BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:42 AM

Whilst I posted the topic to create discussion on a very important subject, I can only apologise if anything that has come from it has opened old wounds or caused upset for some. That was NOT my intention in any way and my jeart goes out to those who have been involved in such horrible crimes against them.

We are only a small group and see how many have actually been attacked. This would suggest it is a far greater crime in numbers than any statistics would show and vastly under-reported.

Cyber hugs to the brave one's who have spoken out. Am sorry if this has hit you. Good luck for the future too :-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:41 AM

Jeddy, nevermind Lizzie...she's just bitter because she has been stranded here for ages....she hopes that someday soon, they will hear her distress beacon, and rescue her...and take her to her home planet.

She is part of Mudcat's "Care in the Community Programme". And I have to tell you there are chunks of her own planet that don't want her back.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:48 AM

I think you are overstating that, LTS. Sorry about your experiences: but one doesn't need to experience every misfortune going to have empathy with those who have suffered them; neither does such a lack disqualify one from expressing a rational opinion as to how they might best be avoided, even tho one might know that such evasive action is never going to be completely foolproof.   

To declare an interest ~ my wife was once screwed against her will while staying overnight without me with some old and, we thought, dear friends in London once. I didn't find out about it till after that friend was dead, so never had the chance to confront him about it. I still feel badly about the whole thing, and so did my wife until the end of her life. But I don't feel that this experience at, as it were, second hand, gives me any more right to express an opinion on this thread than another guy whose wife was never thus taken unwilling advantage of. And so on, right up to those who have had the genuine, full-on misfortune we are discussing.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:48 AM

And before you ask, yes... someone I knew, someone I trusted, I was fully and conservatively clothed, stone cold sober, it was broad daylight and an open, residential area in a pleasant English village.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:26 AM

Lizzie - " but chances are it'll happen to you less if you have self respect, don't put yourself into crazy situations, and are very much 'street aware'"   

Complete, total and utter bollocks.

You ever been raped?

Don't pontificate unless you have the experience to back it up.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:29 AM

Juneau's Buddy Tabor wrote a line in his song 'Meadowlark' that wrenches my heart:

'Innocence taken at the point of a knife
Child alone in a tearful night'

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Janie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:22 AM

Although I don't know that Ake and the village idiot realize that is what they are saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Janie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:14 AM

Thank you, Bert, for cutting right to the chase, and being spot on when you do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bert
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:01 AM

...That person is responsible for their own safety...

What you are really saying is that it is OK to assault that person because they are being stupid. Just remember that the next time you do something stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Janie
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 11:39 PM

Not several, Sins - many. If one were to do a survey on just this small forum of women who have been raped, assaulted, and/or who were sexually abused as children, I think all of us would be astonished, myself included, and I would probably predict a higher percentage than most. ( I also think if one were to do a survey of men on this forum who experienced sexual abuse as children, we would all be astonished at the numbers.)

Not saying only incest, saying sexual abuse, which includes inappropriate touching or invitations to touch, or watching an adult or older child (teen) masturbate, etc. Some here are incest survivors. Many more encountered a neighbor, uncle, aunt, trusted family friend, older brother on drugs, or a friend of an older brother or sister - maybe just once-maybe a "near miss" physically but a bulls-eye psychologically, or maybe on-going over years-made possible because of the real vulnerabilities, physically, culturally, and psychologically, due to differences in power and/or authority.

That it why it is so important to reinforce that No means No where authority over the body is concerned.   

Rape is a crime of power and control, whether it is about physical power and control or psychological power and control. Childhood abuse, be it sexual, physical or psychological, is about the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Janie
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 10:52 PM

Ake, I did not mistake your meaning at all.   Your analogy still does not hold. I do not consider that men are like drivers in a vehicle unable to stop fast enough to avoid hitting the person who steps blindfolded into traffic.    Thing is, the driver in that instance, is very likely to have to deal with irrational self-blame. The driver is responsible for driving responsibly, but it is never possible, no matter how responsible one is, to eliminate all risk.   No one drives completely responsibly. We are not robots. We can not do perfect risk assessments of every situation. To get into a vehicle, whether as driver or as passenger, is to take risks.



There is a world of difference between blame and responsibility, but it is a difference that many, if not most, people do not get. I spend a lot of time in therapy sessions on working with people to get them to the place they can make the distinction. I mostly work with people who have experienced significant trauma, mostly with men and women who were physically and/or sexually abused as children, but also with people who have experienced adult trauma, mostly domestic violence, assault, rape, or bad vehicle accidents. Some of these people are also abusive in their adult relationships or with their own children.




I think the results reported in the survey mp posted about and linked to reflect 1. the difficulty people have sorting out the difference between blame and responsibility, 2. complex psychological defenses, and psychosocial defenses deployed by victims and those vulnerable to victimization, and by aggressors and those with enough power to be the aggressor (physical, psychological or social) which result in a collusion (spelling?) to maintain a power structure.

Anybody ever read "The Color Purple"?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:44 PM

i should point out that aterwards, i was terrified. it was ages until i saw him again. i called his name, he looked round and we locked eyes and i wasn't afraid.
still messed up though, so i went to another city and there met my true love. it hasn't always been plain sailing, but worth every heartache to get here.

some people aren't as lucky as i have been and my heart goes out to them.
take care all
love
jade x x x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:39 PM

well said sinsull!! you have nothing to be ashamed of hunny. be brave, and try to thnk if anything posotive has come out of it.
take care.
hugs
jade x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:29 PM

Jeddy makes an excellent point.
There are a number of women here on Mudcat who have been raped, some quite violently. None that I know of were dressed provocatively; none were impaired by alcohol or in a place where they should not have been.
True to statistics, most were attacked by someone they knew but at least two by total strangers.
The statistics and research show that rape is a crime of power not lust. The rapist is not "attracted" to his victim. He wants to exert power over her.
Read a paper once in a while - middle-aged and elderly women are targeted. Young mothers in the sight of their children are targeted. Most women are raped by aomeone they know - more often than not a spouse or significant other.
Nuns have been raped in their convent.
Most rapes go unreported - as much as 59% in the US although I don't know how they figure that.
As a rape victim, I am appalled at some of the comments made here. I pray that you never have to endure the pain and humiliation as well as the years of nightmares and fear that a violent rape produces. The man who raped me also molested several little boys before he started stalking women. I was not his first. I was the only one who fought to have the case heard. He was found guilty of robbery and imprisoned for three months because he had stolen my purse at gunpoint. Without a third party to confirm the rape, it could not be presented in court - NYC law at the time.
By the way, I was two houses from my home. I was wearing a pea coat and slacks - loose fitting. It was snowing heavily so I was wrapped in a wool scarf, gloves, boots - very suggestive costume - and carrying an assortment of shopping bags. I guess I deserve what I got.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 08:00 PM

thanks amergin..PMSL!!!

take care x x x x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Amergin
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:57 PM

Jeddy, nevermind Lizzie...she's just bitter because she has been stranded here for ages....she hopes that someday soon, they will hear her distress beacon, and rescue her...and take her to her home planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:51 PM

Mousethief... I rather think that's way too broad a generalization. It's a serious comment, and way too applicable, but many things enter into all human actions.
The temptation to over-simplify should be watched.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:43 PM

**Humans are the only animals who know how to rationalize**

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:43 PM

Yes, you can still get raped by men, but your chances of it are reduced hugely if you ain't out there in 'Hookers R Us' clothes.

That's already been disproven. What a woman wears has all but nothing to do with her chances of being raped because it's NOT ABOUT BEING SEXY. It's about POWER.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:36 PM

"I find it astounding to attack the victim by saying it is her fault "
A number of priests who persistently and systematically raped children in their care in Ireland have blamed their victims for putting temptation in their way.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:33 PM

ok lizzie you want FACTS?
FACT 1 i am gay!
FACT 2 he KNEW that!
FACT 3 i was wearing normal jeans and a t shirt.
FACT 4 i had known him for a while and had mutual friends.
FACT 5 when i got into bed with him, to sleep might i add, i was wearing knickers and bra and t shirt.

in what way was i dressing like a slut?
in what way, apart from trusting the wrong person, was i asking for it?
before you say anything else, i have slept with men before and since that happened and they have been decent men.

i am not ashamed of anything i post here, it is not my crime to be ashamed of!

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Amergin
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:32 PM

Oh, and Lizzie, your self righteous pap is sickening.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Amergin
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:29 PM

The US military is big on blaming the victim. they still consider it as a boys club. I know some one who was in, and was raped by this guy. She was then told that if she pursued it, they will charge her with adultery as he happened to be married.

Sound vaguely familiar?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:27 PM

The understanding of the word 'No' is JUST as important as the understanding of the words 'Personal Responsibility'.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:26 PM

Janie... I don't think you understand my meaning.

I wasn't talking about someone stumbling out on to the motorway. I was referring to someone, who knowing the risks, walks out either drunk or with their eyes shut. That person is responsible for their own safety.

Any person who gets drunk and into the house/bed of a stranger is likewise responsible for their own safety.

Saying that does not excuse the crime of rape, but does illustrate the need for a degree of personal responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:24 PM

"Wasn't it Lizzie who said in a post a long time ago "It costs me a lot of money to look this cheap"?"

Come on, Richard...that was in response to the Facebook BNP person who went on about my hair, make-up etc..and it was a humourous response to a pretty nasty tirade, as WELL you know, you rascal! :0)


"lizzie i am appalled at your reason and logic. how can you be all about freedoms and rights, when the most basic right to respect, you say is tosh?"

Respect yourself first. I am fair fed up with women going around half naked, crude behaviour abounding, drinking themselves under the table and who feel it is there RIGHT to behave however they want. It is not.

If you READ my posts, jade, you'll see that I said there is no excuse for rape, but for any woman to actively put herself into that position is madness.

If you choose to dress like a whore, then you'll be viewed as one. You may not like to hear that, but I'm afraid it's true.

This whole change in women's attitudes and 'rights' came about with the dreaded Girl Power, from which women drew the attitude that they have any right in the world and men have none. It's shit, basically.

My generation was never brought up with that viewpoint..and we knew to look after ourselves, not behave in a sluttish way, not jump into bed with any Tom, Dick or Harry on a first or second date...not to dress like hookers..and not to land up on the pavement unable to get up because of being totally pissed out of our brains.

No, it is no excuse for women to be raped, there is no excuse, but for Gawd's sake girls, get a grip on reality! Stop behaving like spoilt, out of control brats, stick your boobs back inside your tops, wear jeans that actually cover your bums, throw the thongs out the window and start behaving in a far more responsible way.

Yes, you can still get raped by men, but your chances of it are reduced hugely if you ain't out there in 'Hookers R Us' clothes.

Women have rights, but they also have responsibilites, as do men...and it's way past time to put away the Girl Power and start using the Grown Up, Responsible Woman Power instead, that sends the right message out to the right men, instead of the wrong message to the wrong men.

Rapists are in the minority within the male population, and as I stated above, most men would make sure that any man they caught raping a woman would never be able to do that again, because they're decent human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:22 PM

this seems to be a common fantasy bill.
it is one thing to want to be wanted, to be controlled and dominated BUT this is why couples have codewords! the choice to keep going is always there. i think they might find the reality shockingly different!

jade x x x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:17 PM

That comment from 'sensible member' reminded me of the time...maybe 35 years ago... when I was giving a female acquaintance a ride to a party. We had stopped at her place so she could change clothes, and although I cannot remember how the conversation got onto this subject, she told me (paraphrased) " you know, my fantasy is that some guy will just grab me and throw me down and 'take me'...."

then she stopped...looked at me...and added.. "but not anyone who knows about it ahead of time, of course.."

I just grinned at her.. (I was married at the time, and had no designs on her anyway.... and was sort of complimented that she'd trust me with the information.)

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,lillyruben
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:11 PM

you know in this day and age do people not understand the word NO or are we still in the dark ages, we will be in the dark ages soon anyway as we have nearly paralyzed the earth never mind paralyzed certain peoples minute brains

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:05 PM

"No means No. Rape is rape"

Absolutely.... this needs to be said to both boys & girls at about age 13, and repeated every 6 months for the next 30-40 years. A woman...or girl... is entitled to change her mind..at any point!, but she ought to be aware that there will be men who simply will not respect that rule/law.
We, as a species, are only a few thousand years out of a situation where it was understood that men fought each other for mates, and women accepted the situation....(well, we don't 'know' how many resisted.)

It is illegal to run red lights too, but it is done every day, and it is foolish to head into an intersection without looking to see if any stupid, selfish lawbreakers are coming!

   There is a huge difference between suggesting that rapists have any 'excuse' and noting that women need to exercise judgment about where they go, how they dress and who they associate with. It is just sensible to be aware that some men will not be rational and will not respect the law, changes of mind or common sense. Those millions of years of hormones and urges are still operating, and many men WANT to believe that 'the law shouldn't apply in cases of temptation'. That is why that the law needs to be made crystal-clear to every boy at puberty, and repeated every....ummm... 30 minutes? for the next few decades.
Women are NOT responsible for rape, but they need to be aware that accusations of rape if they have been totally careless will not be viewed well by some judges or juries. That's the way it is!


I don't know if humans... male AND female.. will ever resolve this relic from our evolutionary heritage. All we can really do is make laws, and EDUCATE about those laws, and do what we can to resolve the built in contradictions between the urge to respond TO the opposite sex and the need to have rules about how those urges should be expressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Member being sensible
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:04 PM

LEJ made the comment 'No Women wants to be raped' - I would argue that point , having (some years ago) finally got a lass I really fancied ino bed ! My Ardour was Forcibly quenched when she said "Rape Me ! Rape Me!"
I kid you not , that is a SERIOUS put off !
And no , I didnt

---

This post had been deleted, but I re-instated it once he contacted me and I understood why he'd posted as a guest. -JC

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:43 PM

Pointinga finger at the victim only gives credence to the rapist and almost makes sure women (or men) will not come forward only to get rapedagain by the legal system and society

Very true. If anything is ever going to be done about rape it will only be when its victims feel safe about how they will be treated by the police and courts and media. Bullsh** like the article referred to by the opening post of this thread, and some of the bullsh** that has been sprayed along the way, only makes it harder for rapists to be brought to justice. You might as well be paying bribes directly to the judges to look the other way; that's the effect you're having in the real world. Thanks a fucking heap. You know who you are.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:33 PM

Many women too, lest we forget, are raped by invading armies. I guess they are 'asking for it' because they happen to live in a warzone.

Forget the clothing issue... forget the alcohol...

There are many reasons rapists rape but most is to do with sheer power and control. Pointinga finger at the victim only gives credence to the rapist and almost makes sure women (or men) will not come forward only to get rapedagain by the legal system and society

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Royston
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:26 PM

SINSULL: "Royston,
The child appeared on a TV documentary (BBC?) about a school for Somali rape victims and girls rescued from the sex trade. Justice is handed out by Islamic militant tribunals. They are called courts.
SINS"

Thanks for clarifying, I just wanted to be sure that we were talking about the acts of small gangs of stateless murdering gangsters, rather than any recognised or accepted government institution or other social/religious structure.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:24 PM

From Utah State University Sexual Assault and Anti Violence Information

Myth: Rape victims provoke the attach by wearing provocative clothing -

"A Federal Commission on Crime of Violence Study found that only 4.4% of all reported rapes involved provocative behavior on the part of the victim. -
Most convicted rapists do not remember what their victims were wearing. -
Victims range in age from days old to those in their nineties, hardly provocative dressers."

From research in Arizona -

"Like domestic violence, rape is a crime of power and control. Myths that rape only happens to young, beautiful women wearing provocative clothing perpetuate the idea that rape is a crime of passion, when in fact all women are vulnerable to rape, regardless of age, race, class, education or physical appearance."

Following an Amnesty International national survey in the UK

Spokeswoman Kate Allen said: "The poll shows a shocking proportion of the public blame women for being raped. The Government must launch a new drive to counteract this sexist culture."
The poll highlights public ignorance of the problem as well as the dreadfully low conviction rates"

From Prevention Pathways

"Most sexual assault victims are wearing regular clothes like blue jeans or pajamas when they are assaulted, not provocative clothing"

There is much more of this ......

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:20 PM

ok, i have been avoiding mudcat lately and even when i came back i stayed above the line, and some of the opinions on this thread has shown me i was wise to stay away.

however, this is a subject very close to my heart.

HOW DARE anyone say that rapists have an excuse!!!!!

what does it matter where you are, what you are wearing or not.
what should it matter if you are married?

if there was a woman in the street naked, saying come on then and decided to change her mind, she should be able to do so, without fear.

no one has the right to make you do something that you don't want to do. it should be safe to do, go and dress anyway you want to.

lizzie i am appalled at your reason and logic. how can you be all about freedoms and rights, when the most basic right to respect, you say is tosh?

ake, ok, to explain to am man, (sorry to be patronising). imagine you have left your curtains open and a bit of expansive jewelry on your bed. someone breaks in, not only stealing what is yours but trashes your house and pisses all over your bed as well. not only are you outraged and scared but feel violated as nothing else could make you feel.
you tell your friends whats happened and all you get is a smile and told well you shouldn't have left it out in view.
in priniple, you should be able to have anything in your house and it be safe and secure, no one should have the right to enter your house without you inviting them. if they behave inapropriatly, you have the right to change your mind and throw them out again.

rape is no different, apart from it is to do with a persons body.
it is the attitude of the purportrators that is different of course, from hearing stories, it is the control they desire. provoking fear is all part of the 'buzz'.

i will leave you all to think and give myself time to calm down.

take care all
jade x x

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:14 PM

"Also the statistics link up provocative dress with self-esteem? How exactly is self-esteem measured? Provocativeness of dress? Just curious."

Interesting question mousethief because I would suspect that by some women wearing some of the clothes they do it actually increases their own self-esteem. Some it's power dressing. Some it's fashion' Some is just who they are. Some have oodles of confidence, some it gives confidence. No-one has a right to decry them for it in my opinion (and I know you are not)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:13 PM

"Rape is a violent crime. It just happens to have the sex act as the vehicle."

Spot on.

"Statistics say that most victims know the rapist. Which would suggest that dress has little to do with it."

Again - spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:11 PM

LonesomeEJ... it was me who posted ""I stay away from the term provocative clothing as I cannot define what that is.""

By that I meant I do not seeing clothing in that way. I suspect what many would provocative would rely on a great many factors. Their moral stance, their judging, their holier than though position: all variables that shift the line of what some would call okay and others risque. Likewise. What is 'normal clothing'? Who sets the line?

Of course we know when we see it for ourselves but it is different for most. Even so, no matter what someone wears, should not render them open to rape. In short I do not have a persoanl definition for provocative clothing as I think all is fair if the person wearing it is happy.

If I were to invoke judgements on some clothes it would not start with skimpy tops and mainiskirts. There are soem fashion nightmares out there but.. who am I to judge? I am hardly Mona Lisa so it gives me no right to criticise

Hope this explains what I meant.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:10 PM

Sorry, but women never used to behave like this years back, and we never got treated that way by men, as in sex being almost expected on a first date, because most people got to know each other first.

What planet was this? Whose history is this?

And as an aside, I might be out of date here, but as far as I recollect there is no such crime as male on male "rape". Assault, buggery, maybe, but "rape" as far as I recall (and I am talking legal definition, not socio-speak) is a male on female crime.

Rape is a violent crime. It just happens to have the sex act as the vehicle. It is also one of opportunity. The rapist sees the opportunity and takes it. The over-wrought husband or boyfriend who can't take "no" if the partner changes his or her mind (for whatever reason) becomes a rapist if force is applied. The dissapointed partner is entitled to be pissed off, is entitled to call quits to such a relationship if he thinks he was being toyed with, but he isn't entitled to force his way. You can substitute "she" and "her" in the aggressor mode, but it makes for sloppy writing to try to include all options all of the way through that paragraph.

Who knows what goes on in the head of a rapist, but the victims aren't just drunk attractive young women in miniskirts. If everyone adopted a policy of keeping an eye out on where they are and not leaving themselves open to be preyed upon, there would be fewer, but it wouldn't go away.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bert
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:08 PM

Statistics say that most victims know the rapist. Which would suggest that dress has little to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:02 PM

Also the statistics link up provocative dress with self-esteem? How exactly is self-esteem measured? Provocativeness of dress? Just curious.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:02 PM

Katlaughing, I think we are still hung up on a couple of things.
1)No woman wants rape, no matter how they dress
2)Some women dress in a way that suggests general promiscuity ("Spank me...I'm bad!" on the t shirt)..and we all recognize the styles.
3)Some men rape women whether they dress promiscuously or not. Whether they are considered objectively attractive or not.
4)Certain behaviors(Dressing promiscuously, getting into bed with a man) are extremely risky when combined with other situations (too much to drink at a frat party where some men have also had too much to drink, hitchhiking)
My argument was with the statement about "I don't know what promiscuous attire is".

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:57 PM

"Yes, women from all walks of life can get raped, but chances are it'll happen to you less if you have self respect"

So are there statistics to support the idea that most women who get raped were dressed provocatively?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:55 PM

oh Lizzie I see women every week I am out that I worry about. Drunk, half naked and possibly at risk on the streets walking home. BUT... they should still be safe totally. No matter how drunk or half dressed they are, no-one has the right to rape them. There does have to be a change. Men need to stop raping women and vice versa.

I fear for young women all the time. But I stand by their right to dress how they wish. They do not have a right to act and behave badly, swear and use foul language in public. No-one does. But they do have a right to be safe from harm. We (men and women) all should have that right.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:49 PM

a sensitive and thought -provoking post, Kat, and I feel for you.

please forgive me, however, if I take Dr Helen Smith with just the tiniest grain of salt.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:44 PM

Wasn't it Lizzie who said in a post a long time ago "It costs me a lot of money to look this cheap"?


I am sure that it is not all that rare (outside an existing relationship) for a woman to agree to get into a man's bed (and maybe the other way round) and to be content to cuddle or to indulge in minor sexual activity but to draw the line at some point.

Most men will feel somewhat aggrieved at that point (in contract law and constitutional law the concept or "reasonable expectation" has relevance) but most will not then proceed to obtain by force that which has been withheld. Nor should they, but the woman can in due course expect to be persona non grata.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:44 PM

It has been my experience that often, when women round on other women and become so judgemental about them, there is often a jealousy going on somewhere because the 'freer' women are more expressive, or attractive, or something about them that the other women envy.

No women would envy being raped but to stop women dressing as they like is a crime in itself. To be upset because someone looks better than you, has more youth, energy, panache, is absurd. Men dress how they like and seldom is a word charged at them. Builders bum, beer bellies, moobs, socks with open toed sandals... (No! not all men of course. I am just illustrating the point).

If a woman is trying to make herself look attarctive, the way SHE wants to look attractive, not someone elses idea, then go for it. If she is more attractive than me (not a hard task) then good luck to her. There is no power in acting the way you think people want you to be.

I wonder what the pensioner was wearing who got raped in her care home last year? How much dignity and self respect would she have had? Or the children who get raped and murdered on their way home from school... Which is why I personally hate this 'schoolgirl party fashion' thing.

Women and men who get rape need help and understanding: not blame

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:39 PM

This sounds like the same old women-hating-each-other in the competition to gain a man - the Bachelor comes to mind with the demeaning crap several women go through to be "the one" he chooses. I know we've come some ways from those days, but with this survey it sound as though society is taking a step back, maybe several.

I dressed in an ordinary fashion with plenty of self-respect when an ex-boyfriend came to my home, forced his way in and raped me.

I hear what you mean LeeJ, I used to get after my oldest daughter in her mid-teens because of the way she dressed. But by putting it off on how the woman dresses, it reminds me of the reasons women in Afghanistan and other mid-Eastern countries are made to cover every inch of their body with heavy drapes AND are not supposed to let their feet make any sound as they walk. It is, according to the ones in charge, too much for the men to handle. They don't put it that way, but that's what they are saying...if a woman shows her ankle, arm, any shape of a body, she is inciting the men who have no control over their "urges" i.e. she's asking for it.

Not in my book, though I loath some of what I see for supposed "fashion" these days.

Here's one or two explanations from men who feel they were raped by women..

NO DOES mean NO!

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:34 PM

mp, there is no excuse for rape, but there is no excuse for arrogance either, and women who deliberately behave and/or dress provocatively, then whinge if things don't go the way they expected, really have to take a large chunk of responsibility for putting themselves in that position in the first place.

Yes, women from all walks of life can get raped, but chances are it'll happen to you less if you have self respect, don't put yourself into crazy situations, and are very much 'street aware'

It worries the shite out of me the way so many women dress and behave these days.

Yeah, I know, I'm gettin' old, but seriously, something needs to change.