BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 02:21 PM

Amos, in the initial post the OP posted a link to a BBC news article about a the results of a survey* - the headline of which read

"Women say some rape victims should take blame"

It was indeed an assertion as one-third of the women interviewed blamed victims who had dressed provocatively or gone back to the attacker's house for a drink and more than half of those of both sexes questioned said there were some circumstances when a rape victim should accept responsibility for an attack.

*The online survey, titled Wake Up To Rape, polled 1,061 people aged 18 to 50, comprising 712 women and 349 men.

An Amnesty International report five years ago found that a significant minority of British people laid the blame for rape at victims themselves.
Following the results of this more recent survey Amnesty International's UK director Kate Allen said the new findings were "alarming but sadly not surprising".

"It is depressing that, nearly half a decade later, people are still quick to blame the victim of rape rather than placing the responsibility where it actually belongs - squarely on the shoulders of the perpetrator," she said.

I suppose it's equally "alarming but sadly not surprising". that some contributors to this thread should agree with the 'significant minority'

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 01:56 PM

""You may wish for our young women to carry on dressing like hookers, I don't. I see very young teenage girls all over Torquay, who move seductively, are way to aware of their bodies, the power they have, they are way too sexual for such a young age, and they are dressed appallingly for their age.""


Jealousy?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 01:53 PM

""Strikes me that women need to show some bloody self control too, you know, some self restraint...""

That's what they are doing when they say no, and that should be the point when the man complies.

Abbreviated dresses and too much to drink are not an open invitation to rape, except in the twisted minds of dinosaurs still living in the sixties.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Amos
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 01:47 PM

I find the title of this thread very irritating. I wish it would be at least rephrased as a qu8estion. As an assertion, it raises me hackles, it does.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: frogprince
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 01:35 PM

"Advocating abstention is a policy which has worked in America"
That would be a real laugh, if it wasn't such a sad idea of a joke. By all means, let parents try to impress children with the value of waiting for a measure of maturity. But can anyone really be unaware of what a farce policies of abstenance-only education have turned out to be?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 01:24 PM

And teenage sex has eaxctly what to do with a rape victim being blamed for being raped? Is there some suggestion that by some teenagers wanting to gave sex they are responisble if they get raped?

The point is lost on me somehow...

The topic is that of blame being put upon a victim and that this is unacceptable in any language.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 01:18 PM

"It has nothing to do, IMHO, with theoretical judgements from the deluded, the jealous, or the bureaucratically inclined."

It also has nothing whatsoever to do with this thread which seems to be the only one the new guest Bonzo Dog Doda has contributed to with this particular message - although we have seen other 'guests' espouse it from time to time.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Amos
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 01:14 PM

Sigh. To an average teenager--at least 16 or more--teenage sex is not only acceptable, it is THE highest good, Grail and goal to all social activity.

The fact that this occasionally culminates in actual teenage sex is pretty understandable, considering the magnitude of the repressed drives behind it. It has nothing to do, IMHO, with theoretical judgements from the deluded, the jealous, or the bureaucratically inclined. Might as well say evolution is unacceptable. It's going to happen regardless of opinion. SOme might even consider it owrth celebrating (especially the participants).

Dealing with the latent ramifications is another issue. I suspect if teenage pregnancy were not an issue, no-one would much care about teenage sex, except the participants.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Folkiedave
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 01:07 PM

Second time you have made that point.

Troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Bonzo Dog Doda
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 12:48 PM

Any young girl who becomes pregnant receives child tax credit, income support, child benefit and a £500 maternity grant and their rent and rates paid for them. The shocking extent of benefits made available to such gym-slip mums has to stop.


The government is effectively condoning under-age sex. It also puts a gloss on teenage motherhood, with the result being many youngsters consider it an attractive lifestyle.Perhaps most crucially, handouts like these make a mockery of the Government's strategy aimed at cutting teenage pregnancies.

The Government vowed to half the number of pregnant under-16s by 2010. But how can it achieve this goal when it is offering teenagers such 'help' as £500 maternity grants? These policies are simply encouraging pregnancies among young women.A lot of the ones on my estates admire their peers who have given birth and often seek to copy their status and acquire the free flat they think having a baby usually brings.

Such alarming attitudes should provide the government with a stark warning that welfare benefits to single teenage mothers need to be curtailed.Britain has long had among the highest teen pregnancy rates in the EU. The initiatives introduced to tackle the problem are not working. But this is shrugged off by the Government, which claims the situation will improve.



But how can it improve when teenagers are confronted at every turn with the notion that teenage sex is acceptable? Teenage pregnancy plotlines are now are in all of our television soaps.Then there's the government's promotion of abortion and contraception among school-aged children which in effect condones and encourages sexual activity.The Government must change tack and adopt a tougher line.



Advocating abstention is a policy which has worked in America. So, if America can cut teen pregnancies, why can't we? Britain has effectively made under-age sex acceptable by handing out condoms to children and proposing confidential sex counselling to girls under 16.
Why aren't we reinforcing the meaning between sex and love and the importance of committment between sexual partners? Education is vital in combatting teenage pregnancies, not the incentives for young mums-to-be that come with generous financial handouts.


It's not good enough for parents, or the government, to throw their hands up in their air and say the battle can't be won.Our role as responsible parents is to tell our teenagers that sex under 16 is wrong and against their best interests. Terrify them with the consequences, show them examples of the uphill battle children who have children face. These young mums seem to have enough money to booze their weekends away and bring home a string of men, exposing their children to God knows what. Benefits to this section of society must be cut.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 09:41 AM

To return hopefully for the last time.....

Teach your kids well - and also, in the knowledge and understanding of the past

Throughout history (rape is by no means a recent phenomena) definitions of rape were a function of cultural attitudes toward violence and its victims, who were mostly society's weakest members--poor women and children.

During the 'early modern period', women and children were viewed as the property of males, instead of as autonomous individuals.
Rape was therefore a form of theft in which the victim was always suspected of complicity and morally tainted by involvement, no matter how unwitting, in the act

Convictions against rapists were nearly impossible to win in court because definitions of the crime were narrow, the most blatant evidence tended to be ignored, and judges assumed that even the youngest victims were somehow accomplices in the crime.

As Western society became less tolerant of violence against the person, especially toward children, and more conscious of rape's psychological damage to the individual, it began to "see" sexual violence in cases where previously it had discerned only a misdemeanor towards which justice, in spite of the harsh penalties the law prescribed for rape, was accustomed to turning a blind eye.

The growth of the popular press in the eighteenth century fostered a public opinion less tolerant of violence. The development of medical interest in the anatomical traces of rape, and, in the later nineteenth century, of interest also in the psychological scars, focused attention on the victim as an individual.

Child rape began to be more vigorously condemned, especially its violence and physical wounds.

In more recent times, laws were easier to alter than the attitudes and behaviour of those who administered them

Nevertheless, society began to view the rapist as a criminal instead of as an ordinary person temporarily blinded by lust.

However, it was not until the 1970s that women forced the courts to take rape against adult women seriously, and to combat defence strategies that "blamed the victim" for the attack

It seems, from the origin of this thread and some contibutions, this battle against archaic cultural suspicions regarding the veracity and moral probity of rape victims has not yet been won but…..


Teach your children better!

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 09:30 AM

how do you mean sinsull? we might have gone round in circles a few times, but i feel that something has come from this, a deeper understanding maybe. or maybe i am just feeling alot less angry than i did yesterday.
although we are all entilted to our points of veiw, it is important to try and understand, even if we can't agree.

i can see where lizzie is coming from even though i think she is totally wrong. the differencr today is that she has mafde an effort to explain in a non judgmental and non accusing type of way.

for me, there can be no blame what so ever on the victim of rape.

i assumme the lust of both men and women run along the same lines. one has a bit that sticks out and one has one that goes in. i would have thought the urges are exactly the same?

the other point i would like to steal from my favourite books is that the human species is the only one that uses force for sex.
in nature it is always the females choice, the male can try and try but can only penetrate if the female consents.

take care all
jade x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 09:05 AM

Unfortunately, a potentially good discussion has turned into the usual slug fest with no attention being paid to the original post. Too bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:42 AM

Maybe it would be good if the girl could put her hand up and say "You're right, I was a fool, I never meant it to go that far. I hate what you did to me, but I understand now that I should never have taken you to that point in the first place. It doesn't excuse what either of us did, we both behaved very stupidly."

Doesn't work for me I'm afraid. Once you start to go down the road of how far did the girl lead him on you will inevitably get into the realm of diminished responsibility. If you are happy for the man to have his sentance reduced on those grounds then, fair enough, that is and always must be the womans choice. I don't believe that having a high testosterone count and an erection is any more an excuse that is high levels of alcohol but that is just me. Don't forget that by accepting part of the blame the girl is saying that it was not 100% the mans fault and he should not, therefore, get 100% of the punishment!

I will also say Dunno, could be wrong, but I'm just putting a different view across. I strongly suspect that neither of us is 100% right but I would lay odds that any concencus taken would put the blame fairly and squarely on the man.

I do resent the suggestion that most men nowadays have been somehow 'brainwashed' by feminists, just as much as I refute the claim that a man would reach a point where he could not stop. I am as much an MCP as ever. I long for those days of yore when the little lady would be waiting at home, bedecked in gingham, with steak pie in the oven, slippers by the fire and rough shag in the pipe. But I am a realist and accept that those days have gone, along with good girls being in by 10, bear baiting and consumption. We all have to take the rough with the smooth I'm afriad...:-P

I think I have now covered all the counters but I could be surprised. may join in again if there is anything new.

TTFN

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:41 AM

OK I think I have got it now!

Although my, and possibly many other peoples experiences, may be very different from yours Lizzie you can still nevertheless inform everyone that

"that just never happened back then."

without expecting to asked for some justification of your presumptuous pronouncements.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:14 AM

"Emma, I'm not talking about your 'facts'"

They are NOT 'my' facts but the figures from the Office of National statistics

Maybe I could suggest there is more 'outside the box' of your own limited experiences or at least you could give us the benefit of the sources of just where else you get your presumptuous statements from so that we can reach a considered opinion on them?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:07 AM

Maybe that's because a fair amount of back-tracking has gone on, Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:06 AM

Ya' know... I don't see where anyone is condoning rape here... Maybe I am missin' something???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:01 AM

Emma, I'm not talking about your 'facts' I'm talking about the experience of my children, my friend's children, their friends, how they feel etc...

I was born in 1955. My memories are exactly as I write them, but I fully appreciate they may be different to yours for a myriad of different reasons..

And I'm leaving this thread now, with Bruce's wise words:

"...Teach your kids well. When you ain't around anymore, they'll be looking out for themselves."

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:55 AM

That Katie Price link didn't work above, sorry...

Try this - Jordan/Katie Price's daughter


Dave, no rape is justifiable, but I feel there are different forms of it, as someone suggested earlier on. (Pre-meditated etc...)

That does not make ANY form right, or excusable. But if someone has been literally taken to the edge, sexually, played along with and been led to openly believe that willing full sexual intercourse is what is on offer, and then, at the final moment that offer is suddenly withdrawn, I think that some folks would realise that, anger, bewilderment and frustration had a huge part to play in what may happen next.


However, rape is still rape, and any man who chooses to cross that threshold must be aware of what he's doing and be prepared to suffer the consequences of that. But in those circumstances, I feel the blame should be shared out a little, don't you?

Maybe it would be good if the girl could put her hand up and say "You're right, I was a fool, I never meant it to go that far. I hate what you did to me, but I understand now that I should never have taken you to that point in the first place. It doesn't excuse what either of us did, we both behaved very stupidly."

And he could apologise too, profusely, on his knees! And then, who knows, the healing process may start to happen, for them both, because I should think that in that set of circumstances, the man involved would feel horrified at what he'd done.

Dunno, could be wrong, but I'm just putting a different view across.




For those who rape strangers, prowling upon them, seeing all women as 'asking for it'...well, I'd shoot 'em dead, that way you'd not have nutters like The Yorkshire Ripper coming to the end of his sentence, because his sentence should never end. His punishment did NOT fit his crime. Last year it was stated that he was now a low-risk prisoner and should be freed.#

He raped and cut up 13 women. He will NEVER be low risk anything.

Those who rape, repeatedly, should never be allowed out of prison, ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:50 AM

Off topic (sorry) but just as an aside to another of Lizzies 'facts'

"in the same way that young people are now, told they must leave home by 16/17..made to feel weird if they don't"

In FACT,

The growing reluctance of Britain's twenty- and thirtysomethings to fly the parental nest was revealed last April by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) in its annual report on the latest social trends.
The latest available figures were for the second quarter of 2008. They showed 29% of men aged 20-34 and 18% of women of the same age lived with their parents.
This compared with 27% of men and 15% of women in 2001.

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

I was a tennager in the 50s and 60s - my memory is quite different from Lizzies who must have been pre school age in the 50s I think; but maybe my advanced years have given me a better long term memory of the times :)

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:35 AM

Oh - and I still pick up 20-30 year old offspring from nights out. But only if they ask me to. With the price of taxis they know they are onto a winner:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:32 AM

Thanks again Lizzie. I disagree but at least it was put in a reasonable manner that even I could understand:-) What I will add is why I disagree and would be interested in your views on that.

You say because without the first behaviour, the second may never have happened. I am sure you are aware that all crimes can carry a charge for anyone who did not actualy commit the crime but did something to assist. It is called aiding and abbeting. So, in our scenario, the man committed the crime but without the girl's actions he would not have done it. She has aided and abbeted in that crime as, without her actions, there would not have been a crime in the first place. So, do we punish her as well?

Better still, should we make it a crime to encourage people to commit other crimes? Incitement to racial hatred is already a crime. Why don't we make incitement to rape another? That way we are preventing crime rather than picking up the pieces. Only slight problem is, who will determine what that incitement actualy is? The girl out on the town flashing 'em for the lads? The Pussycat Dolls goading lads into wishing their girlfriends were 'hot like me'? Maddy Prior for asking us to 'Ruffle up the feathers in the Cuckoos nest'? Where will it stop?

Once you are on the slippery slope of justifying ANY rape I am afraid there will be no stopping. Nothing to do with sexism. Nothing to do with believing women over men or vice versa. Just, quite simply, rape should NEVER be mitigated by circumstance. Either the woman has consented, in which case there is no crime, or she has not, in which case it is rape.

That is why I disagree. Oh - BTW - you are completely wrong when you say You possibly may feel that they shouldn't even be warned never to do that again, because it is their 'right' to do exactly that, over and over, should they want. You could not be further from the truth but it has nothing whatsoever to do with the point in question.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:22 AM

You have every right to stop anything, at any time, jade. Both my children know that.

Thank you for your kind reply, and I would very much hope that we are still friends. x

And yes, it is a quaint old fashioned story, but it is the story of how I grew up. My parents were always outside to meet me, or my friend's parents were. We were not pulled away from our parents, from our families, in the same way that young people are now, told they must leave home by 16/17..made to feel weird if they don't..We were simply happy to be having fun...and dancing at the disco was exactly that, with a bit of kissing maybe, if you went there with your boyfriend.

Most lads were well behaved, but there was always the chancer who'd put his hands on your bottom whilst you were dancing. You simply moved them up to your waist..and if he put them down again, you walked away, back to your friends.

My friend's daughter had her drink spiked a few years back, she suddenly couldn't stand up. Luckily, her friends were close by, realised what had happened and surrounded her immediately, getting her home as fast as they could.   It affected the young girl deeply and she ended up seeing a psychiatrist...She was no shrinking violet, but she realised how vulnerable she was and that frightened her. She's fine now, married, running a pub...

But yes, times have changed a great deal, because that just never happened back then.



Emma, Bruce also mentioned about the young girl whose mother dressed her up as a little adult, put her on the Beauty Pageant Circle...

Well take a look at what Katie Price (Jordan) did to her 2 year old the other day..and those photos went on the internet, via Facebook.

Jordan's daughter

her ex-husband, quite rightly was utterly shocked.

Jordan is seen as some kind of weird 'heroine' by many young girls these days, who copy her every look, her every move...Personally, that frightens the shite out me, as does that photo of her little girl. I worry about her future, I really do.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:59 AM

lizzie, thanks for explaining. although i still disagree, you did explain that in a way i could understand. it is easy to see the generational gap even from your teens and mine.

your senario shows a quaintness that doesn't happen very often anymore which is parental knowledege and involment and even interest.

i watch jeremy kyle and am gobsmaked at the amount of people who will sleep around and have kids through one night stands. but that is me being the age i am thinking, it wasn't that bad when i was younger.
by the way, im in my 30s now, not sure how that matters but just to let you know. i have in my time, stopped something because i wasn't comfortable with going any further. i think sex should be on a step by step basis. just because you are comfortable doing one thing doesn't mean you have to do the next step.

however looking back to past times doesn't help, it never has done and never will. times change and we have to change with them.

have a great day everyone
take care
jade x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:54 AM

"In either case how is the penalty apportioned? After all, it is a crime, both parties are responsible, therefore both parties must be punished."


Yes, both parties are responsible in their own way. Had the girl not behaved as she did what followed would most probably never have happened. Therefore she instigated that set of circumstances happening, whether she wants to believe that, or not.

However, that does not excuse the boy at all.

If you are willing to start the ball rolling, then you have to be willing to possibly have to roll with it. You do not have to start that ball at all, of course, because you are free to take that decision from the beginning. It is vital to be aware of the consequences of your actions, and we have stopped telling young women about that, instead telling them they have every right in the world to behave as appallingly as they so choose.

The girl in your story led him on, David, in a quite outrageous way. I would hardly say she was innocent, would you?   

You feel that women should have no responsibility whatsoever, no matter what they've done to possibly create the situation above in the first place. You possibly may feel that they shouldn't even be warned never to do that again, because it is their 'right' to do exactly that, over and over, should they want.

I don't feel that way at all.   

You are about Personal Irresponsibility for women, but not for men.
I am about Personal Responsibility for both men and women.

I believe that both were wrong, because without the first behaviour, the second may never have happened. But that does not let the man off the hook, because he should have controlled himself and walked away. He chose not to, so therefore he is accountable for the punishment he knows will happen to him.

We differ and should agree to differ, as this is getting boring and going absolutely nowhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:51 AM

Bruce makes the point at 16 Feb 10 - 09:00 PM to teach your children well.

As long some people continue to place blame on women for provoking being raped by their dress or drinking they will fail in that duty as the parents of the boys and men who go on to rape secure in the knowledge that the woman 'deliberately sent out ALL the wrong messages ' and are thus absolved of the responsibility for their actions or misinterpretation of the so called 'messages'

Researchers consistently have found that approximately one-half of all sexual assaults are committed by men who have been drinking alcohol.
Depending on the sample studied and the measures used, the estimates for alcohol use among perpetrators have ranged from 34 to 74 percent (Abbey et al. 1994; Crowell and Burgess 1996
Although the same study has shown that similar numbers of the victims had also been drinking this is hardly surprising as in social situations (e.g., in bars or at parties), drinking tends to be a shared activity.

It is important to emphasize, however, that although a woman's alcohol consumption may place her at increased risk of sexual assault, she is in no way responsible for the assault.
THE PERPETRATORS ARE LEGALLY AND MORALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR BEHAVIOUR!


PARENTS OF YOUNG RAPISTS FINED

In the news recently is the Italian judge who, in a landmark ruling, fined the parents of rapists for failures in upbringing.

In a written judgment, the judge said the defendants came from seemingly normal families. Yet they appeared to have no understanding of the gravity of what they had done. They had given evidence about the rapes in a way that was "aseptic", she said.

The judge said this showed the accused had not been brought up "in a context of respect for the feelings, wishes and bodies of others".

In their defence, the mothers and fathers of the boys had offered various examples of their supposedly good parenting and testified that their children were 'brought up to be good Christians'


Lizzie says

"I have the utmost sympathy for women who've been raped in the most innocent of circumstances, who have done nothing to entice a man, but have simply been in the wrong place at the wrong time, when some bloody nutter has pounced on them. Or who has been the victim of a vicious and planned attack, by a crazy or vindictive relative or colleague"
"I also have the utmost sympathy for women who have been raped in an innocent situation but who have then been accused of "she led me on, she was gagging for it!" when no such thing ever happened."

Of course hegemonic masculinity is the most common blueprint in Western culture and I don't suppose there is really any point in presenting further evidence against such entrenched simplistic opinions that acquaintance rapes simply don't fall into these 'neat' categories

Real life is not the black, white and rosy glow of Lizzieworld

"rape will never be treated as the horrendous crime it is as long as courts give out jail terms which are a fuckin' joke"

- and as long as the victim is perceived by some people to carry responsibility for a criminal assault the courts will reflect this distorted perspective too.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:40 AM

"One other thing: Lizzie, I don't care who you know who was abused as a child. You have not had that experience yourself, so you do NOT understand it. You have not experienced it, you have not lived it. You can not know what it really means, any more than I could understand what it's like to be black, just because I have black friends. Or know what it is to have my body mutilated by cancer and nearly die of it, just because my mother did. You have already tried to own the experiences of various people on this forum, including the parents of autistic children. All I am going to say is, just walk away from this"


Now that's a weird one, because you claim to know exactly how I think, what every word I write means. You claim to know more about my life than I do, when you in fact know absolutely nothing of any importance.

May I suggest that you too walk away from claiming my life as your own.

I know, from growing up with a mother who was abused, how that abuse affected her in her life and in the way she was with other people. I was her daughter, you weren't. You have your life, I know nothing about it, nor want to, nor would I put anything about your life, or those people you love, on this board. You think it is your right to do that to me. It is not.

It is not my fault that something happened to you. It is not your fault either. It was not my mum's fault, and I'm sorry if the fact that it happened to my mum annoys you, but happen it did. I didn't know about it until I was in my 30s, but suddenly, so many things in my life made sense, how I'd been treated, things she'd said and did, how she was about many things..It all began to make sense. The fault for her unhappiness lay with my Great Uncle, her father's brother, a man she spent many hours with, left there by her parents, in complete trust..and Uncle Tom and Auntie Elfrida's house was just down the road from her own. It must have been terrible for her, and it caused much unhappiness down the years, to many people who knew nothing of what had happened in her life, my immediate family included.

As to autism, that's in the other thread. I don't 'own' it, but I do have people in my family who have it, again, whether you like it or not, Joan. Please butt out of my life and get over your anger with me. Blame it on the Boogie, but don't damn well blame it on me, any longer. I've been there, done that and got the T shirt.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:34 AM

Ok - Thanks Lizzie. I really am a bit slow at times and need to be spoon fed, so just to make sure I am getting it right can I ask the following?

Do you believe that BOTH parties are 'completely at fault'?

A simple yes or no is all I need.

If it is yes I point out that I have already disagreed but will fully accept that you are entitled to that view. If no then we need to find out how do we allocate how much each party is to blame and who decides how much each party is to blame.

In either case how is the penalty apportioned? After all, it is a crime, both parties are responsible, therefore both parties must be punished.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:27 AM

Richard, you know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm talking about teenagers, young people, who are made to feel that sex on the first date is normal. Peer pressure...I am NOT Victorian, believe me, but I do think we have lost something very special along the road to Sex, Instead of Love.

And now, back to the topic title....

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:21 AM

"There is absolutely no evidence to say that, none whatsoever. I am not questioning you how you brought your children up - but I doubt you would say that about them. So do you not think it is wise to apply the same rules to other people's children?"

Exactly. I am sick of seeing everyone else's children portrayed as predatory, immoral slappers who only get what's coming to them if they get raped. I'm not sure why the world, in Lizzie's scary head, has to be divided into either this feral, predatory place where everyone else's kids are out on the town getting sloshed, walking around half-naked and having underage sex with strangers in alleys, but in Lizziana, that dream Mills and Boon world which presumably Lizzie thinks that she and her kids inhabit, it's like the freakin' Waltons.

Like most of the paranoid oppositions that Lizzie sets up, somewhere in the middle is probably the reality of the situation for most people. The only reason it matters is because all this railing against the morals of everyone's kids (but her own) is ultimately a red herring. As has been pointed out exhaustively, the great majority of rapes are NOT committed by strangers, but by people known to their victim. Therefore, there is no evidence that women dressing provocatively is responsible for some sort of rape epidemic. In fact, all the studies would suggest that this has had little impact.

Kids need to be taught to be safe and to take responsibility for their actions. Amazingly, not every kid is going to do what their mum and dad recommends as sensible behaviour. Just because someone is being young and stupid and pushing the boundaries (and, I would say again, being manipulated by the sex industry,the soft porn media and the weird celebrity culture we live in, which all contribute to the normalisation of certain behaviours), it does NOT mean that they deserve to be raped, nor that they should ever be made to feel guilty or responsible for the crime that has been committed against them. They are VICTIMS. End of.

One other thing: Lizzie, I don't care who you know who was abused as a child. You have not had that experience yourself, so you do NOT understand it. You have not experienced it, you have not lived it. You can not know what it really means, any more than I could understand what it's like to be black, just because I have black friends. Or know what it is to have my body mutilated by cancer and nearly die of it, just because my mother did. You have already tried to own the experiences of various people on this forum, including the parents of autistic children. All I am going to say is, just walk away from this

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:18 AM

"Very nice. Mills and Boon are missing a good author and all that but I refer to the last, still unanswered, line of my post."

I did answer it.


"He is completely at fault for overstepping that line.
She is completely at fault for making him think she was 'gagging for it' in the first place, giving him completely the wrong message."

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:11 AM

What's wrong with sex on the first or any other date, if both parties wish it?

Hell's bells, woman, do you not recall the misery and suffering created by the Victorian nightmare that you seem to worship? Set the people free. They can make their own choices without Mrs Grundy measuring how much leg they are showing. Repression is evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Bonzo Dog Doda
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:06 AM

Every weekend packs of teenage girls on the housing estate I live head out to night clubs dressed like hookers in mirco mini skirts and low cut top with all their bits hanging out. They arrive home around 2 or 3 am roaring and shouting and a few just sleep were they fall. Plenty of male hunting packs arrive following the scent of a bit of jockeying.

A few have cried rape in the past, none of the cases stood up in court. Women have to take some of the blame if they act in this manner.

Most graduate into single mothers with a selection of kids to different fathers and the taxpayer picks up the bill. They enjoy a great lifestyle with a nice income and a few nights out a week and their rent and rates are paid for by you and I.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Folkiedave
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:47 AM

Lads expect sex on the first date, as do the girls

There is absolutely no evidence to say that, none whatsoever. I am not questioning you how you brought your children up - but I doubt you would say that about them. So do you not think it is wise to apply the same rules to other people's children?

The kind of people who expect sex on the first date, and there is plenty of anecdotal evidence for this - are those who have met in internet chat rooms or other ways across the ether.

Their first date is often in a hotel room.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:27 AM

Very nice. Mills and Boon are missing a good author and all that but I refer to the last, still unanswered, line of my post.

No trick questions. No hidden agenda. Who is responsible for the rape?

I really do want to get out of here but I want to know your take on that. See, your views are important, even to those who may disagree. So, once again. Who is repsonsible for the rape?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:14 AM

From Dave, with comment at start from someone else...

She IS doing harm by dressing or behaving 'provocatively' if she doesn't intend to put out: she is committing a gross breach of manners

Sorry - Bad manners = No harm done. Rape = Lots of harm done. No over-simplifycation. Just plain fact. But just in case let us take a more complex example. Sorry if this has happened to anyone and I sincerley hope I not opening old wounds.

Chantelle goes to the disco - Dressed in the previously described manner. She has a few drinks, wiggles her bottom and flashes her boobs at Wayne, who fancies her like mad. He buys her a couple more drinks and then walks her home. She fancies him as well and gives his tonsils a good bashing with her tongue at the street corner before she says goodnight. It is not enough for him and he says he wants sex. She says no but he will not take no for an answer, drags her down an alley and rapes her.

Really easy question here for anyone - but specificaly for Lizzie and MtheGM. No trick questions. No hidden agenda. Who is responsible for the rape?

DeG<<<<<


OK....well first of all I don't understand any woman who'd 'get her boobs out' to anyone, unless she's trying to get that man heavily interested in her. But to do that in a public place is just alient to me...The message she's putting out is brazenly obvious. She then, in your story, chose to go home with him, snogged him like it was the end of the world, obviously getting him even more aroused and then, when he thought she was the kind of girl who'd get her boobs out for anyone, as she had done earlier on, and asked or expected her to go the whole way, she suddenly decided to turn into Miss Innocent and changed her mind. He gets angry, whilst still aroused...and decides to overstep that line.

He is completely at fault for overstepping that line.
She is completely at fault for making him think she was 'gagging for it' in the first place, giving him completely the wrong message.

IF she had wanted to be treated differently, then perhaps she should have done this....

'Chantelle goes to the disco, dressed differently from her pals. Wayne's intrigued...she looks like no other woman he's seen before. He fancies her like mad! She doesn't wiggle her bum at him, nor does she get her boobs out, hell, he's so fed up with slutty women who do that. But this girl, THIS girl is different, refreshing, seems to have self respect. She smiles at him and he smiles back. He decides to be brave and asks if she'd like a drink, and she says "Yes, that'd be lovely, thanks." They start chattering away, find they have a lot in common...sharing some dances.   

At the end of the evening he asks if he can walk her home, and she says 'Thanks, but Dad's picking me up, he's kinda hot about things like that." Wayne makes a note that her Dad cares a great deal about her, so he's NOT to upset him.

So, he asks if she'd like to go for a coffee the next day, and she says "Yes, that'd be great! Thank you!" He helps her on with her coat, escorts her to the door, sees her safely to her Dad's car (and boy, is Dad impressed!) then waves goodbye, feeling that he may just have found, at long, long last, his 'One in a Million' girl.   

Wayne goes home with a smile on his face.
Chantelle goes home with a smile on her face...

And Dad drives home thinking 'He seemed a nice lad!"

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 04:51 AM

"now to lizzie, yes you have answered some of the things i have put to you, but whenever i try to ask you where the line is, you duck out. the lifting a girls top, a woman who won't stop?"



If women want to go round flashing their boobs 'just because they want to, chances are they're going to get into trouble, more likely than not. And again, they have to take some of the responsibility for that, most of it actually, because if they hadn't done it, they wouldn't find themselves in whatever situation might follow. If a man lifted my top, against my will, he'd end up on the other side of the room, as did a man once who tried to touch my tummy.


I come from a very different time, jade..I went to the toughest school in my area..and my friends did not behave in the way so many young people (and older ones) now do, nor did they live the repressed and awful life that Lox paints above. Most women were NOT raped by their husbands. I've no doubt some were, and that some still are. It happens...and unless we reach the point where a Consent Form is signed each and every time before sex, then things are going to become more and more confusing....and if you have to get someone to sign a consent form, then you are with the WRONG person.

We didn't analyse things, we just knew where the line was. Yes, I'm sure there were some girls who over-stepped it, some are far more sexually active at a younger age than others, but for the most part we got to know boyfriends first...often it was months before anything went further.

It really was frowned upon to sleep with man after man after man, and you were labelled a slag if you did that. That's how society was, but it sure kept the majority of women safe and it was alien to most of us to even consider sleeping with loads of different men.


I have the utmost sympathy for women who've been raped in the most innocent of circumstances, who have done nothing to entice a man, but have simply been in the wrong place at the wrong time, when some bloody nutter has pounced on them. Or who has been the victim of a vicious and planned attack, by a crazy or vindictive relative or colleague. Likewise with young children, both male and female, who have simply been the very innocent victims of ruthless paedeophiles. I also have the utmost sympathy for women who have been raped in an innocent situation but who have then been accused of "she led me on, she was gagging for it!" when no such thing ever happened...

BUT....


..IF a woman HAS put herself into a bloody stupid situation, led a man on, deliberately sent out ALL the wrong messages and then changes her mind, either through fear or plain bitchiness, then she has to recognise that had she NOT behaved that way in the first place that situation would never have got to that point.

I don't see how anyone can disagree with that, but I'm sure some will.

It is damned stupid to believe that 'Oh I can go as far as I want here, because he's a man and he'll stop.' because sometimes that won't happen I'm afraid...and women who think like that are hugely naive.

I still have sympathy for her afterwards, but I also feel that she should look at her behaviour and ensure she never ever puts herself into that situation again, which I'm sure she wouldn't. I'd be far happier if she'd been told before that ever happened that to behave in that way could well bring huge trouble.

I don't 'frighten' my children, jade, but they're street wise and know the rules, they have a huge amount of self respect and respect for others too. Both of them would be first on the scene to help someone if ever they saw something terrible about to happen.

But women need to know that they have a responsibility to keep themselves safe as much as they possibly can, look after themselves as much as they are able, be aware of how 'out of control' behaviour attracts the wrong kind of attention. And that goes for young lads too, because there's one helluva lot of kids out there who are getting themselves into terrible situations because society has removed all the rules. We have separated Love from Sex, turning the first into the second, with no emotional attachment, barely anything more than a physical act at the end of the night, acted out with different people, depending on who's available that evening.

It's shocking and it's terribly, deeply sad.

Men have a responsibility towards women, a huge responsibility.
BUT, women have that same responsibility.


Because one young woman chose to be completely irresponsible, and lied about my friend Paul, he ended up swinging from a tree and his family blew apart. She had no right to tell such terrible lies about her teacher, who was a good and decent man, a wonderful father, a great person well loved and respected in his village and a brilliant history teacher.

But she did, because she thought it was a bit of fun..and because he had, quite rightly, rebuffed her advances, her 'teenage crush'. However, because she was a woman, albeit a very young woman, she was believed automatically right from the start, he was not. And when she finally told the truth, the traumatising damage had already gone too deep inside his dear soul.

We all have a responsibility to each other, and we should never forget that, ever.


And if someone messed with either of my children, they'd have me to answer to, as well as the law.


And no, I don't feel that convincing women into thinking rampant sex is OK is a good thing, Richard. But that's just old-fashioned me talking.   



And Liz, having just seen your post, as I stated earlier on, I know only too well how so many rapes happen because of people who are known to the victim. My own mother was severely molested as a child, took her 50 years to talk about it, just the one time, then she never mentioned it again. I've another friend whose grandfather raped her when she was little, her family chose to never do anything about it, because they couldn't deal with the situation. It blew them apart and that damage is still going on, 40 years later, because even to this day her family won't talk about it. The grandfather died a long, long time ago, with no justice ever having been given to his grandaughter...

So yes, I get it. I get it only too well.

And there is NO guilt involved in those cases, nothing that could have been done to avoid the situation, because those situations were all planned by the men who did what they did to their wholly innocent victims. Their punishment should be the rest of their lives in prison, although I think that even that is too good for them to be honest.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 04:28 AM

Gnu - See your PM's.

Lizzie - I am refering to my post Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:28 PM in which I explain in detail the circumstances I am talking about. I have neither the time nor inclination to post it again if you cannot be bothered to read it first time around.

Let me make my position crystal clear for any that do not understand.

1. Rape is wrong REGARDLESS of the circumstances.

2. Young people, any people, are free to wear whatever they want. They are free to behave stupidly without the threat of forced sex. Whether they should be censured in any other way is an entirely different argument and one I do not wish to enter into.

3. By saying that SOME rape victims should take blame we cast doubt into EVERY rape victims mind as to whether they should be blaming themselves. This is not only wrong but playing into the hand of the rapist. If just one victim is found to be partialy liable then EVERY case will be tried in that basis.

4. Women who make false rape allegations are wrong but I have faith that the legal system will protect the accused. One point I wholeheartedly agree with Lizzie on is that the accused should not be named until the accusation is proven. I do not know the legal situation on that - Richard, can you tell us?

5. Anyone who jumps onto a thread about rape to have arguments that have nothing to do with the crime and score personal points is wrong. I am not saying anyone on here has done so but some of the arguments have been proven to have nothing to do with the crime. See 2, above.

Now, following in MtheGMs footsteps, I have made my points. There is nothing further to add really. If anyone wants to continue to try and convince me otherwise I would suggest a PM as I think everything that needs to be said, any many things that need not, have already been aired in public.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 04:03 AM

"Tell them that it's dangerous to get legless, especially when you're wearing a legless outfit! Tell them it's dangerous to get into a taxi when you're on your own and blind drunk! Tell them there are men out there who'll spike your drinks, rape you without a second thought and if they see you already legless then you are a prime target! And tell them that those kind of men hang around late night pubs and clubs..."

Still don't get that bit about how less than 5% of rapists are unknown to their victim do you...

It means that NINETY FIVE PERCENT are family, friends, colleagues, neighbours, school mates, people you know and should be able to trust.

Which in turn means that rape is more likely to happen in the daylight, in your home, your neighbour's home, in their car...

It means that rape is more likely to happen when you are dressed in your work clothes (which unless you work in the sex industry are not likely to be "provocative"), or your workout joggers, or your everyday jeans and shirt, or your tatty, frumpy dressing gown and wynciette pyjamas...

And that is only the REPORTED cases. How many more go unreported simply BECAUSE it was a friend, a partner, a co-worker or the window-cleaner?

If we only warn our children about the dangers from one small facet of their lives, are we not ourselves partly to blame when it all blows up? But then, if we overprotect them, wrap them head to toe in fleecy blankies and don't let them out of the house until the day of their wedding to a person who's been vetted, psychoanalised, investigated, honey-trapped and found to be a Good Person, we do our children an even greater disservice.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 03:20 AM

Women should be every bit as free to enjoy their sexuality as anyone else. The repressive attribution of "responsibility" above is rooted in denial of that right.

Lizzie, if women want to refrain from sexual expression that is their right, and nowhere did I say that the ranges I mentioned replaced others. I insist however that they are legitimate choices, so long as they are choices.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 12:40 AM

'MtheGM - as you have not been on the thread I assume you are doing other things. As I am. Sad as it is I am going to watch the Brits to see if I can spot any skimpy clothes...'

No, DeG, I'm still here & have been keeping up: have even just read all posted overnite incl this of yours. Just that I have made my points & have no more to add ~ & unlike many on this & other such on&on&on threads, feel no obligation to say it all again.

Will just say that, whatever either the morality or the statistics, with neither of which I argue, I don't think anyone has improved on the adjective I used of the "Spank my bare bottom please" t-shirt wearer I wrote of, that she was being *UNWISE*. Of course no-one 'deserves' to be raped, or should, in words of thread title, bear any 'blame' for being raped. But a bit of WISDOM might occasionally go some way towards obviating such an occurrence ~~ even if in only 4·4% of instances, that would be something, wouldn't it?

Now I have done ~ unless, of course, anyone wants to come back on me again: I am only human so I have my instinctive responses: so if you get at me & I reply you will only have yourself to BLAME!

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Janie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:59 PM

No jeddy.

See pm.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:50 PM

janie, i do hope you are not refering to me?

i agree bruce, we should know how to protect ourselves. however if we don't we should be able to rely on family and friends being suportive enough to help us go to the police. juries can do their bit in not judging the woman before they have all the facts.

there are points i agree with. that people can get themselves into very stupid situations, but we all do it! we don't go around accusing people because they have made a mistake. it seems with this crime there is always a doubt about blame. as well as blame though we should have compassion. i take the point tht a menatly unstable person, isn't always in control of what they do, this does not mean they are any less in the wrong if they rape someone.

if only all parents were so supportive in teaching their kids to get out of trouble, but not scare them about the world either. it is, as most things educational, a balancing act.

as for society at present, we have problems yes. i have no answers to combat bing drinking for example, as i am not around kids very much.
the fashion of skimpy clothing although a red herring in as far as rape goes, is more a case of following the trends. not being able to decide what looks good on the lass concerned, but wearing what is in fashion.
i am sure that every generation thinks the sme way about the youngsters dress sense as well as their musical taste, that is just the way of the world, the younger ones finding their own thing.

as for the provication, well all i can say is if someone wins you up and you hit them, although a crime if you have tried to walk away and have been followed, then you have shown suffient restraint in my eyes. rape is different. i do not believe for an instant that someone can't control their lust.
i am sure we have all at some stage stopped or been stopped before being satisfied? i know how incredibly frustrating that can be, but to lead to forcing someone? getting up storing around and sulking i find ordinary, but rape? no.

now to lizzie, yes you have answered some of the things i have put to you, but whenever i try to ask you where the line is, you duck out. the lifting a girls top, a woman who won't stop?
the issue was some people can't help it, i wanted to know at what stage does this first start for you?
you are right though, the answers you did give me i didn't like and quite frankly i don't understand.
i don't understand how you can rant about having womans rights one day and be against them the next.
i don't understand how you want to be free of the fear of judgment when you judge others so harshly.
i don't understand that you say rape is wrong, and no means no, then in the next sentance say that only applies in certain situations.

take care all, not sure i will be posting anymore as this has run it's course but i would like to try to get people who haven't been there to understand. without i hope, having to go through it for yourselves. i wish it on no one.
jade x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Janie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 09:51 PM

"A person acting responsibly, does not get drunk and get into bed with a stranger."

Now there's a diistinction that means something.

Being responsible for ones-self is not the same thing as being responsible for being raped.

Well said, Lox. And actually on topic.

Bill D., I normally agree with you. It seems to me, however, that you have contradicted yourself when you agree that No means No, but also say there is a gray area. I confess I have not read most of this thread, and so perhaps do not have the context needed to understand your remarks.

I am hesitant to label some one a troll on the public forum who, while very skillful at the practice, may lack the self-awareness to recognize their behavior as such. Whether one consciously trolls or not, preventive measures are the same. Don't feed them. Ignore them. Ignore any trollish behavior completely. I skimmed the first post of one of our resident (but I suspect unconscious) trolls, then skipped all the rest of that person's posts.   Then I started skipping all the posts that, after a brief skim, appeared to be troll food.   It means I haven't read most of this thread.

Unlike rape, hijacked threads require willing victims, and there is plenty enough responsibility and blame to go around.

Sorry this thread has been hijacked.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 09:19 PM

Woman are not the only rape victims.

Some guys rape sheep, cows and believe it or not they even rape fresh water porpoise in South America.

Then there are human children. The Pope does not apologize for his ministers raping kids but he did say he feels really really bad about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 09:00 PM

In a civilis/zed world, this kinda thing (rape) wouldn't happen. In a civilis/zed world people in the wrong part of town wouldn't get the shit kicked out of them. When rape happens it's a crime. When assault happens it's a crime.

Yes, sometimes the people are stupid. BIG TIME stupid. Stupidity isn't a crime.

Recognizing the world I inhabit, I took the liberty of teaching my daughter about fifteen ways to really physically hurt another person, whether or not they are stupid. She's only used the stuff a few times, but it was there when she needed it. This post-mortem shit doesn't really accomplish anything, imo. Mudcat has had many threads of this nature, and from what I read on this one, it's all been said before.

Some girls/guys dress like hookers. They are stupid. They then go to rougher parts of town. They are stupid. Parents should teach them not to do that. I liken this kind of crap to Jon Benet Ramsey (sp?) who was made to look like a damned doll. Disgusting. Yes, it was her parents' right to dress the kid that way, but ya'd have to be a really stupid parent to drop her off downtown looking that way. When the child swears at the mother, slap the father.

Rules regarding my daughters:

The rules are:

Use your hands on my daughter and you'll lose them after.

You make her cry, I make you cry.

Safe sex is a myth. Anything you try will be hazardous to your health.

Bring her home late, there's no next date.

If you pull into my driveway and honk, you better be dropping off a package because you're sure not picking anything up.

No complaining while you're waiting for her. If you're bored, change my oil.

If your pants hang off your hips, I'll gladly secure them with my staple gun.

Dates must be in crowded public places. You want romance? Read a book.

(OK. They ain't my rules, but Wiki was kind enough to have them where I could get 'em.)

IMO, we do not take enough responsibility for children. I have interrupted men on the street who were bugging girls who, in my opinion were dressed like they were looking for $20 tricks. That's their right. I would not allow my own kids to leave the house like that, but they weren't my kids. Years back I got the shit kicked out of me during a circumstance like that. Such is life. I have only one of those guys left to see, and I hope before I die to be able to do that. That said, rape will never be treated as the horrendous crime it is as long as courts give out jail terms which are a fuckin' joke. The same could be said of assault and many other reprehensible crimes.

Teach your kids well. When you ain't around anymore, they'll be looking out for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:13 PM

we are all in agreement about certain types of rape ake. i am sorry if you think i have become a sheep and joined in on the lizzie bashing. i can assurre you i haven't. her posts on this subject have made me very angry, not upset.

i have tried to make you see how powerless you would feel if it has happened to you. to then have people tell you that in some way it could be your own fault is extremely damaging.

with love as always
jade x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lox
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:11 PM

"Everybody agrees about almost everything on this thread!

Except the form of words....as fuckin' usual. "


could this be from the same poster who wrote



""We're talking about whether or not women who have been raped, should carry some blame for what happened to them."

Well actually we are NOT discussing that at all.

We are discussing whether SOME rape victims should take partial responsibility."




Farcical drivel - as fuckin usual!

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:49 PM

Everybody agrees about almost everything on this thread!

Except the form of words....as fuckin' usual.