EFDSS proposed name change

Subject: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 08:00 AM

Those who are members of the English Folk Dance and Song Society or who follow it on social media will be aware that is is considering changing its name. It is currently consulting the members, and will throw it open to all in the New Year.

The reasons given are set out on its website
A consultation about our name

There was a Mudcat discussion on this topic nearly 10 years ago:
Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo

The proposed alternative is "Folk Arts England". I must admit I don't like the term "folk arts" which doesn't immediately make me think of music or dance. It is already being abbreviated on social media to "FARTS" so we'll see whether it lasts.

I am concerned that it wants to drop the word "English". The negative examples it gives are all to do with people's sense of personal identity, but I struggle to see how it can promote English folk music without using the word. What hope have we of standing up for English culture if the organisation which exists to promote it is embarrassed by it?

I can understand that the name feels a bit old-fashioned, but it does encapsulate its purpose as set out in its charitable objects, which is "to preserve English folk dances and songs and other folk music". Note the "English".

I can't help but feel that the EFDSS should be more concerned by its utter failure to engage with the majority of people involved with folk music. Currently it only has around 2000 individual members, and seems to concentrate on professional artist development rather than the grass roots. It is often criticised for being London-centric. It seems to me it should first be taking a hard look at what it should be doing, and only then can it choose a name which reflects that.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: matt milton
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 08:57 AM

I think the silly 'abbreviation' to FARTS by some people is neither here nor there: it's a contrivance rather than abbreviation (which would more commonly be 'FAE') by people who clearly want to find fault.
That's a distraction to the main points here.

I actually support the move towards 'England' rather than 'English' in the name change. There's a nuance here: it's a subtle nuance but it's an important one. 'England' foregrounds physical geography in a way that 'English' does not. Remember that this is a branding exercise - the name of an organisation does not have to sum up everything about it (eg Ceoltas, which in isolation doesn't tell you anything about the function of that organisation).

I don't think EFDSS is proposing to replace every instance of the word 'English' with 'of England': just in the name.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 09:27 AM

The current EFDSS 'brand' rates about 0.0036% market share, assuming they're all English of course. I'm fairly certain the board is smart enough to know their 'Society,' by any other name, will remain utterly, thoroughly and completely... meaningless to the vast majority of the population, and even to many people who already enjoy folk music and dance.

It's a standard, garden variety environmental, social and corporate governance (ESG) overhaul. So not directly related to song, dance and/or music of any kind.

Either way somebody gets 'excluded' or offended and roughly 27.999 out of 28.000 Englandishers will continue to not care who, which or why.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 09:41 AM

I think that nuance is significant. Does it see its purpose as promoting English folk music, ie the folk tradition native to England, or is it trying to stake a claim to all folk music performed in England, from any culture or background?

Both are respectable objectives. Its charitable objects include "to preserve English folk dances and songs and other folk music" When you look at what we mean by "Irish folk music" or "Scottish folk music" it seems reasonable to interpret "English folk music" to mean the native folk traditions of England. (I realise that no tradition exists in isolation, so let's not get diverted by what is "English folk music", you know what I mean).

The inclusion of "other folk music" allows it to extend its scope beyond this. However I wonder how some other communities might feel about EFDSS/Folk Arts England claiming to represent their music?

This is all part of what I mean about deciding on a direction before choosing a name. Of course a name can't encapsulate everything, but it should try to convey its main activities.

I fear FARTS may stick, no matter how hard they try to insist on another abbreviation. DEAFASS (the Dance Earnestly and Forget About Song Society) is still about more than 40 years after Lawrence Heath coined it, and long after it ceased to be a fair criticism. Remember that the majority of folkies are not members, find it of little relevance to them, and are very ready to find fault.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 09:45 AM

Matt Milton
But does the organistion have a function?other than making itself look ridiculous

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 09:58 AM

I doubt if its reduction in membership is anything to do with its name. SO WHY CHANGE THE NAME.
If a football team keeps losing matches, is it the fault of its name ,no it is the fault of how it is being run, the same applies to this organisation, it keeps losing members, why? calling it folk arts or anything else, is not the root of its problem, the root of the problem is possibly poor management, not the name

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 10:19 AM

I have commented on this in the "is folk a dirty word" thread but will rerun the stuff if it helps.

Dick is spot on.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 10:29 AM

Phil, I am familiar with the concept of ESG. It should be a tool to help organisations improve their services and recognise their wider role in society. It should not be the tail wagging the dog.

Of course we know folk music is of no interest to the majority of the population, to whom the EFDSS under any name will be entirely irrelevant. The Board should be more concerned that it is of little interest or relevance even to those who are involved with folk. The individual membership at 31 March 2020 stood at only 2202, which is simply pathetic.

I've been involved in folk music for 50 years, as a singer, a morris dancer, a ceilidh band musician, and an events organiser. In all that time the EFDSS has been entirely irrelevant to me, and if it were to disappear tomorrow it would not make the slightest difference to any of my musical activities. A straw poll of my friends showed that many feel the same, and those who are members often only do it to support the Library. Despite that, I am glad that there is an organisation which tries to encourage what I love, I just wish it did it better and that it did more to support grass-roots folk beyond Camden.

I agree that the current name may be a bit old-fashioned, although I'm not sure that's a bad thing. I don't think "Folk Arts England" conveys folk music (although some of the alternatives they considered are worse) and suggests a direction even further away from the folk music I am involved with.

I'm not campaigning one way or the other. People look out for the consultation when it goes public and make their views known.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 10:58 AM

Malcolm, they have at least assured us that "folk" is not up for negotiation.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 11:01 AM

Posting 1 to t'other thread

It has actually become a dirty word at the EFDSS (English Folk Dance & Song Society) along with English (very dirty) and Society (smutty) according to the clowns employed to run it.
Sensible questions addressed to "Officers" are ignored and it would be easier to get answers from the Government spooks than anyone at Cecil Sharp (remember him?) House - no doubt soon to be renamed 37 whatever street it is on.

Posting 2 to t'other thread

Here are some snippets of correspondence with a concerned friend - no name no pack drill.

Me
So now to the latest rubbish to arrive from the front!
 
The so called questionnaire / survey must have been put together by an eight year old with learning difficulties!!
What a mess.
 
I note "they" are taking this forward on the strength of initial responses from 65 (SIXTY FIVE) persons - that's almost one in a million of the UK population. Impressive what?
 
What does the current treasurer think of the idea of throwing money away?
 
Before any decisions are made on this issue it would be far more important to look at the current staff appointments, their salaries and most importantly their responsibilities. I have a feeling there is a lot of dead wood - including those at the top.
 
WE ARE NOT A SECRET SOCIETY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
As I say above a cull is needed.


Part of reply

I've had the questionnaire, but not yet opened up .... I've seen enough Facebook messages, including from a professional statistician, rubbishing the structure to convince me that I need to be calm before I open it.

Me

Another point I made was that at the time I joined the Society they/we were pushing to attain a membership of 10,000.
The staff structure at the time including field staff was less than the current numbers.
They also did not have the benefit of computers etc to aid the running of the Society.

Membership now stands at less than 2000 (there's progress) and yet seems to cost in real terms a hell of a lot more to administer.

Lot's to think about when the body which purports to represent our interests in a culture we all supposedly treasure is in the hands of these people.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 11:32 AM

The questionnaire does seem to be designed to produce the answer they want. There is no opportunity to vote on the name itself, although you can add comments.

I think the survey they did on "Englishness" was misguided and asked the wrong questions. The answers are all about people's sense of self-identity. However whether or not one enjoys a genre of music is primarily an aesthetic choice. It may help to feel a personal connection with it, but it is not necessary in order to enjoy it. English music is played around the world, often by people with no connections with England. There are morris teams overseas, and they are not all English ex-pats. Somewhere on Youtube is a video of an English music session in Japan, with Japanese musicians.

This is even more true of Irish music, which has a strong following all round the world (also including Japan), well beyond the Irish diaspora. Back home, I know English musicians who play Cajun and Zydeco, klezmer, French and Scandinavian music who have no connections to any of them. It's just music. Do you have to be German to enjoy Bach?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 02:03 PM

Howard: Shoulda, woulda, coulda. Forget the dog... it's all about the kibble.

Institutional/academic folk relies on institutional/academic consumers. The ESG is a box someone's supervisor has to tick off before they approve payment of the membership fees &c. Likely does not know folk from fly speck and does not care.

No ESG? That's racist. The mandatory/automatic response is boycott, divest and sanction (BDS.) ie: Cancel perhaps the majority of the few remaining subscriptions.

If you're this far along, anybody at EFDSS who disagreed with the process has long since been handed their hat and shown the door in like fashion.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 03:29 AM

English ~ Yes, Folk ~ of the people, Dance ~ yes, Song ~ yes, Society ~ yes so

So EFDSS ~ yes

Folk Arts? what does that instantly convey? Nothing really could be owt

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 03:39 AM

perhaps EFDSS instead of worrying about their name ,might consider how to increase membership by making joining more enticing., what else can they offer etc, at the moment they offer limited insurance for folk events in the uk,can they make that international?
they need to look at their business model, they need more income, and less outgoings.
Does Chnging the name provide more income, no it will just incur costs

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 03:49 AM

I suspect that at least part of the motivation behind this is a desire to be taken seriously by the grown-up arts establishment they seem desperate to be a part of. And, to be fair, the current team under Katy Spicer have been very successful in getting funding from the Arts Council. The digitisation of the Library is a significant achievement, so hats off there.

"English Folk Dance and Song Society" just isn't a very cool name. My difficulty (and perhaps it's just me) is that "folk arts" isn't a term I relate to.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 04:22 AM

some information for organisers.
To Whom It May Concern
28th September 2021
PUBLIC LIABILITY INSURANCE CERTIFICATE
Valid only if shown with proof of EFDSS membership or affiliation
The Assured: Individual Members of the Society and Affiliated Groups whilst undertaking
activities as notified to the Society, e.g Caller, Folk Club etc
Period of Insurance: 12 months from 31st December 2020
Interest: Insurers will indemnify the Assured against their legal liability for damage,
death, disease or bodily injury up to the indemnity limit hereon in
accordance with the terms, conditions and exceptions of the Policy Wording
Indemnity Limit: £5,000,000 any one occurrence and unlimited in the period. There is an
Excess of £100 each and every claim
Territorial Limits: Anywhere in the United Kingdom or Europe but subject to UK Jurisdiction
i.e litigation can only be brought within a Court of Law within the UK
Insurers: Ansvar Insurance
Policy Number: CCP 2334031
Notes: Please note the policy does not cover hazardous activities or pursuits,
e.g the use of fireworks. The policy does not cover events where the
attendance is expected to be in excess of 500 persons.
For further clarity, or in the event of any incident, please contact the brokers: Neil Corrie at
Bryan James & Co Ltd – 01942 603196 – [e-mail]
Yours faithfully
Neil Corrie
Neil Corrie
Bryan James & Co Ltd
[e-mail]
www.bryanjames.co.uk
Authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority
Registered Office: 312 High Street, Harlington, Hayes, Middlesex UB3 5BT Registered Number: 1758910(UK) – Financial Services
Number 303240
Lowton Business Centre
Lowton Business Park
Newton Road
Lowton
Warrington
WA3 2AN
Telephone [phone]


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 04:38 AM

The scourge of winkie wankie wokies.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 04:52 AM

The EFDSS was originally formed when two separate organizations, The Folk Song Society and the English Folk Dance Society, united as one organization. The Folk Song Society never limited itself to just publishing English songs. The amalgamation occurred because the Board of the Folk Song Society believed that its members had collected all the folk songs that were then being sung. And, although the Dance side of things used the term 'English', they were quite happy for its members to publish books and articles relating to dance traditions from other countries.

So, do I like 'Folk Arts England'. No I don't. It is too parochial.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 04:58 AM

not to mention meaningless.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: matt milton
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 05:04 AM

From what I've heard (insider information!) the name change is largely about receiving funding: something that will demonstrate inclusivity and sound a bit more 21st century. So it really doesn't matter what the name is.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 05:10 AM

Perhaps FAE could have two different branches, dealing with contemporary and traditional. They would be known as "New Farts" and ....

Oh well

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 05:49 AM

That one pressed my buttons Peter

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 05:51 AM

If it is indeed about receiving funding (which supports Phil d'Conch's view that this is an ESG box-ticking exercise) then they might get more support by saying so.

Another organisation I am involved with is going through much pain and anguish trying to bring in improved governance structures in order to continue to receive funding - there is still much debate but it least the reasons are clear and explicit.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 05:55 AM

Some years ago I read that a police force in southern England decided to set up two 'Fast Action Response Teams'. Apparently the higher-ups liked the idea, that is until somebody realized that the teams would be commonly known as 'Fart 1' and 'Fart 2'. The idea was quickly dropped.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 10:31 AM

Oh dear,I should miss being able to call it,The English Ping Pong and Prance Society.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 10:52 AM

I agree with the OP and much of the subsequent discussion, particularly that there are more important matters that EFDSS should be addressing itself to, and that "Folk Arts England" fails to identify that the organisation is concerned with dance, song and music rather than, for example, painting and theatre. (Though maybe mummers plays count as Folk Theatre?) Also in there, perhaps inevitably, is the issue of what "Folk" means. EFDSS seems to think it's at least as much, if not more, about sponsoring new material as about traditional material.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 11:37 AM

I don't trust anything that contains the label "Arts".

Robin

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 11:38 AM

As I see it the EFDSS has three quite distinct functions:

1) A learned society for the preservation and study of English folk music, which chiefly means the Library and the Journal, and a programme of lectures

2) To promote folk music as an art form, which it does mainly through professional artist development and various projects and collaborations

3) To support "grass roots folk" which possibly includes its education activities (although this could be seen as a separate function). This is where it is weakest, it doesn't seem to offer much apart from the activities at C# House. If you're outside London, forget it.

Among those friends I've asked about this, they attach most value to 1 and 3, although they don't feel their own grass roots activities get much support. EFDSS itself seems to put most emphasis on 2. This is possibly why it is failing to attract members.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 12:06 PM

As an intrusive outsider, let me put ni my two cents.

"English" in this context might mean several different but perhaps overlapping things.

It might mean a Society interested in folksong and dance but made up of only English people.

Or a non-restrictive FS & D society based in England. (As I've always interpreted it.)

Or a society devoted solely to English FS & D.

(And for added interest, recall that at the time of its organization, "England" was in frequent use - in England and the U.S. at least - as a synechdochal synonym for "Britain.")

So perhaps the Society should keep its name, while attending to any aspects of FS & D its members prefer.

Just sayin'.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 12:54 PM

So far:
The ESG is mandatory for existing and future instutional/academic funding.

The cancel culture-ESG-BSD movement in general is no more interested in 'folk' or 'English' anything than your average 1:28.000 consumer. A bit less is more than likely.

At the end of the exercise, the EFDSS will not have addressed the root cause of its problem: too few consumers, of any stripe, know or care about the product.

Marketing will address awareness but unless management accepts the feedback... the product remains the same. Either EFDSS will end up doing the same thing to 'Englandish Folk Art Song & Dance' whatever the British Council did to 'preserve' Jamaican Folk way back when: change it up to something completely different to make it 'accessible' to a wider, commercially viable consumer base... or give it up entirely and just walk away.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 01:28 PM

Deja view... you've been here before but...

The British Council's number one function today is managing the International English Language Testing System (IELTS) which many in the ESG movement consider a modern form of the 1930s fascism the Council was founded to oppose in the firstest place.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 02:42 PM

Although born in Northern Ireland of English parents. I am, since Brexit, more inclined to think of myself as Irish. I am a long time member of EFDSS, I was also a committee member of the now ceased Folk Music Society of Ireland. That Society asserted its Irishness but did not, and nor did its name, preclude it from interest in any other folk music, indeed among its publications was a cassette of French songs.
I favour that EFDSS should change its name to The Folk Song and Dance Society of England - EFDSS has never confined itself to dance and song, folk plays and folk art have always been seen, as they are, indivisible from dance and song. The catch-all Folk Arts is pretty meaningless. And, yes, the challenge is marketing but, since the present name of the Society is seen as an impediment to wider acceptance in the communities, it's a start. The other debate is for another thread.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 03:27 PM

Sounds right enough to me.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 04:44 PM

They will either be awarded a grant or they won't, I can't believe the name makes any difference at all.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: RTim
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 05:05 PM

It is interesting that the EFDSS are only talking about changing the Societies name (I am a member by the way)......and Not changing the name of the Headquarters....ie. Cecil Sharp House.

Here in the USA - particularly at Pinewoods Camp - they are contemplating changing the name of two of the dance pavilions from C# and C#Minor....(to me) a clever way to remember Cecil Sharp, who collected many of the traditions celebrated at camp.

The reasons they are looking to change is because some people think Sharp was a Misogynist and ignored "Black" music while collecting in the Appalachian Mountains.

Personally, I do not agree with these sentiments. I believe he was just a man of his times, and without him we would have lost many songs, dances and traditions...

WE will see what will happen in both cases....and what else would you call them..??

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 05:41 PM

Well Mouldy (as known to friends) has probably come up with an acceptable new name that might tick all those boxes.
Ignoring "the" & "and" it would only use the same five initials
FSDSE = EFDSS.

Incidentally I have an EFDS badge kindly given to me by a lady dancer as a thank you for my involvement in Whitby Folk Week especially the safeguarding of the dance element.

The added "S" in the depths of the thirties depression did little to cause any added costs, but of course the Society was financed in a much different way in those days and certainly had no problems over the word English - which is what I consider myself.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 24 Dec 21 - 12:13 PM

Thanks, Malcolm, for blowing my cover.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 24 Dec 21 - 12:33 PM

Any time old chum - keep safe and well!

I'll get you a drink the next time we are in a bar together.

I missed "of" by the way - hope no one notices.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Rigby
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 06:37 AM

What are the benefits to folk singers of joining the EFDSS or whatever it's going to be called? Especially those who are not in London often enough to make use of the facilities at C# House?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 06:40 AM

"some information for organisers.
To Whom It May Concern
28th September 2021
PUBLIC LIABILITY INSURANCE CERTIFICATE
Valid only if shown with proof of EFDSS membership or affiliation
The Assured: Individual Members of the Society and Affiliated Groups whilst undertaking
activities as notified to the Society, e.g Caller, Folk Club etc
Period of Insurance: 12 months from 31st December 2020
Interest: Insurers will indemnify the Assured against their legal liability for damage,
death, disease or bodily injury up to the indemnity limit hereon in
accordance with the terms, conditions and exceptions of the Policy Wording
Indemnity Limit: £5,000,000 any one occurrence and unlimited in the period. There is an ~~~ as above"

Do I take it that now I have renewed my membership that I have Public liability insurance? Do I need anything else or will it be sent to me? (if needed?)

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 07:26 AM

you need to contact the insurers, but as i understand it your efdss membership will cover you for running an event that does not have more than 500 attendance

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 01:38 PM

The minimal benefits of membership are three issues of English Dance & song and the annual Folk Music Journal; insurance for events involving fewer than 500 people that fall within the Society's Aims and the provisions of the Policy and within geographical limits; plus use of the Library, including certain loans by post, and concessionary entrance to some events - and it's not just London based. There is also Halsworth Manor and activities there. In my case, living in Ireland, I am prepared through my subscription to maintain the building and its facilities and am sure of a welcome when I can get there.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 03:16 PM

"Halsworth Manor". Is that Halsway Manor? What is the relationship between EFDSS and Halsway Manor?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 05:16 PM

I didn't think that there was any connection between the two appart from the fact that prominant EFDSS members such as Bill Rutter were instrumntal in establishing the Halsway Manor Society.

In my journalistic days I used to receive EFDSS press releases. The claim that EFDSS only runs events in London is a myth. Where. pre covid, EFDSS was attempting to deliver value was in teaching teachers and this involved workshops countrywide.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 05:52 PM

Something more inclusive?
Folk song, music and dance for all. Too long?
Folk song and dance for all. Still too long?
Folk song for all. Still too long?
Folk for all. Still too long?
Never mind.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 09:02 PM

Guest Peter obviously worked for the Grynyad - famous for their typos.

Bill Rutter actually worked for the Society and as far as I am aware was never a paying member of the Society.

It would seem that the definition of what constitutes running a folk event might be the next thing to have a long a totally wasteful / meaningless discussion on.

What the Society needs in either my humble opinion or just my opinion is some doers rather than what my dad used to term "gunners" - people who were gunner do this or gunner do that but never did either.

Henry missed the obvious one
F--k All. Spot on!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Dec 21 - 06:48 AM

What are these events outside London? If there are any they are not very effective in letting people know about them, and considering this is one of the most frequent criticisms you'd think they'd do more to publicise those they are involved with.

Most events outside London (and many in it) are organised by volunteers, who run the network of folk clubs, dances and festivals that the folk scene relies upon, and where many of the professional artists the EFDSS promotes earn their livings. They are sometimes supported by regional groups, again mostly led by volunteers. This is what I mean by the grass roots, and in my experience the EFDSS offers little in the way of support and advice to them. My own organisation is affiliated in order to obtain PLI, although we could obtain this elsewhere, but when I tried to contact them for advice on a particular topic they didn't help.

The excellent Halsway Manor is an entirely independent organisation and a charity in its own right.

The EFDSS is very involved in education, and there may be events outside London through the Folk Education Network - not being a teacher or educator I wouldn't know. However this is of little interest to those who are not teachers or workshop leaders. There seems to be very little for adult learners who cannot regularly attend C# House. Of course education is important in itself, but I wonder how many schoolchildren who are introduced to folk through the FEN go on to maintain an interest and involvement?

I'm glad John Moulden is sure of a welcome when he visits the House. On both occasions when I visited the place was like the Marie Celeste, and almost the only people visible were external groups who had hired rehearsal space. The shop was poorly stocked and was frankly disappointing. Admittedly that was several decades ago and perhaps it's better now, but I've not been tempted to return.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mo the caller
Date: 26 Dec 21 - 09:16 AM

"
Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett - PM
......

Do I take it that now I have renewed my membership that I have Public liability insurance? Do I need anything else or will it be sent to me? (if needed?)

Ray

I think now you need to tell them that you want insurance, and what you do (e.g. caller, club organiser, etc.)

My gripe is that they don't always sort out the insurance cover soon enough, in the past I found that I'd been uninsured for months. A year or so back there was a hassle about the only unpaid activity counting, which they changed after howls of protest from people who occasionally take paid gigs (could we count our expenses as on tax returns?). Now I think they are in negotiation again, so once again I may not know till after I've renewed.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Peter Cripps
Date: 26 Dec 21 - 10:09 AM

If the excellent(IMHO)suggestion for the new name - "Folk All" was adopted, it would be very inclusive, and C# House could be renamed Folk Hall!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 26 Dec 21 - 10:22 AM

Would excuse "them" for doing Folk All!!
What about "All Folking About"?
Even more inclusive?
It is of course Cecil Sharp House currently and not the well used abbreviation.
Even adopting the well used abbreviation has its problems.
1 What would one do with ecils harp?
2 # is now an abbreviation for number for some reason.

The field is open to enter any or all other problems.
Fill your boots!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 26 Dec 21 - 01:30 PM

Thanks Mo the caller ~ my folk activities are normally acting as a emcee at the likes of Whitby, Saltburn and Warwick (in the past) Whitby ff had certain PL issues and I was told that public house insurance was not necessarily to relied upon nor their own PL insurance (Whitby in particular) but EFDSS membership conferred a sufficient level of Public liability insurance

I received the above pasted statement as above from Sandman when I renewed my EFDSS membership, once again!

Now I am confused ~ are EFDDSS saying that they are wishing to tighten up on the coverage and that a blanket approach is not acceptable and that specific sort of gig PL needs to be spelled out on all occasions ~ looks like a hornets nest to me ~ ££?


Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Dec 21 - 03:13 PM

ray, ring the insurers

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 26 Dec 21 - 03:20 PM

With all the respect that is due to the belittlers, the gripers and complainers, I'd suggest that organisations that make ANY attempt to sustain or extend any of the arts of the people are so few that anybody with a serious or even passing interest should be doing everything in their power to make them more effective. Again, with the respect that is due, I'd suggest that if you don't like how an organisation in which you might have an interest is run, you should get in there and be an instrument for its change. EFDSS has resources that could be more effectively used but no resource is more useful than active members - join and act. And, I suggest too that the complainers take a look at the membership of the Board and that of the editorial board of the Journal - every one is active, every one is committed - get in there and do your bit - too many seem to me to use the criterion, what's in it for me before they consider how could I help? EFDSS has influence - use your influence on it.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 26 Dec 21 - 05:52 PM

John - The problem at the moment is that it would be extremely difficult for individual members to be effective. The powers that be seem not to want members gumming up the works - just their money.
I wrote well over a month ago to the treasurer asking for any thoughts on how much a change of name might cost - a fairly basic question I would have thought and certainly not one to cause offence.
I have yet to receive an acknowledgement, let alone an answer.
At about the same time but separately I asked a question of the membership department which could mean me not renewing my membership - not deliberately - as yet again no answer.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 26 Dec 21 - 05:55 PM

Ray -
There was never a problem with Public Liability Insurance during my involvement with Whitby so am I to assume this is a recent thing?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Dec 21 - 07:24 PM

John makes a fair point about getting involved rather than carping from the sidelines, but I agree with Malcolm that there seems to be very few ways an individual member can become actively involved, and there is nothing on the website to suggest this would even be encouraged.

I have to confess all but one of the trustees is unfamiliar to me. Having googled a few of the others, many of them seem to have backgrounds in the arts and no doubt bring valuable skills and expertise, but I don't see much evidence of active involvement in folk music. Perhaps I am wrong, I haven't delved that deeply. I don't question their commitment, simply the direction they have chosen to take the Society.

The issue with insurance is that with only a few days to go before the year end they have apparently not yet agreed the renewal of the policy and are not yet able to issue certificates. Anyone relying on its PLI who has a New Year's Eve gig would be well advised to contact the insurers to see if they will be covered after midnight.

There was a rumpus a couple of years ago when they announced changes to the policy, with very little notice and part-way through the year, which removed PLI cover for performers who were paid more than expenses and for events which charged more than their immediate costs. This effectively removed cover from most of those who are most likely to actually need it, and left some professional performers without PLI in the middle of the festival season, and potentially in breach of their own contracts. After an outcry this was reversed, but not before many had been forced to take out cover elsewhere. Not only was the announcement of the change handled very badly, it showed an appalling lack of awareness of or interest in the sort of activities their members are doing.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 03:16 AM

Malcolm times and attitudes re H &S have changed and the PLI situation was explained to me by Barry Evans

As Howard says above renewal terms are yet to be finalised ~ I will watch this space ~ it seems of course that many festivals have had difficulty with insurance in these Covid times ~ I do not know which Insurer EFDSS have their arrangements!

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 05:53 AM

EFDSS's insurance broker is Bryan James, I don't know who the actual policy is with. I know from experience that they are happy to deal with individual queries.

Cover is limited to events of no more than 500 people, so most festivals would have to arrange their own insurance. Event coverage is intended for things like dance and song clubs. Cover for individuals is probably aimed at amateur and semi-professional performers. Full-time pros are not currently excluded but would need to decide for themselves if it is adequate for their purposes.

The problem with the proposed change in 2019 is that it did not allow the event to charge more than was needed to cover its costs. Many regular events aim to make a surplus, although this is retained to run future events and not kept by the organisers as profit. The intention may have been to exclude only events run on a commercial basis for profit, but the wording was unclear and even contradictory. Thankfully they changed it following protests.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 06:49 AM

Ray
I'll carry on sucking this egg shall I?
At the time I was involved with Whitby we arranged not only PL cover but also equipment cover for performers and cover for hired in items such as toilet and shower blocks for the campsites.
I expect that the only problem / change to purchase the necessary cover would be the increase in cost.
We also took H & S issues very seriously.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 07:12 AM

It's not usually difficult to obtain PLI cover from an insurance broker, and it's not necessary to rely on EFDSS cover. However for amateur and semi-professional (and many professional) performers a block policy like this is probably the most affordable. For many individuals and organisations the insurance is a significant benefit, and perhaps the main reason they are members.

I am involved with running a series of ceilidhs, and we affiliated to EFDSS in order to obtain PLI. We could have got this elsewhere, but our choice was partly so that the EFDSS could benefit. If they had not reversed the 2019 changes we would have left and gone elsewhere. The ceilidh band I play in does not use EFDSS for its PLI, we get it through a broker for less than the cost of affiliation.

A festival on the scale of Whitby clearly has requirements which go way beyond what the EFDSS cover can provide.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 07:59 AM

RAY The insurers are listed on the efdss website

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 08:01 AM

ray insurers
contact Bryan James: [e-mail], telephone [phone]

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 09:20 AM

I think the point is missed!

Yes I am not a "professional" paid artist ~ I rely on what I am advised by those who should know

I do not want to pay anything ~ I do NOT want to contact an insurer ~ I have assumed that Whitby ff and EFDSS have agreed that members who dance and singers and musicians are covered in a blanket arrangement ~ if not what IS the position

Yes Malcolm eggs are good for you

Ray
Barnsley Longword I am told do have their own PLI insurance!

Iam not happy to pay OWT!!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 02:20 PM

Ray, I believe the position is that if you are a member of EFDSS then you are covered by their current insurance policy until the end of the year. You can see what is covered by downloading the Guidance notes from the Insurance section of their website, but it is pretty broad and should cover any MCing you do at folk events. The restrictions I mentioned which they tried to impose in 2019 were abandoned after complaints from members.

Hopefully this will be renewed for 2022, but the website says "The members’ insurance certificate for 2022 is in preparation and will be available later in December." They still have a few more days to sort it out. I assume it will provide similar cover to the current policy but this will need to be checked when it is issued.

If you will be MCing or engaging in a folk activity over the New Year period, and if they haven't posted the new certificate by then, it is possible that you won't be covered. This is probably only a theoretical concern, and assuming it is simply a delay with the paperwork my guess is that they would probably honour a claim during this period. However the only way to be certain, if a certificate isn't issued in time, would be to speak to Bryan James.

If you have a household insurance policy you may find that this also provides you with public liability cover.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 07:42 PM

Ray
When I first got involved in the running of Whitby Folk Week in 1982 it was still a Society festival and as such all surpluses were the Society's. Responsibility for Public Liability Insurance and licensing rested with the Society.
In that first year the gang of four Edmund Jenkinson, Graham Pirt, Trevor Stone, Malcolm Storey returned a surplus to the Society in excess of the turnover for the 1981 festival - several thousand pounds.
The situation changed after the 1985 event when Nibs Matthews retired as Artistic Director of the Society and Jim Lloyd became the Director with a shift towards a more rigid business ethic - something which some, including myself, welcomed. Jim did a good job of bringing the running of the Society into a more modern era but one of his improvements was to announce that he wished to see Society festivals donate any surpluses to the Society but to absorb any losses themselves.
Edmund Jenkinson and I were by this time the joint volunteer directors of Whitby Folk Week and as such could not accept that - and why should we?
Fairly amicable discussions led to us taking the festival forward as an independent entity. For a number of years we did offer a discount to society members as gesture of goodwill.
We quickly discovered that when it came to the PL and other issues we had been largely relying on something that might not have been true but probably not deliberately so.
We therefore put in place measures to meet our responsibilities. Edmund was offered a conditional (give up Whitby) directorship with his employers, a major civil engineering company, about the time of that 1986 festival after which we parted company extremely amicably and remained good friends until his untimely death.
You seem to feel that there is some agreement between the current WFW team and the EFDSS regarding insurances but I would think that difficult to conceive - especially with the 500 limit on attendances. I stand to be corrected on that but not by you.

Finally I'm pleased to see you are a still a devout Yorkshireman - especially when it comes to the first commandment.
Pay Nowt and then only grudgingly!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 07:53 PM

John
Just a thought - the Society went a long way towards doing away with member involvement when it demolished the District Committee, Area Council structure and at the same time got rid of Sales Points.
I am not by nature a committee person but still persevered at all levels and participated in some very much member led enjoyable and successful initiatives.
And what happened to National Folk Day?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 28 Dec 21 - 03:30 AM

Thanks Howard and Malcolm ~ time will tell

For the record I see no advantage, indeed nowt but confusion with a name change away from EFDSS ~ it is what is being done and can be done to improve and increase participation and help in all aspects of dance music and song

The "professionals" seem to have advanced by need to make a living, their "place of employment" certainly away from the "folk clubs" ~ what everyone is looking for is a paying listening audience ~ a move towards festivals providing Workshops in all aspects ~ maybe?

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 21 - 06:23 AM

Consignia, anyone ?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 28 Dec 21 - 06:30 AM

Ray - I'm with you on the name change fiasco. A nonsensical waste of time and resources and potentially money down the drain.
As far as I know the Society has no direct involvement with any festivals although it does seek the occasional free ride to sell its wares.
Most of the established smaller dance festivals offer lots of workshops but tend to be blessed with an ageing audience.
The two largest festivals already offer a plethora of workshops of all kinds as well as a heavy commitment to involving children - it's the teens to forties (when we started!) that is not by and large being attracted.
The Society outside of London seems to be largely aiming at schools and the like.
Its song initiatives tend to focus on new works by a chosen few.
There is certainly no sign of the buzz expression "levelling up" within the Society.

I remember being offered a trip to a brand new medieval castle once when in Spain. Some people went twice!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Dec 21 - 08:41 AM

Any organisation which receives government funding has to meet certain standards of governance and behaviour. This includes an emphasis on diversity, in a praiseworthy attempt to ensure that everyone in society is able to participate and is not excluded by unintentional as well as intentional bias.

The EFDSS appears to have decided that the term "English" has negative connotations for some and must be therefore be eradicated in order to show it is open to all. This seems to me to present a problem for an organisation whose principal purpose is to promote and preserve English folk music. However that may not be the point, a name change which apparently removes this objection can be shown to have ticked this particular box. This may appease those who feel their sense of personal identity is excluded by the term "English", but what about those who feel their own sense of personal identity will have been chipped away a little bit more?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 21 - 09:18 AM

Sorry to shout but it's a paste from the Charity Commission web site:

Charitable objects:

2.1.1 TO PRESERVE ENGLISH FOLK DANCES AND SONGS AND OTHER FOLK MUSIC (INCLUDING SINGING GAMES), FOLK TALES AND FOLK DRAMA, TO MAKE THEM KNOWN AND TO ENCOURAGE THE PRACTICE OF THEM IN THEIR ORIGINAL FORMS; 2.1.2 TO PROMOTE THE KNOWLEDGE AND PRACTICE OF ENGLISH FOLK DANCES, SONGS AND MUSIC, TALES AND DRAMA BY MEANS OF DANCES, SCHOOLS CLASSES , EXAMINATIONS, LECTURES, DEMONSTRATIONS, FESTIVALS AND OTHER LIKE METHODS; 2.2.3 TO PROMOTE AND ENCOURAGE RESEARCH INTO AND STUDY OF THE ORIGINS DEVELOPMENT AND TRADITIONAL PRACTICE OF ENGLISH FOLK DANCES, SONGS AND MUSIC TALES AND DRAMA AND THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THOSE OF OTHER COUNTRIES.


I read that as being specifically 'English', with 'other folk music' meaning other English folk music.


https://register-of-charities.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-search/-/charity-details/305999/charity-overview

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 21 - 09:22 AM

Meant to add, as well as the focus of 'English' the "...AND TO ENCOURAGE THE PRACTICE OF THEM IN THEIR ORIGINAL FORMS" is explicit.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 28 Dec 21 - 09:27 AM

Well spotted that person!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 07:49 AM

Guest (28th December) says that he/she reads 'that as being specifically 'English', with 'other folk music' meaning other English folk music.'

But, as I said earlier on, the Society has never limited itself just to English folk (song/dance/customs etc) as this sentence says, 'AND THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THOSE OF OTHER COUNTRIES.'

I have always seen the EFDSS as being 'English' only in the sense that it is based in England. Unfortunately, we are living through a very nationalistic period (what are all those Union Flags doing behind Government Ministers whenever they appear on TV?) and this proposed change in name belongs to a similar mind-set.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 08:24 AM

English is a language - connotations of things other than customs
England is geography/the people - a better fit.

Folk Arts will always be abbreviated, portmanteaued, pesudonymed - talk about coonotations! If the corporate identity of EFDSS needs a re-boot, the name is an obvious start. It has nothing to do with logic, it is all about the perception of the wider public. The hope is that it would draw more people to be interested and for the organisation - join. But get it right ................ second chances are available but counter-productive.
Fakebook tried it and have endured derision, not least from me.

Yes, Yes, you can change the operating methodology and hope people will notice, and then change the name. But as a percentage shot, it is next to zero, even in the long term.

For EFDSS to have relevance it needs people, and more than at present IMNSHO. Don't forget, Bob Dylan et al were the fashion for the yoof of the 60s and that created waves amongst the old guard. Are we ready for today's yoof and their interpretation of Folk? Perhaps we should tut-tut knowingly, and they will come in droves! Such is the way of things.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 08:40 AM

To me Folk Arts means corn dollies and graffiti.

Robin

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST, 28 Dec 21 - 09:22 AM
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 09:20 AM

I quoted the charitable objects because they probably set out what the organisation regarded itself as being about the last time it formally reviewed its aims. Charitable objects can be changed to fit with changing times. For a membership organisation the Charity Commission may want to know that the members agree.

The "Folk Arts" (arts plural, so arguably not 'Folk Art' or 'Folk Crafts') part of the suggested name seems a reasonable fit for "...FOLK DANCES, SONGS AND MUSIC, TALES AND DRAMA".

But I read 'English' as being used in a geographic ethnomusicological sense, as if maybe it stems for Sharpe's 'English national music' ideas.

What isn't clear to me is where musicians who don't also have a day job or who present newly written tunes via broadcast media come into the charitable objects.

On the one hand I think it would be a shame if the focus of the VWML became much wider than England - there are other places to that focus on the music of other people and places. On the other hand (a) a lot of the 'folk' in England now have other musical heritages and (b) it would be a pity if someone wanting to, say, put on a Breton bal or organise Bulgarian singing workshop was prevented from using EFDSS resources (or the results of it's negotiations with an insurance broker) because the aims were too parochially English.

It would seem odd to change the name without updating the charitable objects.

jag

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 10:03 AM

Yes English can convey England as a Nation as well as English as a Language ~ Welsh and Scottish and Irish can also be similarly described ~ England as a base fine, but without with the other common "Nationalistic" connotations obviously ~ and covering music songs and dance found in our Islands and groups

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 11:02 AM

The charitable objects also include "and other folk music", so its scope does go beyond just English music. Nevertheless it seems clear that is where its focus should lie.

I think it's probably broad enough for a bal to be covered by EFDSS insurance. However if I were running an club formed expressly to put on events of non-English folk I think I would want to seek confirmation from the insurers.

It's not clear whether the name change also represents a change of direction (or perhaps consolidation of an existing direction) or whether it's simply window-dressing to avoid using the E-word and to demonstrate "inclusiveness".

In particular, it's not clear whether the new name signifies an intention to represent the traditions of other cultures which now make up a significant part of our society. The Society seems to prefer "English" to mean "in England" rather than "belonging to England", so that seems possible. On the one hand, these are now part of English society and therefore part of contemporary English folk arts. On the other, these communities may prefer that the safeguarding of their traditions is best left in their own hands.

No one thinks it wrong that Comhaltas concentrates on Irish traditional music, or that other communities should want to preserve their own traditions, indeed this is seen as something to be encouraged. Why then should the English tradition be treated differently? It is probably more at risk than many of these other traditions, since most English people have forgotten about it, and it is at best ignored and and worst ridiculed. I would feel very let down if the EFDSS decided this is no longer important.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,28 Dec 21 - 09:22 AM
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 11:44 AM

I think as it's placed in that sentence 'other folk music' is more likely to be there to include English folk music other than songs. If not English folk music other than songs is not included. In the other objects it is condensed to "ENGLISH FOLK DANCES, SONGS AND MUSIC, TALES AND DRAMA" and in the last one that is distinguished from "THOSE OF OTHER COUNTRIES"

If by 'other folk music" they meant the folk music of other countries then I think, given the name of the charity, they should/would have said that.

If that's what's meant (now, whatever it meant before) there is no reason to rely on a possible ambiguity, they could just change it to be more explicit. Though since they have members I think the trustees would have to ask the members' views. And I bet some would not agree...

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 12:49 PM

"Please also be assured that our continuing use of the word FOLK is not up for negotiation!"
Then they are wasting their time.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 02:56 PM

Please Guest above explain what you mean, thanks

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 03:56 PM

Folk as a music term has become totally meaningless, in my opinion. Comhaltas in Ireland and the TMSA in Scotland both seem to successfully exist without it. See also a current discussion.
Maybe doesn't mean anything, but just for fun I went to eBay, category music and typed in folk. The first 6 results were as follows :
Clannad - Kate Rusby - Joan Baez [ so far, so good ], followed by Nik Kershaw, Kylie Minogue and Eva Cassidy. That's what some people associate with the term folk.
If people aren't aware of EFDSS, why are they going to be aware of it if it is called something else ? A turd called a rose is still a turd.
I'm reminded of the American comedian Bill Hicks, who would stop in the middle of his act and say to his audience something like :
"I would just like to say at this point, that if you work in advertising, or marketing, please - go kill yourself. This is not a joke, there is no punchline, I will now get back to the show".

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 04:08 PM

From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 11:02 AM
"In particular, it's not clear whether the new name signifies an intention to represent the traditions of other cultures which now make up a significant part of our society. The Society seems to prefer "English" to mean "in England" rather than "belonging to England", so that seems possible. On the one hand, these are now part of English society and therefore part of contemporary English folk arts. On the other, these communities may prefer that the safeguarding of their traditions is best left in their own hands.
No one thinks it wrong that Comhaltas concentrates on Irish traditional music, or that other communities should want to preserve their own traditions, indeed this is seen as something to be encouraged. Why then should the English tradition be treated differently? It is probably more at risk than many of these other traditions, since most English people have forgotten about it, and it is at best ignored and and worst ridiculed. I would feel very let down if the EFDSS decided this is no longer important."

To an extent hybridisation is already being encouraged by EFDSS. They have sponsored various groups (do I remember a Morris team working with Ballet students to put on a performance / Fok dancers and Street dancers) Can't find anything on the website, though the first page is interesting.. No mention of English unless you scroll a long way down,and a big thing about diversity & inclusiveness.

It's an interesting question, how much we should try to keep styles separate and 'traditional' (which often means 'how I was taught it x years ago) or should we welcome change. Some may 'tut' when people who enjoy twirling in Zesty Contra then start twirling in Playford back-to-backs.
So many folk tunes crop up almost the same from different parts of Europe.
Was there ever such a thing as 'English Folk'?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mo the caller
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 04:30 PM

I seem to have logged out. The last post was me.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 04:45 PM

Was there ever such a thing as 'English Folk'? yes and there is a book called the penguin book of english folk songs, and a new penguin book of english folk songs, edited by steve roud and julia bishop, and guess what it contains english folk songs, and surprise surprise not fecking buddy holly

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 04:46 PM

I'm glad that following my blast, the conversation has been taken up by people with knowledge, interest and intent. As I said, I live in Ireland and I've enough to do but, I do know some of the people who are on the Board and will begin a chat with them - calling their attention to this thread as a start. It's likely I don't know enough about the politics of 'folk' in England so I'll desist unless I'm asked to lend a bit of weight. However, Howard's reference to Comhaltas and people not minding that it confines itself to Irish music needs a bit of argument - Comhaltas is a deeply nationalistic, deeply conservative organisation with a highly authoritarian governance structure and, while at grass roots it has some influence, its influence on Irish music in general has been pretty negative. As Breandán Breathnach said in 1978 "Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann is an organisation with a great future behind it"

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mo the caller
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 05:17 PM

"....book called the penguin book of english folk songs, and a new penguin book of english folk songs, edited by steve roud and julia bishop, and guess what it contains english folk songs"

Or maybe it contains folk songs sung in England.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 07:50 PM

The very first song I sang before an audience was with a pal of mine at a works do competition.
We did a fair rendition of the Everley Brothers number "Dream" and carried off the second prize.
I was and still am a great fan of Buddy Holly (leave him alone Dick) and was lucky enough to see him live when in his pomp. I have never sung any of his songs to an audience.
My mother who had a lovely voice persuaded me to sing to the joanna in one of the local pubs and I enjoyed that - especially when other people asked me for requests.
Other venues followed but once I started singing in Folk Clubs that part of my song activities ceased apart from leading the community singing at Rugby Club events.
Times change and societies have to live with that but that does not mean it is wrong to remember and preserve things from the past which are part of our culture.
To go through a meaningless and potentially expensive exercise to perhaps tick an extra box to help fill the begging bowl to protect the odd meaningless job or two is not the way to do it.
John Moulden hopes that the people he knows on the board might take some interest in this thread - but I very much doubt it.
"They" always know best - ask Boris the Buffoon.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: matt milton
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 05:50 AM

"No one thinks it wrong that Comhaltas concentrates on Irish traditional music, or that other communities should want to preserve their own traditions, indeed this is seen as something to be encouraged. Why then should the English tradition be treated differently?"

I think eventually, as years go by, the remit of Comhaltas will be increasingly questioned.
In the meantime, it is secure largely because Irish music and dance makes a lot of money. If England had it's equivalent of Riverdance, or if English sessions had become a cultural export as globally successful as the Irish session then I think the EFDSS probably would be in a very different position (and probably wouldn't need funding so badly).

EFDSS, as pointed out above, already has many hybrid/collaborative events, already features folk arts (visual arts, drama etc) as a peripheral part of its activity, and already hosts folk music events from other cultures (eg London Bulgarian choir).

I suspect increasing amounts of this is inevitable and actually to be desired. This isn't just about funding, it's about people and culture over time.

That doesn't imply that the EFDSS set themselves up as an authority or a spokesperson for those other musics - it clearly doesn't have the funding or resources or expertise to do that even if it wanted to.

But an EFDSS that focuses on English folk music while also hosting and promoting events and programmes that include "immigrant" folkloric traditions (eg calypso, Central and Eastern European traditions, Latin American music) alongside English trad events strikes me as a positive way forward.

It already does a bit of that anyway and whatever the stated aims are and whether or not it prefers 'of/from England' over 'English' that's how I suspect it'll go.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 05:59 AM

John, with respect you seem to have misunderstood my point. No doubt Comhaltas can be criticised for many things. What it is unlikely to be criticised for is not being "diverse" enought because it does not encourage the playing of music from other traditions. It is understood and accepted that its purpose is to encourage traditional Irish music (how well it does this is not the point here).

It is this quest for "diversity" that I fear is behind the proposed name change. I have a sense that the very idea of focussing on "Englishness" is seen as exclusionary and therefore suspect, whereas a minority community focussing on its own culture would be encouraged. I think it is entirely proper that there should be an organisation dedicated to the promotion and preservation of English folk music, and it should not flinch from saying that is what it does.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 06:26 AM

Mo, I am not suggesting that English folk exists in a vacuum. It shares much of its repertoire with the rest of the UK and Ireland, as well as taking influences from elsewhere. Nevertheless that does not mean there is no such thing as English folk music. It has its own distinctive styles, even when performing music which may have originated elswhere.

Neither am I opposed to EFDSS encouraging cross-over collaborations. I don't believe folk music should be preserved in aspic, it should be explored and enjoyed. I am certainly guilty of "taking liberties" with it: my band's version of the Rochdale Coconut Dance was described as "starts in Lancashire and moves ever rapidly eastwards, finishing somewhere near Chicago" although one reviewer said "I reckon it's more like New Orleans". However you should always keep in mind the core tradition. I can't help feeling that EFDSS is a little too keen to promote these collaborations and doesn't do enough to encourage the performance of basic English folk.

However there is a difference between music from elsewhere being assimilated into English traditions and English styles of performance, and the folk music of the other immigrant cultures who are now part of our society which are now performed in England. I am not for a moment suggesting this music is of any less value, or that those communities should not be regarded as English or British, simply that is not what the term "English folk music" means. I question whether it is EFDSS's role to promote this music as well, and whether those communities would actually want it to.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 09:16 AM

Interesting stuff from Howard ~and yes "folk" music and dance and song has existed largely in parallel with the world of EFDSS whatever that does encompass for many years and no doubt has its own merit and following

EFDSS can and does do a fine job in promoting its aims and objectives and perhaps was and still is a leader in English folk dance and its events certainly around Sheffield such as "Sound post" and other workshop events ~ it seems to be very active in encouraging the young people in folk activities ~ and good luck to them

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 09:26 AM

Soundpost does excellent work, but it is an independent community arts organisation run by a number of musicians from the Sheffield folk community. Nothing to do with EFDSS.

https://soundpost.org.uk/about

It is just one of many local organisations which have stepped into the breach since EFDSS closed its regional branches.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 09:42 AM

"EFDSS can and does do a fine job in promoting its aims and objectives"

Maybe, but what it promotes seems to be concentrated in a few niche areas, and with a strong London bias. Do you have examples of events or activities away from London which are run by EFDSS (and not by local organisations such as Soundpost).

"perhaps was and still is a leader in English folk dance"

I'm not sure what you mean by "leader". As I see it, social dance and ceilidh are in the hands of local clubs. These may be affiliated members of EFDSS for the insurance, but speaking as an organiser of one I can say that they provide them with very little support. When I have asked EFDSS for advice they have either been unable to help or have ignored me.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,28 Dec 21 - 09:22 AM
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 09:55 AM

Soundpost looks good. I see EFDSS is one of several sponsors. Digging around led me to this: https://www.efdss.org/images/present/Docs/Library/DiversityConference2021ProgrammeWWW.pdf

which seemed to touch on many aspects relevant to this discussion. For example I think many would regard shanties as part of 'English folk music' but, as discussed in great detail on mudcat at times, it's really not that simple.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 10:55 AM

Thanks again Howard Jones ~ this puts me straight of course ~ and EFDSS in a different light

Does The Society not offer certain grants to specific organisations?

and yes I do know of VWML but I am, as I said earlier unlikely to make that particular trip!

Name change is even more of a low priority and the accent on its core activities much more important ~ BUT maybe I have the cart before the horse with EFDSS perceived as simply an organisation to provide expertise and advice to established groups?

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 11:01 AM

EFDSS does seem to run and support activities largely at Cecil Sharp House (in normal times)

Was and I am surprised to see that Halsway Manor is also a separate concern though no doubt encouraged by EFDSS ~ wrong again?

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 12:28 PM

I'm sure the EFDSS does give financial support to some organisations, although it is far from clear what it does or who benefits. It is one of several organisations shown as supporters of Soundpost, for example, although what this involves is not clear.

It also offers bursaries to developing artists and supports a number of specific projects, which are shown on its website.

In my experience it doesn't offer much support, financial or otherwise, to small grass-roots organisations. When I tried to contact it with a query about GDPR (which would affect any folk club with a membership list) I was ignored. Other organisations I am involved with provide extensive resources to assist club committee members, EFDSS provides next to nothing, and what there is can be difficult to find.

It recently offered micro-grants to dance clubs to get re-started post-Covid, but the "artspeak" language used in the application form suggested you would need to be familiar with making grant applications and the appropriate formulations in order to be successful. It was necessary to show how the grant would be used attract disadvantaged people - a worthy objective but not a priority at a time when it was difficult to attract anyone, and when holding an event at all was highly uncertain and with considerable financial risk. Presumably some clubs were successful, but my own was put off from even applying by the language and conditions attached.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 12:42 PM

"It was necessary to show how the grant would be used attract disadvantaged people"

Maybe that was something to do with how they got the funds

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 01:10 PM

There is no excuse for not trying if one has the ability.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Brian Peters
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 01:24 PM

I'm surprised that a couple of comments by Mo the Caller haven't received more comment.

'So many folk tunes crop up almost the same from different parts of Europe... Was there ever such a thing as 'English Folk'?

And, regarding 'Folk Song in England', that 'it contains folk songs sung in England' as opposed to 'English folk songs'.

There is certainly some overlap between historic English and European dance music repertoire, and there are the parallels F. J. Child recognized between Anglo-Scottish and European ballads and folk tales, but I know of no evidence that the English folk song repertoire closely resembles a comparable repertoire on the continent, even if we discount the obvious language barrier. Are tunes from, say, the 'Dives and Lazarus' family widespread throughout Europe? Perhaps they are - please enlighten me.

There is much more overlap in terms of folk song and dance music between England, Scotland and Ireland, but are you suggesting no distinction can be drawn between those repertoires and styles? You might encounter some objections from across the border, or the Irish Sea...

Both books titled 'Folk Song in England' - Lloyd/RVW and Roud/Bishop - are based on a repertoire of songs written mostly by mostly anonymous but almost certainly English composers, and passed down generationally in England. Shanties are definitely a multi-cultural phenomenon, but then they arose in an environment of geographical and racial mixing, which (again historically) isn't true of most of the repertoire in England.

Where we go from here is another matter. Nick Griffin's unwelcome attentions aside, nationalism has played no prominent role in English folk music since the days of Cecil Sharp. I'm fine with EFDSS involving itself with more diverse acts, and nor do I have a stonewall preference for 'English' over 'of England' - even though I doubt whether such a fine adjustment in terminology will actually attract anyone who wasn't attracted before. 'Folk Arts', to me doesn't adequately describe what EFDSS does, nor what I'm interested in, and this all looks to me like a rebranding exercise aimed simply at disposing of a name some of those involved find cumbersome and anachronistic.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 01:36 PM

Wot Brian said! Fully endorsed.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 02:28 PM

In response to my statement "It was necessary to show how the grant would be used attract disadvantaged people" 'Guest' responded "Maybe that was something to do with how they got the funds"

Quite possibly. Diversity and inclusion are a big issue these days, and is clearly a priority for EFDSS. Quite rightly - I entirely support the principle. However it was the timing that was inappropriate - we were just emerging from lockdown and activities were resuming but many people were still strangely reluctant to get close to and be breathed on by a group of strangers.

We were trying to put on an event with no certainty that anyone would turn up (in normal times we could expect up to 80 or 100). Our concerns were people's safety and the potential for a substantial financial loss. Assistance with covid security measures and an underwriting of any financial loss might have helped. In more normal times we might have gladly considered ways to help more disadvantaged people to attend our events, for example by being able to offer concessions, but it was not what we needed to focus on at the time.

The offer was well-intended to address a real need to get people dancing again, but the conditions and language used did not to me seem to understand the circumstances facing small unfunded volunteer-led community groups. I hope some groups were able to take advantage of it, but we were put off by it.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 02:54 PM

I agree with Brian, and especially his final paragraph. I can't shake of a feeling that at least part of the motivation for this is a desire to fit in with the mainstream arts world, and that the current name is seen as a bit of an embarrassment. I also wonder whether that is where the perceived barriers lie, rather than among people who actually might want to get involved.

What worries me about this is that the arts establishment has always given the impression that arts should be left in the hands of the professionals for the rest of us to consume, rather than be encouraged to participate ourselves. That is the opposite of what folk music is, and what EFDSS should be for.

The other thing that worries me is that the 'consultation' seems to have been designed to justify a decision which has already been made. No one from the EFDSS seems to be willing to engage in the debate.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 05:01 PM

but then they arose in an environment of geographical and racial mixing, which (again historically) isn't true of most of the repertoire in England. quote Brian Peters
Interesting.. The Bonny labouring Boy source Harry Cox was learned fron an Itinerant Irish Labourer,
Also some of the fishing songs [not shanties]were learned because of travelling fishermen between Scotland Ireland England

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 03:04 AM

But I read 'English' as being used in a geographic ethnomusicological sense, as if maybe it stems for Sharpe's 'English national music' ideas.

You can read it any which way you want. The exercise of a name change is to inculcate something meaningful to the wider public! And good luck with that.

Anyone remember the advert for Strand cigarettes? Powerful, well crafted with haunting music, everyone noticed it. And they missed the one thing that the buying public reacted to. That to fetch out a packet correlated with being a lonely middle-aged git. Correlation ain't causation, sure - tell that to the wider public.

And bar-room jocularity is your clue folks.

An acronym like F.A.M.E.D would go a long way, anyone care to fill in the gaps............

Folk A____ Music E______ Dance (Endeavour perhaps)

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 03:39 AM

"What worries me about this is that the arts establishment has always given the impression that arts should be left in the hands of the professionals for the rest of us to consume, rather than be encouraged to participate ourselves. That is the opposite of what folk music is, and what EFDSS should be for."

Important statement in my view!

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 05:04 AM

English Music and Periferal Activity for Today's Youth (EMPATHY)?

Robin

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Brian Peters
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 06:39 AM

Like Ray, I fully agree with Howard about consumption versus participation.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mo the caller
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 08:39 AM

Brian, my "Was there ever such a thing as 'English' Folk" was a question rather than a statement.
I know more about dance than song, though I have noticed in music sessions, tunes that I think of as English cropping up from Sweden, or Wales.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mo the caller
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 08:42 AM

Some of the professional performers are very generous in encouraging participations at all levels.
E.g. at my favourite week of the year, in Whitby.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 04:22 PM

An emailshot from EFDSS about events coming up in the New Year refers at one point to "EDFFS". Merely a typo or yet another possible name?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 04:55 PM

English Dance Forget Folk Song

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 05:22 AM

Mo, the folk scene is built around participation and many professional folk performers are very generous with their time and advice. This was not what my comment was referring to.

The mainstream arts world has tended to focus on supporting the professional arts. Whereas a considerable amount of public funding is available to encourage participation in sport, the same doesn't seem to be true of the arts. Whilst there are some signs that this is changing, it is still limited. I note that whilst funding is to be made available to community groups to develop creative and cultural activities as part of the Queen’s Platinum Jubilee celebrations later this year, they are expected to engage with Arts Council approved 'creatives', so really this is just disguised support for professionals.

EFDSS clearly wants to be taken seriously in this world. Its emphasis on professional artist development, education, crossover projects and the development of new work (rather than folk in its original forms) all seems aimed to tick the required boxes. In fairness, knowing how to engage with the arts establishment has enabled it to secure the Arts Council funding for the Full English project, so credit where due. I have no objection to it doing any of this work, provided it does not mean that the grass-roots participatory side of folk is not even more neglected than it is at present.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mo the caller
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 07:11 AM

Funny old world. The was a time when things )sport etc) were divided into Professionals and Gentlemen, with the pros regarded as servants (like a ceilidh band at a wedding still sometimes are). Now there are Professionals and Amateurs with amateurs sometimes looked down on, though their skills can be high.
I see your point Howard. I'm just rambling at a tangent.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 12:16 PM

"You can read it** any which way you want. The exercise of a name change is to inculcate something meaningful to the wider public! And good luck with that."

** "it" being the use of the word English in EFDSS's charitable objects.

No, we can't read it any way we wish. We should read it how the charitable objects would be read under UK charity law. EFDSS isn't just any old non-profit that simply change itself to suite the views of it's current officers and members. It's a long-standing UK charity with considerable assets, some of which it may not have gained had it not been a registered charity.

The 'objects' can be changed to move with the times, but I think you will find there is a very formal process for coming to an agreement as to "what the EFDSS is for". The current exercise may be part of that.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 12:28 PM

So EFDSS will be happy with the dance participation for all using largely established dance tunes and others which are fit for purpose and of course whatever classification of dance ~ traditional sword and couples etc

Now songs are and have "traditionally" been just that, however defined but this is now being augmented by new songs either using existing tunes as was the way in the broadside ballads and professionals are also using and creating "new" folk songs and are reviving existing traditional songs by creating new tunes and versions and indeed new songs "in the tradition" If you are still following me

So it seems to me that the future for funding may also be following the "new" song pathway ~ PRS and copyright issues may also be a reason for this trend

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Brian Peters
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 01:33 PM

'I have noticed in music sessions, tunes that I think of as English cropping up from Sweden, or Wales.'

No argument there, Mo. I remember 20-odd years ago being thrilled to hear a Danish band playing a tune I knew from Bob Cann as 'Double Quadrille' but which they'd got from their local tradition. The old English village tunebooks often have a few tunes with French titles, and there's certainly overlap with Northern Europe, Wales, and especially Scotland. But I would still argue that there is a recognizably English dance music repertoire, and style of playing it (like when Tex-Mex accordionists play 'The Beer Barrel' polka). The same is true even more for English songs.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 05:45 PM

Let us not fall into the trap. All Folk songs were written. And not all authors were A. Non. in centuries past (pick a number, any number)

And not all dances (or dance tunes) we dance to are from the EDM (pick a year, any year), some are er... um... modern & credited.

The message is: we are moulded by the times, and to quote some relatively modern Folk plagiarist "The times they are a-changing". EFDSS has to change with them.

The whole question of what form the changes take is not the subject of the thread. The subject is a name change and riding on the back of that is how it will be perceived by the disinterested public. Its a marketing exercise - for a cohort who are largely, by definition, not interested in commerce.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 02:58 AM

"** "it" being the use of the word English in EFDSS's charitable objects."

I really do hope that the word "English" is not now a taboo name that is no longer acceptable and needs to change ~ gawd 'elp us!

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 06:42 AM

Mr Red, the discussion arose because of the question whether the dropping of the word "English" might also imply a move from promoting English folk music to promoting all "folk arts" in England of any origin. Whilst English folk music does not exist in a vacuum and some songs, dances and tunes may have originated elsewhere, there are as Brian says distinctive styles which are recognisably English. Whilst I agree that too much discussion about what is meant by "English folk" may be a distraction, there is undoubtedly an identifiable English tradition which it is the purpose of the EFDSS to uphold.

Ray, the whole point of the proposed name change is because the term "English" has indeed apparently become taboo in some quarters. As you say, gawd 'elp us!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,28 Dec 21 - 09:18 AM
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 09:06 AM

(I quoted the objects and last Guest was me)

"there is undoubtedly an identifiable English tradition which it is the purpose of the EFDSS to uphold." (Howard Jones).

Yes, but being picky about the "objects" "...AND TO ENCOURAGE THE PRACTICE OF THEM IN THEIR ORIGINAL FORMS" could suggest something more like reenactment, which term came up above or on the adjacent 'folk a dirty word' thread.

Was something like re-enactment what the founders had in mind? Or do they mean something more like practice in modern day equivalents of their original context. So rather than singing in the cart on the way back from the fair it might be on the bus on the way back from the match. Or is a folk club, or a pub session, the descendant of the cart from the fair? Either way you might get Buddy Holly instead of the latest broadside or something from the pleasure garden.

'Folk Arts' could be a short form of "FOLK DANCES, SONGS AND MUSIC, TALES AND DRAMA". But is it Folk Arts of now or of the past?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 10:03 AM

The charitable objects are worded in fairly broad terms, and I don't think the wording Guest quotes means EFDSS is meant to encourage performance only in its original forms, or that it prevents EFDSS from promoting other interpretations. If the Trustees felt that the objects were too restrictive they could change them, and indeed charities are encouraged to review their objects from time to time to ensure they remain relevant. As long as the revised objects still fulfil a charitable purpose there should be no difficulty changing them. What emphasis a charity puts on different elements of the objects is entirely a matter for the trustees.

I'm not aware of anything EFDSS is currently doing which could be said to clearly fall outside its charitable objects, neither am I aware of any intention to change the charitable objects. At the moment it seems to be just the name itself. However I am struggling to understand how it can promote English folk if the term "English" is to be eradicated.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 12:31 PM

you cannot promote English Folk if the name is dropped.
Why not call it the anything goes dance and song society

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 02:54 AM

"I'm not aware of anything EFDSS is currently doing which could be said to clearly fall outside its charitable objects, neither am I aware of any intention to change the charitable objects. At the moment it seems to be just the name itself. However I am struggling to understand how it can promote English folk if the term "English" is to be eradicated."

No change to the name is needed in my view ~~~

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 08:18 AM

‘The English Folk Dance and Song Society’ is cumbersome and is usually shortened to the acronym EFDSS — meaningless to the vast majority of the population, and even to many people who already enjoy folk music and dance.
"There is incontrovertible evidence that many people feel excluded by the word ‘English’.
‘Dance and Song’ neglects our significant activities on music.
To many, ‘Society’ suggests an inward-looking and reactionary bureaucracy.
In summary, the name is no longer appropriate for the organisation’s multi-faceted activities as the national champion of the folk music and dance of England.
It would be easy to keep the status quo. But our Aims and Objectives include an undertaking to ‘celebrate diversity and promote equality’. We must now consider a change of name if we are to fulfil our essential ambitions of widening the appeal of the folk music, dance, customs and traditions of England.

The Board consider Folk Arts England to be an appropriate name."

What do you reckon? Looks like the consultation is over Jan 5th ~ so back to basket weaving then??

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 11:23 AM

'GUEST,28 Dec 21 - 09:18 AM - PM'

A bit of a cumbersome moniker, 'Guest...'. Most of us here find our actual names more convenient. However...

'Was something like re-enactment what the founders had in mind?'

Clearly not, if Cecil Sharp's piano arrangements are anything to go by. 'In their original forms' was presumably meant to refer to the core material, rather than forbidding contemporary arrangements of it; some would say that the core material was being altered as well, though I'd say the second Revival did far more of that than the first.

There is, however, a potential contradiction between the 'original forms' clause and the emphasis on 'new work' apparently demanded by arts funding organisations. That doesn't mean that new work shouldn't be encouraged, but there remains a question of the extent to which it should be expected to conform to the musical conventions of the 'original forms', and by what criteria conformity should be judged.

In a recent discussion of 'authenticity' I asked whether we should regard as 'more authentic' the Copper Family's rendition of 'Shepherd of the Downs', or a pleasure garden re-enactment orchestra performing 'The Shepherd Adonis' - the song's original form. Answer came there none.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 11:43 AM

Getting back to the topic, I've just filled in the EFDSS form. To my amazement, when I got to the page discussing the various alternative names (including retaining EFDSS), there was no opportunity to express a preference - just a list of the most popular names as voted for by a panel of 65 persons the selection criteria for which was not explained. Whatever you think about the name, as an exercise in democracy this is pretty poor.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 11:51 AM

Very Poor

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 01:47 PM

The discussion is continued of fb ~ hope I haven't offended anyone by pinching posts

I have come to the conclusion that EFDSS is the only option ~ it is in my mind like a Professional body for all outside of London ~ major asset is VWML

Folk Arts England says nothing and totally disregards the goodwill built up over the years of its existence and joining with folk song and dance societies

Ray

What the EFDSS has planned in the future is the most important factor ~leave the name alone, please!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 04:03 PM

Changing the name of a long-established organisation is always going to be problematic. I wonder how many of us long-standing members (no cracks please!) have actually thought for one second that the name needed changing. I do hope they consider all the pitfalls before making any changes. I filled in my form and voted for no change on the grounds that I could not think of a good reason for doing so. If it does what it says on the tin leave it alone. If I'm discussing with folkies I'll say Effdus. If with non folkies I'll use the full title happily. All an improvement on the 'Dingdong Society' which we used disparagingly in the 70s.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 04:08 AM

Whatever you think about the name, as an exercise in democracy this is pretty poor.

As I've said before, the consultation seems to be slanted to support a decision which has already been made. Not only is there no opportunity to vote on the suggested names, the questions about "Englishness" (which seems to underlie the reasons for the change) don't seem to refer to it in the relevant context.

This sort of approach to "consultation" is not unusual, but it is disappointing.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 05:35 AM

Good post by Steve Gardham 04 Jan 22 - 04:03 PM I find myself in agreement with it.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 06:28 AM

I've been lurking! Reading almost all of these posts on a daily basis. There have been some good posts, and in particular I would commend the re-reading of posts by Howard Jones on 30 December 2.28 and 2.54. On 1 Jan 5.22 (but see below) and 3 Jan at 10.03. He seems to have got the measure of it. Just one minor correction. The Full English was funded by the Heritage Lottery Fund, not the Arts Council. HLF thought The Full English title of the project was excellent.
Derek

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 10:01 AM

I'm happy to be corrected on that, Derek. I don't think it alters my underlying point, which was that having staff members and trustees who are familiar with the workings of the mainstream arts world has probably helped the Society to tap into sources of funding such as this, where you have to speak the language and tick the right boxes to be successful. I'm happy to give them credit for that. At the same time, I find it regrettable that in trying to bring folk into that (largely professional) arts world they seem to be neglecting the amateur grass-roots which have always been at the core of folk.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 10:37 AM

Can't disagree with you there Howard.
Derek

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 10:40 AM

Nicely put, Howard.

Derek, I too was very happy with the title 'Full English'. Again it did what it said on the tin. Then all of a sudden when a new batch of manuscripts/broadsides came online which I was involved in they decided 'The Full English' was to be dropped, after successfully marketing it. I couldn't tell you what it is now called. Not even sure if the organisers know. VWML Online? is not quite the business, if that's what it is. However, a magnificent resource.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Alan Day
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 06:13 PM

I went to the very first and many of the subsequent meetings of EFDSS and I found that it was a pleasant get together of musicians playing tunes and singing songs that formed friendships that have lasted a lifetime. From those early days many of us have branched into other types of music and there has been a cross over of styles , but I have never been approached by anyone to say "Excuse me this is not English". I must admit to running the first Euro Session at an EFDSS meeting and it was a full house and others have introduced these sessions to other festivals. In no way would I want to lose the English Traditional music that started me off in the folk Scene, but if rules " Only English music playing " were enforced and or other rules then it would spoil all of what has been achieved since this organisation started. My vote would be to leave it exactly as it is with the flexibility that we have all enjoyed.
Al

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 05:04 AM

Steve ... to be fair, The Full English does appear on the VWML website, here: www.vwml.org/projects Some digitisation (Take 6) appeared before The Full English, and some (Carpenter collection, I think) appeared after the project. Some of the resources that were digitised as part of TFE have not yet been placed online, sadly...
Derek

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 08:25 AM

" At the same time, I find it regrettable that in trying to bring folk into that (largely professional) arts world they seem to be neglecting the amateur grass-roots which have always been at the core of folk"

But does that amateur grassroots level even need a society? I'm interested in what specific activities the EFDSS could do that would actually make those people think 'well, seeing as they're doing this I'll join up".

I suspect that a lot of those folkies are happy to go to singarounds and gigs at their local folk club, and they don't really need to join a society to do that.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 09:10 AM

This has always been a major problem. The London-centric society, even when I first joined in the 60s, found it very hard to connect with the grass roots, particularly song. I was very lucky to belong to a folk club that had a full set of the Journals and was a member as a club. We also had a very enthusiastic dance-based regional officer based in the city who encouraged what we did and initially got our dance teams off the ground. At its height the club ran a once a week folk club, workshops, mummers team, sword, morris, clog, country dance teams, dance bands, and a folk show that went out into surrounding villages. We had catalysts who kept everything together and we were almost all in our early 20s and fully involved. However, as these 20-year olds got married and had families they tended to specialise more, still staying involved, but along with the dying off of the older members and this the scene in our area had a tendency to fragment.

Apart from the few older dancers I am probably the only EFDSS member left in the city. Although helping to hold together a local folk scene I couldn't contemplate trying to convince any of our teams to become members now. As Matt says, why would they, especially in the deteriorating economic climate?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 09:34 AM

if we look at the dance side of the society, they may have missed opportunities in the past, for example when the morris ring was actively against women morris dancers, did they show women morris dancers support? a question not a statement,
have they shown trans genders who wish to dance morris supprt?
I am more actively involved in song and lived in ireland for 31 years, so am out of touch with the dance side of EFDSS

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 09:47 AM

Matt, in one sense you're right. I'm one of the 1970s generation of folkies who the EFDSS turned its back on. For more than 50 years I've been involved as a singer and musician in folk clubs, ceilidhs, sessions and festivals, and I also help to run a regular series of dances; the EFDSS has had no involvement in any of these, and if it were to disappear overnight it wouldn't make any difference to me or my musical activities.

Nevertheless, it could do a lot more to provide the club infrastructure with advice and guidance. There is nothing on the EFDSS website which offers any advice on how to run a folk song or dance club. Back in the 1970s someone would hire the back room of a pub and advertise a club, but these days we have to be far more conscious of health and safety, data protection, licensing and copyright and a host of other stuff. I wonder how many folk clubs have public liability insurance, or are even aware that they might need it?

Of course you can now find information on the internet, but it is often aimed at businesses and it can be surprisingly difficult to find it in a digestible form which is appropriate for small voluntary community organisations.

First of all you need to know what you should look for. For example the General Data Protection Regulations (GDPR) affect all organisations which hold personal data, including voluntary and community organisations. Any club which keeps a list of members, or has a mailing list, must comply. One (non-music) organisation I am involved with drew this to the attention of its associated clubs and advised them what to do. The EFDSS has nothing, and when I emailed them for help I was ignored. I suspect there may be quite a few clubs out there whose organisers didn't learn about GDPR from other sources and which are not compliant with it.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 10:51 AM

But this is the thing though - it's accused of being Londoncentric but I don't think people would join even if it started putting on events or workshops in Birmingham or Sheffield.

I'm not saying this as a staunch defender of the EFDSS either. I'm a Londoner myself, I have been to quite a few gigs at Cecil Sharp House over the years, I did the Saturday morning banjo courses they still teach, I used to enjoy especially going to the annual christmas shindig... but I've never joined and frankly it's never occurred to me to do so.

I've also organised loads of gigs in pub function rooms, church halls and community centres over the years. It's never occurred to me to even think about insurance or GDPR and it's never stopped me doing all those things. funnily enough the only time I've ever had to think about Public Liability Insurance was... when I enquired about hiring the bar of Cecil Sharp House!

It was a stipulation of the hire I had to have it. Literally the only venue in London that ever asked me that. So I didn't bother, went somewhere else.

My point is not that the EFDSS abandoned the grassroots, it's that the grassroots doesn't really need the EFDSS. I'm in London, I go to some EFDSS events, but even I don't really need them as such - I've never been a member, and treat gigs at Cecil Sharp House much like gigs anywhere else.

I suppose, in other words, I can't really see the EFDSS lasting all that much longer - unless it gets a decent amount of funding. The grassroots scene being mentioned in this thread is by and large pretty old, it's not unfair to say. Even if a large number of 60 and 70somethings from outside London suddenly all joined the EFDSS en masse, that would only help the EFDSS for another 10 years or so.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 12:23 PM

very good points, Matt, i suppose keeping it going for another 10 years is better than not

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 01:55 PM

Matt and Howard make very good points. However, some of us need a strong central point, if only to maintain the library and website. That means accepting that any serious funding is going to come from heritage and arts foundations, and therefore we need the right people who can tap into this. This seems to be what is happening even in these restricted times. Having been a volunteer at a small museum recently that went into liquidation with the loss of important local heritage, I am all too aware of how important funding is. Whilst I don't condone needless title changing, if it helps to keep EFDSS in funding then perhaps a necessary evil?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 02:28 PM

It's never occurred to me to even think about insurance or GDPR and it's never stopped me doing all those things.

You've confirmed my point. I suspect you're far from being the only organiser who's never thought about these things. When you organise an event, no matter how small and informal, you take on some responsibilities and liabilities, and yet the national organisation for folk dance and song doesn't even mention this.

It is advisable to have public liability insurance, not because a venue asks for it but because if someone were to be injured at an event you organise then you could be held liable (if you're a member of EFDSS you already have PLI).

EFDSS has a membership problem, with only around 2200 individual members. I suspect it has become an organisation for dispensing funding given by other bodies, which probably explains its current direction. In many respects it's become an irrelevance to most people in the folk world, and yet it is the only national body for folk music, and like it or not it speaks on our behalf. Most importantly, it is the custodian of the Library, and even those of us who've nver used it have benefited from the work there of others. That is why I think what it does and what it calls itself should be of interest to the whole folk community, and not just the tiny handful of members.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 02:34 PM

Whilst I don't condone needless title changing, if it helps to keep EFDSS in funding then perhaps a necessary evil?

If that is the case, then perhaps it is. However that's not an argument being put forward. The reason for the name change seems to be to increase diversity and accessibility for those who are uncomfortable with the term "English". Perhaps there is an implied threat to funding if they don't, but in that case they should come out with it.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 02:29 AM

" Perhaps there is an implied threat to funding if they don't, but in that case they should come out with it." I agree with Howard here


Whilst it is true that H&S issues on PLI have it seems changed certainly for festivals, many folk clubs are held in small pub rooms, whilst accepting that concert clubs will have perhaps their own PLI?

I think most importantly we have to accept pub rooms rented have relied on the pub PLI ~ sometimes scams can and have happened, fake claims to accidents (at dances for example) have occurred for injury, but many are quite legitimate ~ no insurance end of dances etc

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 04:46 AM

One unexpected consequence of this whole discussion is that I am considering joining.
Mainly because I hadn't known that membership gave you digital access to past editions of Folk Music Journal?

Does anyone (Steve?) know how many past editions are accessible? Is it a lot or just a select few? If membership allows me to browse hundreds of articles going back over decades then that for me is a worthwhile reason.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 06:01 AM

I am confused as to why there are people uncomfortable with the term "English".

Is it that they find the term too confining, wanting to include music from further afield or from recent additions to our diverse cultures?

Is it that they find it too wide a description and want to limit it to some geographic or historic restriction?

England is certainly not a single culture to anything like the same extent as Scotland or Wales. Is this the problem?

Can we find a common ground that resolves these questions?

Robin

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 06:55 AM

Matt
It will give you access to all the journals back to 1899, apart from the last few (2or 3?). The access is via JSTOR.
Derek

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,28 Dec 21
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 07:00 AM

I think using 'Folk Arts England' helps carry the meaning 'of England' rather than 'English'.

It's more obviously related to a geographic or administrative region. So from a cultural perspective, for example, music of NE England is 'of England' even though it may have strong influences from over the border and include players such as John Doonan. In any specific context stylistic elements that might be regarded as 'Scottish', 'Irish' or English' could be discussed using those terms.

This post is itself pedantic but I think 'of England' is less capable of misinterpretation than 'English' or being misused by some wavers of the St George's flag.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 07:41 AM

I am confused as to why there are people uncomfortable with the term "English".

EFDSS claims that there is "incontrovertible evidence that many people feel excluded by the word 'English' " but they haven't shown us that evidence. They have apparently carried out a survey, but haven't shared the results with the members, who are supposed to simply accept this.

The single response they have published says "Having grown up being continually told 'I am not English' by white people ... I find the word problematic ... there is a tacit association of 'Englishness' with 'Whiteness..." (They say this is one of several similar comments)

I don't question that, but I think it's the wrong context for this particular question. Does it apply to concepts such as English food, and if not why should it apply to the concept of English folk music? Even if the Society changes its name, will that make English folk music more attractive to someone who feels like this about their personal identity? How can the Society, whatever it calls itself, promote English folk music without using the term 'English'?

In the survey, the questions about "English and England" to me seem to be about this idea of and English personal identity, rather than its meaning to describe English folk.

It also asks whether "Folk Arts England" suggests it is the "custodians of all the traditions of folk music song and dance in England", which raises the question whether it intends to reduce its focus on English folk to include the traditions of other cultures now living in England.

EFDSS has promised to open the consultation to non-members in the New Year, when you will be able to see for yourselves.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 08:22 AM

I think 'of England' is less capable of misinterpretation than 'English'

I don't think that's right, as your mention of John Doonan illustrates. I don't know whether he thought of himself as English, Irish, Geordie, a mixture of any of those, or something else entirely, but his music was undoubtedly Irish. He played it in England, and so it could be said to be "of England", but it would be a brave person who claimed it to be English music.

There is a large Irish community in most parts of English which vigorously promotes its own musical culture. There are many other communities with their own traditions, which could also be said to be "of England".

EFDSS has never confined itself only to English music and neither has the wider folk scene. That's one thing, claiming to be the custodian of all the folk music "of England" (as one of the survey questions suggests) is quite another.

Perhaps this too is a pedantic interpretation, but it shows that the meaning of both phrases is unclear. The problem is that, however you interpret it, Englishness is at the core of EFDSS's purpose, and it is tying itself in knots trying to avoid saying this.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,28 Dec 21
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 10:03 AM

I didn't mean John Doonan's Irish music. He is on recordings with well known names of NE English music playing English (and probably Scottish) tunes. We hear an uncommon instrument being played in a style that borrows heavily from Ireland.

On another tack how about Scan Tester's repertoire? Quite a bit of that was from outside England. He was an English folk artist and his music was part of the the 'folk art of England' - in my book even when he was playing 'Edelweiss' at a festival session in the 60s. (I'll back off on that line before we get to folk clubs and Buddy Holly)

VWML did well on funding over the archive material, and pushing 'English Tradition' to the fore over that made sense. But what the folk do in clubs and pubs and what they listen to at concerts is wider than that but 'of England'

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 12:21 PM

Scan Tester played EDELWEISS, so what, Why should i want to play it or hear it just because he played it.
whatever folk do in pubs or clubs, does not automatically make it folk music, and none of that justifies changing the name.
When I played yesterday on the concertina i did not call it folk music, when i played in a pop group and playedsmall faces sha la lee[ what dross], i did not call it folk music

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 12:33 PM

As someone who has done most things in the Folk world the EFDSS has had no input, it has always appeared to me as a London luvvie thing . We the true folkies will continue as we have done before and the what ever it call itself will slip back into obscurity . I have also heard a dance team has been practicing at C#house have been asked to leave as they are hurting the floor Don’t think you could make it up

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 01:36 AM

"I have also heard a dance team has been practicing at C#house have been asked to leave as they are hurting the floor"

Floors have to be fit for purpose ~ and heavy footed cloggies and similar can cause expensive damage

Looks like EFDSS is suffering a reckoning as to who and what is and is not doing and its future existence?

I do hope that some realignment and home truths can be reached and restated!

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Vic Smith
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 06:52 AM

Dick wrote: -
Scan Tester played EDELWEISS, so what
What is interesting is not the fact that Scan played "Edelweiss" or "Puppet On A String" but the changes that his playing on a C/G anglo-concertina brought by his interpretation. Scan could see the potential for those tunes and they went through the process that Scan's playing brought to them. He played the keyed bugle in a militia marching band as a young msn and some of these tunes he returned to as dance polkas later in his life.
It is what happens; traditional musicians hear a tune from another genre and realise that they can consciously or consciously adapt them for their own purposes.
How many hornpipes came into the wider English repertoire from the entr'acte tunes of clog dancers with travelling theatre companies?
Why did so many Tex-Mex musicians become entranced with "The Birdy Song"?
What made the magnificent Malian balafon player, Kélétigui Diabaté, realise that he could bring something new and exciting to George Gershwin's "Summertime" to make it sound like an old Manding classic?
A Finnish waltz whose title in translation is something like "A Walk in the Woods" was taken across the Atlantic, words were put to it and several top artists recorded it in the 1950s as "Mocking Bird Hill". It came back across and was taken up as a waltz with variations in the north of Ireland.
It is what happens. The tradition becomes richer for it. We should celebrate it.

Sorry if this takes us off topic. I have just renewed my EFDSS subscription this week but if I see the organisation continue to move from being a grassroots organisation to being part of the Arts msinsteam mainly benefitting professional exponents (and I see the proposed change of name as part of this process) then I think that shall not be renewing next year.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 08:07 AM

Vic, "but the changes that his playing on a C/G anglo-concertina brought by his interpretation."quote
That is your subjective opinion about his playing.,it is not a fact.
I recorded-"yesterday" and played it on a concertina ,it does not make it a folk tune, it might be a beautiful tune, That is neither here nor there, it is still a composition by Sir James Paul McCartney
Edelweiss is a composition by Richard Rodgers, That is a fact.
in theory, anyone getting paid for playing it should pay royalties, the fact that folk musicians might occasionally play composed poptunes does not suddenly make the composition a folk tune

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 08:15 AM

Well, I'm no big fan but, in defence of EFDSS:

No one flooring material is suitable for all dance forms. The group organizer and whomever is/was in charge of permitting the space should have known better from the start. If memory serves, Sharp House has (had?) a sprung pine floor. Fine for social dance but totally unsuitable for any percussive genre, eg: step, tap, flamenco &c.

Maple or hard oak is the only way to go for the right sound and durability. These days it costs a medium fortune to do it right.

Not that it matters here but, neither of the above would be optimal for the really physical stuff like ballet, urban or modern.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Vic Smith
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 08:42 AM

Dick,
I was merely pointing out that many tunes that now exist in many traditions can be traced to known composers or have been adopted from other ethnic musics and changed to fit different functions - and that the majority of modern folk ethnomusicologists consider that process and adaptation are as worthy of study as origin. You obviously think differently and that is fine - except that a close observation of the way that traditional musicians transmute written pieces is an observable fact and not an opinion.
No more from me on this.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 09:22 AM

Vic, the weakness of the style not repertoire determining folk music, lies when Cliff Richard and Peter Pears record The Water Is Wide, IMO stylistically THEY WRECK IT, but it is still a folk song.
The way that Traditional musicians transmute written pieces varies considerably, an example is IRISHFIDDLE styles.

imo the fact that Scan played Edelweiss possibly illustrates the weakness of the English TRADTIONAL INSTRUMENTAL REPERTOIRE of that time, compared to Scottish and Irish tradtional music.
The only reason I listen to other players is to listen to their musicality and enjoy their music.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 09:35 AM

that should read southern English repertoire,I am Excluding NORTHUMBRIAN Repertoire from that statement

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 02:47 PM

Quoting from another thread:
"In England there isn't even the desire for a sense of national identity which makes the Scots, Irish and Welsh at least recognise and acknowledge their traditional music even if they don't choose to listen to it for pleasure. The English have ignored their own traditional music heritage, and are embarrassed by it when it comes to their attention."
Would EFDSS's proposed name change help or hinder?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 04:48 PM

It would be difficult to assess whether there would be any benefit from a name change - other than helping (maybe) with the begging bowl.
The cost of implementing the change would be the first thing to put in a grant application for!
I am still waiting for a reply from either the treasurer or the membership department - obviously busy?
As I predicted no one from the Society has reacted to this thread.
Hey Ho

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 10 Jan 22 - 08:56 PM

Seems I have become persona non grata yet again

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 02:28 AM

apply for membership don't do a Djokovic

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 06:15 AM

Quoting from another thread:
"In England there isn't even the desire for a sense of national identity which makes the Scots, Irish and Welsh at least recognise and acknowledge their traditional music even if they don't choose to listen to it for pleasure. The English have ignored their own traditional music heritage, and are embarrassed by it when it comes to their attention."
Would EFDSS's proposed name change help or hinder?

That was in the context of attitudes towards folk music. The majority of English people have forgotten their folk traditions, and unlike the other nations of these islands don't feel these form part of their cultural identity or that they need to be maintained for that reason. The proposed name change will neither help nor hinder this, since for the majority it is a complete irrelevance. Most people neither know nor care that EFDSS even exists and have no interest in anything it does. Calling it "Folk Arts" won't change that.

So who should it matter to? The EFDSS's justification is that this is to include those of other backgrounds who, although born and brought up here, don't feel themselves to be English. However it has offered no evidence that they would feel any differently about English folk music if the name of the organisation were changed. It feels as if it is being done simply to tick a 'diversity' box.

Secondly there are the funding bodies and other arts organisations EFDSS works with. The EFDSS hasn't mentioned them so we don't know their points of view. It is very possible that they will want to see the diversity box ticked, whether or not this actually achieves anything. This might actually be the best reason for a name change, if it would help to secure future funding, but it is not one the EFDSS has put forward.

Thirdly there are all those involved in folk music who the EFDSS claims to represent, although it is difficult to see on what authority they can do this, given the tiny membership. I suspect that many of them see "English" as actually being quite important, but I guess the consultation will show if this is the case.

There's still no sign of the EFDSS engaging in any debate, despite the number of comments on its own Facebook page, for example.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 06:18 AM

Ray
I do have membership - it just keeps making me log in about once a month which is obviously a pain. I don't know if others have this problem.
Unlike Djokovic (kick him out Oz) I am fully vaccinated and boostered thank you.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mo the caller
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 09:23 AM

I suspect it's your computer that makes you log in after an update. I tend not to notice, till I see my posts come up as Guest

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 09:42 AM

Somewhere, there' a browser setting, where you tell it to delete cookies upon logout, or keep them.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 12 Jan 22 - 04:41 AM

You lose membership if you change your virus protection settings or some such change ~ I lose my membership that way, ease to get it back Malcolm

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 12 Jan 22 - 09:04 AM

I repeatedly tell microsoft not to do any updates - do they listen - the hell they do!!
But thanks for your comprehensive advice Ray.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 10:49 AM

The consultation has been extended to 14 February. So far it still seems to be open only to members, although they have promised they will open it to others at some point.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 01 Mar 22 - 06:46 PM

I was happily remembering songs I used to sing - it's not illegal - yet - and the Seeds of Love came to mind.
Cecil Sharp blamed this song for his involvement and large part in bringing about the English Folk Dance & Song Society.
Sharp collected the song from one John England - how very apt!
If the current clowns at the society have their way then by definition Sharp's source must become John / Johann / Jean / etc etc Everyman in order not to offend anyone!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Mar 22 - 02:51 AM

Malcolm Storey or Malcolm étage
how about Jean Angleterre, that neatly circumvents the problem

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Mar 22 - 07:15 AM

This has all gone a bit quiet. I think the members' consultation has now closed, but there's no sign yet of the promised consultation with non-members.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 02 Mar 22 - 07:36 AM

Dick - I think Angleterre would be far too English for some offended parties.
Incidentally on the 18:30 comedy slot on BBC Radio yesterday there was a sketch about people being offended at not being offended and discussing ways to correct the problem - amusing but alarmingly accurate.

Howard - I should not hold your breath on that one.
Even when I was vice chairman of the society I still had to wade through evasive tactics. I was once asked to stop asking the then treasurer awkward questions!
He was a fairly high up in the Bank of England so knew little about real life - nice chap though.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 01:37 AM

New "EDS" magazine received and no decision yet reached on future name or change ~

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 03:13 AM

it is in my opinion about "is it important to change the name,
EFDSS in my opinion should be promoting itself and its insurance scheme to get young people to organise festivals. As a festival organiser my experience is that it is good to start with one day festivals. Young people have to be encouraged to organise festivals, if they do not there will be nowhere for them to play. Instead of giving out gold badges Encourage young members to organise festival with a subsidy

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 03:35 AM

In my opinion, one really positive fact about the Society is the insurance scheme for members organising events, promote this to young pro and semi pro performers to emncourage them to organise events.
The PROPOSED name change is OF the ilk of Don Quixote, the famous tilter at windmills

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Guest Anon
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 03:57 AM

It reminds me of a parody of the carter family song Gold Watch and Chain
Oh, I'll pledge you, my gold badge and name love
And I'll pledge you, my gold wedding ring
I will pledge you, this heart in my bosom
Only say that you'll love me again
Darling, how could I stay here without you?
I have nothing to ease my poor heart
This whole world would seem sad, love, without you
Tell me now that we never will part
Oh, I'll pledge you, my gold badge andname love
And I'll pledge you, my gold wedding ring
I will pledge you, this heart in my bosom
Only say that you'll love me again
Take back all the gifts you have given
A diamond ring and a lock of your hair
And a card with your picture upon it
It's a face that is false, but it's fair
Oh, I'll pledge you, my gold badge and name love
And I'll pledge you, my gold wedding ring
I will pawn you, this heart in my bosom
Only say that you'll love me again
Oh, the white rose that blooms in the garden
It grows with the love of my heart
It broke through on the day that I met you
It will die on the day that we part
Oh, I'll pledge you, my gold badge and name love
And I'll pledge you, my gold wedding ring
I will pledge you, this heart in my bosom
Only say that you'll love me again
Only say that you'll love me again

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,guest anon
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 04:11 AM

or
"Here's your gold badge and the shackles for your brain
And your piece of paper to say you left here sane"
"And if you've a son who wants a good career
Just get him to sign on the dotted line and play for fifty years"
He asked me how many jobs I'd had before
He nearly had a heart attack when I answered, "Four"
"Four jobs in twenty years, oh, this can never be"
"We only take on men who play until they die"
"Here's your gold badge and the shackles for your brain
And your piece of paper to say you left here sane"
"And if you've a son who wants a good career
Just get him to sign on the dotted line and work for fifty years"
He took me to SharpHouse to where the gravestones stand in line
"This is where we bury them, in quick-stone and in lime"
"And if you come to play for us, on this you must agree
That if you're going to die, please, do it while on stage"
"Here's your gold badge and the shackles for your brain
And your piece of paper to say you left here sane"
"And if you've a son who wants a good career
Just get him to sign on the dotted line and play for fifty years"
This story that you heard you may think rather queer
But it is the truth you'll be surprised to hear
I did not want no job upon the board
I just wanted to play a guitar and take the bloody floor
"Here's your gold watch and the shackles for your chain
And your piece of paper to say you left here sane"
"And if you've a son who wants a good career
Just get him to sign on the dotted line and play for fifty years"

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Peter Cripps
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 07:34 AM

Less than 700 responses from members according to EDS!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 08:11 AM

Fewer

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 09:18 AM

700 is about a third of the membership so actually not a bad percentage given that the thing was meaningless and could only point to one conclusion.
What is really needed is an accurate assessment of the true cost of not only changing the name but also the articles etc.
Lawyers don't come cheap or cheep - not even in nightingale courts.
Any decision should be based on facts.
Not seen a lot of those floating about.
The society is still a members society even though some of the officers would appear to prefer it not to be.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 09:22 AM

So should there be greater effort to promote financially and activity wise the song side as opposed to the dance side?

Songs ~ festivals, folk clubs, research and workshops and contemporary song writing

Dance ~ from morris, sword, social dance, clog etc

The activities are wide ranging and a great deal of private venture already exists

What should EFDSS focus its attentions on ?

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Guest nom de plume
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 12:01 PM

EFDSS should focus its attentions on promoting both equally, they can do this by providing subsidies for young people to promote festivals in either dance or song or both

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 12:50 PM

Guest, I agree it would be good to see EFDSS doing more to support the grass roots. However there is hardly a scarcity of folk festivals. The UK Folk Festivals website lists 139 festivals in England this year, 37 in Scotland, 18 in Wales and 18 in Ireland. This is probably far from complete - I know of a few (admittedly small and eclectic) events which are not shown.

Nevertheless you have a point about the insurance. EFDSS provides this as a benefit to members, but not only does it do little to publicise this, it does nothing to raise awareness that this is something event organisers should consider.

I get the impression it is not really interested in attracting members (its membership is tiny, at around 2200). It seems to function quite happily as an arts body channelling third-party funding into whatever activities the trustees and staff consider suitable. I see no evidence that they are much interested in what the membership thinks - this consultation is very much an exception.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Guest Anon
Date: 15 Mar 22 - 08:57 AM

There is a scarcity of young people running folk festivals and folk clubs, by publicising it to young people and encouraging young people with grants there is a possibilty young people may take over as organisers it is called financial incentive, but it needs to be publicised efficently

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: treewind
Date: 15 Mar 22 - 03:51 PM

"Folk Arts will always be abbreviated, portmanteaued, pesudonymed - talk "about coonotations!"

Not to mention parodied. I'll be calling them "Woke Arts England".

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 16 Mar 22 - 01:01 AM

oh WARTS and FARTS ~ leave well alone

Ray

Long live EFdus

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 22 - 05:54 PM

EFDSS for the London luvvies get did of it and it’s so called reincarnation it hates the north

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,another guest
Date: 11 Apr 22 - 06:12 PM

It not only hates the north(?) it just hates the membership.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 08:57 AM

I have found it useful. I am using their insurance

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 04:45 PM

Would that be for an event in Ireland ? Are you sure that will work in event of a claim ? Just curious.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 04:51 PM

Yes.I have read it thoroughly

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 22 - 05:43 PM

So not supporting English Music or Muscians working in England. You just couldn’t make it up

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 24 Apr 22 - 03:11 AM

I can't see where "NOT supporting English Music and Musicians" comes into it

I do support the work EFDSS does particularly with young professionals in the area of grants

It is the name and the word "English" that seems to be the problem ~ I have no problem with English ~ we are English and the word is, for me quite acceptable and no other difficulties should be implied!!

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 24 Apr 22 - 06:04 PM

Perhaps the last note Ray refers to is aimed at Dick who I am sure can fight his own battles.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 24 Apr 22 - 06:10 PM

I see the EFDSS joined with millions of others in celebrating St George's day.

"I am St George who from England sprung, my famous name throughout the world has rung"
The first couplet of my script when I played the doughty warrior.

Just tongue in cheek thoughts!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,guest Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 22 - 07:20 AM

EFDSS SUPPORTS International FOLK DANCE and Folk Song, since my festival supports English folk musicans such as Keith Kendrick, Jim Mageean,Sylvia Needham, Andy Kenna, Merfolk,Sheila Park, Gemma Khawaja, Roger Resch, your coments are widely inaccurate, as well as provocative

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 22 - 02:42 AM

www.fastnetmaritime.com supports english folkmusicians playing in ireland, EFDSS are promoting english folk music in ireland. we appreciate the support of EFDSS

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Guest Sandman
Date: 27 Apr 22 - 02:46 AM

27 april22 242am was from me

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 22 - 03:24 AM

Anonymouse guest are you suggesting that english folk musicians singing english shanties should not be supported when they work outside England, you just couldnt make it up. to quote Martin Carthy "who is this berlk"

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 05 Jun 22 - 09:13 PM

If the clowns in charge do change the name what will the Full English become?
Perhaps the Full Erm!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 02:18 AM

the full albion?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 09:49 AM

The latest English Dance & Song says that the consultation is still continuing. We are assured that this is a genuine consultation, and that no decision has been made. If true (and I'm ready to give them the benefit of the doubt) the design of the survey is even worse than I imagined, if it's obvious bias is in fact accidental.

The only analysis they've provided at this stage is how people feel about "Englishness". There's a hint that a lot of the pressure may be coming from other organisations they work with, who may have no interest in folk music or tradition and perhaps have quite different priorities. This seems to all be part of EFDSS's desire to join the Arts mainstream and abandon the grass roots.

When the name change was originally proposed the Chair said she hoped for a "mature discussion" but I haven't seen EFDSS engaging with any of the online debates I've come across, including this one.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 04:54 PM

this could be solved by calling it The Folkdance and Song society, its approach is international any way, international includes the UK England is in fact a multi racial society anyway.
in the past ex Russian dancers, RESDIENT OR BORN IN eNGLAND have put on displays for the society, so English includes other cultures and tradtuions and has for many years, i think back to the Debrowa? family

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 04:53 AM

ANOTHER ALTERNATIVE IS THE English and International Folk Dance and Song society EIFDSS, That way English is included and international, but how much will it cost to change the name on all the logos?and will it generate more funding? perhaps members should be informed of the figures, and then allowed to vote

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jun 22 - 03:18 AM

as a member,Iwant to know the cost of changing the name and definite evidence of it being a good business move

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 10 Jun 22 - 05:18 AM

I doubt the costs will be significant. It doesn't have lots of offices or fleets of vehicles to rebadge. A few boxes of stationery might go to waste, or they could simply replace them when they run out. If they can avoid paying excessive fees to graphic designers for a new logo then most of the admin could probably be done in-house.

It is apparent from the comments in ED&S that the questions about "Englishness" which appear to be driving this come from "people who regularly work with EFDSS". ED&S has published some of the responses to the questions on "Englishness" and these appear to disagree with some of the more loaded questions, in particular 52.9% entirely disagreed that "'English' feels a little possessive, as though someone has the power/authority to decide what or who is English".

I'm afraid this suggests to me that this is far more to do with EFDSS trying to be accepted into the mainstream arts world than it is to do with promoting folk music, and adds to my fears that it is increasingly distancing itself from the grass roots.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 22 - 12:14 AM

You and I have no idea of the costs, that is why i would like to know,
"It doesn't have lots of offices or fleets of vehicles to rebadge. A few boxes of stationery might go to waste, or they could simply replace them when they run out. If they can avoid paying excessive fees to graphic designers for a new logo then most of the admin could probably be done in-house" quote
where do you get your information on that.
you are right EFDSS could promote folk music better, promoting its insurance scheme for organisers of events is one starting point

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Jun 22 - 04:04 AM

Have you asked them about the costs involved? They are more likely to answer a direct question rather than a post on message board.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 22 - 06:04 AM

I predict you will not be thanked for that very sensible suggestion, Rain Dog.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 22 - 05:17 PM

yes good suggestion, Rain Dog

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 07 Sep 22 - 02:59 PM

The latest English Dance and Song has a few pages about the name change. Many of the submitted comments are quoted, all bar one more or less in favour of the change. The only comment opposed to the change that they have chosen to quote reads as if written by a white supremacist. They have presumably chosen that one to encourage readers to dismiss any and all opposition as similarly extremist and therefore to be dismissed.

The paragraph at the end is a bit too long to quote, but I venture to translate it thus: We have made up our corporate mind to effect the name change, but we're aware of the strength of opposition, so we will delay the change until the fuss has died down.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 13 Sep 22 - 02:47 AM

My fb friends comments are a ainst any changes and "Folk Arts" is already taken, it seems!

EFDSS ~ Efdus is well known

Cost of changes and bedding in will take over 20 years imv

No change, just a concerted effort on a Mission Statement and yes probably a good idea to continue to push at ground level youngster ~ but don't forget the source and revivivalist singers of the late 60s and 70s alive and not

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Sep 22 - 04:34 AM

Yes, the EDS article is appallingly partisan and unbalanced. In small print it acknowledges that "the only conclusion we can confidently draw [from the consultation] is that there is no consensus". It then devotes the rest of the page to entirely favourable comments. Any concerns are simply dismissed, and as Richard says the one unfavourable comment they have chosen to quote is quite extraordinary.

It does nothing to dispel concerns that the consultation is simply an exercise to justify a decision which has already been made. The published statement by the Board only reinforces this.

Despite a statement on its website that "There is incontrovertible evidence that many people feel excluded by the word ‘English'" they have not published anything to show how that influences those people's choice of music, or that substituting 'England' will alter their attitude to what is unavoidably English music, whatever the Society calls itself. Despite also saying "We want to have mature discussions", so far as I can see no one from EFDSS has entered into any debates online.

I strongly suspect that this is driven not by any expectation that it will widen involvement in folk music but in response to pressure from other arts organisations and perhaps government to appear more inclusive. I think that is the coded message in their statement that "We must now consider a change of name if we are to fulfil our essential ambitions of widening the appeal of the folk music, dance, customs and traditions of England." That is the world we now live in, but I'd be more supportive of a change if they were more honest about it.

"Folk Arts England" is a rubbish name though. It makes no mention of music, dance and song and so will require just as much explanation as EFDSS does. At least the full name, however cumbersome, is pretty clear what it does.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 13 Sep 22 - 04:46 AM

Regarding the word English ... a recently formed organisation, English Folk Expo, has included the word English in its title and is funded by the Arts Council, the Arts Council Lottery Funds, Greater Manchester Combined Authority, PRS etc etc.... evidently, the funders see no issue with the word, and if it was seen to exclude people, surely they would have adopted a different name.
Derek

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Sep 22 - 05:22 AM

Agreed Derek. However there is pressure on all publicly-funded bodies (not just in the arts) to increase diversity. It is up to the organisations themselves how they do this. Whilst the intention is laudable, the reasons for exclusion are often complex and sometimes lie within the communities themselves.

All the organisations can do is try to be welcoming to all. Perhaps the name plays a part in this. However whatever EFDSS chooses to call itself, sooner or later those individuals who engage with it will have to face the fact that it is concerned principally with English music. Surely that is the point, not the name of an organisation which claims to represent it (although with an individual membership of only around 2200 it seems to have very little authority for that claim).

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 13 Sep 22 - 06:44 PM

At the time I joined the Society they were pushing for a target of 10,000 members - how are the mighty fallen!?
An analysis of the accounts would probably show that annual income from members (ie not life members) is a relatively small part of the total.
There are several main reasons for the fall off of member commitment - most of which where fire sale responses to pull up the drawbridge to protect the London centralism.
The Society does not exist outside of London and not even for the average Londoner.
Incidentally I was extremely supportive of retaining Cecil Sharp house when its abandonment was being urged - but that was mainly on the basis of accessibility to library etc. London is still the easiest place in England to get to - especially by public transport.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 14 Sep 22 - 04:38 AM

Malcolm ... I cannot remember the last time there was any active attempt to recruit new members... certainly not since 2006 when I started to edit EDS.
Derek

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 14 Sep 22 - 05:35 AM

Members? Why do we need members?
It's all smoke & mirrors Derek.
In recent times I have written to both the Treasurer & the Chair - but it appears they are not allowed to communicate with members.
So who is in charge of this member based society???

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 22 - 05:06 PM

"not allowed to communicate with members". !!!!! Who is the almighty being who tells the treasurer and chair of any organisation this ? Why would anyone wish to be a member of such an organisation ?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,MichaelKM
Date: 14 Sep 22 - 07:03 PM

If I knew nothing about any of this and came across a society called Folk Arts England, I would immediately assume that it was to do with the visual arts and that it supported artists like the English equivalent of Grandma Moses. I would not associate it with folk music or dance at all.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 14 Sep 22 - 07:36 PM

Precisely guest!
It would appear that the lunatics are running the asylum - or at the very least the paid staff and not the trustees.
There seems to be a certain lack of fibre within the trustees or are they just innocents abroad?
One wonders how the Charity Commissioners would view this?
I suppose I might be accused of being conversely biased by agreeing with MichaeKM's comments.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 14 Sep 22 - 08:03 PM

...not allowed to communicate with members.

I've already said I'm no fan of EFDSS but, here I go again defending them. First thing I used to tell every client… s-t-f-U!

Most of the time, it's against some (by)law or regulation somewhere. It's not the talking… it's every other stakeholder not being able to listen in on the conversation. There is no privacy.
U.S. Federal: Government in the Sunshine Act

Too, the untrained, uneducated, self-appointed public information officer can be remarkably stoopid when it comes to “notifying the next of kin” and “proper authorities” in the proper sequence.


RE: EFDSS in particular. Remedial: Environmental, social, and corporate governance

But that's long since decided. We've already moved on to: Diversity, equity, and inclusion

Now go read that one so-called 'opposing viewpoint' again. I'm guessing the average 'trained' EFDSS board member would consider the average Mudcatter to be most of the problem and no part of the solution.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 22 - 03:53 AM

I feel sadness about the direction EFDSS seem to be taking, it reminds me of the phrase in a song "one day none will walk there at all". the management need a kick up the back side

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 22 - 05:21 AM

More like the current management need replacing, but how would you go about that ? Easier said than done, mind you, Boris got shifted, but then it comes down to what/who do you replace them with ?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 15 Sep 22 - 05:32 AM

Why not wait until they change the name then start a new society called The English Folk Song and Dance Society (or some such) then run it like eveyone here thinks it should be run, doing all the things you think should be done, and take it in the direction you choose?

I suggest you take cover when the rush to stand for office starts.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Peter Cripps
Date: 15 Sep 22 - 07:06 AM

To back up Derek's point about membership, during the 10 years or so that the EFDSS Board published the minutes of meetings, there was not one single discussion about membership and recruiting new members!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 22 - 04:41 PM

in 1986, JimLloyd wrote an article called the way ahead , a future for the EFDSS,Amongst other things he wrote"the words should include of England rather than English, to take account of the increasing importance of multi cultured folk activities"

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 12 Oct 22 - 07:52 PM

It's like déjà vu all over again. The Living Tradition: The EFDSS - A Future, by Roger Marriott, 1998

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 13 Oct 22 - 01:58 AM

As i say in fb

Folk dance and song society in Britain

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 13 Oct 22 - 07:39 PM

I still await responses from either the treasurer or the chairperson - or their mouthpiece!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not holding my breath.
The whole thing stinks.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 14 Oct 22 - 02:13 AM

Looking at fb posts on this subject I wonder whether the whole of the Mission state aims and objectives of EFDSS should be revisited to consider the inclusion of other countries within and out with England that is customs and songs performed in England that are imported with immigrants and are now part of the customs traditional calendar

Irish dances seem to be one example and of course many songs known as "Irish" are not really Irish? ~ the Gaelic and Irish songs is a grey area

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 24 - 02:22 PM

Well, the name has not been changed yet...

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 29 Sep 24 - 05:06 PM

No, they decided not to move ahead with the proposal....

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Oct 24 - 02:37 AM

Good, it would involve a waste of money