Subject: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Riginslinger Date: 04 Jan 08 - 09:17 PM Dennis Kucinich has filed a complaint with the FCC for having been excluded by ABC from the upcoming debates. I hope he wins. Who the hell do they think they are, anyway! |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Rapparee Date: 04 Jan 08 - 09:32 PM Since Reagan there has been no "Fairness Doctrine" in broadcasting. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Jan 08 - 09:36 PM He has already been excluded from the Iowa debate on a spurious technicality (made of specially for the occasion by the powers that be). He is now being excluded from the New Hampshire debate. Why? Because he says things that are so real that they are totally embarrassing to all the other Democratic candidates in the field, and the the Democratic Party Machine, and to the powers that be, meaning the national mainstream media and those who own them and fund them. For him to be excluded is the sort of thing that is supposed to only happen in corrupt and phony political systems in despotic countries that are run by a de facto dictatorship...that is, not an official dictatorship, but one that goes through the outward motions of carefully orchestrated multi-party elections that are sanitized and controlled by the ruling classes. How? By the simple fact that the ruling classes own the media outlets and own the political parties as well. That's how it works. Kucinich is providing REAL alternatives and they don't want the general public to hear a peep about it. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Charley Noble Date: 04 Jan 08 - 09:38 PM Dennis Kucinich is an excellent speaker and was persuasive enough three years ago to shift half of Maine's delegates to support him. He came into the State Convention with a little over 15% of the vote from the caucuses. He won't win the nomination but he is a fine spokesman for his positions. Charley Noble |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Big Mick Date: 04 Jan 08 - 09:43 PM This is pure bullshit. Kucinich should be included, and decent folks should say so. Mick |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Sorcha Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:44 PM Well, doh, Mick...sure. But they won't listen. They haven't for a really really long time. 'Decent' folks seldom have the money to force anyone to listen. As per the other thread, in US politics, it's money and connections. Most 'decent' people don't have either. YOU may be able to just ring up a president, or ex president but I damn sure can't. Hell, I can't even ring up my own Senators or Representative. I get the voice mail or the flunky. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: JohnInKansas Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:06 PM I sent an email to my State legislators, and received a reply (by telephone) from one State Senator informing that it was an inappropriate approach. When I asked what would be appropriate he suggested that I could "make a sign and go stand on a streetcorner." John |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Sorcha Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:16 PM Well, John...you do have good old Brownback....(ducks and runs.....) I sent a letter to our Rep. Dear Barbie Cubin about an issue I was concerned about. I got back a form letter (of course) thanking my for my intrest and concern about a totally unrelated, different issue. Well, we don't call her Barbie Doll for nothing. At least she isn't standing again. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Ron Davies Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:17 PM LH-- "...the ruling classes". Thanks for tying it to one of the all-time greatest hits in conspiracy theories. Somehow, I suspect there's another explanation. It would be good if we all kept our eyes open for it--even though the conspiracy theory is so much more fun. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: GUEST,Texas Guest Date: 05 Jan 08 - 12:40 AM Well, personally, I think this party is over any way. I would love to see a ticket of Edwards/Kucinich - in that order - but it'll never happen. Both Obama and Clinton are in the pockets of big business and we live in a corporatocracy, not a democracy. I still think that the republicans will win anyway when they pull out the old scare tactics and run McCain/Huckabee up the flagpole. I'll be left in the lurch to vote for Rue Paul, or whatever his name is. Cheers. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: katlaughing Date: 05 Jan 08 - 01:02 AM I've LOVE to see Edwards/Kucinich. Don't think the GOP will win no matter who they put up there. Everyone should be part of the debates. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: katlaughing Date: 05 Jan 08 - 01:17 AM You can send ABC feedback, for what it might be worth, from THIS PAGE, though I see that is supposed to be just for the online news. If you really want to stir them up, it looks as though someone needs to start a discussion thread about it on their Forums' Page There's more about how this came about from AP. Here's a snippet: The network set rules to narrow the field. Candidates had to meet at least one of three criteria: place first through fourth in Iowa, poll 5 percent or higher in one of the last four major New Hampshire surveys, or poll 5 percent or higher in one of the last four major national surveys. Democrats Joe Biden and Chris Dodd took some of the pressure off ABC by quitting the race Thursday night. "In previous debates where the stage was more crowded you had to make sure all of the candidates got fair time," said David Chalian, ABC News political director. "Here you will have more time to go in depth on the issues." ABC said it believed its rules were inclusive, while also ensuring viewers get a thorough look at the probable next president. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Jan 08 - 01:40 AM I'm not talking about a conspiracy, Ron. Not at all. I'm just talking about how people in the most influential positions in a system (in any country) act in order to perpetuate the system. They form an "in group" of their peers and their friends in business, and that in group is connected with lobbying, funding, media, and government at the levels where control can be reasonably well maintained most of the time...primarily through careful use of the mass media to shape public opinion. Every now and then something slips through their net or they miscalculate a drastic shift in the public mood...and their plans go awry. It's just special interests looking after themselves. That's not a conspiracy, it's business as usual. My use of the term "the ruling classes" may have been quite misleading and inflammatory. I didn't mean ALL the people who earn money above a certain income level. I meant those people who are already positioned in the strongest way at the top of major corporations, communications systems, media, banks, the military, and government, and who are usually descended from similar people who went before them......and they are all people who make a lot of money. That doesn't mean that ALL people who make a lot of money are guilty of some heinous conspiracy against the public! It just means that traditional bases of power in any country work to perpetuate themselves. Not conspiracy, Ron....sheer bloody self-interest! In so doing, they are usually fairly adept at winnowing out troublesome radicals like Kucinich or Ron Paul from rising high enough to rock the boat too much...and they find unfair ways of doing it. This is so in Mexico, for instance, (where a small number of very wealthy families pretty much own the country and have ever since its independence) and it's true in the USA also, but in a much more complex way than in Mexico. The Bushes and the Clintons are two of the families who belong in the elite I am referring to. Kissinger is a member of that elite. The Rockefellers and the Kennedys belong to it as well. Most of the most successful and famous politicians in American history are and were members of that elite. They all know each other. They went to the same schools (in most cases). They hang out at the same prestigious places amongst the same company. They very rarely let someone who might truly change things slip through the net. It's not just an American problem. It's a problem in just about every society on Earth. It's the maintenance of OLD power structures. And it has been so for the last few thousand years, because THAT's how established power perpetuates itself...through a select club or in group of rich and powerful who are accustomed to wielding power and are usually (though not always) born into it. That's not a conspiracy, Ron....but it is a disease afflicting our societies, and it needs a radical cure. As Texas Guest said, we live in a Corporatocracy....the corporation being the most pervasive and powerful means, at present, of controlling and monopolizing the movement of money, goods, and services around the world. It's serfs and robber barons. 99% of us are included among the serfs. Kucinich and Ron Paul both voted against the Iraq War from the beginning. They are both totally opposed to it, and they say they would bring the troops home without delay. That's why they are being marginalized by the $ySStem and its media, because those in charge of it have no intention of ending the USA's military adventures in the Middle East, in my opinion. That goes for Democrats and Republicans both. I like Obama a lot, and I would like to think that he would extricate the USA from its foreign wars...but would he really? (shrug) I have no idea. I believe Kucinich and Ron Paul would end the foreign wars. I think the $ySStem believes they would too. That means they are not going to get too far at all if the ruling $ySStem can do anything whatsoever about it...and again, that's not exactly a conspiracy...it's simply the aggressive maintenance of self-interest on the part of an establishment that has a program in motion and does not want anyone to stop their program. Think of the military contracts that are at stake! Think of the developers and oil companies who are tied into working in the war zone. Think of all the "special contractors" (mercenaries) who would lose their lucrative contracts if the USA stopped fighting in those countries. Billions and billions of dollars are at stake, Ron. That's what it's all about. That's always what it's all about. Not anyone's freedom, not any grand moral or political principles, not for democracy, not for anything else but money. Big money. In this case, blood money. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Ron Davies Date: 05 Jan 08 - 07:52 AM It's time to ditch the stupid, self-destructive cynicism that assumes that since money in involved in campaigning, the candidate is in the pocket of big money. Money is involved in campaigning--there's a rumor that it's been so for centuries, even including such people as St. John Kennedy and St. Franklin D. Roosevelt. Get over it. Each candidate is different. The sour cynics should start listening to what a candidate says and what he does, rather than recoiling in pious horror from filthy lucre. If you do believe that money is the only factor that determines everything in politics, you do in fact, as I said, subscribe to the conspiracy theory that money pulls the strings in all cases in all candidates---a singularly embittering and self-defeating attitude. And one pretty clearly held dearly by a few rather masochistic Mudcatters, who are totally incapable of understanding the difference between realism and cynicism. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Ron Davies Date: 05 Jan 08 - 08:07 AM "...what he--or she-- does." |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Bobert Date: 05 Jan 08 - 09:09 AM The FCC has become so politicized that it is nothing but Bush shills... Here's how it works... Big media gives oney to Bush and tells Bush that they want to monopolize/consolidate media by voiding long standing regs on ownership and then Bush passes it down to his Repub packed FCC and they do what he wants... So Dennis won't get anywhere complaining to them... He'd do better to walk into the woods and voice his complaints to the friggin' trees... The reason that media thinks it can get away with this is becasue it can... Publicly owned air-waves, my boney hillbilly butt... Beam me up, Scotty, there's no intellegent life here... B~ |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: katlaughing Date: 05 Jan 08 - 10:51 AM They'd rather stick to their told-ya-so bitching, Ron, I swear. No thought as to how their words effect things, including bringing about their own strongly held, self-fulfilling beliefs. It takes a lot of effort to change one's words from negative to positive. LH, for all your espousing of metaphysics, etc., I am surprised you blithely go along with all of the negative, can't-do-a-thing-poor-lowly-serf bs. I challenge those of you who always write negatively, who always complain to thirty days of NOT doing so. Thirty days of only writing/speaking positive things about these issues and YES, there are positives. Can you do it for thirty days? Will you? |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: CarolC Date: 05 Jan 08 - 10:53 AM start listening to what a candidate says and what he does Those of us who support Kucinich are doing precisely that. It's precisely because we are paying attention to what the other candidates say and do that we support him and it's precisely because of what they say and do that we know they are beholden to the big money interests. And we also know that money gets people elected. That's an established fact. And now I need to go get ready for a Kucinich rally I'm helping to organize. PEACE ~ It's not just for Christmas any more ~ KUCINICH for president 2008! |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Riginslinger Date: 05 Jan 08 - 11:45 AM Anybody who doesn't see the influence of big money in American political campaigns has to be in denial. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Jan 08 - 12:35 PM I could get all defensive, Ron and Kat....(smile)..., buy why? I don't consider myself a cnyic at all. I hope for all kinds of good things in the near future. I like Obama. I hope he does very well. I like Edwards. I sort of like Hillary too, although I worry about her backers. They all (Obama, Edwards, Clinton) have big money behind them. I like Kucinich even better...but his resources are more limited. I like some of the stuff Ron Paul is saying on the Republican side. I wish them all well. What I would like most of all would be to see the very best minds who are opposing the Iraq war putting their energies into a cooperative effort to form the next government and work together, rather than spending all this effort and money trying to knock each other off the top spot. I'd ultimately like to see a radically different political system in place, and I have expressed it as best I can in this post: A different system of primaries altogether |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Jan 08 - 01:05 PM Competition is warfare. Warfare is cruel and ruthless. It depends on subterfuge and treachery. It's objective is total victory, achieved by destruction of an "enemy". Cooperation is constructive. It is not cruel and ruthless. It depends upon good communication and honesty. Its objective is progress and improvement, achieved by combined effort. I am in favor of any changes in the political system...AND in American foreign policy...and in economic policy...and in social policy...which would focus on cooperation rather than competition. And in so saying, of course, I am proposing something radically different than the aggressive, competitive approach presently dominating western society in almost every field of endeavour. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: kendall Date: 05 Jan 08 - 02:05 PM Romney has spent 17 million dollars, and he is tied with Huckabee who has spent a fraction of that. What does that tell you? |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Riginslinger Date: 05 Jan 08 - 02:12 PM Religion is dangerous! |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Jan 08 - 02:22 PM Anything is dangerous...when put in the wrong hands. Your mistake is to confuse the thing itself with the one who misuses it. Evil is not in a tool, evil is in the actions of one who misuses a tool. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Don Firth Date: 05 Jan 08 - 02:32 PM Both Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich were interviewed on Bill Moyers' Journal last night. Kucinich is not giving up. Good for him!! If you missed it, you can watch the video HERE. Contrary to what some say about PBS being as biased as the rest, as far as I know, this is the only news service to give any time at all to Dennis Kucinich. I fought like hell for Kucinich in my precinct caucus last time and I will do so again this time around. NOW with David Brancaccio last night was on "Dirty Politics." Most interesting! You can watch that as well, HERE Don Firth |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: michaelr Date: 05 Jan 08 - 03:13 PM Ron Davies, do you not have anything to say on this forum but your endless, repetitive kvetching about "cynical" and "self-defeating" members? We've heard it numerous times now in numerous other threads, many of which you started. Feel free to stop anytime now, it's getting old. Cheers, Michael |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Don Firth Date: 05 Jan 08 - 03:29 PM I can't help but agree with Ron. There are people here who's leitmotif on any of the political threads is to proclaim that it doesn't matter who you vote for, Republican or Democrat, because they're both the same, controlled by corporate interests. Every damned political thread, they're here, beating the same hopeless hum-drum. Now, that is cynical and self-defeating! Do they seriously believe that if Gore had been elected in 2000 instead of Bush, the world would not be a very different place!??? Now, really! Don Firth |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Jan 08 - 03:51 PM Ah...well...you'd like to think that about those certain "people" you are alluding to, but it's not so, Don. I DO believe electing Gore rather than Bush in 2000 would have made a huge positive difference, and I always have believed so. I DO feel rather inspired by the possibility of either Obama or Edwards being elected, although I would prefer Kucinich. I am not inclined, as so many are, to demonize Hillary Clinton. I am not nearly as "cynical" or negative or defeatist as you imagine me to be, but I will not cease pointing out endemic corruption whereve it exists in the American political system. Nor will I cease vigorously questioning the tacit assumption that seems to be common in America that a 2-party political system is any kind of "good" way (let alone the best way!) to achieve an enlightened and just society. To question these things as I do is not defeatism or cynicism...it's a wake-up call and a call for radical change. All of society is now being dominated by the Corporatocracy....NOT just the political scene. That's something that is going to have to be seriously addressed and challenged in humanity's next great world struggle for freedom. We may find some political leaders with the guts to challenge it. I hope so. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Peter Kasin Date: 05 Jan 08 - 04:04 PM Obama in the pockets of big business? In fact, his campaign accepts no money from big special interests. No money from the health care industry, and on and on. That speaks volumes about the man, no? I think It's a crime that Kucinich was excluded from the Iowa debate. I would hope Mudcat supporters of any candidate could agree on that. Chanteyranger |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Jan 08 - 04:11 PM Me too. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Don Firth Date: 05 Jan 08 - 04:19 PM I agree with most of what you just said, Little Hawk. But I don't know how many times on these threads I've read posts by you and a number of others contending that the candidates have all been bought, and although you don't necessarily say it, the implication--and the reality, if it were really as prevalent as claimed--is that it makes no difference who one votes for because they're all "owned" by the corporations anyway. Keep repeating it, and people start to figure "Why bother compaigning? Why bother even voting? It's all cut and dried, so why should I waste my time?" Now, that is self-defeating. And not just a little cynical. The only way the people can take the country back from the corporatocracy is if enough folks--believing they can make a difference--get sufficiently riled up to get involved in politics. Don Firth |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Bee Date: 05 Jan 08 - 05:39 PM Don is correct that in the end it is the apathy of many voters that allows some politicians to reach high positions they have no business occupying. I don't see how anyone can deny that governments are influenced heavily by corporate interests, though. It's often been quite obvious in Canada, where with a much smaller population it is possible to actually notice such things as MPs and PMs being wined, dined and defined by the corporate elite - it gets reported in the news, b'ys, and the effects on our laws and policies are quite evident. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Jan 08 - 06:32 PM "The only way the people can take the country back from the corporatocracy is if enough folks--believing they can make a difference--get sufficiently riled up to get involved in politics." Absolutely, Don. I agree with you 100%. Here's the text of an email the Kucinich campaign has just sent out to its supporters. I'm on their list. Dear Kucinich Supporter, We want to keep you updated with everything that is happening with the ABC situation. As you know, they have excluded Dennis from tonight's debate. Yesterday, the Kucinich for President Campaign filed an emergency complaint with the Federal Communications Commission claiming that the ABC television network is violating its obligation to operate in the public interest by excluding Ohio Democratic Congressman Dennis Kucinich from tonight's scheduled debate in Manchester, NH. The filing points out that Kucinich is the only Democratic presidential candidate who has qualified for Federal matching funds who is being excluded by ABC. Further, the complaint charges, the televised event is not a true presidential primary debate without including all credible candidates, but instead is effectively an endorsement of the candidates selected by ABC. Besides fighting this in court, we are fighting on the airwaves by purchasing TV and radio time. Supporters will also be gathering outside the location of the debate in Manchester, New Hampshire tonight to hear Dennis speak. But he should be inside at the debate. Mainstream America needs to hear about the one real Democrat - Dennis Kucinich. We need your support to get the word out that Dennis has the platform that America needs and wants. The mainstream media won't tell you. Did you know Dennis just won another straw poll? It was held by the Washington State Democratic Party but you will have to look hard to find it! Don, I'm not even an American citizen or an American resident, but I care about your country. For one thing, I lived there for 10 years (age 10 to 20), so it's a very big part of my own background. (I'm really sort of a Canadian-American, to all intents and purposes, though Canada, being where I was born, is a bit closer to my heart.) For another, the USA is part of North America, and what I really am is this: I'm a North American. I care about what happens on this whole continent deeply, because this continent is my birthplace! It's a single great land to me, and a holy place. I am doing what I personally can to support the Kucinich campaign, even though I don't live in the USA, because it matters to me what happens. I will do what I can to support Obama or Edwards if they run for president. Hillary Clinton? I am uncertain about what I would do if she won the nomination...it might depend on a number of other factors, such as the Republican alternative, for example. You see, it's not the individual politicians themselves whom I am really upset with. It's the Coporatocracy, the shadow government behind the scenes. It's the unwarranted intrusion of the Corporatocracy into every important process, domestic and international, that is crippling the ability of individual politicians in most nations to really serve their public honestly, and it's this subversion by the Corporatocracy that has got to be fought and stopped...BY individual politicians who have the courage to take it on and by the public in general. While I am disgusted with the corruption of the traditional political machines that the Democratic and Republican parties have become over the last many decades...that does not mean that I am disgusted with the individuals who are members in those parties or with the individuals who are running for office (provided they are honest and forthright in genuinely serving the public, rather than serving a bunch of corporate lobbyists). |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Riginslinger Date: 05 Jan 08 - 08:40 PM With all that's been said, I still don't see how it's right for ABC to be meddling the the campaign. They've virtually shut the minor candidates out. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Don Firth Date: 05 Jan 08 - 08:53 PM Very good, Little Hawk. Methinks we're on the same page. Don Firth |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Jan 08 - 09:36 PM Yes, we are indeed. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: katlaughing Date: 06 Jan 08 - 12:16 PM Nice to see your solutions posted...much more positive, LH. Thanks. I had missed your posting in the other thread as I've been avoiding it.:-) I agree with most of what you've posted, as well as with Don. I heard an intriguing proposal the other day to get rid of special interest money for campaigns. David Cay Johnston, from the NYTs said this in an interview with Senior Editor Brian Doherty of REASON ONLINE, about his latest book, Free Lunch: How the Wealthiest Americans Enrich Themselves at the Government's Expense and Stick You With the Bill : Johnston: For 35 years we tried to reform the government through campaign finance reform, and it hasn't worked, and the Supreme Court is hostile to it. So I suggest we try something new—politician finance reform. I was inspired by the franking privilege. Have all the costs and expenses of being a member of Congress be publicly funded—an unlimited expense account essentially, but with complete disclosure including who they met with and the substance of the conversation—not every detail but generally what they were talking about. Then there would be a rule that says, now that we paid all costs, including for keeping up two households, if you take so much as a free shot of whisky, you go to prison. Zero tolerance for politicians. If we approach this idea of paying the full real cost of Congress then I think perhaps we can get closer to a system where members of Congress are not thinking about what donors want. reason: I'm curious if you ever get to the point, studying example after example of how government works to prop up the powerful, where you just throw up your hands and decide that it's government itself that is inherently the problem here... Johnston: When people say a problem is intractable, I think that's the most un-American thing you can say. The whole idea of America is that we will solve our own problems. We recognize people abuse power, so we limit it—put in checks and balances. We will solve these problems when people decide they care enough to solve them. I think a big problem is many Americans are giving up on democracy. I never throw my hands up about these problems, and if I did, that would be saying that I don't think this ingenious idea, the Constitution, can work, and I do. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: CarolC Date: 06 Jan 08 - 12:25 PM There has been a concerted effort on the part of the mainstream media in the US to prevent Kucinich from getting exposure, or to shape any exposure he got in such a way as to make him look bad. They've been very effective in doing this, too. A lot of the people I encountered yesterday had never even heard of Kucinich. I was encouraged by the fact that when I told them about him and about his ideas and plans, most of them really liked what they heard. This is why the mega-corporations don't like Kucinich (and will do whatever they can, including engaging in censorship and propaganda to keep him out of the public eye). They are afraid of him because if he is elected, he will help the voters and undermine the corporatocracy. In fact, he'll do this regardless of whether he wins or not, just by being in the race and getting exposure. If they were to allow him to participate in the debate, he would have made the other candidates and their corporatist agendas look bad, as he has done so many times before, and they know it. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Bobert Date: 06 Jan 08 - 01:08 PM Well, speaking as a long time Greenie, I am finally seein' enough light between the Repubs and Dems to actually work for the Dems in my county if Obama or Edwards gets the nimination... Hillary, bless her heart, no... Would I work for Kucinich??? Heck, yeah... He's as Green as there is... B~ |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Jan 08 - 02:19 PM Here's today's email from the Kucinich campaign: New Hampshire, Iowa and Edwards Dear Supporter, For the record: New Hampshire is the first state where we are aggressively campaigning. Due to the Party lockout in Iowa, we chose to focus on New Hampshire. I am the only person running for President who voted against the war, against funding the war 100% of the time, against the Patriot Act, and who stands for a universal single-payer not-for-profit healthcare system. Nevertheless I was excluded from Saturday night's ABC Presidential debate, or four tone monologue as it was. In answer to your questions about why I didn't support former Senator John Edwards on the second ballot in Iowa: I have serious concerns about his connections to a Wall Street hedge fund, Fortress Investment Group. While attacking others for accepting campaign money from Washington lobbyists, he is up to his ears in money from Wall Street special interests. He made half a million dollars in a single year for attending a few meetings for Fortress and has invested a substantial part of his own personal wealth in the hedge fund whose portfolios are responsible for sub-prime predatory lending practices, Medicare privatization, and an entire range of corporate sharp dealings that are driving the middle class into poverty. While I indicated Senator Obama as a preferred second choice in Iowa, Progressives have fundamental disagreements with him and all of the other Presidential candidates on most of their major positions on the issues. We must have the courage of our convictions to fully support and vote for what it is we really want. For once, we must realize our power, stop playing tactical games, and vote as a bloc - which, as you know, is what the religious right does and why they often win. We Progressives are in the majority in this election. We will win only when we refuse to compromise and vote with integrity. Dennis Kucinich |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Riginslinger Date: 06 Jan 08 - 05:19 PM Well, anything that would de-rail the religious right has to be a good thing. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Jan 08 - 05:57 PM Rinslinger, I would agree with you on that as far as the political process goes. Outside of the political process,though, you will never derail the fundamentalist religious sectors in society...anymore than you will derail the sectors who happen to like football...or really loud music....or marijuana...or anything else you could care to mention. It's a matter of free choice, and some people in a society freely choose to be religious in the way that you don't like, and they always will. But yes, I would like to see them exerting far less influence on the American election process! ;-) You'd like Canada a lot. The religious right here commands, oh, I'd say about 1 or 2 per cent of the vote here at the most...and they have no discernable effect on our political election process. They are virtually invisible. There are people who run here on a "Christian Heritage Party" ticket. They will get maybe fifty or a hundred votes in a town of 35,000 people...all from their local church congregation, I guess. And that's at the most. Any yet, I suspect that a majority of Canadians nonetheless believe in God or in something spiritual in their own particular way....but that does NOT result in a political movement like the religious right in the USA. The American religious right is an extraordinary phenomenon. I don't think it has any parallel in any other country in the developed world. It's one of the very oddest things about the USA. It's shocking from the perspective of people in most other developed countries. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Riginslinger Date: 06 Jan 08 - 06:32 PM "The American religious right is an extraordinary phenomenon. I don't think it has any parallel in any other country in the developed world. It's one of the very oddest things about the USA." Yeah, unless you want to include the Muslim nations. There might be some argument as to whether they're developed or not, but... |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Jan 08 - 06:49 PM Yes, the officially Islamic nations are really the only places that are very comparable in that way....although they're quite different, of course, an entirely different kind of society and tradition from the USA. That makes the conflict between the USA and the Islamic people all the more nasty too, because religion is used to whip people up and get them in a fighting mood...on both sides. Mind you, if it wasn't religion, it would be some other excuse, because the real origin of this fight goes back to the West's desire to control key oil-producing areas through a group of powerful oil companies. It started with the UK in the Middle East (British Petroleum - BP), and the USA has since the end of WWII taken over as the main player, with the UK playing a much secondary role, but still playing. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Riginslinger Date: 06 Jan 08 - 06:55 PM Here's a concept. I wonder if the master planers had considered getting people addicted to one religion or another, and then threaten to withdraw it if they didn't fight? |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: bobad Date: 06 Jan 08 - 08:06 PM "The religious right here commands, oh, I'd say about 1 or 2 per cent of the vote here at the most...and they have no discernable effect on our political election process. They are virtually invisible." I don't know about that LH, the present federal government, if you recall, is comprised of an amalgamation of the "Progressive" Conservatives and the "Reform" party of Preston Manning which was mostly represented by right wing, western Canadian, born again Christians. The difference between the Canadian and American versions is that the Canadians tend to keep their beliefs to themselves, especially in view of the fact that they are in a minority government situation. I feel that they will become more assertive when/or if they ever win a majority. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Jan 08 - 10:55 PM "The difference between the Canadian and American versions is that the Canadians tend to keep their beliefs to themselves" That's my point. Canadians leave overt religiosity out of their political dialogue, and talk about issues instead. It would be considered inapropriate in this country and downright embarrassing for politicians to use religion as a way of self-promotion or as a way of attacking their opponents. In that way, it's utterly unlike the USA, and a good thing. I'm not saying a lot of Canadians aren't religious...I'm saying that they don't tend to bring it into the public political dialogue...(nor do the Europeans). We see religious faith as a private matter, not a public matter. And so it should be, same as one's sex life. I have no objection to electing people who are religious. No objection at all. But I would object to them turning religion into a political football come election time. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Donuel Date: 07 Jan 08 - 10:35 AM Frankly I'm surprised that NBC is allowing Ron Paul on the Leno Show. Does the FCC have a measuing stick for who falls outside inclusion in debates? Even if they did the Networks have the last word. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Riginslinger Date: 07 Jan 08 - 10:43 AM Donuel - It just seems to me that there's something really wrong with allowing a network to decide who gets into the debates and who does not. How does that get to be their decision. Another thing. I watched the chairman of the New Hampshire Democratic Party on C-Span this morning, and he said that that illegal immigration was one of the top 3 or 4 issues for Democrats in New Hampshire. Yet the moderator of the debates for the Democrats didn't even mention immigration. He did for the Republicans, but not the Democrats. It's just another example of corporate control over the process. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jan 08 - 12:56 PM Yes, that's correct, Rinslinger. They can shape perceptions the way they best want it merely by the questions they decide to ask...and the ones they decide not to. That's a clever and devious way to shape the agenda and mould the public's view of the process. You just leave out certain key questions that ought to be asked! The same thing is done all the time in public opinion polls. The questions in the poll are carefully crafted and worded so as to automatically deliver the very answers that the pollsters would like to get. Flim-flam and chicanery. That's corporate salesmanship. Tell the people only what you want them to know, and nothing more. Create the impression that will sell the product. What Kucinich and Ron Paul in particular are doing is they are refusing to play the standard political game and stay within the standard limits. They are pulling back the curtain that hides "the Great Oz". They are openly saying the things that the others in their respective parties will not say...and pointing out that the emperor has no clothes, when no one else will even remark on it. That pre-emptive war is an unconstitutional violation of international law and a betrayal of historical American values. It surprises me, therefore, that Ron Paul has not already been screened out of the public perception by the networks, as they have certainly attempted to do with Kucinich. |