2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: curmudgeon
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 08:02 PM

Snail - The living at least have a chance to defend themselves.

On another front, has anyone posting to this thread even bought the book?

I've gotten to the time of his desertion from the army. Anyone else gotten that far?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 07:52 PM

snail, cos he disagreed with people - perhaps expressed himself badly in some situations.

nobody's trashing anyone - except MacColl.

If people wanted to take his words and misconstrue them into bad behaviour - its the last thing he would have wanted. Really he was okay.

My songs take all my money, all my time and they don't get anywhere in the folkworld - cos I think 'traditional' music is a load of bullshit. An insult to my intellect. Nobody handed this pile of rubbish down to me. I've suffered from the shits who have twisted MacColl's words more than most, although not as much as the ones of my generation who are dead.

But it doesn't mean Ewan wasn't a great and decent human being.

rest easy

al

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 07:34 PM

Trash the reputations of the living to protect the memory of the dead?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 07:25 PM

Geeze, How the hell could 2 individuals have done all this stuff, Impossible, I say. Who has that kind of energy, that kind of compassion for others, that kind of talent, that kind of free time, that kind of orginisational skills, that kind of mind to be able to trap all that data, that kind of willingness to collect then to share that collection so freely, that much ink to have written so much & been so dispised by so many. They couldn't even enter the US for a period of years to perform they were hated so much by the US governement, that says something right there that they must've been doing something humane, God, how the hell did anyone not overlook some of their human failings. How the hell do any of us get by without being perfect, always having someone tapping us on the damn shoulder, "can I have a word with you?" or "A moment of your time, please?", "fuck off you pesty folkie & leave me the fuck alone!". You all should give it a rest & be happy that they did what was alomst imposible & stop digging up the dirt that's best left over the poor fucker's grave. I don't think any of us hasn't pissed off at least a few folks when it comes to music but there are none of us here that have done so much for it as they have, tough shit. From most of what's been posted here with very few exceptions they've slighted so few & been so more than for most every one else in the many fields that their lives covered that those who want more keep digging but leave the dirt that over his body alone, there's nothing left their but a dead body & there's no sense in cutting that up.

As for not knowing about all the hidden talent writing songs then or today, please, we all have only 2 ears each & if there's alway someone in one of them that cuts down your chances to half.

Barry

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 05:50 PM

Jim,What was the reason for them not liking festivals,did they feel that they didnt fit into a local community ,as well as the best folk clubs?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 05:07 PM

Jim .I think my posts have been balanced,I have pointed out many of their good points.
I did not say she ran it for the benefit of professional songwriters,
WLD gave some examples of professional songwriters whose songs did suit the group ,Bogle, Warshaw and Wooton.
WLD,You are right they were/are honest people,financially and creatively.
Jim,I too,along with many others in the folk scene have attended many CND,Anti Apartheid, and Anti poll tax demonstrations.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 03:51 PM

Cap'n
Who said she ran NCS for the benefit of 'professional songwriters. Her aim was to encourage songwriting and to circulate the many good songs that were being written by non-professionals. I can think of very few professional songwriters whose songs would suit the NCS.
Again, as with the Critics Group, it was an example of them being prepared to spend time helping other singers, not a particularly prevalent attitude among professional singers then or now.
How did they 'overemphasise' the importance of NCS. She just did it off her own bat for free and ploughed back anything that was made into the next issue.
"Songwriters wanted to have more control over publishing of their material"
I think you're right, which reminds me of an earlier thread discussing the reluctance to share material.
Sorry about the Ewan/Peggy confusion regarding the dearth of songwriters.
I believe she said something similar on television. Maybe she felt, like me, that much songwriting has become far too introspective and private. Tom Munnelly put it well in The Journal of Music in Ireland when he wrote, "you feel like tapping them on the shoulder and asking permission to come in".
This does not mean there aren't good songwriters about, just not as many IMO.
Not the case in Ireland with Con 'Fada' O'Driscoll, Sean Moan, Fintan Vallely, Tim Lyons et al - and of course Scotland has the magnificent Adam McNaughton.
Ewan and Peggy's contact with the rest of the revival changed radically after the John Snow fiasco, but this didn't mean they were not aware of what was happening - they just chose to work with the Critics - thanks be to whoever!
Having said this, they were leading figures in The Peace Movement, The Anti-Apartheid campaign, various anti-fascist organisations, the Folksingers For Freedom in Viet Nam (proud to say I stood shoulder to elbow with Peggy in Grosvenor Square (would have been shoulder-to-shoulder but I'm not tall enough). It goes without saying they were fairly unstinting with their time and energy - and there are only so many hours in the day.
Of course Ewan wasn't perfect - who is; but he must have been a baaad, baaad boy to deserve to be slagged off eighteen years after his death.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 03:50 PM

I think I really need to see Folk Britannia to find out what really did go on. Is it on DVD?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 02:58 PM

well at the time , there wasn't an internet - and there certainly weren't many other people out there encouraging you.

And Ewan and Peggy made it clear that publishing the song in NCS would protect your interest - and not exploit you. Honestly Dick - they were really bloody nice.

they deserve better than all this slagging off.

I hate to think what they're going to say about someone like me who's been a bit of a bastard in his time.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 02:50 PM

WLD The point I am making is this,and I should have phrased it better,
Some professional songwriters did send their songs to NCS,but many didnt,and didnt want to and didnt need to,therefore Peggy relying on NCS as an indicator of which new songs were being written throughout the UK,was/is not a valid way of getting a true representation and I believe they over emphasised the importance of the NCS.however NCS song books were of a high standard.
What they hadnt realised was that times change, Some Songwriters wanted to have more control over publishing of their material,and that a songwriting publication with a limited distribution[NCS],was mot necessarily the best way of publicising ones material,They preferred to bring out their own songbooks,or record them.
I have never sent any of my songs to NCS,and I am sure there are hundreds of somgwriters like me .Dick Mileshttp://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 02:10 PM

well there were a lot of other songwriters used to send there work to NCS and found the experience useful . As I remember there was the work of Eric Bogle, Miles Wooton, Jack Warshaw, as well as Ewan Peggy and Hamish's in the NCS. Are these not 'profesional songwriters of a high standard'.

I was terrifically proud of getting in NCS. My work has never found favour in the folk world, but Ewan and Peggy did me a great service in giving me that little bit of recognition that kept me going as a songwriter.

The thing about Peggy and Ewan was that they did their own thing. They were far too bohemian and plain intelligent for the world of poxy folk music - with all its stifling orthodoxies.

They didn't mind telling you something that would upset you - but so bloody what....! Most of us can't go a day without upsetting some eejit on the mudcat. Weigh that against a lifetime of achievement, and trying and committment, and be nice to his memory. please.

PS See the Lincolnshire folksong competition thread. if Peggy and Ewan hadn't encouraged me, I might never have made it to be alongside the Seal Sanctuary on The Skegness website - not to mention writing the 17th most popular football song in Germany!

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 01:44 PM

I told you when PEGGY made the remark,LATE 1980,S.
Cap'n,
Ewan and Peggy were professional singers who were booked all over the UK. They organised tours for themselves (Pat did a couple for them at one time) and they played to packed houses wherever they went. At the Spinners Club in Liverpool, where I first saw them, it was necessary to book a couple of weeks in advance in order to be guaranteed to get in, Manchester (MSG) was the same. Sounds fairly successful to me. They didn't like festivals, though they appeared at Keele once - Ewan said "never again".
As far as songwriters were concerned, don't know when he made the remark but Peggy edited the New City Songster for around 20 years which included compositions from songwriters from all over the UK and Ireland;
WLD contributed a song to one issue.
Jim Carroll,
I never suggested they were not successful,just out of touch with the rest of the revival.yes we all know about New City Songster,her being editor proves nothing,professional songwriters of a high standard,publish their own songs,they do not need to send them to NCS,
This to me epitomises the mistake they made,over emphasing the importance of the singers club,and NCS.
Ewan and Peggy were gifted performers,they were excellent songwriters,and very good singers,she is also agood musicianthey were both helpful to others with research,but they also made mistakes and like all of us had feet of clay .

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 01:18 PM

"Did the British Folk Song and Dance Ensemble exist? Were MacColl and Lloyd involved with it?"
No idea if it existed - Bert and Ewan certainly weren't involved.
Personally, I think it was more likely to have been an EFDSS idea. I think MacColl assisted Ralph Rinzler to record Michael Gorman for and album called Irish Music in London Pubs, but I don't think it went any further than that
Cap'n,
Ewan and Peggy were professional singers who were booked all over the UK. They organised tours for themselves (Pat did a couple for them at one time) and they played to packed houses wherever they went. At the Spinners Club in Liverpool, where I first saw them, it was necessary to book a couple of weeks in advance in order to be guaranteed to get in, Manchester (MSG) was the same. Sounds fairly successful to me. They didn't like festivals, though they appeared at Keele once - Ewan said "never again".
As far as songwriters were concerned, don't know when he made the remark but Peggy edited the New City Songster for around 20 years which included compositions from songwriters from all over the UK and Ireland;
WLD contributed a song to one issue.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 01:12 PM

Can't be that pissed off with Ashley - she was in The Etchingham Steam Band. She used to have a stick like a hobby horse and thump it on the floor to the music. There was most of Six Hands in Tempo in that line up.

God, I hate being old.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 12:56 PM

On one occasion I was doing a support for EwanMacColl/PeggySeeger[late Eighties] .
Peggy made an astonishing remark,she said there dont seem to be many people writing good songs in England at the moment,which is the opposite of what they found in the USA.
At the time the following people were writing good songs, Peter Bond, Leon Rosselson,Anne Lister,Bill Caddick,Richard Grainger,Jez Lowe and many more,they appeared not to have heard of many of these., I didnt ask their opinion of Leon Rosselson.
IMO Ewan and Peggy became isolated,and out of touch from the rest of the folk revival,partly because they didnt like having support acts,and partly they didnt visit or get booked at many English/uk folk festivals at this time ,they tended to operate in their own isolated sphere,and were unaware what other people were doing in the British Folk Revival,much happened that did not involve the Singers Club.Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 11:28 AM

This is like a treasure hunt; one clue leads to the next.

Did the British Folk Song and Dance Ensemble exist? Were MacColl and Lloyd involved with it? Was Michael Gorman working with them in any way?

This is the link I should have given for Henry Cowell. I didn't realise which part of the site I was looking at when I harvested the address. Sounds like a man who would know what he was talking about.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 09:50 AM

"I think I'm seriously losing the plot here. Why was Henry Cowell discussing MacColl and Lloyd on a record of music by Willie Clancy and Michael Gorman?"
He wasn't
Reg Based his statement on the last sentence of this sleeve note. Neither MacColl not Lloyd are mentioned in the insert:
BIOGRAPHICAL NOTES
Michael Gorman is a 58 year old traditional fiddler from Co. Sligo, Southern Ireland.    He has "been playing fiddle since he was 8 years old.    James Gannon .of Achontry, Co..Sligo, a great fiddler, heard Michael whistling fiddle tunes and offered to teach him the fiddle if he could get hold of an instrument.    Michael got his fiddle and was apprenticed to Gannon and later to Michael Gorman, who taught every fiddler of note in West of Ireland.    Gorman soon became a notable fiddler in the county Sligo style, a style which (unlike that of Donegall) eschews heavy down-bowing and achieves its effects by highly elaborate fingering.    From being champion fiddler of the district, Michael became regional champion and later national champ.    He has represented Ireland at International folk festivals. In his younger days he was also renowned as a dancer with a nice, clean style of footwork.    Even today, after a lifetime of heavy work, he will, if moved or excited, dance a jig or a hornpipe while accompanying himself on the fiddle.    He has made many recordings for B.B.C. folk music archives, has broadcast and been in television.    During the day he works as a railway porter at Liverpool Street Station, London, and is one of the folk musicians who is helping to build the British Folk Song and.Dance Ensemble.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 09:07 AM

OK, she waffled some very embittered accusations . . .

I know what pissed her off. She doesn't like what Ewan did to songs (adapting and nicking tunes for his own work). She says they didn't 'belong' to him.
She might as well be as dismissive of Ashley Hutchings . . . hmmm, she probably has been.
Not a lot to do with "intransigence and argumentative temperament". Just "artistic differences".

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 08:56 AM

Diane Eas

Shirley Collins made some very embittered accusations against Ewan MacColl in front of millions.

...and you accused her of waffling. Clearly MacColl must have done something to seriously piss her off. Aren't you interested to know what?

Even Peggy Seeger refers to "Ewan's intransigence and argumentative temperament". Are you going to accuse her of lying too?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 08:37 AM

Shirley Collins made some very embittered accusations against Ewan MacColl in front of millions. All those (including me) who were somewhat surprised at such intemperance are not 'insulting' her by merely referring to the broadcast which she presumably wants people to see. Next time I see her in the Post Office queue it'll be the first thing I mention.

In the same series, Reg Hall was talking about some sleevenotes which he was assuming Ewan had approved. He was clearly not in full possession of the facts. As I've said, I'd hoped to see him last Friday but he wasn't there. I'll be asking him when I do see him (and if I remember and if we don't have more interesting things to talk about).

As for Frankie Armstrong, has anyone read or even seen this book from which the alleged quote is culled? I haven't. Again, I might ask her when I see her. Anybody could.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 08:23 AM

Then question or challenge them instead of insulting them or calling them liars.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 08:15 AM

Anyone who does contentious pieces to camera for network television in a programme that's been repeated more times than The Sound Of Music or The Wizard Of Oz must surely expect a fair bit of questioning and challenging. They wouldn't have agreed to take part otherwise, would they?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 07:59 AM

Folkiedave

Why not ask them?

Perhaps I will if the opportunity arises but I have to admit, I don't know any them well enough to encroach on what may be sensitive subjects.

many of the assertions are built up on myth - from people who never met him.

I don't care. I am talking about the bad-mouthing that people who did actually know him are getting for not agreeing with those who think he was utterly wonderful.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 07:11 AM

Why not ask them? I never knew MacColl all that well, just met him on a number of occasions, but the one described is not the one I recognise so I couldn't say.

One thing for certain - as I said earlier in the thread - many of the assertions are built up on myth - from people who never met him.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 06:54 AM

Jim Carroll

That is exactly what I am saying; the notes were written by Henry Cowell

I think I'm seriously losing the plot here. Why was Henry Cowell discussing MacColl and Lloyd on a record of music by Willie Clancy and Michael Gorman? By the way, is this the Henry Cowell you are talking about? If so, aren't you (to borrow a phrase) being a bit economical with the actualité by describing him as "an American collector"? Further digging on the internet shows that he was a close friend of the Seeger family having helped Peggy's mother Ruth in her career as a composer. Reg may have felt that he was a man who could speak with some authority on the subject.

Ewan and Peggy have been the target of a great deal of abuse down the years.

Why? I'd like to know. Not because I want to join in that abuse but because it will give me greater insight into the nature of the folk revival.

so much information we have is based on hearsay.

What Shirley Collins and Reg Hall have to say is not hearsay but they still get rubbished for saying it.

we do refuse to participate in this particularly distasteful exercise in grave-dancing

But does that mean that we can't talk about the fact that important players in the folk revival did have serious problems with him?

Bryan Creer

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 04:04 AM

"Are you really saying that Reg Hall quoted from the sleeve notes of a record that had no connection with MacColl and Lloyd whatsoever?   This seems utterly bizarre."
That is exactly what I am saying; the notes were written by Henry Cowell - bizarre or what?
Sorry, my earlier posting shouldn't have gone off - I hadn't finished it (anticipation of a great night of music in my local pub made my finger twitch - wasn't disappointed) This is the bit wot I rerote.

Ewan and Peggy have been the target of a great deal of abuse down the years. Contrary to the accusation that they spent a great deal of time knocking other members of the revival, neither of them wrote very much (an issue I disagreed with them on, on a number of occasions), not of their own ideas nor of their opinions of the revival, so much information we have is based on hearsay. WLD says earlier that MacColl slagged off his fellow revivalists; it would be interesting if he could produce some concrete examples of this.
We admirers of MacColl are accused of elevating him to sainthood – not true. He was a human being with human faults, yet each time we attempt to discuss him as an artist we are met with a barrage of abuse and rumours – as has been pointed out,he has been dead eighteen years, yet still – the beat goes on. We don't idolise MacColl, but we do refuse to participate in this particularly distasteful exercise in grave-dancing – as far as I'm concerned- guilty as charged.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 10:11 PM

Whatever.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Effsee
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 10:00 PM

Erm, no actually I think that might be in his "Protest Songwriter " days actually.
Och yes, let's split hairs, why not?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 09:46 PM

Effsee

I believe the song "The Manchester Rambler" was one of Ewan's early compositions from 1932.

Ah but that would be in his theatrical period rather than his folk revival days. Let's not quibble over details.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Effsee
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 09:34 PM

Mr.Mollusc,or Gastropod if you prefer, but certainly not Crustacean,..."one of the major figures in the British folk revival of the second half of the 20th century"...I believe the song "The Manchester Rambler" was one of Ewan's early compositions from 1932.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 09:05 PM

Shimrod

That is what they are being accused of and receiving on this thread."

"TheSnail" that is not true - and you know it!

Please read Diane's and Jim's posts. Until you show some evidence of having done so, I won't bother to respond to you.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 09:03 PM

I'd better make it clear that I am in no way trying to denigrate the achievements or influence of Ewan MacColl. The man will clearly go down in history as one of the major figures in the British folk revival of the second half of the 20th century not to mention his work in the theatre, his political stand and his support for public access to the countryside. He wrote some great songs. The first time ever I saw your face will probably be being discussed on a Mudcat thread in five hundred years time.

Jim Carroll

MacColl was not popular with his fellow revivalists in the early days for a number of reasons

That is a refreshing admission because the prevailing impression from some contributors up to now has been that MacColl was universally loved by all who met him and that anyone who said otherwise was dishonest, embittered or in some way mentally confused. They were also accused of getting their information at second, third or fourth hand even when they knew him personally.

I am now totally confused about the record notes business. Are you really saying that Reg Hall quoted from the sleeve notes of a record that had no connection with MacColl and Lloyd whatsoever?   This seems utterly bizarre.

I have never met or even seen Shirley Collins

You should. You would be charmed. I last saw her two days ago and she was as lovely as ever. I was in the post office a while ago when I heard this VOICE behind me. Shirley buying stamps has more music in her than many contemporary folk superstars. She is not the waffling bitter woman that Diane makes her out to be.

I don't want to take sides in the debate over MacColl's character, I just want those who do not share your opinion to be able to say so without being denigrated in the way they have on this thread.

You (Jim), Diane, Dave, Shimrod and (rather equivocally) Bryn think he was wonderful; Shirley Collins, Reg Hall and The Leveller (and, I suspect, a few others) do not.

Please help me out here; if you were in my position, what version would you accept?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 07:26 PM

"But I don't observe either of them [Shirley Collins and Reg Hall] engaging in constant, insidious character assasination!

That is what they are being accused of and receiving on this thread."

"TheSnail" that is not true - and you know it!

Comments that both of these people said ONCE, sometime in the past (and quite probably meant), have been dredged up and used as part of the barrage of 'sticks-and-stones' flung at MacColl and his reputation.

It's the posthumous character assasination, and the completely unbalanced assessment of a distinguished career, that I (and I suspect others) object to - not the fact that other figures in the post-war revival may have had disagreements with MacColl.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 03:57 PM

Can we clear up a few things with a few facts.
My comments regarding Reg Hall:
On Folk Britannia Reg quoted from the sleeve notes of an album entitled (Irish Jigs, Reels and Hornpipes - Willie Clancy and Michael Gorman', Folkways FW 6819) as being evidence of MacColl and Lloyd's aim to form "Eastern European type folk ensembles" in the early days of the revival (both Bert and Ewan, Bert particularly, hated those ensembles as being erzatz, watered down folk music. On the programme the sleeve notes were actually shown.
I have my copy of the album in front of me at the moment and I see that the notes were written by Henry Cowell. There is no indication that either Ewan or Bert had anything to do with the making of the album.
I don't know if anybody has a copy of Folk Britannia, but it should be quite easy for anybody who has to find the reference.
I was particularly saddened because of my respect for Reg's work on Irish music.
Frankie's comment on Ewan's attitude to regional material.
You have my personal involvement with Ewan and the club; you have Peggy's letter to The Living Tradition; I haven't transcribed Ewan's interview, but it's accessible at the British Library and at the Irish Traditional Music Archive in Dublin.
Please help me out here; if you were in my position, what version would you accept?
I have never met or even seen Shirley Collins so I can't say one way or the other whether her assessment is a fair one; all I can say is it doesn't tie up with mine.
MacColl was not popular with his fellow revivalists in the early days for a number of reasons; Shimrod touched on many of them quite adequately as far as I'm concerned.
How unpopular he was, was illustrated by an incident which took place during the making of 'The Travelling People' Radio Ballad, where one individual was prepared (and nearly did) sabotage the making of that programme.
As much as I find embarrassing pointing out things 'wot I rote' perhaps people might like to read the interview with Sheila Stewart in 'The Living Tradition' (issue 41, Jan, Feb 2001) and my response in the following issue (issue 42, letters page, March, April 2001).
There were also the series of exchanges in Musical Traditions, which I was involved in, when it was intimated that MacColl stole 'Shoals of Herring' from traditional singers. Can't give a date for this latter, but it was at the time of the re-issue of 'Now Is The Time For Fishing' on CD, for which (I think) I did the notes.
Around the same time Peggy was accused of refusing to allow additional material to be include on that album; in fact, she had never been asked.
Ewan and Peggy have been the target of a great deal of abuse down the years. Contrary to the accusation that they spent a great deal of time knocking other members of the revival, neither of them wrote very much, not of their own ideas nor of their opinions of the revival, so much information we have is based on hearsay.
It seems obligatory that before we can get down to discussing their work, it is still necessary to climb the shit mountain.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 02:29 PM

Shimrod

Actually, 'The Snail' I have never, ever said that MacColl was perfect.

And I have never said you did.

But I don't observe either of them [Shirley Collins and Reg Hall] engaging in constant, insidious character assasination!

That is what they are being accused of and receiving on this thread.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 02:03 PM

5himrod - there was a whole thread about Peter Kennedy last year started by my response to Rod Stradling's article. I am not going through it again.

Suffice to say anyone saves up allegations, repeats them 3 months after someone has died, who repeats those allegations on the internet and then asks for evidence to support those allegations is going the wrong way about things. (IMHO)

I did not know enough about Peter Kennedy to comment on the allegations.

And I am not fond "anything goes in folk clubs" either, and I don't see anything wrong with standards. If MacColl thought the same way and I have no idea whether he did or didn't, then good for him.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 01:56 PM

Actually, 'The Snail' I have never, ever said that MacColl was perfect. Although I admire MacColl greatly I don't think that he got everything right. Of course he had his faults, like everyone else - but he also had considerable virtues which have been obscured by the constant, petty sniping.

Actually, Peter Kennedy's achievements were pretty considerable too. But the fact is that his alleged misdemeanours don't seem to have obscured his achievements in the way that those of MacColl (who was 'guilty' of much lesser alleged sins) have been.

As for Shirley Collins and Reg Hall - I happen to admire them too (particularly Ms Collins). There is a good chance that neither of them saw eye-to-eye with MacColl (there's no law that says that they had to!). But I don't observe either of them engaging in constant, insidious character assasination!

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 01:37 PM

Jeri, I am responding on this thread to attacks made on this thread against people I admire. Please don't call me a troll for that.

Let the thread about the book BE about the book.

Tell Diane and Jim, not me.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 01:21 PM

Regarding who it's OK to criticize, it's not the criticism I object to so much as the endless repetition of the same things and the selfish lack of the common decency it would take to stay on topic. Start a new thread or use one of the numerous other Ewan MacColl-related troll threads to re-play this. Let the thread about the book BE about the book.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 01:02 PM

GUEST,Shimrod

I notice that no-one has taken up my point about Peter Kennedy.

As I recall, Peter Kennedy has had a pretty bad press. The difference between him and Ewan MacColl is that there is no solid body of supporters saying how perfect he was and that anybody who disagrees is a waffling, bitter liar.

Would you care to demonstrate how your hyotheses apply to Shirley Collins and Reg Hall?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 12:29 PM

I notice that no-one has taken up my point about Peter Kennedy. And before anyone asks why Kennedy is relevant to this discussion I will repeat that, in a very recently published book, MacColl is 'demonised' (to use Jim carrol's term) YET AGAIN, whereas, in the adjacent section, in the same book, another significant figure in the UK folk world, Peter Kennedy (who may have deserved demonisation), is let off the hook.

This contrast is just too striking to go unremarked upon. In my view there are a number of reasons why MacColl has been, and continues to be, demonised (thus unjustly obscuring his considerable achievements):

(i) A lot of people didn't like his politics.
(ii) He was not particularly influenced by contemporary fashions and popular culture. His vision was a lot broader and more mature than that. This meant that, usually by implication, he was seen to criticise some people's tastes in music - in this country the greatest crime that an individual can commit outside of murder and paedophilia. My comment about electric guitars was meant satirically - but I note that some people have taken me literally.
(iii) He was a highly influential figure but he wasn't particularly liberal with his praise - I suspect that quite a few people thought that they deserved his praise - and when he didn't comply their 'noses were put out of joint'.
(iv) He believed in, and practiced, constructive criticism. Criticism is the lifeblood of any developing artform - but a lot of people (with fragile egoes) are offended by it.
(v) He refused to sanction the 'anything goes in a folk club' ethos - in fact his ideas tended to militate against such an ethos. Thus all the comedians, would be rockers and "snigger snoggers" (to pinch Diane Easby's term) etc., etc. who flooded the clubs in the 70s/80s didn't have his 'official sanction' (which, for some unaccountable reason, they seemed to desperately need).

Now I await the comments suggesting that, by advancing these hypotheses, I am somehow paranoid or mad. Some constructive arguments to the contrary would be better - but I don't hold out much hope!

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 12:21 PM

I'm sorry Jeri but I can't relate anything in your post to anything I have said. I have no wish to tear MacColl down. I am not denying Jim's or Diane's or Dave's or WLD's experience of him. What I am objecting to is the attitude of some, Jim and Diane in particular, who dimiss the experience of others who knew him as waffling, bitterness and lies. In particular Shirley Collins, Frankie Armstrong and Reg Hall. I have met all of them and do not recognise the descriptions that have appeared in this thread.

Will somebody please explain why it is all right to criticise them but unacceptable to criticise MacColl?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 12:21 PM

It certainly sounds a useful idea to have a subsequent thread moderated.
Not for the purposes of censorship but for brevity and avoidance of repetition.
I have spoken from my own personal experience, not nearly as extensive as that of Jim (or Frankie for that matter), but it reflected nevertheless the huge and positive influence Ewan MacColl had on me.

I have said that I will discuss the Frankie discrepancies with her whenever I see/am otherwise in contact with her. As for Reg Hall, well I didn't see him last night after all but I did run into Bob Davenport. As he was chiefly concerned (as is his wont) with trying to provoke a rendition of My Way, I didn't ask his opinion. Sorry.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 12:00 PM

Snail, people can only tell their own version. It would be ridiculous if he were to presume to speak for those who disagree with him.

In a discussion of the book, as in every other discussion about Ewan MacColl, there are some who seem to be desperate to tear him down. I've heard all of the rumors and I've heard stories that can be considered to be possibly true. I've heard it all and if you or anyone else is going to keep on parroting the same stuff, I'll take it as an indication I can safely ignore what you say as trolling.

I expect that some people's self esteem is based on the importance and respect their targets have recieved. If someone's greatly respected and you attack them, you believe you look important. It doesn't work like that. In this case, the attackers look needy and unoriginal.

Next time, perhaps someone who wants to start a serious thread might request it be moderated to avoid replaying the same old stupid arguments.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 11:44 AM

curmudgeon

I'm not all that sure that what we're learning from Jim and Dave is a "sanitised version."

It is sanitised in the sense that it excludes the evidence of people who were there and did know him but came away with a different impression of the man.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 11:41 AM

My version is not sanitised - simply me experience.

Jim can speak for himself - but from his contributions to this and other threads - it is pretty obvious what he will say.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 11:34 AM

weelittledrummer

well allright, but would you want to be remembered for the people you pissed off?

I'd like to be remembered for who I really was, not some fictionalised version.

To accept the version of MacColl that his supporters present, I have to accept that a number of living people I admire are wafflers, dishonest, bitter "more than a tad forgetful". If his reputation can only be preserved by disparaging the living, there's something seriously wrong.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: curmudgeon
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 11:19 AM

The Snail wrote, "I wasn't there. I cannot have the direct experience, but as an inheritor of what happened in the fifties I am entitled to know the truth, not just the sanitised version that the MacColl camp want to give me."

Being American, I wasn't there either. I did get to hear MacColl and Seeger once in 1970. I too would like to know more, and I'm not all that sure that what we're learning from Jim and Dave is a "sanitised version."

But unlike some others on this thread I bought and am reading the book, which afterall, is the subject of this thread - Tom Hall

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 11:17 AM

well allright, but would you want to be remembered for the people you pissed off? its not like he was always going round jumping on peoples toes.

you know how much the backward looking trad folk movement cheeses me off. but I can assure you this was a decent guy, and he deserves that we should try and think of him at his best - as I'm sure most of us would like to be remembered.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 10:44 AM

Folkiedave

So I contradict them with my own experience. Jim does it with his (much deeper) experience. Nothing to do with fawning devotion but a lot to do with facts.

Shirley Collins, Frankie Armstrong, Reg Hall and The Leveller also had direct experience but they are brushed aside as "waffling", "a tortuous bending of the actualité", "dishonesty" and not being believed (which, I think, is the same thing as calling them a liar).

It is without question that MacColl was a major influence on the folk revival, helped and encouraged a lot of people, wrote some splendid songs and all the other things that Les in Chorlton listed above.

It is also very apparent that he mightily pissed off a number of people. Not just cockneys who wanted to be Leadbelly or Birmingham Folkies who wanted to be North Sea Fishermen but people who were significant players in the revival in their own right.

I cannot see what is to be gained by denying this and rubbishing those who have the temerity to say so.

I wasn't there. I cannot have the direct experience, but as an inheritor of what happened in the fifties I am entitled to know the truth, not just the sanitised version that the MacColl camp want to give me.