Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: Folkiedave Date: 13 Oct 07 - 09:54 AM I have made it clear that I am a fan of MacColl, and I certainly don't lionise him. My own experience of those that knew him well, or met him on a number of occasions or met him once or twice, is that he was courteous and polite and helpful. Loads of people will tell you that he was arrogant, told you what to sing, said you couldn't do this and you couldn't do that. They invariably heard it from someone else. So I contradict them with my own experience. Jim does it with his (much deeper) experience. Nothing to do with fawning devotion but a lot to do with facts. I tried to say in another thread how hard he worked at his stage performances. Would that others did the same. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: GUEST,Jim Carroll Date: 13 Oct 07 - 03:12 AM "well Jim what did you really think of the Yorkshire/Nottinghamshire story?" Winger. I joined the Critics group in 1969. Pat and I were members of the audience committee of the Singers Club for around a dozen years. We were residents of the club for a time. I can state categorically that during that period there was no policy that said that Lancashire singers only sang songs from Lancashire...... We were singing songs from everywhere, and Ewan and Peggy threw open their tape library in order that we could build our repertoires. It was Ewan who encouraged Londoner, John Faulkner to learn 'The Forger's Farewell'(IMO one of John's best songs); the source was Robert Cinnamond from Belfast. Regarding the period pre-1969. In 1978 Pat and I interviewed Ewan over a period of 6 months. One of the points we covered was this one. He explained it as I have stated on this thread and as Peggy explained it in her letter to The Living Tradition. I know Peggy and I knew Ewan; I don't know Leveller - I really don't know what more to say. I believe (and given the above limitations) I know for certain that it was never part of the Singers Club Policy. It is not my habit ever to call people liars. If I have misunderstood Leveller I apologise unreservedly. There is no attempt on my part (or anybody's on this thread as far as I can see) to canonise MacColl, though, throughout my association with the revival there has been a persistant and open attempt to demonise him. PLEASE TELL ME THAT THIS IS NOT THE CASE. My comment originally on this thread was not to stifle discussion on his war record, but to (hopefully) open a discussion on his work on singing. Once again, as with so so so many attempts in the past, this has not happened. I don't give a toss what people think of MacColl as and individual; my own opinions are based on my personal memories of him and nothing is going to change those memories. I do believe that the work we did in The Critics Group was important and could play a part in the future of the singing of traditional songs. I could be wrong, but until we try it we'll never know - will we. All I can say is 'the earth moved for me'. Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: GUEST,Winger Date: 12 Oct 07 - 10:59 PM Oh my God! I'm beginning to think that a couple of our posters are posting from a mental asylum. All this stuff about hidden agendas, electric guitars, and "why don't you go an pick on Alex Campbell". For my part, I've already said that I thought he was a superb singer but my inquiry about his WWII service apparently was enough to get me excommunicated from the Church of St. Ewan. I would imagine the man himself would have been embarrassed by their fawning devotion to him. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: Big Al Whittle Date: 12 Oct 07 - 06:23 PM No go on Shim - tell us what the agenda is? were all agog! I'm not a whole gog, but I'm about quarter gog. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 12 Oct 07 - 06:02 PM In the recently published 'The Folk Handbook' (Backbeat, 2007) there is a section entitled, 'Folk Portraits' by one John Morrish. This section consists, as its name suggests, of a series of brief portraits of people associated with (mainly) English folk music. Names include collectors such as Baring-Gould, Sharp and Vaughan Williams, traditional singers such as Harry Cox, Sam Larner and Fred Jordan and post-war revival figures such as MacColl and Lloyd. In the portrait on MacColl we learn that he and Peggy Seeger introduced a 'songs from [your] own tradition' policy at the Ballads and Blues (sic) club and that MacColl, "alienated many in the folk world". We learn very little about his achievements except that he was a "driving force behind the 1950s revival" and that he wrote 'Dirty Old Town' and 'first Time Ever ...'. The next portrait is of Peter Kennedy and this is a rather bland and uncontroversial account of Kennedy's life and achievements. BUT - and here's the point, last year the 'Musical Traditions' website (www.mustrad.com) published an article on the (recently deceased) Kennedy ('Enthusiasms No. 53', Sept. 2006 - I'll let you read it - if you're interested). This article made 28 (yes TWENTY EIGHT !) negative allegations against Kennedy. Everyone of those allegations made the alleged sins of MacColl pale into insignificance. If any of them are true (and I have no way of knowing if they are) then Kennedy was a much 'badder hombre' than MacColl ever was. BUT it's MacColl who gets the bad-mouthing and the on-going incessant negative flak. The question is WHY? I suspect that the bad-mouthers have an agenda; how about exploring what that agenda might be? |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: Big Al Whittle Date: 12 Oct 07 - 05:49 PM well Jim what did you really think of the Yorkshire/Nottinghamshire story? on the face of it - it sounds absolutely fucking crazy, but there were some crazy fuckers around at that time. I know , I met some. there used to be this club in Brum on the Ringway, called The Grey Cock - mad as hatters, all in fisherman's smocks. I think Charles Parker had something to do with it. I've never encountered more shit music and encyclopaedic arrogance in my life - and that's a long time. MacColl was, like all geniuses, somewhat out of whack with common humanity. But I could live with that. I had catholics and tories as friends - and a lot of muslims, and Hindus and rastas and IRA sympathisers as friends at that point. If you're reasonably mature, nothing anybody says should really phase you. If they pick up a machine gun, that's something else. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: GUEST,Jim Carroll Date: 12 Oct 07 - 03:13 PM Hello Cap'n - nice to have you back - hope you are feeling more yourself. Re the acre - thought of getting the Travellers in to Tarmac it. Jim |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: The Sandman Date: 12 Oct 07 - 02:26 PM Jim Carroll,have you thought about getting some sheep,and some electric fencing for your overgrown acreage,you wouldnt have to waste your time cutting the grass then.Dick Miles |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: curmudgeon Date: 12 Oct 07 - 02:00 PM The book just arrived and looks to be a well written tome. Even a very brief perusal in the middle encountered Jim Carrol's name a couple times re: the Critic's Group. Perhaps when others have their copies and at least have begun to read them we can begin this discussion anew without any nastiness - Tom Hall |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: Big Al Whittle Date: 12 Oct 07 - 01:56 PM oh yes and throughout the world Dick! Terrible, isn't it! what a dilemma! what on earth shall we do about it? I know, plan of action: 1)hands up all the stalinists/fascists. 2)seeing as you're not too fussy about that sort of thing - you could liquidate all the others. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: The Sandman Date: 12 Oct 07 - 01:52 PM This thread [imo] illustrates one thing,there are some very unpleasant/aggressive people on mudcat.Dick Miles |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: GUEST,Jim Carroll Date: 12 Oct 07 - 01:35 PM Yo wrote "Clearly, you feel that the revival has left you behind and does not show you the respect you feel you are due. Words like "infested" suggest a note of bitterness towards those who are merely a mirror image of yourself." I wrote: "as is the application of hidden agendas such as that of Winger who said that I held the views I do because I found myself 'not appreciated'". Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: GUEST,Winger Date: 12 Oct 07 - 12:34 PM "language is designed to suppress discussion, as is the application of hidden agendas such as that of Winger". 1. You're the one who tried to suppress discussion when I inquired about MacColl's WWII activities. 2. Please enlighten me about these hidden agendas, Jim. So far as I know, we've never met, but somehow you view me as "the enemy". A sure sign of paranoia. Drop the "reds under the bed" approach, Jim. This is 2007, not 1957. Stop trying to stifle discussion on this forum. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 12 Oct 07 - 12:33 PM What really puzzles me is why people are still pushing trivial tittle tattle about a creative genius who is 18 years dead? And why do those same people insist on endlessly regurgitating that tittle tattle rather than considering the genius's considerable achievements? It's no wonder that those of us who value and admire MacColl's achievements get a bit tetchy! This appears to be mainly a UK syndrome - I notice that a number of North American contributors, to another thread on this board, are a lot more balanced in their assessments. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: The Borchester Echo Date: 12 Oct 07 - 12:30 PM (1) Shirley Collins was waffling. And it was embittered waffling at that. A public slagging of one dead artist by another who isn't. (2) No, I don't know either whether the Sweers person (who I do not know and whose work I have not read) got it wrong or if Frankie Armstrong was embellishing rather a lot or being more than a tad forgetful. What will I do if I discover Frankie really did speak as quoted? Have a conversation in private, obviously. (3) Whaddya mean, 'leave the Leveller to fight his own corner'? He's already admitted he hasn't a clue what he's talking about. Going out now. To see Reg Hall . . . who isn't my opponent. Nor is Ms Collins nor Ms Armstrong, last time I checked. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: GUEST,theleveller Date: 12 Oct 07 - 12:27 PM "I'll leave the Leveller to fight his own corner." Thank you, small crustacean, but not right now - Im off down the pub. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: TheSnail Date: 12 Oct 07 - 12:11 PM Diane Easby Who are you saying I rubbished, Mr Snail? In your post of 10 Oct 07 - 11:17 AM you said - Yeah, yeah, Shirley Collins was waffling on about her feud with Ewan in Folk Britannia. That strikes me as a pretty good rubbishing. I know Shirley; she doesn't waffle. I think you realised this when you changed it to "I cannot agree". Shirley clearly has strong opinions as can be seen in this interview. In your post of 11 Oct 07 - 06:48 AM you said - This is the 'direct quote' allegedly from Frankie Armstrong: " There was this period when he tried to insist that people should only sing songs from their own region". IF she said this, she knows a great deal better than I do that it is a tortuous bending of the actualité. You seem to be squirming a bit here. Not sure who to call a liar, Britta Sweers or Frankie Armstrong. What are you going to do if you find out it's true? It was Jim Carroll who rubbished Reg Hall, attacking him for assuming that MacColl actually ready the LP cover notes before it was released. He has since escalated this by saying "he quoted them dishonestly to discredit MacColl and Lloyd". I feel that those who support MacColl could put up a better case by producing evidence instead of either trivialising their opponents or calling them liars. I'll leave the Leveller to fight his own corner. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: Les in Chorlton Date: 12 Oct 07 - 11:02 AM leverler, 1. They sang,(He and Peggy) 2. they recoded, 3. they collected, 4. they wrote, 5. they organised clubs, 6. they toured, 7. they supported other people on a greater scale than anybody else." "Sorry, Les, it's such a sweeping statement that no-one could prove or disprove what you say" - Prove? Very hard to do. I recognise that some people did more of some of things and did some of them better. I am hard pushed to thing of any person or persons who did all these things so much and so well. It is because they did so many things so well that they were and are influential. "on a greater scale than anyone else" covers a lot of ground. Who do you have in mind? Well, I don't, not because I have some kind of bias, I simply cannot think of anybody. If you do please let us know what you think. If you're asking me if I hold a different opinion, the answer is 'yes'. OK Opinion is a word easy to deal with. Carthy and the Watersons? Never fail to excite, friendly, generous, talented, original, hard working, in certain areas the most influential people around. But not in the all encompassing way that E & S have been. Best wishes Les Jones |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: The Borchester Echo Date: 12 Oct 07 - 10:49 AM Who are you saying I rubbished, Mr Snail? In my post above at 3.33, I said: (1) that I disagreed with the statement Shirley Collins made on FB (quite a vicious attack as it happens) that Ewan MacColl had misappropriated music that did not belong to him. (2) that I was doubtful that Frankie Armstrong had been quoted accurately and that I would ask her about her experiences with Ewan (which as far as I can see were exactly the same as mine but continued for much longer) next time I saw her. (3) that I would similarly speak to Reg Hall about the attribution of the sleeve notes (also made in FB), about which he had no doubt made a genuine mistake. And I also drew people's attention time and time again to Peggy Seeger's LT piece which described exactly what did happen at the Singers'. In fact I didn't even rubbish the Leveller when he sounded off about me in a dispute with the BBC/Smoothops about which he admitted he knew nothing but relied on malicious hearsay. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: TheSnail Date: 12 Oct 07 - 10:27 AM Bryn Pugh Afraid to name me, Snail ? See my earlier post as to use of my true name for postings. Not singling you out in particular, Bryn. There are several on here who are rubbishing people I respect in their effort to defend MacColl. I specifically quoted Diane Easby and Jim Carroll in my earlier post. Not called Brian, by any chance, are you ? No, I'm called Bryan and can be found here. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: Big Al Whittle Date: 12 Oct 07 - 10:22 AM ''Theleveller' no-one is denying you your right to have your say!' No, but Jim more or less called him a liar over Nottingham/Yorkshire story. does sound a bit weird, doesn't it? I dunno what to make of it all. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 12 Oct 07 - 10:17 AM "No, I don't believe in denying people the right to have their say" 'Theleveller' no-one is denying you your right to have your say! After all, you've said it, haven't you? As far as I can see what seems to get up your nose is people disagreeing with you. PS: Note that it is not I who has labelled anyone a 'Fascist' or 'Stalinist' ('folk' or otherwise) - and neither do I intend to. In my opinion those are terms too loaded with hatred, grief and suffering to be bandied about lightly in a mildly heated discussion about the British Folk Scene. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: Bryn Pugh Date: 12 Oct 07 - 10:15 AM Afraid to name me, Snail ? See my earlier post as to use of my true name for postings. Not called Brian, by any chance, are you ? |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: TheSnail Date: 12 Oct 07 - 10:12 AM From Peggy Seeger's article - It is possible that they [Jim Carroll and Pat Mackenzie] have inherited some of Ewan's intransigence and argumentative temperament Seems to apply to all of MacColl's supporters. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: Bryn Pugh Date: 12 Oct 07 - 08:52 AM "Personally, I'm having a great time." I wonder why that don't surprise me ? |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: GUEST,theleveller Date: 12 Oct 07 - 03:57 AM Diane, I apologise if I misrepresented your reasons for leaving the BBC board. I didn't know about it until some time afterwards and certainly missed the passion of your arguments - but certainly not the invective and personal remarks. No, I don't believe in denying people the right to have their say - thaqt's exactly the my remarks about 'folk Stalinism'. I've now said this on numerous occasions, but it just seems to be ignored. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: GUEST,theleveller Date: 12 Oct 07 - 03:49 AM Sort of the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it, Jim? Perhaps you should reflect on calling me a liar before you start trying to take the high moral ground about free debate and name calling. Far from trying to suppress discussion (what would be the point of that, for god's sake? You obviously haven't bothered to read what I wrote two threads above.)I'm trying to stop myself and the others who are less than enthusiatic about MacColl from being shouted down by the hard liners who won't hear of any other opinion but there's. Perhaps you should look at the remarks of Mr Pugh, above, if you want to mete out criticism. If you're not enjoying the debate, no-one's forcing you to take part. Personally, I'm having a great time. Les in Chorlton wrote: leveler, just as a point of clarity do you think this untrue? "They sang,(He and Peggy) they recoded, they collected, they wrote,they organised clubs, they toured, they supported other people on a greater scale than anybody else." Sorry, Les, it's such a sweeping statement that no-one could prove or disprove what you say. "on a greater scale than anyone else" covers a lot of ground. Who do you have in mind? If you're asking me if I hold a different opinion, the answer is 'yes'. I think there are people who have been, and still are, far more influential than the MacColls. The names that immediately spring to mind are The Watersons and Msrtin Carthy. I may be a bit biased regarding the Watersons (but, hey, there's plenty of that around on this thread) because they were always around during my early years in folk music; I frequently used to go to their clubs and they came to mine. They were always very generous with their help and encouragement. What a contrast to the atmosphere in the clubs I visited when I first arrived in London! I think their lifetime achievement (so far) far outstrips that of MacColl and his group, especially with the younger generation that is carrying the torch forward. Mr Carthy's record speaks for itself. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: Bryn Pugh Date: 12 Oct 07 - 03:46 AM I was going to respond to Leveller's diatribe, but what's the use. I am neither a folk fascist nor a folk Stalinist, but there are some out there who won't accept this. I leave this discussion sadder but wiser. At least I have the balls to post under my true name. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: The Borchester Echo Date: 12 Oct 07 - 03:33 AM Somebody calling himself, singularly inappropriately, 'The Leveller', refers above to a 'ban from the BBC F&A forum for 'extreme and immoderate behaviour'. If he means me (and I think he does), this is inaccurate. I was instructed, firstly, to make an undertaking not to refer to perceived links between Smooth Operations and a highly dubious music production and distribution business and this I refused. Secondly, I was one of three people threatened over an alleged breach of House Rules for outing a ridiculously annoying, inane airheaded troll who is now, thankfuly, scarcely welcomed anywhere. As for Shirley Collins, I heard what she said, I cannot agree on the basis of personal experience, and said so. As for Frankie Armstrong, this was merely a quote and more than likely a misquote about which I shall, nevertheless, ask her when I see her. As far as 'Old Guard' Reg Hall is concerned, I've been meaning to take up his comments on FB about the attribution of sleeve notes à propos East European ensembles, and will do so (if I remember) when I see him later on today. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: GUEST,Jim Carroll Date: 12 Oct 07 - 02:57 AM Shimrod, 'folk Fascists' and 'folk Stalinists' 'jackboots. (all used by theleveller). Irony, not exaggeration is the word that springs to mind; the above language is designed to suppress discussion, as is the application of hidden agendas such as that of Winger who said that I held the views I do because I found myself 'not appreciated'. If people can't respond directly to the argument rather than resort to invective there is little point in these discussions (occasionally, both are to be expected, but replacing argument with this sort of viciousness gets nowhere and proves nothing). In the cases of Shirley Collins and Frankie Armstrong, people addressed the statements of both of them made rather than relying on meaningless namecalling. I referred to Reg Hall as 'the old Guard' because he came from the early days of the revival (50s, when he was playing in Camden Town with Michael Gorman and Margaret Barry) and was (and still is) one of MacColl's most vociferous knockers. The sleeve notes I referred to were not his but that of an American collector; he quoted them dishonestly to discredit MacColl and Lloyd, giving the inaccurate impression that they had been written by either/both of them - re-view the programme if you are able. Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: TheSnail Date: 11 Oct 07 - 08:31 PM I'm not sure that I particularly care about whether Ewan MacColl was a tyrant or a saint but I am concerned about the attitude to people I (and a great many others, I'm sure) hold esteem. Shirley Collins's and Frankie Armstrongs's views aew "opinions only". "Shirley Collins was waffling on...", Frankie Armstrong is accused "a tortuous bending of the actualité". I think that means lying. Reg Hall is dismissed as one of the "old guard" (surely he is a generation after MacColl and Lloyd) and attacked for assuming that performers hold some sort of responsibility for the sleeve notes on their recordings. I don't think this puts the pro-MacColl lobby in a good light. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: GUEST,theleveller Date: 11 Oct 07 - 05:35 PM Well, now Shimrod, that's a total misinterpretation of what I believe and, indeed what I have said. I'm afraid that this debate goes back a long way and if you take the time to go and read some of the comments made about me and others in the past on the BBC Folk and Acoustic board, you'll get a better idea of what I'm talking about. One of the people who made those comments has now been banned from that board for extreme and immoderate behaviour, but features in the above debate. I have no objection to people disagreeing with me; indeed, the reason I come onto boards like this is for lively debate. As I have always maintained "I may disagree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it". I do, however, object to being branded a liar and told that my opinions are "shit". So, perhaps you should get your sense of proportion right and take the terminology in the context that it is intended - I did not say Facists or Stalinists, i said 'folk Fascists' and 'folk Stalinists'. The difference may be a subtle one but is essential to the debate. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 11 Oct 07 - 05:18 PM 'GUEST, Winger' you wrote: "You seem to be under the impression that the world of folk music is divided into two camps - those macho enough to appreciate the "real thing", and those lily-livered "folk Luvvies" who like their music with a little pop influence." Umm, yes, I do actually. That sums it up nicely (apart from the word 'macho' - which isn't really relevant)! Turning to 'Guest,theleveller', you wrote: "Well, well, unsurprisingly, these MacColl threads have brought the 'folk Fascists' or, rather, 'folk Stalinists' out of the woodwork, chanting their totalitarian mantras, shouting and stamping their feet and branding anyone who dares to criticise the Great God MacColl as a liar or an idiot." So, 'theleveller' it seems that you believe that anyone who you happen to disagree with, or has a different set of opinions to you, is a 'Fascist/Stalinist', do you? Do I detect a tiny bit of exageration there? Has anyone prevented you from expressing your opinions or attempted to supress those opinions by declaring them illegal? Has anyone persecuted you on the basis of your ethnic backgound, religion etc.? Has anyone prevented you from earning your living by blacklisting you from your chosen profession? Has anyone banged on your door in the middle of the night and arrested you? Has anyone subjected you to a show trial? Has anyone imprisoned you without trial and tortured you? Has anyone sent you, or members of your family, to a concentration camp? Perhaps you'd like to compare notes with the people of Burma or Zimbabwe - it could be that those people could restore in you a sense of proportion ... |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: GUEST,Winger Date: 11 Oct 07 - 04:27 PM Oh, dear, Shimrod. What's all this electric guitar stuff? You seem to be under the impression that the world of folk music is divided into two camps - those macho enough to appreciate the "real thing", and those lily-livered "folk Luvvies" who like their music with a little pop influence. You don't get out much, Shimrod, do you. There's a big world out there and there's lots of people with lots of different views on folk music. Are you suggesting that to enjoy the music of MacColl excludes you from other kinds of music? |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 11 Oct 07 - 04:03 PM Let's get a grip! This 'infamous' policy was confined to ONE club! And surely, at the time, if you didn't agree with that policy you just didn't sing at that particular club (there did happen to be hundreds of other clubs to choose from at the time). Where was the harm (I think that, under the circumstances which prevailed at the time, it was a GOOD policy)? What was at risk - other than egoes? I think that this constant, tiresome harping on about that long-dead policy is a cover for those who found, and still find, MacColl's views - on folk music - not just politics - just too challenging and unconventional. And I mean unconventional in the sense that they had little too do with contemporary fashion and popular music. Now if had just picked up that Stratocaster ... |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: GUEST,Jim Carroll Date: 11 Oct 07 - 01:40 PM Daryowyn Wasn't like that - sorry. The idea came from Lomax first. He was concerned that so many early revival singers were singing American material that he suggested (to MacColl and Lloyd - who had also tries their hand at American songs) that there was a danger of the American repertoire swamping the clubs, and that maybe they should concentrate on the Brit material. The did so - but as Peggy pointed out - it was for the residents of Ballads and Blues and later, Singers residents. Whether other clubs came along and said, 'that's a good idea....' who knows (maybe somebody out here. Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: Darowyn Date: 11 Oct 07 - 01:02 PM Is this the British disease, like Chinese whispers with an escalating degree of authoritarianism? EMcC- "It would be a good idea if we sang songs from our own cultural background" Singers Club Committee:- "You should sing songs from your own cultural background" Club organiser:- "You may only sing songs from your own cultural background" Another Club organiser (thirty years on and now a card carrying Folk Nazi (or Stalinist)):-"You are a traitor to the Folk Tradition if you sing songs which are not from your own cultural background, because E McC said so" I think that is the same "jobsworth" attitude that make EU membership such an issue in the UK. We care too much about the letter of the rules. As the Latin saying goes. Humanus sum. Nihil mumanum mihi alienum est. I am a human. Nothing human is alien to me. Cheers Dave |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: Les in Chorlton Date: 11 Oct 07 - 12:16 PM leveler, just as a point of clarity do you think this untrue? "They sang,(He and Peggy) they recoded, they collected, they wrote,they organised clubs, they toured, they supported other people on a greater scale than anybody else." (My post above) |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: GUEST,theleveller Date: 11 Oct 07 - 11:30 AM Oh, and thanks for asking; yes, I do suffer from tinnitus - it's a distressing complaint, especially for a musician. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: GUEST,theleveller Date: 11 Oct 07 - 11:25 AM Err - I never met Shakespeare, Karl Marx, Oscar Wilde, the author of Beowulf etc, etc. but I have opinions on their work and their influence. You don't know me but you seem to have an opinion on what I say. Work it out! I met MacColl face to face and I have commented on that. I have also commented on what I think his influence was on folk music, based on 45 years of observation. If you don't like free speech, don't come on the board. Personally, I'm in favour of it. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: Bryn Pugh Date: 11 Oct 07 - 11:15 AM How is it possible for a second, third, fourth or fifth hand opinion to be 'valid' ? Hearsay is not evidence, regardless of how much the utterer would like it to be. Leveller - please read the key words - 'never knew'. As to what you think you are hearing, ever thought it might be tinnitus ? |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: GUEST,theleveller Date: 11 Oct 07 - 11:07 AM "Don't you just love these who never knew Ewan McColl or Peggy Seeger trot out the same usual shit ?" I assume by that you mean have their own valid opinions. Hark! Do I hear the tramp of jackboots again? |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: Bryn Pugh Date: 11 Oct 07 - 10:30 AM Sorry - that should have read 'productive and rewarding' |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: Bryn Pugh Date: 11 Oct 07 - 10:29 AM Jim C - Greetings At slight risk of thread-creep, would I be right in thinking that the 'young Jewish man' to whom you adverted ealier was Benny Klein ? Don't you just love these who never knew Ewan McColl or Peggy Seeger trot out the same usual shit ? I am glad your years in London were so productive and - all I can say is that some of the Manchester critics (sm'c' deliberate !) wqere sorry to see you go. They were good sessions in that alehouse on High Street.all |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: GUEST,Jim Carroll Date: 11 Oct 07 - 09:41 AM "I am a great admirer of Ewan, but if we are to discuss his life/career/personality/beliefs/singing then it has to be 'warts and all'. Otherwise there's no point." Couldn't agree more. Nice balanced discussion so far - only one ointment in the fly Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: GUEST,Jim Carroll Date: 11 Oct 07 - 09:27 AM "Well, well, unsurprisingly, these MacColl threads have brought the 'folk Fascists' or, rather, 'folk Stalinists'" Did somebody mention a mantra? Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: Dave Sutherland Date: 11 Oct 07 - 08:56 AM When John Revie, a MacColl, Singers Club, associate opened The Barleycorn folk club in Newcastle in 1970 along with Stefan Sobell he declared it would adopt the Singers Club policy whereby singers would perform songs "from their own cultural media". This meaning that those of us born in this country would sing songs from the British Isles, not just from our particular region. Since a good 90% of those attending on a Saturday night would have been born and bred in the North East it would have become pretty insular if all we had sung were Geordie songs (and a good 50% of my repetiore is from the North East). John himself had a huge collection of songs some English and Scottish but the majority of them Irish - I never heard him sing a Geordie song yet! |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: Les in Chorlton Date: 11 Oct 07 - 08:44 AM leveler, are you doing a bit of shouting and stamping yourself? No, perhaps not. I rather suspect that very few people who sang in or went to folk clubs in the 60's new much about McColl and the fine detail of what he thought, did or sang. His major legacy was his songs. Lots of people sang them and many of them were and remain excellent. "They sang,(He and Peggy) they recoded, they collected, they wrote,they organised clubs, they toured, they supported other people on a greater scale than anybody else." (My post above) Yes, that's what they did and it was influential. Some people also did this but most people involved in the folk scene either did some of these things or not much. That's why McColl and Seeger were influential. As for the politics, he came from a time when people thought socialism in some form was possible, it seems less possible now. In the 60's many of us sang Irish Rebel songs, American Civil rights songs, Scottish Bothy Ballads and joined the Communist Party and most of us stopped doing it not because of the policy of the Singers Club but for the same kinds of reasons that got the SC to that point - it didn't feel right most of the time. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 11 Oct 07 - 08:39 AM Where did I say it was Ewan? I'm quoting from other people who were there at the time who say it was Ewan. "'I remember going to the Singers Club a couple of times with Anne [Briggs]', says Bert. 'If you were a Scots person you were expected to to sing Scottish songs.'" Bert Jansch ibid p.162 I believe Bert (a Scot) had a fairly decent grasp of the English language, or at least he had the last time I talked to him. PS the book was 4 years in the writing. A second edition appeared last year, presumably after a more considered re-writing. Inexplicably, the above quotes are still there. |
Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography From: The Borchester Echo Date: 11 Oct 07 - 08:30 AM Now, where shall I start……….? The Mike Harding Show? Though I fear it might be too cutting edge for you. |
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