What is a Folk Song?

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 10:31 PM

Sure.

Art ;-)

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Steve B
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 06:06 PM

Just out of curiousity.....how about a song by Norman Blake, say Green Light on the Southern or Church Street Blues?

By a strict definition....these are not folk songs....but most would call them folk.

I do understand that they would not be traditional folk songs.

Are they just southern songs?

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 04:06 PM

I am put in mind of electricity. We wish to generate light but succeed mostly in generating heat.

About two years ago on another similar thread) I did get as far as posting the definition of folk music adopted by the (Oh! Heck, can I remember it?) World FOlk music congress in (maybe) 1954 and now I can't find it. THe problem seems to be that there are a lot of people who think that applying the definition and deciding that a song is not folk is somehow to denigrate the song. THis is not the case. A song is no more or less worthy simply because it is a folk song. But that is no reason to refuse to understand wht a folk song is.

The problem of shifting meaning is not limited to folk song. Many people believe, today, that a work means what most people think it means (so "infer" and "imply" are confused, and "refute" is used to mean "reject" not even "rebut"). Likewise grammar is assumed to be correct if in common use. Those of us who disagree are described (with, I think, pejorative intent) as "prescriptive".

I do not agree with this tendency. Surely it is important to be able to be sure of meaning - but to remeber that this need not limit what can be sung, heard, or enjoyed.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Steve B
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 03:46 PM

Hmmm....interesting thread.

I play "old-time" music on fiddle with clawhammer player, and consider that "folk music", and I'm fascinated by the way the old-timers used to play it in old recordings, but if you read old interviews of them, they often made up their own styles around tunes that had been passed to them, or many tunes that have bled into the fiddle tune list are not that old really, even if they sound that way. Or "old" Appalachian gospel songs, etc.

I also am a singer songwriter type...who plays an acoustic guitar, but when I'm wearing that hat I say I play "acoustic pop" or "singer songwriter", I would not sell myself at that point as a "folk artist".

I do call myself a "folk" performer when playing in my string band or my old-time clawhammer/fiddle combo.

You could more narrowly define "traditional folk" perhaps, and should, but just plain "folk" is always going to have a mushy, generic kind of definition to a broader audience.

It's such a mix too....I'm thinking of Joel Mabus, who writes his own excellent songs, but yet plays "traditional" numbers with great care and skill along with his own material.

But it is *really* too bad that "traditional folk" and old-time music are vanishing from "folk" venues in place of jazz-influenced singer songwriter types. I don't dislike such stuff, but I really love old string bands like the Fuzzy Mountain String band and such and I know there are tons of good groups out there that play such music and they rarely get booked anymore it seems in favor of the more pop/jazz-oriented singer songwriter types.

My .02 cents

Steve B

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 01:47 PM

Art- I'll repeat what I've said before on this topic. "Folk" is not synonymous with "Good". Their are many bad folk songs and (not as) many good singer/songwriter productions. This, however, doesn't make the good S/S stuff "folk" nor remove the bad folk songs from the folk category.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 12:55 PM

But only when the shoe fits, Art.

Despite your disclaimer, your artfully-composed statement does seem to suggest that you consider the present to be the region of scum, and the past to be the region where treasures are to be found. We just disagree, that's all. For myself, I consider today's living traditions -- whether of long standing or comparatively recent origin -- to be just as valid as the traditions of the past. I feel that treasures are still being created today, and that there was quite a bit of scum created in the past; no particular era is inherently superior, in my view.

Those of us who are not practitioners of a particular scholastic discipline are not bound by that discipline's conventions with respect to language. The fact that you consider the words "folk" and "traditional" to be rigidly defined does not mean that the rest of us are bound by your interpretation. My doctor may refer to a myocardial infarction, which I would more likely call a heart attack -- and while his term is more precise, as a practical matter we're both right. There are countless disciplines out there that adopt very precise definitions that are only useful among people who work within those disciplines, while the rest of the world speaks about the same topics in more general terms. This forum serves a broad constituency, as far as I can tell, and broader definitions tend to go along with that.

Thanks for humoring me, though, even if this ground had been covered many times. I value your insights even when I disagree with them.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 11:40 AM

I must differ---(so what else is new): The term "traditional folksong" is and refers to a very definitely defined and specific scholastic discipline that contains many types of evolved musics and songs from around the world.

As I've said here in many past discussions, (and where one must go to see how much I generally agree with John P) one must sweep the scum of the present off the top of the pond in order to more easily gaze down into the depths of history where these treasures are found.

I am not calling all singer-songwriter crations scum, but when the shoe fits...

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 09:06 AM

That was intended as a response to John Peekstock, by the way -- not John Hill.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 09:02 AM

John, I follow what you're saying. When all is said and done, "folk" and "traditional" are simply not very precise terms. I'm happy with that, because I don't rely on these terms to convey anything too specific. I think that those who would try to make these terms precise after-the-fact are being unnecessarily exclusionary. This can cause a certain amount of chagrin on the part of those of us who feel that we should be recognized as participants in a folk tradition -- because of our status as singer-songwriters, not in spite of it.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 08:58 AM

Sorry I digressed a bit from the main topic... trouble is I seem to agree with nearly everyone on both sides of the discussion.. One thing I've learned from the Mudcat is the old addage about "Lord help me to keep my mouth shut until I know what I'm talking about"

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 08:51 AM

I once heard Peggy Seegar being interviewed on the (BBC) radio. She said that she once phoned Ewan McColl in 1952 and said she needed a new song to perform that evening. He wrote a song while they were talking on the phone and she wrote down the words and performed it that night. The song was "The first time ever I saw your face"
Ewan McColl's real name of course was James Miller.. does anyone know how he was called at home?... when did he become "Ewan McColl"?

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: John P
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 08:29 AM

Whistle Stop,
I never said I didn't like singer-songwriters -- I just said I don't think most of that music is the same genre as folk music, or traditional folk if that is what we must call it now. Musically and lyrically it is mostly pop music or country music. I like a lot of it, but I don't usually call it folk.

I agree that the modern singer-songwriter tradition in some ways grew out of a genuine folk process. The same is even more true of rock music and especially rap. For the purposes of discussing genres of music this still doesn't make them traditional folk music. It is also traditional that electric blues is played on a Strat. It is traditional that a string quartet consists of two violins, a viola, and a cello. There are lots of traditions floating around, and lots traditional processes. In order to come up with a definition of traditional folk music that works for me, I've had to separate out the traditions from the music. That was the point I was trying to make -- melodically and lyrically, it sounds different. That's where I draw the lines for myself. The whole folk process thing of polishing the melodies and words by having them pass through many sets of hands creates specific types of melodies and words. The process itself, and the historicity of the tradition, can be separated from the actual physical characteristics of the music.

I'm not really concerned about tradtitions. I don't much pay attention to them when playing traditional folk music. Oh, I find it interesting to know about where a song came from, and why. I am fascinated by being able to trace different versions of a song across the centuries and continents. It gives me something to talk to the audience about during song introductions. But I try to avoid allowing the way that someone in the past in some other place played a song have any affect on how I play it. I play traditional music but am not a traditionalist.

Perhaps this is why Folk Roots magazine started using the the term "roots music" instead of "traditional music". And this is one of the reasons why I dislike having singer-songwriters included in the definition of folk music. If I say "folk" everyone thinks Joni Mitchell, Greg Brown, ani defranco, Bob Dylan, etc. -- that word is meaningless as a description of a genre of music these days. If I say "traditional folk" everyone hears the word "traditional" and thinks that implies lots of things about where, how, why, and on what instruments the music gets played. That word carries a lot of freight that doesn't have anything to do with the melody or the words of the song.

A few words on cross-genre music making: I could conceive of a rap band doing a traditional folk song. I think it would remain a traditional folk song. Steeleye Span plays traditional folk music. The dreaded classical soprano singing a traditional folk song all wrong doesn't stop that song -- melodically and lyrically -- from being a traditional folk song. I've been fooling around with an arrangement of the beginning of Beethoven's 6th symphony for acoustic guitar, fiddle, djembe, and didgerdu. This ruination of a perfectly good symphony isn't going to stop it from being classical music. And if throw a Beatles song into a set of traditional British ballads, it is still going to be a 60s pop song.

I hope some of this makes sense. It's 5:00 in the morning . . .

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 08:28 AM

Charlie, your definition of "singer-songwriter stuff" is much narrower than mine. Mine includes the personal as well as the universal, the subjective as well as the objective, and definitely is not limited to 1-4-5 progressions.

That's the problem with definitions, though -- they all rely on other words, which we may also define differently, so the potential for misunderstanding grows exponentially. But I continue to view the "singer-songwriter" genre as something that grew primarily from a folk tradition, and integrates influences from a number of other folk traditions.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 03:29 AM

Thank You John! I appreciate your points as they are so well founded in/with logical historical evidence. You've been doing your homework, and I think you enjoyed every minute of it!

I will hasten to point out here, that folk music does not live in a vacuum. Music must appeal to the cultural tastes of the audiences of the day. Picture a Steleye Span-esque fusion of trad and rap.

I would also like to point out that the consumer culture we live in carries it's own latent cynicism, which implies that people are always looking for alternatives to the mainstream. I would also say that the mainstream media is not taken all that seriously, ie, it has become a medium that invites put-downs and is a distraction mechanism fostering negative attention.

This is where folk music strolls by with it's honesty and sauntering simplicity. Also, trad makes the scene with the stark and awesome beauty of hours and centuries of honing.

I think I'm going to have to say here that it is also true that trad and folk are related, but not the same... am I right?

ttr

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From:
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 11:35 PM

If I may, I would like to toss in an opinion which I've been wrestling with for some time. I don't think instruments matter at all unless we want to distinguish "traditional folk" from "folk" itself. Seems to me that more important with age is the question of outlook. What you are calling "singer-songwriter" stuff, if I understand you right, deals with transient emotions, almost always love or lust, depending on your personal definition of the two. It's therefore subjective. It caters to the young because the young feel such things very strongly. It's all about how "I feel." Folk music is for working class adults who have to put food on the table and worry about larger things. Folk music describes the world out there; it's objective. It's not always pleasant, and does not always end happily, but it's real, and hands down lessons to those of the next generation who listen to it and are socialized by it. It's also more demanding musically, because it isn't all different combinations of 1-4-5 chord progressions.

Thanks; I'll be still now.

Chicken Charlie

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 11:34 PM

There can be any number folk/traditional elements in a performance, a song, or a composition-it doesn't have to be all folkloric to count. A new pop song may use a very old and much used melody--A hip-hop tune can use a line or phrase from traditional ballads(and they often do)--The singer/songwriter may write his own words and melodies, but the subject may be traditional, a narrative about an unfaithful love, for instance--

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 11:21 AM

John, you make some very good points, but they seem to contradict your opening premise -- that singer/songwriter music (however you're choosing to define that) is antithetical to folk music. I agree with you that "traditions" (another loosely-defined term) can arise in a relatively short period of time, as has happened with citterns in Irish music. I think this is particularly true in the modern era, when the pace of everything has been speeded up. But if that's the case, why should we exclude the singer/songwriter "tradition," which extends back through Dylan to Woody Guthrie, Blind Blake, Robert Johnson, etc.?

You may mean that you just don't care for the image of the "singer-songwriter" that you carry in your head; young, angst-ridden post-adolescents who try to appear deeper than they really are while singing obscure and unmemorable self-penned tunes. I might agree with you about that, but I don't think that the whole genre should be excluded from the definition based on personal preferences and stereotypes.

Much of the singer-songwriter genre arose out of a true folk process involving musicians learning from each other, stealing from each other, altering words and melodies to suit their personal vision, whether or not there was a commercial component or incentive. I am part of that tradition, and I don't see a marked difference between it and similar processes that might have arisen in different times and locations (18th-20th century Appalichia, early 20th century Mississippi delta, etc.) that are more generally recognized to be part of the "folk" universe.

It's an old debate on this forum, and I'm anticipating groans as I write this. But for all that has been said on this topic, I have yet to hear a persuasive argument (IMHO) against what I'm suggesting.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: John P
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 09:47 AM

I can't, for the life of me, see any similarities between most singer-songwriter music and folk music. They seem like almost complete opposites to me. Why are they usually discussed in the same forums and performed on the same stages? I have noticed that if you give a singer-songwriter a budget you get a pop band or a country band doing pop songs or country songs. If you give a traditional folk musician a budget, you may get a rock sound, but you still have a traditional folk song. Why is Jethro Tull playing an acoustic song not considered folk music? In what way is Soundgarden Unplugged different than any other singer-songwriter's band?

I agree that we need definitions in order to have intelligent discussions. Without lines (big, wide grey lines) dividing genres, we have no basis for disucussion. Why not just have a general Music Forum where we could all argue about whether or not any particular sound is music. I, too, am tired of hearing about the damn horse. By that definition, classical, rock, Broadway, pop, country, and punk are all folk music. Dumb.

I've come to define folk music from a musical standpoint, rather than a historical, traditional, or process oriented viewpoint. By this I mean that traditional folk music from western Europe and America has a certain melodic sound that is generally not found in newly composed music, unless the music is composed by someone who is firmly rooted in some tradition. I don't mean that all these traditions sound alike. But traditional melodies get worked over by so many people that one can, after a while, usually tell whether or not a song is traditional. The same is true of the lyrics. I have no problem calling a newly composed song traditional if it sounds traditional. That will almost always mean that it was written by a person who is part of the tradition and who is writing from that musical standpoint. If it fits in musically and lyrically with the other songs in that tradition, and if the other musicians in that tradition play the song, what does it matter when it was written.

I am also not particularly concerned about where or for what purpose a song or tune is played. I have heard a lot of people say that traditional folk music is not music that is arranged and performed, but rather is played in less formal situations. That would mean that if I am sitting around the house playing music with my friends, I am playing traditinal folk music, but if I take the same song on stage with an arrangement I am no longer playing traditional music. This strikes me a bit silly. It may be speaking to a definition of tradition, but not to a definition of music. And what about dances? Surely playing for dancers is about as traditional an activity as we can find. But I sometimes get paid for playing at dances -- am I partly traditional and partly not?

I'm also not worried about what instruments get used for folk music. As I said earlier, you may get a rock sound but you still have a traditional folk song. What difference does it make to the melody or the words if different instruments are used? The melody and words remain the same. How would we ever decide which instruments are appropriate and which are not? I play the cittern, which is firmly rooted in Irish traditional music, and has been for all of 30 years or so. People have been using electric guitars for traditinal music for just as long. Traditional folk music is a living, breathing thing. Its players are always going to pick up the current instruments of the day.

I don't think that any of the traditions were started by people to said, "Hmm . . . I think I'll start a musical tradition today." I suspect that they were just folks playing the music they heard and liked on whatever instruments came to hand. I have always thought that learning everything there is to know about a musical tradition and then trying to make your playing conform to your learning is an essentially scholarly and academic approach to traditional music -- which is in its essence non-scholarly. As such it is as much an antithesis of traditonal folk music as singer-songwriters are. Perhaps a kid playing old tunes he found in a book on a synthesizer is more traditional than an American urbanite who can talk about and play the styles of every famous Irish fiddler. If traditional music is local music, why should we play music from some other locale?

Someone said earlier that mixing and matching traditions is harmful to traditional folk music, and tended to homogenize the things that make folk music interesting. I agree to a point, but where do you think cajun music came from? Or Appalachian? Or blues? Or bluegrass? Musicians in the real world are going to mix and match music that they hear and like, and some of the hybrids are going to take and some are not. In today's world, the music we hear and like can come from all over the world instead of from a couple of counties, so the mixing will be more radical than it was in the past. I don't really think this is going to destroy the individual traditions. There are plenty of traditionalists around. I don't have any problem with world fusion music, although I tend to like the root tradtions better.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Boab
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:51 AM

In our club, anything from "The Cruel Mother" to "Home in Pasadena", employing everybody from the Fureys, Mike Whelan, Ali Bain , the 'Frisco Fire Band, Bab Dixon or Arizona Smoke Review and all the endless list of worthwhile others. In fact Folk songs are just what our local "Marras" lead singer said they were when challenged----they are what folk sing!

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 26 Mar 01 - 11:56 PM

A folksong can be done 'live', without electricity.

A folksong does not need to have lasting value.

A folksong enjoys an honest presentation.

A folksong is interesting, and/or fun.

A folksong often lives a secret life of its own.

A folksong is a mysterious stranger.

A folksong is beautiful!

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 26 Mar 01 - 08:53 PM

I like folksongs,

The rest are just fluff,

If I like it, it is one,

Don't give me no guff.

(Art Thieme)
March 26, 2001

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 26 Mar 01 - 12:41 PM

Toadfrog, your definition is probably as good as any. I don't subscribe to it, however, because of its emphasis on simplicity as an essential element (or THE essential element) of folk songs. I think a lot of great folk songs are actually quite complex -- musically, lyrically, conceptually. So your definition doesn't work for me.

The definition that does work for me (which others are free to embrace or reject), is that the essence of folk music is its ability to exist and evolve without benefit of a larger governmental, corporate or pedagogical infrastructure. By this definition "classical" music (also a misnomer, but we'll leave that for another thread) ceased to be folk music when the pedagogues began dictating the rules, and the composers/performers became increasingly reliant on either private or governmental subsidies, both for the continued production of the music and to ensure that it could continue to be performed. This became increasingly difficult as the music got bigger and more complex (think of the infrastructure that is needed to support Wagnerian opera, for instance). Similarly, I would maintain that rock and roll began as folk music (taking Elvis' Sun Studio recordings as a starting point), but was quickly co-opted by corporate entities that sought to control the creative aspects as a way to ensure that their profits would continue to grow. Jazz began as folk music, but as the rules increased, it gradually drifted away from its folk roots, losing much of its audience in the process. All of these musics have occasionally received "folk infusions" in the years since they departed from their folk roots (the incorporation of folk tunes by Dvorak and Stravinsky, the punk-rock movement of the 1970's, various "world music" additions to jazz), but when these take hold they are often quickly incorporated into the music being made within the larger infrastructure. But I do believe that any of these musics can simultaneously exists in folk and non-folk varieties.

Submitted for your consideration. I know a lot of people have grown tired of these "what is folk?" discussions, but I find them to be among the more meaningful topics discussed on this forum.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: mousethief
Date: 26 Mar 01 - 11:38 AM

Words, words, words.
---Hamlet

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Mar 01 - 05:09 AM

(Not intended as any slight to you, Mr. Red, as you were only discussing attribution; a general observation only!)

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Mar 01 - 07:41 PM

Although I'm puzzled why this thread has suddenly re-emerged after all this time, I must say that Toadfrog's comments are very sensible.  I must also say that anybody who repeats -yet again- that stupid remark about horses and folk music really shouldn't be engaging in any kind of reasoned discussion!

Malcolm

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Mar 01 - 06:11 PM

Cliff 'I never heard a horse sing it ' McGann

Though I am more inclined to believe it of Big Bill Broonzy, the saying has been credited to Louis Armstrong and Fats Waller.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: toadfrog
Date: 25 Mar 01 - 05:04 PM

FOLK MUSIC, WHAT?
My definition

Try this one and see what you think. I'd be very interested to hear responses.
The best approach I ever heard was by Earl Robinson, in or about 1956, who said something like this:
(1) Folk music is music which has been smoothed over time by passing from one individual to another, each making a small contribution, until the music is perfected in ways no individual composer could achieve.
(2) In order for the folk process to work, the people involved must understand the music they perform. They must either be raised in a musical tradition, or must pay careful attention to it and follow it.
(3) Robinson, who composed the "Ballad for Americans," "Sandhog" and "Joe Hill," among other things (and was very proud of it) did not call himself a composer of folk music. He said he had heard changed versions of "Joe Hill," and thought it would evolve into a folk song.
(4) Robinson thought that classical music was great only to the extent it derived from folk roots. He argued, this is why Bartok is a greater composer than Schoenberg. (I'm not sure whether I agree, but it is an interesting point.)
(5) These were political points Robinson was making, as he considered folk music to be the property of the Left.

In the same vein, I heard Bess Hawes say that she had taught a course in singing folk songs. One week, for an exercise, she had all her students choose a well-known singer and imitate him/her as closely as they could. When the class met, no one could tell who it was that anyone was trying to imitate. But ALL the students sang better than they ever had before. In other words, they improved because they had to think about what they were doing.

That being said, I suggest the following, and ask for comment:
(1) Folk songs are SIMPLE songs. Because folk songs do not have a lot of complicated instrumentation, chord progressions, etc. they derive their force from very small things, like small variations in rhythm and vocal inflection. The best folk recording I have ever heard is "Alabama Bound" with Leadbelly and the Golden Gate Quartet. All either a capella or with a single guitar line, but the rhythm and phrasing are perfect.
(2) The best folk music is performed by people who are raised in a tradition and stick to it. Good folk music requires that the performer at least treat the tradition with respect. There are trained opera singers who patronizingly include a few simple folk songs in their repertoire. No matter how magnificent their voices are, they rarely sound good.
(3) The best folk music is moving because of a nuanced combination of words, tune, rhythm, vocal inflection, and instrumentation (if any). A folk singer raised within a tradition may understand these things without needing to think about them. An outsider who wants to sing the songs should think about them very carefully. That is why Leadbelly is better than Odetta, and Odetta is superior to Judy Collins. That is also why Prof. Child was wrong when he said the words of a ballad are more important than the tune. He was wrong because it makes no sense AT ALL to think about the words in isolation from the tune, or even in isolation from the singer's accent and phrasing.
(4) Songs composed by singer-songwriters may be good, but they are not folk music. And the more complex the composition gets, the farther it probably is from anything that could be called folk music.
(4) The idea of creating "fusion" music, or bringing all the traditions together to create something to unite mankind, is wrongheaded. Homogenized music is like Kraft homogenized cheese. The idea of "liberating" music from rules is wrongheaded. Traditional music is good because it is traditional. Traditions are local and have rules.
(5) Although folk songs are associated with the Left, Songs of Protest are not necessarily folk songs. And a bad song does not become a good one because the sentiment is good, or politically correct.JWM

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From:
Date: 31 Jul 97 - 03:32 AM

Folk songs (for me) are:

singable by untrained, but practiced singers with ordinary vocal ranges easily learnable by ear NOT reliant on expert instrumental accompaniment welcoming of attention but NOT demanding attention sound most satisfying in the evening by a fire or in a candlelit room

All that stuff about generations and a hundred years -- phoey! Gilbert and Sullivan is not folk, though our families have handed it down to us. Church music is not folk, though most is learned young, by ear. OTOH, many country music songs ARE folk music...if you strip away all those steel guitars, overbearing drums, or occasionally unnatural vocal affectations. Of course, if their subject matter is banal or badly expressed, they're still BAD folksongs and will quickly be forgotten.

Yes, there is such a thing as a BAD folksong. Most folksongs are bad and are quickly forgotten.

As for dismay that Phil Staines deserves more respect than John Gorka -- I just don't understand why it matters. Let's face it -- concerts are NOT the ideal venue for many traditional songs. Heck, I think of concert going as more of a social thing than a musical thing. When I saw Makem and Clancy, it was to see *them*, not to hear their music. I can hear their music anytime. At home, I can sing along if the mood strikes me, or more often, I can leave them off, pull out my guitar and sing a few of the songs I've learned from them.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Alan of Oz
Date: 23 Jul 97 - 05:00 AM

Well, I suppose I started this discussion for two reasons: to see what would happen and because I have my own point of view.

I have watched what happened with great interest. Thank you all for your thoughts. Now I know the answer!

Actually, as a purist I still think the purest definition is the "wildflower" definition as I stated at the beginning of this thread. As a realist I know we cannot survive if we restrict ourselves to this narrow definition.
Joe, I really like your last paragraph in your posting here. I would say "folk" though, not "traditional folk". You can’t write something new and call it traditional. You CAN write something new which may be folky.
Elsie, I may not see it exactly the way you do but I really value your input. I think you are passionate not grumpy.
To all other contributors, we may not all agree but there have been many good points made here, I think this has become an excellent discussion, far better than I ever envisaged.

My own point of view is that when people hear the words "folk song" an image of what that means will come to mind, each individual having a different image. I would hope that the concept which features largest in that image is that of a traditional folk song (the "wildflower" definition). I believe that if this is the case then folk clubs, festivals (and this forum) will not go far wrong. Although this forum does stray sometimes it seems to me to be reasonably well focussed on this concept.

The problem is, I have been to folk clubs and festivals where it seems to me that the organisers ARE losing sight of this concept. In my small way I am trying to shift the focus back towards traditional folk songs. I am not trying to exclude anything. We can’t. We must allow for creativity. But when I go to a folk club or festival and not hear ANY traditional folk songs I think someone is losing the plot.

Whatever your favourite definition may be PLEASE keep the "wildflower" definition in the back of your mind.

Cheers,
Alan

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Earl
Date: 22 Jul 97 - 07:39 PM

Nick Spitzer's attitude is exactly what is needed. Folk music has always been a form of entertainment but one that includes as much and as many as possible. It's always a process and never a finished product.

American audiences (that's all I can speak for) appreciate quality and are hungry for history (consider how many people watched Ken Burn's Civil War.) However, as we all know, they will settle for mediocrity and hogwash. If people who know music don't convey our musical roots in honest and entertaining ways, Disney will steal it, polish it, package it, and sue us all for copyright infringement.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: LaMarca
Date: 22 Jul 97 - 06:06 PM

Dick, only if he held his hoof up to his ear while he sang it...

I've worked on stage crew for Nick Spitzer's "American Roots on the Mall" 4th of July concert every year, which is a fun mix of a lot of different kinds of what Spitzer calls "Roots" music. He's a rare individual, a PhD Folklorist who actually gets PAID to do folklore, but he has disagreements with other folklorists in the academic world (so what else is new?) over his fairly broad inclusion of different types of music. For the concert, he tries to come up with a balance between acts that will be popular for a large crowd of tourists (and locals) in Washington, DC, that still have some link to a particular community. Over the past years we've had Mariachi bands, Klezmer, Irish (Cherish the Ladies and others), LOTS of Cajun and Zydeco, urban electric blues and even Carl Perkins ("Don't Step On My Blue Suede Shoes) with some of Elvis' original backup band. All of these groups played both traditional and modern numbers FROM their traditional type of music (and yes, rockabilly evolved out of a trad. type of black blues). So, even though there's enough "popular" stuff to please a crowd, Spitzer tries to link it in their minds to community-based traditions, showing that traditional stuff CAN be appealing to an audience. And not a whining singer-songwriter in the whole bunch! I just wish that more booking agents for folk clubs and/or commercial establishments would try the same thing, instead of just booking in the current FastFolk Magazine songwriter-of-the-month. I may be a Purist Snob, but I'm a flexible Purist Snob if it helps make traditional music more available!

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Bert Hansell
Date: 22 Jul 97 - 03:57 PM

An interesting point of view Jon. It brings up the point that things can be traditional to one group but not necessarily to society as a whole.

And talking about football songs, there is a song that is traditional amongst 'West Ham United' Soccer Fans. They sing 'I'm forever blowing bubbles' whenever the game gets slow.

It is traditional in that it has been passed down through a couple of generations of fans but it is certainly not a 'traditional' song by most definitions.

So there is a lot of overlap when it comes to defining 'folk' and 'traditional' songs.

Hey!, perhaps we should start singing 'I'm forever blowing bubbles' whenever our arguments get too obscure ;-)

Bert.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Earl
Date: 22 Jul 97 - 03:35 PM

I think in a forum like this, though we may not be able to come up with a universal definition of folk music, we all pretty much know what we mean. We may argue vehemently about where to put the fences but we all know what we want to fence in.

The bigger problem, though, is that the general public doesn't have a clue. In Boston there are quite a few "folk" shows on the radio but the music is about 98% singer/songwriter. I think that this is how folk music is perceived in the 90's: serious political or excruciatingly personal songs which are instantly forgetable. The antithisis of any reaonable definition of folk music.

Celtic music, Appalchian music, traditional African-American music, Cajun, etc., etc. appear on the radio in their own specialty shows. A comtemporary American audience would not see the connection in these muscial forms and would certainly not call them "folk."

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Jul 97 - 03:33 PM

Just yesterday, I heard a palomino singing "California Girls". Does this change anything?

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Jon W.
Date: 22 Jul 97 - 01:19 PM

More thoughts, back on the original subject:

To define a folk song, you first have to define the folk group. In my one semester of folklore in college, a folk group was very broadly defined - any identifiable group of people sharing some common characteristic was acceptable. For example city dwellers, computer geeks, and even a single family could be considered just as much a folk group as Appalachian mountain folk, Irish emmigrants, or eastern European Jews. Each group would obviously have their own folk tales, songs, crafts, foods, or other traditions. And the methods of dissemination can be different. For example I (being a computer geek) did as the semester project a collection of computer-related folk stories/materials. Mostly they were things that had been disseminated by copy machine, in those days (1980). Now fax machines, e-mail, and the internet are used. For example, the various virus warnings posted on the net and sent by email, almost all hoaxes, could be considered a form of folk tale. So it's pretty tough to exclude much if you allow any folk group in. For example, Wolfgang's hated football songs definitely qualify as folk songs for the folk group "German (or European) football fans". Maybe we need to work harder on which folk group(s) we are talking about.

My personal candidates, and what I have seen in DT for inclusion, would be British Isles/Celtic, Appalachian, Cowboy, African American (blues/work songs/spirituals). I would leave out singer/songwriter unless it was a song I liked. And there's the problem.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Bert Hansell
Date: 22 Jul 97 - 01:04 PM

Where abouts in New Mexico? I love that State.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Elsie
Date: 22 Jul 97 - 12:46 PM

alas, I no longer live near you...I am in New Mexico, and not easily near the music..(I would not find much solace in a singer/songwriter group I'm afraid) I find refuge in my records, this database..(hooray for the MIDIs!)and some trips to festivals...(Texas, Kansas...)but even that is harder to do right now....(Do you suppose being 'away from it all' has made me grumpy?)

Anyway, thanks...

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Jon W.
Date: 22 Jul 97 - 12:36 PM

It's tough to find anything to listen to live. I guess that's why we have to make the music ourselves. I'm more of a wannabe than a true musician - I've learned and forgotten a lot of '30's acoustic blues on guitar, I started listening to Irish/celtic a few years ago and from there I've tried to get more into American/appalachian traditions, and I'm trying to learn banjo and tin whistle with some success. Here in little old Murray Utah we have a free acoustic music festival each Labor Day. Last year the crowd was a few hundred. There was a singer/songwriter type trio (two guitar/vocalists and a standup bass, who did a funny song on being online), a good Irish band called Shanahy featuring Kate MacLeod (she's supposed to be known nationally, anyone heard of her? she plays fiddle, guitar, and sings), and then a group which I would have to categorize as acoustic country pop. I had to leave after a few of their songs, couldn't take it any more. When I hear of a good concert I go to it (if it's free or low cost - my wife keeps us on a strict entertainment budget). But those are few and far between. So I have to content myself with listening to recordings and a few radio shows and trying to learn the music by ear, which is a slow process for me. It's good to know there are others out there with the same struggles. Thanks to all.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Bert Hansell
Date: 22 Jul 97 - 12:30 PM

Elsie,

Good to see you back. If you live in the Philadelphia area come along to my place on the second Friday of the month. I have a very informal 'folk' circle where traditional stuff is very welcome.

I have only been here a couple of years and my experience of PFSS has been mixed. I like the informal 'sings' which are usually good. However the concerts all seem to be singer/songwriter stuff.

My needs as a singer/songwriter are more fully met by the Philadelphia Area Songwriters Alliance.

Bert. ([e-mail])

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Elsie
Date: 22 Jul 97 - 12:08 PM

Was going to retire to the background for awhile....but I have to reply to the last two....If what we have said has helped even Joe Offer to reconsider his viewpoint, then it has been worth it......and Joe, what you have gone thru with the 'folk' clubs, I have gone thru several times...I tried to be part of the Philadelphia Folk Song Society once upon a time, but it soon became clear that 95% of their interest was that festival, and as long as it drew a crowd, they didn't much give a hang for the notion of 'trad' or of singing much among themselves..(perhaps this has changed in recent years, but I doubt it..). I have also found performers that used to do a lot of traditional stuff have been changing because they simply could not get a large enough audience to make it pay to go on the road. I guess I can't blame them, but since I do NOT have to make a living singing what the masses want, I do a lot of searching for the few festivals, radio programs, records, clubs, (and yes, discussion groups) where I can immerse myself in my favorite music---and if some of the other stuff gets on me, I can brush it off---I just don't want too work too hard to sift out what I want from the waves of new styles, etc.(lazy, I suppose)

And Barry....while the rest of them 'squab'le, lets you and I eat duck! Quack!

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Jul 97 - 12:11 PM

Joe The upseting part is when I'm trying to buy duck & someone is selling me squab & saying they're the same thing, pretty soon no one is raising ducks anymore & going to the pond will be an excersice in futility. Elsie, it's ducky that you keep it up, thanks Just another Quack that likes ducks Barry

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jul 97 - 03:33 AM

I can't believe I'm saying this, but after reading all of these messages, I have to admit that Elsie and the purists have made a good point. What changed my mind is a look at the schedule of our local "folk" club, the Palms Playhouse in Davis, CA. I used to go to the Palms once a month or more, but now it's more like twice a year. The reason: most of the performers have the moniker "singer-songwriter," after their name. The more traditional performers have been squeezed out, to a great degree.
I suppose the real purists wouldn't call Bill Staines, "folk," but Bill does stuff that is rooted in tradition, songs that people like to sing along with. If fact, the whole audience sings along with most of Bill's songs at his annual Palms performance.
But Bill draws an audience of 75, about half a house full. John Gorka sells out two performances when he appears at the Palms. It's gotten to the point that I have to drive past the Palms and a hundred miles to San Francisco if I want to hear what I call real folk music.
So, Elsie, I agree that the Tradition must be preserved - but it must also be continued. If our music is to remain alive and healthy, not just a museum piece, we must be open to adding new songs to our canon of "traditional folk" music. 'Nuff said.
-Joe Offer, Sacramento, CA-

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From:
Date: 18 Jul 97 - 07:24 PM

While I have some sympathy for Elsie's position, given some of the rubbish passed off as folk music, I am glad that she doesn't do the bookings at the festivals I attend.

I do not think that something that is basically entertainment should be subject to such rigorous scientific analysis, as if we were classifying insects. Why on earth should Steeleye Span and Figgy Duff not be considered folk music, even though they use electric guitars and drum sets? Is the banjo a traditional European instrument? Did the person who wrote The Coventry Carol know anything about the modern fiddle?

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Angus
Date: 16 Jul 97 - 07:37 PM

I agree.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: RS
Date: 16 Jul 97 - 12:14 AM

Looking at the "process" rather than the "content" of this thread for a moment, let me put aside the question of "WHAT is folk", and speak to the question of "WHY try to define folk" (or any other category, or word)?

Some possible motivations behind the debate could include - (1) for the philosophical challenge of thinking about ideas

(2) for the fun & interest of the debate

(3) for practical purposes, e.g. to define boundaries, set up guidelines, etc.

(4) to identify group membership around the category

For the purposes of (1)&(2), philosophical challenge & debate, the more ideas, the better ... in brainstorming, no idea is too outrageous to be interesting ... the more diverse the opinions expressed, the more productive the debate.

On the other hand, for the purposes of (3)&(4), defining boundaries and generating group identity, some *consensus* is needed. And the consensus does not need to be "philosophically correct", as long as it is "practically useful".

This thread certainly meets the needs of (1) & (2) - reflection and debate.

So what about (3) & (4)? Is there a NEED for defined boundaries? Clearly in some circumstances there is. For example, a database with NO restrictions as to content could become so large that it could run out of server space - cost too much to maintain - & take too long to access or search through! A discussion forum with no defining limits could take so long to scan, that people would stop participating because of the sheer volume of correspondence. Arguments in favour of more rigidly defining this forum, also address the need to keep "a space of our own", along the lines of "the rock/country/musicals/etc crowds have other sites, let's keep this separate".

But I am not convinced that any of these are really serious concerns at this point. Computer technology being what it is, I've searched much larger databases without noticing much time difference in the response. And I agree with the approach that if a thread doesn't interest me, I just don't click on it. I certainly *don't* like the idea of flaming someone who posts a thread that someone else thinks is inappropriate, particularly in the absence of posted guidelines as to what the boundaries of the discussion forum are supposed to be. And if I'm preparing a songsheet, & need a song, I don't want to be afraid to post a title in case it's the wrong category & I get reprimanded. Anyway if somewhere wants to reply to a non-folk thread, who is hurt? It seems to me far more likely that non-folk-buffs who find this site friendly, will stay & learn about folk music; and not very likely that that they will *infiltrate & take over* & we'll be left with nothing but Rolling Stones & Led Zeppelin lyrics (or whatever).

My general experience in life is that if a group is friendly & welcoming, new members are very willing to conform to the group norms ... vs. if a group is restrictive & rejecting, potential new members are scared away. I would rather err on the side of inclusiveness than exclusiveness. (At least until the server space runs out.) FWIW -

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Angus McSweeney
Date: 15 Jul 97 - 09:41 PM

This is quite a thread. I just felt I had to add a word or two myself. My problem is simple: as I read each entry, I tend to agree with it. Then I read a rebuttle and tend to agree with IT! That, in essence, is why I believe we are never going to put this debate to rest. And that is also why you can't write "The Complete Book of Folk/Traditional Music". As the famous justice wrote about obscenity (paraphrasing here) "I may not be able to define it, but I know it when I see it". That seems to be the recurring theme in this thread, but we all seem to see it from slightly different angles. That means you won't find any answers in my contribution. Folk songs are by nature hard to define. I'm familiar with the Jazz categories Laoise, and being somewhat new to that genre I find them very helpful for finding my way around. A very narrowly focused folk music traditionalist trying to defend the integrity of this site might find this very thread a waste of good space meant, after all, for finding those old songs that can't be found elsewhere. But we're not that narrow, are we? A confession: I started the first Folk Fantasy Circle and wondered at the time if there might be howls of protest. But (in my experience) it became a great source of folk/traditional music that I often had not heard before. I've learned several songs from those threads, and more importantly, I started to see some personalities emerge from the various on-line names that frequently appear on postings. I believe that this site is really starting to resemble a community. This thread is a perfect example. And, just like a good folk circle, if someone occasionally serves up a song that doesn't quite fit the bill, we tend to smile inwardly and move on. And if someone (or several somone's in a row) tend to stray WAY off the path, then we try some redirection. It seems to me that this approach has worked pretty well at this site. For the purists who are much more educated than myself as to the TRUE definitions, and want to have a site that is TRULY exclusive, I'm afraid that the the nature of the internet prevents us from such purity. Unless we want to establish a password to get in. And I fervently hope that no one wants to do that. In conclusion, for anyone who stuck with me through all of this, I believe the entire discussion is very good, but I propose we don't do much of anything different than we we are doing now. (And my apologies for the use of capital letters...I am not shouting, I am just emphacising).

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: suzu
Date: 15 Jul 97 - 06:38 PM

Sheye: Debate is a good form of self-expression. It does not however mean that the debaters would like to isolate themselves from persons who do fall into the context of the debate. You're welcome here with your questions, ideas and above all, your presence.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Jon W.
Date: 15 Jul 97 - 06:37 PM

If when you hear a verse from one song sung in another, and it makes you glad not mad, then you know what a folk song is.

If you get excited by hearing different lyrics sung to the same old tune, then you know what a folk song is.

If you get a little disgusted with McKinley Morganfield (Muddy Waters) claiming authorship of songs you know darn well existed in a dozen variation before he recorded them, then you know what a folk song is. Of course you forgive him because he's just as deserving of the royalties as anyone.

I still believe there are only two people who ever wrote folk songs: Trad I. Shunnal and A. Nony Mouse. Everything else is folkstyle until no one knows who wrote it anymore.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Bill
Date: 15 Jul 97 - 03:01 PM

Sheye, I hope that you will continue to come back with whatever questions you may have, and that you will not let the definers and exclusionists close the site to you.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Sheye
Date: 15 Jul 97 - 01:52 PM

Wow! This is one cold thread. I must confess/apologize. I found this link through a back door and was not aware that the entries were meant to be traditional. (As asked above, is there a way of defining the ambiguity of time?)

I am also a somewhat younger pup in that I don't recognize MANY of the songs mentioned, and have learnt much about folk music from hanging out here, so thanks to those that have tolerated my postings; I've enjoyed yours as well. Another plus to the site is that it gives people who are interested in folk music, but who've had limited contact a place to explore their growing interest.

However, if this thread had been the first one I read, I would not have come back.