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why do singers take so long to start?

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Big Al Whittle 14 Aug 15 - 11:09 PM
Deckman 15 Aug 15 - 12:46 AM
Big Al Whittle 15 Aug 15 - 01:11 AM
GUEST,Musket digging out his notes 15 Aug 15 - 02:57 AM
Jack Campin 15 Aug 15 - 03:38 AM
SunrayFC 15 Aug 15 - 04:02 AM
Big Al Whittle 15 Aug 15 - 06:57 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 15 Aug 15 - 07:49 AM
GUEST,# 15 Aug 15 - 08:19 AM
GUEST 15 Aug 15 - 09:31 AM
GUEST 15 Aug 15 - 09:35 AM
GUEST 15 Aug 15 - 10:26 AM
GUEST,Sol 15 Aug 15 - 10:28 AM
GUEST,crazy little woman 15 Aug 15 - 10:32 AM
Big Al Whittle 15 Aug 15 - 11:49 AM
Bill D 15 Aug 15 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,# 15 Aug 15 - 02:50 PM
Don Firth 15 Aug 15 - 03:04 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 15 Aug 15 - 05:09 PM
Joe Offer 15 Aug 15 - 06:01 PM
Uncle_DaveO 15 Aug 15 - 06:16 PM
Deckman 15 Aug 15 - 06:50 PM
Jack Campin 15 Aug 15 - 07:22 PM
Don Firth 15 Aug 15 - 09:24 PM
Deckman 15 Aug 15 - 10:31 PM
Joe Offer 15 Aug 15 - 10:56 PM
Don Firth 16 Aug 15 - 01:25 AM
Don Firth 16 Aug 15 - 01:34 AM
Ged Fox 16 Aug 15 - 04:59 AM
GUEST 16 Aug 15 - 05:16 AM
Ged Fox 16 Aug 15 - 06:23 AM
Jack Campin 16 Aug 15 - 07:06 AM
GUEST,Warwick Slade 16 Aug 15 - 07:08 AM
GUEST,Warwick Slade 16 Aug 15 - 07:15 AM
Will Fly 16 Aug 15 - 07:29 AM
GUEST,Warwick Slade 16 Aug 15 - 07:48 AM
Will Fly 16 Aug 15 - 08:00 AM
Airymouse 16 Aug 15 - 10:34 AM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 16 Aug 15 - 12:19 PM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 16 Aug 15 - 01:26 PM
Big Al Whittle 16 Aug 15 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,Musket 16 Aug 15 - 02:55 PM
Tattie Bogle 16 Aug 15 - 08:33 PM
Big Al Whittle 17 Aug 15 - 04:14 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 17 Aug 15 - 07:14 AM
GUEST 17 Aug 15 - 09:10 AM
Ged Fox 17 Aug 15 - 09:12 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 17 Aug 15 - 10:12 AM
GUEST,Desi C 17 Aug 15 - 10:48 AM
GUEST,leeneia 17 Aug 15 - 10:55 AM
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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 11:09 PM

having said that, the Coppers were always pretty organised. they didn't piss about, they always got on with it.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 12:46 AM

This might be a long posting. I think it's time to put this frequant complaint to rest. I hope that I can do that wisely and without starting any more useless arguments.

Let me try explain just where I'm coming from regarding this subject of the use of books during song sessions, versus non-acceptance of this practice.

I'll dare to include my long time friend of sixty two years in my explaination:

Don Firth and I met in Seattle in 1953, and we soon became submerged in the "hoot scene." "Hoots", as we knew them then, were a unique kind of gathering of folk singers and quite magical. There were several elements that stood out, one being that anyuone who attended was invited to attend, and anyone who performed was expected to perform well and without the use of any prompts like books, or crib sheets, etc. These hoots were where Don and I, and many others, grew up musically, both as musicians and as performers. In those days, the living rooms were filled with the best of the best, and we all learned from each other.

But that time is long gone.

Somewhere in the mid 1970's, the late John Dwyer, and several other fine singers, started the Seattle "song circles." John was also a strong participant in the early hoots and he was well steeped in the hoot traditions of no books, etc. Very quickly, the 'song circles' became very popular. And from what I've read on MC, are also popular in Europe.

But also, much to the consternation of us old foggies,(and that includes Don and I) the dreaded "Blue Book" appeared on the scene. "Oh horrors of all horrors", we all yelled. "This will never do ... it's a sin ..."

But, the times had changed, and just like the genie in bottle, there weren't no puttin' it back!

Is this a bad thing? Of course not. Things change, people change, times change. The "Blue book" has encouraged generations now to enjoy music with increasing depth.

The thing that I have to remember is that the song circles of today are NOT the hoots of yesterday. And they never will be.

That's why I no longer fight th delemma. My answer is twofold: I no longer attend any song circles, and I host private, invitation only, "hoots" when I wish.

So ... I hope I haven't bored you, but I thought this distinction between "hoots" and "song circles" might help. CHEERS, bob(deckman)nelson


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 01:11 AM

Surely the greatest period - i envy you all the wonderful music and musicians you must have encountered.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Musket digging out his notes
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 02:57 AM

I may have mentioned this before in thinly disguised other threads.

When I started going to folk clubs, nobody used books or sang to paper. Amongst other things, most clubs were of the stage and facing audience variety. OK, the singaround cum library sessions are inclusive I suppose and many people who wouldn't have even tried to get up and sing in those environments can now do so.

But you know what? When I hear a bloody good singer and / or guitarist and look round the room to see idiots flicking through their books deciding what they are singing next, I can't help feeling they have a bit of a nerve. Anyone would think the whole bloody pub is eagerly awaiting their next rendition of Wild Mountain Thyme.

No problem with people not being quite ready. It means they are here to listen to others as well as rattle out their own offerings.

Mind you, when those with books kindly compliment my playing, I do try to gently point out that it isn't some talent or other, but learning the song properly and dispensing with the props improves the rendition. If you want an audience, you owe it to them to do your best. Not the best they have heard but the best you can give.

When I do go to singarounds, and I help run a couple for that matter, I increasingly sing with my eyes shut. Mainly because staring at the reading room of a fucking library removes the will to live.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 03:38 AM

I've never heard of a singaround in a library before.

"Join in the famous blues jam in the British Museum Reading Room"?


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: SunrayFC
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 04:02 AM

I'm saying nothing!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 06:57 AM

'I'm saying nothing!'

from the man who wrote Ringbinder Blues...!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 07:49 AM

well steve, I should add, that the problem of people talking in the song circle is not confined to when it is my turn. but maybe it was just an innocent enquiry eh steve....

don and deckman seem to have the right idea...leave those amateur endeavours and have by invitation only sessions with " real " singers ! should be a hoot !. it probably leaves pros and lesser singers happier.
mind you I do agree with musket that it is bad manners endlessly looking through binders etc , though imo, that applies whether the person performing is greatly accomplished or less so.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 08:19 AM

It sounds like it's a perennial problem. Because it seems to be, would someone please explain the difference(s) between

Song circles
Open mics
Jams

and other terms used by the informed to designate where and how they display or share their talents?

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 09:31 AM

Al, you wanna get together? you seem adrift in lifes waterways...


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 09:35 AM

not that I wish to "barge" in!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 10:26 AM

"...But you know what? When I hear a bloody good singer and / or guitarist and look round the room to see idiots flicking through their books deciding what they are singing next, I can't help feeling they have a bit of a nerve. Anyone would think the whole bloody pub is eagerly awaiting their next rendition of Wild Mountain Thyme....">

I agree 100%.
I hate when people prep their next song or check their emails/facebook when someone is singing. It is totally disrespectful. Wait till the song is finished then do what you have to, you ignoramus.

It would be great to see everybody at a session check their phones en mass throughout the turn of one of these offenders. Maybe then they would get the message.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 10:28 AM

Sorry forgot to fill in "From" box. Above post from Sol.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 10:32 AM

So, Don, everybody's supposed to be exactly like you, or you'll start yelling?

People's minds differ. It may be that some simply find it impossible to memorize. People's lives differ. Some may not have the time to memorize. Personalities differ. A book or page may simply be a prop that dispels nervousness.

Some old folkies sneer at new singers and then they wonder why folk music is a dying art.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 11:49 AM

Sol gimme a ring. achat with a fellow folksinger is never time wasted.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 01:20 PM

It would take several hours and many paragraphs to totally discuss the many issues and explanations for the differences between people and their approach and abilities.... here is a semi-short one.

There are several different types of 'singaround'.. there are public, **open** ones with few rules, designed to just encourage music. These, as noted, can be pretty good or pretty bad.

There are similar ones, but with topics named days or weeks in advance, meant to stimulate people to look up songs and reduce the decision making process...(this has been the general way the Open Sing of FSGW has operated for over 40 years.) A topic can either help one choose and learn a song... or scare the amateur who 'likes music' but has problems with finding source material...(not everyone has 40 years of collecting books and LPs...etc.)
   IF one attends these, there WILL be highs & lows, and there are fairly good singers who have a high pain threshold but who like sharing and helping newcomers. The FSGW sing sorts them out pretty efficiently, but has gone thru its own stages. When I first arrived, it was "the place to be" once a month... but when a few better musicians could no longer be there, others simply did as Don & Deckman explained, and opted out. A personal decision, but tending to water down even further the overall 'quality'. This is further complicated by where meeting are held.. in public hall with plenty of room (as FSGW did for many years) or private homes with varying degrees of comfort and accessibility.

Now-- the main issue... there are also just different types of people. There are those who are **musicians** who do music almost every day, whether professionally, or as dedicated, competent amateurs who absorb folk music and its history like a sponge. Then there are those who really like the music, but whose daily life may be guided by many other things and turn to singing/playing as a nice, but occasional thing.... or who only discovered the idea of a 'singaround' recently. Sometimes these develop into serious, talented folk, but we never find out if they are discouraged by being snubbed or ridiculed in early attempts.

Then there are seriously different... for want of a better term... 'brain types' who process and memorize words quite differently and efficiently. (I MUST usually see a song in print as I learn it.... my brain often cannot follow a song I don't already know. I DO make very attempt to learn it if I intend to sing it in public, but if it is not something I expect to add to my permanent repertoire, or if months or even years pass between it being needed, I may resort to a small crib sheet.
   This bring up something referred to above by others.... I will NOT attempt to do a song is I cannot be fairly sure I can handle it WITH a crib sheet... and I have posted before that IF I can close my eyes and not tell whether someone is using a sheet, I am fine.

..and of course, along with varying abilities in memorizing, there are personality & psychological approaches to performing in public. I knew one guy who, when in the audience, could supply missing words for others, but when singing the same song himself, would stumble. I think it has something to do with 'seeing' the audience and being distracted by their reactions. (Thus the suggestion about closing ones eyes when singing...or at least looking at the floor...)

   None of all this matters to YOU if you simply cannot take the mediocre along with the good to excellent. Private, invitation events are one answer.... but if you ARE competent, it helps if you occasionally 'serve as a good example' and explicate TO the newbies and wannabes some of these basic issues. If you DO attend singarounds, I think that some effort should be made [in the name of the group and probably anonymously] to clarify how awkward fumbling and mumbling can affect the enjoyment for others.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 02:50 PM

Bill, many thanks. Most of it's what I'd thought, but some of what you wrote is new to me. Although I'm aware your writing was meant for a wider audience, it was a big help in answering my question.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 03:04 PM

Perhaps my upbringing was strange, Crazy Little Woman, but I was always taught that if you want the rewards, you have to do the work.

Some good observations and suggestions, there, Bill D.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 05:09 PM

and what are the rewards, don ?....other than being confident of not needing props or reminders.   however, some preparation would be nice even in amateur application.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 06:01 PM

Don, did you know Merritt Herring? I think he came from your area. He was one of the best singers I've had the privilege of knowing. He worried about forgetting songs in the last years of his life, so he kept his lyrics in a looseleaf binder.
I'd kill to get a copy of that binder.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 06:16 PM

When I sing, I want to be--and am--personally
involved in the communication of the song (most
commonly a song that tells a story), and a big
part of that is the personal eye contact with
listeners, with my being visibly involved in
"telling" the song to listeners.

If the audience is too large to make ACTUAL
eye contact, my eyes run through the audience,
which gives the listeners the feeling that I'm
looking at various other listeners, and gives
me much the same feeling about communicating
the song.

As I see it, singing from a paper or book
(or tablet, I suppose) prevents both of those
functions. YMMV.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 06:50 PM

Merritt was a treasure and a joy to behold. If I ever had to assemble a list of my very top ten favorite singers and persons, he would be on that list. bob(deckman)nelson


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 07:22 PM

As I see it, singing from a paper or book prevents both of those functions.

You may have that disability but plenty of other people don't. Singing or playing effectively from a sheet is a skill worth learning. Try it sometime.

Was this guy lazy or a beginner? (He's playing his own composition).

Piazzolla: Resurrecion del Angel

Bill D's point about things going better on theme nights fits with what I've observed. I think it simply narrows the available choices to what people with minds like that can cope with; give them a whole folder to choose from and they act with all the decisiveness of an earthworm in the middle of a wet road.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 09:24 PM

Yeah, Joe, I first met Merritt Herring in 1960 at one of the Berkeley Folk Festivals. Fantastic singer!   He moved up to the Seattle area and manifested himself at the Seattle Song Circle meetings in the late 1970s. He was a regular, every Sunday evening—at least until the dreaded "blue book" started showing up, and then he—and a fair number of others—started making themselves scarce.

Along with "Rise Up Sinking" (a good collection as far as learning words is concerned, even if they have been bowdlerized and rendered "politically correct") as the "official and ordained hymnal," plus watching people stagger into the meetings laden down with a stack of song books and three-ring binders, mull through their libraries while others waited, then regale the assembled company with feeble attempts at Jacques Brel songs, for cripe's sake (!!) was a bloody waste of a perfectly good Sunday evening.

That's when the singers like Merritt Herring, Bob Nelson, John Dwyer, Stan James, John and Sally Ashford, and others decided that there were better things to do with their time.   Wotthehell! Sunday evening. Masterpiece Theatre is on TV, so….   

=======

Fair question, pete.

One aspect is simply loving the song and wanting to keep it. And one way of keeping it is to memorize it, so you can hear it any time you want, even if it's silently in your own mind.

Another is to be able to sing it—and sing it well, not just by rote. One of my voice teachers had me bring my guitar to lessons and sing whatever song I was working on at the time. As I sang it, he would often stop me and say, "Now, what does that line (or phrase, or word) mean?" Now, he knew perfectly well, he just wanted to make sure that I knew what it meant, and was not just singing the song by rote.

The key to really putting a song across to others is to know what it is you are singing about. And it's next to impossible to do that—with feeling—unless you have the song solidly memorized.

And then the reward of enthusiastic and genuine applause, indicating that the audience you are singing for at the time enjoyed your rendition of the song. And if you can do this consistently with all the songs you sing, you might qualify for

Financial rewards. And who knows how far that can go?

Early on, as I was first learning songs, I sang at "hootenannies," parties, generally in private homes, where folk song enthusiasts would get together and sing for each other. We were all working hard at learning songs, so there were no song books or crib sheets in evidence. We brought our particular collection of songs in our memories.

After I'd been doing this for maybe five or six years, and had developed a repertoire of maybe a hundred or so songs (I also studied up on where they came from, which also informed me as to how the song should be sung), I was approached by a jazz musician friend who often attended these "hoots" just to listen. His day job was working for the Seattle Public Library, developing programs for the newly formed educational television channel based at the University of Washington, to make people aware of materials available at the library. He had put on a series of shows about jazz, his particular field, then another series about string quartets, calling on a fledgling group of students at the U. of W.'s music department—and he asked me to do a program of folk songs and ballads with explanations about the backgrounds of the songs. Since I had learned a number of songs from songbooks and records I had checked out at the library, this would not be a problem. I panicked a bit at the thought of doing a series of live television shows, but he assured me that I would do fine.

I did manage to bring it off, and I was told that the library--and the U. of W.--were happy with the programs.

Important point for the purpose of this particular discussion: this was before the days of teleprompters, and the small, mostly student-run station didn't have the personnel to do me up a bunch of cue-cards. I had to rely solely on my memory! There were a number of near coronaries during the series, but my careful memorization of the songs helped me to muddle through.

I muddled through well enough, apparently, because I got a number of offers for singing jobs from people who watched the series—including an offer for a steady job from a man who was just about to open what turned out to be Seattle's nicest coffeehouse, next door to the art and foreign film theater that he owned—hence the name of the coffeehouse, "The Place Next Door."

That involved singing four or five half-hour sets per evening, three evenings a week. It was a steady, on-going job, and it paid, not lavishly, but well and regularly! It paid my rent and kept me fed!!

This, in turn, led to other singing jobs, some at private parties, but mostly at nearby schools and colleges. Each singing job led to others.

I was off and running!! Upthread, at 14 Aug 15 - 06:17 PM, I mention a number other singing jobs I've had, including at the 1962 Seattle World's Fair.

I have a whole bookshelf full of song books and academic ballad study books, and big shelf in the living room of folk music LPs, another shelf of CDs, I keep my repertoire of a few hundred songs and ballads in a couple of three ring binders (alphabetized) along with set lists and concert programs, and other related notes and materials. I also keep the same materials on my computer, safely backed up on flash drives.

The only "visual aid" I use when I'm performing is my planned concert program or set list taped to the side of my guitar, so a quick glance will show me what song is next. These, however, are not chiseled in stone. I can make last minute changes if I deem it necessary.   

This post is getting pretty long, so I'll end it here. If anyone is interested, I can post a rundown on my procedure for memorizing songs.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 10:31 PM

Great posting Don. You might remember that early on, it was YOU who taught me so much, especially with tips about just how to memorize the words to the songs I was trying to memorize. My dim memory tells me that, as you suggested, I actually taped to words to a ballad I was struggnig with, to the bathroom mirror. That way, even though I was supposed to be shaving my young face, my "next song" was always in view! bob(deckman)nelson


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 10:56 PM

Now, be nice, Don. After all, please realize that I am associate editor of Rise Again, sequel to the Rise Up Singing Songbook. However, when I saw this song in the galleys, I remembered that I was the associate editor, not the editor:

    The gypsy
    [trav'ling] rover came over the hill...

I won some battles, but not all of them...

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 01:25 AM

My big battle with "political correctness" occurred off and on from a song I learned from Walt Robertson, who, in turn, had learned it from Leadbelly.

The opening verse, which becomes the chorus, goes:

Black girl, black girl, don't lie to me,
Tell me, where did you sleep last night?
"In the pines, in the pines,
"And I shivered when the cold winds blow."

A poignant song of a young woman whose husband was killed in a railroad accident.

I got pounced on because of the "black girl" lyrics. Not "politically correct!" I shouldn't sing it!

I sang it for two young women, Lynn, a folk black singer, and Rosetta, a non-singing operator I worked with when I was with the telephone company in the 1980s. Both liked the song and said they were not at all offended to hear it sung by a white folk singer. They both told me to keep right on singing it.

Lynn had her own problems. People (white people) were on her case because she (horror of horrors!!) didn't sing blues and didn't want to. She liked ballads and sang them very well indeed.

Reminds me of Marian Anderson, a rich voiced operatic contralto, who, when they finally let her sing in "white" venues, expected her to sing only spitiuals!

On "Black Girl," I've heard a few white singers wimp out and sing it "Little Girl...." Totally limp! Gutless!!

Sorry for the thread drift…. Now, back to our regular broadcast.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 01:34 AM

'Scuse me:

"Lynn, a black folk singer..." (Or a young woman who sang folk songs who just happened to be black).

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Ged Fox
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 04:59 AM

Aha - a useful tip from Don for those who use crib-sheets at singarounds - keep them in "ring binders (alphabetized.)" That makes searching time much shorter, and it makes it easy to remove the songs that you have memorised. (I was once asked if my fat folder contained all the songs I know - my answer was "No, it contains a few of the songs I like but don't know.")
And, in these days of cheap computers and cheap printers, have the songs typed in a large enough size to read comfortably at a glance. (I prefer 14pt Verdana.)
If that makes the song too big to fit on 2 A4 sheets, then cut out verses until it does fit.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 05:16 AM

Perhaps there is a place for singing with a ring binder but I for one am not talented enough to use them

I stand (not sit..) in awe of people who can manage to concentrate on reading words and sing them with feeling at the same time. Snag is, I rarely come across such people.

Call me thick, but I thought those around you were supposed to be listening to you as you offer them the courtesy of listening to them.

Two things here. Not learning a song before performing it in public and sat reading whilst some poor bugger is trying to sing.

Both are bad manners.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Ged Fox
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 06:23 AM

Well, anonymous Guest, we all have different talents. I learnt the skill of singing with a book in front of me when I was a boy in a church choir. As far as folk-singing in England goes, I think it only a slight exaggeration to say that every non-gentry male singer in rural parts, up until the mid twentieth century, learnt his craft in exactly the same way. From the late nineteenth century onwards, school singing lessons (using books) would have been a starting point for working class children everywhere.

Obviously, there are many other non-literate strands in the fabric but, from the time of Wynken de Worde at least, singing from a song sheet has been a major part of communal singing.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 07:06 AM

As far as folk-singing in England goes, I think it only a slight exaggeration to say that every non-gentry male singer in rural parts, up until the mid twentieth century, learnt his craft in exactly the same way. From the late nineteenth century onwards, school singing lessons (using books) would have been a starting point for working class children everywhere.

There is a book about the social history of hymns in Victorian England which points out that they were THE mass literature of the time. Novelists like Dickens or populist poets like Tennyson came nowhere near the readership of a popular hymn writer. Their reach was far greater than the school system. And hymns always meant hymnbooks. It wasn't just recognized male "singers", it was the entire literate public of both sexes. (You didn't get delays in a service because the numbers were there for you, up on a board).

Anyway, there are already innumerable threads here about using written texts or not when singing. If I'd expected this thread to turn into yet another orgy of selfrighteousness by people who can't sing and read at the same time, I wouldn't have started it.

If you haven't yet learned how to work your use of a cribsheet into a fast-moving, slick act that conceals its considerable stagecraft, watch Les Barker in action.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Warwick Slade
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 07:08 AM

Give me a break. I am in my seventies and sing and play guitar every week and try to not repeat songs too often.Therefore i have a choice of using a prompt sheet, previously prepared with big print, or singing the same 10 songs I can remember. I would be criticised in each case. I could, of course, spend the week prior to the club learning the words but I have many more important things to do like taking the dog for a walk, talking to my wife or watching soaps on TV. I have a life!

If you do not want to see us amateurs play go and see Martin Carthy tune a guitar or Bob Dylan forget his words. See non of us are perfect.

By the way at the weekly club I attend all the above crimes are committed and all are forgiven with love because we respect each other and our wish to perform, however inadequate.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Warwick Slade
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 07:15 AM

By the way again, if you are ever in Wimborne, Dorset on a Thursday night come along to the Rising Sun Everyone is welcome as variety is the spice of life.
You can borrow guitar tuners, reading glasses and, on a bad night, even a banjo.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 07:29 AM

I think the key phrase in your post, Warwick, is "the wish to perform". To me, this implies that the performer is centered on self, rather than on the audience.

Unfortunately,the wish to perform doesn't automatically confer the right to be heard.

As for people in their seventies - well, I'm one of them, and happy to perform for 2-3 hours off the cuff, which I do regularly. I wouldn't in a million years claim to be the greatest performer in the world - or even in my village - but I've worked hard over 50 years or so to try and give people pleasure and earn a few bob now and then. Which has been very enjoyable for me and, I hope, for the audiences I've played to. (I've also had a full life!)

Of course none of us is perfect - we all stumble occasionally - but good preparation minimises this, and the work put in reaps its own reward when you get to be "at one" with the audience.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Warwick Slade
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 07:48 AM

I take you point Will but we are confusing players, like yourself, who could be disc ribbed as semi- pros and the great unwashed who just like to perform with no ambition to become paid entertainers, or where the audience pays to attend. I also feel, in these days of equal opportunities everyone has the 'right' to be heard.
Incidentally I have done gigs where I manage 90 mins on stage (2-3 hours a bit too long) but that is not at the same club every week
Regards
Warwick


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 08:00 AM

And regards to you as well, Warwick! Yes, I suppose I could be called "semi-pro" - used to be fully pro at one time - but I've never considered an unpaid performance any less demanding or less worthy of preparation than a paid one. It's still people sat in front of you, after all.

Incidentally, if you've done 90 minutes on stage - paper or not- then I say, "Well done!"

I suppose that, over the years, I've sat as an audience member in many folk clubs on several occasions. Latterly - by which I mean the last 10 years or so - I have been so bored by whole evenings of lamentable, paper-shuffling, note-peering performers, that I've lost the will to live. I vowed I just wouldn't go back to those places. So, if I sound a little jaded about all this, there are reasons for it!

I run a monthly music session/singaround down here in Sussex, and we regularly have attendees who sing from sheets. It's a singaround, really - certainly not a club - and I have absolutely no problem with it at all, though I do encourage people to have a crack at doing it all without benefit of paper.

At the other monthly session - also in Sussex - that I help to run, we don't use paper on the whole. And it's a cracking session - fiddles, guitars, mandolins, nyckelharpa, whistles, serpent - why, I even encourage a chorus of shaky eggs when singing one of my 1920s bits of trivia!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Airymouse
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 10:34 AM

The songs I have learned first hand are like companions who are always with me. But I like to sings two versions of a song in tandem, one of which is my companion and the other of which is something I learned from a CD or the internet etc. I am 76 and I find sometimes that I have to stop to remember the opening line of the other song. It's like priming a pump: once I get the 1st line the rest flows naturally.
Those of you with a tradition of singarounds don't realize how lucky you are. Here (roughly Floyd VA) there are mostly two types of singers, performers and contestants. I have listened to Mary Lomax sing songs from her Ballad Book, sometimes stopping to look at a verse or two. And no, at 88, her voice is not so good as Joan Baez's. But it was a great privilege to have heard her.
If you require polished performances, you will eventually get the top acts; what you will lose are the songs that have hung on for centuries and then disappeared.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 12:19 PM

Well Warwick, were I in Wimborne on a Thursday night, I reckon I be glad to come along and participate in your open , easy ,and respectful sing around.                               You done well , don , but for meself, at my time of life and other commitments, I am happy singing and playing my own songs on local level without getting paid....and with a safety net in front, just in case !.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 01:26 PM

I just clicked to send an email for error non post , but I see it has posted .......?


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 02:38 PM

aplace with a similarly liberal attitude)
BIG BIG NEWS!!!!!
We're starting a new open mic every Sunday from next Sunday August 23rd
8pm-11pm
At the restaurant at
http://walledgardenmoreton.co.uk/
(DT2 8RG)
host: Big Al Whittle
All those of a musical/performing bent welcome
Usual suspects particularly welcome!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 02:55 PM

Bad timing Al. I had a meal there last month when Mrs Musket and I had a walking holiday with the alleged greyhound in Dorset last month.

We stayed at Whatsit St Andrews and coincidentally visited Mrs Musket's Aunty in Wimborne.

You and I both played the 'cow in Mansfield years ago. Bibliography was something practiced elsewhere back in those days.

By the way, whoever mentioned Les Barker. Yeah, poets can use notes. So can musicians but either way, poets aren't trying to concentrate on tune and often accompaniment whilst reading.

Before Les started resorting to scripts, presumably after he stopped having a dog to prompt him, he once, without cribsheet, chased the first Mrs Musket round the stage and rest of a marquee with a cucumber.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 08:33 PM

Cracking up at what Warwick Slade said! YESS! Love it!
Singing in an informal singaround is singing a song, not "a performance" to my mind anyway. As I said higher up the thread, too many people talking about and confusing entirely different scenarios here. If I get invited to do a floor spot at our local folk club, yes, I will try to get up there on stage, with a mike, and lights burning my eyeballs out and sing a song i know from memory. Then I'm performing.
But next week, with the same people, down at the pub session, if I want to sing something I know pretty well, but haven't yet fully memorised completely, I might put the words in front of me and glance at them when needed: that's participating, not performing.
And for other sessions now, I don't take big folders: just pick 2 or 3 song-sheets which I might never use, because, as others have said, you might change your mind about what's the best song to sing next, according to what's gone before.
I' also getting on a bit and recognise that there are still things in the memory bank that I learned at school or in my late teens, but trying to learn new songs now, becomes increasingly difficult. I have a far better memory for tunes than I do for words: that's just a facet of how my brain works, and you who can learn song lyrics after reading them through twice are surely blessed: but DON'T try to tell everyone they can do the same, because we are NOT all made the same way.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 04:14 AM

on the flip side, there are singers who can't wait to get up there...that sort of Julie Andrews vibe. just can't wait to brighten our lives...!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 07:14 AM

There are some who can use crib sheets and give a great performance with the audience hardly noticing use of sheets if they are noticed at all. There are others who stick their nose into the paper and don't look or interact with the audience at all. Likewise I know some who use no crib sheets and give great consistent performances whilst there are others who don't use crib sheets and can hardly finish any song without fumbling to a halt half way through because they've forgotten the words. Surely the issue is not crib sheet or no crib sheet as much as being prepared enough to give the best performance you can? For many people being prepared will mean having a crib sheet to hand. If they give as good a rendition of the song as they can though where is the harm?

I agree the regular fumbling about because you haven't considered what you might sing that night, the not even knowing what key it should be in, and the making a noise during other people's songs are annoying.

There are occassions though where someone may, because of the way things have gone, choose to sing something they weren't expecting to be singing that night. That is often the way people share maybe less known songs.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 09:10 AM

It isn't the crib sheet per se. It's using it as an alternative to learning the song at all at any level and, the real crime, flicking through your notes rather than listening to others.

Many people just cannot commit a song to memory, but a working knowledge of the song sounds far better than sight reading, and surely if it is for entertaining others, you owe your audience at least that much?

I usually have a piece of paper with first lines of set and key sigs blue tacked to my guitar.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Ged Fox
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 09:12 AM

"not even knowing what key it should be in," - As an unaccompanied singer, I very rarely consider what key I might be singing in; I suspect I generally sing in the key of the previous song. Occasionally, and relevant to this thread, where the song extends over a greater range than usual, I might take a moment or two to sing the extreme part to myself to make sure that it is pitched right for me.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 10:12 AM

Yeagh Ged sorry I wasn't clear enough there. I am not talking about unaccompanied. I'm talking guitarist/singers here. There is a regular at our club who plays guitar and sings with one of those Ipads for words/chords etc. He regularly stops at the first chorus mumbling "oh wrong key.....let's try again" and he restarts shifting the capo up and down the neck. I've seen others do similar. Yet all that is needed is to remember what key you sing it in; write it at the top if using a crib sheet; or save it in said key on your Ipod thing. It must be embarrassing as much as anything else. I sometimes sing unaccompanied myself so know what you mean.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 10:48 AM

I couldn't agree more. When I started in Avoustic/folk/open mic clubs I used Foldrs or word sheets. I ALWAYS made sure I had the right Words ready and my guitar tuned ready to go. And soon as I could I lernt to memorize the words
But it amazes me how many people neithr have the right words ready, and even worse (and many pros do this)do not have the guitar/instrument tuned up. Ok some folkies change the tuning between songs but surely they could be in tune for the first song, and not spend quite so long retuning in between songs, it's very boring and very annoying. BE PREPARED performers please and if you MUST talk between the songs make it bloody interesing ok


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 10:55 AM

Best of luck with your new session at the Walled Garden, Moreton, Al.

Have you started a thread about it?


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