BS: Spanking

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: kendall
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 07:36 PM

I think you are pulling my leg, but if you are serious, get a copy of Seagulls & Summerpeople from Folk legacy records.

Maybe Becca 72 will be able to explain it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 05:41 PM

"I can't imagine telling a child 20 times to do or not do something. In my experience, once was enough."

Kendell - PLEASE send me some recordings of your voice so I can learn the tonal inflections you used. I need to learn how to mimic your voice in the hopes of duplicating your results.

You're a lucky man. I envy you.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: kendall
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 05:14 PM

I can't imagine telling a child 20 times to do or not do something. In my experience, once was enough.

I firmly believe that hitting a child only teaches that child to hit others. Big people get to hit little people, and that's all they earn.We learn from our parents, good or bad.

Up until age three or four, children do not understand DON'T. If you say Don't hurt the cat, all they hear is   hurt the cat. Their brain hasn't connected each side of itself yet.

I was in law enforcement while two of my girls were growing up and they knew that coming home with a Police officer would be something neither of us would enjoy. It was, of course, a veiled threat, but they knew I meant it.

Becca 72 never gave me a seconds grief. Never argued with me, and when she was not yet in her teens, she used to ask permission to go to her room. And, she never faied to come in from playing when the street light came on.
Now listen to her! Where did I go right?

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: autolycus
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 04:25 PM

And so far, it's mostly the Dad's, tho' the usual child-rearer is the Mum(?)

Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 04:16 PM

I was trying to say - "Seeing a child run toward a busy street is enough to chill the blood of any parent".

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 04:11 PM

It does sound like the original question was if a few pops on a rear end were an effective means of curbing dangerious behaviours in young children. Not beating a child - just a couple of swift swats as my dad called them in order to raise awareness. It's pretty sad to see that some folks can't resist making jokes about the matter.See a child run toward a street if enough to chill the blood of any parent. I don't think I really knew the meaning of the word fear until I became a dad. I'm not sure what the answer is but if it keeps my child out of the hospital emergency room I'd consider it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: autolycus
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 03:51 PM

We'll be back on track in no time.

Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: autolycus
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 12:40 PM

Incidentally, I don't expect too much of a result thru debate.

Some of what goes on for us all is at other levels, like upbringing, the unconscious, rationalisation, self-justification.

Which is true of most threads some of the time.

      Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Bert
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 09:42 PM

...what I sometimes took to doing was giving them a hug... good one Autolycus. I must try that.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 06:11 PM

I said nothing about 'terror'.



btw, I mentioned situations above where the child 'won't', and is likely to be spamked, normally.

When my children wouldn't, what I sometimes took to doing was giving them a hug. Then I'd ask them again to do whatever; they'd just do it. the thing was they wanted something else first, only their way of trying to get what they wanted first wasn't obvious.

That's why I say there can be any number of things going on in any person-to-person encounter, even where children were involved. Even especially where children are involved.

   Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 05:58 PM

Thanks for answering, Ivor. I don't agree. In my own experience, the spanking didn't inspire terror, seemed quick but not violent and was never done in anger. I DID know kids who'd had much different spanking experiences.

If I had to say what the differences were between violent and not violent, I'd have to say anger, unpredictability, lingering pain or fear, or outright terror. If one of my parents had screamed at me like I've seen plenty of parents do to their kids in public, I think I would have been more freaked out.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Bert
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 05:38 PM

As a child I was brainwashed for hours (and sometimes days) for minor infractions. I would have much preferred a light smack on the bum and got it over with.

Now we have a two and a half year old boy in the house there are times when he pushes the limit (as will most kids) until he does get spanked.

When he had been told twenty times or more not to throw things at the cat there came a time when he had to be shown that it would hurt the cat. A light rap across the knuckles with the latest hard plastic toy that he'd thrown, did the job. He said OW! and gave me a thoughtful look, he hadn't realised that he might hurt the cat.

I must admit that the latest threat "Do you need to take a nap with Grandpa?" is becoming less effective, as he is learning to enjoy his naps.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 05:12 PM

My choosing that quote goes a long way to showing what I think.

Spanking is engaging in violence to someone weaker than you, and shows a failure on the part of the adult. Sometimes a misunderstanding.

It depends on circs. and people as to what's going on.

If you tell a child to do something and they don't, some parents will spank. The child might learn that violence is a solution and believe they are bad. Yet the spank might be that parent wasn't just being obeyed when the parent was fraught or in a rush, and was an expression of their frustration. That's not what the child grasps.

So I think there can be any number of elements in play.

For another take, see Wilhelm Reich's little book, "Listen,Little Man".

Part of his point that we make our own cages as in kowtowing to authority. I think spamking can have a related effect. it creates/reinforces a tendency to look to authority.

Another consequence can be that those spanked, when they grow up, are supportive of punishment rather than restorative justice.

it insensitises everyone and nurtures blaming; who wants to be smacked again?

Idle thoughts of an Idle fellow, Jeri.

Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 05:01 PM

I'm sure watching my father beat my mother was far more damaging to me than any physical reprimands I got from her.

Consequently it has made me into a person who loathes bullies and violence. I am only being honest when I say I "spanked" Limpit when she was a toddler. Note the past tense. She got older and wiser and a bit more sensible and we were able to reason with each other why she shouldn't do particular things. She certainly never bit me again.

She learned when to stop and so did I. When I found it had the potential to get out of control, I sought help... how many parents would even admit to that?

Oh, just so you know - my "spankings" consisted of a single slap to the back of her hand, with my thumb and fingers covering most of that hand as I held it out, so we both got the message.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 04:52 PM

'Violence'?
Ivor, I think your definition of spanking may be different than mine. So what do you think about spanking, and how do you handle situations in which others would give a kid a light swat on the bum?

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 04:07 PM

"When people who have been beaten or spanked as children, attempt to play down the consequences by setting themselves up as examples, even claiming it was good for them, they are inevitably contributing to the continuation of cruelty in the world by their refusal to take their childhood tragedies seriously. Taking over this attitude, their children and students will in turn beat their own children, citing their parents and teachers as authorities."

Alice Miller,"For Your Own Good. The Roots of Violence in Child-rearing", 1980.


And are liable to conclude that violence is the way to solve problems, at every level in society, and interpreting violence slightly loosely (e.g. mental cruelty.)

I would imagine that the more severely one has been brought up, or the severer the family tradition is, the more violent the response might be to Ms. Miller's views.


Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: GUEST,patty o'dawes
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 03:39 PM

You'll never get a hundred people in a room to agree on this one and here is no different. All you can do is state your stand on spanking. Then if you feel the need to you can justify it. But I'd imagine that exercise is more for the benefit of the 'has smacked' parent.

Nobody will change anyone elses mind, because would you want to admit (in hindsight) you really shouldn't have hit your child twenty years ago? That's an admittance I am yet to see, although I believe deep down in someones conscience they cringe at the memory of their palm connecting with their off springs flesh.

I haven't hit my children, because I think it is lazy discipline. If it was a sure fire way to educate kids it would be commonplace in our education system. But I don't feel anything negative about those who do choose the lazy route. Your flesh and blood - your call how you treat it. And your conscience to live with.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Bert
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 01:19 PM

Isolation from the group is far more painful... So you'd choose the more painful option then kendall.

And where did the razor stap come from? That sound more like a beating than a spanking.

Just threaten to cut their ears off and terrify the poor little mites.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: kendall
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 12:56 PM

Look, let's get away from the one extreme to another, such as "a smack on the bum is better than a dead kid." That rational shows a serious lack of imagination.
There are certain things that are vital to all primates, and children are primates. One of them is being part of the group. Isolation from the group is far more painful than being smacked on the bum once or twice.

Naturally, I like to think my kids were exceptional, and there may be some who just don't fit the mould, but my kids never got smacked around. For some reason they toed the mark because they didn't want to disapoint me. It was important to them to please me and I returned the honor by making sure they knew they were loved and respected.I've always been proud of them and they know it.
Show me a razor strap that is more effective than that.
I just don't believe that spanking is the best way to "square them away".I see it as a short cut that requires less effort than a better solution.

Ok, spankers, fire away! I'm loaded for bear.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 02:05 AM

Bobert -- this is probably thread creep but I want to say it anyway, Way back we were living in England -- I don't remember the year but it was when two pre teen boys took a child (Jamie Bulger)   _ for the hell of it and for the unknowing of it..and then basically didn't know how to give him back. So they hit him with 2 x 4s, killed him and left hid body on a railroad track. I remember to this day sitting all my three kids down - the youngest was about 2 to three - and telliing them I wanted them to remember this conversation the rest of their lives. Then I told them this is what happens when you have a leader and a follower -- although the leader does all the actual damage, the follower is just as much destroyed , his family and friends and those who love him are just as much destroyed as the activities of the leader destroyed his family and friends. Today these13 years back from living in the UK - if I talk to my children about this incident they remember our conversation that day. I do not doubt that any of the would walk away from such a situation.......

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Genie
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 08:49 PM

[[Quote: Riginslinger - PM
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 02:57 PM

I think political candidates ought to be spanked on a regular basis.]]

Nah, that'd probably just encourage 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Sorcha
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 08:03 PM

And a small swat on the behind is better than a dead kid.

Now, can we let this rest?

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 07:39 PM

Once a parent spanks then the parent looses all leverage...

When my son Will (Ben to you, don't ask...)who at age 3 ot so started hitting his mother, who BTW had a black belt and was teaching karate, I just went into his rrom and got real close in his face and told him that if he ever hit his mother again that I was gonna put a whup on him that would last him a life time to get over...

Now, for the most part, I am a very peacefull person so me doing that impressed upon him that hitting his mom was not something he should be doing and he stopped...

Might of fact, I believe that one threat was so "sold", that Will never ever did much wrong again and I'm sure that to this very day he remembers that night... I sure do...

It's not the punishment but the *unknown* about he punishement that is the deterrant...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Bert
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 07:11 PM

Spoken by somebody who doesn't have the courage to put their name to their posting.

A quick smack is much better than hours (or even days) of brainwashing or threats to cut off an ear.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Bert
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 12:43 PM

a href="http://www.newgatesknocker.com/index.html"> There's one here who needs a good spanking.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 12:01 PM

Midchuck is a good sport

Hey imagine spanking as a televised sport with all the hoopla of boxing.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Midchuck
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 11:38 AM

Spanking is too much fun to waste on children.

P.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 11:18 AM

Most 3 year-olds aren't affected by reason. Speaking only for myself, I got spanked when I knew better. As an older child, I could and would have ignored a parent talking at me. Really, if that's the worst punishment I'll get...

Kendall, your tactic wouldn't have worked on me. If my dad had said that, I would have thought he was kidding around and what I'd done wasn't serious. On the other hand, if I'd believed him, I would have been traumatized far more than from the spanking.

The thing with the bootie-slap was that it happened fast, I got my negative reinforcement, then it was over and done with - no lingering repercussions at all. I was confident I knew how to avoid making the same mistake and my parents treated me as if they knew that.

It might be helpful if folks who don't believe in spanking give their chosen form of negative reinforcement. You tell your kid not to throw stones at his little sister because he could seriously hurt her. You reason. He does it again. What do you do when reasoning doesn't work?

Subject: RE: BS: Spam king
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 09:24 AM

Spanking is the alternative when a chld can not reason or does not have the experience to avoid serious harm.
Once a child has the reasoning power that things like a hot stove will burn them, spanking has no valid merit.

One can keep the threat of spanking alive after it has no merit for only a short time.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: kendall
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 09:18 AM

I use the same method on adults, even those who sink to name calling, outsmart them.
Having spent most of 20 years at sea, I have a rather large collection of colorful epithets and names but I outgrew the need for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 09:13 AM

For small infractions (e.g., "fighting") my brother and his wife made the kids involved sit silently at a table and look at each other. Pretty soon the giggles would start, and then the laughter, and when you laugh you can't stay mad.

They weren't adverse to a quick swat on a clothed bottom, though. They never said "This is going to hurt me more than you," since they knew better.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: kendall
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 09:03 AM

Cluin, I never did answer your question, the answer is, No, I was never beaten or spanked as a child by either parent.

A few days ago my Grandson was here clearing my driveway. When he was a little boy, he was defiant and a constant pain in the ass. One evening when I was visiting him and his Mother, he refused to go up to bed. He sat down on the living room floor and spouted defiance. My daughter couldn't do a thing with him. She did not believe in spanking and was at the end of her rope. I suggested that she let me try.
I went to him and told him to get up and go to bed. He refused, so I took him by his ear and gently tugged on it whie repeating the order. At last I told him that I could easily remove his ear and give it to the cat. He stood up and went to bed.
The other day, he mentioned that incident and we both had a good laugh.
I always believed it was easier and more rewarding to outsmart them than to hurt them.
I would not try that trick today, he stands 6 feet plus ad weighs 260 pounds.
Oh, and by the way, he thinks I hung the moon.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 08:32 AM

The subject seems to bring out some rather unpleasant extremes in people. I remember the other thread, and I may have contributed.

I got spanked - fully clothed - when I was little. I understood WHY I got spanked because I was always aware of what boundary I'd crossed. I never was afraid for my safety, but usually ashamed and a bit mad I'd been caught. Yes, sometimes the slaps stung, but that faded in seconds and there was no lasting effect, save me remembering and avoiding in the future whatever behavior prompted the spanking.

It was more of a symbolic gesture than anything else. When I got to a certain age (maybe around 8 or 9) I realized the spanking had never really hurt. My bragging, "Go ahead, I don't care!" made my parents change tactics to something far less easy to get over, such as, "No, you can't go." Of course, I don't remember any of those punishments as they varied to suit the offense. Frequently, my own feeling of guilt was enough, and the echoes of that terrible, bone-chilling phrase, "I'm disappointed in you..."

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 06:06 AM

I seem to dimly remember a story about Erasmus (or someone like that). When E. was a child he found himself in a public space (an inn, perhaps?) with a guardian (Father? Grandfather? Uncle?). They both overheard a man say someting very wise or profound. The guardian promptly clipped E. round the ear. Presumably the theory was that the minor trauma would permanently imprint the words of wisdom on the young E.'s mind.

Perhaps someone should have clipped me round the ear when I read this - so that I could remember the details a bit better!

Nevertheless, I don't generally believe in hitting children (or anyone else for that matter). But the parents who give their children a tap when they do something like running into the road may have a point ... the minor trauma could well prevent a subsequent major trauma.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 04:27 AM

"
Hitting someone you claim to love, proves that you don't have the first clue what love means

Using the fact that you might have been abused as an excuse to abuse someone you claim to love is pretty pathetic"

Ghoster, I would see a doctor if I were you, or possibly Ghost Busters, you smugness may be terminal.

G.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: sapper82
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 03:34 AM

Well done Liz!
I've done the same with all four of mine!

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 03:29 AM

Ah Ghoster - you need to first define "love".

The English language is rich in words - there are many words to describe the act of intercourse but only one for 'love'... I love my daughter, but I also love chocolate.

I wouldn't dream of spanking my chocolate but have, when need has arisen, 'spanked' my daughter when she decided that biting was a good way to get her own back after I forbade her to do something. As this something was me telling her not to run out into the road, I thought a slap for the disobeying and another for the biting when I grabbed her to stop her going under a bus would be better than me having to peel her off the radiator of a double decker bus.

Everyone I've ever heard say 'you should never hit a child' has been childless. You do not know how you will react until the situation arises. If a short smack that smarts for a few minutes will prevent a greater pain, then surely that's better.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 03:24 AM

Rather insulting, Mr Ghost. Depart from hence and haunt a website where they value insulting apparitions.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Jim Lad
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 12:16 AM

I've been very, very naughty!

Guest: We really have gone through this & I'm guessing that no-one is keen on seeing the subject revived. I was new at the time and now that I know some of the Mudcatters a little better, I would be more inclined to bite my tongue for the sake of civility.
Why not pick a more harmless topic like "American Foreign Policy" or something?

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 10:26 PM

More in surprise (to the spankee) than in anger. Be careful, though -- the diapers that pad little bottoms can also contain a nasty surprise for the spanker.

But if you hit naked flesh hard enough to leave a hand mark, as I've seen done....

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 09:09 PM

I DID ask, and they both said they needed the spankings they got.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 08:27 PM

maybe the person to ask is the spankee, rather than the spanker. Were you abused?

I was never spanked although one son of a bitch used to hit me with a stick at school for having an untidy desk.

I don't think it enriched my appreciation of the universe much. Who knows - perhaps I would have been a more worthwhile member of society if I had lived under the lash.

As it was, I never achieved much.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 08:24 PM

Concerned loving parent, as others have pointed out, this subject has been discussed in some considerable detail previously and members have put their mudcat identities to some very personal experiences and viewpoints.

To reopen such often emotive discussion as a 'guest' could be considered to be the action of a 'troll'. Now that may be a serious diservice to a genuine desire to know peoples feelings on this issue but I think you will find every answer you need on this issue covered already if, as you say, it was an honest question.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: GUEST,troll
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 08:17 PM

I'd sooner spank his mother..

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 08:13 PM

I spanked, and my grandson gets spanked. Less and less as he gets older.
Our kids are fine and they were not abused.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: GUEST,Concerned loving parent
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 08:09 PM

I see the serious answers are few and far between.Perhaps it was a mistake to start this thread after all.Someone can cancel the thread if they like.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 05:40 PM

I always prefered an electric cattle prod and all my Children turned out OK. Harold's a doctor, Joseph leads a major political party and Lucrecia's family all dote on her...

Serioulsy though. Whatever you do, someone will say it is wrong. Most children end up OK regardless of the 'advice'. Use you own judgement - Don't lay your potential mistakes on anyone elses door!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 05:32 PM

Ask Oprah

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: bobad
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 05:30 PM

"Hit me" says the masochist.

"No" says the sadist.

Subject: RE: BS: Spanking
From: Jim Lad
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 05:25 PM

I've been a bad boy!