscar Wilde"

Yeah, I can certainly sympathize with that.

"Must then a Christ perish in torment in every age to save those that have no imagination? --George Bernard Shaw"

Hmm. I don't know. Must one? I have no answer to that.

"Faith is when you believe in something that no one in their right mind would believe. --Archie Bunker"

No, faith is when you believe in something you cannot yet prove, and MANY in their right mind may believe similarly as you about it...or not...depends what it is, and who they are.

"She was a good Christian woman with a large respect for religion, though she did not, of course, believe any of it was true. --Flannery O'Connor"

For sure. She was concerned about fitting in to the society at the time. People are like that.

"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. --Voltaire"

Yeah, that sounds very likely to me too.

"It is a curious thing...that every creed promises a paradise which will be absolutely uninhabitable for anyone of civilized taste. -- Evelyn Waugh"

That's amusing! ;-) It's witty. But it's not necessarily true. Some creeds promise reincarnation. Others promise a return to not a paradise, but a featureless void where all individuality ceases to be. Others promise no return whatsoever, but focus on life HERE and NOW.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. --Blaise Pascal"

Sounds good, but it is equally true of men with extreme political convictions (like Pol Pot or Mao Tse Tung) AND men who are after a whole lot of fast MONEY! Al Capone was cheerful in his convictions too.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich. --Napoleon Bonaparte"

For awhile......! But not forever.

"In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practitioners. --Jonathan Miller"

That's true! Good point, Jonathan.

"The religions of mankind must be classed among the mass-delusions of this kind. No one, needless to say, who shares a delusion ever recognizes it as such. --Sigmund Freud"

Yeah. Freud had a few delusions of his own too...he had some truly weird ideas about male and female motivations. "Penis envy" is one that merits a good laugh, I think.

"I prayed for freedom twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. --Frederick Douglass"

Well, Duh! Ever heard the expression, "God helps those who help themselves."?

"I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in "A," "B," "C," and "D." Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of ever religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism." --Barry Goldwater"

Good for you, Barry. I'm right with you on that.

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. --George Bernard Shaw"

This depends on what the believer believes IN, doesn't it? Someone who believes he's going to hell is NOT happy! (p.s. I don't believe in Hell).

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. --Carl Sagan"

True. That's the trouble with George Bush. Well, it's one of the troubles with George Bush. ;-)

"When lip service to some mysterious deity permits bestiality on Wednesday and absolution on Sunday--cash me out. --Frank Sinatra"

I cashed Sinatra out a long time ago. But I'd have to agree with him on that one 100%.

"The churches have no confidence in each other. Why? Because they are acquainted with each other. --Robert Green Ingersoll"

Ha! LOL! Devastating. I agree wholeheartedly.

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. --Richard Francis Burton"

Sounds about right to me. ;-)

"If ignorance of nature gave birth to gods, knowledge of nature is made for their destruction. --Percy Bysshe Shelley"

That's an interesting one. I'm sure that any god someone made could also be destroyed, all right.

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt. --Clarence Darrow"

BLOODY RIGHT! Children should question EVERYTHING.

"But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most? --Mark Twain"

I'll agree with Mark Twain on that. Good point.

"Accustom a people to believe that priests, or any other class of men, can forgive sins, and you will have sins in abundance. --Thomas Paine"

DAMN BLOODY RIGHT!!!!!!

"With soap, baptism is a good thing. --Robert Green Ingersoll"

Yeah, I guess....but I have no concerns about the practice of baptism one way or another. Them as wants it can have it, I guess.

"In order to exist just once in the world, it is necessary never again to exist. --Albert Camus"

Yes..........and?

"Certainty about the next life is simply incompatible with tolerance in this one. --Sam Harris"

Who's certain about it??????

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived. --Isaac Asimov"

Possibly, depending on who you look at it, I guess. Personally, I can say that it definitely had that effect on me more than once when I read this or that passage. There's some totally weird stuff in the Bible, and I do not consider it my spiritual guidebook.

"All gods are dead except the god of war. --Eldredge Cleaver"

Not true. The God of Money is alive and well, as are a whole bunch of other Gods that I listed a couple of days ago. The God of nationalism is another. Then there are the Gods of fame, youth, good looks, and being seen as a "winner". They're all very much alive.

"Once miracles are admitted, every scientific explanation is out of the question. --Johannes Kepler"

There are no miracles, only certain natural events as yet not understood.

"Religion provides the solace for the turmoil it creates. --Byron Danelius"

For some, that is true.

"Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim. --George Santayana"

Yeah. Observe Bush in Iraq. But HAS he forgotten his aim? That's the question.

"Its hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning. --Bill Watterson"

Ha! No, it isn't. It's just hard to be satisfied when they aren't.

"If triangles made a god, they would give him three sides. --Montesquieu"

Yes! And if rabbits made a god, he'd have big floppy ears, and no one would nibble on Sunday.

"We are punished by our sins, not for them. --Elbert Hubbard"

Eloquently put. I agree entirely.

"Perhaps the whole root of our trouble, the human trouble, is that we will sacrifice all the beauty of our lives, will imprison ourselves in totems, taboos, crosses, blood sacrifices, steeples, mosques, races, armies, flags, nations, in order to deny the fact of death, which is the only fact we have. --James Baldwin"

Most people do tend to deny death. I don't. I expect to die, probably within the next 10 to 15 years, and maybe sooner. I don't particularly mind dying when the time comes. It's one of the most obvious eventualities I can possibly name, and I have no doubt that it's going to happen.

"One is often told that it is a very wrong thing to attack religion, because religion makes men virtuous. So I am told; I have not noticed it. --Bertrand Russell"

LOL! Ever the wit, Bertrand. Nice one. ;-)

"Let me alone. Good day. --Thomas Paine on his deathbed when asked by a clergyman if he would like to confess before Christ"

Right on. I can definitely relate to Tom Paine on that one.

*************************


See? I agreed with most of that too. Whatcha gonna do now?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 06:19 PM

It looks like there's a really big difference between Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan.

                   The Flannery O'Connor quote surprised me.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 06:39 PM

Whew .... reading this thread is beginning to feel like sitting through High Mass ... in Latin ... it all starts to sound like a droning chant.

biLL :)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 06:40 PM

>>Has this turned personal for you? You are assuming facts not in evidence. You know nothing about my morals. Chill just a little bit please. We're trying to have a discussion here. There's no need to attack anyone in particular.<<

Since I do, in fact, know nothing about your morals, then it would be a good bet to assume my statement was simply rhetorical.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 07:02 PM

My favorite child's letter to god was from an 8-year-old boy:

"Dear god, How did you first know you were god?"

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 07:27 PM

Right now, there are entire TV programs and segments 'examining' the various US presidential candidates' religious preference and the presumed relevance to their character and abilities.
It sort of started because Romney & Huckabee have deeply held positions which seem to cast doubt on their neutrality on various issues.
   What it has led to is a rush by ALL candidates to assure voters that they ALL 'believe in God and Jesus' and will uphold Christian values...though they **of course** would NEVER let those beliefs interfere with their job, should they become president.

What I see in all of this is that the supposed Constitutional "separation of Church and State" has become almost a joke. What does it mean when, as soon as a candidate declares he is running, he is immediately quizzed on his religious affiliation and it's details? ....Well, first it means that it is EXTREMELY unlikely that a person with no Christian affiliation could possibly be elected, no matter how well qualified.
   Next, it means that if he does declare an affiliation, entire block of voters will dissect it and issue proclamations of approval or warning.

Does anyone remember how Dwight Eisenhower had to search for a handy, low-key church to be 'seen' in?

   It has become a major issue in American politics and is affecting the very fabric of how we conduct elections. Doesn't the sight of various Theocracies in the world tell us how dangerous it is to **REQUIRE** a specific form of religious belief of our leaders? How long until one of these leaders moves to do and end run around that phrase "shall make no laws respecting an establishment of religion"?

   I try VERY hard to respect the rights of others TO believe as they choose, but I also see de facto if not de jure encroachment on MY rights to not believe. George Bush has done many things to reduce and limit the separation of Church & State, and I fear that more forces are at work to extend this, even if the most religiously committed candidates are not elected.

It is foolish to do as Ed did and and just state that "there aren't any gods"...but it is even more foolish to state that there are, and that we MUST accept a particular set if we are to have any voice in shepherding this country thru its various troubles.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 07:28 PM

Mitt Romney says religion doesn't matter!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: bobad
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 07:53 PM

"There are damned few people more aggressive and hostile than evangelistic atheists!"

Don, I really don't know what you are referring to by the term "evangelistic atheist." An atheist, by my definition, is someone who does not even consider the question to which "GOD" is the answer. Perhaps a more accurate slur might be "evangelistic anti-theist."

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 08:20 PM

Those who have strong opinions on the matter often push 'straw man' definitions of words like 'atheist'.

Yes...there can be those who are evangelical about denying religion, and who can be just as obnoxious as those who knock on doors to sell their version OF religion...but often, 'atheist' merely means NOT accepting the many claims of others. It is silly to judge someone by a word they use without asking what THEY mean by it.

(Amos said about the same thing up above)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 08:44 PM

Question: Does anyone actually believe in God?

This is a tougher question than you might think.

I don't mean...

1) That belief in God is to be defended, on principle.

2) That belief in God is wholesome.

3) That God is a concept that causes good behaviour.

4) That there is some unifying force, some vague principal (such as the Tao) which one might call God.

5) That Gospel music is nice to hear and sing.

In my life I have met hundreds, possibly thousands of people. Many claim to believe in God, but, when pressed, admit that they don't really. It's a social necessity, a political necessity, a mean of community cohesiveness.

If you believe in an anthropomorphic being who intercedes in human affairs; answers prayer; created the universe; and deals with souls after they die....
...if you believe all of that, then you believe in God.

Less than that is mere pretence, with no more depth or importance than a Hallmark card.

cheers
JFW

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 09:11 PM

I was born again on halloween. I looked up and saw the Great Pumpkin. Believers get to eat that great pie in the sky.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,jim gillson
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 09:20 PM

Ok, guys. I just browsed my way to this thread. Here is what I think:
Nobody knows for sure if there is a God or not; nor do we know what
God is, if he or she or it does exist.

If we make the statement, "there is a God", or "there is no God", it
implies that we know our universe, the origins of and the development
of; and there is absolutely nothing left for us to research about our
universe, because we already know everything that happened. We don't.

The existence of God is a theory which people choose to believe, and
so is the the Big Bang theory. Why can't we all just believe what we
believe, not force anyone into our ways of thinking stating that
"our way is the right way"; and just get along? There shouldn't be
reason to argue the existence of God.

Quotation from this thread:
Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 07:28 PM

Mitt Romney says religion doesn't matter! (End Quotation)

True. Belief in God, and being part of a religion to have to be
synonymous to each other. You can believe in God, but have no religion. However, people see the flaws in organized religion, and always relate God to organized religion; which may mislead them into
thinking that God does not exist, because of the way religions portray God.
Organized religions are just stating what they think God is, what he
or she or it is about; but nobody knows what God actually is.

We all have our belief systems, but we shouldn't force ours on anyone
else. Well, that is pretty much it.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 09:27 PM

"'Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt. --Clarence Darrow'"

                     Probably the biggest religious sin of them all.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:28 PM

Evangelistic atheists.

bodad, if this thread wasn't started by an outright troll, then I'd say it was started by an evangelistic atheist. And our friend 282RA is most certainly an evangelistic atheist.

An evangelistic Christian is one who dedicates a good portion of his or her energies to trying to convert people to the Christian belief. An evangelistic atheist spends a good portion of his or her energies to trying to convert people to the belief that their is no God.

A fair number of scientists do believe in a God, but a large number do not believe in God. I don't know about those who believe in God (faith being what it is: belief without evidence), but I'm pretty sure that those who do not believe in God, if true scientists, would be willing to revise their opinions if they were presented with convincing evidence.

I don't think the same holds true for the evangelistic Christian or the evangelistic atheist. Both have faith that their belief is true. But neither knows.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:44 PM

What is being discussed, argued, debated, explored and/or ranted about in this thread?

Lots of common words that clearly hold different meanings for the various participants in this thread.



humanis vs ecological perspective, Substitute 'universal,' meaning all the universe (or universes) for ecological.

Consciousness - and follow the assorted links

Metaphor, especially the Discussion section, regarding meaning.

Meaning. See especially the Discussion of Meaning, and all subsections.

Definition and discussion of social institutions

Definitions of sacred

Religion

Joseph Campbell

Culture

definition of prejudice

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:49 AM

Jim: "The existence of God is a theory which people choose to believe, and so is the the Big Bang theory." They are not the same, Jim. Both are not theories. A theory is a temporary conclusion arrived at, based on evidence, with the proviso that, if the evidence is questioned or if new evidence arises, then the conclusion may change. That is the scientific method (or one definition of it, anyway). Belief in the existence of God is not, therefore, a theory. It is a belief system, a dogma, if you like, because no amount of new information will change the conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 08:34 AM

I really do wonder why God decided there should be a big bang anyway!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 09:57 AM

why, it's simple...a little bang wouldn't have scattered all that 'stuff' far enough, and the neighborhood would have been crowded.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 10:48 AM

>>Why is it that you are so lacking in any inclination to find common ground with someone after disagreeing about something, 282?<<

I only do that with you because we've gone through this before and nothing has changed. I'm not falling for it again. You and Don Firth have serious issues. This thread is an atheist thread and you two have attempted to turn it into "you atheists are so obnoxious" thread and then have the nerve to cry about how unreasonable and "evangelistic" I am. Btw, as I said before and which has been conveniently ignored, I DO NOT discuss religion with people in person. I simply do not.

We obviously have no common ground on this subject because in the end you will once again resort to your usual "I thought like you when I was young and stupid but I grew up too bad you didn't" garbage and I don't need to go through that again after thinking we had sorted that out. Obviously we haven't so let's just leave it at that.

>>All you're doing is telling me how awful I am. Am I supposed to be hurt, burst into tears, and run away and hide? ;-)<<

I don't care what you do. But I'm not going to go through this "hey we were saying the same thing after all" garbage because we aren't and the next thread someone popsts on this topic will prove it.

>>This is really just a sad performance on your part. Give up the grudge match. Try to find something we agree about instead.<<

We've gone through this before, Little Hawk. It's not going to work. Drop it. This was an atheist thread not a religious one so it is you and Firth who came here and made trouble not me.

>>And, hey, how did you find all those great quotes so quickly? Yowsa! Pretty cool. Where could you even find the time? ;-)<<

I'm on vacation.

>>Got a book of great quotes handy?<<

The Atheist's Bible. Picked up while Christmas shopping. Yes, I celebrate Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 11:34 AM

Why do you celibrate Christmas?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 11:41 AM

Wesley:

See Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos - PM
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:24 AM


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 11:55 AM

Amos - those are all good logical reasons I agree. For you. But I was wondering about 282RA's reasons to celebrate what most people consider a religious holiday. Why pick Christmas? Why not have a Menorah around the house?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 11:56 AM

If there IS a god who sees all & knows all, he'll be laughing so hard at this sort of 'debate', that he'll cause warps in the space-time continuum and make it rain on the Sahara for 40 days.

It ain't worth it, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:13 PM

What is being discussed, argued, debated, explored and/or ranted about in this thread?

As I said in the thread's early days, When we discuss "God"'s existence, are we trying to speak of our opinion of the objective reality, or of whatever God we create, ourselves?

All the "there's no God" ranting in the world won't make THAT any more objectively true than all the ranting that there is so, a God. It's all opinion, and how you choose to live your life based on that opinion.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:15 PM

I have no issues, 282RA. You seem to be the one with the issues.

I find both evangelisitic Christians and evangelistic atheists obnoxious. But within my experience, if you tell an evangelistic Christian loudly enough to f***-off, they usually say somthing like "I'll pray for you," and then they go away and leave you alone. Tell an evangelistic atheist to leave you alone and they get nasty and keep right on talking, follow you around, even into the bathroom, and generally accuse you of being mentally deficient--or accuse you of having "issues."

Have a nice day.

Don Firth

P. S. No, I take that back. I do have issues. I find both evangelistic Christians and evangelistic atheists a royal pain in the ass. Both of them are egotistical know-it-alls, and neither of them have anything more to go on than their faith. And they talk and talk and talk and talk and talk. . . .

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:30 PM

I got one question, but it will be prefaced with a statement.

God does or doesn't exist. If God does, then some of you are wrong. If God doesn't, then some of you are wrong. That said, here's the question:

Why does my reality have to be your reality?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:35 PM

"Why does my reality have to be your reality?"

EXACTLY - It doesn't. But most people would rather be "right" than "happy".

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:43 PM

We can't all be right - but we can all be wrong...

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: ranger1
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:48 PM

I have been reading this thread for quite a while. My thoughts about religion are this: everyone is entitled to their belief, atheist, Christian, secular humanist, Pagan, whatever. It's a personal thing, I don't mind anyone's beliefs as long as they don't try to push that belief onto me. Seems to me that's what LH, Peace, Wesley, Don Firth and Amos have been saying all along. Me, I have my beliefs, what they are isn't anyone else's business. I'm partnered with an atheist, he doesn't believe the same things I believe, but he's ok with me and my beliefs and I'm ok with him and his beliefs. One of the major tenets of most belief systems is tolerance, lots of religions don't practice it, but religion and faith/belief aren't the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 01:10 PM

Life is too short to be evangelical about anything. Except that right now - Collings makes the best production guitars on the planet.

I usually expect folkies to be pretty tolerant about most things. That's why I'm suprised at how testy some folks get when others talk about religion. It would be one thing if there were dozens of posts telling folks they were going straight to hell unless they repent and are "washed in the blood of the lamb". But I don't see that here. I'm fine with others want to believe - but I do object when some folks here want to insult others for their beliefs.

FYI - I wasn't responsable for the Spanish Inquisition - and I've given up burning athiests at the stake. But don't tempt me to break out the matches.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 01:15 PM

Geeze, Wesley, even 'special forces' are using Bic lighters . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 01:19 PM

HEATHENS - I will pray for them..........

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 01:24 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 01:26 PM

Those BIC lighters are the Devil's playthings. ANyone could see that plainly if they would only look.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 02:23 PM

Don Firth - it isn't faith on my side, it's a logical conclusion from data - a theory, if you will, like gravity. On the faith side is, however, just faith.

We celebrate midwinter, not $mas, but we do it AT $mas - because that is when people have time off.

This is a real question. I would ask it in much softer tones if it weren't driving me up a wall. Thank you in advance for answering the issue, not the tone, thanks.
I would like to know, as I have asked before, why should people be entitled to ignorance? I'm talking *only* about the believers who, when presented with a demonstrable reality which disproves their faith, deny reality rather than amending their faith - people who'd take their kids out of biology class for bible-thumping reasons, so all you rational theist don't get your knickers in a twist. But why should that be a right? I thought kids had a right to an education? What about adults? Why should I think that they are "entitled to their [counter to reality] beliefs" or respect beliefs which are demonstrably and already known to be false?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 02:34 PM

You've loaded your questions with enough phrases as to make it unanswerable - unless you believe exactly the same way as you do. As in "How long has it been since you beat your wife".

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 02:55 PM

Mrzzy, I expect some people behave in the manner you inquire about for the same reasons you pose a very subjective, value-laden question in which you appear to assume that your beliefs about 'right', your assumptions about 'ignorance', and your perceptions of 'reality,' are fact, instead of belief.

In short, people nearly always act like people.

Big surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:07 PM

I'm a "rational theist?" Since when have I been any kind of theist?

I'm with ranger 1 here. "I have my beliefs, what they are isn't anyone else's business."

I don't need anyone to tell me what to believe. I do have beliefs, but I'm open to new data, and that new data may very well prompt me to change those beliefs. I have heard the best arguments there are for the existence of God (Thomas Aquinas and a whole bunch of others) and I've heard the best arguments from the atheist viewpoint. I find that in both cases, the proponents start with their conclusion and then try to "reverse engineer" to prove their belief. That's bound to skew the "logic." The best "logical" arguments of all for the existence of God are Aquinas's, and even they have gaping holes in them. The most rigorously logical arguments I've encountered for the non-existence of God were put forth by Ayn Rand (yes, that Ayn Rand!). They, too, are full of holes.

IF there is a God, a Creator of the universe (consider how immense the universe is, and then consider the idea, put forth by recent cosmologists such as Michio Kaku, that this "universe" we inhabit is merely one of a huge number of "mulitverses," further complicated by multiple dimensions), then any Entity who could have created this is so far beyond our comprehension that for someone to say that they "know the mind of God" or are "doing God's will" borders on the ludicrous. I also maintain that those Creationists who believe that the universe is only 6000 years old, that there was a literal Adam and Eve, and all that goes with it—well, they worship a very puny God. Little better that a minor wizard.

But this is not to say that life does not have a spiritual dimension.

One area for consideration:    In that realm of multiverses, and multidimentsions that modern cosmologists and string-theorists are contemplating lies a possible explanation for the occasional manifestation of what might be called "paranormal phenomena" experienced by perfectly sane and reliable people. "Leakage" between dimensions? A rift in the membrane between our universe and the one next door?

Or the matter of an Afterlife? Perhaps, when we die, our awareness ("soul," if you insist) merely slips into another universe or dimension, just as physical as the one we currently inhabit. Or not.

Perhaps the God that people worship as if He were a benevolent father is actually a lab technician and we are merely a culture in a cosmic Petri dish. I wonder what the nature of the experiment might be? And how, do you suppose, are we doing?

Do I believe any of this? No. But I don't know that it isn't the case, either. The true nature of reality are best summed up by geneticist and evolutionary biologist J. B. S. Haldane, who said, "the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose."

Being totally, rigidly, and absolutely imbedded in a body of belief that brooks no new information and refuses to adapt when new information is presented is to close the door on true knowledge and growth. If one holds that, one is as good as dead already.

I have no trouble reconciling science (dedicated to revising and updating when new evidence is presented) and religion—provided it is the kind of religion that is open to Mystery and is not rigidly dogmatic and authoritarian.

There are things that we will never know. Get over it!

Holy crap!! I think I'm starting to talk like Little Hawk!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:11 PM

That is one profound conclusion, there, Miss Janie.

Mrrz, I would also offer the possibility that there are at least two -- perhaps many -- universes of discourse being confused here.

A scientist, totally aside from his professional activities, has to answer for himself whether or not there even EXISTS a spiritual universe of discourse. This is not an easy question, given (among other things) that the sphere is so subjective and that it has had so many strange items and attributes assigned to it.

The general undercurrent of most of these assertions from the whole spectrum of human spiritual assertions seems to be that it is not a realm contained by space-time as it is knwon and practiced on by scientists. That being liely, it is quite understandable that there may be things that function in such a domain that are completely, absolutely, demonstrably false in another.

In addition to the clear domain of matter and energy operating in space-time, which is the proper domain of sciences relating to phsyical universe phenomena, and a possible second domain of spiritual existence (and possibly interaction) outside (or co-imposed wholly or partially on or through) the ordinary space-time continuum, there is a third domain which is even more treacherous and hard to figger on than either of these.

This is the domain of human agreement, in which created ideas, opinions, and realities are erected based on persuasion free of proof, and usually quite free of heuristics or empirical measurement. All by itself this domain is a sticky, messy, volatile and irrational soup. When mixed up as it always is with domains 1 and 2, it gets even more so. All this adds up to some really disparate takes on what is or is not acceptable data, credible reality, or honorable methods of acquiring data and accepting or rejecting it.

That's my $,02 worth on the question. There may well be other domains in play I haven't mentioned or noticed.

Regards,


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:12 PM

Well said, Don.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:17 PM

I'm not talking about when I have opinions - I'm talking about demonstrable evidence, like DNA for evolution, geological evidence that the planet is more than 6k years old, and so on. No "belief" involved - these ARE facts, not opinions, and are not subject to disbelief - ***unless you are willing to deny reality*** to protect your beliefs.
I ask, why should I respect that denial? Where is the right of the faithful to be ignorant of facts?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:29 PM

But you assume that all people of faith think the same way. I belive in a higher power - but it's not the old man with a beard. And I ALSO believe in evolution and that the planet is older than 6,000 years old. It's not as cut and dried as you think.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:34 PM

If someone believes in G-d, does anyone think that a G-d capable of creating a universe or a multiplicity of universes would have any difficulty creating a universe that appeared to be billions of years old yet is only 6,000? People, if yer gonna use logic, use it.

Some of you have by recognizing that G-d is a belief. But then, some science is based on belief, too. Go figure . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:37 PM

". . . these ARE facts, not opinions, and are not subject to disbelief."

Until and unless proven otherwise. That is the nature of science.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:39 PM

Probably in the same location as your right to lump all of the 'faithful' into that last sentence.

You certainly have the right to do that, as far as I am concerned. But that is my value-laden judgement, and not an objective reality.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:46 PM

All triangles have 180 degrees (interior angles). That holds true until someone draws a triangle on a globe, and then it has 270 degrees. Then someone defines triangle as figure drawn on a flat surface, as if such a thing is at all possible in a universe that is curved. Even flat surfaces aren't flat.

We each believe in things because to do otherwise would force us all to live in split-level realities. How DO you describe the direction 'left' when you and the entity to whom you are giving the direction have nothing in common?

Science has its foibles, because scientists are humans, not gods. I would no more put science on a pedestal than I would religion. I trust neither anymore. They have each lied to protect their respective 'positions of authority'. Remember the "Rule of 48".

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:47 PM

For several days, I resisted the temptation to look into this discussion. I figured (correctly) that much of what would be written would be drearily predictable, and (incorrectly) that it would quickly run out of steam.

As time went on and the list of responses grew so exponentially, I finally yielded to temptation and started reading. It's taken a couple of days to work my way to the end; you all have been writing in new stuff just about as quickly as I can read!

A couple of observations:

On separation of church and state: Yes, no one agrees more readily than I that sectarian religious issues and disagreements have no place in secular public discourse. Most of us here, theists and atheists alike, seem to agree on this, and also seem to agree that there are way too many fundamentalists out there who threaten this boundary.

However, every citizen has the right and indeed the duty to follow whatever moral imperatives that he/she truly believes when acting in the public arena, as a voter or even a candidiate or officeholder. Whether said convictions are "religious" or not is beside the point.

Years ago, as a young adult, I joined with many others in various acts of civil disobedience in support of the moral convictions that racial discrimination must be eradicated, and that conscription into the kill-or-be-killed arena of warfare (especially, undeclared warfare) must be resisted. Many of us involved in these movements acted out of some kind of secular-humanist set of values, but just as many if not more were deeply involved in one or another religious tradition. How many names of ministers and priests, etc., do I need to drop to illustrate this point? Let's see, Martin Luther King, Dan Berrigan, Desmond Tutu...

Today's situation, where the most fervent exponents of moral resistance to civil authority generally espouse positions with which I do not necessarily agree, is somewhat problematic. I cannot be persuaded that abortion, however distateful, is morally equivalent to killing a human being who has been born ~ but I understand how it is that someone else might hold the opposite opinion, and I recognize exactly how and why such a person might feel morally obligated to act upon his/her convictions.

I simply expect that today's fundamentalist protesters observe the same rules about civil disobedience that were expected of us "new-leftists" 40-some-odd years ago: (1) only nonviolent civil disobedience carries any moral authority at all, and (2) every participant is expected to proudly and willingly accept whatever punishment the civil authorities decide to dole out.

In other words, to cite the most extreme example, holier-than-thou egomaniacs who murder doctors are nobody's moral superiors. Not only are they obviously guilty as sin, they set back their own causes.

If and when I observe people with whom I disagree to act upon their convictions in a responsible and civilized manner, I understand exactly where they're coming from and grant them my grudging admiration, whether or they've been the least bit successful in modifying my viewpoint or altering my own convictions.

On another related note:

I think that there is a more meaningful distinction between believers in a spiritual dimension ("theistic" or not) versus flat-out nihilists than there is between believers in God and non-believers. As pointed out above, Buddhism and Taoism are more accurately classified as "non-theistic philospohies" than as "religions," because even though they promote study of tne mysterious Unseen, they do not generally believe in petitional prayer or the possibility of miracles. For adherents of these spiritual systems, "prayer" or meditation is the activity of aligning oneself with spiritual truth, not a request for intervention on the part of a supernatural personality. Nothing more than a matter of "getting right with God," to rephrase it in familar western/Christian terms, and not really so alien a concept for believers.

I am equally comfortable feeling commonality with that type of "non-theist," with agnostics and "seekers," and with the vast majority of reasonable and charitable non-fundamental religionists. On the other hand, I find myself absolutely at odds with those who deny the existence of anything they can't see with their own eyes, just as irrevocably as with the smallest-minded, most puritanical, most fundamentalist literal interpreters of the Bible, or the Koran, or whatever hard-and-fast rulebook to which they've sworn allegiance.

Oh yeah, one more thing: to everything Little Hawk has written here, Amen. (And to much of what many others have said, too; I don't mean to slight anyone. But LH seems to be very much on the same wavelength as I am when it comnes to this kind of topic.)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 04:00 PM

Little Jenny: "God sorta looks like Santa on a cross."

There are major religions and then there are serious religions.
Judaism is major but not serious. After aits followers are only Jewish. Evaangelicals don't call themselves Christianish. Evangelicals are a serious religion but not a major religion, except for its use by the Republican party.
Islam is both major and serious. Islamic law can get you stoned but not in the good way. Cartoons and teddy bears can all conspire against you by Islamic law.
Buddism is major with a minor in seriousness, while Hinduism has a flavor for everything under the sun, especially sex.
Catholocism has a lock on both serious and major with its grand wahzzoo Pope and all its little chess pieces below.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 04:03 PM

Poppa
I prefer sex over sectarian or secular.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 06:08 PM

"Judaism is major but not serious."


                Why would we say Judaism is not serious? It's done a lot of serious damage to the Palastinians.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: frogprince
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 06:35 PM

From the post by Guest Ed that started this thread:
"God does not exist

If anyone can give me decent evidence as to why I'm wrong, I'd like to here it, along with something more substantial than "mysterious ways""

From 2R2RA:

"This was an atheist thread not a religious one so it is you and Firth who came here and made trouble not me."

Yes, obviously, this was a thread started by an atheist. Just as obviously, said atheist was opening himself to retorts by non-atheists. So some non-atheists threw in their $.02 worth. So that constitutes "making trouble" on an "atheist thread". That must be a valid point, because, after all, atheists are always rational...:}

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 06:46 PM

To take a massive subject like Judaism, rich with not only belief, but also colorful and deeply felt tradition, deep affinities for life, literature, scholarship and song and dismiss it as "not serious" is quite a feat -- but, I am sorry to add, a very meretricious one.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:00 PM

I've heard that one-sided shit before, Riginslinger. Islam has damaged the Israelis, too.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:13 PM

This was an atheist thread

Last I looked, Mudcat threads are still not moderated. Unless a named member got an OK for an Atheist Permathread-- which I would LOVE to see as well as a moderated Believers' Permathread-- threads like this one are still places where discussion can and will occur.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:16 PM

Peace - Sorry, I didn't mean to sound one-sided. I was just taking exception to the concept that Judaism wasn't to be taken seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:28 PM

Thanks for that, Riginslinger. I should know better than to post after a rough day. My apologies to you.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:33 PM

Opps looks like I lost my member status over my jew-ish joke about all major religions.

Oh well if it is merely a guest I must be so be it. We are all short term guests on this planet anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:34 PM

Taoism: Shit happens.
Confucianism: Confucius say, "Shit happens."
Buddhism: If shit happens, it isn't really shit.
Zen Buddhism: Shit is, and is not.
Zen Buddhism #2: What is the sound of shit happening?
Hinduism: This shit has happened before.
Islam: If shit happens, it is the will of Allah.
Islam #2: If shit happens, kill the person responsible.
Islam #3: If shit happens, blame Israel.
Catholicism: If shit happens, you deserve it.
Protestantism: Let shit happen to someone else.
Presbyterian: This shit was bound to happen.
Episcopalian: It's not so bad if shit happens, as long as you serve the right wine with it.
Methodist: It's not so bad if shit happens, as long as you serve grape juice with it.
Congregationalist: Shit that happens to one person is just as good as shit that happens to another.
Unitarian: Shit that happens to one person is just as bad as shit that happens to another.
Lutheran: If shit happens, don't talk about it.
Fundamentalism: If shit happens, you will go to hell, unless you are born again. (Amen!)
Fundamentalism #2: If shit happens to a televangelist, it's okay.
Fundamentalism #3: Shit must be born again.
Judaism: Why does this shit always happen to us?
Calvinism: Shit happens because you don't work.
Seventh Day Adventism: No shit shall happen on Saturday.
Creationism: God made all shit.
Secular Humanism: Shit evolves.
Christian Science: When shit happens, don't call a doctor - pray!
Christian Science #2: Shit happening is all in your mind.
Unitarianism: Come let us reason together about this shit.
Quakers: Let us not fight over this shit.
Utopianism: This shit does not stink.
Darwinism: This shit was once food.
Capitalism: That's MY shit.
Communism: It's everybody's shit.
Feminism: Men are shit.
Chauvinism: We may be shit, but you can't live without us...
Commercialism: Let's package this shit.
Impressionism: From a distance, shit looks like a garden.
Idolism: Let's bronze this shit.
Existentialism: Shit doesn't happen; shit IS.
Existentialism #2: What is shit, anyway?
Stoicism: This shit is good for me.
Hedonism: There is nothing like a good shit happening!
Mormonism: God sent us this shit.
Mormonism #2: This shit is going to happen again.
Wiccan: An it harm none, let shit happen.
Scientology: If shit happens, see "Dianetics", p.157.
Jehovah's Witnesses: >Knock< >Knock< Shit happens.
Jehovah's Witnesses #2: May we have a moment of your time to show you some of our shit?
Jehovah's Witnesses #3: Shit has been prophesied and is imminent; only the righteous shall survive its happening.
Moonies: Only really happy shit happens.
Hare Krishna: Shit happens, rama rama.
Rastafarianism: Let's smoke this shit!
Zoroastrianism: Shit happens half on the time.
Church of SubGenius: BoB shits.
Practical: Deal with shit one day at a time.
Agnostic: Shit might have happened; then again, maybe not.
Agnostic #2: Did someone shit?
Agnostic #3: What is this shit?
Satanism: SNEPPAH TIHS.
Atheism: What shit?
Atheism #2: I can't believe this shit!
Nihilism: No shit.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:40 PM

Et tu Amos ?
I must have caught you at a very humorless hour.
Being raised in the Jewish culture but without all the dietary and ceremonial traditions, I am more of what the goyim would call a Mel Brooks Jew.


Amos "To take a massive subject like Judaism, rich with not only belief, but also colorful and deeply felt tradition, deep affinities for life, literature, scholarship and song and dismiss it as "not serious" is quite a feat -- but, I am sorry to add, a very meretricious one"

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,formerly donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:41 PM

Well shit

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:44 PM

Peace

But then, some science is based on belief, too.

Really? Examples please.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:44 PM

OK go ahead , call Al Sharpton, tell CNN what I said, get the anti defamation league to picket me.

Why does this shit always happen to me?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,don
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:47 PM

why does this appear on my reply to thread page?

Adolf Hitler 1938
Get Adolf Hitler 1938 Ringtone? 100% Complimentary – Download Now!
Music-Bonus.com/Adolf-Hitler-1938Adolf Hitler 1938
Want Adolf Hitler 1938 Ringtone? 100% Complimentary - Get It Here!

__________________________________

You guys aren't fuckin funny anymore.
adieu

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:49 PM

"Peace

But then, some science is based on belief, too.

Really? Examples please."

As I said earlier, remeber the Rule of 48.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:52 PM

Ignostic: Without a coherent definition of shit it cannot be meaningfully discussed.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 08:04 PM

OK you guys canceled my cookie and removed my posts explaining Jew-ish humor. Lighten up, its Hannakah!

Nothing is so sacred that we can laugh together.

And ringslinger my apolgies if believed that the joke about being Jew-ish was misinterpreted. Besides I believe Mel Brooks told it first.

Amos, I was raised in the Jewish culture and find everything regarding scholorship, reasoning and humor to be most profound in my life.
The rest of it however like dietary restrictions et cetera... "eh"

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 08:11 PM

I must admit that I hadn't come across the Rule of 48 before and haven't been able to find out much about it since but it seems to me to be a good example of how science works. The available evidence said there were 48 human chromosomes. Nobody challenged this for a while until someone came up with better evidence which people then accepted.

If it had been religion, there would have been a schism and the 48ers and 46ers would have been burning each other as heretics ever since.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 08:26 PM

http://donuelhakman.angelfire.com/mudcatreply.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 08:35 PM

Sorry I snapped there, Donuel. Such tsuris you should bnever have!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 08:40 PM

To TheSnail: that is a great post.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 08:45 PM

One thing. Nobody questioned it for over a decade.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 08:57 PM

42
    --Deep Thought

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 09:25 PM

"I believe Mel Brooks told it first."

               I've always had trouble with Jewish humor.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 09:34 PM

Really! this Hitler ad is still on my mudcat page http://donuelhakman.angelfire.com/mudcatreply.jpg
Is it on yours too?

What assinine schmuck would allow mudcat to advertise Hitler for profit?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 09:37 PM

this is what I got when I clicked it.

a href="http://www.music-bonus.com/pp.jsp?a=302&ppc=google&k=adolf+hitler+1938&p=adolf+hitler+1938+ringtone">http://www.music-bonus.com/pp.jsp?a=302&ppc=google&k=adolf+hitler+1938&p=adolf+hitler+1938+ringtone

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 09:54 PM

I didn't see it before you posted about it. Now it's there.
wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz wizard of oz
Maybe Google Ads got infiltrated.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 10:23 PM

Comes as quite a shock to me that Washington might do anything illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 12:35 AM

It comes up blank for me. Is that the point?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 01:27 AM

Riginslinger, your statement made earlier in this thread that religion is the root of all evil has stayed with me, possibly because you succinctly and clearly state a belief that many others posting here have espoused with less clarity and more rancor.

I disagree.

Most human cultures have concepts of 'good' and 'evil'. some of those concepts are fairly universal among humankind, but each culture has it's own variations and nuances. There are also many instances in which the concepts of good and evil between different cultures are very different, even oppositional. Additionally, sets of values will contain values that can and do conflict internally. Different people with similar values will weigh those values differently, depending on circumstance, life experience, personality, etc.

From a rational and logical perspective, notions of good and evil are human constructs. It follows that humans are the root of all that humans label evil, and humans are also the root of all that humans label good.

Religion, regardless of the religion, is a social institution that fulfills a number of functions to preserve a culture. Humans have evolved to be a socially interdependent species, and this gets played out in all sorts of ways. Culture being one of them.

Viewed from a purely rational and logical perspective, humans are simply another species. We are animals.   Because we are one of those socially interdependent species, we form packs - street gangs, extended families, tribes, societies, cultures - you get my drift. And like many other species, we form pecking orders, territories, defend our territory, run-off and/or kill off rival packs, eat our young.   

Again, from a purely logical, rational perspective, all of these human constructs and social institutions, including values and notions of good and evil, have evolved, the same as for any other animal, as means of increasing the odds of survival of the individual, a particular gene pool, the colony, or the species.

When the red ants invade the colony of the black ants, we don't label the red ants evil. When the lion brothers attack a pride, kill the males and all the young progeny of those males, we don't call them evil. When honey bees dance their ritual dances conveying information about abundance and direction of pollen and nectar sources, we don't label them ignorant. When the worker bees feed several larva the royal jelly to insure the production of several queens, and those queens emerge and battle to the death, we don't call the surviving queen wicked,or the worker bees manipulative.

We tend to say-that's different, those species don't have the level of consciousness and awareness that we do. They don't know about good and evil, so they can't be accountable. Well, from a purely logical, rational, reality based perspective, we don't 'know emperically about good and evil. Those are value judgments, beliefs, generally more functional than not in terms of the survival of the individual, the tribe, and/or the species. How the hell do we know anything at all about the nature of the consciousness of another species.   We don't know much about the nature of consciousness of our own species. I suggest there is not enough information available at the present time to make any assumptions about the consciousness of anything that we at present consider sentient.

The negative things that some people here tend to attribute to 'religion', are not attributes of religion. They are attributes of people, of large social units, of methods and means of cultural preservation (which is one function of all social institutions, of well known and researched attributes of individuals and/or groups of any number of species.



Not particularly related to the above, but another link related to things that seem to be inherent in the human psyche. On metaphysics

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 04:32 AM

Much of what we believe in our insignificant lives is based upon our own particular pattern of learning and understanding. There are many things which can be proved or disproved using so called 'understood methods' but even those may not be accurate.
For instance, the Phlogiston theory of the 17thc held that phlogiston was a substance which was colourless, odourless, invisible....but was present in imflammable items....so that when the item was burnt, the phlogiston disappeared...leaving the true material......apparently it could be proved by combustion of various materials.    So, many people believed it until it was refuted. Now we have different views on combustion but who is to say they are right now?.
We have all developed some sort of belief (or unbelief) pattern with regard to religion and/or Christianity and we try to live out those patterns...believing that it is right to do so. When we do that, we also try to do what is expected of us which may also require us to evangelise. Which of us can say that is right or wrong without understanding where any evangelist is coming from?
Some will remember that I am a born again Christian...as such I am expected, as a disciple of Jesus, to spread the truth of the Gospels, just as disciples did soon after Jesus death. I try not to force it on to people but even when treated gently, some people are so against 'beliefs' of any sort, they feel they are being forced to hear something they don't want to.
Many people I meet with regularly, know that I am likely to talk about my beliefs and some suffer it, some humour me and many just accept me for who I am and what I believe. There are very few who reject me as a person. Those who do are treated with the same love, compassion, respect as anyone else and are entitled to their own views.
What really saddens me is to see people of integrity on here who battle against each other over such issues when provoked by someone who wants them to do just that. What saddens me more is that some feel that they have to put down the other person rather than the views of that person.

Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 07:38 AM

Peace

As I said earlier, remember the Rule of 48.

One thing. Nobody questioned it for over a decade.

OK, they screwed up. Scientists are only human after all. There have been worse cockups than that. Look at Piltdown Man. That lasted forty years.

Until genetics really took off after the 1953 publication of the structure of DNA, it probably didn't matter very much anyway. I think it would have been long forgotten if Michael Crichton hadn't used it to have a go at scientists.

Getting something wrong and being insufficiently critical of someone else's published results is very different from saying "some science is based on belief".

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 09:34 AM

Janie - You're right! When red ants go out to annihilate black ants we don't call it evil. But when Europeans go out to annihilate Africans we call it racism, or sometimes ethnic cleansing--most people would call that evil. But maybe it's not, maybe it's just normal primordial behaviour being acted out on a modern stage.

                   Intellectually, though, I think most people would see it as evil, and would refrain from doing it. But if you can introduce the concept of goD, and get people to annihilate the enemy in the name of goD, then you're onto something. You could do it totally for economic gain, even, as is often the case. All you have to do is say you're doing it in the name of goD, and that makes everything wonderful.

                   You can even go one step farther. Like in Sudan, for instance, you can get the Christians and the Islamists to go after each other in the name of goD, and while they're distracted, the Chinsese government, Exxon-Mobile and British Pertroleum can happily slip in and make off with the oil.

                   I can't think of a war going on on the face of the planet that isn't being conducted without a religious component. Frankly, I don't think you can have war without religion.
Ants can, but I don't think people can, they've evolved too far.

                   I think religion is evil all right. It's the most evil thing ever devised by man. It is, in fact, the root of all evil.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:26 AM

Janie raises some very interesting issues.

I suppose the differentiation has to be made between the individual spiritual horizon, whatever that may consist of, and the cultural accumulation of dramatizations, irrational practices and authoritarian data which comprise the knowledge body of many religions. Because all the evil that Riginslinger cites comes not from individual spiritual experience but from man's endless appetite to control others.

I am not sure about this extension of pure objectivity ending up classifying man solely as a herd-forming animal. At least, I think the differences in degree and kind of creativity are so great between our species and that of any other primates, that it points to some major qualitative distinction. I understand it as an intellectual exercise, of course, but I think it has to set aside too many points of difference to be compelling as an approach to understanding.

But in any case, the impact of Riginslinger's class of "evil" cannot be denied, even if the provenance of it is perhaps less spiritual events than a grand confidence scam using core human impulses like love and spirituality of some sort to make attractive what is essentially a large-scale exercise in human aberration and derangement.

The evil lies not in the inherent impulses behind religions, but in the resorting to deny the individual, suppress and channel his perception, enforce agreements, deny and enforce his natural ability to communicate, and trample on his natural affinities by forcing the individual to mold his feelings around arbitrary, false, overblown or destructive ralities (see Old Testament for some examples). When important information is shoved down your throat your thinking gets corkscrewed into totally unpredictable paths of irrational behavior.

Mind you, religion is not the only arena in which this sort of thing happens. Advertising has a similarly deadly impact, only slightly less formal in its tacit and corrosive beliefs.

Advertising itself is of course, as any business person knows, not an evil thing. But enforcing desires for objects and thereby enforcing beliefs about what is important to one that have no bearing on his or her native ability to reason is really wicked, whether done by priests or pitchmen.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:31 AM

Ringslinger ..

"Ants can, but I don't think people can, they've evolved too far."
people/humans haven't evolved far enough.

"I think religion is evil all right. It's the most evil thing ever devised by man. It is, in fact, the root of all evil."
I totaly agree with that statement.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bee
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:48 AM

Regarding the mistake in counting human chromosomes, the error and its later correction had mostly to do with the advances made in microscope technology. Somewhere recently I saw pictures of what the earlier counter had to work with, and it's amazing he came as close as he did with such blurry resolution. Later images, when the count was corrected, are much, much clearer.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 11:08 AM

Well, I wish Rig and biLL would offer a definition of what they are referring to when they use the word "religion" in the above statements.

Are you talking about particular branches or organizations? Any organized codification of metaphysical experience or nature? Any assertion about such nature? Individual experiences? Philosophical treatises?

What exactly do you mean is this "root".

I am not against the sentiment, but I would hate to let the thinking go unclarified.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 11:09 AM

The negative things that some people here tend to attribute to 'religion', are not attributes of religion. They are attributes of people, of large social units, of methods and means of cultural preservation (which is one function of all social institutions, of well known and researched attributes of individuals and/or groups of any number of species.

I've posted often about the confusion in present-day culture between "religion" as advertised by the Rigid Religious Right, which is not religion but social control. (Rev. Gary Davis sang about TRUE religion.) I've posted about the way the RRR grab most of the press on religious matters and how the real, daily faith lived by the majority of believers is a very different thing from the RRR press campaign.

These posts mostly have been ignored. They're not as much fun as being mad at the RRR, nevermind that it means being mad at all religion too! So I guess it should not surprise me that people duped by the current RRR into thinking that it's the major reality of religious life could miss the fact that a similar phenomenon has gone on in the past. But the reality is that in the same periods of time so many anti-religionist folk rant wbout (for the bad things that were done in that time), there was quite positive religious life going on at the very same time and within the very same denominations that did so much wrong.

And this is the realtiy that Hardi and I know now. Sure, the Episcopal Church is getting lots of bad press for the divisions we're struggling with while we try to find a godly way around the places where we're stuck and disunified. But it has so little to do with the vitality and positivity of parish life as we know it not only in our own parish, but as we know it across this Diocese and others. And it makes us sad that so many people are so caught up in the bad news that they never see or hear or experience the good news.

Remember resonating to the dialog in "Pretty Woman" where Julia Robert's hooker-character explains that it's easier to believe the bad things? But our culture still lacks the ability to turn its attention away from the bad news- to think about the hope the good news represents.

That's what Hardi and I fell asleep discussing last night-- the hope of the good news. One thought I had before I dropped off was about the umpteenth suicide-shooter (at Von Maur's this time), from the evening's news-- another young man caught on videiotape in his black coat, dampened affect, raising a gun. "These shooters-- tragically devoid of a belief system that gave them hope," I thought. Then I wondered, "How many fundies, as bad as they are, shoot up malls?"

Where am I going with this. Where I am going with this is that whether the objective realities bear out a life of faith or not, there is something good about having a positive belief system. People have asked me what I'm doing to correct our denominations' wrongs, as if I answer to them; they have no idea that I may very well be doing quite a bit of peace work and just don't care to talk about it here.

More pertinently to this discussion, they also don't tell me what THEY are doing to prevent these hopeless shootings, or how their lack of belief helps kids have hope and stay off that videotape..... so I'm curious how many Mudcatters who ARE helping with THAT social issue DO HAVE a belief system of some kind that involves faith of some kind.


Hardi also reminded me what one of his aged seminary professors used to say when asked about scientific proof of God. He likened it to proving "love:" a couple comes in to get married. Can they prove, scientifically, that they have the kind of love that will sustain a long and difficult relationship in today's world? No... not with today's science at least; but is it there?

MAYBE it is.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 11:16 AM

Well, well said, Suze.

It is not just Piskies, of course, and the dramatization goes on back through time to ancient African rites used to justify killing or cannibalism. Maybe further, even.

But the problem is never religion itself but what individuals do with it. There's plenty of wild-ass assertions in print out there, but which ones you take on board are an individual choice. And even if you take none, the real litmus test is what gets done between one hooming an' annuver.

I don't think religion between consenting primates is the problem that Rig is pointing to, though.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 11:19 AM

I don't think religion between consenting primates is the problem that Rig is pointing to, though.

If anyone thought I was responding to RS just because he'd posted before I did, I wasn't-- I don't read his posts anymore.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 11:20 AM

Oh, Gawd ferbid you should be misunderstood.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Alice
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 11:30 AM

People create religions. Attributes of religions are attributed to the people who create them.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: bobad
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 11:37 AM

"Bad Religion (Theme Song)"

See my body, it's nothing to get hung about.
I'm nobody except genetic runaround.
Spiritual era's gone, it ain't comin' back.
Bad Religion, a copout, that is all that's left
Hey Mr. Mime, stop wasting my time,
With your factory precision.
Factory precision is your
Bad Religion, regurgitate
Indecision, it's not too late.
Bad Religion, Bad Religion.
Ay!
Don't you know the place you live's a piece of shit?
Don't you know blind faith through lies won't conquer it
Don't you know responsibility is ours?
I don't care a think about eternal fires.
Listen this time, it's more than a rhyme,
It's your indecision.
Your indecision is your
Bad Religion, regurgitate
Indecision, it's not too late.
Bad Religion, regurgitate
Indecision, it's not too late.
Bad Religion, Bad Religion,
Bad Religion.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Tweed
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 12:26 PM

I was gonna stay clear, but....

Religion's okay initially, but then humans start trying to interpret it and then it's no longer so good anymore. I ain't sure we are ready for religion yet. Just seems like a lotta people get hurt, killed or go crazy over it to me.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 12:28 PM

>>Why do you celibrate Christmas?<<

Because only a sour brooding idiot sits at home and refuses to be with his family on a special day. I could care less what Christmas is supposed to commemorate, I love my family and will get together with them any day they want to--Christmas, Thanksgiving, Ramadan, Chinese New Year or no particularly special day at all. Any day to spend with family is a special enough day.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 01:09 PM

Hi Susan,

Responding to what you say, I am mostly in agreement.

"Where am I going with this. Where I am going with this is that whether the objective realities bear out a life of faith or not, there is something good about having a positive belief system."

I do agree that a positive belief system is good and added to that, I think it doesn't
always require a religious belief system. I think religious and non-religious people
can agree to amenably disagree on what constitutes this belief system. I also agree
that the destructive tendency to tear down what seems to be antithetical to someone's view of reason does no good. I see religious people doing constructive things and in my own view, I interpret that as people just having a good sense of social values regardless of their belief system. I don't see the point of railing against something that I may not agree with. The only time I see religion as destructive is when it becomes a power move on the part of some to exert or exhort their views on others. Many religious people who I admire do not do this. Religion remains a personal experience for them and I am not going to question that. I do not presume to have a knowledge of their personal experience. I can respect them as people and not invade their private codes of belief.


" People have asked me what I'm doing to correct our denominations' wrongs, as if I answer to them; they have no idea that I may very well be doing quite a bit of peace work and just don't care to talk about it here."

It's not necessary for you to feel obligated to discuss anything about your private beliefs.
The US Constitution protects your right of privacy in these matters. I think there are communities of people regardless of their views of religion that are intensely interested in working for peace. We all do it in different ways. We all have different means to address this important issue.

One thing for sure, if we fight about such stuff as belief, we are not promoting peace but an argument that goes nowhere. I have become open minded enough now to respect that people have different experiences and interpretations of life.

I regret that I have made you uncomfortable and wanted to express my appreciation for
what you do musically. I have visited your website and admire the pulling together of the people to make music. This is one of the most important things we as artists can do
to build a lasting world peace.


"More pertinently to this discussion, they also don't tell me what THEY are doing to prevent these hopeless shootings, or how their lack of belief helps kids have hope and stay off that videotape..... so I'm curious how many Mudcatters who ARE helping with THAT social issue DO HAVE a belief system of some kind that involves faith of some kind."

I think that there are many of us who do different things to prevent the violence and irrationality that we see in the world. I think that "belief" in itself is a semantic question and that what we believe is not narrowly relegated to a Christian God. Einstein espoused Spinoza's God which he claimed was not a personal God, but a confluence of elements of the universe that science revealed as kind of "holy". His amazement at the expanse of the universe and it's development through evolved time was his "miracle".


"Hardi also reminded me what one of his aged seminary professors used to say when asked about scientific proof of God. He likened it to proving "love:" a couple comes in to get married. Can they prove, scientifically, that they have the kind of love that will sustain a long and difficult relationship in today's world? No... not with today's science at least; but is it there?"

Here, I think that science can play an important role in the analysis of what a sustained
relationship contains. Psychology is a fledgling science though not perfect as no science can ever be. There are fundamental questions as to what constitutes a loving relationship that is sustainable that can be answered by some scientific perception.

Dawkins discusses NOMA which was developed by the prominent scientist, Stephen J.Gould who suggest that (N.O.M.A.) No Overlapping Magesterium prevents science from
measuring religious systems of belief. I agree with Dawkins that a thorough scientific
investigation of religion is in the best interest of science and theology. Through this,
we may arrive at a useful moral compass to serve humanity.

Dawkins is important in my view because he is a true humanitarian. He doesn't attack people but listens to whatever they say respectfully. His discussions with eminent theologians are fine dialogues and a good model for those of us with different views to reach a common denominator of understanding.

Keep up the good work, Susan. Wish I could sit in on one of your "slow jams".

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 01:30 PM

>>But I was wondering about 282RA's reasons to celebrate what most people consider a religious holiday. Why pick Christmas? Why not have a Menorah around the house?<<

If my family wants to get together on Chanuka--fine. I'll be there.

And I DO have a menorah in my house. I also have several Qurans. I English bibles (some dating back to the 17th century), two Tanakhs, a Septuagint, a Greek NT, several Buddhist sutras, the Tao Te Ching, the Upanishads, the Nag Hammadi Library, the Tibetan and Egyptian Books of the Dead, several version of the Apocrypha, a scroll of the Book of Esther, a Buddhist scroll, several decks of tarot cards, a work in Sanskrit that I don't even know what it is but I bought it, the Pistis Sophia, a good dozen books of Freemasonry and astrology, as well as books by Burton Mack, G.A. Wells, Gerald Massey, Albert Churchward, John Shelby Spong, Nicholas Goodricke-Clarke, Daniel Dennett, John M.E. McTaggart, Thomas Paine. I have books on druidry, Greek mythology, the Book of Shadows, the Writings of Pliny, Lucian, Virgil, Homer, Josephus, the Apostolic writings, etc. And the great Alvin Boyd Kuhn--the one writer I admire than any other.

I have the Dancing Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva statue and a Buddhist tryptich on a shelf and a Celtic cross on the wall that can be seen as soon as you walk through the door.

I have recordings of Tibetan Buddhist chants, Islamic calls to prayer, old Christian hymns put out on the Yazoo label, religous music from Persia, India and Africa. I like avant-garde music because it's meditative. I adore movies as 2001, The Red Violin, Black Orpheus and others because I see an underlying message in them expresses my own private views aboutthe universe.

I am NOT the originator of this thread (at least two people think I am), I am not a materialist, I have a DEEPLY spiritual view that I do not share with anybody because it's nobody's business but mine, atheists are absolutely correct as far as their condemnation of organized religion goes, nor was I an atheist as a teen I became one in 90s when I was already in my mid-30s. I do not "evangelize" anybody and I have done nothing to deserve that accusation on this thread. My supplying quotes of past atheists (some of whom were actually quite religious as Kepler) was meant SOLELY for Little Hawk and his arrogant assertion that atheists are ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION immature little snots who never grew beryond their teen years (and then denies he ever said it).

So please STOP trying to paint me as materialist who spits on people who believe in god or an afterlife or a particular religion. I've made clear several times now that I have nothing against Christians who mind their own business. I have several friends that are promise keepers and another who runs a church founded by his late father. And I would appreciate it if fanatical Christians would stop pushing for intervention in the Middle East where they are turning Islam into a murderous, fanatical guerilla outfit that will never progress as long as these Christians continue to make their lives miserable with their goddamn meddling in other people's affairs. And if you are a Christian who believes in what we're doing over there then you ARE who I am referring to--so get over yourselves. If you're not then I wasn't talking about you so shut up.

And this isn't just addressed to Wesley, it's addressed to all of you.

Nows that's it. I'm done with you.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 01:32 PM

Frank,

An admirable post.

I think the question of science applied to religious matters is a compelling one. I wrote upthread about the universes of discourse. If the universe of endless imagination, inspiration, aesthetic joy and live communication which is the apparently unbounded see of thought itself is to ever be addressed by science, it is going to have to find a methodology that can deal with the things that are substantive to thought, rather than the things which are substantive to matter. This duality is not going to go away, and the failure to address it except in rare instances like Dr. Larry Dossey, and perhaps Elizabeth Kubler-Ross,and a few others, is the hanging point of such a program. I do not believe there is room in such an effort for the idée fixée that thought must be born from the neurochemical. Rather it will have to address the dynamics of thought and perception in terms of the genuine seat of communication itself, experientially, and th eintimate matrix of created considerations that defines our inner lives.

That's not going to be simple, or easy, for many reasons, but it could be a lifetime's worth of fun.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 02:33 PM

'I think it would have been long forgotten if Michael Crichton hadn't used it to have a go at scientists.'

Maybe. But in the biology book I learned from, and the teacher at that time, the text (in the arly 1960s) used that info.

However, granted when you said that science tends to correct its mistakes once they find them. But I still don't trust either religions or science. Too many vested interests--in both.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 02:54 PM

Amos, I agree that there is no easy formula to address this issue, the role of religion in science and that of science in religion. The question I have is does this mean that thought must be exclusive from matter? This wanders into the wispy area of metaphysics that concern philosophers. I think that the duality is subject to furthur investigation to determine whether this is paradoxical or a part of the same thing.

Peace, science is not to be trusted and as a result, scientists who are experts in their field don't trust it but continuously question its validations. It's always relative because as new information unfolds, it changes and adapts very much like the human condition.

I can see a case for religion adapting and changing also in a relativistic state as new ethical and moral considerations are brought to the fore. An example would be how the institutions of religion have changed to embrace new social concerns such as on the position of slavery, women's rights, civil rights, peace activism and the acceptance of new ideas out of the box.

It's hard to imagine the justification of slavery through religion today. As women ascend the pulpit, these sexual-based role identities have changed as well. Today's views do not represent "your father's religion (Oldsmobile). Some have taken the Sermon on the Mount seriously and question whether war is a viable solution to any problem.

I still think that this dialogue must eschew anger and reaction. Personal defensiveness
muddies the waters. I also think that this is a worthwhile topic of discussion.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 03:36 PM

Janie got me thinking about the concept of good and evil.
There is probably a name for the philosophy that Good and evil do not exist from the viewpoint of a higher perspective.

A perspective that is near cosmological in existence in which the affairs of man at our current level of influence on the universe is neglible at best.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 03:54 PM

Wesley. no, that's just it, I specifically am NOT talking to the thinking deist, remember?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 04:00 PM

Donuel:
They say, think globally, act locally.

But if you start thinking cosmologically, you'll probably going to stop acting at all!

After all, with an infinite number of galaxies, and an infinite number of planets similar to earth, and maybe parallel dimensions where every time we act, another version of ourselves acts differently....

...aghhh! Why did I start thinking this way. Aghhh! I can't move!!! Help!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 04:08 PM

"religion, the root of all evil"

well, if religion isn't, it is pretty well parallel to whatever is the 'root' of all evil ... which to me is the EGO.

Can anyone provide convincing proof that religion is not 'one of' the main roots of all evil?

My mother was the only person who one could say was a firm athiest. She also was one of the most true humane, giving, peaceful people I have ever known. Many years later, long after her passing have I finally reached the point were I understand what she was all about.

I should also reinstate, it's not all about, what is right, or what is wrong.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 04:33 PM

biLL:

What constitutes "religion" in your post just above?

I must assume you mean grous coming together in pursuit of somethign they see as divine or spiritual.

Canyou be a bit more precise about what it is you think generates evil? Egos, now, are surely a deep pat of lots of aberration, but since even good people have them, they cannot themselves be the inherent fount of evil. So what is that generates ego-driven evil?

I would suggest it less having an ego than denying the egos of others -- that is, the blocking of compassion. Human affinity is a powerful force for the good, such that its denial is almost sure to generate harm of some kind.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 04:49 PM

People who worship at the altar of science are not much different from people who worship at the altars of religions. While science did give us penicillin (etc), it also gave us agent orange, DDT, thalidomide, VX gas (etc). We will no doubt go back and forth with "But people put those things to bad use, NOT science." Yeah, right. The President of the United States has science advisors. They KNOW what the bad stuff can do. Nope, folks, I ain't buying into the party line on this one. I still don't trust vested interests whether they be in science OR religion. Incidentally, there are few good purposes VX gas can be put to.

"VX gas was developed in the Porton Down Chemical Weapons Research Centre, Wiltshire, England in 1952 and its devastating effects were tested. The British traded the technology of VX with the United States of America for information on thermonuclear weapons."

Thermonuclear weapons info. Huh. Good trade. A new way to eradicate the common cold. And is religion much better? Not really. But then all that has nothing to do with G-d or stuff like that. Does it!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 04:54 PM

Thanks for your post, Frank.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 05:02 PM

Amos:

Your assumption is correct pertaining to 'groups coming together in pursuit as something they see as divine or spiritual ... or even with an individual's pursuit as having the absolute true meaning of divinity or spirituality. This is the 'me' part of religion, the EGO. This can be seen as the only me (or my 'group') as having the Right way, all others are going the Wrong way. I am giving and passionate to others because it makes me (my EGO) feel righteous.

Human affinity is a powerful force for the good ... most certainly I cannot disagree ... but it must not be done to please the collective 'me'(EGO).

biLL



biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 05:18 PM

I tend not to take a Manichean view of Evil and Good. I think we as a species are all too vulnerable in making awful mistakes. I would rather think in terms of sociopathy or psychopathology which ultimately doesn't work for society. The labels of "good" and "evil" have been co-opted by some for their personal agendas. For example, I'm sure that Falwell and Robertson have branded some folks as "evil" whether they merit this judgement or not.
I'm bothered by the philosophy of authoritarianism which promulgates "an eye for an eye"
and not a true picture of justice. In this context, "good" and "evil" are weapons in the hands of those who would take us to war.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 05:30 PM

Part of the difficulty--as some have pointed out--is that there are good people who are religious (involved in organized religion (I offer Susan as an example, and she'll know many more)) and good people who are involved in science. However, both institutions can be and have been at various times manipulated for political agendas, national aspirations, pursuits of power, economic interest/gain, and in the process they have euphemistically sold their souls to the highest bidders, and in doing so sold our souls as part of the deals.

I think it was Asimov who stated the three laws of robotics. The laws seemed to protect people. It was unlikely that Asimov developed those laws because of his religious beliefs--he had none to speak of. But he was aware of the religious tracts of Judaism and Christianity because he did do a "Guide to the Bible" (both OT and NT). Maybe he was simply altruistic. Who knows? But if we can accept that a purpose of human effort whether in religion or science is really an effort to more completely understand humanity and more ably help humans ease suffering and eradicate disease, then why DO we develop/do bad stuff--whether in the name of science or the name of religion?

Just asking questions here, folks.

Hope y'all have a great day.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 05:42 PM

I tend to think any purpose is basically "goodish" that seeks to enhance the well-being of some life-related vector. Making a better roofing-shingle, or chairing the local PTA in an effort to raise literacy rates, or building a stronger family or promulgating higher standards of personal spiritual strength or individual ethics, or protecting animals from extinction -- the common denominator is an effort to achieve more life along one or another avenue. The problem of course arises when the vector of good ends up doing more harm to other efforts or other entities. We generally view death as the omega of badness, and life as the general bearing of goodness, but it gets pretty damn complexified in the details, huh?

There's no objective standard for this, although real metrics sometimes help. The only seat of ultimate judgement is the individual sense of right living and an understanding of consequences. "Unintended consequences" is a major provider of apparent evil efffects stemming from "good" impulses. So stupidity and lack f learning about the world has a major part to play in it too.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 05:45 PM

You paraphrased Forrest Gump: SHIT HAPPENS.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 06:06 PM

Yeah, but I made it sound more truthy.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 06:07 PM

LOLOL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 07:19 PM

""How many fundies, as bad as they are, shoot up malls?"

I really don't know. But some 'fundies' have crashed hijacked airliners into office towers.

Fundies BTW, come in all religious denominations.

There are a lot of people busting their butts out there for humanity, charity and the benefit of mankind who are not doing it out of religious faith. Even Mother Theresa questioned her 'faith' ... but this should not take away from her sainthood in humanity.

All in all ... the true 'goodness' of humans is not (IMHO) fueled by collective religious beliefs.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 07:54 PM

""How many fundies, as bad as they are, shoot up malls?"

I really don't know. But some 'fundies' have crashed hijacked airliners into office towers.

Fundies BTW, come in all religious denominations.


Of course that's true, but that part of my post was about the flat-affect hopelessness of our youth-- cold violence; it was not about hot violence-- wrong action fueled by fervor. It was not offered as a balance-sheet entry on which is more violent, but as an observation that a lack of beliefs seems to be as damaging as an excess of any stripe.

But my post also was about hope, and I kinda think the violence you cite is not about hope.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 08:18 PM

My personal view is that being given a world-view in which a huge external Entity is Responsible for Creation, and to whom Everyone Should Pray even if No Answers Appear is a good way to induce apathy and hopelessness into someone. I know that is not supposed to be the message, and that dissonance is one of the problems I have with the iconography and cosmology Being doomed to unforgiven sinner-hood unless and until one accepts an invisible, non=responsive siupport agent is kind of enough to twist anyone's mind around a phone pole, IMHO. Fortunately many Christians do not focus heavily on the ideological unpalatabiliies and concentrate on the undying virtues of compassion and help.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 08:36 PM

Just when I thought this thread had totally deteriorated into a slagging and spitting session, it turned back into(largely) a very thoughtful discussion.
Once upon a time, I "knew" that God was Jesus's Daddy, that us folks had all alienated ourselves from Him by being disobedient chilluns, and, fortunately, Jesus got nailed to some timbers so that we could go to heaven and meet Dad.
I "know" so little about God now that perhaps I don't even know that I wasn't right in the first place.
On the one hand, I've seen people whose lives were "train wrecks" until they came to a Christian faith. On the other hand, I've come to know nonbelievers of the highest moral stature.
And I just got a phone call I need to respond to before I get disconnected and lose this post....Dean

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 09:18 PM

"about the flat-affect hopelessness of our youth"

I like that line ..... and 'hope', especially for our youth ... something that certainly is diminishing in our western civilization sad to say.

Society, as a whole has to reinstate hope ... but then again, society as a whole has to demonstrate humanity and honesty ... yes, without argument faith can certainly provide that. The problem here arises when the EGO in faith surfaces and then "cold violence; will evolve into hot violence. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 09:21 PM

How many fundies, bad as they are, thought it a Good Thing to launch a war in the Middle East?

Or, for that matter, put an Idjit in the White House?


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 09:39 PM

From now on when I look out the window and see the Bay of Fundy I'll be reminded of who put that Idjit in the White House.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:05 PM

"How many fundies, bad as they are, thought it a Good Thing to launch a war in the Middle East? "...Or, for that matter, put an Idjit in the White House?"

                   While it's pretty clear that fundies put an Idjit in the White House--and now they're going to try to replace him with Gomer Pyle--it was the Neo-Cons, it seems to me, who launched the war in the Middle East.

                   A reasonably thinking individual might come to the conclusion that the Neo-Cons have figured out a way to control the fundies.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:07 PM

That is very astute.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:09 PM

A YOUTUBE video to help us all like, lighten up and get down!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:15 PM

Oh, yeah, CRANK THE VOLUME!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:25 PM

So, as it turns out, Chuck Berry had all of the answers the entire time. I thought Little Richard did that number as well, but those guys were goood... No doubt about that.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:33 PM

A little something to soothe the savage breast--YOUTUBE

But leave the volume UP THERE.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:36 PM

ELO = EGO   most definitely!

Good one Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:41 PM

And one last one for both my friends and enemies.


May G-d, science or whatever keep y'all safe and well. YOUTUBE

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 11:46 PM

And one from me to take you to the end of the line. Crank it out and enjoy the Silence of Bob.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 12:00 AM

Good one, Amos! It's all right!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 08:11 AM

They're all good. Thanks for posting them.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 10:17 AM

Frank,

I see religious people doing constructive things and in my own view, I interpret that as people just having a good sense of social values regardless of their belief system.

I wanted to sleep on that one. It niggled at me and I wanted to be sure what truthful fact was bugging me to let it rise to the surface. (The feeling was deep disagreement, but what was the fact?)

I strive, in my life, to be accurate. It's a deeply-embedded orientation from my upbringing. There was somehting inaccurate about that statement of yours, as I tried to fit it to the life I know [image of clothing cut for a different paper doll].

It's this-- I started out with pretty good values, so in that respect I agree with what I think you meant.

Where I may be diverging from your view is that my actions based on these and more-recently-embraced values has been greatly changed, strengthened, and made more "courageous," less "self-consicious," in the actions, the motives, the desired outcomes, the need even to know the outcomes.... actions that are enlivened and entwined with the personal presence of God with me when I take those actions.

And the values themselves have changed, grown, developed; partly as a matter of intention based on new imperatives with which I agree from my faith, and partly as a result of the learnings I have had while doing not what I might have wanted to do, but what I felt was obedient to God's imperatives whether discerned from Scripture, the teachings of preachers, or the personal presence of God and His guidance before the act and His affirmation after the act.

For me, this is one of the best aspects of my life in the faith as I look at it dynamically in present time and as I look back reflectively-- the constant challenge that takes me where I had not gone and where I would not have gone whie in the grip of my own interests.

And these actions are conformed to my love of our Lord-- very much NOT a matter of rigid, rule-driven obedience by rote.

I'm sure I'm not articulating this well, no matter how accurately I may try to write. But I think it is very, very different from the life in faith that most anti-religionists have witnessed, experienced, or been raised within or around. I think it is very different from what people rail against, and from the assumptions that drive their animus.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 02:23 PM

People who worship at the altar of science - what about thinking people who actually learn what science has to teach? There is no worship in what I have learned. There is no faith in what I believe, since it's been replicably demonstrated. Things like the existence of evolution and the deep age of the universe, and the lack of existence of anything special in our place in things or of survival (past death, that is) of the psyche.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 02:28 PM

And there are people who learn what religion has to teach. Thinking people. And in that simple observation, Mrzzy, you have stated a great truth. We all choose to believe what we all choose to believe. You may say that the course of the planets is controlled by gravity. OK. And science can and does demonstrate that. Others may choose to say that G-d created gravity, and no one can prove otherwise.

In the words of the prophet . . . FULL CIRCLE!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Mary
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 02:33 PM

(5th Dec)
Mary, for all you know it might take 2 gods. Everything else in the Universe seems to support some kind of dualism for existence.

Exactly Donuel, they all think they ARE God hence they all seek to be 'The One and only' there are many different braches, it just they are all trying to 'play God' in the end God is peace… anyone seen that lately!! There again peace in what we feel in our own souls, if you can, or have found that then you have found God…or something near to God. God = Sprit = strength, courage, character, strength of mind, moral fiber… It a shame more of the human race cant find some of these.

We all have our own beliefs surely that is finding 'our' God, whichever branch it comes from, one should respect the other……………of course that's an ideal situation, sadly for the human race it's impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 02:34 PM

Mrzzy, I was using 'you' where I should have been using 'one'. No offence intended.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 03:05 PM

and the lack of existence of anything special in our place in things or of survival (past death, that is) of the psyche.

Mrrzy:

Do you have a reference for some scientific analysis disprovng the "survival of the psyche"? I didn't think there was even a scientific definiton of the psyche.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 03:37 PM

Last year Richard Dawkins, well-known Oxford biologist who demonstrated the 'selfish gene', published "The God Delusion."
A new paperback edition will hit the bookstalls, January, 2008.
A good New Year's gift, if a little late for Christmas giving.

Dawkins characterizes the biblical Yahweh as psychotic, and focuses attention on intelligent design, pointing out fallacies in the construct. He regards religion as a divisive and oppressive force.

Additional suggested reading:
Christopher Hitchens, 2007, "God is not great, how religion poisons everything." Sample quote:
"Religion is violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism and tribalism and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive towards children."
Like Richard Dawkins, he denounces the religious education of young people as child abuse.
Hitchins is a British journalist who frequently appears on American talk shows.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 03:56 PM

And the point is?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 04:00 PM

"Like Richard Dawkins, he (Hitchens) denounces the religious education of young people as child abuse."

                And he's right. That's exactly what it is. That's why we have buffoons like Mike Huckabee running for president.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 04:19 PM

Speaking of books, "Breaking the Spell" (Daniel Dennett) is a fine read. He looks at religion from an anthropological and philosophical viewpoint. He's a non-believer, but he's not at all strident or Hitchens-esque. He's actually trying to appeal to religious folks to dip in.

I suspect everyone would find something to enjoy here.

I'm an atheist who does read the Bible; why not give Dennett a turn?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 05:58 PM

I read Dennett's book and found it very informative. I didn't find his style all that easy to read, however.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 06:20 PM

Hitchens is an off-putting commentator, often stretching to make a point on political talk shows. He reminds me of those overly bright kids in university who would break into a lecturer's speech, essentially saying, 'look at me, I'm brighter than the guy who is trying to teach you dumb bunnies.'
Dawkins argues from science; Hitchens is a journalistic pugilist who could take lessons from the late 19th c. orator who espoused agnosticism all across North America and England, Col. Robert G. Ingersoll. Ingersoll knew his subject and as well preached tolerance for all views- on the part of all parties.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,GOD
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 06:26 PM

I am here. Now prove I don't exist.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 07:44 PM

You got it all wrong GOD the Pretender ... we are all guests in God's house.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 08:34 PM

piffle, 'God'...if you were anything but a troll, you'd have a membership. Cookies are free here.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 08:35 PM

A book I would highly recommend to the religious, the unreligious, the irreligious, and the anti-religious is The Closing Of The Western Mind : The Rise Of Faith And The Fall Of Reason, by Charles Freeman.

Freeman discusses the history of Christianity objectively, with neither the advocacy, nor the hatred, nor the hysteria that many others discuss the matter, such as some of those mentioned above. It's not so much religion or religious people per se that are the problem, it's when particular religious institutions gain or are given secular power.

Freeman gives a history of Christianity from what was going on before it existed on into its early development as one religion among many, and its major turning point when Emperor Constantine, for reasons more political than religious, gave it the force of secular power. Then, Freeman traces the results of that transformation from there.

It explains a lot, and it is definitely a book that needs to be read as a warning for our time.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 09:10 PM

Dear God, Bill acknowledged that You exist.

If I were a PERFECT Christian I'd overlook that instead of ragging him about it, but I know You're still working on me. :~)

~Susan (hi Bill)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 09:22 PM

Got an email from an inlaw urging the reader to boycott the new U. S. dollar coin because 'In god we trust' had been removed. He was wrong, but it shows that he and others want to shove their narrow christianity down everybody's throat.

I agree, Freeman's book is a warning. Savonarola, the inquisition and the taliban are in the wings, striving to take over.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: haddocker
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 04:17 AM

Add to that the religion of secularism...they too are waiting in the wings.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,GOD
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 04:41 AM

Ha! Fooled you! I don't really exist at all!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: haddocker
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 05:28 AM

What is really interesting here is that this thread has been going since November based on a concept that many of the participants discard as fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 09:15 AM

What is really interesting here is that this thread has been going since November based on a concept that many of the participants discard as fantasy

Threads on this topic always do. Somehow, it's just more interesting than horror stories of how our car mechanics or doctors have screwed us up, when in fact managed care HAS already taken over the minds of our civilization.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bee
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 09:51 AM

Haddocker, whether we dismiss it as fantasy or not, it wields enormous influence over our civilizations and often our personal lives. Why wouldn't we want to discuss it, whether we believe in it or not?

I know a sweet and otherwise apparently sane woman who doesn't allow people to wander around her garden at certain times of day because it might disturb the garden pixies or fairies (can't recall exactly what she calls 'em). She really believes they're out there, helping her veggies and flowers grow.

Now that is a fairly rare belief (espoused by an odd group of seventies Scottish counter-culture gardeners, if I remember right). It seems pretty harmless, unlikely to end in slogans on coinage; nevertheless, it makes some kinds of conversations with her difficult, and if it were to become as prevalent as certain other religious beliefs, could have a profound effect on how we were permitted to raise crops or even walk on the land. Might even be in some ways beneficial. But some of us would have to say 'now, wait a minute!', despite the 'good' such a belief might accomplish, because there's no evidence of such beings, and not all the effects would be good ones.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 10:49 AM

BTW, as regards "the altar of science" -- what the hell is that? Those I know who work in scientific arenas use intellectual tools like calculus, and they use powers of reason to assess probable connections between data. They use healthy skepticism to avoid taking assertions on faith, and use their wits to devise methods of proof or disproof. In short they are busy using human intelligence to figure thigns out.

Where's the goddamn altar in all this? These guys are not invoking articles of faith or handing off their responsibility to imaginary entities, or even invoking cosmic spirits as their raison d'etre. They are motivated by a sense of exploration and a desire to know and explore knowledge and avoid the deceptions that blind belief leads people into.

Now, I grant you there are some folks in the world who are NOT scientists and who are not even literate in the field, who sometimes elect "the scientists" as their ward against confusion, and buy bogus science labels on fast food supplements and choose thier toothpaste based on someone using the word "science". But, it seems to me, that discussing any subject at all, you could spin your wheels endl;essly if you added intot he conversation all the confusions introduced by people ignorant of the subject.

By and large, those who actually "do" science are not interested in finding masses of semi-ignorant people to follow their teachings. They have enough trouble getting knowledgeable people to understand what they find.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 11:07 AM

A writer counters Papacy in a letter to the Times:

"To the Editor:

I am puzzled by Pope Benedict XVI's recent statement that "a world without God is a world without hope."

Tens of millions of atheists around the world lead lives filled with hope. We hope for many of the same things that Christians hope for: peace in our time, a better life for our children, justice for all, an end to poverty, and for a chance to enjoy our lives here and now.

The main difference between us and religious believers is that we accept that these things can be achieved only through our own efforts.

Steve Baughman
San Francisco, Dec. 1, 2007"

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 11:33 AM

Is that Steve Baughman the well respected celtic fingerstyle guitarist? I think I have a Christmas CD of his. Anyway his recording with Robin Bullock is one of my favorites.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 11:39 AM

"X-RAYS produced by particle accelerators have confirmed the authorship of paintings and probed the structure of fossils. Now they are illuminating the religious rites of ancient Africans.

Pascale Richardin's team at the Centre for Research and Restoration of the Museums of France in Paris exposed the coating on sculptures used between the 12th and 19th centuries in the rituals of the Dogon and Bamama people of Mali to X-rays produced at the European Synchrotron Radiation Facility in Grenoble.

The coating produced the telltale fluorescence of protein molecules laden with haem, an iron-containing group found in blood (Analytical Chemistry, DOI: 10.1021/ac070993k). "Blood is often reported in religious contexts, linked to animal sacrifices," says Richardin..." (New Scientist).

---

Hmmmmmm....



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 11:42 AM

"Tens of millions of atheists around the world lead lives filled with hope. We hope for many of the same things that Christians hope for: peace in our time, a better life for our children, justice for all, an end to poverty, and for a chance to enjoy our lives here and now."

"The main difference between us and religious believers is that we accept that these things can be achieved only through our own efforts."


... thanks for sharing that with us Amos.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 12:01 PM

Peace

Maybe. But in the biology book I learned from, and the teacher at that time, the text (in the arly 1960s) used that info.

Don't blame science for the inadequacies of your educational system. I blame the college principles myself.

However, granted when you said that science tends to correct its mistakes once they find them.

It doesn't "tend" to correct its mistakes, that's how it works. Scientists are highly competitive. As soon as one announces his theory, the others will fall on it like wolves to try and tear it apart.

People who worship at the altar of science are not much different from people who worship at the altars of religions.

Might I suggest, Peace, that you personal antipathy towards science is blurring your critical faculties?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 01:39 PM

Might I suggest Snail that you know not one damned thing about me. And because of that you should keep your assumptions to yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 02:03 PM

....and folks wonder why I have made myself scarce. I wish I had found this when it was started, as I would have closed it forthwith. A troll makes a statement bound to make the puppets dance, and they, quite predictably, do just that.

What I believe, or do not believe, is my business. It will be conducted in the privacy of my own processes. Whether I am a believer, an agnostic, or atheist; whether I live an ethical life or not, is not what this thread is about. It is about you all beating a dead horse, without regard to which side of the divide you fall on.

Those that suggest that they have never met people of faith that acted on their convictions for the good of all, are idiots and bigots. How many examples do you want? Ever heard of the Berrigans? How about the good Sisters who went to jail for smearing blood on the missile silos? How about Mother Theresa who could care less what your religion was, or even if you had one? She just cared for those abandoned, or ignored by you ivory tower idiots. What you do with Mohatma? How about Father Flanigan, who didn't care about anything but living up to his vows to help kids without regard to religion, or race. This was heady and dangerous stuff in the early twentieth century. We could use folks like him today. Among Mudcatters, some of the most ethical and faith filled folks I have met are Pagan. They are excellent examples to hold up to your kids of how one should walk on this path.

Those that suggest that atheists, secularists, and agnostics don't live ethical, value filled lives, are likewise idiots and bigots. The list would be too long to fill, of the public figures. But right here on our own Mudcat, of those of you I have met, Bill D and Amos spring immediately to mind as people that are as good an example of caring, ethical and responsible people as one could find. They present their views in a respectful way, and challenge one's own ideas in the way that good discourse should. I see a number of you taking the secular view, and a number of you taking the faith community view, that need to take a lesson from them.

Back to the swamp, and my hill. Anyone seen my trusty Low D whistle? I think we need to get away from the noise and make some music for Orion....

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 02:04 PM

Tell me this all you smokers and non-smokers out there. Do not scientists hired by 'stop smoking' interest groups go head to head with tobacco company scientists? Why do they seem to arrive at different conclusions?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 02:20 PM

It is about you all beating a dead horse, without regard to which side of the divide you fall on.


Hm! :~)

Mick, when I once wrote essentially that about a thread that had its share of negativity, you called it one of the best discussions you'd ever seen. Perhaps you meant to buck me up. I'd like to buck you up a bit too, because there were actually a few new thoughts in this thread that troubled you so, as well as some stellar evidence that some folks do actually keep thinking and reflecting-- they they learn from folks around them--

And IMO that's ALWAYS good news, no matter how much it may seem to disappear in a morass of stuck thinking.

Hoping your trusty low D showed you that pie in the sky somewhere near Orion,

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 02:36 PM

Actually, Susan, I wasn't referring to you. The fact that it seemed so to you should probably mean more to you than me.

This thread is a troll generated discussion designed to get the participants to act in a predictable way. It covers no new ground, is not about a subject that consensus could be reached on, and the same players are essentially saying the same things. And now, I am one of those.

As to pie in the sky....., you really should learn to recognize metaphor. I am actually headed back out on the road, not to return home to my family until two days before Christmas. The work I will be doing involves whether folks will have health insurance, whether they will be unjustly detained by folks carrying automatic weapons, and what kind of lifestyle their children will have. I guess that qualifies in some minds as pie in the sky. But those are the minds I am fighting every day. I just hope that I am sufficiently equipped for these fights, as the implications are pretty big for the folks that are in the fight with me.

I just jumped in to point out that some folks just still seem to get pulled in by these online parasites. Sorry about that. I have been gone a while and didn't realize that I had interrupted your drumbeat. Must remember those rules of social etiquette for your world.

Got to go catch a flight.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 02:41 PM

Peace -
I'm not sure how smoking got in this thread, but studies by scientists working for big tobacco usually came to the same obvious conclusions as those of the independents. The studies were suppressed by those who paid for them: executives, not scientists.

Even in the fifties and sixties one fact was clear: smoking was a major cause of lung cancer. There was no actual disagreement about this, unless you consider outright lying a disagreement.

Those who claimed that smoking was safe were aware of the falsehood of their claim. They were not disagreeing, they were lying. It's a different matter.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 03:08 PM

No Mick.... I didn't think you were referring to me.... I thought you were having a bad day.

The "pie in the sky" I referred to was the better times some of us reached in this thread, which are not at all like some of the past threads on the same topic in the past. As one poster saidsimilarly somewhere upthread, yes it did start as a nasty thing, but it soon eclipsed that intention to discuss things of more importance.

I hope you reach better times of your own, soon; I hope also that you will be able to remember that you are not alone in the good fight you describe.

Best wishes for a happy Christmas soon, with fam,ily,

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 03:23 PM

ahem..." ...Bill acknowledged that You exist."

not if it's in quotes, Susan. ☺ All I did was accuse a not-so-clever troll of pretending.
(I dunno what I'd do if a post suddenly appeared in mid-air in FRONT of the computer screen. Probably 1)check my meds. 2)ask for an extended interview to check credentials. (I gotta stay 'faithful' to my skeptical principles, don't I?)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 03:33 PM

☺

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bee
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 05:17 PM

I actually did see a page of computer text which appeared to be 'in mid-air' in front of the computer screen, but it was an optical illusion caused by putting 12 point text lines, two rows at a time, in red, on a black background, with white lines above and below. I remember it because it was devilish hard to read and might be useful for a project sometime.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 05:21 PM

Good luck in your travels and your travails, Mick. I'd love to know more when you have the time.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 05:54 PM

"Those who claimed that smoking was safe were aware of the falsehood of their claim. They were not disagreeing, they were lying. It's a different matter."


Oh.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 05:58 PM

Why has Tesla been marginalized by main-stream science?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 06:05 PM

The Zeitgeist Release video has some strong sentiments. Worth watching.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 08:00 PM

Peace

Might I suggest Snail that you know not one damned thing about me. And because of that you should keep your assumptions to yourself?

Sorry Peace, didn't mean to cause offence. That was intened as a rather light hearted quip having self censored my initial reaction. My assumptions are based entirely on the things you have said about science on here some of which seem to be based on prejudice rather than knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 08:02 PM

Peace

Do not scientists hired by 'stop smoking' interest groups go head to head with tobacco company scientists? Why do they seem to arrive at different conclusions?

I've no idea. Give me some references and I'll have a look.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 09:17 PM

So, as Mick has just pointed out, Troll "Ed" tossed the apple of discord into Mudcat--and the usual suspects immediately dove for it--over 400 posts worth.

A singularly useless waste of time--even worse than political threads. At least on political threads there are new developments to consider.

As if anybody can "prove" to the satisfaction of "Ed" or anybody else that God exists--or to any religious person that the opposite is true. Everybody knows it's a question of your own personal view. Nobody is about to be convinced either way. And tolerance takes another body blow, courtesy of an obvious agent provocateur.

Well, hope you continue to have fun. At least it's not absurdly long cut-and-pastes.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 01:16 AM

Whew, I can't possibly read all of this but it seems obvious that those who know Jesus or have experienced God will believe. Those who have not formed the relationship, do not believe.

Others prefer to say maybe there is and maybe there isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 03:50 AM

Peace

Why has Tesla been marginalized by main-stream science?

What makes you think he has?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 08:25 AM

Peace...
Is your interest in Tesla based on the fact that he called his proposed killing machine a "Peace Ray"? (Actually true, I didn't make this up!)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 08:58 AM

NO, not We all choose to believe what we all choose to believe. You may say that the course of the planets is controlled by gravity. OK. And science can and does demonstrate that. Others may choose to say that God created gravity, and no one can prove otherwise. That is missing the point. There is evidence for gravity - so "believing" in it is a conclusion, not a choice in what to believe. There is no evidence for god creating gravity, so there is no reason to believe that. Thus that would require faith, which belief in gravity does not.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 09:52 AM

It eventually comes down to one person and that person's beliefs.

No one has yet asked what mine are. So, at this point it looks like a few people expressing an opinion about something (in this case, my beliefs) they believe. Take a good look at yourselves.

In fact, I am very much supportive of the scientific method. But people are confusing two worlds and failing to understand the world they do not support. Good scientists explore possibilities of the physical reality by/with which we are surrounded. People who believe in G-d explore the possibilities of the 'other' world by/with which we are surrounded. Personally, I don't really care who believes what.

"News
Tobacco company set up network of sympathetic scientists
Clare Dyer, legal correspondent, BMJ


The US tobacco giant Philip Morris set up a network of scientists throughout Europe who were paid to cast doubt on the risks of passive smoking and highlight other possible causes of respiratory problems, according to confidential documents from the company's law firm released on the internet.

The company's consultants included "an editor" of the Lancet, an adviser to a Commons select committee, and members of working groups of the International Agency for Research in Cancer, claims a memo from the US lawyers Covington and Burling.

Clues in the documents point to the Lancet contact as the late Petr Skrabanek, who was not an editor but a regular contributor who wrote editorials among other articles. Robin Fox, the Lancet's editor from 1990 to 1995, said it was "very likely" that Dr Skrabanek, who was an associate professor of community health at Trinity College, Dublin, was the scientist referred to in the memo.

Under the heading "Lancet" the memo says: "One of our consultants is an editor of this very influential British medical journal, and is continuing to publish numerous reviews, editorials, and comments on environmental tobacco smoke and other issues." Dr Fox said Dr Skrabanek did not write editorials on smoking."

The rest of the story may be found at

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/316/7144/1553/d

The prevailing presumption is that anyone who thinks science/scientists are manipulated for other agendas has to be a believer in G-d and anyone who believes in G-d has to be anti science. That is not logical.

Some views about Tesla.


Y'all can keep this thread because it is going nowhere, imo. At least as far as my time is concerned. Keep well, all.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 10:20 AM

Well, with all due respect, I think it has been an interesting exchange of views, regardless of who initiated it.

The notion, touched on by Peace, that existence comprises multiple domains, one being the quantum-based particle-driven material space-time continuum, and one being the universe of attention, thought, elan vital, "soul" (whatever it is) and such phenomena, is an interesting one to me, and I consider it a good working hypothesis to account for a lot of ordinary data as well as much rigorous scientific data. I think, also, that there may be a third domain of "agreed upon thoughts and feelings" that builds social tides and pressures that are neither physical nor spiritual and have their own kind of inertia and momentum, which is the subject of the relatively new field of memetics. Popular perceptions and emotions based on "group think", for example, would come under this heading, as would those confusing "supposed to" beliefs of moral agreement which sometimes seem disconnected from real life outside a given tribe.

I could even suggest the possibility that acheiving balance in all three domains is the whole task of human sanity, and imbalance between them the origin of insanity.

It's an interesting model,anyway.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: haddocker
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 10:56 AM

I think that the post by PEACE regarding the various interpretations of the occurrences of life was at once profound and hilarious. Kudos to you brother! I took a course in World Religions and studied them all. This was an appropriate summarization which I might certainly use if writing a paper on Interfaith dialogue. Peace and Good Will to all who abide in this house, not only in this season, but in all seasons.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 11:29 AM

Can we all agree then that we ALL believe in gravity? Or is that open for discussion also?

Just so it's clear - I've always believed in gravity. It was my parents belief before me too - there was a point where I rejected it as brain washing. But I've come back around and consider myself a believer again.

Can I get an AMEN somebody????

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 11:46 AM

Oh, yes, and evidence for the non-survival of the psyche lies in brain-dead people. By destroying the BRAIN, you can destroy the self and leave the body alive. There is no way to destroy the body and leave the self alive, though, and it takes faith, not reason, to believe that the self survives the death of the body/brain.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 12:43 PM

General relativity indicates the gravity is merely a curvature of space, which makes it a kind of illusion. If Newton's Theory had been accepted on "faith", Einstein's work would have been ignored.

Does it matter? If you use a GPS, yes. They won't work with Newton's formulae.

I still think Newton was a very clever fellow, though.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 12:55 PM

Peace

In fact, I am very much supportive of the scientific method.

I'm sorry, Peace, but some of your statements about science suggest that you have a rather poor understanding of the scientific method.

The US tobacco giant Philip Morris set up a network of scientists throughout Europe who were paid to cast doubt on the risks of passive smoking and highlight other possible causes of respiratory problems

As exposed by this article in the Lancet. In other words, by the scientific community.

Some views about Tesla.

Try these -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla
http://www.pbs.org/tesla/
http://www.teslasociety.com/biography.htm

Tesla has an SI unit, a crater on the Moon, a minor planet and an international airport, amongst other things, named after him. If that is being marginalized, I could live with it.

I would suggest you extend you reading about science beyond the Colorado Springs Independant.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 12:59 PM

Oh, yes, and evidence for the non-survival of the psyche lies in brain-dead people. By destroying the BRAIN, you can destroy the self and leave the body alive. There is no way to destroy the body and leave the self alive, though, and it takes faith, not reason, to believe that the self survives the death of the body/brain.

I would counter your argument, Mrrz, by likening it to the assertion that by destroying a cell-phone, you put an end to all conversations. It removes the self from the netowrk, but leaves the body alive, no?

As to faith versus reason, I suggest you investigate past efforts to document cases of reincarnation, of which there are several extensive ones, with close attention to those cases where information made it across the boundary which could not otherwise have been explained, of which there are a few salient instances. In an earlier thread onthis subject, I forget the title, we discussed OBEs and NDEs, and there was one particular case of a patient walking away from her body during complete anaesthesia and observing things from the ceiling and nearby locations. You may recall the story. One of tyhe things she reported afterwards was the location of a sneaker that had been dropped onto a ledge a story or two above the floor where the operation was being held, something she could not possibly have known from any point of view her body had taken. But the perception was later corroborated by an independent observer, who went and found it exactly where and as she described it. Sorry I don't have the references to hand here at work. All I can say is, I recommend that this subject be one about which you maintain an open curiousity.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 01:42 PM

Go stalk someone else, Snail. I have nothing to say to you. Not today, not tomorrow, not ever again.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 02:47 PM

Hi Susan,

I appreciated your comments.

"Where I may be diverging from your view is that my actions based on these and more-recently-embraced values has been greatly changed, strengthened, and made more "courageous," less "self-consicious," in the actions, the motives, the desired outcomes, the need even to know the outcomes.... actions that are enlivened and entwined with the personal presence of God with me when I take those actions."

I think I know where you are coming from. I have an odd background in religion. I was raised fairly agnostic/atheist from a predominantly Jewish lineage on my mother's side, who was herself raised as a Roman Catholic. I was at one time baptised as a Congregationalist, became a Unitarian, explored Nicheran Shoshu, the mod-Buddhist off-shoot and spent a little time with the Bahais. I also explored Siddha Yoga and from all of these travels derive my understanding of how some folks feel about their "conversion" experiences or the presence of a deity. Through all of that, I hesitate to condemn people who have their personal beliefs. I have, however, found freedom from religion liberating and as a result have developed a social-consciousness that I never would have had if I had remained with any of these spiritual-seeking enterprises.

"And the values themselves have changed, grown, developed; partly as a matter of intention based on new imperatives with which I agree from my faith, and partly as a result of the learnings I have had while doing not what I might have wanted to do, but what I felt was obedient to God's imperatives whether discerned from Scripture, the teachings of preachers, or the personal presence of God and His guidance before the act and His affirmation after the act."

I respect The Sermon on the Mount as did Jefferson. However, I regard it as important
mythology (in the Joseph Campbell sense). It is a blueprint for sane behavior whether I believe in an actual Jesus or not.

"For me, this is one of the best aspects of my life in the faith as I look at it dynamically in present time and as I look back reflectively-- the constant challenge that takes me where I had not gone and where I would not have gone whie in the grip of my own interests. "

I understand this fully and feel the same way although in my experience I can share those views as a process in letting go of God.

"And these actions are conformed to my love of our Lord-- very much NOT a matter of rigid, rule-driven obedience by rote."

You are far too intelligent to be "rule-driven by obedience by rote". I understand Epsicopalians to be the more intellectual of the prominent religions and I am reminded
that there exists an atheist Episcopalian who loves the sense of community and ritual that is provided as well as the residual religious knowledge about the bible that he absorbs.
He nonetheless remains an atheist.

"I'm sure I'm not articulating this well, no matter how accurately I may try to write. But I think it is very, very different from the life in faith that most anti-religionists have witnessed, experienced, or been raised within or around. I think it is very different from what people rail against, and from the assumptions that drive their animus."

I think you have expressed your views very well. I am more sympathetic to them then I have communicated, even though this sense of liberation, internal strength, development of social consciousness and a kind of hopefulness emanates from my personal quest and arrival that a God is not the answer for me and I am relieved of that structural burden. That doesn't make me hostile or unsympathetic to your experience which I can respect without having to embrace it personally. I remember times in my life where I believed in a God and thought it transforming and life-changing. For me, it was something I went through and I don't regret it because it did make me more understanding of this feeling in others. Now I see it differently. I think one can be an un-believer and still have the awe and sense of wonder when you look at the sky, the course of evolution, the amazing accomplishments of science that are constructive, the tuning in to Einstein's capacity for the appreciation without his embracing a personal God. His was a God of Spinoza, more pantheonic than monothestic. Carl Sagan communicated this sense of "spirituality" without religious references and his life reflects a deep committment and respect for
the world and the universe.

As to whether there is any proof of God(s) or Jesus, it is a logical fallacy that you can prove a negative. The question is unanswerable in any sense because of its built in illogicality.
I prefer to see hard evidence before I will accept someone else's account. But in no way will I condemn good behavior however it is motivated.

A word about the Manichean use of "Good and Evil". I reject these as absolutes.
I prefer terms like "dysfunctional", "anti-social", "pathological", and other operative terms that define behavior.

Once again, I respect where you are coming from and in no way want to denigrate your personal experience.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 02:59 PM

Peace

Go stalk someone else, Snail. I have nothing to say to you. Not today, not tomorrow, not ever again.

Sorry it turned out this way, Peace. I'd always thought of you as one of the good guys. I'm dissappointed to find that you feel you can make preposterous statements about science without expecting anybody to disagree with you.

Why did you ask the question about Tesla if you didn't want an answer?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 03:07 PM

Um - how in the world is my argument that you can have brain-dead bodies, but not brain-alive not-bodies, like the assertion that by destroying a cell-phone, you put an end to all conversations?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 03:19 PM

Frank, thank you for the thumbnail sketch of your spiritual experience and your nice comments. Some time if it is of interest I would find it equally interesting to learn what led you to the extremely negative comments you've made from time to time, which you took responsibility for so articulately upthread. This particular thread, I think, is running its course and will wind to an end soon, so I will not look for that here (if indeed you would want to go into it at all). But I will be on the lookout for your posts in a new way as a result of our exchanges on this thread, and I have enjoyed thinking with you.

Thanks also for the reference to E'palians and thinking-- yes, reason is what we think of as the third leg of the stool our faith rests upon. Also it is often said that to embrace the best Anglicanism has to offer, one must be willing to live with/in/around/through ambiguity. I like to extend that by adding that it's best to also have a deep curiosity, and the ability to keep one's eyes wide open at all times and not look away from the difficult and the complex.

But yeah, the E'palians I know are pretty into that thinking thing. :~) Yet some of my best friends, who I think of as temporarily confused, have been fundies whose usual mode of thinking is pretty rigid. They're amazingly vulnerable, one on one, to a playful, inquiring spirit. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 03:27 PM

Snail, Peace has a habit of playing devil's advocate. Just because he asks the questions doesn't mean he's putting forth an answer. Gets people who aren't paying attention all the time.

Try to find the 'preposterous statements' he made, and you'll find questions only. Your mind turned them into statements. If something doesn't make sense to you, it might just be because you got it wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 04:10 PM

Mrzzy:

The model that the brain has no owner, but is itelf the place where thought itself comes from out of its complexity of neurons, synapses and combinatorial multiples thereof, ignores the possibility that -- if the WERE a psyche it would apprently have to use the brain as a step-down transformer and switching device for command relay and pulling perceptics off the nerves.

Similarly, it is easy to imagine a superstitious or at least unsophisticated primitive person looking at a cell phone and wondering how all those conversations got into the little box of wires. "Every time you pick it up it starts telling some strange person's story! Amazing. WHat a machine!! SOmeday we will figure out the complex wiring int his thing, and see how those stories are generated by those little wires, capacitors, resistors and chokes. RIght now the complexity of the design is too great to see how it really works, but give us time."

I know the metaphor is stretched, but the fact that people can't operate bodies with damaged brains does not in any way prove that people ARE brains.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 05:15 PM

>>Oh, yes, and evidence for the non-survival of the psyche lies in brain-dead people. By destroying the BRAIN, you can destroy the self and leave the body alive. There is no way to destroy the body and leave the self alive, though, and it takes faith, not reason, to believe that the self survives the death of the body/brain.<<

Not at all. There is a reason to suppose that consciousness (I prefer not to use the term "self") survives the death of the body.

To be conscious at a bare minimum, I have to be able to recall experiences. If I was unconscious during an event then I cannot recall and so it cannot be an experience.

If I cannot recall an event at the moment then nothing can be known of the state of my consciousness when that event occurred. I may, for example, recall it later, in which case, it is an experience. If I can never recall it, then I was not conscious during that event and so it is not an experience.

But I was conscious at all the events I recall even if my recall is not perfect (and whose is?).

I must be able to remember events in order for them to have been experiences and I must be able to remember them as often as I want to. I must also be able to remember remembering them. Theoretically, I can remember experiences an infinite number of times.

NOW, suppose I am born at time T0, live a full life and then die at time T1. Further suppse that my consciousness is extinguished at time T1. How would I ever know I was conscious? The time interval from T0 to T1 has been reduced to zero. It becomes missing time.

BUT, I must be able to remember all my experiences in order to be conscious and must be able to remember them an infinite number of times if I choose to. Since I am conscious now (because I meet all the above requirements for consciousness), death cannot extinguish my consciousness. If it does, then I cannot be conscious now, which is a contradiction. So the conclusion is, death does not extinguish consciousness.

Now I'm not saying this is necessarily true but I am saying that to believe that consciousness survives the death of the body is not merely an act of faith opposed to reason.

However, this same argument also proves there is no eternal reward or punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 05:41 PM

Jeri

Snail, Peace has a habit of playing devil's advocate.

I don't have a problem with that, I would just like the right to reply.

Try to find the 'preposterous statements' he made, and you'll find questions only. Your mind turned them into statements. If something doesn't make sense to you, it might just be because you got it wrong.

Peace

some science is based on belief, too

No it isn't. I've already gone over this.

All triangles have 180 degrees (interior angles). That holds true until someone draws a triangle on a globe, and then it has 270 degrees. Then someone defines triangle as figure drawn on a flat surface, as if such a thing is at all possible in a universe that is curved. Even flat surfaces aren't flat.

Triangles and flat surfaces are theoretical concepts. Whether either of them can be constructed in the real universe is entirely irrelevant.

They have each lied to protect their respective 'positions of authority'. Remember the "Rule of 48".

Nobody lied. They got it wrong. It was put right. No 'positions of authority' or vested interests were at stake.

However, granted when you said that science tends to correct its mistakes once they find them. But I still don't trust either religions or science. Too many vested interests--in both.

I've already dealt with "tends". Peace is right not to trust the institutions of science or, at least, to hold them up to scrutiny. That is not the same thing as mistrusting science.

People who worship at the altar of science are not much different from people who worship at the altars of religions.

Oh, come ON! That is a declaration of personal prejudice not a rational statement.

why DO we develop/do bad stuff-whether in the name of science or the name of religion?

Individual scientists may 'develop/do bad stuff' because they are greedy, idealistic, patriotic or just plain nasty human beings. I don't think anybody does it 'in the name of science'.

In fact, I am very much supportive of the scientific method.

I'm sorry but the statements above show that Peace doesn't really understand the scientific method.

Good scientists explore possibilities of the physical reality by/with which we are surrounded.

At last, something we can agree on but they cannot choose what they are going to find before they find it. Physical reality is what it is.

Why has Tesla been marginalized by main-stream science?

Surely Peace was throwing down a challenge here. He quoted the Colorado Springs Independant. I quoted Wikipedia, the Public Broadcasting Service and the Tesla Memorial Society of New York.
In response I got -

Go stalk someone else, Snail. I have nothing to say to you. Not today, not tomorrow, not ever again.

I think science matters. Am I not allowed to say so?

(Oh bugger! I've descended into a cut-N-paste war.)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 05:51 PM

Ron's observation seems to have encouraged the "usual" suspects, rather than having brought them to their senses. For myself, two things are apparent:

1) Gravity must exist, otherwise, how could people go around in circles?

2)God must exist, since he is the prime cause of people going around in these circles.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 06:09 PM

Therefore, God is a circle. Makes perfect sense.



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 06:30 PM

"... There is a reason to suppose that consciousness (I prefer not to use the term "self") survives the death of the body."

What is required to make this supposition? I don't suppose any such thing. Statements such as that comprise some of the real conceptual difficulties that we face in the whole discussion.

(as one who usually gets deeply into these discussions, I find this one very hard to get a handle on, and I have been too busy to sort out my many reactions and opinions well enough to do justice to the detailed claims & counter-claims)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 06:48 PM

Snail, it's starting to look to me like 'stalking' isn't as over-the-top a word as it did at first. He's left the discussion. You'd look less lost if you stopped trolling for him.

Regarding Tesla, I could ask 10 random people to name famous people involved with electrical discovery. Edison would be among them because of the light bulb. Would Tesla? I doubt it. If you think having... shifting mod here... if you think getting stuff named after you after you're dead is important, fine. I don't think it was what floated Tesla's boat.

No belief involved in science? Of course there is! Hypotheses are beliefs. Conclusions may be beliefs. The data isn't, but the reason why there are disagreements is because of the different interpretations of what the data proves. The things about science that doesn't involve belief is the data, and the fact that if an experiment is valid, it can be repeated again and again.

You don't have science without hypotheses and interpretations. We need that spark of imagination to learn anything. That's why I think the true evil isn't in belief or non-belief in a thing but in telling other people not to imagine, to dream, and to find their own beliefs. True, some folks will try to prove them and others will be satisfied with what they have, but EVERYBODY gets to decide for themselves... which is probably what pisses a few folks off so much.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 07:12 PM

"That's why I think the true evil isn't in belief or non-belief in a thing but in telling other people not to imagine..."

                Which is exactly why religion is true evil.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 08:22 PM

Jeri

Snail, it's starting to look to me like 'stalking' isn't as over-the-top a word as it did at first. He's left the discussion. You'd look less lost if you stopped trolling for him.

So because he has chosen to leave the discussion I have no right of reply? I have no personal quarrel with Peace but he has said things about science that I wish to challenge. Has he won the field by leaving it?

No belief involved in science? Of course there is! Hypotheses are beliefs. Conclusions may be beliefs.

No they are not! I'm quite happy to discuss that if you like.

Peace didn't say "10 random people" wouldn't know who Tesla was. He said "Why has Tesla been marginalized by main-stream science?". As evidence he quoted an article from the Colorada Springs Independant; not known as a main-stream science journal.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: MaineDog
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 08:30 PM

:(

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 08:46 PM

Oh, fer krissake. This main-stream enough for you?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 09:06 PM

Do people that believe in GOSH go to HECK?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: bobad
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 09:11 PM

DANGED if I know.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 09:15 PM

Wait - I think something's backwards. First, I am not ignoring the possibility you mention - what I say is that there is no evidence for it, so there is no reason to believe in that possibility.

And aren't you saying that actually it's the primitive superstition people, rather than the reasonable, who would think that removing a cell phone removes conversations? Who would say that since we can't understand it, it must be supernatural? The thinking would not.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 09:31 PM

No evidence?

I have seen much evidence. But it by its nature is not replicable laboratory evidence. How could it be?

IF we were primitive superstitious people about the primacy of matter, and based on that concluded that harming the brain would snuff out the psyche, why would that be any different? I think th eparallel is actually quite apt. It is true that thinking people, generally, do not cut themselves off from enquiry, but in both these examples they appear to be doing so.

It is one thing to adhere to a well-reasoned viewpoint and defend it against unreason.

But it is another thing to understand where and how viewpoints are produced, made, bought and sold, and enquire as to the nature of that process. Any paradigm is all-embracing in its bloom, when tons of new data flood in to support it; but any paradigm also eliminates the anomalous. Measuring with the units of space-time, all existence is spatial and temporal.
IF we could learn to measure with the units of thought itself -- rather than using thought to bound itself into space-time -- I am sure it would paint a different picture altogether.

A


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 09:50 PM

No, Amos, the inferral is that God created the circle. And if he created the circle, the circle implies the square, which means a lot of the people here. Very, very, square.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 11:08 PM

....what I say is that there is no evidence for it, so there is no reason to believe in that possibility....

But if there is no definitive evidence against it, then in order to investigate a matter one must believe in the possibility; otherwise, there would be no scientific experiments done on anything. One can hypothesize without evidence in order to seek evidence-- for or against.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 02:54 AM

God may not be a circle but I reckon He is around!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 06:33 AM

WYSIWYG

One can hypothesize without evidence in order to seek evidence

At the risk of being accused of stalking, hypotheses do not spring out of nowhere looking for evidence. They are generally formulated to suggest an explanation for an observed phenomenon (Why do apples fall out of trees and why do planets follow the orbits that they do?) or to fill in the gaps not covered by exisiting theories. (Newton's theories of motion and gravity do not cover the behaviour of light. Newton new this.)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 09:06 AM

The idea I have has been treated in great novels from time imemorial yet when one thinks of the story of the last supper where Jesus speaks of the human condition of conformity and tells everyone that they too will "deny" him. In his case the ice shattered too late to save his life. Of course his case was complicated by imperial political opression by Rome and temple conformists who sought to curry favor and power by pushing for cruxifiction.

The twist that was put on this story was to forgive everyone for their conformist nature that resulted in murder by saying Christ now forgives everyone... however it applies only to those who pay and obey the new church.

Thise early apostles missed a great opportunity to see the weakness in humanity when it comes to group "herd" behavior for what it is and teach a gospel to overcome this weakness instead of just saying its OK god will forgive you later.

The otherwise sweet evangelist neighbors across the street became active hateful bigots who seek to destroy FAGS and abortionists sooo easily and naturally by group dynamic conformity they too expect others to do so in as little as a week of indoctrination.

I too saw my self falling prey to hate mongering for several days following 9-11.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 09:13 AM

At the risk of being accused of stalking, hypotheses do not spring out of nowhere looking for evidence. They are generally formulated to suggest an explanation for an observed phenomenon (Why do apples fall out of trees and why do planets follow the orbits that they do?) or to fill in the gaps not covered by exisiting theories. (Newton's theories of motion and gravity do not cover the behaviour of light. Newton new this.)

[gasp] NO!!!!!!!!! Why, I never knew THAT! [shock]

All kidding aside, yes I know that, DUH, and that's why I posted exactly what I did. If someone observes something through any means [what a shock] they may want to TEST the suspected cause.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 10:12 AM

AN excerpt from a recent piece in the Times:
"e brain, like every other part of the body, changes with age, and those changes can impede clear thinking and memory. Yet many older people seem to remain sharp as a tack well into their 80s and beyond. Although their pace may have slowed, they continue to work, travel, attend plays and concerts, play cards and board games, study foreign languages, design buildings, work with computers, write books, do puzzles, knit or perform other mentally challenging tasks that can befuddle people much younger.

But when these sharp old folks die, autopsy studies often reveal extensive brain abnormalities like those in patients with Alzheimer's. Dr. Nikolaos Scarmeas and Yaakov Stern at Columbia University Medical Center recall that in 1988, a study of "cognitively normal elderly women" showed that they had "advanced Alzheimer's disease pathology in their brains at death." Later studies indicated that up to two-thirds of people with autopsy findings of Alzheimer's disease were cognitively intact when they died.

"Something must account for the disjunction between the degree of brain damage and its outcome," the Columbia scientists deduced. And that something, they and others suggest, is "cognitive reserve."

Cognitive reserve, in this theory, refers to the brain's ability to develop and maintain extra neurons and connections between them via axons and dendrites. Later in life, these connections may help compensate for the rise in dementia-related brain pathology that accompanies normal aging."

Dig it lads and lasses--a brain riddled with Alzheimers, and a being who ignores it and keeps on trucking into his or her late 80's.
The explanation must be "more brain", right? Nothing else woudl account for it...


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 12:57 PM

WYSIWYG

[gasp] NO!!!!!!!!! Why, I never knew THAT! [shock]

Since you had just said precisely the opposite, I rather jumped to the conclusion that you didn't know that.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 01:35 PM

Amos, a well tested genius showed in scans that his brain was in fact 18% smaller than the average brain.

ergo I believe: While we all are a product of what we learn and the people we know...
The secret is in the quality of experience and the wiring of these experiences in the brain and has little to do with the quantity of neurons.

If a neoron were a city a superior brain will have more bridges for its cities. Merely having more cities with fewer roads in and out is not an advantage.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 01:38 PM

Many of these discussions turn into vitriol because of the use of labels. I think Sam Harris and Jonathan Miller may be right in stating that in attempting to define one's beliefs or ideas through the use of labels is useless. If I don't eat potatoes, can I logically label myself as a "non-potato eater"? Each label has to be defined by not only the person who uses it on others as a weapon but by the person upon whom it is used.

A lot of confusion is brought about by the assumptions that the label engenders by the one using it. Some of these terms such as "atheist" or "communist" or "terrorist" are loaded terms that are used to beat others over the head. Then the dialogue collapses.

Owning a label requires the responsibility of those who use it to carefully articulate their position so that they can be understood. Often, though, the label just gets in the way.

As to the issue of smoking and its moral implications, tobacco is a legalized drug which creates addicts. (Some attitudes about religion can do this as well.) I see smoking as a sickness which unfortunately affects others badly rather than just the smoker. I see it essentially as an anti-social behavior but would not want to characterize it as being a moral problem.

Susan, my anger, which I've come to understand is based on my environment. I live in the Southern US and there are a lot of evangelicals, here, who are stifling the Separation in the US Constitution. I now see that their approach is a form of addiction. It has nothing to do with a search for meaning or truth. I have found that generally people in the Northern US or in Europe have a much more wholesome view about the nature of religion. Some accept it as a personal belief that informs their behavior and others like me don't. If I see this fundamentalist view of religion as an addiction, I can understand it better and not paint everyone with a religious belief system as an addict. The key to understanding the reactionary nature of some who are anti-theist is that they are fighting their own addiction to anger and self-righteousness.   It boils down to "the Crips and the Bloods".
It is a dangerous tribal mentality that puts humankind into wars.

I see that the solution is always dialogue and understanding. I am open to many different ideas that people have and I can even understand them without having to go along.
One of the big problems that anti-religionists have is the notion of "enabling". The broad stroke is that all religionists are enabling fundamentalism. I don't think this is true whereas I once did. I think that in the final analysis, it's what people do with their lives that is more important than what they profess to believe on any soapbox.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 02:07 PM

"But if there is no definitive evidence against it, then in order to investigate a matter one must believe in the possibility; otherwise, there would be no scientific experiments done on anything. One can hypothesize without evidence in order to seek evidence-- for or against."

This is a difficult claim to examine. It IS true and logical...as it stands, but I think there is an unstated premise..perhaps even what is called "undistributed middle" embedded in it.
   Since we are dealing with religious and (obliquely) paranormal beliefs in this thread, it must be assumed that the assertion is being made that "hypothesizing without evidence" can be applied to them, just as we do in science at times. (There are all sorts of hypotheses about "missing matter" in the universe, and where it may 'be'. We have VERY little 'evidence' for some of the ideas being explored.)
   But with religious & paranormal claims & beliefs, the very concept of what might constitute evidence alters. Here we allow hearsay (reports of , historical & cultural 'data', psychological & emotional content (some of which includes supposed historical data), and equivocation on the definition OF evidence to count towards confidence in beliefs.

   I think it is a mistake to confuse the scientific method with what we do when exploring religious tenets. In other discussions, some of those who do hold strong religious beliefs have stated that they 'feel' the value and truth of their positions despite the seeming conflicts with the narrow restriction of the scientific method....and I would suggest that this is the way it must remain.

   *IF* there is truth to religious claims and beliefs, it, by definition, is not subject to 'testing' in the same way a theory of 'dark matter' is. (They are building a new telescope that they think will reveal some traces of part of the missing matter.) No one seems to be able to even suggest what a 'test' for God might be, except waiting till after death, and seeing what happens.

   It is true that NO ONE can DISprove God..etc..(or Vishnu, or Ahura Mazda, or...etc..)...but we simply have different notions of how to interpret either the freedom, or the obligations that this gives us.

Whether we accept some religious doctrine or not, all we can do is explain OUR subjective rationale for our decision.
The crucial thing for BOTH sides is how we deal with the everyday, pragmatic decision of how to interact with each other and make integrating our differences as smooth and comfortable as possible. We are not about to legislate that people should not have religious faith....we should not, and could not if some of us we wanted to. But we do need to guard against that vocal minority who would legislate the other way. As long as there ARE 2 sides to this issue, we MUST coexist as peacefully as possible.

(27 sub paragraphs about specific details omitted to spare my fingers and to give this any chance of being read)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 02:15 PM

(and Frank Hamilton kindly managed to expound on one of my possible sub-paragraphs while *I* was typing)

Thanks, Frank...it, sadly, IS little more than an addiction or tribal mentality with some....but that doesn't mean it is less relevant. It may even be more so because some are so unthinking in the detail and practice of their particular belief system. I would imagine there'd be far fewer suicide bombers without a belief in immediate entrance to "paradise".

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Jim Dusty
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 02:53 PM

All religion is bollocks, but weak-minded people and those of low intelligence seem to need it as some sort of psychological crutch, or a convenient way to deny their own responsibilities. As a species we obviously invented it because we needed it, but I think in this day and age it's high time we grew out of it. Historically it's caused nothing but trouble, let's face it. It is basically childish.

I have spoke, and you should all believe me :-)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 02:56 PM

Wow - A trolling post from a guest. What a shock and suprise.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 03:20 PM

GUEST,Jim Dusty, I'm gonna fry your ass with one of my most powerful lightning bolts. Not right away, though. I'm gonna get you when you least expect it!

God

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 03:47 PM

I live in the Southern US and there are a lot of evangelicals, here, who are stifling the Separation in the US Constitution. I now see that their approach is a form of addiction. It has nothing to do with a search for meaning or truth.

THis is the most interesting observation I have seen in these parts in some time. It shows me something quite interesting about the error in approach that liberals make when trying to "make sense" of the adversarial, antagonistic, even destructively angry views thrown out by some deep-dyed believers -- an example was the man who was yelling at a Presidential candidate the other day, "All we need to know about you is whether you believe thew Book I have in my hand, literally, every word...". Which, to a reasonable outside, is an absurd proposition. But to an addict, of course, it is the sound of gospel going down, the candy man knocking at the door, sugar-plums dancing in his head, and Santa arriving with a fat envelope with his name on it.

I would also observe that this is exactly the same error that the Bush administration made in considering the ramifications of destabilizing Iraq while having NO concept of the depth and duration of the grudges, religious battles, and sectarian bitterness that manifests from the very similar addictions (including the obsessive identification with protoplasm) that informs the people they were planning to invade.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Jim Dusty
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 04:01 PM

"From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 03:20 PM

GUEST,Jim Dusty, I'm gonna fry your ass with one of my most powerful lightning bolts. Not right away, though. I'm gonna get you when you least expect it!

God"



Too late mate.
Mind you, it might fix the haemorrhoids I suppose..

Hitler and Torquemada were both Catholics - oh, and Stalin was Russian Orthodox - how's that for trolling?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 04:25 PM

Yes, Amos! We're on the same page.

I think in the case of Bush that he knows full well the extent of the damage that he intends.
I say this because I believe that he is pushing for regime change and to privatize the military,
the Iraqi government so that it will be more receptive to PNAC and continue to reap the profits of the oil industry....Naomi Klein has spelled it out in "The Schock Doctrine".

The rabid evangelicals are being lead by the nose. Rove has used them. Some, however, such as Robertson have rationalized their acquisitive greed by such views as "god intended it".

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 04:30 PM

500

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 04:33 PM

Sure - INVESTIGATE the possibility, yes, but believe in it before the evidence is in, isn't thinking.

And if you have no replicable evidence, you have no EVIDENCE. Look it up.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 04:38 PM

Yikes. I was yelling. Sorry - bad day at work with the mice.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 05:09 PM

I am in favor of the scientific investigation of religion through psychology, history, the use of
carbon dating, DNA, etc. and attempting to understand the claims made by religious institutions. I don't see that this is harmful in any way and might shed more positive light on how religion functions in society.

Joe Campbell has stated that we need our myths. They are symbols and reflect what values society holds. They can be educative in that they prescribe productive ways to live. Myths need to be examined.

In this way, religion and science can find a rapprochement. Building an artificial barrier between the two doesn't help.

if the leading scientists of the world explored religion through their inductive methods,
we might learn ways to govern ourselves and outlaw war.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 06:06 PM

Mrrzy:

Replicability as a criterion has to be adjusted to the nature of the field. While molecules are pretty apathetic and will blindly perform the same way every time they are subjected to the same conditions this is not the case for sentient consciousness capable of originating decisions instead of just reacting. Given that deep and important difference, the onyl way you can acheive replicability is in the most general of terms. Furthermore although every complex compound molecule of the same parameters will behave exactly the same way and will be found to have exacvtly the same components, two beings will be found to have an entirely different set of decisions across their long history, and with each different decision a different set of consequences up to which they either did or did not step. Thgis does not mean you cannot isolate variables and predict large-scale phenomena, but it sure means that a blind quest for absolute replicability in human thought is a loser's game from the get-go.

Because of this the goals and rules of evolving a body of scientific knowledge about this arena has to be thought through carefully in advance, or it will fail the way Freud's projections failed to make a uniform model of thought,.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 06:52 PM

Frank,

One of the big problems that anti-religionists have is the notion of "enabling". The broad stroke is that all religionists are enabling fundamentalism.

Well, yes...... I can see how people could think in that way.

But for me, my care and concern in that area boils down to whether to change a thing by tearing it all down to the ground, or by building upon and strengthening what is good to create the kind of sustainable strength that real change entails-- this from a not-so-long-ago, effective-in-my-small-milieu social-change person. In the varied roles I played, I learned how to work from the inside and how that can have a powerful level of effectiveness built on alliance rather than an adversarial dynamic-- to put relationship-building at the center of any real goals, no matter the effort or setting.

I that think the cry for change from the outside-- agitating and protesting-- also is necessary for such an effort to succeed--- I had lunch today working on that very thing-- but my own effectiveness is far more efficient from the inside, from close inside-- from a position of real love for the person and for the good they adhere to. That just happens to be where I can do something, where maybe others can't. (It takes a village to impeach an idiot.)

Not to mention that such an approach is Bibbical (my word to maintain a lighter tone).... The short course there is that to make changes, in the broken parts of the system to which I belong, requires my highest use OF that system FOR that system, which sometimes means traveling slowly enough to maintain a clue what I am doing, how, and why. It's not a recipe.... it's thought and improvisation at every turn, using the tools inherent in the system.

I think all professional fields have this in common, if you are inside the field.

I think the education system is a parallel people sometimes think more clearly about (and sometimes more painfully about)-- but when I was working to change THAT system, I was working from the inside, and I do not mean the PTA.... I had a unique job where that WAS my job description, basically, as well as the development of leadership to support the process of change. My lunch partner today asked me how I could have left "all that" to enter the arena of ministry; he'd had a pretty cool social-change job as well, during a lull in his priestly career.... We both felt that IN the ministry there were many more opportunitites to participate in far-reacing change efforts; but then as you have acknowledged, the Episicopals can be pretty cool folks. :~)


I took a quick look or two at the "Secularist" thread BTW-- scary, scary, scary. I see more clearly now (no pretense of politeness in THAT thread) why there are some folks I just will not talk about this stuff with anymore, here, and I very much apprecuiate your post awhile back that answering to demands for my "responsibility to change the fundie world" is up to me.... it has to do, partly, with a smart sensse I am trying to develp of how to prioritize my time. Wrestling with people in the area of their greatest rigidities holds no attraction for me when it comes to time to spend. Fortunately the Ridid Right is wide open in OTHER areas of their personalities-- much more open than some of the rabid anti-religionists around here. I wish those folk would read you posts sometime, and try to take them in... Very ironic, but you speak for my "view" far more articulately than I have managed to do just yet.

I learn a lot from our little dialog-inside-a-dialog, Frank, and I thank you for your time and care in it. From trying to understand your posts from your view, to thinking how to cast my responses, there is a lot to learn.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 07:25 PM

And BTW/PS, the negativity some folks around here love to focus on makes it harder, not easier, to do the change work I do..... the change some of them say they want to see is impeded, not helped, by the trash talk.

I'd love to post sometime what I could use some help with, but I know what would happen..... it's too bad, because I can be a pretty helpful ally if anyone REALLY wants to change a fundie's mindset. Sad thing is, actually TRYING it would ruin the pity-party some folks prefer to have!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: goatfell
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 07:31 PM

i forgot to add to my statement TROLL ALERT (GUEST ED) IS A TROLL.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 09:14 PM

Nonetheless, if it can't be replicated, it's not evidence of anything.

And it is the enabling part that has me asking, which hasn't been answered yet, why should I "respect" (I've explained what I meant enough times...) people's deliberate ignorance/denial of reality?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 09:25 PM

Especially when they want you to pay for it.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 09:54 PM

Mrrzy,

What is with the "should?" It is your choice and your responsibility. It is "could."

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 10:05 PM

The "should" comes from all the people, here and elsewhere, who think that you *should* respect people's beliefs. I don't see why I should, when those beliefs contradict, or deny, reality. So often I don't... but then I'm called "intolerant" or worse. My responsibility, especially to my children, should be (in my mind) to teach them not to respect such, um, things.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 11:02 PM

Question for Little Hawk: When does an icon become a god, and did you create an icon so powerful that it functions as a god?

As a model for your consideration-- because Shatnerism is too scary to contemplate right off, and you know it-- I recommend you study the model presented by FSMism (Pastafarians).

I submit that there IS at least one God, the FSM who is worshipped by Pastafarians.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 12:02 AM

Mrrzy - Well, lack of respect is one indication of intolerance. Part of being responsible for the choice to disrespect is acknowledging and owning the attendant intolerance.   We all have things we choose not to tolerate, for any number of reasons and rationales. Lack of respect is one of those reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Barney
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 01:38 AM

Why would anyone in their right mind believe in something for which there has never been the slightest shred of evidence? Religious belief is irrational and delusional. Filling impressionable young minds with this rubbish is child abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 02:19 AM

Because one person or many people have never seen evidence of something...whatever it is...does not mean it does not exist. Hence the wide diversity of beliefs or unbeliefs. Seeking the truth by personal study is perhaps the best way forward...or for some perhaps doing nothing and believing in nothing. We all have a choice.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Barney
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 12:58 PM

In an ideal world we would all have a choice, but in this one many of us don't. Nor do we all get the chance for 'seeking the truth by personal study'; only the more fortunate of us get that privilege, and many of those waste it.

There is no such thing as an unbelief, although the word was used in some mediaeval Germanic dialects to describe particularly troublesome poultry.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 01:48 PM

And if you have no replicable evidence, you have no EVIDENCE. Look it up.

Look what up, Mrrz?

I submit for reflection here that your statement doesn't answer my point about the difference between the nature of the systems under consideration.

Consider, for extrapolation, the difference between living systems and non-living chemical or particle systems. If you abrade a moouse's flesh, it starts regenerating, normally. If you shave a millimeter off an aluminum crystal, it does not, usually.

Clearly there is a fundamental difference between the system behaviors. Two mice, dropped into exactly the same pot of acid, will not behave in exactly the same way, although you could say they both squirm and call that a replication of behaviour if you wanted to. Arguments of complexity aside for the moment.

IF you take two minds and show them exactly the same image of colors, they will come up with wildly different responses ranging from highly aesthetic and pleasurable down to glumly apathetic indifference. And if you repeat the process, there may two more comp0letely unique responses.

Thought is not matter. That's the bottom line. Trying to measure thought with the tools of matter is like trying to measure the volume of the ocean's water with a schoolboy's ruler.

So where are you going to get a standard of replicability out of this? The social scietists settle for probabilities and per centage of opinions one way or another, for example, and there's some use to that system in measuring mass-agreement zones of thought, but it won't get you far in measuring the outer bounds of individual potential to see and know and create.

BTW, Barney, a belief in the not-ness of something certainly does exist, event hough it seems to be a two-step process of creating the belief in somethign and then painting it black! :D

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 02:31 PM

Frank Hamilton, you are a fine, perhaps even great musician. and a whole bunch of other wonderful things too, but you are way over your head here--

When you advocate a "scientific" evaluation of religion, you are opening the door to demands for a religious evalation of science, which is exactly the problem that "Squawkin' Dawkins" and company are worried about in the first place.

And the sad fact is that "religion" looks better when held up to the light of science, than science looks when held up to the light of religion--

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 02:45 PM

Actually, religion looks pretty stupid when viewed through the light of science, and you can't view science through the light of religion because religion is blind and mindless.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 02:48 PM

When you advocate a "scientific" evaluation of religion, you are opening the door to demands for a religious evalation of science,

Not really; in a faith tradition that embraces rational thought, certainly a consideration of science's strengths and shortcomings happens..... it is possible, you know, to look squarely at BOTH science and faith and see things that do not necessarily have to be consdiered on opposition to one another. We have these big old minds that can handle the complexity needed for that kind of thoughtful regard of different, differing, or even diverging viewpoints.

I think chats around fire rings many centuries ago probably involved just that sort of wondering (and that broad a range of wondering), because it's a human tendency to wonder about it all-- the big picture, the things that seem obviously related, the things that appear not to be related, the detail level....

We can handle that, and more.

I don't understand why people-- religious or non-religious-- are afraid to open the doors to thinking or asking about things.... I CAN understand why folks sometimes assume that certain tradtions may inhibit the opening of the doors, but I would think that all doors that can be opened would inform the subject.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 03:52 PM

Tell ya what. Let's NOT have a scientific assessment of religion, since religion by at least one definition is a codification of beliefs and practices and moral codes and all kinds of other stuff science can't address heuristically, by its nature.

But what we _could_ have is a scientific address to fundamental questions about the spirit -- disdaining all doctrine, examining all reported experiences, and seeing if there was such a thing as a way to measure the beast, or detect its impact. IS the human beast a meat organism occasionaly generating an electromagnetic rush called a spiritual experience, or a spiritual entitiy occasionally getting trapped in a meat rush called a physical body? Does "meat" do aesthetics and insight? If there is a difference, what keeps the two bound together in individual natures?

It would not be easy, because, by its nature, it would streeetch the working framework of science as we have known it, but it would be interestin'.



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Barney
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 04:46 PM

So which religion is right?

I'll leave you all to ponder that while I pop off and make a list of my non-beliefs...

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 05:00 PM

BArney:

Bring another stick back with you to stir the anthill.

You know damn well that none of Earth's religions are "right".


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 05:12 PM

I know very little about the B'hai faith (I'm not even sure I'm spelling it correctly), but what I do know is that it teaches that ALL earthly religions are equally valid, with the corallary, of course, that they're all equally mistaken in so very many of the particulars that they preach.

What does that leave?

Well, one can still believe that a transcendant spiritual reality exists, and that it behooves all of us to transcend ego and love our neighbor as ourselves.

Do we really need to be sure of much more than that?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 05:17 PM

I meant look up Evidence.

And replicability is not a useful concept without focus - if you show people the same wavelength of light, yes, they will have different experiences of it. That isn't replicating. If you show one person a wavelength, and then show the same person the same wavelength, that is replicating. And you may yet get different experiences based upon context, or how they are feeling at the time. What does that tell you about "the difference between the nature of the systems under consideration" - ? Jack all - if you have different systems, studying one and then the other is not replicating the first study, it's studying something else. So your question doesn't make sense.

However, it is quite possible to study thought in science. You just have to focus in, so that what your study -note, not your results necessarily- IS replicable. That way, IF you get the same results, you HAVE evidence for something - whatever thing you were studying.
For instance, look at functional MRI studies, reaction-time studies, and other "hard" science in psychology, neuropsychology, psycholinguistics, etc. We are learning a whole lot about thought by studying it. We wouldn't if we just tried to believe in it, or pray about it, or look in ancient novels about it.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Barney
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 05:58 PM

"BArney:
Bring another stick back with you to stir the anthill.
You know damn well that none of Earth's religions are "right".
A"

My point exactly - it's not possible, whereas it's perfectly possible for them all to be wrong.

Or then again, maybe one of them is right, and the rest are wrong..

Whoops :-)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 06:28 PM

Well, Mrrz, with all due respect I don't think you have answered my points, and I feel your remarks about "believe in" and reading old novels, and such is just persiflage with no bearing at all n anything I said. I am not going to repeat myself, but I am more than willing to agree to disagree or at least leave the differences where they stand.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 08:43 PM

My comment was actually intended to be a droll and slightly pointed reminder that Science and Technology have been used to wreck havoc of an almost unimaginable scale on our human race.

If they wanted to, the religious community could ask some fairly penetrating questions about the overall benefit of many scientific "achievements" to the welfare of humankind. Lucky for us, they don't do that very often.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 09:18 PM

My comment was actually intended...

Glad to hear it-- I thought you'd lost your mind.

The discussions about science I've been involved in, in religious life, have tended to fall into the category of Ethical Theology and not been science-bashing at all. Not all religious discussion of opposers' views is oppositional in response; certainly in Anglican theology there is usually the expectation to seek the via media in that realm as well as in more strictly-doctrinal issues for which we are better known.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 09:33 PM

Ted,

Almost all technologies are by nature two-edged swords, from wood-carving to fission. There's no doubt, in my mind anyway, that as a species we have been way cleverer than we have been good.

Religions looking at science, aside from discussing the ethical implications as they align with moral codes held to be religious in origin, wouldn't have a lot to say, unless they start on a drumbeat (prophylactics are he spawn of Satan) in some way. Well, I know the Amish have certain decrees, also. But it's either observe it or condemn it. Oddly enough I don't know of any instance where technology has been forwarded by some religious input. And why should it -- it's the old "render unto Caesar", which surely includes technological advantages in Caesar's markets.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Neil D
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 10:29 PM

This thread has become God-like in its profundity, if not its enormity. All praise to The Mighty Thread and hail Troll its procreator!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 10:36 PM

...if only they didn't grovel and mumble so much.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 10:08 AM

Ismailism actually regards science as a primary tool for understanding the intelligible universe. The Aga Khan Foundation runs more than 300 schools in some of the more interesting parts of the world, with the purpose of creating a foundation for economic and technological development.

A special priority in these schools is to provide equal educational opportunities for female students--which should give those of you who think that Shia Islam is sexist something to think about on these, the longest nights of winter.

And, now that I think about it, I wonder how many of the ranters and ravers in this thread learned what they know about science (which, in some cases, seems not to be much) at an Institution of Higher Learning that was founded by Methodists, or Baptists, or Presbyterians, or those dreaded Calvinists, or even worse, actual Catholics?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 10:31 AM

I differentiate between "religious input" and actions taken by people who are also religious. Now that I think of it, there is one mandate to glorifiy the owrks of man to God -- or do I have that backwards? ANyway, innovating has always been a highly individual creation even when teams or cultural groups are providing the matrix.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 02:28 PM

GEtting back to the issue of living versus non-living systems, and scientific rigor, here is an interesting scientific report that concludes that even fruit-flies cannot have their behaviour accounted for by simple stumulus response; but that they seem to include an "initiator" in their neural system which adds spontaneity.

The report is in this video from researchers at the Free University in Berlin and like all good research opens more question than it answers.

But is germane to the up-thread discussion about scientific analsyis of thought, even if only in fruit-flies.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 03:01 PM

Until somebody finds a way to observe thoughts, it will be very difficult to subject them to scientific rigors. And there are some people who think that thoughts are like the Yeti--meaning that, without reliable, documentable observations, they don't really exist.

Without a valid and replicable research model, Descartes's idea that "I think therefore I am" is just an unprovable opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 04:43 PM

Of course there are Yeti. We elected one to serve as vice president in 2004.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 04:54 PM

Well, it seems to me that only those thing that people are against qualify for demands that they be rigorously proved scientifically. Can't see thought, so can't "prove" thought-- but no one is so anti-thought that they want to subject that to scientific proof before they'll even talk about it or tolerate OTHERS talking about it.

Only where there is extreme prejudice (and a mind already closed to possibilities) is the demand for proof before discussion.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 05:35 PM

Maybe we can't *SEE* thought, but we can get understandable responses to whatever you want to call our awareness by making noises and making marks on paper....and we can attach electrodes to the head and watch needles jump when certain stimuli are introduced.

These are indications...predictable and measurable in certain ways. Now you may call the underlying causes 'thought' or just call 'em electro-chemical reactions, but we DO stuff with them. Most supposed paranormal and religious 'entities' can't be 'measured' in any truly similar way.

I repeat...we need to quit trying to measure, evaluate and describe them with similar terminology.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 06:02 PM

You can attach electrodes to the head of a cabbage, and you can watch the needle jump, but you still won't know what it's thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 06:10 PM

If you show the cabbage a picture of an erotic carrot, will the needle reading change?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 06:13 PM

A liberal cabbage. or conservative?


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: PoppaGator
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 06:33 PM

More to the point, is the cabbage gay or straight?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 07:10 PM

Apparently, the needle will move if you just think about showing it a picture of a carrot. Click Here if you think I'm kidding

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 07:25 PM

As to your question, PG--that is entirely to do with how straight the carrot is.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 08:19 PM

Oh dear WYSIWYG, please try and distinguish between things and theories about things. Gravity and Thought and the Earth, Sun and Moon and Love and Bacon Sandwiches and the Colour Purple simply exist. They ARE regardless of science or religion. It is only theories about them that need to be proved.

Just because I can't see a Bacon Sandwich at the moment doesn't mean I can't prove they exist. Now I think about it.....

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 10:58 PM

Snail, I'm terribly sorry to have to break this to you, but I have a duty to tell the truth, (Deep Breath)--

Gravity and Thought and the Earth, Sun and Moon and Love and Bacon Sandwiches and The Color Purple don't exist at all--they are merely ideas that we have created with language. The ideas have no meaning beyond the fact that make differentiations that are meaningful to us--they have no relationship to the true nature of these objects at all.

In fact "true nature" and "objects" are also ideas that we have constructed--

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 12:12 AM

Oh, and the old argument about "What if a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it?" or some such thing, has nothing to do with sounds or trees, and is merely a disagreement on the meaning of the word "sound".

In that same way, the discussion in this thread is just a disagreement about the meaning of a whole lot of words.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 07:21 AM

M.Ted

Gravity and Thought and the Earth, Sun and Moon and Love and Gravity and Thought and the Earth, Sun and Moon and Love and Bacon Sandwiches and The Color Purple don't exist at all--they are merely ideas that we have created with language. and The Color Purple don't exist at all--they are merely ideas that we have created with language.

Now you are confusing the names of things with the things themselves. All of these existed before we came up with names for them (with the possible exception of Bacon Sandwiches). I think Genesis says that (with the possible exception of Bacon Sandwiches). My point is that you cannot prove gravity or thought, you can only prove theories of gravity or thought.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 07:25 AM

M.Ted

Oh, and the old argument about "What if a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it?" or some such thing, has nothing to do with sounds or trees, and is merely a disagreement on the meaning of the word "sound".

No it isn't. It's about what you are allowed to infer about an event that you have not observed on the basis of your experience of events that you have observed.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 11:04 AM

You just can't handle the truth, Snail. And it's out there. If you don't believe me, ask around.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 12:10 PM

Snail,

I am reminded of the lines Olde Bill left: more things there are in heaven and earth than in all your philosophy, Horatio. (Paraphrased at no extra charge).

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 01:02 PM

"...the discussion in this thread is just a disagreement about the meaning of a whole lot of words."

well, not 'quite' that narrow, but close. There's even a technical word for aspects of that situation: equivocation. If we don't agree on definition & meaning, we can hardly debate 'reality'.

For a detailed (and convoluted) theory of how the mind does or doesn't create reality, delve into the writings of David Hume. He insists his logic is air-tight,(and many philosophers agree) but admits in a footnote that even he can't usually act as though it is also 'true'.....this footnote is a pretty important point.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:15 PM

Oh well, I tried.

M.Ted, I'm sure you are right that Gravity is just a word that describes an idea that we have created with language...

...but I'm still not going to walk off the top of any tall buildings in the near future.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:23 PM

To be fair, Snail, you are quite right that material space time is real. Gravity is real, and so is light, rain, cold wind and other facts about it.

I think the question M Ted raises, if I may put words in his mouth, is how they are real, and how they come so to be.

Agreement about them provides a lot of their solidity and persistence.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:43 PM

Amos, what didn't I address? Not to ask for repetition, but for clarification.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:49 PM

Well, my question was, how would you define a standard of replicability for studying consciousness?



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 02:14 AM

Snail--We still talk about the sun rising and setting, many hundreds of years after we found out that it doesn't do that--it's an idea that reflects the way we experience it, and is more meaningful to us than what really happens--gravity, is an idea like that, though you'll have to get the details from somebody else on that--

As we speak, It is raining, here, though it may not be raining where you are--but the things that define "raining" to me, are really only a small part of the phenomenon, and probably not the most important part. In fact, as I have gotten older, my understanding of "rain" has changed a lot, though I still get wet the way I always have--

Language is a medium we've created to express ideas, and those ideas embody our experience of things, not their nature.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 02:49 AM

when most nights i am so sick of daily struggle no money toil and anguish
and endure the battle long and hard with wakedness
untill i am so finally tired enough to sleep..

i drift into mysterious dark other world dimension
to enjoy sunset morning daylight bursting thro8gh curtains enduced daft headed nonsense dreamsms..


in that funtastic dream world



i sometimes try so hard to reach out..


but i never see GOD..

i'm friendly enough..

but even though he omnipresent..

..he dont even ever turn up for dream pool side barbie

with bottle of cheap wine and box of party poppers..


why !!!???


..and funnily enough ..


when i wake 4 or 5 hours later to meet the new mid-day

groggy headed and furry mouthed..



I never see him then !!!!



TONIGHT .. i am waiting for a phone call


an elderly relative might survive another night in hospital .. or not..

waiting.............


i begining to think god do exist ..

he must be the mean spirited mudcat mod

who deletes anything i write here that might upset his most intolerant fan boy worship club suck arses..

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 05:53 AM

M.Ted

Language is a medium we've created to express ideas, and those ideas embody our experience of things, not their nature.

Fine, so why are you telling me that I cannot use the word "gravity" to mean the idea that embodies our experience of not floating off the ground?

--gravity, is an idea like that, though you'll have to get the details from somebody else on that--

That could be interpreted as "I don't really know what I'm talking about."

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 07:06 AM

Hang on a minute. Now that I'm more awake...

ideas embody our experience of things

Ideas don't "embody" things; things embody ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 08:04 AM

Snail:

THings may well be the embodiment of ideas, but there aren't many physicists who will buy that. And it would be nice if we knew why we can't change them as quickly as we can change ideas.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 08:41 AM

OK, OK, OK but "ideas embody our experience of things"?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 10:51 AM

Well--concepts do. You can yell "PAIL!!" in a crowded mall, and scores of people hearing you will get slightly different pictures of pails -- longer, shorter, plastic or galvanized -- but the concept for all of them embodies their experience of things we call pails. The more removed from experience language gets, the harder it is to keep it clear and connect with others.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 10:54 AM

I think The Snail is caught in extreme literality. "Embody" and "Incarnate" mean, literally, enfleshed.

The Snail is, therefore, not PC (Poetically Correct).

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 12:14 PM

Snail. since you are pushing the point, here is an illustration of Einstein's view of gravity (lifted from http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/gravity_modern_views.htm)--

>Einstein postulated that the presence of matter distorts the space around it.

>This can be explained by picturing space as a grid of lines. Without matter, space would be a >perfect grid of parallel lines. An object would move in a straight line through space.

>The presence of another mass of matter would distort the lines, drawing some toward it. Thus >a moving object would no longer travel in a straight line. Instead, it would curve toward the >other object, appearing to be attracted to it. What this theory does is says that gravitation—>the attraction of an object toward another—was not caused by the apparent force of gravity >between masses. Instead, it was simply a property of space.

So "gravity", the idea that objects are drawn to the earth, isn't really true, and "gravity" doesn't really exist.   Still, you could have fooled me--and I will continue to behave as if does exist--

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 12:24 PM

The fact that it is simply a property of space does not mean it doesn't exist. Temperature exists, even though it is not caused by caloric fluid, or phlogiston, migrating through the ether. Existence in this sense does not depend on definitions or explanations.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 03:45 PM

You can call a sheep a dog but ya can't make it bark.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 04:29 PM

Hi Susan,

"I don't understand why people-- religious or non-religious-- are afraid to open the doors to thinking or asking about things.... I CAN understand why folks sometimes assume that certain tradtions may inhibit the opening of the doors, but I would think that all doors that can be opened would inform the subject."

I thoroughly agree. This is why I think it would be instructive to question the nature of religion and test it scientifically. I agree that an informed discussion is desirable.
Close-mindedness and vituperation don't shed light on anything.

It's very difficult to talk past one another without directly answering the questions
that are posed. I think thiat the answering of these questions entail a certain respect for the people asking them without name-calling or opinionated denegration of ideas often dismissed without considerable thought.

The rigors of analysis are often avoided by drawing lines in the sand. I maintain that there are many non-believers out there who prefer not to be drawn into the discussion of the existence of God because they see the futility of dealing with rabid opinions. I think that the future will entail an extensive examination of the role of religion and how it impacts on the way a society conducts itself. I can see this as being only useful. Maybe a model of how a society can ethically conduct itself can be revealed.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 04:52 PM

I home the day comes when people/humans can analyze thought itself. Something as basic as that and we really don't know how it comes about.

I don't know for sure that thoughts about G-d are any different than thoughts about the curvature of space or why the colour blue appeals to some folks and not others. I also don't know at what point an idea becomes a conviction or a conviction a belief. That process does occur, and we know it because there are people who die for their beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,JESUS
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 06:45 PM

Ok, Ed. Here I am. Now that that's sorted, there's a whole lot of catching up for you to do. Ready? You can start with reading your Bible from cover to cover. That'll explain most of what I want you to do. And stop ignoring Me. When you get to know Me better, I'll tell you the rest. And get a move on!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 07:19 PM

I maintain that there are many non-believers out there who prefer not to be drawn into the discussion of the existence of God because they see the futility of dealing with rabid opinions.

I think because they assume they will be dealing futilely with rabid opinions.

I've maintained for a long time that the only reasonable way-- the only practical way-- to deal with these subjects is around a campfire, late at night, in a mutually-curious manner with a close or you-want-to-be-close friend. Only real affection bridges the gaps in understanding, and prevents the exchange from becoming something other than whatever the two parties agreed in advance to have.

Hm, reading that back it sounds like I'm describing sex-- GOOD sex that is.... an effective chat about these matters is as private, important, intense, and time-consuming as good sex can be. A LITTLE affection (at the least) makes it even better.

:~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 08:04 PM

M.Ted, I think we may be finally getting back towards the point I was originally trying to make. In your quote, Einstein is not talking about gravity as an observed phenomenon, he is talking about it as a consequence of his theory of relativity. These are two quite separate things. Theories are subject to proof (or disproof), observed phenomena are not.

That is why I objected to WYSYWIG's remark that "Can't see thought, so can't "prove" thought". No, you can't "prove" thought anymore than you can prove gravity or prove apple or prove bacon sandwich but you can prove theories about them. My Theory of Bacon Sandwich awaits publication.

So "gravity", the idea that objects are drawn to the earth, isn't really true, and "gravity" doesn't really exist.   Still, you could have fooled me--and I will continue to behave as if does exist--

Wise decision.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 08:50 PM

That's like saying you can't prove that Rf decreases as 1/d^2. Sure you can't see it. But so what? You can measure it. And if you care to share the fate of those workmen who tried to get warm by standing in front of a microwave antenna, you can even experience it. What's "seeing" got to do with anything other than a relatively narrow segment of the EMF spectrum?


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 09:10 PM

why I objected to WYSYWIG's remark

Actually, Snail, what you did was object to a point not addressed to you, that I had made in response to someone else's point, and you skewed my remark so that you could make a point YOU wanted to make, whatever that was... which you have done in a rather patronizing, argumentitive manner a number of times in this thread. At least that's the way it has seemed to me; this is the same kind of posting that led me to begin to ignore Riginslinger's posts a long time ago.

You may indeed be scientifically correct about the pilpul points you raise, within whatever discussion guidelines you feel are the norm for whatever kind of discussion is your preference; but they miss the mark of what I mean to discuss and my preferred mode of discourse so widely that I am not interested in attempting to look for, much less find, a point of agreement with you. Without a shared point of view from which to begin, it seems to me that rational discourse with you is not a logical expectation.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 11:27 PM

Snail, I've said pretty much what I can to clarify this point--I wish you the best of luck with it. I can vouch for the fact that it is very useful in a variety of settings, from creating music, to cooking, to engaging in negotiations that involve large amounts of money.

I am going to leave the discussion thread for now, partly because I've said what I can to help it along, and partly because it's been taking an inordinate amount of time to reload the thread, as much as five minutes--and what with it being "Winter Holiday Season" and all, I've got other things to do--

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 04:38 AM

Personally, I don't care what gods people believe in so long as they don't try to shove it down my throat as some universal truth. Evangelism is the ultimate arrogance.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 05:25 AM

WYSIWYG, you have tried to use statements about science to further your arguments. Those statements have frequently displayed a profound lack of understanding of how science works and I have, with the best of intentions, tried to explain where you are going wrong. If I have appeared patronising, I apologise. It was never my intention to be so unlike some of your responses which have been dripping with sarcasm.

Riginslinger is openly hostile to religion so I can understand why you find him impossible to engage with. I have said nothing against religion or your beliefs but have merely tried to put you right on matters of science about which I know a fair amount. I am sorry that you are, apparently, unable to tolerate disagreement.

Have a merry Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 05:27 AM

Pit M.Ted has gone. I'd like toknow what the "it" in this sentence is.

I can vouch for the fact that it is very useful in a variety of settings, from creating music, to cooking, to engaging in negotiations that involve large amounts of money.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 06:55 AM

theleveller....you state >>>>>Personally, I don't care what gods people believe in so long as they don't try to shove it down my throat as some universal truth. Evangelism is the ultimate arrogance<<<<
All 'born again' Christians become disciples of Jesus Christ and as such are 'commissioned' by Him to spread the word....how then can you consider that evangelism is the ultimate arrogance?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 08:13 AM

Wal, GS, some might say your very reasoning is arrogant. If one did not particl'y believe in Jesus Christ, then electing oneself His agent might seem a tad pretentious,.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 08:30 AM

Amos, the same way as for studying anything else: you write down how you did it in enough detail that others can repeat your experiment. Remember, replicability is in the methodology at first - and IF there is replication of the results, you have evidence.

So, there are people doing reaction-time work: put people in front of computer screens and time their response to a stimulus. Change the stimuli, watch reaction-time change; you then have evidence for how thinking works if the reaction-time changes are predicted from the stimulus changes.
There are people doing fMRI work: put people in MRI machines with contrast (radioactive) sugars in them, give them things to think about, watch what lights up. If the same place lights up for others given the same tasks, you have evidence for where thinking happens.

And so on.

It really isn't different from studying anything else that appears unquantifyable to the general public... it just takes focus.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 09:08 AM

"All 'born again' Christians become disciples of Jesus Christ and as such are 'commissioned' by Him to spread the word...."

GS...to add to what Amos said, your statement/comment contains a couple of embedded, implictly circular assumptions. One must **ASSUME**, that is, believe...certain things in order to BE 'born again'. Then, they must believe those things and more in order to take on that supposed 'commission' to spread the word. Yes, I know where the Bible says stuff about "become fishers of men"...but I do NOT assume the Bible to BE absolute authority, and even among Christians there are differences of opinion about exactly what the admonition requires of them.
It 'could' mean just setting a good example and answering questions and providing a welcoming church to those who ask...or it could mean going out and actively recruiting and 'witnessing', even when asked not to.

You know that we in the US have a Mormon running for president, and that there is MUCH consternation among many about that 'extra' Book in the Mormon bible. Those who DO believe in the Mormon version assert that you should also..(I have them knock on my door occasionally)..but I'd venture that YOU are quite happy with the King James version, or some close approximation. WHY??? Because you just 'believe' it is best. I also have Jehovah's Witnesses come 'round explaining that "space in Heaven is limited", which I suppose you also reject. WHY??? I am quite sure that YOU would have something to say to anyone who knocked on your door and suggested that THEIR commission to evangelize and 'spread the word' differently is better than yours!

You see, Georgiansilver, any time one group asserts that they have the 'right' way, they will be faced with others who either feel that THEY have the right way, or who feel that no one does.

   I'm sorry, but your 'commission' from Jesus to save my soul means little if I do not previously accept the entire rationale behind it.

The only way I can imagine for us to co-exist is for me to allow you to believe and worship as you please....as long as you do not infringe on my right to NOT accept your particular beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 09:08 AM

"All 'born again' Christians become disciples of Jesus Christ and as such are 'commissioned' by Him to spread the word....how then can you consider that evangelism is the ultimate arrogance?"

Well,you've just demonstrated what I mean. Implying that your beliefs are in some way superior to mine and that you have to convert me is complete and utter arrogance. Respect my beliefs and I'll respect yours - after all, that's what they are - 'beliefs', not hard fact. I've no idea what you mean by 'commissioned'. Are you claiming that god speaks to you? That's not commissioned, that's schizophrenia.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 09:51 AM

Mrrzy:

All well and good. The question arises on the focus and precision required.

Hypothetically, If I take 100 people at random and ask them to recall times when they really felt in communication, or really felt affection, for example, I expect well above 50% would say they felt more cheerful afterwards. From this (if my guess were correct) you could advance some tentative conclusions about the functions involved.

Of course, leaving the response entirely up to the responder to that degree means you are introducing a wild variable in the content of the memories, obviously.   You have some many differences between two people that the replication you describe can only be in the broadest terms.

If you limit yourself to mechanical measures like response time to a flash of light, you get baselines of how well the body and nerves respond to input. Or perhaps the degree to which someone is paying attention. But even though your standard of mechanical replication is higher in the latter case, it seems to me the degree of useful insight is lower. OR, at least, using that standard steers you directly into a presumed model of mechanism, because it accepts mechanical replication as signal and dismisses as noise a large chunk of bandwidth that might have information more telling in seeking a "realistic" or at least workable model.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 10:09 AM

I don't know for sure that thoughts about G-d are any different than thoughts about the curvature of space or why the colour blue appeals to some folks and not others


    Who are these people who don't like the color blue. We must root them out before they destroy the fabric of our society! Or the fabric of our jeans. Or something.... But we must root them out!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 10:12 AM

They are nudists, Neil D, nudists.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 10:58 AM

Blasphemers!! None shall be spared!! Let them feel the wrath of the Almighty Thredz, and repent.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 11:00 AM

If ya pent it right the first time then you don't HAVE to repent.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 11:03 AM

Just wanted to point out that GS (Georgian Silver) is not just a guy who talks the talk--he also walks the walk. HELLO, ya ol' fart. Howzit?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 12:17 PM

Well, sure -- but penting, as a skill, is not being passed down the way it used to be. No-one wants to spent the pence to be an apprentice penter, and apprentice penting leaves you spent anyway.

And if its worth doing over, its worth doing right the second time...right? Right?


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 12:17 PM

Oh, I KNOW that GS..(Mike, I think?) is very honest, committed and giving. He does good works and tries to live his life according to the words he believes in.

(and those nudists who LIKE blue...we sing about them in "Woad".)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 12:24 PM

We tried to reform them, honest. But the minute they saw us turn our backs, and the coast was clear, they gathered around the campfire in the deep woods singing "On the Woad Again"....




A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 12:26 PM

And the ones with blue tongues...they're the ones who were wringing their hands and moaning "Oh, woad is mead!"

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 12:46 PM

They're nudists?!?!?!
    Well, thats all right then. Carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 12:54 PM

Of course, any nudists around here would've turned blue by now.
I can forgive them not liking blue....as a skin color.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 01:21 PM

Peace...thank you for that great vote of confidence...unfortunately, as with all Christians..I make mistakes...I get it wrong and can't always put things right afterwards. Living the life is impossible, but trying to isn't.
Thanks and best wishes. Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,JESUS
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 01:30 PM

Well here I am and folks just keep on ignoring Me and talking about Me in third person as if I didn't exist!

All these folks demanding 'proof' of My existence! They never specify what kind of proof exactly would satisfy them. The fact that I'm here addressing you directly doesn't seem to make any difference. What then, o non-believers, is the proof you demand in order to believe I exist? Just list your criteria and we'll get on with it.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 01:44 PM

well, gee...you could appear next Summer at my local swimming pool and walk on the water. And I have whole list of 'healing' that needs to be done. You want ALL of my list?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 01:46 PM

and if you were really clever you could get post #600 before I do.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 01:46 PM

lots OF HEALING!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 02:03 PM

I came back, chiefly to stand up for GeorgianSilver, whose life to date it a pretty good testiment to the healing and beneficial effects of applied Christianity. And while I am at it I should say something about WYSIWYG, whose life is committed to giving to those in physical, spiritual, and emotional needs of others, as a testament of her faith.

For Christians, this is what it's about--finding in faith the strength to heal oneself, and finding in faith the strength to help others.

Merry Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 02:07 PM

As long as it makes you feel good!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,JESUS
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 02:14 PM

Is that all? I thought for a moment there I'd be asked to squeeze into a test tube or submit to being prodded and poked as if I were to be crucified all over again, this time in the name of science!

Healing? No problem. But you both know how it works. "First seek the kingdom of God and all these things will be provided unto you" (see Matthew 6:25-34) Ready to do that? And not everything you wish for is actually good for you or will bring you the happiness you think it will. So some things God the Father, who knows you better than you know yourself, will not be giving you.

As for walking on water, been there, done that. And it was for a very specific reason and for a very specific set of people - the Apostles. Go and check it out. I did lots of other stuff as well, the blind walked, the deaf heard, lepers got well. And some people believed Me back then while others - even ones who saw it with their own eyes - called Me a blasphemer! I ask of you! My bet is if I were to do the same stuff again I'd get the same results. Some people's heads are so full of 'facts' that they will never be able to see Me.

If I were to walk on your pool and be visible to many people at once it would also mean it would be My second coming (you can read about it in the Gospels). I'd better warn you though, when that happens, you'd better be ready, as it'll decide your future once and for all. Are you still sure you're ready to face Me? I cannot reveal the time or the day (check what the Gospels say about that as well - God the Father will be deciding that] and 'it's not given for man to know'. When it happens, it happens. I'd just advise being ready. We have been dropping some rather heavy hints of late though, for those with eyes to see them.

If you want your wished granted, first discover what God the Father's plan is for you. You can start doing this by reading the Bible (I've put most of it down in there) and call on Me personally and sincerely to come into your life. Don't knock it till you've tried it. Your wishes will be granted as long as they are in line with God's plan for you. Don't expect to get just any old thing you ask for. Would you hand your toddler a vat of sulphuric acid just because they insisted on having it and thought it'd make them the happiest toddler in the world? Didn't think so. Well then, if "you, who are evil, know how to give your children good gifts, so too the Father in heaven knows how to give good gifts to those who ask Him". Here's a tip - anything We ask you to do in the Bible is also a Promise. If We asked you to do it and didn't provide you with the means, We'd look a bit silly, wouldn't We? Here's another tip if you're asking Us for something - see Matthew 6:19-24

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 02:17 PM

Guest Jesus, lift my flu, wouldja? If you do it ten minutes, I will endorse you in every thread I post to for the next ten days.

If you do it in half-an-hour, I'll endorse you for five days.

An hour, 2.5 days.

Otherwise, it's Harvey the Rabbit for you, pal.


;>)

GS: You and I comne from different poles, belief wise; but as you seek right action guided by good principles, you are OK in my book.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 02:20 PM

Hey Guest Jesus, that Aramaic-to-English spellchecker's a bitch, isn't it? Thanks for letting it have free will, though.

Nice to see You again. Say hi to Dad for me,

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 02:24 PM

Well, I am following Luke 22:36...

36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.



I've got my sword. Getting a little cold, though.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 03:22 PM

Well, my son's been very disobedient so, like its says in Deuteronomy, I'm going to take him to the edge of the village and stone him to death. That'll teach him.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 03:25 PM

To paraphrase there's a quote { and misquote } for every purpose under heaven. Like - "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone....."

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 03:35 PM

Here we have a hooman beeink who not only BELIEVES in JEsus, he posts as him, and uses that little sleight of post to suddenly impose a whole belief system about the universe, moral strictures, unlimited personal authority, the right to claim miraculous powers without evidence, and personal imortality of the sort that would have made Ponce de Leon cream in his tin suit.

Gotta tell ya, it's about as impressive as a full-blown ritual curse from a Juju man in full costume.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 03:58 PM

Isn't there a line in the Bible about "graven images"? Ah, yes...so there is. I wouldn't be surprised if impersonating a Savior might fall into that class. Not even a good job of it, what with all the disclaimers. "Oh, I already did THAT!" "Can't do THAT until **IT'S TIME** for 2nd coming."
"You can start doing this by reading the Bible ..." *tsk*, that's the very authority some of us are questioning! You want me to read it again? I tried to explain to some door-knockers awhile back that if I am not convinced that the bible IS final authority, how will more verses from it assure me?

*sigh* sorry, JesusTroll, but you guys just don't get it. Asking NON-believers to "accept, in order to believe" is a circular argument!. There are reasons why we doubt, and pretty good reasons, too. In order to overcome sincere, thoughtful doubters, you will need something beyond just "read the bible and call on Me personally and sincerely to come into your life." That's an emotional appeal, not the logical & fact-filled one it would take.

Now...could you do us a favor and NOT preach in a forum not suited for that sort of thing? There are a number of good, committed Christians here who have worked out a better way to 'witness'.

thankyouverymuch

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 05:31 PM

Flu's still lingering on, amigo. You're rabbit-fur.



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 06:22 PM

There are a number of good, committed Christians here who have worked out a better way to 'witness'.

Friends, bear with me for a moment. I want to try to relate something I was thinking about earlier, in terms both non-Christians and Christians can relate to, that goes right to that point.

It's about witnessing. First, I'll commit my usual me-first sin of not looking up the Bible verses about sharing the Gospel, which verses many people use to justify the kind of unappreciated proselytizing so many people think is the norm. Georgiansilver is correct that part of the faith is the expectation of sharing it with others, but evangelization-by-words is NOTNOTNOT the only form in which we are expected to do that, and for many, it's the LAST thing they ought to try!

Fulfilling the expectation varies according to the spiritual gifts of the believer-- I, for instance, am a terrible evangelizer-by-words, whereas my good friend and band-founder Ed is GREAT at it with just the light touch that lets the uninterested shrug it off with a friendly grin. He can walk up to a perfect stranger-- seen it happen-- and strike up a non-judgmental, inoffensive chat about church, Jesus, salvation, the whole magilla. I've SEEN him do this-- and he never offends even those who you would think would be royally pissed off. It's just his gift. Mine, as MTed mistakenly credits me upthread, is a different gift, maybe the gift of loving openly and well and warmly, or helping in a time of need. Ed's a nice guy, but that's not his gift-- he'll listen caringly for about a minute and then out come the jokes, because humor is another one of his gifts.

THe POINT about sharing the faith in a way that is not offensive is to be entirely unconcerned about the fate of the person to whom you're "witnessing"... to be so full of love for the Lord you follow, that you are not at all focused on controlling, converting, saving, or upsetting the person who does not want any part of a religion that victimizes them.

THAT is the kind of sharing I understand that I am called to-- passing along what has been given to me-- of love, resources, understanding, whatever-- to just give it away without a thought for reward. "I'm being nice to you because Jesus said I had to" is NOTNOTNOT what we are called to embody. "I'm being nice to you because I'm so full of love that it flows out of me" is a different matter.

On the infrequent occasions when I meet this standard, my motives are seldom questioned. People who know me from Mudcat think I learned it in church-- I didn't. I learned it in the most radical, secularly-humanist community for world change that I've ever run across. I direct it now with the later, Biblical understandings I'm gaining since turning toward faith about 17 years ago. But I didn't wait until then to love the dickens out of people who seemed like they'd benefit from a warmth that is not so hard to extend if I am not worrying about what SUSAN needs or wants for them or from them.

And if you love people that way, and they need to know where it comes from, THEY WILL ASK. There is a lot of Scripture supporting that approach as well-- the idea that a heart not ready for the Word will not accept it. And I urge my believing friends to look at THAT side of Scripture if they really want to understand what sharing their faith means, for them.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 06:25 PM

Sounds like the Real Deal, Wyzzy....



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 06:33 PM

And people who are witnessing in the way folks find so rude are often actually just not mature in their faith yet, and are trying to do what they understand they're supposed to do-- they are NOTNOTNOT, most of the time, trying to repeat whatever nasty, wrong thing was done to others in childhood by mixed-up adults mixed with a twisted sense of faith. They are NOTNOTNOT trying to be Roman soldiers oppressing a pagan culture, etc.-- they just need a hand understanding some of the trickier parts of that huge Book.

Just refer them to me for that guidance, and get back to enjoying them as musicians, fellow dog/cat lovers, gourmands, Onion-readers, or whatever other commnality drew you to them in the first place. That's Part Two of my day's reflections-- that we get along around here SO WELL, in so many areas-- WHY let this one topic make YOU act as much like an idiot as THEM when religion comes up? (Take whichever role as YOU and THEM that fits)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 08:25 PM

Whereas that one does not...



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 08:44 PM

That's well said, Susan. About like I gathered from our talks and meeting. *smile*....but I didn't want to attempt to phrase it for you.

Whenever someone's inner convictions direct them to make the world a better place and to love & respect others for what they are, it makes little difference to me whether they get their inspiration from Jesus, Kant, or Great Grandma Jones.....or from Mammy Yokum, who said, "Good is better'n Evil 'cause it's nicer"

And, when *I* attempt to do good and love my fellow man (gender irrelevant), I'd just as soon not be 2nd guessed as to what my motivation is, nor what reward I ought to expect. IF there is a God who cares whether I believe in him, he & I can discuss that when the time comes. I'll present my case and see what happens. If he IS all-knowing, I am not concerned about eternity.

If there is no God waiting to 'judge' any of us, then it will make little difference. I'm willing to take my chances. And in the meantime, I will try to live a life that makes religious folks who don't know me 'think' that I'm one of 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 10:39 PM

Ok you guys, you wised up to me pretty quick, and I ain't no Troll!! I don't want to risk blasphemy so I'll post from now on under my mudcat handle! Susan – well spotted for the spelling mistakes!

I resisted posting to this thread for over 600 posts, but finally it got the better of me!

I was trying to make a point – what if Jesus walked up to you or spoke to you directly, if you were a non-believer, what would happen?

I think the whole discussion can be boiled down to two principle points – 1) can we find any proof of Jesus' existence (and what would constitute such proof)? And 2) if you had to accept that Jesus and God existed and were who it is claimed, what effect would this have on your life?

So Jesus addresses you through posts on a forum, what happens? Well, as you (correctly, in this case) suspected, it was an imposter (mea culpa). But what I posted is true as far as He is concerned, these are the kinds of promises He makes and things He asks us to do (as believers will testify). So, what if it had actually been Jesus making those posts? The answer, as I suspected, is that it wouldn't have made any difference. The posts would have been dismissed as an imposter. If Jesus spoke to you directly, it is dismissed as the early onset of mental illness – schizophrenia, as 'theleveller' put it in his / her post.

So the 'scientific' proof demanded of poor Jesus was just to stroll across a pool and appear in person – party tricks, in other words. But if He appeared to one person, it would be dismissed as a hallucination. And even if that person believed, the next person would demand the same personal proof. If He appeared to many people the non-believers would say it was a mass hallucination (and would no longer be faith).

So no matter how hard Jesus tries to get through to some people, they will always find a way to rationalise away the experience – though their rationalisations might not in fact be correct. They might even be inversely guilty of that old 'sin' anthropologists accuse our ancestors of – rationalising every clap of thunder or crop failure on sprites and gods.

But if I dare say it, those of you demanding some rational, scientific proof are being a tad un-scientific in your approach. A scientist does not start out on the premise that something does not exist and 'rationalise' away all evidence s/he finds, when those rationalisations are really suppositions (how do we know it IS a mass hallucination/ schizophrenia/ conjuror's tricks and not something else? We don't!) with no evidence to back them up. A scientist sets out with an OPEN mind on the theory to gather what evidence he can, make the observations and do the experiments.

We are talking about something beyond the phsyical, something outside the realm of what empirical science can measure (and we've had that part of the discussion before). Yet we can still apply the scientific method though the evidence we will find may be different to the kind of quantifiable / empirical data generally looked for by the physical sciences. Afterall there is no empirical scientific way of establishing what constitutes a well-written English essay, but we can find common consensus on such an essay when we find it.

I would suggest by starting with the evidence:

1)        the Bible contains most of what believers claim about God and Jesus. There are good sound arguments to accept it as an accurate record and account especially the particular area that concerns this thread, that on the nature of Jesus. The four gospels couldn't be more clearly written (I recommend the New International Version if you find all those Thees and Thous off-putting).

2)        Archaeological evidence to back up some of the historical details (e.g the census as recorded in Luke).

For points one and two above, may I recommend an excellent book – "Why Y2K – what the millenium is really about" by John Blanchard ISBN 0 85234 433 3 [I just visited the amazon.co.uk home site and found 69 copies of this book available from as little as 1p each]

3)        the experiences of millions of Christians past & present. Some, long dead, like St.Augstine, St.Paul and so on, have left us written testimonies. But speak to any living Christian who is serious about his / her religion (and there are a few on mudcat already) and we can tell you our own personal experiences. A striking form of evidence for me is the amazing power of God to transform people's lives. Some non-believers might have formed the opinion that Christians think of themselves as being rather better than everyone else (the supposed self-righteous attitude that non-believers find so annoying). The ironic thing (for me anyway, and I'd be interested in knowing if other believrs have had the same experience) is that the closer I get to God in my efforts, the more conscious I am of my sins. It's as if the more His light shines on me the more it reveals my defects. The good thing is that while it's embarrasing, it also makes me want to work on them. It was years ago, when I wasn't a believer, that I felt alright with myself, as in "I'm basically a good person, I don't need to change" But back then there was no spotlight on me. Then there's the surprising ways in which Jesus acts in your life when you grow in faith. You might approach Him with rational intellect, but sometimes you need just to trust Him and have faith, and it has to come from the heart as well as the head:

Bill D, you asked for 600 dollars. By way of one example, I have had actual experience of asking Jesus to take care of someone who owed me money I badly needed. I had been chasing after this guy for ages trying to get my money. He was always out, unavailable, as was my money. Then one day I said 'right, Jesus, I'm not worrying about this anymore, I'm leaving it to you". I had also lost my bicycle the day before and had given up hope of finding it. Afterall, I had left it unlocked in town. Now, the very next morning at work I was about to lift the phone to call this guy about my money when I remembered what I had said the day before and put the phone back down (faith). Less than 10 seconds later – and I am not exaggerating – the guy who owed me the money strolled in and said "I owe you some money, so if you follow me over to the bank…" Gobsmacked, I did. But there was more to come. As I walked out of the bank, cash literally in hand, I stopped and stared – there across the road was my bicyle locked to a lampost! It is no exaggeration to say I stood speechless. Every word of this is true.

Now I am sure determined non-believers will say 'coincidence', but it's funny how life fills with such coincidences when you really try to find God. But as i said in my posts as 'Jesus' (sorry, Jesus!) 'seek first the kingdom of God' in otherwords, these things tend to stop happening when you focus on them and forget the main issue (which God does for your own safety and good!!)

Bill D, I understand what you mean by circular argument. But that's the thing about God. For once you have to let go of intellectual prejudice (and I mean that in the original sense, not in any un-charitable way) and have faith. That proves the major stumbling block for many people, and not surprisingly. There are good rational reasons to believe Jesus is who He says (said) He is. But to experience this directly usually requires that we drop our scepticism first. Few of us receive Paul – Saul type conversions. But the spirit of God does reach us in the oddest ways. That might be one reason why many Christians have had dark pasts, we found God in moments of crisis when our own agnsotic hedonism had messed us up as far as we could go, and in our desperation we cried out to God, and found Him waiting. And I speak from personal experience. Without that crisis we might never have found God and just drifted along (un)comfortably in our lives. And once you make the leap, the oddest things do happen! But it has to come from the heart, which is why the biggest enemy is often logic, vying for first place with pride (the first of the deadly sins, and the cause of Lucifer's downfall – he wanted to be equal to God 'no God's going to tell ME what to do!") As I said, don't knock it until you've really tried it. And be prepared to put in some effort and be patient. That's why I can't help a wry smile when people say 'Christianity is a cop-out so people don't have to think' The truth is, it's VERY demanding – physically, emotionally and intellectually - and one reason some people avoid it altogether.

There is a lot of the above kinds of evidence to make a pretty compelling argument, but it's evidence that unfortunately can't be seen for what it is until you get into it.


So once we have evidence, the next step is experiment, Try it for yourself and see if it works as predicted. Those who are serious about their faith finds it DOES work time after time (as demanded in scientific method). The the results are hard to quantify, but you will find a real change coming over your life. You can no more explain it easily to a non-believer than you can explain an acid trip to someone who's never even had a drink (and before you wags start making religion / trip jokes…… ;-)) )

Some of you in previous posts described having a 'Sunday school' experience of religion. That is, religion limited to some classes when you were a child, with child's examples used to explain the concepts (hence a man with a white beard etc.,), and perhaps some services on a Sunday. Not getting any further into it unsurprisingly you dropped it. But that's a bit like someone who learns two cords badly on a guitar, hardly ever practices, not enough even enough to sing a proper and satisfying song; then thinks 'this instrument is useless!' before losing all interest in music. You need to explore it at a much deeper level than that (which is why in previous posts I have suggested that not too much time be spent on comparative religious study apart from the basics: you could end up a jack of-all-religions and master of none. Any of them is a lifetime of study).

The funny thing is, none of this is new. Jesus had exactly the same problem. Just think, 2,000 years ago the Jews in Palestine were lucky enough to have Jesus walking round in their midst! What an incredible opportunity! He did amazing things – he perfomed miracles like changing the water into wine, healing people who were obviously beyond help (deaf, blind, lame and leprous people at a time when there was no real surgery and few effective drugs), drove out demons, raised no less than four people from the dead (Lazarus (John 11:1-16), the widow's son (Luke 7:11), the Jairus' daughter (Luke 8:49) and another one who I forget offhand, not to mention being raised from the dead Himself), He walked on water (thanks Bill!), filled the apostles net's with fish, you name it, He did it. That's a fairly impressive list.

You'd be inclined to think with such an awesome display of power everyone would have believed. But though some did, others wouldn't.

Jesus Himself had lots to say about this:

Just one example - Once He was healing the sick and preaching. People brought Him a lame man to heal. He told the man 'your sins are forgiven' The Pharisees (the priest class of the Jews) were really angry and thought 'how dare you say that?" because only God can forgive sins. Jesus read their thoughts (a remakable feat in itself) and said "why are you thinking these things? Which is easier: to say your sins are forgiven or to say get up and walk? But so that you know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins' he said to the paralysed man 'I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home' Immediately and to everyone's amazement the man – who had had to be lowered through the roof on a stretcher - did just that. (Luke 5:17-26)

There's a lot in this –

The importance of persistence in trying to reach God. The guys who'd brought the lame man were unable to reach Jesus because of the crowds. But such was their faith in His ability to cure the man that they refused to give up and removed part of the roof to get the man to Him. This kind of persistence is well-received by God, just as you might be pleased that someone made a big effort to get in contact with you and didn't give up just because they didn't have your phone number.

Jesus was stating he was God by forgiving sins. The pharisees had a problem with this and so to prove it to them (the same thing people are asking today) He cured the lame man. As He pointed out – it is easier to say 'your sins are forgiven' which result can't be immediately visibly be seen; than to say to a paralytic 'get up and walk' (just try it if you don't believe me).

He might have had it in mind to cure the lame man anyway – afterall, He loves faith and rarely leaves it unrewarded (in my experience and in that of many other Christians I've spoken to). The rewards are not always the things obvious to this world, afterall most people want money etc., But there are no pockets on a shroud and there are other things important in life also.

There's lots lots more on all of this, but I want to keep it short (even by my standards)!

A lot of people on this forum have complained about not wanting to be converted, to having religion 'shoved down their throats' and they have a valid point and I have to hold up my hands as guilty here, too. I think there can be at least three phases after you become a believer, and perhaps they'll help to explain some of that.

In the first phase, it is a Paul – Saul like conversion (even if you are not literally blinded on the road to Damascus). The new convert has often just managed to pull him / herself up from the bottom of the pit, thanks to God (literally). They are so blown away by this fact and the new power in their life that they tend to come on a bit heavy to others. A bit like the way an ex-smoker tends to be a bit bullying in stopping people from smoking. You've just given up the noxious weed and having finally dawned on you just how unhealthy it was and how great you now feel you want everyone else to experience the same thing. The end result is often that you stress them out so much you end up driving them to more smoke. There's enthusiasm but no real charity in the heart.

The second phase is when some of this intensity wears off and you have to manage the mundane details of life with your new faith. If you're not careful you can get sucked down by the mundanity of the world and end up drifting into a mere intellectual appreciation of religion and losing the spirit of it. This is what people often call 'Sunday Christianity' and it turns many non-believers off. It seems an arbitrary set of actions, ceremonies and rules that have no bearing on actual life.

CS Lewis described both phases beautifully in his book 'The Screwtape Letters', well worth a read by both believers and non-believers alike. Non-believers will have a good chuckle at the 'righteous Christian' and the pitfalls that await him, believers will find much good advice.

If you survive this (and the devil tries hard to make sure you don't) you may pass onto a third phase, where your faith informs your life and brings about a real change. You begin to actually live your religion.

When it comes to transmitting your experience of faith to other people the first phase may have you as the annoying anti-smoking zealot, the second phase may have you as someone who simply enjoys a good intellectual argument but lacks charity (St.Paul warned against this in his oft-quoted passage on love: see 1 Corinthians 13 1- 2 especially). The third phase is something different. As Susan said, when some Christians tell you about their faith, it is not to shove it down your throat – you're free to reject it and no-one is burnt at the stake anymore – but because we love you. Sounds corny, but it's true. One reason Jesus is important to us because He is a source of infinite love that we can in turn channel outwards to people we meet.

I think it was St.Augustine who said that the human heart is made by God to be united with God and is never at rest until it succeeds. Those of us who have found that unity realise that phrase to be so true that in our love for others we want to tell them about this in the hope they will share it too. There's no question of compunction, whatever non-believers might think. If there was the slightest hint of that, there wouldn't be any love.

It is interesting that threads on Jesus and faith attract so much attention and so many posts from believers and non-believers alike. If what St.Augustine said wasn't true, I doubt so many posts would be made about something many people say doesn't even exist. Would we bother posting and posting about Santa Claus? I think deep down we all realise there is something of real significance under discussion. And if we believers seem persistent, it is only because we love you. Really, we do (if any believers would like to comment on that feel free, I hope I speak correctly).

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 11:22 PM

Nick:

Anyone can spin a tape from a belief system. It may or may not be actual live communication. Citing authoritarian provenance like the Bible does not add to the credibility. To those of who do NOT subscribe to the program, the Bible is a poetic collection of superstitions, myths and moralizing. I would as soon swear on the Golden Bough, or "Sexual Patterns Among the Trobriand islanders". Once you lift off into Nerland, anything goes, but that doesn't make that first step any more likely.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 11:24 PM

""Sexual Patterns Among the Trobriand islanders"?!?!?!

Where can I get a copy of that book?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 03:40 AM

Well, nickhere, nothing I haven't heard a thousand times before - must be some sort of brainwashing that you godsquad people get. What it boils down to is that it's all a matter of belief. You believe all the god and Jesus stuff from the bible - fine. I don't, I have my own personal beliefs that I don't try to shove down anyone's throat - equally fine. My belief is as valid as yours. You'll never prove the existence or otherwise of god, so what's the point in trying? The whole point of any religion is faith, not certainty. I once heard the Archbishop of Bristol say something to the effect that people with absolute certainty in the existence of god frightened him to death; it was those who were constantly searching that he identified with. Absolute certainty equals absolute arrogance, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 09:46 AM

You actually do shove stuff down people's throats, theleveller--those insults that you spew out so freely--

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 10:26 AM

I was trying to make a point – what if Jesus walked up to you or spoke to you directly, if you were a non-believer, what would happen?

Nickhere,

In point of fact, JESUS decided to whom He would reveal Himself. I doubt He would want you dragging him over to people, insisting that they meet Him. He preferred (according to my reading of the Bible) to be available to them when they were ready to consider Him and His message. Um, have you considered that you may be unintentionally usurping His prerogative?

When you focus more on proving a point than on following Him, the result is that you get people's sensitive backs up. We can never know when the Holy Spirit is preparing someone's heart; intrusive proselytizing and argumentative messages to win points only hardens those hearts further. You may be "right," but being "right" is only the same kind of legalistic thinking Jesus and the early church tried so hard to transcend. (Remember that "clanging gong" passage?)

Another model from the Bible: people who had encountered Jesus told, simply, what they had experienced. Very, very few of them became teachers and preachers.... very few of them used the encounter to tell people what they ought to do. You may not have meant to speak in preaching terms, but when you said this: Bill D.... you have to let go of intellectual prejudice ... and have faith...., you tried to tell a good friend of mine what to do, who had not asked you what to do, whose heart is probably NOT being prepared by the Holy Spirit at this time to hear what you think he needs to hear.


You're a wonderful writer, and next time you feel so tempted to wade in on matters of faith, I'd welcome a PM to me instead. I'd especially like to hear how our Lord has changed your life.... more than how eager you are for Him to change others' lives. (I wish someone had invited ME to such a dialog when I first came here!)

If you feel called to teach and preach, that's a serious vocational exploration to conduct-- not something to enact in threads in a discussion forum. If you are experiencing such a sense of call, I'd encourage you to enter a discernment process to explore that call and see whether that is a direction our Lord would ask you to take. (I have some experience in that area if you'd like some information.)

Blessed Advent,

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 10:31 AM

6:

The original field study of the Trobriand Islanders, by Bronislaw Malinowski, was written up in a book called "The Sexual Life of Savages in North Western Melanesia " which you can order through Amazon.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 10:43 AM

Nickhere,

Oh, sorry-- I had missed this one:

As Susan said, when some Christians tell you about their faith, it is not to shove it down your throat – you're free to reject it and no-one is burnt at the stake anymore – but because we love you.

NONONO, I did not say that, and I do not do that. I do not tell people about Jesus because I love them (as I used to do). I love them enough NOT to tell them until they ASK or unless I am just exchanging information about my own spirituality in a mutually-respectful environment (when I am remembering what I know is correct use of my gifts).

When Jesus is important to us because He is a source of infinite love that we can in turn channel outwards to people we meet, it means we just love them. It does not mean that He wants us to use their vulnerability to insist that they accept the source of the love we pass along, as well as the love itself.

An unemployed pastor friend of mine once told me very excitedly about a vision he'd had, and how he interpreted it. "I saw myself walking up to the door of [church name], and God told me to open that door and walk in." He went on to tell me that this vision meant he was going to be their next pastor. I asked him, "Did you go there, and open that door, and walk in yet to see what He said to you next?" No, he was working on his resume to take along. "Did God tell you to work on the resume?" I asked. "No, but I thought....." was his response. Then the lighbulb went on. He'd run right past the message, to apply it HIS OWN WAY. It might very well have been that there simply was someone who God had wanted him to meet that day that had nothing at all to do with my friend's ambition to return to fulltime pastoring! We laughed together over that one for a long time, and he never did go open that door-- too bad; maybe there was a blessing waiting.

:~) Be careful how you use God's messages, and my posts. They may not mean what you'd like them to mean.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 11:21 AM

"You actually do shove stuff down people's throats, theleveller--those insults that you spew out so freely-- "

Really. Such as?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 11:50 AM

Much is perspective.

Fellow driving around in Montreal. He's late for an interview, important appointment. He says, "Dear G-d, if you help me find a parking space I will attend church every single Sunday for ten years." About 15 seconds later a space opens. The fellow says, "Never mind, I found one."

We do tend to find things in the last place we look for them.

Have a good X-mas season, y'all.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 12:29 PM

I love that story.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 02:22 PM

Proving to someone that God exists is not possible as it is only by 'experiencing' Gods power that we can truly come to know Him.
You may already be thinking that I have made a bold statement there but I make it from my personal experience and would invite you to take a look at my website which I set up some years ago and occasionally update. It tells of how I came to the place I am at now in "Mikes Testimony" and how I had a healing in "Mikes Healing".
I am putting a link to the main page but if you wish to look at those two items, please click on each at the left of the mainpage.
It is just one persons experience and cannot be proved conclusively but at least it may help some people understand my position. You can also view my ugly mug!
We all have choices! Or do we?
My website should you choose to look
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 02:33 PM

Perhaps one should look at Jesus's own words on the subject ( at least according to the Bible:

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 02:42 PM

The Son of Man?

Odd sort of confession, off hand. But I like the style. Thanks, BB.



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 03:14 PM

Either one believes him, and does not look where others tell you to, or one does not believe him, and does not look where others tell you to.

But the act of following ANOTHER to Jesus is clearly against his own words.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 03:40 PM

Like this,--"must be some sort of brainwashing that you godsquad people get."

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 03:41 PM

Amen! I don't know ANYone who is part of ANY group, who likes to be called "you people."

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 03:46 PM

Susan - You people always say that:}

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 03:50 PM

Well, I shoulda knowed better than to get my feet damp in one of these threads again. The temptation to both explain about logic & reason AND to ask that preaching not be done here sometimes overwhelms me. So I should not be surprised at what I get back....more preaching and more circular, convoluted explanations about how seemingly bad logic is not really bad ....if I just "open my heart and accept" the premises it is based on.

I can't say I wasn't aware of how it would go....but I can say I'm always disappointed.

At least I give in less often than I used to.

(And Peace...I DO love that parking place story! It says more about 'us' than most huge books do.)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 03:54 PM

But Wesley, why do you people always say that to those people?    ;-)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 04:03 PM

Peace ..

"We do tend to find things in the last place we look for them.

Have a good X-mas season, y'all."



Those are the exact words Otis told me after he found my wallet.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 04:04 PM

Don - Because all y'all expect it of us. And we hate to disappoint.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 04:17 PM

WHat is the MATTER with you people?



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 05:21 PM

Nickhere,

You said: "But if I dare say it, those of you demanding some rational, scientific proof are being a tad un-scientific in your approach. A scientist does not start out on the premise that something does not exist and 'rationalise' away all evidence s/he finds, when those rationalisations are really suppositions (how do we know it IS a mass hallucination/ schizophrenia/ conjuror's tricks and not something else? We don't!) with no evidence to back them up. A scientist sets out with an OPEN mind on the theory to gather what evidence he can, make the observations and do the experiments."

I maintain that are quite a few non-believers who will keep an open mind and when the experiments yield verifiable evidence, they might change their minds. That hasn't happened yet.

You also say: "1)       the Bible contains most of what believers claim about God and Jesus. There are good sound arguments to accept it as an accurate record and account especially the particular area that concerns this thread, that on the nature of Jesus. The four gospels couldn't be more clearly written (I recommend the New International Version if you find all those Thees and Thous off-putting). "

There are also good reasons to not accept it as being an accurate record. The four gospels are not clearly written and they were not written by the four names attached to them. I recommend you read Bart Ehrman's account on his studies of the bible.
"Misquoting Jesus" (I think that's one title) that is worth reading. The bible has been rewritten countless times and changed radically. First it was written down by scribes who didn't know how to read what they were writing. Not many could read in those days.
Then it was rewritten by clerics with a definite agenda. There are so many radical inconsistencies in the current bible that it would take intensive scholarship to sort them all out. Bart Ehrman has done this.

You say: "If what St.Augustine said wasn't true, I doubt so many posts would be made about something many people say doesn't even exist. Would we bother posting and posting about Santa Claus? "

It becomes quite clear early to most school children that Santa doesn't exist and yet his
mythology continues. Posts are made protesting the use of religion as some kind of
factual data that is used to elect politicians. I have to remind you that atheists and agnostics never make it to public office which is an indictment of what is supposed to be
democracy and a violation of Church and State. Meme (ideas that model genetic replication) can in fact be historical and be perpetuated without their being factual or true.
Ideas about systems of political theory still prevail in spite that many of them such as Nazism or Totalitariansim are no longer useful to society. Just because these ideas are prevalent and handed down from generation to generation does not make them somehow more useful.

I have been exposed to some of CS Lewis and I must say that I am more impressed with
Philip Pullman's "Golden Compass" than I am with tales of Narnia. (I really had a personal
problem with Lewis when I saw his PBS special and he was puffing on a pipe throughout.)

You are welcome to your views and even though I don't share them, I can respect you as a person and answer your assertions not with malice or condemnation but in a spirit of exploration. I think that science can shed a lot of light on this issue if we don't dismiss it
as being outside the area of inquiry.

Respectfully,

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 05:35 PM

Frank - I've also read Ehrmans "Misquoting Jesus" and found it very interesting. I was amazed to find that the transcribers of the books of the bible had to contents with manuscripts that were often written using no capital letters, spaces or punctuation. itwouldbeverymuchliketryingtoreadsomethingwritteninthismanneritwouldbeverydifficulttounderstandtosaytheleastwouldtyouagreeornotidoubthtaticouldmakeheadsortalesofwhatwasbeingsaidmistranslationswouldbeveryeasytomake

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 05:46 PM

Susan "You may not have meant to speak in preaching terms, but when you said this: Bill D.... you have to let go of intellectual prejudice ... and have faith...., you tried to tell a good friend of mine what to do, who had not asked you what to do, whose heart is probably NOT being prepared by the Holy Spirit at this time to hear what you think he needs to hear"

All I can do is offer my apologies to Bill D (apologies, Bill :-) ) if he thought that's what I meant. I was using the 'you' in a general sense, more like the pronoun 'one'. I was thinking more about myself really, but also other people I've known and met (not mudactters) whose 'rationality' has proved a stumbling block to knowing God. Not because God is irrational but because the rationality in vogue today is the product of 18th cent enlightenment that rejects God as lacking empirical earthly basis.

My post above was an attempt to explain something that's very hard to articulate. I was in a church today and a metaphor came to me: I am very interested in architecture and history so I often visit historical buildings. If one goes into any typical renaissance cathedral in Italy one will find a whole smorgasbord of icons, paintings, sculptures and motifs. Most people will probably recognise Christ on the cross, but who is that woman in the painting and why is she holding a wheel? And that guy full of arrows looking sorrowfully into space? And what weird thing is this: four animals clustered around a big stone table - a cow, a lion, something else.... what a weird thing this religion is! One finds oneself surrounded by nice antiques but as obscure as hieroglyphs. One's appreciation of them will probably be artistic (intellectual) but one doesn't connect with them emotionally or on other levels.

But if one comes from a Christian background, and depending on how much one has studied that, one'll recognise the woman with the wheel as St.Catherine and be familiar with how she was executed on that wheel for not renouncing her beliefs, the man full of arrows as St.Sebastian, the four animals as symbols for the writers of the Gosepls. The Cathedral suddenly becoms an open book, alive with meaning it doesn't have if one is not 'tuned' to see it. For me, religion and faith are in some way similar. If one is not tuned to it, one doesn't see the evidence, the meaning or significance of things. It can appear like so much mumbo-jumbo and mindless behaviour. I willingly admit this may not be everyone's experience, but I've been on 'both sides of the fence' and can at least refer to my own experience.

I do apologise if I came across as preaching. That wasn't my intention and I'll have to be more careful if that's how I come across. I suppose I have heard the arguments put about scientific proof, evidence etc., many times and wanted to say 'if that's not working for you, try looking at the picture another way. I can't guarantee you'll see something that makes sense (that's not up to me) but it may be worth a try'

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:15 PM

'Subject: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Ed. - PM
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 05:22 PM

I'm terribly sorry to have to break this to you, and the fact that you make up a fairly large proportion of the world's population makes it hard, but I have a duty to tell the truth.

Deep breath... God does not exist

If anyone can give me decent evidence as to why I'm wrong, I'd like to here it, along with something more substantial than "mysterious ways"'

So, uh, ya gonna answer this or not?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:15 PM

Frank "....factual data that is used to elect politicians. I have to remind you that atheists and agnostics never make it to public office which is an indictment of what is supposed to be democracy and a violation of Church and State"

Governments in my corner of the world are full of them (agnsotics and atheists), that's the way democracy works, people vote for what they like (or perhaps politicians' religion is not an issue here when canvassing for votes; I've seen VERY few politicans here standing ona religious platform). One EU commissioner was forced out of office a few years ago on account of his religious views (despite his promises to vote in a secular way or abstain). He was replaced with someone felt to be more secular.

"I have been exposed to some of CS Lewis and I must say that I am more impressed with
Philip Pullman's "Golden Compass" than I am with tales of Narnia. (I really had a personal
problem with Lewis when I saw his PBS special and he was puffing on a pipe throughout.)"

Maybe you didn't like his Narnia books, fair enough. 'The Screwtape Letters' I thought was excellent. Have you tried that one?
As fort the pipe.....well, in those days they didn't think smoking was such an awful thing. We know better now!

Thanks for the tone of your reply though, Frank, I appreciate your candour.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:17 PM

Peace "So, uh, ya gonna answer this or not?"

You asking me?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:18 PM

Yeah.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:19 PM

What kind of proof is Ed looking for?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:21 PM

Lord knows; I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:25 PM

I agree, literally! That's part of the problem. You can produce whatever evidence you have and people can find a way to dismiss most of it without leaving you any clearer what would be acceptable to them.

What I can say is this - I've met Him and He's transformed my life, and I'm very grateful for that. I don't know if that'll do for Ed, but he's welcome to ask me anything he wants about it.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:27 PM

Well, Nickhere, that's good enough for this ol' boy. I am glad for you.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:30 PM

Thanks, Peace

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:33 PM

Funny. I usually have little time for people who go out of their way to tell me about their version of God, etc. However, I would be honoured if you'd relate the 'thing', the 'revelation' you had and what brought it home to you, either on the thread or by message.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:36 PM

I asked for that PM too, Peace, so get in line! I'm still waiting for mine.

When we write about those things in the threads-- I've done it myself-- unfortunately it opens up a whole 'nother round of battles. Sad, but true. So let's not this time!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:38 PM

Good by me, Susan.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 08:06 PM

PMs on the way shortly, as soon as I can get some stuff I have to do finished here (hopefully tonight)!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 08:37 PM

When I say "stimulus" I mean a lot more than a "flash of light" - Amos, to get back to where I was before my Internet went away.

For instance, there are bilinguals who can use either language in any situation, and others who get used to communicating in one language at a time (because they live or work or otherwise have daily interactions with people who don't or won't speak the other). With a computer and reaction-time I was able to show that this common usage of one language per conversation works by inhibiting the other, unused/unusable language, not by activating the language that is actually chosen.

It was cool stuff and explained why, growing up in both English and French which my family mixed freely, I had friends who were perfectly fluent in French at school and in English at home, but who couldn't follow my conversations with my sisters.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 09:51 PM

That's really interesting, Mrz. Do you mean that because they were accustomed to one at a time, they couldn't track the melange patois you used with your sisters? Meaning they had to have the structure of "one language per conversation" and couldn't leave both languaes uninhibited at once?

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 03:41 AM

Dear, oh dear, oh dear, MTed, if you think that's an insult you really are clutching at straws. If I wanted to insult you, you'd know about it. 'You godsquad people' is how we talk to the members of our family who are of a religious persuasion. They counter with, 'well you're the devil's disciples'. All taken in good part.

You obviously don't understand my robust repatree. That's how we talk here in Yorkshire - where we call a spade a bloody shovel. My adversarial style was gained in the dockland pubs of Hull on a Saturday night - together with the scars on my knuckles. I think you and Susan need to get out more into the real world. Just think of it as the modern equivalent of being throne to the lions - but remember the story of St Jerome.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 03:50 AM

Whoops. 'Throne' should, of course, read 'thrown'. Must get me good glasses out.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 03:58 AM

The big question is...

WHO'S GOING TO POST 666?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 08:51 AM

Yes, Amos. Being usually in one language turns the other language OFF. Fascinating.
Is that 666?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 09:13 AM

If I wanted to insult you, you'd know about it.

How wonderful life would be if what we INTEND always came across instead of what we actually SAY.

You reference harmless repartee common in your circle-- you're not in that circle now.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: bobad
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 09:16 AM

Around where I live (eastern Ontario) many people are bilingual and more often than not switch back and forth between English and French not only in the same conversation but in the same sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 10:23 AM

Spent time with a family that used French, Italian, English and Spanish. Supper was fun.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 10:27 AM

The Devil you say!

This is post 666, a numerological reference to Nero from the Greek.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 10:33 AM

"You reference harmless repartee common in your circle"

Harmless? The word I used was 'robust'. First you're trying to tell me what I should believe in, now you're telling me how I should conduct my argument. Talk about arrogance!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 10:40 AM

theleveller,

I haven't told you what to believe in, and I haven't told you how to argue. I HAVE indicated that what you thought was free of insult didn't come across that way.

You had asked for an indication of what insult you had delivered. You've been answered. If you don't care that your communication comes across very differently than the way you intend it, that's on you.

If you have the expectation that people can and should read your mind to know and appreciate where you are fromm, how you joke at home, and what you mean-- that's not an expectaton likely to be fulfilled.

I'm sorry for whatever [bad behavior] has been your experience with believers. If you'll look back at my recent posts in this thread, you'll note that not all of us are looking to perpetuate whatever that experience was.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 10:44 AM

RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (especially not Jesus)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 12:49 PM

theleveller--As Susan has pointed out, you're not in Yorkshire, you're not talking to your family. This is not a dockside pub in Hull on a Saturday night. When you're on Mudcat, you're not even in the UK any more.

Not to be critical of any of those places, but the sort of banter that is acceptable there conveys something different and, perhaps antithetical to what you intend, in the wider world.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 01:36 PM

Today's Doonesbury cartoon made me laugh

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: bobad
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 01:59 PM

Me too Bill, I also thought of this thread when I read it.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 03:32 AM

"...you're not in Yorkshire"

Am I not? Wow, must have been transported to a parallel universe.

Well, MTed, if that's you're argument, perhaps you should take it on board yourself; you're not in church, you're not at a revivalist meeting, so stop preaching - I don't spew my beliefs out at you, so please have the courtesy not to do it to me - I find it offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 03:41 AM

Forgot to add, just off to celebrate Yuletide in the proper way as we have done for many years before it was usurped by an alien middle-eastern religion.

No god? Of course there is - you just have to search for your own.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 09:22 AM

Once again, we have an anti-religion thread running full tilt at the very time of year many believers are heavily occupied with the observances particular to our community of belief.

I say this not as a complaint, but to point out that what usually happens in these seasons, with these threads, is that the believers sort of vanish from the discussion, as I am about to do....

Not because I've been out-argued (I wasn't arguing), or "proved" wrong (I'm not interested in being proved "right"), not because I'm upset (I'm having a LOVELY morning in fact), not because I don't have more to say (I might think I have a lot, but it's going into lovely, thought-abundant PMs now)...

.... but because joyous seasons take, and deserve, my time and full attention.

In other words, "Love ya! Gotta go!"

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 09:57 AM

It sounds like you've answered the old question - "Would you rather be right - or happy?"

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 10:02 AM

I have always thought that the two were entirely mutually consistent, as long as you are pretty rational about what "right" means. Some folks gget pretty bent around obsessive rightness, but that's not the clear sense in which I would use the word). In a clearer sense, happiness is the quest toward more and more rightness. Of course, that involves lots of change....



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 10:14 AM

"as long as you are pretty rational about what "right" means"

That's the deal. What I'm talking about when I use that phrase is that so often we're so convinced we're "right" about matters that are personal preference, or are actually trivial that we get blinded and insist on "getting our way". That's rarely a path toward happiness. As I get older I'm more tempted to let the other guy get away with it. Lifes too short to get upset about the driver who cut you off in traffic so he could be "first".

For that matter - who cares if I think there is a God or not? Does it really matter what anyone thinks? What I think doesn't bother anyone. Now if I take some action resulting from those thoughts that harms you - that's something different alltogether.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 10:16 AM

Well, regardless of folks' beliefs (excepting Nazi crud, neocons and racists), I wish y'all a happy holiday season and if you are Christian, a very Merry Christmas. Take care.

Also, Nickhere, thanks very much for the message.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 10:32 AM

Of course it matters if people think there are gods - it's a huge waste of human potential!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 10:45 AM

"Of course it matters if people think there are gods - it's a huge waste of human potential!"

And it's MY potential to waste if I want to. It's really none of your business. And since it's something you have no control over - why do you bother? Why not try to fix the problem of Brittany Spears fans? Shouldn't they really be listening to folk music? You'll have just as much luck with that one too.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 11:44 AM

I think in some cases, Mrrzy, it may be a self-elected method of recovering human potential. It may not be the best way to do it, but it's a work-around that sdome folks find effective.



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 12:45 PM

Wesley, I concur on drivers who cut you off, (and many other examples of bad manners) it's better just to ignore them than pointlessly getting your blood pressure up. I'm only afraid for the drivers on the other side of the road who are about to encounter them a few miles on! Once upon a time it occured to me that one reason we find other drivers so frustrating is that we're all closed in our little metal boxes unable to communicate with each other. There may be a good reason why the guy in front of you is doing only 30 kmph but if he can't tell you and you can't get past, bile starts to rise! One solution i thought of was to have those elctronic message boards like the ones you see in banks and social welfare offices. They could be placed along teh back window and carry a few pre-set messages like 'oops! sorry for cutting you off" or "pardon me for that bit of overtaking".

Then two problems occured to me - just like indicators people would probably forget to use them anyway, and it would be only a matter of time before someone found a way to re-engineer them to carry offensive messages; th electronic equivalent of giving a two-finger salute!

Happy Christmas to all you mudcatters, see you in the New Year!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 01:55 PM

The only potential you can do anything about is your own, Mrzzy-

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 04:09 PM

Mrzzy....I didn't know my own potential until I invited God into my life at the tender age of 43!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 05:15 PM

There are a lot of atheists who have wasted their lives, when it comes down to that. And many who have squandered them on dubious achievements. It does save you on Christmas gifts, though--

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 05:23 PM

"It does save you on Christmas gifts, though--"

*sigh* it only changes what you CALL 'em!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 05:47 PM

I had no idea what I was capable of until I put my trust in Harvey.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 05:58 PM

"There are a lot of atheists who have wasted their lives, when it comes down to that. And many who have squandered them on dubious achievements"

The same thing can be said about people of faith too. It's not fair to single out either side. It's peoples actions that count.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 06:00 PM

And yes Amos - Harvey IS the Truth and The Way. I'm glad you're coming to your senses.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 06:20 PM

hmmm...the only one I know is 'Harvey Nageela', and he won't even talk to me.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 06:27 PM

Harvey Nagila is just a false idol, Bill. The True Harvey is a Rabbit. About 8' tall, with glowing red eyes that just lather the place with divine fury and forgiveness, depending on his mood. Most people say they cannot see him, but, well...you know...that's because they don't want t face the truth.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 09:09 PM

I had no idea what I was capable of until I put my trust in Harvey's.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 10:22 PM

In addition to people who believe in things that Mrzzy doesn't like. Although I still haven't figured out why it makes any difference at all what she likes or doesn't like. Does she like Harvey? Does she like Harvey's? Seems like we had a discussion a while back relating to some pubs in Lewes--

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 10:27 PM

Just don't get Harvey mixed up with Santa-- different fashion choices is the big tipoff. I think some people confuse Santa with God-- that keeping a list, naughty or nice thing? (God isn't like that. He's watching too, but with the eyes of love.) I'm not sure Santa is like the song says he is, either, except maybe when he spanks the Mrs., but I heard that she likes it.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 11:29 PM

I always thought Harvey Nagila was Jewish.

But then, perhaps I'm confusing the reference with that Mexican folk song, "Have Some Tequila."

(Well, somebody had to do it!)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 05:32 AM

M.Ted

Seems like we had a discussion a while back relating to some pubs in Lewes--

A part of perceived reality dear to my heart. There are two theses being written abouth the Lewes Arms. One on psychology and one on "Intangible Heritage".

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 09:38 AM

In various incarnations: ...it's MY potential to waste if I want to. It's really none of your business. And since it's something you have no control over - why do you bother?

1) You are part of my world, therefore wasting you is my business (I am involved in mankind, the poet wrote). It IS my business when people around me pray to end poverty (example only) but nothing gets DONE. And I do not give up hope of having control, which is why I stay in these threads, and talk to intelligent individuals I meet, and attempt to demonstrate the lack of reason in their faith.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 09:49 AM

If that's the case you must be leading a very frustrating life if you are bothered by what others think. And I would disagree with you that nothing is being done about poverty. But it seems to me as if you are discounting the actions that many churchs are undertaking because you don't approve of the origin of their motives.

Again - who cares what they think if they are taking the right actions?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 09:50 AM

Because God told me to - 700 {and it's not a club}

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 09:59 AM

"Again - who cares what they think if they are taking the right actions?"


                They aren't, of course, taking the right actions. They are taking all of the wrong actions; they just don't know it. They can say they are taking the right actions, and that makes them feel good, and that's all that matters.

                In the end, they are doing great damage to the greater society.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 10:03 AM

Well, I think for the second time I will wish my friends here a Merry/Happy Christmas--or Christmas season as you prefer.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 11:12 AM

And a jolly Winterval to all.

Ya know, I don't think there is any question that the Universe is a very very very large and wondrous place, relative to which human interactions are quite small in scale, and perhaps insignificant. But of course, they are not insignificant to me! And I really think it is quite amazing to see this uppity little bipedal species of ours raise up and start measuring and adjudicating the comings and goings of the galaxies and star-clusters, and peering into the black holes of far-off universes. It is presumptuous, full of hubris; but it is also high-spirited, bold, adventurous and fun. In spite of all its strange flaws and mental corkscrews, the spirit of humanity, in my opinion, is a wonder to behold in play.

So you will occasionally hear me say something like "God bless" or "Thank God", in a very heartfelt way, despite my rejection of traditional theistic structures, because one thing I know for sure is it is a very big universe. And I wish it to be kind to all my fellow hoomings. But the spirit of Mankind is all the godhead I need, thanks.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 11:15 AM

Amen to that, brother.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: gnu
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 11:16 AM

Merry HOHO to you too, Peace. A... god bless eh.

700+ posts. Jeepers Creepers!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 11:42 AM

Great you're back, Gnu. Hope you are feeling gooood.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 12:00 PM

From what I have read on this thread, you could replace the term 'organized religion' with 'political party' and not have to change much else. (BTW, I know Will Roger's quote.)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 12:01 PM

My last post here:





















BEWARE OF STUPID PEOPLE IN GROUPS

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 01:36 PM

From what I have read on this thread, you could replace the term 'organized religion' with 'political party' and not have to change much else.

What a coinkydink. I came to post this--

A terribly earnest and thoroughly-scripted [insert product of your stereotype of an enemy] young salesperson just stopped by our front door, to take more of our time than we cared to give, "bearing gifts."

The distinction is, is the person (A) following a script to (B) sell something, or (A) having an honest, interpersonal conversation (B) they and I have agreed to have?

Of course we told her politely that we were not interested, and closed the door. We did not try to convert her away from her program, for the sake of "her potential," because SHE IS AN ADULT doing her own thing.

(Didn't we fight in the 60's for the right to do our own thing???)

I am not looking to reprogram her, and I am not looking to get re-programmed. By her-- or by a well-meaning Mudcatter who cares about my "potential."

Don't we all like to think we have that in common?

Today (I know you're dying to know), it was Kirby vacuum cleaners. Tomorrow it will be Ron Paul campaigners. Next week, Mormons. Alla da samesame. Now, if Mrrzy comes, I would hope it will be for MUSIC.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 02:28 PM

Susan, I hope your Christmas is wonderful. IMO, you're on the side of the angels. Keep up the good work.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 03:35 PM

Echo that Bruce. You aint so bad yourself mate!
Have a great Christmas all....Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 03:40 PM

Mike, I can't tell you how many times those e-mails you send now and then have brightened my day. Thank you so very much. Back atcha. Take care.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 05:32 PM

"And I do not give up hope of having control"--and if that happens Mrzzy, God help us all.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 06:33 PM

"...and if that happens Mrzzy, God help us all..."


                     And since we all know there are no goDs, that's no help at all.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 07:14 PM

Not all of us riginslinger. There are many of us who believe in one God and some who believe in many Gods.......you can believe in none if you wish...that's your choice but please don't tar us all with the same brush as yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 07:28 PM

Hi Susan,

Thank you for the interesting post.

I think there is a problem with throwing the baby out with the proverbial bathwater.
I agree totally wiith building alliances rather than operating on adversity.

I think the best protest or agitation comes from a deep sense of commitment and an avoidance of emnity and anger. I think that this is within the province of those who are believers or non-believers of any religious faith.

It will take a community of people with good will to respond to the injustice that we now face in a sociopathic political administration.

I take your point about healing and fixing the broken parts of a system. My view is that
the system that works for the benefit of society can include many parts, those who believe in a faith and those who do not. I think that it is necessary to understand all parts of any system that affects how society works. I think that inclusion as best as it can be acheived
is an ethical and noble goal if there is honest agreement in those working together.

I have respect for many people who are religious. I see many sincere folks as seeking
truths for their lives and I think this is a constructive pursuit. Secularism is another one of those labels that fail to define everyone who applies it to themselves. What is really scary to me is a closed mind and an unwillingness to investigate that which is sometimes uncomfortable to talk about. Here, the labels of secularist or relgionist become masks for
dealing with the real issues. One main issue for me is to explore how can a society exist without using the option of war and emnity as problem solvers.

Some see religion as creating a polarization and accuse others who don't believe as contributing to it. I think this comes down to the individual. There are polarizing
people who derive something from this behavior whether religious or not.

So people have to find their own way toward the goal of creating a free and peaceful society. I agree that we all have a lot to learn.

I thank you for your honest and thoughtful responses, and when it comes to education,
values, wanting the best that we can have for society, and seeing a mission to help people discover the joy of music, I know we are on the same page.

As we discuss these issues of religion I see an opening that augurs a change that is
beneficial for everyone. It doesn't have to be a line-in-the-sand discussion but can
be a vehicle for intelligent exchange of ideas.

I admire that you wanted to explore other avenues of your life which required courage.

I think you articulated your position well.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 10:21 AM

Frank, I must be "channeling" you now, because you just wrote pretty much what I would write back to you-- all the ideas, and most of the words. I would add, personally, that I think you and I did something good here, in the exchanges we have had. I don;t care too much whether it benefits Mudcat-- not an expectation-- but I am very much aware how it is already benfiting my relationships, ideas, and action outside of this community of people.

BTW our music circle is on hiatus these days-- long story-- but we still incorporate what we can into our Saturday Night Service activities. In June I will lead a Spirituals teaching workshop for some pretty staid Episcopalians (many of whom will be church musicians). I plan to turn them loose on dot-free singing and textual improvisation. :~)

A place you might want to look for models of peaceful change is here: www.rc.org (Not "the" RC Church), in their materials and theory around eliminating racism which extend into eliminating all "isms."

Happy Holidays, and WELL MET,

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 01:46 PM

While I completely support fixing the broken parts of social networks, I do feel it important to add that one of the elements that can be very toxic to any network of beings is false data, and another is arbitrary weighting of importance. The problem with many proselytizing groups (of any stamp whatsoever) is that they often seek to inject data into a calculation about life and survival and such that is false or wholly arbitrary relative to that problem and its solutions. Or, they interject assertions of importance that are all topsy turvy -- just listen to the reactionaries expound on "illegal immigration" for an example of distorted importances.

It can drive a feller barmy, it can. ;>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 10:37 PM

..."just listen to the reactionaries expound on "illegal immigration" for an example of distorted importances..."


                   But who are the reationaries, the National Allience, the Nation of Aztlan, or both?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 12:59 AM

I think Amos was pretty clearly critical of both ends of the spectrum, Riginslinger--but you have put forward an entertaining parallel--those two groups sound a lot a like(both are NAs)-maybe there is some sort of "ClipArt" for hate literature--cut and paste your favorite enemy;-)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 01:39 AM

In my book, reactionaries are those whose thoughts are push-button in nature, not analytical, and concomitantly also tend to be driven by fear and hate rather than cheerful tolerance of one's fellow humans in principle.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 05:46 AM

There are many of us who believe in one God and some who believe in many Gods.......

The difference between an atheist and you is only a matter of degree. As a believer in one God, you disbelieve in many. The atheist just disbelieves in one more God than you.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 01:12 PM

D. Dennett notes a couple of articles by modern theologians. One who believes in an anthropomorphic god considers those who believe in a less personal version to be "no different from Atheists." And, needless to say, vice versa. Everyone's an Atheist to someone!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 01:38 PM

Right, John, and that's the trouble with labels.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 01:41 PM

The failure to differentiate between things that are actually different is the sure keynote of insanity.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 01:43 PM

Susan,

I'll check into the site you recommended.

I think any dialogue and idea sharing is beneficial in today's heated atmosphere of
either polarity or of indifference is always useful no matter what forum.

I hope you can get your musical circle up and running again soon.

I maintain (this may be another thread) that the next Folk Music Revival will
take place in the living room rather than the concert stage or recordings.
When enough people begin to own the music, then an audience is built.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 01:58 PM

Everybody believes in something, even, and often especially, atheists.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 02:07 PM

Not me. I don't have beliefs, at least not in the absolute sense. I assign probabilities, although some are quite high. But nothing reaches 100%. Not mind. Not matter. Not the universe, or my perception of the universe. Not my own existence. Zilch.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 02:17 PM

On a slightly different note, let me mention Mel Gibson, in an interview opined that his wife, and Anglican, was headed for hell. A while ago, on tv, I saw a Christian Evangelist opine that Roman Catholics were also heading downstairs.   Maybe they're both right, and we're all heading for hell!

Give new meaning to the old song, "We Shall All be Re-United!"

See ya!

A Nice Song on the Subject

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: 282RA
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 02:26 PM

>>If I were to walk on your pool and be visible to many people at once it would also mean it would be My second coming (you can read about it in the Gospels).<<

I have, Jesus, and the problem with your second coming as it is written in the NT is that you claim it will happen in the lifetimes of those who stood there listening to you speak. "Many of you standing here will not taste death before the son of man come again" or some such thing. Am I quoting you correctly, Jesus? So it either already happened or you were wrong.

That's the thing people who believe the gospels as history NEVER seem to want to talk about. You, sir, predicted the last days would come before your listeners passed and it did not happen. And you, sir, have never felt pressured enough to clarify what you had said or was quoted as saying. But you must have said it because you were clearly preaching the Last Days. You were wrong. That places the entire belief system of Christianity in jeopardy. It raises the uncomfortable options that you were either deluded or lying. The whole Christian scheme of salvation is instantly erased either way.

See, Jesus, Christians present us with an impossible personage when describing you. You were human but you were god too. But, no, human and god can't coexist so you must have been god. But can god suffer and die? Don't be ridiculous. So you were human so that you would suffer as a human because if you were god, it would only be for show because you can't suffer or die. So, you were actually human up to the moment of your death and then you became god and didn't really die.

No wait, you suffered and died as a human being so that the sacrifice was genuine as a show of how much you loved us and then you went to hell and actually paid for those sins for three days. You apparently paid for our sins to Satan. And then you became god. But then your godlike nature had to already be in you somehow from birth. So you were born god's literal son on earth but you were god, the man shape was just a shell. It was like a balloon blown up by your godliness and mimicking and gesturing and talking as you direct it to.

And you had to shit at times, Jesus, if you were human. So did you shit or not? Some say you did. Other say you did not. Indeed some say you had no internal organs at all and your eating and drinking was just an appearance.

Now, Jesus, I think it's high time you cleared that up for us. People have been dying for centuries over this amazingly childish crap. Enough is enough. I mean, if you're flesh and blood, then you can be forgiven for being wrong about the second coming. You're only human, right? But then that means you have no divine nature and so are kind of just talking out your ass--ERG! Just a few words of clarification here, please. I mean, Jesus Christ, have some decency!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 02:27 PM

I've always enjoyed one litany sometimes used in our church where everyone present prays for everyone else in spiritual error. I am sure that each person is thinking of someone ELSE who is in error when they pray that, not themselves; but the net effect is that everyone there is praying for the better thinking (or "better heart") of everyone else there, and IMO that is always a good prayer!

Similarly, we often use an old song based on a spiritual, "Standing in the need of prayer," which is for "not my brother not my sister, but it's me, Oh Lord, standing in the need of prayer." It goes on to list all the other people usually seen as wrong, reminding the singer that it's not those people who are the rock in the shoe, but ourselves, standing in the need of prayer (forgiveness).

Mississippi John Hurt understood all this better than I think we do:

If you don't love your [insert relationship], don't spread [him/her] name abroad,
Blessed be the Name of the Lord.
Just hold [her/him] in your bosom, and carry [him/her] home to God,
Blessed be the Name of the Lord.


Verses name all the people/roles in the typical church body. Who HERE gonna pick on MJH?!?!?!


Another line from a song based on a spiritual-- a floating verse:

You can talk about me just as much as you please,
Jes' long as you talk about me down on your knees.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 02:32 PM

That's the thing people who believe the gospels as history NEVER seem to want to talk about.

I'm sorry that the well-educated, hardworking theologians are usually kept busy (where their paychecks come from), in church, because that's where the scholars I know usually DO talk about exactly that in what is often called a Theological Reflection.

And I am sorry that the people willing to jaw with you about that point have not been to class of late, and are self-educatedly sure that they know it ALL, just as those who disagree are self-educatedly sure THEY know it all. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 04:46 PM

730-odd posts and growing. The thing that amazes me the most is the number of people who know the truth. The theists, the gnostics, the humanists and the scientists. So many people, so convinced they are right on so many viewpoints. No wonder wars still happen!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 04:54 PM

Oh Dave, not everyone is that cranky.
I'm right about everything, I admit, but I'm a peaceful (possibly even wimpy) kinda guy.
Two of my best friends are VERY religious (one RC, another evangelist) and we tease each other but always remain friends.

Love trumps ideology any day.

(Hey didn't I just coin a nice Xmas phrase?)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 05:03 PM

But you can't be as right as me, john f...:-P

What is it with them Budhists btw? Moslems blow up Christians, Jews bomb the Moslems, Christians kick the %^&* out of everyone. Budhists? What the hell do they do? Nothing! Don't they take their religion seriously or something?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 09:08 PM

They understand the spiritual nature of the individual better than them other guys do, is what it is. So they steer clear of must-desire or must-resist or must-fight or must-defend and find the Better Way and the Middle Path amongst all that brouhaha and tanglefoot.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 09:19 PM

Well, as a matter of fact, they apparently do.

Too many people who adhere to the other religions don't really pay enough attention to what their religion tells them. And this, often, is the despair of other members of those same religions. There is a percentage of Christians who give other Christians a bad name, and the same with Muslims and Jews.

'Twas ever thus. It isn't religion per se. It's some of the people involved, especially those who are intolerant of any beliefs other than their own.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: 282RA
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 09:41 PM

>>because that's where the scholars I know usually DO talk about exactly that in what is often called a Theological Reflection.<<

But since they don't up and quit, what they are obviously doing is trying to find some way to rationalize that when Jesus sppoke of the last days coming in the times of his listeners, he didn't really mean it. I mean, if they took it at face value, they'd have to admit he was wrong, that Christianity as an organized religion is a sham and walkl away from it. I'm certain if any other prophet or god man had said this, Christians would instantly point it out as a justification for why they would never follow this personage.

>>And I am sorry that the people willing to jaw with you about that point have not been to class of late, and are self-educatedly sure that they know it ALL, just as those who disagree are self-educatedly sure THEY know it all. :~)<<

I don't care about them and wasn't asking them. I was asking GUEST JESUS. I'd rather hear it from him because from anyone else, it's just an opinion that others may buy but most will not.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 11:54 PM

"So many people, so convinced they are right on so many viewpoints. No wonder wars still happen!"

                Most of what I know of the "New Testament" I know from reading "The Last Tempation of Christ" by Nikos Kazantzakis. It all kind of made sense from that point of view. It makes no sense at all to me from the point of view of people like Dr. James Dobson.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 10:34 AM

You said it, Doug Chadwick!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 11:48 AM

"Some 2,000 years after the birth of the Lord, what does the Savior see when he regards the world from deep within it (ÒThe Kingdom of God is within youÓ)? The population of Europe, once the cradle of the faith, is shrinking, and of those who remain an ever-growing percentage are now Muslim, and in France perhaps more Muslims than Christians actually attend services on a weekly basis." (Excerpt from a local news-sheet.

This is the kind of cognitive madness that just makes me want to spit. Parsing the paragraph above, it is a rich confection of innuendo, myth, false data, fear-mongering and thinly-disguised group hatism. Yet it is garbed in this thin veneer of sincerity and metaphysics and thoughtfulness , like a rotten apple painted red, as though it were to be taken on board by someone too stupid to notice the difference.   It is not genuinely thoughtful; it is spiteful.

This sort of manipulative rhetoric ticks me off, and makes me irritable, and wanting to throw my hands up in disgust.

Amos

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 12:10 PM

Another way to define it might be: mankind was making progress in France until they started letting Muslims in. Now they're back to square-one.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 12:45 PM

Buried inside many of the statements like Amos quoted are assumptions that they are true.

"...what does the Savior see..." is of that type, as is "...if Jesus returned today, he'd..." and many others. This might be appropriate IN church, where a minister is explaining to a group who are all believers and merely looking for guidance within a belief system, but it is used all too often in public utterances by folks like several of our current presidental candidates.

One of the most egregious examples was in the case of former judge Roy Moore placing a display of "10 commandments" in a public building in Alabama and arguing that he had the 'right' to "acknowlege" Jesus. The very formulation of his claim assumed that he, Moore, had 'the answer', and that it needed to superimposed on ALL situations.

Folks who think like that simply do not comprehend that there might be other views that are relevant and that they might actually be denigrating other faiths and insulting those who don't believe precisely as they do.
   There is little you can say to them...it is like telling a small child "NO!" when they are doing something inappropriate, and can't understand why...and it is a fine line we must walk to allow them to practice their religion, while restraining their ability to foist it on others.

When a set of beliefs is incorporated in the very language structure some people use to explain & discuss, it is EXTREMELY difficult to tell them why you are upset at their presumptuousness.
   I truly appreciate those who can refer to their beliefs and religious preferences and practice them within their group and NOT expect others to feel the same. I have been to churches which were open and welcoming to those who were interested without trying to pin people down. I wish there were more like that.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 09:40 AM

"I truly appreciate those who can refer to their beliefs and religious preferences and practice them within their group and NOT expect others to feel the same."


                   Bill D. - That's fine as far as it goes, but when somebody (or a group) practices their faith and it has an extremely negative effect on the greater society, why would you expect the greater society to tolerate it (them)?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 11:46 AM

Riginslinger--you said "but when somebody (or a group) practices their faith and it has an extremely negative effect on the greater society, why would you expect the greater society to tolerate it (them)?"

Sounds like what the French Monarchy said about the Huguenots, and what the Nazis said about the Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 11:58 AM

*smile*...well, Riginslinger, the answer to that would take a VERY long post. Suffice it to say right now that I DON'T expect society to 'tolerate' "extremely negative" effects. That is essentially what is happening in Iraq etc., right now. Much of the conflict (on both sides) is being fueled by religious attitudes, de facto, if no . In a sense, we are not 'tolerating' some of the Muslim attitudes about using bombs to assure entry into Paradise.

Now...in my country (USA) just who am I supposed to refuse to 'tolerate'?...and how am I supposed to decide which practices are over the line? And IF I decide, how am I supposed to DO anything about it? There are religious groups and individuals whose practices do not bother me in the least....and if we were to attempt to 'control' the practices of some groups, how do we avoid stepping on the toes of others who are less of a problem?
   Do YOU want to be the guy who draws the line? I hope you don't have some idea of curtailing ALL religion? (You think Prohibition was a dismal failure...try restricting folks 'right to practice beliefs'!)

In short, all we can really do is talk, educate, vote...and hope that time brings reason and a way to coexist comfortably.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 12:55 PM

M.Ted - Read into it what you will, but I think there are problems of a serious nature in American that stem both directly and indirectly from religious groups.



      "(You think Prohibition was a dismal failure...try restricting folks 'right to practice beliefs'!)"


    Bill D. - Yes, I would agree. Religion is a lot like alcoholism. And I pretty much agree with your closing line as well.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 01:01 PM

The issue of the commons has to do with acts, not beliefs. The point at which religious "realities" come under the law of civil conduct is the point when actions violating the civil code of conduct are committed.

Those acts are fully covered by civil law and should be prosecuted on those grounds as civil torts or criminal acts. Such consequences should have no traffic with the religious or other convictions behind the acts. Anymore than the delusory hallucinations prompting a random assault against a stranger have anythjing to do with the facts of the crime.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 12:32 AM

I'm with Amos--anybody that breaks the law, whether they are religious or not, is dealt with through the legal system. Beyond that, who is to blame for what is a moot point.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 07:50 AM

While I think there are laws that ought to be enacted or changed, enforcing the laws in place that are not now enforced would be a good start.

                Allowing regilious bodies to use their tax-exempt status to formulated capital and then use it to their own advantage in what is suppose to be a free market place is one example, and using religious institutions to promote political candidates and direct public policy is another. These things could be pursued legally, or course, it religious bodies would give up their tax exempt status.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 11:55 AM

Ringinslinger, to allow any religious view to dominate public policy or to elect candidates
is in violation of the First Amendment of the US Constitution. Faith-based iniatives
that take public money are in violation also.

If there is to be any tolerance for religion in the US, the Constitution has to be scrupulously followed and honored.

Putting creches or bibles in public statehouses or promoting religion politically such as what Romney did is in violation of the US Constitution.

If non-believers are not allowed to express their opinions and are castigated for their views there can be no resolution of the problems of religious animosity.

The litmus test of religion as a qualification for being elected to public office in itself is in violation of the Constitution. What don't those Supreme Court justices understand about that?

Those who accuse non-believers as formulating a fundamentalist religion are promoting
a religious war in this country. They are claiming a religious high ground.

I hope everyone will go and see The Golden Compass. It's a classic on the order of
Wizard of Oz.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 01:41 PM

Frank - I'll make a point of seeing "The Golden Compass."
And I agree with everything you've written in the above post. But if ordinary folks are paying taxes, and religious organizations are not, it seems to me like us ordinary people are supporting them.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 06:31 PM

Hi folks - just flying by and I thought I'd throw a little poetry into the gutter ...;-)

According to religion, God is infinite ...

According to the laws of mathematics Infinity is impossible ...


therefore














God is not governed by the laws of mathematics




See yez next time around


lox

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 09:04 AM

That really does add up!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 10:33 AM

no, it doesn't 'add up'...no matter what you believe or what is ultimately true, that is bad logic and shady math....it is mostly semantic quibbling.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 10:40 AM

BillD...I guess you didn't see the joke.....Mathematical...adding up........

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 10:43 AM

Bill, add up, mathematics. Get it? Is Shady Math that white rapper bloke? And Bad Logic the two-tone sca band from the 70's? Never heard either of them do any semantic quibling. There is a bloke down the pub I go to plays Klezmer accordian though...

D.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 10:51 AM

Samanthic Quibling is a renowned hostess whose lawn parties are world-famous for several reasons. One is the wide array of apparantly otherwise sane people who attend; the other is that the parties reportedly go on forever; and finally, they are famous for their complete lack of nutrition.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 10:58 AM

I saw the attempt at joke *grin*....weak joke, too. (sorry) In MY former life in college, I had to teach kids who used 'logic' like that seriously, so it set off bells for me.

Carry on.


And I'd have no idea what any rappers are named.....but I wouldn't be surprised at anything.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 11:43 AM

The topic is so potentially divisive that people can't even see, much less appreciate, one anothers' jokes. THAT is a concern! :~)

I've been pondering, as our people went through the more peaceful parts of Christmastide as our denom observes it, that there is another fundamental dividing line.

I've said many times that anti-religioinsts are so often "proselytizing" for whatever belief system they espouse, as much and as unpleasantly as the Xians they abhor. I've also said many times that there is a fundie lack of respect in how many people approach the topic. These statements on my part have not brought the clarity or wake-up call I had hoped they would bring, and only fanned the divisiveness (and led me to mix metaphors).

So I'm going to offer another way of looking at that divisiveness.

And that is, (1) there are some nonbelievers who can discuss this topic in a nonviolent-communication mode. Stringsinger is a fine, recent example. I don't think he does it casually-- I think he has to work at it. I recognize it from some of the same semi-formal, self-conscious/self-aware writing manner I adopt when I am trying MY best to communicate with people of another culture, when I am trying very hard to write or speak with intentionality and not passionate upset. So that's one kinda human bean there.

And (2), there are some who can discuss this topic in a socially-respectful manner that doesn't preclude friendship, while stating their own beliefs as positively and logically as possible. My example there is BillD, who has been working at that one for a long time, and again, I see a lot of effort and intentionality involved.

Plainspeak:
Then (3), we have some who have a way of discussing the topic that equates to inciting a hate-crime. That is a strong term. I doubt that the people who write that way really MEAN to be inciting a hate crime, but ya know what? Their manner of expression does just that. It's not just that I find it offensive, as I have written about before. It's.... it's DANGEROUS, as dangerous as the rhetoric that propels suicide bombers. And it's scarier because it's used by some of the very same people who I think would junmp in to help if they ran up on a hate crime against someone of a minority skin tone or gender identification, in real life.


Now, to those of you who are offended by that last paragraph-- I ask you, as a respectful friend in music, to think about my words. Think about whther your upset may be that little twinge of defensiveness that comes from rueful self-recognition. You have here two wonderful role models who have shown the ability to conduct multi-religion-cultural friendships and alliances.

And I ask Stringsinger and BillD to consider doing what I have done-- I've extended the hand of friendship and leadership to religionists in an effort to help them soften their behavior to make more peaceful relationships possible. Consider extending your leadership to the haters. Please.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 03:17 PM

What Susan said. Amen (if I may use such and expression here).

I heard quite an interesting hour-long discussion on my local NPR affiliate a couple of days ago. The interviewees used a couple of terms that I hadn't heard before (although they have apparently been around for awhile). I found them rather usefully descriptive.

Religious totalitarians:   religious sects or individuals who will not tolerate or countenance any views other than their own.

Religious pluralists:   religious sects or individuals who, although they may attempt to persuade others to their viewpoint, value discussion and comparison of different views and find such exchanges enriching.

What makes itself immediately obvious is that totalitarianism or pluralism are characteristics of the believers, not necessarily of the beliefs per se. And it's also obvious that the characteristics of totalitarianism or pluralism apply to non-believers and atheists as well. For proof, simply read some of the posts above.

Religion is full of mystery. In fact, that's what it's all about. But mystery makes some folks very uncomfortable, and they need to have everything spelled out and cast in concrete.

Mystery doesn't bother me. It's one of the things that keeps life from getting dull. If we already knew everything, there would be nothing left to learn, and that would make for a fairly dismal existence, in my opinion. In fact, I tend to agree with this little lady:   CLICKY.   (Besides, check out the dimples!)

God is a verb.
          –Buckminster Fuller

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 03:42 PM

Don,

Thanks so much for that link. I do believe I am in love. OooooF!!!!



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 03:44 PM

workin' on it, Susan.

I wish there were clearer 'lines' ...but it's kind of a gray area where obviously mean & unyielding posts (from EITHER side) are mixed with merely strong opinions from caring folks.

Obviously, the current world situation - added to the religious issues in the upcoming US elections - has exacerbated the divisions. We surely need as much moderation as we can manage from all sides these days.

I often despair about how to practice moderation when beset by extreme provocation...........I'll tell everyone frankly that the assassination in Pakistan today caused me to instantly run thru a series of logical generalizations that make it hard to cope with much less serious issues.


...but...still trying.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 04:20 PM

I listened to Iris sing about letting the mystery be. I'm not wondering where we came from. It's called Evolution and was articulated to a great degree in the Origin of Species by Charles Darwin and verified by leading reputable scientists in the world.

I am happy to not discuss the issue of religion if it can't be done in a rational and constructive way but I don't think that religion should be a taboo subject. I think it
deserves all the scrutiny that science and dialogue can give it.

I welcome any wholesome discussion of religion as long as it doesn't degenerate into name-calling or posturing. Rather than let this mystery be I think it serves humanity to know as much as we can about this subject. I think it needs furthur investigation and empirical testing to evaluate its use in society.

If religion were free of prejudice and bigotry and served society without bloodshed and tribalism then I think it would be OK to let it be, but as long as killing, hatred,
and ignorance is practiced in its name, then I think it needs to be looked at.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 04:21 PM

Don Firth - I've been trying to figure out the mystery of that lady's voice for a very long time.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 05:10 PM

I definitely agree, Frank. But by "letting the mystery be," I'm thinking, not so much of not examining it. But it's pretty certain that we will never solve all of the mysteries of the Cosmos and, come hell or high water, that's the way it's always going to be. Lots of folks refuse to accept that uncomfortable fact and try to leap-frog, via religious dogma, to Final Answers. And it could very well be that there just ain't no such.

Darwin described pretty much how we got here. That works for me. I know too much about science and have been an astronomy and cosmology nut for far too long not to snort at the idea that everything was created no more than 6,000 years ago, as some "religious totalitarians" insist, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. But it also works for a number of fairly religious people I know who find no quarrel between science and the creation myth in the Bible, which they do not take as historical fact.

An acquaintance of mine once remarked that "The nature of some people's religious beliefs is that if scientists were to discover that there actually is a God, and find that God is knowable—well, that would be a marvelous thing for many religious folks. However, there are other religious people who, should the findings of the scientists disagree with some of their fondly held beliefs, would then find it necessary to invent 'SuperGod!'"

And yet, these are the very people who are the most uncomfortable with mystery.

Examine it, by all means. The more we do, the more we learn. But don't expect to find any Final Answers.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 05:26 PM

I thought the Final Answer was 26.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 06:07 PM

"Lots of folks refuse to accept that uncomfortable fact and try to leap-frog, via religious dogma, to Final Answers."

I cannot emphasize enough how important that is and what the implications are.
I had professors in the Dept. of Philosophy drill into my head years ago the concept that:

"From false premises, anything follows."

This is not simply some arcane, irrelevant bit of logical trivia to trip up students....it MEANS something. That is, IF any of the basic premises of some belief system are false, THEN all the conclusions drawn from them are ......no, not necessarily 'false', but suspect & unproven. Yes, likewise, if all premises are TRUE, then we need to pay attention!
Now, what we have is a number of beliefs systems which cannot possibly ALL be true because they contain mutually exclusive claims. Yes...one of them 'might' be true, but choosing among them, cannot, by definition, be done by any known infallible test. (You simply don't test certain concepts the way you test scientific theories).
Therefore, .....and here's the crux.....the MOST extreme and outlandish religious idea has as much chance of being 'true' as the milder ones. Most of us find it easy to reject snake handlers and doomsday prophets....but logically, one can ask..."Why are those seemimgly weird answers not the 'true' ones?" Because they don't get the most votes? Being a minority doesn't seem to bother THEM! They **believe**. Maybe they are are right....and maybe NO ONE yet is right.

Yes, I know...a lot of this is hard to take in, and when I venture into this area, I get the "oh, so you 'believe' in a different system than I do...but my way of thinking is just as valid as your 'logical' one..."......and all I can do is *sigh*. In a way, my point is being demonstrated....*IF* their notion that their way of thinking is as valid as mine is flawed, then so is their conclusion.

So? I can explain all this until I'm blue in the face, and I still have deal with what Don Firth notes....that many people just cannot deal with uncertainty, and MUST have "Final Answers", even if they have to 'choose among the unchooseable' to have them.

For whatever reason...maybe just psychological....I am comfortable with 'not knowing' some things. We learn more every year about the Universe, but I sure don't see any way to 'run around behind it' and see what made it....and if we could, it would only push the Big Question back one step.

In the meantime, I am trapped in a world where some of the 'choosers' are willing to kill other 'choosers' to 'defend' their own version of 'truth'.

.........but still, I must try to coexist..........

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 06:32 PM

Bill,

It sounds like your assumption is that people who ascribe to a system of religious beliefs are uncomfortable with not knowing and believe they have the "final answer." Is that your premise, or am I reading something into your post that is not there, or is unintended?

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 07:46 PM

"It sounds like your assumption is that people who ascribe to a system of religious beliefs are uncomfortable with not knowing and believe they have the "final answer." Is that your premise, or am I reading something into your post that is not there, or is unintended?"


Janie...that's a delicate line to walk. It is not something *I* can prove or test. When you make suppositions about folk's internal motivations or presume to guess what they are thinking, you always tread on thin ice.
   I am though, willing to compare my own assiduously analyzed attitude (for about 35-40 years) of NOT needing "final answers" with apparently different needs in others....and, I have heard some say specifically say that they "can't imagine" a universe without a 1st 'cause'.(This is a major premise in the 'intelligent design' community). I therefore conclude that it is at least common attitude, even if not always the one presented.
   Is it possible that some may have an alternative basis for their basic beliefs? Sure..some simply rely on authority, some on certain aspects of 'history' which they feel has been tested...others make claims about personal experience, (which, of course, I cannot confirm OR deny)....etc.

I guess the only answer is that I know there can be several possible reasons for any individual's beliefs...perhaps a combination.
All I can say is that because there are so many variables, I would bet that a totally neutral analysis (as in reducing the claims to symbols and letting a computer rate the internal consistency), would show no good reason for picking one over another.

Not an easy answer, huh? And that's part OF my point. Any time it looks obvious, it's time to be suspicious and examine just what the hidden premises and assumptions are.

....and as I typed that, I realized that I was paraphrasing a famous aphorism/saying by Alfred North Whitehead. "Strive for simplicity, but learn to mistrust it!"
...and he followed his own dictum by some extremely complex and arcane theories about what must be done to even approach a reasonable analysis of the nature of reality. (my master's thesis was to be on Whitehead's Metaphysics as the only possible type of approach to certain questions...I wish I had managed to finish my OWN thought processes on all that in detail).

Is that enough too much? *grin*

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 10:25 PM

Frank,

If any social institution of society "... were free of prejudice and bigotry and served society without bloodshed and tribalism...." that would be a fine and wonderful thing. But any review of the sociological and anthropological literature of societies and the institutions of society will make clear that none of the 5 social institutions common to all societies (political, economic, educational, religious - and I'm blanking on the 5th right now), are free of those negative attributes you listed.

All of our social institutions reflect human behavior - all that is 'good', and all that is 'bad.' In addition, what is 'good' in one context, setting, situation, etc., is 'bad' in another. That is because we are both individual and social. From an evolutionary and biological perspective, tribalism has functional value, for example.

Don, I continue to find myself nodding in agreement as I read your posts.

China and the Soviet Union did eliminate the social institution of religion. I see no indication their societies improved as the result, nor have I read anything to lead me to believe they were able to irradicate religious or spiritual beliefs of some sort from much of their population in the process. Nor were they able to educate people out of existential questions and concerns. These questions and concerns go with the big brain of the human being.   What was quite apparent, after the break-up of the Soviet Union, (think Serbia for only one example) was that through rigid and totalitarian methods of social control some of the more atrocious aspects of tribalism were contained. So which is rationally better? The totalitarian, repressive regime of the Soviet Union, or the freedom to exercise tribalism? (And I haven't really been able to decide this one, myself,) Tribalism seems to be inherent in the human being. Religion functions to reinforce and constrain human behavior in equal measure.

Religion fills many psychological and sociological functions.   Riginslinger, what social institutions would you design to fill those functions when religion is eliminated? Rationalism? Problem is, humans are not inherently and exclusively rational. Not designed to be. Emotions are not rational. Instinctive behaviors are not rational.

Here is something I ponder: I think it likely that if the human species is going to be able to survive (And I mean survive) the results of our own expansion and impact on the earth by the collective choices we have made (I'm excluding otherwise naturally occurring evolutionary changes such as the sun burning out, or the next major asteroid impact,) it is going to require very serious and rapid changes in human behavior across the globe. It will require a rapid reduction in human population. It will require radical reduction in the use of natural resources. It will mean that some must die so that others might live. My rational mind tells me that the best chances of the human race surviving is going to be if a radical and totalitarian world government with a fixed ideological focus on human survival is in control and stripping you and me of many of our choices and freedoms. Left to our own devices, there is no indication that as individuals or as 'tribes' we are going to make the choices in interest of the species as a whole that threaten us individually or in smaller social units such as tribe or country, or world region. This would be much more possible, and much more psychologically palatable if it were backed up by strong, religious belief (including and reinforced by the social institution of religion) that would make and reinforce reverence for the earth which sustains us such a compelling part of humankind's belief system as to make the terrible individual and smaller social unit sacrifices meaningful, and therefore tolerable to the majority of humans on earth.   With globalization, we now, in many respects, have a world-wide society. Only not quite. The larger the social unit, the less cohesion the unit has.

Who, metaphorically speaking, are the sacrificial lambs? What criteria gets chosen? Who gets to decide? And how much am I willing to sacrifice? In terms of my life style, my material well-being, my ability to provide the best possible launching into adulthood of my son? The survival of my species? The survival of my culture? The survival of my tribe? The survival of my family?

My life? My son's life? The potential future generations of my line?   How do I value possibilities of the survival of myself, my family, my tribe, vs. the possibilities of survival of other lines, other tribes? The realization that some must live, and some must die is rational. But when it get down to who we put our first foot down into the realm of the irrational.

Whether it be by virtue of a God, a transcendent consciousness, or the laws of nature, including evolution, we humans are endowed with the capacity to choose, to consider choice, and to ponder the possible implications of choice well beyond any other species on this earth. We are, however, sans crystal balls. Before a choice is made, there are many, many choices; Sometimes infinite choices. But once a choice is made, as Philip Pullman notes a number of times in the "His Dark Materials" trilogy (The Golden Compass, referred to by Frank, is the first book,) all the other choices slam shut like doors. Sans that Crystal Ball, few of those choices are ever completely rational, and if they are, their effect can not be guaranteed. There is room, and there is human need, for we humans to make meaning out of choices, rational and irrational, and the unforeseen effects of those choices. Religious beliefs and the social institution of religion are often central to meeting that essential individual and social need.

Suggest you read some Durkheim for more on the function of the social institution of religion.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 10:40 PM

Bill, I'll get back to you. spent the last too many minutes (hours) on that previous post, which has nothing to do with yours, or my question to you.

g'night all.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 09:27 AM

*smile*...fine, Janie. Your post shows how long you spent on it. You certainly don't avoid the hard questions. I was surprised to see some ideas ventured in it that I thought I was about the only one here who held them. (not grammatical, but I guess it tracks)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 01:02 PM

Excellent points, Janie. Thank you!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 01:05 PM

the "universal answer" is 42.... But what are the correct units?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 01:56 PM

But the question was "What does 6 x 9 equal?"

As I recall Arther Dent saying, "I always thought there was something fundamentally wrong with the universe. . . ."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 01:59 PM

Hey! It just occurred to me!

Could that be an argument for "Intelligent" Design?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 02:54 PM

phooey! Black holes and killer comets and colliding galaxies and cosmic rays...all making it difficult for we mortals to have a million years in a series to grow and move out and take our rightful place as Masters of the Cosmos!
Does that sound like "Intelligent Design" to you? Why it's ......ummmm...wait a minute. Maybe I'd better think this over...

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 03:21 PM

If this is supposed to be "Intelligent Design," I have a few quibbles with the Designer. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: bobad
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 03:26 PM

There is an intelligent design - it's called evolution.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 03:59 PM

Why is it that the ones who push "Intelligent design" are (mostly) opposed to genetic modification ( ie, "intelligent ( by Man) design" of life?)

And why are they NOT against "breeding", which has the same effect- to manipulate the genetic structure of the animals and plants that Man uses?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: bobad
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 04:19 PM

"Why is it that the ones who push "Intelligent design" are (mostly) opposed to genetic modification ( ie, "intelligent ( by Man) design" of life?)"

Probably because the bible doesn't tell them to "go forth and modify genes".

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 04:41 PM

"There is an intelligent design - it's called evolution."



                      But who's in charge? That's what I want to know.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 05:10 PM

Who on Earth started evolution?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 05:17 PM

An ambitious amoeba?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 05:58 PM

Sorry, but if evolution is so damn clever how come we still have to wipe our arses? Surely after all these millenia the body would have come up with something more hygeninic...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 06:25 PM

Family is the 5th institution. (smacking forehead with palm of hand.)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 06:32 PM

Don't DO that, Janie-- have a V8 instead! :~)

I'm posting out of sequence, so I'm claiming #800.

At that Cavalcade of Bad Nativities site, I saw a T-shirt for thinking Christians. Mudcat fundraiser?
SHIRTS, MUGS, BUTTONS, STICKERS On the back: He died to take away your sins. Not your mind.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 07:09 PM

The following is lifted from the Wiki discussion on Culture.

Religion and other belief systems are often integral to a culture. Religion, from the Latin religare, meaning "to bind fast", is a feature of cultures throughout human history. The Dictionary of Philosophy and Religion defines religion in the following way:
... an institution with a recognized body of communicants who gather together regularly for worship, and accept a set of doctrines offering some means of relating the individual to what is taken to be the ultimate nature of reality.

I would go further and say that religion also always includes some means of relating individuals to other individuals, and to the social group.

I will also say, as did Don Firth, that I think it unlikely that human beings have the native capability to ever discover the "ultimate nature of reality."   

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: bobad
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 07:15 PM

"Sorry, but if evolution is so damn clever how come we still have to wipe our arses? Surely after all these millenia the body would have come up with something more hygeninic..."

It has, it's called the bidet.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 08:43 PM

Oh, sure,,,the bidet! Makes sense....but tell me, how do they get those to soldiers in the field and porta-potties at the festival?

(Rabelais said "the neck of a goose") seems like that would be 'slightly' easier to transport...and no plumbing.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 08:51 PM

goose necks and lesser tools

(Yes...thread drift. But this thread has many byways. Perhaps 'finding something better than toilet paper' IS a religious experience)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 10:20 PM

Bill,

I think most religions embrace mystery at their core. I think one of the prime psychological functions of religion is to provide avenues by which humans can come to acceptance that it is not possible for our species to fully discover and rationally know and understand 'ultimate reality.' Our senses are not sufficiently sensitive, and our big brains are not big enough. One very important aspect of all religion is that it provides a means to come to terms with the unknowable -not to know the unknowable, but to live in the knowledge that we do not know, so that we are not paralyzed by the anxiety of all that we do not know.

Among the monotheistic faiths, I think it would be very rare for a believer (regardless of the depth of their sense of spirituality) to claim that God is small enough to be truly comprehensible in all ways. By definition within the Abrahamic faiths, God is ultimately ineffable. I don't know enough about the major Eastern religions and philosophies to make the same definitive statement, but I would be very surprised if the same were not true.

Every culture, whether one is speaking of a social unit as small as a marital dyad, or something as big as "Western Culture" or "Eastern Culture", incorporates rites, rituals and/or sacraments which serve to both endow individual and social meaning, and to cement social connection. And they always incorporate the mysterious, they always express some mystical sensibility.

What we humans do have the capacity to know, sense, and understand, unlike any other earthly species (at least as far as we have determined thus far) is that existence is, at some level or another, other than what our senses tell us it is.

If one has any rational understanding of human beings, one can not rationally come to the conclusion that is possible to eliminate religion, or faith, or the notion of spirituality from the human species through any means. Let me re-emphasize that these are often (though not always) related, but not synonymous concepts. It is not possible to eliminate 'belief.' We can not as individuals operate in the world without beliefs. There is simply too much information for our brains to handle, process and function if every action, every functional operation must first be examined and determined to be 'real' or 'functional,' examined for it's rational basis, by each individual. Rationality is one part of who we are, what we are capable of, how we operate. Rationality is one tool, skill, attribute, of the human species. But the irrational is just as important to our survival.    It is irrational to deny the operational reality of irrationality as inherent and and it's functionality as essential to the continuation of life.

Education always includes indoctrination. ALWAYS. Because as a species, we are interdependent, we are social. Our young can not survive on their own without assistance from other humans for a lengthy period of time. Hypothetically, a human being may possibly have developed enough both cognitively and physically to have the potential to feed, cloth and shelter themselves in the absence another human in a natural environment endowed with sufficient raw resources by, what, age 9? (assuming they have been trained in the basic skills and knowledge of how to identify and utilize the materials in a sufficiently similar natural environment for the purposes of survival.)   

Other species are also social and at least as interdependent as are we humans. Where we are different, as far as we can thus far determine, is in our capacity to contemplate our individual and collective actions. Our ability to consciously construct or conceptualize notions of morality, notions of values. Guilt (not shame) seems to be unique to humans on this earth.

I have values that I treat as inherent, but from a purely rational perspective, values are not inherent. Values are learned. And values vary from culture to culture. From a rational pov, they each represent different possible configurations to potentiate the probabilities of the continued existence of the individual, the genetic line, the social group. Considered as a whole, the very variety ought to maximize the odds of species survival. And for awhile that was true. Now, however, the mix of the very attributes that have promoted our survival may lead to our demise.   Just how adaptive are some of us?

The personal qualities and attributes that result in me contemplating these issues may not be the same attributes that would allow me, my genetic line, my social group,or my culture to endure, or to effect the radical changes in human behavior that might maximize the likelihood that the species will endure.   I am interdependent in terms of survival. Our species, like any other, is terribly dependent on diversity for our survival. The paradox is this: That diversity could also prove to be our demise.   

In either event, I have a need to make meaning, as does any human. Given my nature as a human being, that meaning will be both individual and social. It will incorporate choice. And the choice(s) I make will incorporate both the rational and the irrational.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 10:11 AM

Oops. Sorry for the redundancy in that last post. I'm wordy enough without it:>)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 10:15 AM

I was just this minute beginning to read it....more later.
(It reminds me of many of my own posts...and the oft-quoted mantra of college students.."I don't have TIME to write a short paper!")

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 12:56 PM

Good, Janie. Indeed, excellent!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 07:16 PM

no fair!

god cannot die so easily!

refresh!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 07:30 PM

It wasn't lost...I have been composing some thoughts in a word processor program. Just haven't had time to get 'em polished. Maybe next year.. ☺/big>

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 07:32 PM

Just to prove it, here's my intro

      Janie. There's only a small amount of redundancy in the post, and it is 'clarifying', not confusing.

Where to start? As I contemplate a reply, I find myself musing that it is much easier to whale away at something one disagrees with than to analyze and comment sagely on something one mostly agrees with.....and you have pretty well laid out not only many of the parameters that we, as humans, must confront in our interactions with others AND our own consciousness, but you also have noted the often 'automatic' (hard-wired?) ways we seem to respond to some of the seemingly contradictory conceptual needs in our psycho-social interactions.
   (now I tell ya'..THAT sentence could use some editing

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 07:33 PM

and what a nice excuse to get #800!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 07:36 PM

Listen! You can all have your gods! As long as you promise not to SHARE!

It's not the religious faith I object to. It's the compulsive spillage...

Ah, that's better.

Cheers and happy new year

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 09:29 PM

and what a nice excuse to get #800!

Bill, all you demonstrated is that you're not reading my posts-- I claimed 800 already, nyah nyah!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 09:21 AM

hmmmpf...just shows YOU have not been reading the rules! Next you'll be telling the highway patrolman who stops you for speeding that you drove below the speed limit 3 times last week, and that you had credit.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 11:31 AM

Oy, so legalistic! :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 03:19 PM

Oh, and when people ask me why I'm still willing to use the Christian calendar of this being New Year's 2008, I say well, the planet's close enough within rounding error to 1,400,002,008 years old!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 03:55 PM

I like that approach.

The Biblical way of living (esp. New Testament) is close enough to "rounding error" to work for me. I suppose that sounds smartass, but it actually isn't.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 04:09 PM

Sounds good to me Susan....the best way I reckon...but that's just my opinion!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 04:15 PM

In the Universe there must be balance in All Things!

Therefore, my New Years resolution is to spend at least a week listening to Philosophers singing folk songs!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 04:45 PM

In the Universe there must be balance in All Things!


There's another huge area of agreement people seldom suspect about Christians-- I not only listen to many sources musically and theologically, I continue to believe in and practice many things from outside the faith as it is traditionally taught that are not in conflict with it. I know many other believers who do the same.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 05:35 PM

At the end of the day we are all just human beings who have been brought to life on earth and are trying to make our way through it in as wise a way as we can. Sad to say that wisdom may often be frowned upon by people who have not experienced what the wiser person has experienced. Also sad in my mind that people have to understand before they can believe, when often belief in something not experienced could be the beginning of ones understanding. There I go again...Happy New Year everyone!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 05:46 PM

... wisdom may often be frowned upon by people who have not experienced what the wiser person has experienced...

CS Lewis, in one of his theological works (not Narnia which is kid stuff! ), says much the same thing. I've been looking for a text version I could paste in, because he says it so well, but you did too, GS. I know a lot of us have sure experienced it as parents!!!

And I think it is true whether one assumes that the "wisdom" is pro-belief, or anti-belief. Relax, folks-- it's just a reference to a common experience, not a GS attempt to convert ("control") you to "his" "wisdom"!

Sometimes I think that all the "religion" arguing around here is just folkie independence, redux.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 05:52 PM

P'raps so; and perhaps the disregard you complain of is reciprocal.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 05:57 PM

I think it's feckin universal, Big Guy.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 06:25 PM

I heard an interview with author A. J. Jacobs on my local NPR affiliate a few days ago.

In his book, The Year of Living Biblically : One Man's Humble Quest to Follow the Bible as Literally as Possible, Jacobs describes how, after reading the Bible very thoroughly, he welcomed Jehovah's Witnesses when they came to his door, and on one occasion, after a three-hour discussion, he had them looking about furtively and backing toward the door.

Don Firth

P. S. Happy New Year, all!!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 05:06 AM

Thank you Susan! I guess when I read back over my last posting again it almost implies my 'wisdom' and although perhaps in many ways I have wisdom..I am also aware that I have so much more to learn. However, the wisdom I was attempting to describe was the wisdom of many others, over the years, that I have disregarded and often to my cost. We all 'go our own way' and 'make our own choices' and I have sometimes deliberately gone against what I know is right just to be 'independent'...I have ignored wisdom when it was offered.
I would hope that I am somewhat more open minded now although I can still be over enthusiastic and go at things like a bull in a china shop...but then can't we all.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 09:59 AM

I'm sure I saw Him playing guitar for the Yardbirds in the '60's. Looked pretty real to me.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 12:35 PM

You sure you didn't just see this guitar?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 12:45 PM

oh,wait...I'm sorry. I guess maybe He gets around. Probably plays with a number of groups.

He even plays acoustic guitar, so we folkies don't even have yell "Jesus Christ, will you turn that thing down!?"


Theology sure is complicated. I'd better quit being silly, as I have to finish looking at Janie's post from several days ago and get some semblance of a relevant reply posted.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 07:18 PM

"Philosophers singing folk songs!" eh! I recall Samuel Johnson's phrase to his philosopher friend "I have tried to be a philosopher, but cheerfulness kept breaking in"! ;-))

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 05:15 PM

Um - The original thread, begun last year by another freethinker, was titled "There aren't any gods (not even Jesus)." I continued it, after it passed 800 some-odd posts, as "Still no gods 2008." If my shorter title is so much meaner, I apologize, but I really don't see the massive difference in spirit.

M.Ted, what do you mind so much about my intolerance of empirical-reality-deniers, assuming you aren't one of them? Do you disagree that a child's right to an education trumps a parent's desire to keep them ignorant? Do you believe that a leader should consult their personal supernatural force or being when making decisions involving your actual life? Why do you think it mean to argue forcefully against these and other immediate harms stemming from basing human actions on faith-in-something-undemonstrable-and-unfalsifiable?

I've started threads about celebrating midwinter godlessly, about whether atheists are the new gays, and posted the lyrics of godful songs I've liked enough to rewrite into godless songs. Others have started very similar threads. Look for the words to Atheists in Foxholes, for instance.

Don't read any further without a sense of humor...
(I also insist that people not smoke in no-smoking zones around the hospital where I work. Meanie, meanie.)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 05:16 PM

Oops - meant to post this to the other thread! This one is being discontinued...

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 05:26 PM

The concept of a child's right to an education is an interesting thought. I just heard a bunch of people arguing on the radio this morning about teaching intelligent design in biology classes. Is that what you mean by keeping them ingorant?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Keinstein
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 07:48 AM

In the Universe there must be balance in All Things!

Why? There appears to be at least one great asymmetry in the Universe (Big Bang/ Creation, call it what you will), so why should smaller scale imbalances not exist? Or could not the balance exist over a broader field, like conservation of energy. Energy (with its matter equivalence) is conserved, but changes in form with a general drift to higher entropy.

And if there's balance in All Things, how do explain my Bank Account?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 10:37 AM

Yeah, your account and mine. Should we address this problem to the creationists or the biologists?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 11:27 AM

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy - PM
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 05:16 PM

Oops - meant to post this to the other thread! This one is being discontinued...

=====

Actually, I had not seen that the management had decided to close this one, and if intelligent, non-offensive conversation in this one resumes, I will participate.

I had the impression that the thoughtful posts here had suspended not because the thread got too long, but because some of us might have gone off to think it all over for awhile, reflectively.

I think of the other thread as the place where reactive posting can just go on ad nauseum.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 11:31 AM

That was one of the least-inspiring, phlegmatic conversations I've heard on the Diane Rehm show in years. And they let the "creation scientist" guy (oxymoron and all) go on and on. No one called him on trying to set the discussion in his terms, they accepted them (despite his cockeyed "metaphors" of football games and such), they just accepted it all and tried to make the best of it. I finally turned it off. There was no passion in the conversation, only PC talking heads picking their way through the landmines.

Religion doesn't belong in the science classroom. It doesn't belong in secular schools unless it is in a comparative context. And we all know damned well if the religion being pushed in the classroom was muslim or judaism, this same exclusively christian creation science lot would be up in arms at religion on the science classroom.

It isn't rocket science to understand that there are many religions in the world, and whether they subscribe to the "personal god" or other types of gods, spirituality or animism or whatever, as was discussed yesterday, all of those religions are too important to let one dominant religion dictate that it alone be inserted into the education system of the community, state, or nation. The founding fathers were influenced by the baptists in separating church from state, because the baptists were afraid that the puritans would try to dictate how other religions conducted themselves or existed at all. Now isn't that ironic!

Let's hope that what goes around, comes around.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 11:33 AM

I'd like to request CLosure of Thread (in favor of the continuation thread "Still No...." started by Mrzzy.)


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 01:27 PM

SRS--I often despair at the fact that media has the idea that "balance" means giving equal time to someone who represents an opposite view, no matter how bizarre that view is--and, as in your example, since the opposing view is really offered pro forma, they simply let the any one they have managed to scrape up rant for a their allotted time, and then move on as if nothing had happened.

Most of the people who belong to mainstream religious groups have no disagreements with the discoveries of science, and that comprises most "religious" people, but you wouldn't know that if you relied on the media--you'd think that science and religion were locked in some sort of mortal combat--