BS: Internet Romance, watch out!

Subject: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: GUEST,Once burned
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 05:26 PM

Our local newspaper ran the most amazing survey a few weeks ago. At first I thought it was pretty funny but after I finished reading it I felt a bit depressed. They talked to 500 people who admitted they had tried to find true love via the internet, and had eventually met that person in the flesh. Here's some of the things they came up with.

Women reported that over 80% of the men they met lied about things the women considered important. In order, Marital Status or 'degree of marital separation'. Job importance. Having a job, period. Height. weight. Amount of hair. Size of sexual organ. (I'm just repeating what they said) Type of car. Having a car period. The desire to have a long term relationship rather than a short affair.

Men reported that close to 85% of the women they later met in person lied about something. In order, their weight. Age. Using old or 'doctored' photos. Being on medication. Not understanding that the relationship 'wasn't forever'.

Only 8% had no complaints when they finally met each other in person. Less than 10% continued on with the relationship after finally meeting.

Those are bad odds. Maybe the old fashioned ways are still the best.

Twice shy

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Zebedee
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 05:33 PM

The song The Lily of the Net in the DT database pretty much says it all.

Ed

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Gervase
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 05:37 PM

I did a feature on online dating when I worked as a hack, and the general consensus of those I spoke to was that the whole thing was a dangerous lottery. Women tended to get targetted by married men in search of a bit on the side, while men tended to attract the desperate, possessive types.
No-one I spoke to was really happy with online dating, and few would recommend it, although many of them saw it as a way to while away dull times in the office by inventing strange personas. One guy admitted to being several women just to take the piss out of other blokes!
Personally, I'm happy with this place - more love and affection here than a squillion chat rooms, and who needs cyber-sex when you've got 'Spaw's vitual farts :^)

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Peg
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 06:23 PM

I think those who *actively* go looking for love or sex on the net are bound to be disappointed. I am on AOL and my handle starts with the letter A, so I get trolled by men ALL THE TIME, instant messaging me, some subtle and charming, some blatant and stupid, all looking for basically the same thing...it happens so often and so many of them seem to have a similar M.O., that I have to assume at least some of the time they manage to connect with women and have sex with them. Eeewww, I say.

That said, I have, on more than one occasion, made a connection with someone online which *later* grew/escalated into a potentially romantic thing (usually phone calls follow email, etc.)

First time: We emailed, chatted and talked on the pohoen for weeks. But in the end I was simply not attracted to the guy. Mutual friend introduced us and sorta tried to play matchmaker. He did not lie about anything far as I know. But he was not at all who I thought he was. He seemed to be this very confident, outgoing, socially-skillful individual but in person was not. I, on the other hand, was just what he expected; and he was quite attracted to me. Very awkward when he came to visit...

Second time: we met through a mutual cause we are both active in. Long phone conversations, talk of meeting, going on trips together, etc,. MUCH listening to how his last relationship (6 yrs) broke up. Our "romance" broke off when he met another woman the exact same way and decided he had more of a "connection" with her. Several months later I had occasion to visit his city (very far away) and we got together and for all intents and purposes you'd have thought we had a pretty srtong attraction for each other. I found out in the course of my short visit that he had lied about some very significant portions of the "other woman" thing (who, BTW, when he went to visit her in person for the first time, offered him an ultimatum about moving in with her and relocating, and when he said he did not want to, threw him out and told him to go stay in a hotel. Why he chose that manipulating little psycho over me, I will never know). So, having forgiven him months earlier, found I had even more reason not to trust him. There is still a strong attraction but why would I want to get involved with someone like that? (sigh) Because love is stupid. It is also blind...and experience has taught me, it is also occasionally deaf, dumb and unable to smell.

As hard as it is to meet people (witness the "Unhooked Catters") thread, I must agree, the old-fashioned way of meeting and mating is best. It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that schwing...ya know?

Peg (alchemical goddess)

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Peg
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 06:28 PM

I should also add: I appreciated seeing those stats on what people lied about most, broken down by gender. VERY interesting.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 06:32 PM

Well, I don't really play the autoharp either, and I'm not actually a Christian. And Hardi-- a real pastor? Are you nuts??

~S~

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Peg
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 06:38 PM

why would someone lie about something which is physically unalterable, like age or height or in most cases, weight?

I mean, if they intend on ever meeting this person, in person.

Don't even get me started on why the size of the mens' sexual organ was even a topic of conversation BEFORE they met...the fact that these women still went to that meeting, after this information was offered (perhaps solicitied, who knows?) is REALLY scary to me.

I think I shall become a freakin' nun.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Amergin
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 07:07 PM

Been there done that....she moved up here from CA and nothing that we told each other was lied about....in fact I did find true love and in the end a broken heart...

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: GUEST,mkebenn at work
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 07:17 PM

Oh lord, Ed, thanks for pointing out "Lily of the Net", can't wait to get home and see how it sounds. Mike

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: kendall
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 07:28 PM

I've had my share of the "personals" and, although I have met some nice women, most of them have been wackos.For instance; a woman called me, we talked, she sounded like a modern type, but, then she insisted that I try to describe her..I had no clue, but, went along. Then, believe it or not, she wanted to know if I could guess her bra size! I knew better, but, moth to the flame...she invited me to lunch. It was obvious that we had nothing in common, and, in the parking lot we were discussing the new "rules". I casually mentioned that I was flexible. I thought that if you invite me to lunch, you should pick up the tab, If I invite you, I pick up the tab. Well..she invited me, but I picked up the tab out of habit. When I told her my flexible rule, she got kinda huffy and said "Do you think I should have picked up the tab because I invited YOU?" I replied not necessarily.." but by then she was locked into that old fashioned thing, and she said "WELL..I dont have a penis"!! To which I replied..."WELL, I do, but I've never tried to pay a bill with it"! She didn't even smile! No sense of humor at all..a fatal flaw as far as I'm concerned.

No, the best way to meet is through a mutual friend. Or, it wouln't scare me to meet any mudcatter. 'course, I dont scare easily.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: WyoWoman
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 08:32 PM

Be afraid, Kendall. Be very afraid ...

Actually, chemistry is so important -- just plain ol' physical attraction of one body for another -- it's a wonder relationships created in thin air like this ever work out. Of course, it also depends on what you're looking for in a mate. If purely or mostly cerebral and shared interests are da' bomb for you, then getting together on the basis of talk can be fine. But ... if you care about the physical and you get together and there isn't that arc of energy between the two of you, or the possibiity of it on down the road a bit, it all seems doomed to fizzle.

And I can't for the life of me imagine a relationship of any conceivable (er, uhn... freudian slip there, maybe) value that would begin or end with a discussion of the size of his pee-pee or her ta-tas. Good grief ...

except ....

nah ...

ww

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: flattop
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 08:38 PM

Hey GOB,

Eight percent with no complaint when they finally met each other isn't a bad return on investment if you appreciate numbers. The return may not even be far out of line with non-internet-fleshy meetings. It's roughly equivalent to running into 9 assholes before finding one who really cranks your V6. Not unreasonable. It doesn't matter, if you swill drinks in bars or wiggle your ass at church socials with those terribly danty lemon squares and cherry oatmeal squares and a strangely folded napkin, 8 in 100 ain't too shabby.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 10:23 PM

Well, bud, the beauty of the hard-won, and well-crafted, long-term relationship is that our per centage of wins over losses on encounters goes up to over 85%. Just in case you wondered why some guys work so hard at making one! The numbers can't be beat!

And Peg, all I can say is the jerk had his brain in upside down; you're worth twenty years of anyone's life any time, and that should be completely obvious.

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Matt_R
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 10:31 PM

I think we should as Mousethief about this.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 10:49 PM

Its sad that people are forced to lie because of social pressure, and it's sad that people bow to that presure.

lox

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Allan C.
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 10:54 PM

Well, I'm not sure I could quite put it into the "romance" bracket; but after traveling around this continent and having met some 75 Mudcatters, I can say that (were I not already spoke fer) there were LOTS of Mudcat women who I would at least want to take out once or twice. Of course, who knows whether they would have felt the same.

I will confess to having arranged to meet with a female 'Catter once who captured my imagination. We drove for miles and miles to see one another in the real world. This may well have been the first such event of its sort among the people of the Mudcat. There have been others, I know, since then. There were no lies, no subterfuge on either side; but reality was still a whole 'nother thing. No magic. We soon headed back up our respective roads; but we later continued to correspond as good friends.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: flattop
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 11:00 PM

I'm not sure we have opposing views, Amos. You're not saying that you work hard to develop well-crafted, long-term relationship with 100% of the women at you church socials, are you?

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Peg
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 11:46 PM

Amos; thanks. I needed that. :)

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 11:47 PM

Ummm, Allan, when are you headed back to Why-Oh-Myn?**BG**

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: GUEST,Once burned
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 02:08 AM

Some of the stories in the original article were positively creepy. I get the feeling that most of the people lied simply because they didn't think they'd ever actually meet. I forget what percentage had already had cyber sex before they met, but it was most of them anyway. One woman claimed to have met ten out of state men in less than a year. I'd be afraid of finding out that someone whom I thought was interesting was really a psychopath.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 03:40 AM

I doubt that the percentage of lying is much less in personal contact if you disregard aspects like height, weight, lookings you just cannot lie about to a person who sits next to you. But the other lies (marital status, wishes, feelings,..) come about as often in personal contact. In some of the cases these people also lie to themselves, they'd love to believe, e.g., that there are more important things in their lives than their job.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 04:40 AM

About 6 years ago I was in constant e-mail contact with a guy - a friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend type thing. We got on fantastically and after several months of writing to each other I flew the whole way to the US of A to stay with him and his family. I had a wonderful time, and a lovely holiday romance, but that's all it turned out to be (I was only 19). He moved back to Ireland, where he was originally from, and it freaked me out as I felt we were constantly being questioned and watched by his friends to see how we got on because at that stage not many people we knew of met through the internet. (I eventually lost touch with him, and it was probably my fault that I did.) Neither of us had seen pictures before we met - we just knew the person who wrote those e-mails. At the end of the day, there just wasn't the chemistry to sustain anything and we had a few fundamental difference that just didn't come out in the e-mails. Plus I was too young to be having serious, lasting romances with anyone. But it would have made for a nice episode of the bloody awful "Dawson's Creek".

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Hollowfox
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 09:09 AM

I think I'll stick to meeting people at folk festivals. Mary (who doesn't shop for clothes from catalogs, because she can't be sure of the fit there, either.)

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 09:32 AM

I was leery of meeting anyone in person that I had only known through the Net; but since most of my opportunities have been group ones (meet both BeauDangles and Bill Sables together, or all the folks at the chantey sing) or friends-of-friends (met moonjen at AllanC's) - the only exception was Mbo, as he was called at the time, but even that was done very publicly, at a hotel with my twins. And it made me very, very nervous. But were I on the prowl, I'd go to face meeting places - restaurants, coffee houses, etc. It's bad enough that I have authors and customers on the phone and email all the time, and then meet them at my annual conference, where they look nothing like my image - I also don't like seeing movies when I've read the book because of the distortion (subjective) from the mental image. I can't imagine attempting to develop a romantic relationship like that. But a couple of my most happily married cousins (well, my cousin and her husband, no incest here!) met through a dating service... so maybe it's just me.

I've never lied about my weight, I just don't weigh myself so what I say is a true estimate anyway!

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: MMario
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 09:42 AM

I know it is wierd enough meeting people *without* prior planning whom you have "met" through the internet. Since I frequent two groups where the members can end up at faires or festivals I meet quite a few - I can tell where they know me from by the way they pronounce my name! MudCatter's tend to say "Muh-Mario" (at least at first), while Rennies just say "Mario"

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 11:07 AM

The only time I lie is when I'm doing a performance and getting paid for it. There is nothing about me that I'm ashamed of.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 11:15 AM

Kendall, I don't understand why you have to lie at a paid performance.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Midchuck
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 11:31 AM

Bonnie, Kendall tells stories, many of which are, I hope, untrue. Legally, none of these are lies, because they are told to entertain, with no actual intent to deceive. (or is it "decieve?" I before E except after C and all that crap...Max, when are you going to build a spell checker into Mudcat?)

Anyway, notwithstanding the above, in the Northeast, at least, tellers of tall tales refer to themselves as "liars" with great pride, and sometimes claim to be "Champion liars."

Peter.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 11:45 AM

And thats the truth

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 11:57 AM

After a rather messy divorce I wanted to stay away from the other sex for a while. About a year later I happened upon a lady quite by accident on the internet. Random chance sums it up best I think. We e-mailed for a period of time, agreed to meet in a public place (we had already exchanged photos), and I fell in love on the spot. 3 years married this April and about 5 years total time with each other. I don't know the odds - but I don't do bars, church, or random social gatherings and my odds of meeting My Love were zero but for the internet.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 12:35 PM

Well I was certainly nervous about meeting Catspaw face to face. I spent the whole night before thinking: "Will he be the fascinating, charming, devil-may care bundle of excitement that I see daily on Mudcat? When I saw him puffing and huffing up the hill in Niagara Falls Ont. with three possums on a leash, I could hardly contain myself! I raced up to him, and in my enthusiasm, pulled off his toupee, and accidently dislodged his wooden leg. As he tumbled down the hill and over the Falls, I could only think, what might have been!" I have no such illusions of Kendall...whom I also hope to meet some day. I picture him as a grizzled old fart with a guitar and funny accent!

Other than being only five foot six, Big Mick was exactly as I pictured him.

Rick

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Allan C.
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 12:51 PM

...and Rick was NOT bigger than life (and did not, in my estimation, seem to be a living god either *G*).

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Naemanson
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 12:52 PM

Does this mean my plans for The Mudcat Romance Connection have to be scuttled? Oh well...

I have met a few women through the internet and with one exception none of them lasted beyond the email stage. That exception has stayed on as a pen pal, nothing more.

As far as meeting someone in the clubs, pubs, and bars goes, well, in the 5 1/2 years since my divorce I only met one woman and she wouldn't stay the course.

But I have hopes, and I'm going dancing tomorrow night.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 12:55 PM

Yes but Rick, the question still remains, did Spaw puff and huff in bed while his 3 possems watched you guys make love after you pulled off his toupee and within all that excitement accidently discovered his wooden leg?

Its one thing to meet a buddy you have grown fond of through cyberspace. It is another thing to meet someone as a potential partner or romance.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 12:58 PM

Careful Brett...that enchanting creature may be Bill Sables in a dress!

Allan. We both have some of Buddha's characteristics....around the waistline.

Rick

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 01:05 PM

I must be in the minority. That's okay. I've never been one to run with the pack.

It certainly was a case of "not looking for love" -- Just an online friendship that blossomed into something more.

Been married 3.5 years now. Still giddy in love. Full story at blicky (warning: there's a lot of "religious" stuff in the story too!).

Alex

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Allan C.
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 04:25 PM

I never thought of it in that way, Rick. Hm-m-m I think I like it. Do I get to trash the diet now? I had hoped to start looking a little more like Rama except that I'd rather be of a different tint:

Rama

My daughter, Kelly, has had numerous cyber-to-real-life encounters. They have led her to cities all across the U.S.. Some of them worked out to be good relationships, some of which lasted for quite a while. Others quickly turned sour. My best guess is that she has met agreeable people more than fifty percent of the time. Lies have been minimal and less than crucial in most cases. A few have resulted in what will probably be lifelong friendships. She has usually been very careful and has had enormously good luck IMO.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: bbc
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 08:19 PM

I guess Duane D. & I fall into the 8%. We've been together 3 1/2 years & continue to be very happy. We had both tried newspaper personal ads at various times w/out success. 3 weeks after I put an ad in meetmeonline.com, he was the 1st person to answer. We have compatible values, ways of thinking, & spiritual beliefs. He loves my teenage children & wants to be w/ me the rest of our lives. He thinks I'm gorgeous & wonderful, even though he knows me. I like him, too. ;) Our homes are 2+ hours apart & we are both over 40. Pickin's get slim. I'm really glad we met. Meeting people anywhere holds some risk. You make your choices & take your chances.

best,

bbc

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Allan C.
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 08:29 PM

I just spoke with Kelly about this. She said her success average was much higher than my estimate. Her impression of what has made all the difference is that most of these were people with whom she had been conversing online for a year or more rather than the month or so that seems to be more common. In fact, the only one she caught in a lie and who turned out to be other than as advertised was the only one whom she had known online for only about a month.

That should tell us something, I would think.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 08:45 PM

I had a lovely evening with a gentlemen who introduced himself by confessing to manic-depression and lining up his medications for proof. Another hated his wife beyond belief because she had thrown him out without so much as a dinner plate or place setting of silverware. The evening got downright hostile when I pointed out that all were available for less than 20 bucks at Woolworth's and I wouldn't break up a set of good china or silverware either. By the way, they had separated 12 years earlier. It was still an issue. The best was a man who shared my love of opera and ballet but insisted on wearing his baseball cap covered in gold military braid during all performances. I did find one very romantic, gentleman who pursued me relentlessly, proposed marriage, and then crawled back into bed with his dead wife - don't ask. be afraid. Be very afraid.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 09:30 PM

crawled into bed with his first wife? definition of necrophelia..That uncontrolable urge to crack open a cold one.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: DougR
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 10:54 PM

WyoWoman: Ta-tas?

DougR

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: sophocleese
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 10:56 PM

kendall, that's sick and I'm giggling madly, thanks.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: John Hindsill
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 11:07 PM

My niece met a fellow in a chat room. They have now been happily married for 25 days. It can happen!---John

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 11:49 PM

In one way you can get to know someone intimately through the net - in that it is easier to express inner thoughts when writing, than with talking over the phone - generally. You can stop, think, erase and re-write, (assuming one is writing honestly) and take the time to put your thoughts together. What's missing is, as y'all know, is knowing whether you and the other person can get along with each other, and have chemistry, and that of course is essential, but let's not be too harsh on the potential of the printed word for discovering what's inside the person at the other end in a way that's very revealing. Granted there's the power to deceive, as well.

-chanteyranger

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Calach
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 06:21 AM

Hey, ok guys, Thyme2dream/Sabra and me must also fall into the "8%".
Met on line in a yahoo chat room, met in the flesh 6 months later, and we're still together/apart 21 months on. It's been a great adventure for us both.
We plan to stay together/get married at the end of 2001.
She's visited me once, I've visited her 4 times now, and we're still very much in love.
We both sing folk, play guitar/mandolin/bodhran and I write songs and other stuff.
We both think that the net is a safe place to get to know someone; but the proviso which accompanies this is that BOTH PARTIES MUST TELL THE TRUTH.
BTW.... I am in Edinburgh, Scotland, she is in Kansas, USA.
Both of us have our pics in the mudcat resources.
Best of luck to all who sail in her......
Calach.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 06:55 AM

Calach, Allan & Alex (& anyone else I've missed) I find it inspiring to hear your true cyberspace love stories. Gives me faith.
I do believe we can find the right mate in all sorts of places, no reason not to include cyberspace. Although for myself, I guess I wouldn't go looking on the internet for romance. The same way I usually do not go looking for a partner out there in the 3D world. I have placed my faith in Chicken Little. May he drop the right man for me out of the clear blue sky at the right time in the right place.
Looking for romance can waste a lot of my time and energy I could put towards more productive things I want to accomplish. When my true love comes knocking on my door I have this feeling Chicken Little will hit me over the head with his love bat.

Little Neo

Subject: Thread Creep
From: Allan C.
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 07:58 AM

Chicken Little was scurrying down the road, telling everyone he met that the sky was falling. He came upon a little sparrow.

"The sky is falling! The sky is falling! I must go tell the king!"

The little sparrow suddenly flipped down upon its back and stuck its feet in the air.

"The sky is falling! The sky is falling! What the heck are you doing?"

The little sparrow looked up to the heavens, extended is feet a bit farther and said, "One does what one can!"

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 08:56 AM

A few years ago, a woman here in Maine answered an ad in the personals, or maybe she instigated it..anyway.. this guy shows up on her porch with a chain saw. Professed his love, started the saw, and cut his own head nearly off. He died in a pool of blood on her porch. This was in the news, it's not a story.She just had the porch painted too..

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 08:57 AM

Allan are you suggesting I should lay down on my back, stick my feet up into the air and do what I can? Oh that would only get me into trouble.

:)

Little Neo

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Allan C.
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 09:10 AM

"Her heels rise for me..." - Jefferson Airplane

No, Bonnie. But you have raised an interesting point. *G*

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Naemanson
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 09:25 AM

For those who don't want to believe what Kendall said about the chainsaw suicide, it happened in the next town over from here, only a block or two away from where one of my coworkers lives.

The suicide was from away.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 09:39 AM

Allan, I have risen my heels enough to sense my feet feel an unnatural strain. Its time I allow someone to meet me at a natural reach.
Sort of like the saying.....if they meet me at the fence, I'll show up but I ain't going to hop over it to go find them.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 09:55 AM

Trouble? Neo, ..life is trouble, only death is not. A man should undo his belt and look for trouble.(Zorba the Greek) By the way, the way you fly around, it would take an athlete to catch you!

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Allan C.
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 10:02 AM

Aye, Kendall. But what a lucky man he would be!

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: GUEST,Marty at work
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 11:56 AM

I read the newspaper survey that 'once burned' talks about, and I think the awful statistics are a bit misleading. Most of the people who told their stories seemed very damaged to me. I think they were willing to believe anything they were told, if there was a chance to relieve their lonliness. It's easy to be lied to if you're desperate. Also, you've got to be awfully angry at someone to go public if you feel you've been humiliated or lied to. I would think that the vast majority of people who found good relationships thru the net couldn't be bothered with futility surveys. Besides, humans say things at one am. they don't mean in the light of day. A few Presidents probably have.

M

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 11:59 AM

Lookin' fer love in all the wrong places
Lookin' fer love in cyberspace is
Dicey, just like lookin' fer love

Alex

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: flattop
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 01:10 PM

I did advocate for the 8% solutions, however, I must warn you that you can't be too careful. Lots can go wrong in the wired wooing world. First of all, what's this crap implying that mudcatters are less risky than other internet users? Would you and I be here if mudcat didn't have a high tolerance for mental illness? And you should take Calach's warnings seriously. In spite of his posting a strange picture of himself to mudcat, T2D seems to have kept on hitting the submit button. Him in Edinburgh, her in Kansas, now there's a rough road to row. And both bodhran players, Jesus, be careful out there folks.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 01:17 PM

I believe, flattop, the expression is a rough "row to hoe."

I think Jesus is always pretty careful. But that's a question for another thread.

Alex

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 01:43 PM

I met Geoff in a pub. I told him I was beautiful and clever. We've been married just over two years so I hope he hasn't spotted the lies yet!

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 01:54 PM

Marty is right

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: flattop
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 02:11 PM

Good thing Geoff in a pub is not as sharp as mousethief, Mrs. Duck. Sometimes I'm not sure what I garbled. Could have been 'All roads leading to Rome are paved with good intentions' or 'a Roland for your Oliver' or perhaps I meant to write 'The higher the monkey climbs the more he shows his arse.'

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Jim Krause
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 03:03 PM

I'd agree that the old fashioned way is the best. Anyhow, it worked for me. And after all these years, she STILL has that look in her eye.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 04:24 PM

Jim, has she tried Visene?

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Peter T.
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 05:21 PM

I met Rick Fielding through the Mudcat, and he is everything he said he would be and more.

yours, Peter T.(Unsolicited Mudcat Testimonial)

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 05:26 PM

Yeah but did you date him?

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: paddymac
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 01:22 AM

I suspect that we all form opinions or views of people we interact with here, much the way we do in the real world. There are some we like, some we don't, and some for whom we just don't form an opinion at all. But this is not a destination site for people seeking sex, and the topic seems never to arise in a solicitation mode. There are many fine contributors here whose gender is unknown, and unimportant to their mudcat participation. I can say that I love most of the people here, but don't have sexual fantasies about them (well, except, maybe, for-- ):>)

Our band is booked to play a wedding recption for a couple who met on-line. I've met them both in the real world, think highly of them, and wish them the best of luck.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 01:36 AM

Well Amergin, it's a long story. Yah see Peter is one of these spiritual guys who refuses to get a TV. After the honeymoon, I'd be sittin' there at home waiting for him to come back from South America (or wherever he goes to solve their irrigation problems) and since I wouldn't be able to watch Seinfeld re-runs, I'd probably be tartin' m'self up and goin' down to the local bar to pick up sailors....and Peter being such a straight-laced guy, well he wouldn't like it...and before long he'd blow my head off with one of his AK 47s.....nah, I don't think we'll do much datin'.

I think I'd better stick with Heather(Duckboots). She's got much better legs, and just goes upstairs when I turn on the wacky adventures of Jerry, George, Elaine and Kramer.

Now if I was female.....I think Peter would be quite a catch! He does look like Sir George martin......with a touch of Jerry Lewis thrown in!

Rick

P.S. Oh, about this thread: If you're dealing with someone on the internet for more than a few days, and you can't pick up danger signs.....You don't WANT to.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 03:16 AM

Main Chainsaw Suicide makes Darwin Awards

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 08:15 AM

Former champ George Foreman has 3 or 4 boys all named George too. He's not a Lunatic.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Naemanson
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 10:33 AM

I dunno Kendall. Anyone who goes, by choice, into a ring to batter another human being into a bloody pulp while being watched by millions of bloodcrazed boxing fans could not exactly be called sane, could he?

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 11:05 AM

testosterone poisoning thats all. I used to do some boxing, am I a lunatic?

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 11:05 AM

testosterone poisoning thats all. I used to do some boxing, am I a lunatic? Gave it up, because I had no desire to hurt anyone without good reason.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Peter T.
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 11:21 AM

Our relations are strictly Aristotelian. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: flattop
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 04:13 PM

Peter, perhaps you need to read Count Alfred Korzybski's book Science and Sanity which presents an approach to non-Aristotelian thinking. It was based on papers he presented at your University of Toronto in the 1930s.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: JenEllen
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 04:44 PM

Are you sure you mean 'romance' and not 'cheap thrill'?

It's pretty hard to consider it romance when both parties hide their hearts behind a screen. I'd like to be where I can see the twinkle in your eye, thanks very much!

It was just a brief encounter
Not the sort that might require a broken heart
Or looking backwards from the start
But it sure was something sweet

~Elle

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Matt_R
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 07:04 PM

HEY, some of us take it any way we can.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 07:14 PM

others, not at all..

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: JenEllen
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 07:38 PM

No Matt, all of us take it any way we choose to. There is more than just a little bit of determinism in the mix, here.

You can hang your hat on something that is never going to happen, but generally all that leaves you with is a cold head.

~Elle

A fine romance with no kisses
A fine romance, my friend, this is
We should be like a couple of hot tomatos
But you're as cold as yesterday's mashed potatos

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Matt_R
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 07:52 PM

'Never going to happen'? There is no way you can know that for sure. No one can ever understand, except me and her. We ignore the naysayers.

Never cared for what they say
Never cared for what they do
Never cared for what they know
And I know...

So close, no matter how far
Couldn't be much more from the heart
Forever trusting who we are
And nothing else matters...

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Allan C.
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 08:42 PM

I believe that I have developed numerous friendships online. I feel that I am good friends with a few people I have never yet met. I can well imagine that love could be nurtured to some degree in the same way. But, at the end of the day, there is no substitute for face-to-face contact.

There are many, many subtleties that a careful reader can pick up on in the written word. But as JenEllen points out, facial expressions can tell mountains of information with never a word being spoken.

In this medium we are using right here, right now, there is no such thing as looking up and noticing that someone has been watching you from across the room. There is no sweet scent of patchouli marking the spot where she stood. There is no slight crinkle in her cheek as she smiles. And the silver cascade of her laughter...

I prefer "live and in person". I will put up with cyber friendships, for example, because all too often a face-to-face encounter is not in the cards at present.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: JenEllen
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 08:46 PM

A toast to Allan. Well put, my friend.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Matt_R
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 08:56 PM

"...looking up and noticing that someone has been watching you from across the room. There is no sweet scent of patchouli marking the spot where she stood. There is no slight crinkle in her cheek as she smiles. And the silver cascade of her laughter... "

That may be all fine and dandy for YOU people, but these things are TOTALLY foreign to me. Live and in person SUCKS. It does nothing for me whatsoever. What's so great about watching people walk away from you all the time? Plus, I recently foundout that a lot of people 'assumed' I was gay. So, I wish all you "beautiful people" would stop knocking something you don't understand.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 09:01 PM

Elle & Allan you have both expressed how I also feel. For me a real romance must be experienced on a physical plane in the presences of one on one communication. Otherwise it is too close to fantacy for my likings. Fantacy is not real nor is it 'my thing'.

Where is the watching a sunset, gazing at an open fire, looking up at the stars late at night, seeing the northern lights, holding hands on a porch swing, crying on each others shoulder and laughing over silly things until you can't breath ......this is romance to me.
I love my cyberspace friendships but having a true romance is another story.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Allan C.
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 09:16 PM

Matt, the sad thing is that you don't seem to have experienced the good part of romance in the real world. I am sorry if that is the case. It is a beautiful thing. Yes, it can also rip out your heart and stomp on it when it goes sour. That is real life. Nobody ever said that life is easy. Nothing worth keeping alive is easy. EVERYTHING worth keeping alive hurts like hell when it is gone - even in cyberspace.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: JenEllen
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 10:42 PM

Once again, Allan captures it perfectly.

Matt, it doesn't have a damn thing to do with being one of the 'beautiful people'--whatever the hell THAT is--*bg*

There is a girl out there who will melt your heart. And if you are really lucky, you'll be in the same room when she does it. In the early days, you'll not be able to get enough of each other. Every grin she sends your way will make your socks roll up and down, and yours will do the same for her. Don't sell yourself short.

But this also means that you cannot confuse an occasional thought or note as real romance. This medium allows you to put your best forward, to be sure, but that's not where the fun of romance IS.

Internet romance would be the Tramp sending Lady an e-card of spaghetti. Real romance is that 'Bella Notte'. The two seperately, in and of themselves, are just fine. But I'd take a Ragu Nuzzle over the other any day of the week. I know someday you'll have the same choice.

~Luv, Elle

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jan 01 - 05:51 AM

But romance is not necessarily a good precursor to partnership, either. And at the end of the day, I'd rather have a good partner than a romance. Now, if I can have a good romance with a good partner, that's even better.

Sometimes romance can get in the way of finding out the important little things about a person that are crucial to a good partnership. In a romance, the focus is more on superficial considerations, the things that make the heart race. A good partner will love you when you're at your least appealing, as well as when you're at your most appealing.

I think that whatever method produces good results is a good thing. If some people find partners who are a good match for them on-line, and if good and satisfying relationships result, that's good. And good is good. We need more of it.

Carol

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Micca
Date: 21 Jan 01 - 06:37 AM

but also, lets not decry this medium as a means of keeping contact and sharing when you have already shared some of the face to face things , but are, for pragmatic reasons, separated in space. It means that you can carry on the dialogue, being close without being near, and also it encourages communication. Communication is the KEY to romance, and relationships, and lying is not communication, ever.
I have made many friends here, and some I have met face to face and the preparation that the dialogue from here has made to the the real space meetings was crucial and made it very easy and wonderful things.
" Love is you and love is me
Love is a prison and love is free
love's whats there when you're away from me
Love is....

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Matt_R
Date: 21 Jan 01 - 09:44 AM

Elle, I already found her.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: harpgirl
Date: 21 Jan 01 - 09:55 AM

...Noel Gallagher's getting divorced, Matt...

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Katcina
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 10:10 AM

Because of many circumstances, not the least of which are my rural home and the fact that I do not go to bars unescorted, I have found the internet to be a most satisfactory means of meeting people of both sexes. I have met from the worst to the best and everything in between and find that people are just people no matter where you may meet them. I take everything told to me with a large grain of salt and then I am seldom dissapointed in the meeting atleast. Occasionally there is a spark that requires more investigating and future meetings, but even if that doesn't happen it is always fun meeting new people and learning a little about what they are about. I learned long ago to never take life too seriously or you forget how to have fun, and that should include any internet experiences.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 10:26 AM

I know, Harpie. Him and Meg have been seperated for several months now. I read my Oasis news everyday. What that has to do with the internet...

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: harpgirl
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:20 PM

...I just meant Matt, that even when your love is by your side on a daily basis, staying together is a big struggle for at least half of the married people in the world.

Trying to maintain a relationship over the internet without being in that person's presence day to day is very difficult, I think. But I am rooting for you if that is what you are doing!...your friend, harp

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: hesperis
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 07:24 PM

I met someone in person, but communicated with him a lot over the net. It really deepened our understanding of each other. From the writings, we could see the values that the other holds. Sometimes, speech is confusing.

Sometimes people wish to believe that they have they same values you do, especially if they're attracted to you. If they're lying to themselves too, you often can't tell it from their body language. I am clearer in writing than in speech, in fact, in person I am rather quiet and shy.

And sometimes it is a struggle to keep any relationship going and still know who you are. That has nothing to do with internet or non-internet.

You are more likely to find love that's deep, if you are not desperate about it. If you can be happy by yourself, doing your own thing. Maybe you are still lonely, but you are ok with that. Then you can meet another person as an equal, but different, human being.

And sometimes love doesn't last. If it was a deep love once, it's still love.

If you are desperate, work on enjoying yourself for who you are, because nobody really wants someone who's desperate to be saved from their own company.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 07:47 PM

Him and her Matt?

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Matt_R
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 07:48 PM

Stow it, dimple-boy.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 08:07 PM

correct it grammar expert!

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Matt_R
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 08:12 PM

ok, "Meg and he." Satisfied?

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Jande
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 10:07 PM

So far, it looks like I'm in the 8% bracket. James and I "met" 2 years ago on a newsgroup I was a regular on and were immediately attacted to the heart and mind of one another.
A year and a half of correspondence followed and then a meeting was arranged. Neither of us knew that the spark would ignite us when we met. The intensity of it was a huge surprise. Neither of us has seen age thirty in a very long time. We've been living together now for about six months and are extremely happy.
As Hesperis knows, we've been through a lot of pain together, some bad luck and other things, and each time something happens, it renews and deepens our knowledge of what a fine person the other is, and how fortunate we are to have found one another.
I have met others who have formed deep relationships from meeting someone first on the net. I have also met some individuals who rush rashly into meetings and end up stung.
~ Jande

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 10:47 PM

Thats much better Matt.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 12:58 AM

Hesperis - you wrote: "nobody really wants someone who's desperate to be saved from their own company."

Wow! That ought to be sculptured in letters of gold and shown to all would-be romantics, specially the young and inexperienced! Well said!

*******

OKAY...at the risk of causing this thread to go TOO FAR...

(too many postings, I mean...)

Let me say...

INTERNET ROMANCE IS FRAUGHT WITH PERIL!!!

Case 1: (1996) Man in Alaska freezes lips to monitor screen while attempting to kiss jpeg of internet paramour in sub-zero conditions! Jpeg turns out to be phony anyway, and guy gets frostbitten lips for nothing. Turns out that real woman looks like Maggie Thatcher's dog!

Case 2: (1998) Man in Houston attempts intercourse with jpeg on computer screen, suffers static charge, and is unable to perform for 6 months afterwards! Woman in Hawaii does essentially the same thing and experiences continuous orgams for 14 hours and then spontaneously combusts at her computer terminal.

Case 3: (1999) 260 people in 13 different countries attempt to hold a virtual orgy over the net and precipitate a systems crash that shuts down over 15,000 servers, and interrupts an important liason between Bill Clinton and an unnamed member of the White House staff.

Case 4: (2000) Jilted Internet ex-lover distributes false jpegs purporting to show his ex-flame cavorting with Spaw in a hot tub filled with grape jello. Pictures turn out to be faked...fortunately...they were pretty tasteless. Downright offensive, in fact, specially because of the possums, which were digitally altered.

Moral: DON'T LOOK FOR LOVE ON THE NET!!! LIVE A REAL LOVE LIFE, NOT A VIRTUAL ONE!

Need I go on?

No, I thought not...

- LH

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 04:56 PM

Hey, I thought it was funny! Geez! Now I've gone and killed the thread. Phooey! I am well and truy depressed about this, and I am going to go off and sulk. Grrrrr...

- LH

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Allan C.
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 05:01 PM

Hey, now there's an idea. What if you started a thread about killing a thread? Wow! What a great concept!!

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 05:11 PM

Omigod, no...

Someone shut him up and do it NOW!!!!

BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!

- LH

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 05:11 PM

Or killed a thread about starting a thread. As a sort of counter-concept.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: GUEST,bflat
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 05:19 PM

Change one word and change the meaning all together. Try it. Drop "internet" from the thread name and we could make this a very long thread with a whole new set of experiences.

Ellen

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Matt_R
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 05:47 PM

I'm going to choose to ignore you for once, LH.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 04:44 AM

Good idea, Matt....most people do anyways.....

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 05:38 AM

I recently saw a magazine article listing handy hints on ending an unsuitable blind date, such as "take a newspaper to read at dinner". One of them was musical: "Get out a harmonica and play the blues when he/she starts telling you their troubles".
Herself was attracted to me by the size of my repertoire ( if not the quality of my performance -'Spaw, don't you dare misinterpret that) rather than my rugged good looks but different things work for different people. Internet "dating" is no real difference to starting off as penpals and I've known some successful marriages that started that way pre-'puters.
RtS

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Allan C.
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:56 AM

RtS brings up an interesting point. For centuries there have been successful relationships that have resulted from "pen pal" correspondence. While was as true then as it is now that people can always fabricate things about themselves, certainly not everyone did/does. There are countless stories of lonely male settlers in the American West who had such correspondences. Many of those resulted in successful marriages. Some Americans possibly have such a story within their families.

But the bottom line is that in all of the stories I have ever heard of pen pals or email buddies or chatroom romances, face-to-face meeting was ALWAYS the next step. That step was the make-it-or-break-it for the relationship. We are humans. We need to see one another. We need to touch and to be touched. We can only hang in (cyber)limbo for just so long before needing to pursue this undeniable urge.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 10:46 AM

Maybe that is how American settlers of the West got their name. They 'settled' for what they could get. Their needs were a lot different than our needs today. It was more of a working marriage (literally) they were seeking. Men & women needed each other to fulfill basic needs of existance. I think if I had been a settler way back when, I would have been much less particular about my mate than I am today. I would have checked his teeth to make sure he had a full set. Things like that.
Mind you knowing me, I may still have worn rhinestones on my longjohns

Little Neo

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 11:09 AM

Yes, Allan, I was thinking of ,among others,my cousin. Her best friend was married to an airman who was shot down and in prison camp in Germany in WW2. In one of his letters he asked if she had a friend who would like to write to one of his buddies who was a New Zealander. My cousin wrote until his release, they met, married in a couple of weeks, she went out to NZ with him (she was a Birmingham city girl) to his mixed farm, raised 3 daughters and they had over 50 hard but happy years together before Parkinson's took him .
RtS (no-one has ever accused one of my postings of being "interesting" before!)

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Homeless
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 01:31 PM

Matt-
Please keep an open mind as you read what I have to say. I don't mean it to be mean, but it is pretty harsh, and I'm not much for tact.
That being said, going back to one of your earlier comments...
That may be all fine and dandy for YOU people, but these things are TOTALLY foreign to me. Live and in person SUCKS. It does nothing for me whatsoever. What's so great about watching people walk away from you all the time? Plus, I recently foundout that a lot of people 'assumed' I was gay. So, I wish all you "beautiful people" would stop knocking something you don't understand.

Life sucks for you sport 'cause you ain't got the balls to face it. Period. Remember the turmoil you went thru leading up to the Ren Faire? How it was so bad, you'd never driven that far, parents wouldn't let you, etc.? And the shit everyone was blowing you for it? Really SUCKED didn't it?
Question: How was the fair?

It is a real pisser when people walk away or reject you. It's even worse when someone laughs in your face. I've been there, I know.
But the question I'd be asking is "Is it really everyone who walks away? And, if so, why?"

I've been accused of being gay because I never went out women. I've never gone on date with a guy, but I've never been accused of being hetero because of it, go figure.
When I have spoken with women, e.g. clerks in stores, their husbands have accused me of having affairs with them. Hell, I'd never even gotten closer to them than 5 feet away. But over time I've learned that my reaction should be, "So fucking what?" I'm not going to let my happiness rely on what other people think of me.

And don't fall into the whiny adolescent trap of "no one understands me." Last night I went down to the local college where there was ballroom dance going on. What I know about ballroom dance could be written on the back of a business card. I spent the first half of the night too chickenshit to ask any of the girls to dance, because I knew from watching that they were infinitely better than I. Finally, one of the hosts noticed and came over and forcefully prompted me to ask a young lady to dance. Once I got cojones to actually get out on the floor we had fun. Granted I didn't know much beyond the basic, but what we did was enjoyable.

I've lived my whole life fearful of dealing with other people, and still go thru it. But when I do finally overcome my fears and act, I enjoy it.

BTW - the only place you'll ever see "beautiful people" is in some fiction they put on the TV.

What's your life expectancy? You got another 50 years or so, right? Are you gonna waste it whining about how awful things are, or are you gonna act to make them better?

You've got a lot of people here that care about you. Me, for one. Tho I must say that I'm sick of every other one of your posts being whining about one thing or another. But all these people have a LOT of diverse experience that you could learn from, if you just ask. But your first step is to break out of that little room you've locked your mind in.

Carpe diem, my friend.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Matt_R
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 01:41 PM

Well!

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Homeless
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 02:16 PM

When you decide to quit riding your high-horse, read it again.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Bert
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 05:39 PM

Hey Mrs Duck, I met Tree in a pub. Read all about it here

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 06:46 PM

You ignore me at your peril, Matt. :-)

As for you, Amergin, there is no such word as "anyways". The correct term is "anyway". And if you see something that's far away from you it's NOT "a long ways off", it's "a long way off". Hah! I can be snide and snotty with the best of them...So there, you insidious knave!

Now back to Matt - Actually, Homeless makes some good points. I had an utterly miserable time with the opposite sex all through my teens and twenties...for a variety of reasons, but mostly just lack of confidence and lack of experience...due to previous lack of confidence and experience...you get the idea...

Females are great at spotting lack of confidence, and they tend to go the other way when they do.

Solutions? Well, the solution is obvious, but that doesn't mean it's easy. You just gotta bite the bullet and try, try, try, and then try again. Chances are you will be rejected many times (I certainly was), called gay by various idiots who have nothing better to do than denigrate someone they think is vulnerable in some way, and that generally you will have disappointments.

We all did. Most of us still do from time to time, and maybe more often than not.

Nothing really valuable is generally all that easy to achieve. On the other hand, being a loudmouth jerk who calls somebody else gay because he doesn't have a girlfriend, is very easy to do. That's why the biggest (and most insecure) jerks in school do it routinely. They're probably deathly afraid someone might think THEY are gay. The sad truth is that most men who are gay are way smarter and more interesting than those aforesaid jerks, and can talk and think circles around them. Ironical, isn't it? Not that it's of any help to you, but I do think it's highly ironical...

You just gotta roll with the punches, Matt.

And if you feel that nobody understands you...well, geez, I still feel like that on certain days...but what the hell, why should they understand me? I'm weird. Harmless, but weird. I accept that they don't understand me. Hell, most of them don't even understand themselves!

Oh...the best way to meet a great girl and form a great relationship is to have common interests with her. You like music? Go where people are playing it. You like a sport? Go play it. You like books? Go there. Whatever. It helps to have common ground to work from, and gets you a lot farther than fixating on a certain type of "look" and falling in love at "first sight" with some girl in the cafeteria about whom you know nothing.

Hey, but what do I know? I struck out so many times that I oughta be in the baseball hall of fame by now...in the greatest losers of all time section, that is. Ah! The sorrows of a squandered youth!!! Too soon old, and too late smart, that's what they say.

- LH

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 06:57 PM

LH, there ya go with the generalisations, again!**BG** You said, "Females are great at spotting lack of confidence, and they tend to go the other way when they do."

Believe it or not, a lot of women lack confidence and men are just as likely to spot that and run the other ways(lol), too. But, then, they are often intimidated by women who do have confidence and, so, still run the other way!

kat

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Allan C.
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 07:01 PM

While I see a certain amount of wisdom (perhaps a lot) in what has been said in the past few posts, I can't help but feel that this is not the way to present these thoughts. No matter your intentions, Matt cannot help but feel picked upon when such comments are placed out here for the world to see.

Sure, whatever wisdom might be contained within could quite possibly be good for many of us to hear. But directing it publicly at Matt is, in my opinion, just not right.

If anyone has more to say on this subject, kindly PM your remarks to Matt. If you want to say something to me about it, PM me.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: hesperis
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 07:15 PM

Lack of confidence is ok. Shyness is actually sort-of appealing, if the guy just lets himself be awkward, and doesn't run from you because he thinks you're judging him........ Lack of basic self esteem is totally not ok.
Shyness is a different thing from low self esteem, but is often mistaken for it.

Putting everybody else on a pedestal, and yourself way down in the mud, is not ok. (And it's not shyness!)

Seriously, get a life! And I don't mean that in a bad way. Just start treating yourself like you're a greeat guy to hang out with. Make yourself wonderful meals, because you're special too.

You know what the problem is? Perfectionism. People either think that they have to be perfect, or they think that everybody ELSE has to be perfect, or both. And that is just a sign that, no matter how much you may WANT to be in a relationship, you are not ready for it yet.

You know what the other problem is? In this society, people consider it RUDE to think that one's own self is special. Like it subtracts from other people's brilliance or something! As if nobody else can be special if one person is special already..... That's just totally dumb! If you really think you're "all that", you spread specialness to all the people around you. (HEL-lo!)

And you know what else? There are always going to be people who don't like you. There are also always going to be people who really like you. Who are you going to hang around with? More importantly, whose opinion are you going to care about?

L I V E   W I T H   I T !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 07:15 PM

You're right, Kat. Plenty of women lack confidence. Most of them, in fact. I was just looking at it from the lonely male's perspective. Even the unconfident girls seem to like the confident guys....generally.

And, hey, I take pride in my tendency to generalize. Like Bob Dylan, I'm good at "keeping things vague" (Joan Baez said that...). :-D

- LH

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 07:20 PM

Most of them?!!! C'mon, LH, give me a break!!

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: hesperis
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 07:29 PM

Most _people_ lack confidence in at least one area of their lives... sex appeal, love, and money have to top the list, though.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 07:41 PM

Well allan, I'm not trying to prolong this, but a good story is always a good story and even Ol' Hawk will appresiate this one since Dylan's in it. I also have talked with Bert and we have some things in common outside of the CRS. When I met Karen, I immediately knew. There was something inside her that James Dickey described once as a "small flame, dimly flickering, that I had been looking for....and when I met it, I married it." Our meeting is well documented around here.....'nuff said.

HOWEVER........I ran across this story on an old thread somebody refreshed and its worth repeating. We can all miss the chances in life through shyness or other idiocy......Spaw included. From the other thread:

This thread is a hoot isn't it? It reminds me of a friend's courting experience. I am certainly no expert on courting as I didn't marry til I was 36. But I was pretty good at pick-ups generally. Then again, I'm not overly bright either as I will never forget a time when I was about 30, the money was rolling in nicely, and I was out for a drive in my yellow 'Vette roadster. It's a beautiful summer evening and I stop at a light. At the crosswalk is a lovely and leggy young thing...corn fed, midwestern prime. Not a hooker mind you, just a nice suburban girl with a pretty smile and a nice bod. She looks at me with a smile and says, "Hi...that's a really nice car." And boy did I have a comeback: "Uh yeah, I think so. Thanks." That was it. Nothing more. If I'd had a gun handy, I'd have shot myself right there. Is it possible she later related her story about this to a friend who came up with Homer Simpson? Me and the 'Vette just slunk off into the night.

Which brings me to my friend. If I couldn't get them with 'Vettes, there was no way a folk song was gonna' do the job. However, my friend Mac, at about this same time (age 30) meets his future wife and begins courting her with Dylan lyrics for Chrissake. He doesn't play any instrument, doesn't really sing, basically just a fan and she had no idea who Dylan was to begin with. And Mac can't use any vaguely romantic Dylan lyric...NOOOO!!! He's courting her with lines like:

"I'm a good ol' boy but I been sniffin' too many eggs"

"Idiot wind. Blowin' every time you move your teeth"

"Dogs run free, why not me?"

Twenty years later, they have nice kids and a loving marriage...but somewhere here there is some brain damage or something I don't understand. Can one of you romantic devils explain any of this to me?

One thing though........You can't have a batting average if you never take go to bat.

Spaw

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:03 PM

Well, LH, I thanks you for correcting my grammar...now as I'm sure alot of folks here knows, I is just a poor North Idaho boy who's grammar was learned him by the Canadians who would go south on day trips.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:03 PM

Good story, Spaw. I was always avoiding going to bat, cos I figured there was no hope anyway! Talk about a self-defeating attitude. Then I'd finally work my nerve up (after months of slowing going mad over some female) and try some tentative tactic...and it would totally not work. Aaarrggghhh! Then I'd retreat back into my shell and sing bitter Dylan lyrics. I almost started to hate women, but not near as much as I hated myself...

I hated the other men too, specially the ones who went out with the girls I liked.

It was just one big hate-fest.

Okay, enough of that...I'm getting depressed just thinking about it.

Kat - Yeah, most of them. No apologies. I don't mean they lack confidence in every way...just in this way or that way. In my experience, 97% of the women in the world, for example, think their nose isn't shaped right...or their hair isn't curly enough...or straight enough...or thick enough...or it's too thick. They commiserate with their girlfriends for hours about this kind of stuff. They wonder why they keep going out with jerks. I've heard them. That's lack of confidence in a specific area. The girl might be entirely confident in several other areas.

Doubts? We've all got 'em, to some extent.

Like I'm feeling insecure right now, cos I don't think I spelled "commiserate" right, and I don't have a dictionary handy. Aaaargh!

I'm gonna talk to my shrink about it tomorrow, if possible. :-)

- LH

p.s. Yeah, I know there's an online dictionary somewhere, but I don't know where, and I'm too lazy to look for it right now. Double Aaarghh!

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Matt_R
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:06 PM

They don't think I'm gay because of the fact that I've never been within 10 feet of a woman. It's because of my voice. All I get is "You sound gay" "Are you gay, you sound like it." And DAMN I feel like 1000 maggots are eating away at my stomach right now.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:09 PM

Matt, the reason they pick on you is only because they are insecure about they're own sexuality....people hate that which they see in themselves.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:11 PM

bert,

I can't get your clicky to work on my computer. Could you post a URL or something? I'd like to read that. Thanks.

Carol

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Bert
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:20 PM

Try this http://www.mudcat.org/bert/songs/well.html

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:25 PM

Thanks, bert.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Bert
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:27 PM

OK here tiz in text...

I sat on the bar stool with never a care
I didn't know that I sat in her chair
That's when I fell in love
She sat down beside me and she cussed me out
I didn't know what she was talking about
That's when I fell in love

    Love, love, love oh love
    I looked in her eyes and what did I see
    I saw an angel looking at me
    That's when I fell in love

She called me a liar I proved she was wrong
she bought me a drink and I sang her a song
That's when I fell in love
We sat in the bar 'till they closed it down
then hand in hand we walked through the town
That's when I fell in love

    Love, love, love oh love
    I looked in her eyes and what did I see
    I saw a woman looking at me
    That's when I fell in love

At two in the morning we sat in the park
and sang to each other alone in the dark
That's when I fell in love
we sat the talking the rest of the night
'till the mountains turned red in the dawn's early light
That's when I fell in love

    Love, love, love oh love
    I looked in her eyes and what did I see
    I saw my true love looking at me
    That's when I fell in love

    Love, love, love oh love
    I looked in her eyes and what did I see
    I saw my angel, my woman, my true love
    looking at me

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:42 PM

When we look into a mirror, we see two people
Our best friend, and, our worst enemy. (me)

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Allan C.
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:58 PM

Could someone please click a continuation of this thread. It is getting really difficult to load. BTW, it appears that we have gone way past Internet Romance. So why not just call the next one Romance?

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: hesperis
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 10:12 PM

Sorry Allan, it's named similarly. People recognize threads better that way.

Internet romance part 2