BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:25 PM

Lox: well said.

Lizzie: once again you are superimposing your own values on the rest of us. Lizzie's Rules for Life (or Lizziana, as Folkiedave would call it). Just because a woman doesn't abide by your moral code and judgements, does not mean she deserves to be raped.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Amos
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:08 PM

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A hormone thought to encourage bonding between mothers and their babies may foster social behavior in some adults with autism, French researchers said on Monday.


They found patients who inhaled the hormone oxytocin paid more attention to expressions when looking at pictures of faces and were more likely to understand social cues in a game simulation, the researchers said in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Angela Sirigu of the Center of Cognitive Neuroscience in Lyon, who led the study, said the hormone has a therapeutic potential in adults as well as in children with autism.

"For instance, if oxytocin is administered early when the diagnosis is made, we can perhaps change very early the impaired social development of autistic patients," Sirigu said in an email.

Sirigu said the study focused on oxytocin because it was known to help breast-feeding mothers bond with their infants and because earlier research has shown that some children with autism have low levels of the hormone.

---

So maybe instead of pepper spray, gals should carry oxytocin to use against the extremely insensitive....



A

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:02 PM

I think mg has a good point about there being two topics here, although I am not sure of some of the later sentiments. Anyhow - There is the issue of rape. For which there is no excuse. Then there is the issue of taste, for which there is no accounting. Difficult as it may be please try to seperate the two. A young woman's tastes in clothing, or any woman's for that matter, should not even enter into the equation of violence against her. Split the two out and tell us how, in the thread title, some rape victims should take blame.

Lizzie. You did not answer my earlier question although I do note that you have been on the thread since I posted it. MtheGM - as you have not been on the thread I assume you are doing other things. As I am. Sad as it is I am going to watch the Brits to see if I can spot any skimpy clothes...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:52 PM

And "If anyone misinterprets your behavior, dress, intentions and acts on their misinterpretation, are you then partially to blame?"

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lox
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:50 PM

First.

Are women who wear short skirts while playing tennis taking a risk?

Are women who wear a bikini by the pool or on the beach taking a risk?

When a woman wears a short skirt to a nightclub, why is this "inviting trouble" more than either of the above?

If a Pakistani man walks through the streets of Glasgow on a friday night is he taking a risk?

If a youth from South East london takes a detour through an East London estate is he taking a risk?


If a black woman refuses to sit at the back of the bus is she taking a risk?


You Fucking bet they all are!


But They have a RIGHT to do it and they bear NO responsibility for the violence of others upon them.


And all those who refuse to compromise in the face of cultural pressure and violence to change them should be applauded.


As long as we pious judges snootily say "she was asking for it", rapists will quote us and use that as their excuse.


So all you straight laced prudes with your projected fantasies and mealy mouthed bitterness can go take a hike.


Responsibility for rape lies 100% with the rapist.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:49 PM

"No, I don't do 'sex', I do 'love'. There is not the first, without the second, for me. If a man wanted me for the first alone, then I would think very badly of him. If you want me, then you have to love me. That is the respect I have for myself, and that is the respect I expect from others. "

But that is YOU Lizzie and your choice and who you are. Not all are the same.

I know love and I know sex are two very different animals BUT the point I was making is that when it finally gets down to the sex, a woman is free to change her mind and no amount of love will make me think halitosis is acceptable in a sexual situation.... or fagbreath, beerbreath or sweaty socks and such like.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Royston
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:47 PM

MtheGM, I thought my point was simple and made simply. I tire of having to make endless allowances for people like you and Lizzie.

There can be no plea of proovocation against a charge of rape.

No means no.

Stop means stop.

No exceptions, no negotiation.

Clear enough?

Taking the "slap my bum" t-shirt example. The worst-case invitation there is that a bum should be slapped. Nothing else. It's that simple.

A woman who dresses "provocatively" for a night out, I would presume, invites admiration and some flattering comments. Maybe some offers of something more for her to consider and either accept/reject. Simple as that.

Lizzie, you horror, you tell us that you believe

"...that a woman should take some of the responsibility for what can happen if she leads a man on and on and on..."

Those are your words.

Tell me in what way that differs substantially from my interpretation of your belief "that in certain circumstances a woman deserves to be raped" - my words. I don't see the difference. Nobody else sees the difference - except maybe MtheGM.

So why don't you clarify...

Do you in fact believe that there is never, ever a reason or justification for the rape of a woman, that a woman can never be held responsible in part or in whole for her rape. That is my position, is it yours? Yes, or no?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:42 PM

"Well color me Catholic but I do think women have a responsibility for what men think of them. (this does not translate to approving of rape etc. so don't jump to nutty conclusions). mg"

Absolutely agree.


"Have you never ever fancied someone and then found beer breath, a bad comment, halitosis, sweaty socks... and changed your mind on that instant? You can be turned on and horny, but it can go in an instant too. This has to be about actual consent. Once NO is issued... no matter how tough it is on the guy, it should be taken as full withdrawal of consent and his most sensible course of action is to STOP immediately."

Perhaps the woman should learn to stop immediately, before she gets started on winding the man up.

No, I don't do 'sex', I do 'love'. There is not the first, without the second, for me. If a man wanted me for the first alone, then I would think very badly of him. If you want me, then you have to love me. That is the respect I have for myself, and that is the respect I expect from others.

I have felt that way all my life.

I have never seen sex as just a physical act. I see Love as a Spiritual one, as well as a Physical one, so the way that people now hop in and out of bed, or 'shag' up against a wall, with a complete stranger is totally and utterly alien to me.

We have lost the art of Love and replaced it with the cold confusion of sex which seems to me to leave those who participate in it feeling lost, confused and lonely, in the long run.

It is way past time that we brought Love back to our young women, as well as self respect, tenderness and the unwritten rules that once used to surround relationships.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:31 PM

Some of them have an IQ of 50 and are on crystal meth besides. At some point they are not able to rationalize or control their behavior. I am all for putting them in a happy secure village somewhere but until that day comes we all have to take a share of responsibility. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:23 PM

Emma B comes up with the goods once again :-)

All men have the capability to rape. Not all men are rapists. We all have the capability to murder. We don't all murder.

Rapists are a different kettle of fish

The responsibilities of rape are firmly upon their shoulders NOT the victim

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:17 PM

You are dealing with a subgroup of men in any population who probably should be in a protected environment, under constant supervision, because they have no more control than a pit bull, probably for about the same biological reasons. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: vectis
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:16 PM

MtheGM

Vectis, the same applies to you with regard to my direct question as to what you would regard as an appropriate response to a woman who had irresponsibly led a man on only to let him down at the last moment. I agreed with you that violence was not justified, but made one or two suggestions as to what might be. What do YOU think, I ask again, might be acceptable or permissible responses? May I have an answer to this perfectly explicit question, please?

The best thing would be to explain that if she did the same thing to a different mant that she could end up provoking him to violence or even rape. If both were a bit drunk then call her a silly prickteaser or whatever comes to mind and then WALK AWAY.
Anything else would put him in the wrong so he would need to be as calm as possible and very self controlled. Yes! He may well be angry, embarrased and upset but he has to accept the situation and make the best of a bad job.

Hope this answers your question.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:16 PM

During the summer I was a member of a jury that considered provocation as a partial defence in a murder trial.

In these circumstances while provocation doesn't mitigate the killing of another individual, the defence does allow the verdict to be 'downgraded' from murder to manslaughter.

Provocation assumes that the emotional state of the accused is a relevant consideration when it comes to assessing the culpability of the accused.

Given that the law assumes that an accused is a rational being (unless, insanity is pleaded) the concept that provocation can justify either rape or murder does seem outdated although it may have served a purpose when capital punishment was still on the statute book


In a paper examining gender bias in rape and sexual assault charges in Japan, Harriet Gray (School of East Asian Studies, University of Sheffield ) writes

"Sexual assault is a notoriously difficult crime to prove in any legal system. It is often perpetrated without any witnesses other than the victim and aggressor, and (especially in the case of rape committed by someone known to the victim) it is necessary to prove something which does not need to be proved in any other crime: lack of consent.

Objective evidence, except in the case of serious physical injury, is often absent, so it is necessary to rely on the testimonies of accuser and defendant.
However, further problems arise in legal systems worldwide from the fact that they are often fraught with systematic gender bias………
……..differentially socialised groups, including men and women, interpret events in different ways.

For example, men are more likely than women to have sexualised perceptions of a given situation, such as believing that a woman is behaving seductively when she thinks she is just being friendly."


It has been argued that because of historical male privilege, the male perspective has come to be considered objective in some cultures; that is, the male point of view is considered to be an objective universal understanding,.

RAPE MYTHS

Rape myths are gender-biased stories, which falsely assert that being a victim is more traumatic for chaste than promiscuous women, and that rape is a sexual act caused when a woman provokes a man into losing control of his powerful innate sexuality.

Such so-called provocation can consist of walking alone at night, wearing revealing clothing, or being promiscuous

Such myths are biased because they are based in a masculine angle on rape and sex rather than the experiences of victims.

Rape myths dictate who qualifies as a true victim. Victims who do not fit into the stereotype of a 'Little Red Riding Hood fairy tale victim: a young, innocent female out doing good deeds who is attacked by an unknown stranger' may be seen as undeserving or may not earn the title 'victim' at all,

The focus on the character and actions of the victim shifts attention from the question of why some people offend to the question of why some people are attacked.
This has the effect of placing blame on the victim, because if they had not been the person that they were, then they would not have become victims


THE MYTH OF MALE WEAKNESS

"Bad male sexual behavior is a consequence of the irresistible temptation that women provide. The myth tells us that we men can't really control our eyes, our speech, our thoughts, or our actions.
Male sexual purity, this theory says, is only possible when women remain covered and chaste

This is offensive to both men and women in that it burdens women with responsibility for male behavior and infantilizes men as creatures unable to exercise self-control.

The myth of uncontrollable male sex drive manages to be both misogynistic and misandrist at the same time -- a pretty neat trick if you think about it!"

From "Men's Rights' by 'a progressive Anabaptist/Episcopalian'

spot on! - some of the comments here are as offensive and demeaning to men as they are to most women.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:15 PM

Interesting point, Genie. If a woman is lying naked in the sun on a clothing optional beach, is she to blame for provoking a rape?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:14 PM

"So put me down as one who thinks women need to go back to what they have generally always done, and that is to dress and act responsibly and see to it that anyone that they can influence is influenced in that direction, rather than telling them they can wear anything and do anything and nothing should happen. Of course they should be able to..I should be able to walk into a yard of pit bulls and not get bitten..I do not deserve to get bitten...but I need to use some sense. mg "

Not a fair cpmparison unless you are saying all men act like pitbulls and women always walk into the pit. All men do not act like pitbulls. Also, pitbulls bite. It is their instinct. Men have instincts - 0f course they do - as do women. Most are able to control theirs.

Women should have free will to wear what they want with no implied consent to 'being up for it'.

Personally I believe it is wrong for a woman to lead a man on but that gives him no right to sex. Have you never ever fancied someone and then found beer breath, a bad comment, halitosis, sweaty socks... and changed your mind on that instant? You can be turned on and horny, but it can go in an instant too. This has to be about actual consent. Once NO is issued... no matter how tough it is on the guy, it should be taken as full withdrawal of consent and his most sensible course of action is to STOP immediately.

WE can harp on about the scenario. Thousands of scenarios are ran through every year. The woman or man has still been raped where no permission is given or consent. It's THAT simple.

Stop making excuses for rapists!

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:13 PM

Well color me Catholic but I do think women have a responsibility for what men think of them. (this does not translate to approving of rape etc. so don't jump to nutty conclusions). mg

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Genie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:11 PM

Mary (and Lizzie), I don't disagree that young girls and even grown women sometimes dress and behave in reckless and teasing ways and that the girls, especially, need educating in that regard. (But teens and pre-teens have never been known for their wisdom and judgment.)

Let's not forget, though, that there are cultures where people wear little or no clothes at all, yet the men aren't allowed to force sex on an unwilling woman or girl.    And being sexually attractive to men isn't necessarily a matter of how tight or skimpy a girl or woman's clothes are.

We don't say women are "asking for it" because they wear bikinis at the beach.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:06 PM

spot on MRRZY!!!!
x x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:04 PM

Remember old Star Trek, and the way the women dressed? They (the women) claimed it was liberating to be able to dress as "provocatively" as they wanted and it was OK, because in that future, men had manners.

That is pretty much how I feel about it. People with manners don't force their attentions on others.

Nowadays you'll hear men talk about how "exploitative" that clothing was...

Plus, there are several major religions that treat the human body as a temptation from the devil or something, and require women to take responsibility for what men think about them. Now, that is really a crock. Nudity is not evil, nor is the female body. Men's thoughts are just that, thoughts, let them have all they want, as long as they have manners (which means understanding that thought isn't action, or permission for action).

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:49 PM

There are two separate questions here..

1. Should anyone ever be raped under any circumstances? Does anyone deserve it regardless of behavior? 100% of people here and elsewhere would say no I am pretty sure.

2. Should women dress themselves in a decent manner and advise, scold, and commad young women in their sphere of duty to do likewise? I say yes. I almost followed two very young child teens off the bus yesterday to tell them to put some clothes on..one had shorts on skimpier than my underwear (TMI I know..) and she could not have been over 13. What women do in a public place, like public transportation etc. where there is close contact is very important to the safety and stability of society and we have responsibilities to not act dumb about sex as if we didn't know about it and what provocation is. A 13 or 15 year old probably does not realize what she is doing entirely, and they have to be protected and people have to be protected from their behavior.

Not every filthy drunken man on a public bus is in full command of his brain and body. There are brain-damaged people out there. There are people with all sorts of mental illness and handicaps who are being more and more mainstreamed. Well, guess what..they are on the bus...they are in the taverns etc. And we don't know what the biological breaking point is of other men..those of very low IQ and social status perhaps who are not going to get anything voluntary from anybody.

So put me down as one who thinks women need to go back to what they have generally always done, and that is to dress and act responsibly and see to it that anyone that they can influence is influenced in that direction, rather than telling them they can wear anything and do anything and nothing should happen. Of course they should be able to..I should be able to walk into a yard of pit bulls and not get bitten..I do not deserve to get bitten...but I need to use some sense. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:47 PM

At the bottom of all the judgmentalism about women who dress or behave "badly" is the idea of women as property, saving their pearl beyond price for Mr Right and the thought that "Nice Girls don't" (whatever) the "Don't" might be smoke in the street, swear, drink, flirt, dress "provocatively" or not at all, "tease" etc etc.

Wake up and smell the pheromones! Nice girls do if they want to, and nasty ones likewise. And they are entitled not to if they don't want to.

Sending mixed messages, using sex to obtain advantage, or to cause discomfiture, or as part of manipulative behaviour may well be unpleasant and unjustifiable, but they do not amount to a rape victim "getting what she deserved".

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:47 PM

"And with due respect, I'm 55 years old, I've been around a little longer than you, my sweetheart."

cor, patronizing much lizzie?
thanks for your pretend concern lizzie, but i can do without it, it was terrible yes, but i am over it and have come to terms. if and when i do think about it, i can see it as part of a bigger picture, something that had to happen to get me where i am now, which is very happy.

yes it is sad when people need that sort of attention to feel good about themselves, but i think you missed the point.
unfortunatly i think you have now reached stubborness. although you still contradict yourself. first you say there should be no line, when in everyday situations and in everything we do there is such a line of personal comfort. then talk about crossing that line.


i notice you didn't answer the question of the show us your tits comment? why, do you need me to expand on that senario?
ok, the girl says ok, goes to lift her shirt but doesn't, then is he allowed to lift it himself, because she has implied that she will but changed her mind?

another question, to everyone. imagine a couple having sex, the woman on top, for some reason the man wants her to stop,he has cramp for example. she doesn't, he has then been forced to carry on. is the woman at fault because she is far too turned on to stop or is he at fault for wanting her to stop, no matter what the reason?

just curious.
i would say as soon as he said stop and she hasn't, it is rape. no matter how far along proceedings it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:43 PM

Thanks, Ruth. I needed help clarifying my point.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:42 PM

That sounds very reasonable, Genie. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:41 PM

Sorry M - I was not avoiding your question I just did not notice it amongst the rest of the flak flying! I would not regard ANY ammount of provocation to be mitigation in a rape case. If, and this is a big if, there are any men who, on seeing the exposed flesh of a young woman, cannot control themselves then maybe, just maybe, they should not be charged with rape but should be dealt with under the provisions of some mental health legislation. In either case it is not the victims fault.

Hope that answers your question and enables you to answer mine.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Genie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:35 PM

David el Gnomo - [["I would like to hear views on the following scenario. Young couple meet in the disco. They are attracted. Both have too much to drink and end up having sexual intercourse. Neither can remember much about it and neither knows with any certaintly if either of them said yes. OK - I know it is a real corner case and may or may not ever happen. But in that case did a rape occur and if so, who raped who? "]]

I can't see anyone being convicted of rape in this scenario.
However, if I get drunk and go home with a guy and maybe we even have sex eagerly and repeatedly (not rape) but next morning I don't want to have sex with him anymore (because I remember I'm not on the pill, because we're out of condoms, because I'm sore, or just because I no longer have my beer goggles on), my "consent" is not "implied" because of what happened the night before.
If I've been going with a guy for years, even living with him, and I decide I want to break up with him, my consent to continuing sex with him is not implied after I tell him that.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:31 PM

Royston, DeG, Vectis: I put specific questions to each of you; you have all replied dismissively to me WITHOUT ADDRESSING THESE QUESTIONS.

DeG, you used the word 'provocative', & Royston you declared you agreed with DeG. So I asked you how far you would regard *provocation* as a mitigating factor, as in law, as you know, it CAN be regarded in certain cases. You did not answer this question. Please do so if you wish me to take your answers as in any way complete or to be respected.

Vectis, the same applies to you with regard to my direct question as to what you would regard as an appropriate response to a woman who had irresponsibly led a man on only to let him down at the last moment. I agreed with you that violence was not justified, but made one or two suggestions as to what might be. What do YOU think, I ask again, might be acceptable or permissible responses? May I have an answer to this perfectly explicit question, please?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:28 PM

""But by your own admission, if a man was driven to rape by your innocent provocative display you would be partially to blame. No?"

I don't behave provocatively, full stop, Mary. I do not dress provocatively, nor move provocatively"


The point is, one person's innocent dancing might be another's provocation. The point is, should you be held responsible for someone else misinterpreting your behaviour? Because, when a girl dresses in skimpy clothes just like all her mates do, maybe she's not setting out to be sexually provocative, either. You seem to be saying that, if a man decides she issexually available, it's her own fault and she deserves what she gets.

Lots of people do things that some people could interpret as taking really stupid, foolish risks. I knew a woman who met several men on the internet. Because one of the men lived very far away, she invited him to stay - incredibly, she actually had her children in the house when he came. Her friends told her what a stupid thing this was to do, but she insisted that it was okay because they "absolutely knew each other" as a result of their long correspondence. The man turned out to be some sort of predatory nutter, and a very bad situation involving her daughter was only narrowly avoided. Now, many people would think she had behaved incredibly stupidly. But surely no one would say she had provoked, or worse deserved, the outcome.

Would they?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:28 PM

She IS doing harm by dressing or behaving 'provocatively' if she doesn't intend to put out: she is committing a gross breach of manners

Sorry - Bad manners = No harm done. Rape = Lots of harm done. No over-simplifycation. Just plain fact. But just in case let us take a more complex example. Sorry if this has happened to anyone and I sincerley hope I not opening old wounds.

Chantelle goes to the disco - Dressed in the previously described manner. She has a few drinks, wiggles her bottom and flashes her boobs at Wayne, who fancies her like mad. He buys her a couple more drinks and then walks her home. She fancies him as well and gives his tonsils a good bashing with her tongue at the street corner before she says goodnight. It is not enough for him and he says he wants sex. She says no but he will not take no for an answer, drags her down an alley and rapes her.

Really easy question here for anyone - but specificaly for Lizzie and MtheGM. No trick questions. No hidden agenda. Who is responsible for the rape?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:25 PM

The point is Lizzie that some saw your behavior as provocative. If anyone misinterprets your behavior, dress, intentions and acts on their misinterpretation, are you then partially to blame?

A young girl in a tasteless outfit or a middle-aged woman in glitter. Why is either responsible for the resulting assault?

And Sweetheart, I am long past 55. That does not mean a damn thing when it comes to common sense and wisdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Genie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:25 PM

MtGM,
You say the flaunting the cash and then changing your mind scenario wouldn't happen?
Even if it wouldn't, it still illustrates the position of the law on theft. But I don't think it's so far-fetched.
Suppose a rich person gets very drunk, takes someone home and in that inebriated state promises them loads of money, jewels, etc., all of which are there in the house. They both fall asleep and next morning the rich person, now sober, takes back the offer.   
Or suppose the rich person offers a friend or acquaintance some valuables, but then they have a quarrel and the offer is rescinded.    People DO change their minds about offers they make, sometimes at the drop of a hat.   What matters to the law is whether there was or was not consent at the time of the act in question.

[["If you lead someone on to believe that you want something, are 'gagging' for it, then change your mind at the last moment, chances are, you're going to get a reaction you may not like."]]
Perhaps not, but you still have the legal right to change your mind. If I say you can borrow my car Tuesday, but then I remember that I need to have it that day, or there's some other reason I want to change my mind, I'm legally allowed to -- and if you went ahead and took the car after I'd said "no," you could be charged with theft.
If my change of heart was capricious and inconvenienced you, I might get a reputation for being a selfish jerk, but that's not a legal issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:13 PM

"And with due respect, I'm 55 years old, I've been around a little longer than you, my sweetheart."

Your age has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.
Jade knows rather more about this subject than you do Lzzie, or haven't you been reading her posts?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:13 PM

"You obviously think it's just fine for her to behave however she wants, and to hell with everyone else. I'm saying it's not."

That is exactly what I am saying. The minute a woman says "No" it is "No". <<<<<<


And I am saying that a woman should think far more deeply, stop being so bloody selfish, get a grip on reality and behave in a far more moderate and acceptable fashion which does not give out the wrong messages.





"But by your own admission, if a man was driven to rape by your innocent provocative display you would be partially to blame. No?"

I don't behave provocatively, full stop, Mary. I do not dress provocatively, nor move provocatively, nor am I to be found all over men, batting my eyelashes at them. Got that? Good. Do not be led astray by the lies that certain posters put down about me.

I never had, nor ever would behave provocatively in front of a man,unless that man was a man I loved and who loved me, in which case I may move my Pooh Bear little body in the most provocative way imaginable whilst I loved him to bits.

I was known, in the Embassies of Harley Street for being one of the secretaries who NEVER behaved provocatively towards any interpreter, ever. And I had respect for that from them all.

So please treat me with respect for that.

Thank you.



"I will say one thing that may bring some wrath on my head. Regarding a woman going to bed with a man, in a manner that would by all reasonable interpretation imply consent: she retains the right to change her mind, and say no; a man who doesn't respect that should not be held blameless. But if she has led him up to the point of intense arousal, and he doesn't stop, I can't see that he should be judged and penalized to the same degree as a man who has set out with the intention of rape."

I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:08 PM

I agree Vectis. Add to it a judicial system (at least here in the US) that prefers to negotiate with violent offenders, plead them down to a lesser charge in order to claim an easy victory, and then act shocked when the offender repeats.

On a different topic, when I was brought pictures of potential suspects for a line up, there was a picture of the local priest. I assumed they put him in to throw me off - if I recognized the face and fingered him, my memories were off and unreliable. I was wrong. This priest had recently been transferred from another parish after he had been found molesting children. A parishioner contacted the local police to warn them he would rape again. Nice...1971.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Been there
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:05 PM

I have not read this But having been there and got the tee shirt as such believe me if you know the person, and lets be fair here it can be man or woman then they normally get away with it 99% of the time.

I knew mine, knew 'him' very well so I thought, but not well enough. I trusted him, we were partners, but still I was brutally raped and abused, but was it my fault, should I have taken some blame. F...... well NO. The law is an ass. Most rapes are committed by a person known to the victim. Remember we are VICTIM.

I don't trust anyone now and most likely never will for a very long time, if ever. My life was ruined, I still have nightmares, still cry in private. I hate myself for letting myself be taken in, I feel enough guilt without being told I should take some blame....

Mine is on police record, he should be behind bars but still is free to commit again and he has since married...... god help his wife.

BT

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:05 PM

Heya Jade, spot on posts.
You're talking lots of sense here, as ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:05 PM

"Rape must NEVER be confused with sex.

Rape is nothing to do with sex it is a violent assault."

Once again, at the risk of being beat over my head with a slogan, this is a generality that is not totally accurate.

Because there are many, many 'violent assults' that do NOT include sex, we must account for those which do.

It IS inexcusable for any man, at any time, to use violence to obtain sex, just as it is inexcusable for anyone to use violence except in response TO violence.
I am sure that men who are serial rapists, or who may never have actually committed rape, but constantly intimidate and sexually harass women, are acting out feeling that go way beyond simple 'sex', but a chanted slogan that "rape is always about power" is way too simplistic. Sex...and the frustrations of how to sublimate it...ARE involved in rape in many cases.
This does not change the fact that violence is not to be tolerated, whether or not it is manifested in sex.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:04 PM

Young women need to respect themselves FIRST, jade. If the only way that they can feel 'validated' is to dress like tarts or porn queens, then my oh my, what a sad world we have created for our women.

And with due respect, I'm 55 years old, I've been around a little longer than you, my sweetheart.

I have people I know who've been raped, molested, as children, (my own mother amongst them) and I know full well they were not in any way to blame. I also know the damage it can cause. It took my mother over 50 years to even talk about it.

Blatant rape is wholly wrong, there is no excuse for it at all, and the men who carry that out should be punished in the most vicious terms, perhaps giving them to the men of the village or the mothers of the victims is a pretty good idea...I am not a lily livered do gooder when it comes to wrong doing, believe you me.

However, I still abide by what I say, and that is that if a girl leads a man on and then finds herself in a situation she doesn't like, she has to bear some of the blame as to why it happened because she should not have done that in the first place. The man is wrong to step over that line. The woman is wrong to put that line down in the first place.

Im sorry for what happened to you, jade....I really am, and I wish it never had. I know only too well that it leaves deep scars, but the best thing you can do is get those scars to heal, not let them become gaping wounds, because then those who caused them have won. I think you're doing a pretty good job..and I think that already you are in charge of your feelings.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: vectis
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:48 PM

My point is exactly as you have deduced.

Rape must NEVER be confused with sex.

Rape is nothing to do with sex it is a violent assault.

If people think that girls who dress provocatively are in some way to blame for being raped it is the same as saying that girls who dress provocatively are asking to have their faces slashed with a knife.

Assault is wrong whatever the weapon used.

Confusing rape with sex is enabling rapists to walk free from court because juries don't seem to be able to see rape as a violent assault whereas if the victim had been stabbed or beaten up they would have convicted for assault.

This is IMO really the moot point of why rapists walk free.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: frogprince
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:45 PM

I saw this yesterday, when I had not time to post, so some of this goes back aways:

Mauvepink said, "I stay away from the term provocative clothing as I cannot define what that is". Lonesome E.J. replied, "Oh come on", and described a rather extreme example. Neither of them is talking nonsense. No one would say there is no such thing as provocative clothing. But no one, apart from the mentality of the Taliban, would attempt to define a usable exact borderline between stylish attractive dress and the inappropriate.

Don't take me as in any way excusing assault on a woman because of her clothing or lack of clothing. Even complete nudity, in an inappropriate context, is absolutely no justification for rape.

I will say one thing that may bring some wrath on my head. Regarding a woman going to bed with a man, in a manner that would by all reasonable interpretation imply consent: she retains the right to change her mind, and say no; a man who doesn't respect that should not be held blameless. But if she has led him up to the point of intense arousal, and he doesn't stop, I can't see that he should be judged and penalized to the same degree as a man who has set out with the intention of rape.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:44 PM

"You obviously think it's just fine for her to behave however she wants, and to hell with everyone else. I'm saying it's not."

That is exactly what I am saying. The minute a woman says "No" it is "No".


I am still awaiting a response:

You said:"Blimey, I had no idea I twirled around,let alone suggestively! LOL "
But by your own admission, if a man was driven to rape by your innocent provocative display you would be partially to blame. No?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:37 PM

lizzie said "If someone licked my face, I'd clobber him."

you see lizzie, there are always certain lines that should not be crossed.
had i have been comfortable with it, it wouldn't have been a problem. all you need to do now, is put in sex instead of licking your face and you are there, it is happening. telling him no, you don't want it. you try and stop it, but he is too strong and heavy.

i am sorry for the description. if it brings back memories or upsets anyone. but these are the basics of rape. lizzie needs to hear this to try and understand how horrendous it actually is. this is not just words on a screen for alot of us, it is real.


i have been thinking about why alot of younger girls and women dress the way they do. it is all for self esteem. it is the only way they know to make themselves feel validated and worthwhile.
the difference is the intention. most go out and love it when they get eyed up or whistled at, it makes them feel good. however that does not translate into they are gagging for it.

it is one thing for a lad to yell (vulgur, yes, but not hurting anyone)
'get ya tits out'
it is a different thing for them to walk over and lift your top up to have a look for himself.

the difference is choice! whatever the intention, everyone has the right to only go as far as they feel comfortable. if that means stoppping short of full sex then that is what should be respected.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:37 PM

I think Vectis may have been proving a point by irony...

Of course it would not be right to hit her. And if it's not right to hit her then why is it right to rape her? Or, if not right, somehow more acceptable and less reprehensible?

That is how I read his post... by making a stupid suggestion he illustrates the main point quite well

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:37 PM

"Lizzie is arguing that there are some circumstances in which a woman deserves to get raped."

You said that, not me...actually. Do NOT put words like that in my mouth. Thank you.

"You, certainly Lizzie, are saying that a woman in that situation deserves a full-on sexual assualt / rape. That is outrageous, deeply stupid."

No, I said that a woman should take some of the responsibility for what can happen if she leads a man on and on and on, only to say she's changed her mind, like some kind of joke...

You obviously think it's just fine for her to behave however she wants, and to hell with everyone else. I'm saying it's not.

THAT is what I am saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Royston
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:32 PM

I read everything with an open mind MtheGM.

Lizzie is arguing that there are some circumstances in which a woman deserves to get raped.

She is stupid, you are stupid if you agree to that proposition.

There are some issues that do not have to be seen in shades of grey or seen as being nuanced. This is one such issue. It is utterly black and white. No, means No. Even if yes has been said and the act of sexual congress is under way, No means No and Stop means Stop. Simple as that. no equivocation.

Now if you say that that a woman who dresses in that "slap my bum" (with an arrow to her bum) T shirt is probably asking for a male (or female) contemporary to slap her bum, smile and make a flattering (or lewd, but playful) comment. Then, yes, I would agree with you.

But that is not what is being said. You, certainly Lizzie, are saying that a woman in that situation deserves a full-on sexual assualt / rape. That is outrageous, deeply stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:26 PM

Vectis ~ what a silly post! Of course he would not be justified in physical violence. Now here is a question back to you ~ would he be justified in telling her politely but firmly that she had behaved unacceptably? Or in calling her a mildish pejorative zoological name, like 'cow', say, or 'bitch'? Or what. I mean, in the 'just suppose' scenario you have postulated & then gone on fatuously to hyperbolise the possible response, what would YOU consider justified?

Just asking.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:26 PM

SRS... I am absolutely sure that the young woman who told me of her 'being taken' fantasy did NOT mean just 'any guy who hadn't been told in advance'. I'd bet that all she meant was that IF she was already attracted to him, that would be an exciting format. Knowing her, she would NOT have appreciated an attempt by some stranger in a dark alley. VERY few women would think such a thing was 'exciting'....

What I find bothers me in the thinking and exhortations in the thread are some of the single-minded "this is the way it IS, and there is only one sane attitude to have about ANY situation or individual".
   As I noted above, humans share certain traits with our remote mammalian ancestors. Males of many species DID originally fight each other for mates, and then expect their new mates.... or even 'harems' ...to cooperate. This still happens! Of course, in many species, especially NON-mammalian ones, there is a huge element of he females being choosy and wanting bright feathers first...etc. But in mammalian species, there remains the testosterone-fueled aggressive sexual/power/dominance behavior.
   Now, here we are...the only species which can really reflect on our own behavior, and who have constructed a society where aggressive sex...no matter for what reason.... is counter-productive and a serious problem!
We still HAVE men who can't cope with the frustrations of courtship and rejection, but think they can get what they want (whether for power/dominance OR just plain sex) and defy society to get it!
We KNOW this exists...and we KNOW it needs to be controlled... but 'some' of the ones entrusted with controlling it have a deep embedded sympathy for those who commit the offense! There are posts above recounting instances of rape where 'there just wasn't enough evidence', or 'the woman was judged to have been provocative'.
We KNOW we must get past those attitudes and 1)make it clear to boys, no matter what the situation that this will not be tolerated!, and 2)DEFINE clearly what 'this' is, so that judges & juries can't easily avoid convicting men who go too far.

...and yes, women need to be educated to be realistic about what to expect and how to avoid problems...and how best to respond if a problem develops. Note: I do NOT mean that "women must bear some of the responsibility" if some man refuses to hear "NO!"...I just mean that women need to be aware that some men WILL refuse to hear "NO!" This does not excuse the man! 'Strong urges' are NOT a defense.

Do I think all this finger pointing, name calling and line-in-the-sand drawing will do much good? Ha! I can imagine similar discussions & debates like this still happening hundreds of years from now.... I hope not, but I don't see the basic problem being solved. Maybe there will be 'some' better education and laws and developed, but this 'being human' thing has as many problems as virtues.

Folks...try to see the gray areas in the situation. It is not all clearly defined black & white.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:20 PM

WHY am I making you feel bad, jade? READ what I've said, read how many times I've said that innocent women who have been raped through no fault of their own are not who I am talking about here...READ how many times I've said there is no excuse for rape. But sometimes I can understand how it happens, why it happens...and it is never a good reason...

It should never happen, but it does. It always will do, I'm afraid. It has been happening since time began. Yes, we should be doing all we can to turn it around, but women behaving like the worst kind of lager lout is truly NOT helping the situation at all.

If someone licked my face, I'd clobber him.

We are living in scary times...Yesterday I heard three kids talking, two were girls, the other a young lad.."Clare tried to shag me yesterday" he said to the girls, who grinned at each other. They were about 13 years old I'd say. Today I was told that cases of Chlamydia are higher in Torquay than anywhere else in Devon..(nope, haven't checked it out yet, Emma) Kids are having sex younger and younger and younger..

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: vectis
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:19 PM

To use an analogy here.

Is it OK, when a woman leads a man on and then changes her mind, for him to beat the crap out of her?

Just asking...

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:15 PM

And that translate into if they are raped it is their fault?
You should be ashamed of yourself, Lizzie. And once again, I will repeat, that statistics do NOT show a correlation between dress and rape.

You said:"Blimey, I had no idea I twirled around,let alone suggestively! LOL "
But by your own admission, if a man was driven to rape by your innocent provocative display you would be partially to blame. No?