BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 04:02 PM

Jeez, Lizzie, if you want to here some really 'politically incorrect' stuff and some truly sick humour, try spending a few days with a bunch of nurses. Particularly those skilled and dedicated individuals working at the really sharp end of nursing...

The other thing that occurs to me is that this so-called war on people's freedom of speech, expression and action does not appear to have had the slightest effect on you or the countless other forum contributors, bloggers, letter writers to local papers, pub philosophers and so on who fill acres of public space with complaints about being silenced by the censorious ways of the politically correct.

In that way, you are clearly the perfect argument against yourself ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 03:51 PM

Dan Schatz, I'd like to echo others comments regarding the informed depth, insight and sensitivity of your postings on this thread. Mudcat seems to breed a strange dichotomy of yay sayers or nay sayers regarding spiritual matters. Always good to see a genuine, intelligent and balanced post in response to such matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 03:45 PM

No, no, no, no, no.......

We *CANNOT* live in a society where we all have to analyse what comes out of our mouths before we say things, just to meet the bizarre 'rules' of the over pedantic PK brigade!

olafr....If someone needed help, I'd give it. I'm well aware of those who would be highly incensed if I offered to help them when they didn't want it. Good heavens above!! I nursed my father, a gentle, but proud man. I had a terrible stutter as a child, so knew the anger when people finished my sentences for me. That has now gone, but hell, I'll stand there for 30 minutes whilst someone gets out what they want to say, rather than say it for them, unless they want me to.

But this is being totally over the top. ALL she said was something very mild...and WHOOOOOOOOOSH! people have fallen over sideways in absolute horror, accusing her of this and that and everything else!

I get real miffed at being made to appear a right dingbat, purely because I don't do this 'over-analysing' and 'ah, yes but what did she *really* mean?' part.

Megan....

Gawd, is NOT God.

Daft ol' biddies are just that, Daft ol' biddies. It does not mean that ALL older people are classed that way by me. Good Gawd, I'm often a Daft Ol' Biddy meself these days!

I was blessed, yes....****BLESSED**** to have a father who taught me to laugh at myself and at many situations. It has got me through the most extraordinary things in life, some terrible situations. Political Correctness though, has removed humour. It's removed joy. It's removed the naturalness of life.

We can no longer speak freely, unless we stick to the script.
We can no longer do our jobs, unless we sign up to all the rules...

olafr, if I'd fallen off the ladder whilst decorating, I'd have sat in hospital thinking to myself, "You daft ol' biddy! Now look what you've gorn and done!" and smiled through the pain. I'd certainly have not once even entertained the idea of suing my bosses, or the people who made the ladders, or the paintbrushes, the paint or the wobbly carpet.

It just HAPPENS!!

When I left work to have my first child, I didn't even put in for that thingummyjig bit where your employers have to keep your job open and pay you for so many months. Why? Because why the hell should they have to pay out because I've been blessed enough, and made the decision, to have children?

Cor, loveaduck!

WHAT has happened to us all????? It's like we've all been crop sprayed with the Silly Gene, where no-one questions, or dares to break the rules, or stand up and say "This is such a load of bullshit!" Noooooo...everyone walks round pedantically analysing every last bit of everything.."She looked at me funny!" "He said something that really meant THIS!" "They called me a name I don't like!" "I won't ever recover from being offered a prayer!"

Oh, purleeeeeeze!

I worked with many, many patients from the Middle East. Always when leaving they'd smile, hold their hands out to me, then touch their hearts and say "Inshallah"....Blimey! They BLESSED me!!! And they kinda blessed me to their God! Corks! What a thing to do, eh! Hell's bells but I should have taken each of them to court, in this New Way of Thinking!   NOT.

I will NEVER live my life on a straight-laned motorway, only ever going in the same direction as everyone else, without deviating from the route in any way!

I will always turn off the Motorway of Political Correctness, into the country lanes, filled with poppies, and stop off in the villages, talk to the post mistress, visit the pub, smile at the children, tell someone how pretty they look or what a lovely smile they have...I may even hug complete strangers, should the need or the situation arise!

I will never take umbridge at elderly gents who have twinkly eyes and who smile a knowing smile, nor report someone who may be so kind as to ask me to share in a prayer, if I'm ever in the position of being housebound.

I look after my ex-mother-in-law (???) who's 94 and I know that if a nurse had said that to her, she'd have just said "Thank you, ducks, how kind" and left it at that....

Gee Whizz! All this namby pamby behaviour that goes on these days makes my blood fair boil!

Here, one of the new breed of NHS Nurses guaranteed NEVER to break The Rules or offer you a cup of tea or a small prayer to go with it!

Guaranteed never to upset!

Sheesh!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 03:37 PM

Whoops - suspended, not fired.

Bruce, I think there's a false dichotomy in that last post. Even in those Christian religions that require proselytizing, it's generally handled in a specific way at a specific time. All Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, are required to go door to door at some point. (The pop-star Prince, for example, met his obligation by driving to one random house in his limousine and knocking on the door.) I don't know of any denomination that requires its members to spread the faith AT WORK.

True, Moslems are required to pray five times a day, and accommodations should be made. That does not mean that a Moslem nurse or doctor has the right to pray in a patient's room when the patient is there, whether the patient wants it or not. Such prayer is generally done privately or with other Moslems. This is not equivalent to praying with (or at) patients.

I think many or most people, when asked if others might pray for them, would likely say yes. But not all. Fewer would say yes when asked if others could pray WITH them, and some may feel very uncomfortable about that.

OK, now I've really said my piece.

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 03:25 PM

Hmm...

A Moslim has an religious obligation to pray 5 times a day, and there are supposed to be accomadations to working conditions to allow that. Businsses are fined for not allowing that.

A Christian ( of certain sects ) has an religious obligation to tell others about Christ, and can be fired for doing so. Businesses are fined for NOT firing them.


Now I understand.


I have always been asked if I wanted others to pray for me, and I usually said "sure!". I do not care who they are praying to: the idea that that person wanted to spend energy and good-will to the universe to benefit me seemed a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: PoppaGator
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 03:06 PM

Dan ~ excellent and interesting post

Kat ~ "suspended pending investigation," in my view, is tantamount to bieng fired if the suspension is without pay. If they're paying her during the investigation, that's good for her but kind of a bad deal for the taxpayer.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 02:57 PM

Well put Dan. What Kat said.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 02:33 PM

Thank yo, Dan, always good to hear your voice in such matters. You have my respect and gratitude.

One note, people, the nurse was NOT fired. She was suspended pending investigation.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 01:05 PM

goatfell wrote: "and non of this and goatfell wrote...I just hate it. find someone else to bully"

I'd hardly call formatting a response so it was more apparent/immediate which post/poster is being replied to 'bullying'.

The quotes I'm making are your words. I'm not editing them or taking them out of context - they are exactly how you've written them. I've done to this to all my responses on this thread (and on the board too), so it's not as if you're being singled out for my 'bullying' either.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 01:00 PM

This is a long thread and I've only been able to skim much of it. I hesitate to add my two cents into such a contentious area, but here it is anyway. It's long and rambling and I hope it makes some sense. I promise it is written with deep respect for people and beliefs on all sides of this debate.

I am a Unitarian Universalist minister by profession, and a religious humanist in my belief. I have served in congregational, hospital and hospice settings. What I say comes not from my own religious beliefs, but from my professional work as a chaplain in clinical settings, serving people of all faiths.

I don't know whether it was right that the nurse in this case was fired. Since the article relies almost entirely on her statements, it's impossible to know what really happened. She may believe that she was not being overbearing, but the patient's experience may have been very different. Her previous habit of passing out prayer cards is a bit of a red flag, but we just don't know.

If a patient requests prayer, then it is absolutely appropriate for the medical practitioner, if they feel comfortable, to offer one. It is equally appropriate for a practitioner to pray on their own, in private and in their own tradition, for any patient - that is a sign of care and a way of focusing the practitioner's energy on behalf of those she or he serves. The patient need never know - that kind of prayer is personal.

When a practitioner offers prayer or initiates a conversation about their own religion it crosses a line for several reasons. As some have pointed out, some patients are vulnerable, and may not feel comfortable in asking the person who is giving them care to stop talking about a subject which is obviously deeply important to them. As others have said, refusing a request for prayer risks offending the person doing the asking, and that leads to a lack of trust in the medical care received.

But it's more than that. Even chaplains are trained at length to avoid imposing our religion on patients - it is the job of a professional chaplain to meet the patient where they are and journey with them, even if their faith is very different from our own. (In my old hospital, chaplains did not wear religious symbols at work - again, our job was to be open to whatever patients might choose to project on us.) If asked about our own religion, we of course respond - but to initiate such conversations would be to meet our needs and not those of the patients.

True, chaplains may offer prayer, and our very presence initiates a conversation about religion. But a patient can always tell a chaplain to go away. The chaplains, in fact, are the ONLY hospital staff a patient can tell to go away. A patient has no such privileges over the nurses, doctors and other staff who come to see them.

Oddly enough, in hospitals it is often the office of spiritual care that will educate the other staff to be very cautious in bringing up their own religious beliefs. Chaplains receive years of training to be sensitive to the issues surrounding religion in clinical settings, and to practice our profession responsibly. A well-meaning staff person has not received that training, and may inadvertently cross any number of boundaries. (This happens a lot - for example, it is often a problem in neo-natal intensive care units that nurses will baptize the babies without the parents' knowledge or consent. One of our jobs used to be to remove the stray pieces of tracts and religious propaganda that people would leave around the hospital. My favorite was a pamphlet on the urinals in the mens' room that said in bold letters "DO YOU KNOW WHERE YOU'RE GOING?" But I digress.)

Christianity is not being singled out here - as someone pointed out, a Wiccan offering to do a ritual would probably have been disciplined sooner and more harshly. Someone offering to heal with crystals would not be tolerated. But the fact is that very few Wiccans (or Muslims, or Jews, or New-Agers, or Hindus) would make such an offer, because they make no assumption that others are likely to practice religion in the way they do. Christians, used to being in the majority, often assume that either (a) others are at least nominally Christian or (b) even non-Christians appreciate petitionary prayer.

The latter is an especially important part of this. The ritual of petitionary prayer, while not exclusive to Christianity, is much more central to it than in many other religions. The very act of offering a prayer may be seen as imposing a certain set of religious values on a patient.

Spoken prayers are often given in the language of "We," and tends to assume aggreement with its statements. (One example would be Rev. Rick Warren's prayer at the Obama inauguration, which was more sermon than prayer, and ended up with the Lord's Prayer, a specifically Christian formulation.) It takes a good deal of self-awareness and introspection to offer a spoken prayer that does not have some element of "preaching," rather than simply "praying."

The best bedside prayers come out of the context of a visit, and largely reflect the patient's own words and needs. For example, a prayer requesting that God heal a patient may be innapprioate for a patient on hospice, who is coming to terms with not being healed, and whose need is to be at peace with dying. Likewise, such a prayer would be inappropriate for a patient who has a life-changing injury, such as a spinal cord injury. In the Christian tradition, it is often normal to pray for forgiveness from sin - is that appropriate when it's coming from a doctor or nurse - or for that matter, from your chaplain? (The answer is, only if the patient has talked about their need for forgiveness and in no other circumstance.)

A well-meaning person, praying as they would for themselves, might easily stray into any of these difficult areas - areas that might be emotionally and spiritually painful for a patient.

I absolutely agree with those who say that spiritual care is part of healing, and medical care in general. A patient's spiritual frame of mind has a huge impact not only on their direct physical condition, but also on how they will approach self-care. Precisely because it is so important, it needs to be handled sensitively. Again, the question is, "Whose need am I meeting, here?" If the patient has not been talking about religion, then the answer is probably, "My own."

If a medical professional believes that a patient has a real need for spiritual care, but the patient has not expressed such a need, there is an easy way out. The medical professional could politely suggest - and ONLY suggest, not insist - that the patient might want to talk with a chaplain, or a member of the clergy in their own tradition. The staff member could even offer to make a referral - with the patient's permission. But unless the patient has broached the subject, it is potentially harmful to the patient's well-being to have medical staff coming in and offering prayers or other rituals in their own tradition.

I respect that the nurse in this case apparently asked first and accepted "no" for an answer. It would have been better to speak with a chaplain, or simply to keep religion out of it entirely. Without more sides to the story, there simply isn't a way to know if the provider acted correctly in dismissing her or not.

As I said at the outset, this is long and rambling. But I hope it helps provide some perspective.

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Big Norman Voice
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 01:00 PM

When you're single and your friends are all married, they encourage you to get married too.
When you are childless, and surrounded by the fecundity of others, they encourage you to join in. 'Have kids, you'll fell fulfilled' [sic]
People who have found religion also suffer from this urge to share. Often whether you wish to do so or not.
A drowning person will clutch at straws they say. They will also clutch at anything else, and if it happens to be you they grab, you may go down with them.
Keep your personal beliefs to yourself!
One person's good news, is another's bad tidings.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 12:26 PM

Since when has this been a christian country? For it to be a christian country those within it would have to lead a christian life. do comments like "who died and made you God? " and "Gawd, we've lost the plot haven't we.(doesnt it say somewhere Thou shalt not take the Lords name in vane)" "Bloody Little Hitlers!" and calling an older person a "Daft old biddy" actually set a good christian example?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 12:05 PM

I love all religons I tihnk that they all have great bits and also bad parts as well if some wants to practise their faith good ahead I don't have any problem with that and I do Like Muslims and every other faith so it wasn't a dig at the muslims or anyother faith if they want to worship whoever then that's up to them it just eejits of these faith that I don't like including CHristains you've got to remember a Christian is somtime narrow minded in certain things that they can't see the bigger picture I try and see the bigger picture but I sometimes get it wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 11:59 AM

LOL, Spleen Cringe!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 11:06 AM

Okay, Goatfell, fair enough. I'm not a petty person, so I'll just apologise for getting you all wrong. I tend to assume that all this "it's christian country, 'you' should follow 'our' rules," palaver is a coded dig at other religions, such as Islam.

And just for the record, I have no problem with people practising their faith. Just not mixing it up with doing their job (unless they're some sort of priest... but at least you can usually see them coming, what with the fancy dress).

If you're going to pray for me, I'll return the favour by thinking a positive rational thought for you. Fair deal?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 11:01 AM

and non of this and goatfell wrote...I just hate it. find someone else to bully

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 11:01 AM

Nickhere, no need to apologise. I read the same book.:-)

I give thanks to the Universe/Cosmic/Great Spirit/Mother-Father God of my Heart/whatever one chooses to call "it."

I am picky about the wording of my thanks givings because I believe in the power of words, written, spoken, and thought, and that is one reason why I do NOT want unknown prayers said for me. I believe we can "program" our subconsciousness, just like a computer because it believes anything we put into it, so that it works to manifest whatever we say is Truth. No, I do not believe the power of other folks' prayers can harm me esp. BUT, as it is an intensely personal thing for me, I prefer to keep it private.

The person doing such may have no idea what is best for me or what is needed. Unless I know they are turning their will over to the "Cosmic" by using the thanks for this or something better for the highest good of all concerned I don't want their prayers. I had too many years of ultra-religious family members who *thought* they knew what was best and would tell me they were "praying really hard" for whatever. That right there is wrong, to me. To "pray hard" sets up a negative environment for the subconsciousness to bring about.

So, that's all I am going to say. If I ask, then prayers, good thoughts, etc. are most welcome. If not, no thanks. IMO, the nurse should not have offered unless the patient requested it. In all my years as a nurses' aide and EMT, I never imposed my beliefs on any of my patients and if I'd been told specifically NOT to do by my employer, I sure wouldn't have gone on to do so and I say that as a non-Christian, so it has nothing to do with what religion one might be.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 10:48 AM

well Spleen Cringe I disagree with youin that I have never said anything bad about muslims i bet that there are good and bad in everyone but as for you Spleen Cringe and your athiest frinds I'll say a wee pray for you. if people in this country want to prctise their faiths then let them do it and let us Christains do it as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 10:42 AM

Haven't read all this thread. But what would disturb me most strongly about a situation such as this "praying for you" lark is IMO there is a potential sub-text of proselytisation.

No knowledge about the case in question, and as it happens I do believe that faith healing, as well as positive vibes or whatever, can be genuinely beneficial. But I do loathe the way some religions go out of their way to make converts of the weak and vulnerable. It's a slippery slope from allowing members of secular professions to dabble in spiritual ministering, to allowing them to proselytise and seek out converts from those dependent upon them.

And what if the situation were a Nurse who also happened to be a Witch, were to offer to do a spell on behalf of a devout Catholic. Probably not a lot of difference in the the possible metaphysical equations.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 10:40 AM

Actually, Mrs Duck, I think if I was blinded and buggered every time I cursed, I might end up seeking divine intervention...

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 10:37 AM

Nice post Ian. As an "allied health professional" myself, I'd say you've hit the nail squarely on the head.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 10:34 AM

As an atheist who does say 'oh god' sometimes I would like to point out I also use phrases like 'blimey' and 'bugger me' and don't actually require any of these in reality!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Musket
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 10:28 AM

So many people in this thread are saying "if she was of another faith rather than Christian, the management would not have had a go at her."

So easy to slip off the tongue or keyboard, yet so wrong.

One of the main reasons why religion has its place in certain aspects of healthcare and not others is to allow people to work or be cared for without awkward connotations. Yes, you may well feel that you are a muslim or christian or whatever all the time, but clinicians have a duty they all understand as professionals, not to let it interfere with their duty of care.

If they did, then some doctors or nurses would not feel it appropriate to talk to or touch members of the opposite sex, or may not feel it appropriate to give contraceptive or abortion care. Consent of a female patient would only count if it was given by their husband or father in many faiths...

Luckily, clinicians, and I mean doctors, nurses and allied health professionals have a professional duty of care that is not subject to religious view, and the NHS employer, together with the accreditation body that governs their registration (Nursing and Midwifery Council in this case) give the legal right to practice their skills subject to conditions. This nurse was clearly breaking those conditions.

Just out of interest, a staff grade Muslim doctor at a local trust had his hours (and therefore pay) reduced when he kept patients waiting at his Friday clinic as he dropped everything for Friday prayers. This was not acceptable as he was contracted to be working to the end of the clinic.

I know it can seem wrong that a kind offer to pray for a patient can get you in trouble, but nurses are professionals with a code of conduct to work by, and she entered the patient's house as a nurse, not a well wisher.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 09:46 AM

Goatfell:"who died and made you God? Spleen Cringe"

Pithy riposte, Goatfell. Original, too. Hey, if you disagree with me, though, please just say. No need to assume I have any supernatural powers.

By the way, isn't this traditionally a heathen country? Aren't the Christians just johnny-come-latelys chancing their arms with their new-fangled religions?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 09:27 AM

Goatfell wrote: "but that is these people that believe in Politcal Correctness, don't upset the other faith except Christians I rember when Britian was a christian country not anymore"

I'd say that it was still culturally Christian, but the amount of bums on seats every Sunday tell another story. Is it a country of practising Christians? I'd hedge a bet that it's not. I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, just pointing to the reality of the situation.

All religious discrimination is wrong and I do think that Christians are often targeted in one sense (Dawkins et al), but I don't think it's similar to some of the stick that a lot of Muslims and Hindus get - for example - for their beliefs. For every incident of Muslims getting some kind of 'privilige' over Christians, I bet there's more than a dozen cases of them getting flak for their beliefs outside the walls of politically correct offices &c. I wouldn't like to be a Muslim in this country any time that there's an incident of 'Islamic terrorism' somewhere in the world.

Also, the idea of 'Britain being a Christian country' underlines the idea that Christianity is kind of the default belief. No matter how much Christians think they're maligned, at least their beliefs are accepted as being a 'real' religion - a lot of non-Christian beliefs don't even get that courtesy.


"But this is what is happening to Britian which is a Christian country well suppose to be but we the ones that are born here and are Christain we are not allowed to pray in public but anyone else of any other faith is. that what gets me".

This story is set in an old woman's private home - her house - that's not really about Christians not being allowed to pray in public. Also, I don't think I've ever seen anyone of a non-Christian faith praying in public. Where does this happen exactly?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 09:18 AM

Nickhere wrote: "For those who want their pound of flesh, the nurse broke the rules and should pay, no argument there.

But it seems this is about more than breaking rules, it's about whether the rules are justified or if they are more of a problem than that which they prevent. Afterall, do we sit back happily when a grandma is sent to jail for not paying her TV licence? "Got what was coming to her, the old wagon!" Seems a bit harsh to me, even if she broke the law".

No, that's a different argument entirely and it's not really what this story is about. Perhaps a suspension and investigation was harsh, but the nurse knew what the rules of conduct were in the first place, and if for whatever reason she didn't - which I'd find hard to believe - she was certainly made aware of it the after her earlier warning.

I'm not sure the analogy with the TV license works either. One example is a woman doing something she had already been told not to do during her employer's time, the other is about an old woman not paying a bill. You might want to try and stifle this with claims of 'political correctness gawn maaad!' but it's not really about what you're claiming.


olddude wrote: "you are so right, and in the US we wonder why people get so close off and don't react when they see a crime or help another in need. It is because of the price you pay like the nurse.   Don't want to hijack the thread but here is a story".

It's not political correctness that stops me getting involved, it's because twice I've had a weapon (a gun and a knife) waved in my face for trying to help - the second time actually by the person I was trying to help.

If I lived in the U.S. I'd be even more worried about the gun issue. It's not about cowardice (if it was, I wouldn't have ever tried to intervene in the first place) just acknowledging the fact I'm not Superman and invulnerable to guns and knives.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 09:15 AM

who died and made you God? Spleen Cringe

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 09:14 AM

Lizzie Cornish wrote:"Nooooooo.... This isn't about religion as such. This is about KINDNESS!

She only meant it as kindness, NOTHING else! She wasn't 'trying to force her beliefs down the patient's throat'...and it stuns me, and worries the absolute beejayzus out of me that some folks can't see this".


This just highlights the fact that you're not grasping an important point here - which is repeated by lumping your examples about decorating and helping people up steps &c in with this particular story. Kindness and good deeds are generally welcomed by everyone - even the most misanthropic of us. However, when that kindness or good deed is couched or framed in specific religious expression - which it was in this case, it wasn't just kindness - it has 'extra' implications; implications that aren't necessarily welcomed. That religious expression can be any religion - it's not about marginalising Christianity per se.

The other things you've listed might appear to be the same but they're not. Each has unique issues around it.

As weird as it might seem to you, some people are happier to struggle with something. I've known people in wheelchairs who genuinely do get aggrieved with people offering to help like that as they think it robs them of what independence they do have. I'm not in a wheelchair but, as someone who has had a chronic stammer through various parts of his life, there's nothing more infuriating than someone 'trying to help' by finishing off my sentences.

Serious question, as much as I hate the litigation culture that we've imported from the U.S., what would happen if you did get sued, Lizzie? Also, what would have happened if you'd had a serious accident whilst you were decorating the consulting room and treatment room? Not a daft question as it's more likely than you think. Or you perhaps if you accidentally damaged some expensive equipment? How would you stand there?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 09:13 AM

britain is/was a christian country I mean if it was islamic country then I would be obeying the islamic rules but I'm not and there is no such thing as an atheist because they pray to God by sying OH GOD if they didn't believe in God why metion his name

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Darowyn
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 09:09 AM

If you don't believe in a divine force, then you must believe that prayer can do no harm.
If you do believe in a Divine force, you must believe that prayer does some good.
Which of these positions could you hold which could possibly lead to being offended?
How do anyone else's prayers impose anything on my heathen philosophy?
The Nurse in question, by the way, is a Bank Nurse (temporary staff), and is not to be employed by that Primary Care Trust in future (Radio interview with an official of the PCT on BBC Radio 4 yesterday).
That is as near to being fired as makes no difference.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 08:48 AM

Of course from the article we only have the nurses side of what happened we were not there.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 08:47 AM

"...the fact of people praying for me, and the profound effect that that knowledge had on me, that convinced me of that power

You just made my point for me...you believed in its power."

Well actually, I didn't Kat! The point I was making (obviously not very well) was that I didn't believe in its power before my illness, and that its effect on me and the way I felt was utterly unexpected, and profound. My decision to become a Christian was made some time later, and was strongly influenced by the unexpected effect that these people's prayers had on my well being. I wasn't a Christian and I didn't believe in the power of prayer until that power was visited on me.

Had I not felt that effect, I certainly would not in any way have been offended, alarmed, stressed or otherwise pissed-off by those who prayed for me, rather the opposite. I would have taken it as an indication of their goodwill, and thanked them for it.

I don't dispute that the nurse in this case broke a rule, I do believe though that it's a shitty rule. A shitty rule invoked by the PC-Loony Brigade, as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 08:27 AM

Thanks, SC, for that dose of common sense. I deal with Health Professions students at work - Nurses, Midwives, Podiatrists, Physiotherapists, Occ. Therapists, etc. They're a good bunch of people, taught by dedicated and caring, experienced lecturers. And we have a serious ethics education which helps students, researchers and staff to understand all the complex issues which surround the care and treatment of people within the NHS. The nurse in question broke ethical rules on more than one occasion - and people who say that it's petty and doesn't matter may not always be aware of the sensitivities of dealing with patients. Which is why these guidelines and rules exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 07:16 AM

NICKHERE: "She had to follow an anal code of conduct". Have you read the NMC Code of Conduct? It's there for very good reasons. Without some basic standards of professional conduct any sort of dodgy practice could be undertaken in the name of nursing with absolutely no comeback for patients. Any caring profession needs clear professional standards, if only to prevent a descent into barbarism. It's not rocket science and has bog-all to do with the thought police or "political correctness" (a right wing construct invented by those who really make a meal out of getting offended, by the way!). Nothing "anal" about setting minimum professional standards...

BUBBLYRAT: "The very notion of nurses being just cold, unemotional, atheist scientists, devoid utterly of all human love, compassion,and understanding is ,frankly,terrifying.". Erm... I'm not being funny, but have you ever met a nurse? And since when did evidence-based medicine become such a bogeyman? It's saved millions and millions of lives, you know! I suspect your view of scientists comes from watching Dr Strangelove...
GOATFELL: Why use this issue to have a pop at muslims? Any bleeding excuse, isn't it?

Another anecdote: not "evidence" of anything, but interesting in this context. A friend and ex-colleague of mine (an atheist brought up in a muslim family, for those who worry about such things) was constantly getting evangelical christian literature put in her in-tray by two born again colleagues. She asked them to stop. Next thing she knew she was hauled in by the manager threatening to have her disciplined on the grounds of oppression of expression of religious freedom or some such nonsense. The Christians had complained to management about her mild objections to their antics and the manager was stupid enough to give them the time of day.

So its not all one-way traffic.

As an atheist I would never dream of bringing up my views with those I am paid to provide a social work service to. It simply wouldn't be appropriate and isn't why I'm there. I expect christians, muslims and other medievalists to show the same basic courtesy.

Finally, she's not been sacked. she's being investigated. Probable outcome will be a slap on the wrist and a warning to really, really not do it again. It's actually quite hard to get yourself sacked by the NHS. Too hard, some might say.

And really finally, I wonder who took this story to the press. I'd put a week's wages on it not being the Primary Care Trust...

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 06:21 AM

but that is these people that believe in Politcal Correctness, don't upset the other faith except Christians I rember when Britian was a christian country not anymore

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 06:11 PM

The nurse was suspended because she broke equality and diversity rules. Those rules were supposed to improve tolerance which seems to be far from the case here!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 06:00 PM

Sorry, Kat, I've just realized I may have asked you a rather personal question, my apologies - don't feel obliged to reply to it! I only asked because you mentioned native americans and I once read a book by a guy called John Fire Lame Deer that made a very big impression on me. Anyway, don't feel obliged to reply to that question.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:44 PM

But this is what is happening to Britian which is a Christian country well suppose to be but we the ones that are born here and are Christain we are not allowed to pray in public but anyone else of any other faith is.

that what gets me

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:33 PM

I am not religious, but believe strongly in morality.

When my Dad was in hospital, never to come out again, I sought out the Hospital Chaplain and asked him if he had time, would he be able to go and visit my father. I explained he was Christadelphian and suggested that he maybe didn't offer prayers, but rather sat with him and talked with him, if he wanted too.
He was a very nice person and understood, and he had a calmness that irrespective of religion, gave me a good feeling and I was glad I went to him. I don't know to this day if he ever visited my father, but I trusted him and I am sure he did.

Irrespective of prayer, he had a compassion that I thought was ideal for the situation. I am sure this lady was probably the same. I see no reason for suspending her.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:29 PM

Katlaughing, I'm curious. Who or what do you give thanks to?

Plus - ". I do not want anyone, other than myself, deciding what they think is best for me and praying for that"

I understand what you're saying, but there are two points to make here -

1) many people decide what they think is best for us, all the time. Politicians make laws in my country about the circumstances in which people may own guns. I may not agree with all their rules, but in general the level of deaths from guns here is low. Doctors also decide what's best for me frequently. Wasn't there a case some time back where everyone was rooting for the State because it insisted on giving blood transfusions to two Jehovah's Witness kids? Where was the 'allowing the parents and kids decide what was best for themselves and not forcing their world-view down their throats' then? Maybe the kids would have followed their parents lead and the parents had different criteria about what was right for them. I don't happen to agree in this particular case, but all I'm trying to say is people often decide what's 'best for us' and it's not always a bad thing.

2) If you object to someone trying to convert you, I quite understand that too. But it needs to be repeated over an over here that the nurse didn't seem to be trying to convert anyone. It was a prayer offered for the patient's physical recovery (as far as I know) - and physical recovery IS part of the nurse's remit. It was not a prayer offered for the patient's conversion or soul (which would be the RELIGIOUS matter).

3) Personally I don't object to anyone trying to convert me. If I have time I'll courteously listen to anyone as long as they're polite and reasonable themselves. If I don't, I'll just say, I can't right now, maybe another time? I know some of you might find this strange or threatening behaviour, but I am not fazed by it. Occasionally Mormons call to my house. I'm not and am unlikely ever to be a Mormon, but I'll listen to what they have to say and offer them a drink and bite to eat if they're hungry. If they want to say a prayer together, that's fine too. Then off they go. If they got aggressive, that would be the end of the welcome, but in my opinion they never do, even when they argue their point with conviction. It's the same with the Hare Krishna's - I won't take their book, because they always expect a 'donation' and I'm not giving them my money, but they can explain their point of view and again I'll listen politely and explain I already have my own beliefs and they do me quite well. If they want, I'll explain mine to them also.

But here once again we've (ok, I'll speak for myself) strayed into religion v. non-religion debate, not exactly my intention. But I suppose the nurse case just underlines a practical example of the tension that lies in the system, that this story is about more than mere rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:20 PM

"One thing she must not realise is how important it is that the person being prayed for also believe in the power of prayer"

That's the kind of thing I had in mind about people having different notions of "prayer". That idea would never even occur to me, in the case of saying a private prayer for someone, as against praying with them or over them or faith healing or whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: olddude
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:19 PM

Nick
you are so right, and in the US we wonder why people get so close off and don't react when they see a crime or help another in need. It is because of the price you pay like the nurse.   Don't want to hijack the thread but here is a story.

I had a very distressed student once who called me at home and I quickly figured out she was saying goodbye. I called the police. Yup she took a lot of pills. She got better, married now, 4 kids and thriving

weeks later I am getting my butt kicked from the Dean cause I am not a mental health specialist and should have called the health service first instead of the police ...

needless to say, I simply said that is stupid I am done discussing it and walked out of his office. I could get away with it, I was tenured ya

Heck nothing happened to me. Just the point. You do you best to be kind yet you get it back on you. Me I still think kind is a better way of life regardless of the politics

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:09 PM

I suppose this ruling would also mean I should never offer my seat on the bus to a pregnant woman again (unsolicited chauvanism, forcing my patriarchal and paternalistic world-view down someone's throat)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: olddude
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:07 PM

I am delighted you have a shaman and have your faith
but an act of kindness that the patient says did not offend them should not be cause for dismissal ...

heck for my 6th back operation, I will welcome the shaman along with my priest. any help I can get ya know. We have become way to politically motivated with the loss of all common sense. A simple no thank you I am not interested should have been enough. I don't know about other countries but we sure can use good health care professional here regardless of their belief system

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:06 PM

When I was hospitalized for surgury I was asked what religion I belonged to. I thought the wording was telling. I asked why they needed to know. The nurse said that in case of a worst case scenario a preist or rabbi would be provided for me.

I had them type on the wrist band Secular Humanist.

My mother said that until she saw the bracelet, she had no idea I was a practicing humanist.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:06 PM

For those who want their pound of flesh, the nurse broke the rules and should pay, no argument there. But it seems this is about more than breaking rules, it's about whether the rules are justified or if they are more of a problem than that which they prevent. Afterall, do we sit back happily when a grandma is sent to jail for not paying her TV licence? "Got what was coming to her, the old wagon!" Seems a bit harsh to me, even if she broke the law.

Why should anyone be precluded from offering a prayer? Why should anyone be so easily offended or angry at that? There was no suggestion of conversion here. If you don't believe in God or prayer, then you can afford a wry smile at the poor simpleton's credulity and say 'no, but thanks all the same'. The only reason to be afraid of prayer is if you suspect it might have some actual effect (though why anyone would struggle against being cured - even by prayer - is beyond me, unless they wanted to die for some reason unknown).

If you're so easily offended by other people's expression of their religion, why is that? I am a Christian, but when I have visited synagogues in the past I have worn the skull cap, because Jews who worship there wear it, and I want to show a sign of respect to their beliefs. I'm not worried that I'll suddenly stop being a Christian just because I am wearing a skullcap! In my experience neither Jews nor Christians nor Muslims are easily offended by expressions of each other's faith (unless we're talking about the world's flash points - but they got to be that way for many reasons of which religion is only a small part). It tends more to be people who are anti-religion as a whole who prefer not to see signs of it about (fair enough all the same, just let's not say it's to avoid conflict between the world's main religions).

Modern medicine is based heavily on medical science - surgery and drugs are anyway, and similar aspects. But anyone keeping up to date with developments in medicine will know there has been an 'East-ward' shift in medical thinking that views the curative process as more than simply a 'scientific' series of pills and surgical interventions. There is now a more holistic approach which realizes that a patient's general motivation is important, much more emphasis is placed on bedside manner, more attention is paid to making the hospital a pleasant environment with attention to ergonomics and design / colour etc., I have relatives with a lot of experience in the field of occupational therapy, where patients (for example) did painting etc. in order to speed their recovery. There is also a bigger emphasis on prevention whereas previously it was assumed that we could live as we liked and science would fix us when things went wrong, much as take a car for a 'tune up'.

Once again, I repeat, the best way seems to me to be a polite "no thank you" and move on.


Someone back a bit presented the old lady as 'the VICTIM [my emphasis] was in her 70s' - that bit made me giggle! The 'victim' of a prayer! Oh dear! I can imagine the headlines -

- The victim, in her 70s, was still in a shocked condition late last night after being admitted to hospital. She told police that the attacker had forced her way to her bedside where she offered to pray for the victim in no uncertain terms. "I was lucky to escape" she explained. She alerted one of the other nurses, who quickly raised the alarm. The perpetrator was quickly apprehended and a file is being prepared for the DPP. "I was lucky" continued the old lady, "but imagine if it had been someone else! I hate to think what might have happened!" The police say they have a suspect in custody and are making no further enquiries. "We are confident that we have apprehended the main suspect and that the matter is closed and will be speedily brought to trial" No date has been set for the trial, but a set of stocks have been dusted off and are being prepared in the village green. "We're expecting a brisk trade in old cabbages and rotten tomatoes" one greengrocer stated, while another added "I can hardly wait. I had several hundredweight of bad eggs to offload and I was wondering what to do with them"

I wonder if the day is far off?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 04:51 PM

She only meant it as kindness, NOTHING else!

Kindness might include a bullet in the head for a horse with a broken leg, but there are medically and professionally appropriate kindnesses that are frequently available and that might be better used in appropriate cases. I expect my horse to be appropriately and professionally treated without regard to STUPIDLY OFFERED "kindnesses" that have NO BASIS in the needs of the horse (or his faith and moral convictions).

Such "kindnesses" are for the benefit of the one "offering" them, and completely disregard the needs of the patient, unless and until they are requested by the patient. On request, an appropriate faith healer (counselor) should be called in, and a professional medical provider should NOT be tasked with such counsel and should not offer unsolicited shamanism.

(My favored shaman does not practice your faith - I'd bet on it.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: olddude
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 04:45 PM

personally I cherish prayers said for me in or out of the hospital. What really angers me in a hospital is

JELLO

I get violent now that should be cause for dismissal

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 04:30 PM

Lizzie.... I have enjoyed seeing your responses and admire your understanding. You at least have a grip on what actually happened here... others seem to want to make it something else.   
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 04:26 PM

"In the case under discussion, the old lady's assertion that "she wasn't offended but others might be" means that she WAS VERY MUCH OFFENDED but she's a sweet old lady who didn't want to cause trouble,"

Pah!

Absolute poppycock!