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2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act

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Dave the Gnome 11 Dec 19 - 05:04 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Dec 19 - 04:51 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 11 Dec 19 - 04:03 PM
Iains 11 Dec 19 - 04:00 PM
Vic Smith 11 Dec 19 - 03:59 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 11 Dec 19 - 03:40 PM
Iains 11 Dec 19 - 03:02 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Dec 19 - 02:59 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Dec 19 - 02:00 PM
Joe Offer 11 Dec 19 - 01:23 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Dec 19 - 01:19 PM
GUEST,HiLo 11 Dec 19 - 01:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Dec 19 - 01:04 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Dec 19 - 12:43 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Dec 19 - 12:22 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Dec 19 - 12:10 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Dec 19 - 11:55 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Dec 19 - 11:12 AM
Joe Offer 11 Dec 19 - 12:08 AM
Big Al Whittle 10 Dec 19 - 07:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Dec 19 - 05:38 PM
Joe Offer 10 Dec 19 - 02:36 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Dec 19 - 08:48 AM
GUEST,HiLo 10 Dec 19 - 08:29 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Dec 19 - 08:13 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 10 Dec 19 - 08:13 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 10 Dec 19 - 08:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Dec 19 - 07:35 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Dec 19 - 07:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Dec 19 - 07:03 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Dec 19 - 06:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Dec 19 - 06:10 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Dec 19 - 04:56 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Dec 19 - 12:58 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Dec 19 - 12:55 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 09 Dec 19 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 09 Dec 19 - 12:16 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Dec 19 - 09:18 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 09 Dec 19 - 09:09 AM
FreddyHeadey 09 Dec 19 - 09:08 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 09 Dec 19 - 08:41 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 09 Dec 19 - 08:29 AM
Iains 09 Dec 19 - 06:13 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Dec 19 - 05:18 AM
Iains 09 Dec 19 - 04:59 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Dec 19 - 03:57 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 08 Dec 19 - 05:13 PM
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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 05:04 PM

Just had a listen. Quite pleasant but is it folk? :-D


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 04:51 PM

Could well have been, Hootenanny. Just had a listen and it doesn't sound the same. But what does 50+ years later! As I was looking it up I found what may have been the strangest version. 1963. Esther and Abi Ofarim. Not had a listen yet. Not quite sure if I am ready for it :-)


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 04:03 PM

Dave the Gnome

The recording played to you by your teacher was almost certainly by Alan Lomax and the Ramblers. When Lomax & MacColl joined in the Skiffle Craze. It was a strange mixture and I can quite easily understand how it mignt have put you off folk for life. The two jazz musicians involved were Bruce Turner on clarinet and Jim Bray on bass. The rest of the line up was Lomax, MacColl, Peggy Seeger Shirley Collins and Brian Daly. As I say a strange mixture, one which people might find surprising when they think about Ewan and Peggy's (supposedly suggested by Lomax) feelings about only singing the songs from your own background.
I had no problems with most of them when they did their own thing but mixed up this way it didn't work.
I do however realise that if you are trying to make a living as a musician then you take the work that you can get.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Iains
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 04:00 PM

Had he the educational opportunities that the following generation had, the grammar schools and expanding tertiary education in the 60's......
Who knows where it may have lead him? He got to where he was with a minimal formal education and was innovative and successful in several different fields.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Vic Smith
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 03:59 PM

Right! I feel that I can make this comment now.....

Mention of a very silly thread had me scurrying back look at it. I'm talking about the Ewan MacColl Trousers thread. I didn't look at for quite a while after it was started, but when I did, I joined in with gusto. Unlike all the other heavy combative threads, this was light, funny and scurrilous without being disrespectful. I had a good laugh reading through it again.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 03:40 PM

Who knows what drives creativity, though personal convictions do I suppose express themselves in this way, and through art, and so on.

The book says that he wanted to be a novelist at one point, and did write a novel. I think it says he wrote poetry as a child. His father tried to educate him, and bought him Darwin's Origins of Species as he did not want him to be religious, and some novels too.

The book says that his mother had some social aspirations, which may sound odd in view of her politics, but then a friend of mine whose parents were CP members was sent for elocution lessons as her mother did not want he to end up with a Scottish accent. I'm fearful of sounding judgmental here: we all have our contradictions.. So one thing his mother did was buy him a piano, which the book says was part of this project.

His father was a performer and used to give lectures mid performance if I remember correctly. So on one level, mixing politics and performance was simply doing what his father had done?

Also, again if I remember correctly, the book says that as a skilled worker (iron moulding being relatively skilled) his father considered himself somehow above the less-skilled.

So to some extent I think maybe there were aspirational elements within his background?

But the book (and maybe at some level the writer is making a point) seems to emphasise that MacColl lacked practical skills, to the point where it was a family joke that he could not wire a plug. It doesn't seem that he was suited to be a motor mechanic, despite getting taken on for an apprenticeship.

So maybe put all this together, with his interest in books and so on, and his lack of opportunity via the grammar school/education route some people in that era were able to take, some sort of arts-based career would have been attractive, especially to somebody with something to say and creative ability (which I don't think anybody is denying he had). Whether it was acting, play-writing, documentary radio making, and the path he eventually specialised in, songwriting and performance, coupled and infused with the political vision?

Does this make sense?


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Iains
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 03:02 PM

This is a summary of Ewan MacColl from The Working Class Movement Library that is located in MacColl’s home town of Salford. The Library's holdings include material from all aspects of Ewan's political and cultural life

Ewan MacColl will be known to most people as a songwriter and singer, but he was also of significant influence in the worlds of theatre and radio broadcasting. He was a committed socialist all his life and his political sensibilities underpinned all his creative activities.
https://www.wcml.org.uk/maccoll/

To me it seems a very fair synopsis of his life. It is hardly surprising he was a political animal considering his background:
Ewan MacColl was born James Henry Miller in Salford, Lancashire, on January 25 1915. His father, William Miller, was an iron-moulder, militant trade-unionist and communist who had left his native Stirlingshire in his mid-twenties. His mother, Betsy Hendry, was from Auchterarder, Perthshire. Both parents were active left-wing socialists and from his earliest days, MacColl was familiar with the cut-and-thrust of political discussion and argument. Equally important in the life of the household were the songs and stories his parents brought from Scotland – a huge repertoire with which his father and mother kept themselves and their friends entertained.
I wonder if his creativity was in part motivated by his politics?
If satisfied with the status quo would he have had the drive to produce his body of work?


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 02:59 PM

I put that up in the hope somebody might like to talk about Ewan's real politics
There is much more of it
I don't take threats of suspension seriously any more - I frankly no longer care one way or another
If people feel Ewan's artistry has no room on this thread I will happily open another (at the risk of it being closed no doubt)
I have no desire to take part in yet another same-old-same old kicking match
Jim Carroll
    Glad you don't mind threats of suspension, because you're suspended until January 1 and this thread will remain open but without your participation. I warned you, and you defied my warning in two posts.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 02:00 PM

Macol was not about pilitics with a capital P - this is what MacColl's politics was about
If we can't discuss that, we can't discuss the artistry of MacColl

This is from a semibnar Ewah held with a group of teachers in the sixties
Take it or leave it
Jim Carroll

EWAN: If somebody put to me the preposition of doing a radio ballad on bank clerks, right away it seems to me that we're doing a programme about how a bank is run, we have to ask ourselves what is our objective? It would be to ask a very simple question. How is it that after so many thousand years of human evolution and social evolution, we can still find tens of thousands, millions perhaps of human beings who are prepared to spend their lives, not in creating wealth which men can use, coal or even motor cars or cans of peas, or whatever, but who are prepared merely in the transfer of one kind of wealth to another kind. Now as soon as you ask yourself this question you begin to see the possibility of a programme in which it is conceivably you'll get all your bank clerks speaking with the same kind of intonation, all contented perhaps, and all completely oblivious to the fact that they're wasting their lives, for basically it is a waste of human endeavour. How would you do this?   I think you'd have to set it against the remarks of other people. I think the mere inactivity of speech, if their speech did turn out to be remarkably inactive, I think it could be used to highlight the extraordinarily tragic nature of their position inside society. But to highlight it, obviously you'd have to inset it against active speech, and you'd have to get active speech from other people perhaps, out¬side the area of the bank clerks existence, you'd have to get coalminers and so on. How would I bring that in? Well, these days almost everybody banks, for holidays and that kind of thing. I'd get it from the kind of across the counter stuff. I'd say, Johnny Sangster, who is a miner at the Howarth pit, puts 8 quid a week in the bank every, Saturday morning he's at that bank putting his money in for his holidays, and I'd use him as well.   All right Johnny, you go to the bank, what feelings have you about it? You undoubtedly would get something like that.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 01:23 PM

OK, Jim. It appears you haven't learned your lesson. We close threads when people start fighting in them and make it impossible for others to carry on a rational discussion - you are the primary offender, but it seems your self-righteousness makes it impossible for you to see your responsibility in this. We close threads because you fill them full of shit and destroy what had been an interesting discussion. We close threads because that preserves what is valuable in a discussion - sorting out what's good and bad is just too complicated and too arbitrary, so it's best to close a thread and let things cool down before allowing it to start again.

I know you want us to censor threads to your specifications and you want us to ban people your consider unworthy, but that's not going to happen.

MacColl threads get closed often, because you, Jim Carroll, tend to go bonkers in them, because you cannot allow disagreement with your opinions. Mr. Carroll, you are not allowed to comment on moderator actions in any way in any thread - as there is a general prohibition against discussion in threads of moderator actions because such discussion is harmful to the good of the forum. If you wish to discuss such things, do so by email to max@mudcat.org or joe@mudcat.org.

I will leave this thread open to the end of the day. If it keeps going off topic, I will close it.

And you, Mr. Carroll, are within an inch of getting yourself suspended until January 1. Talk about Ewan MacColl all you want, but while this thread is open, MacColl discussion is allowed in this thread and this thread alone. If you step off the path, you're gone.


-Joe Offer-


Ewan MacColl Songs (click)

Ewan MacColl & Peggy Seeger Info (click)

No, we don't have a group of threads for Ewan MacColl's singing, but you'll find many comments about his singing in the threads in these two groups. And yeah, I suppose the usual pattern is that when somebody talks about MacColl's singing, someone else will talk about MacColl singing with his finger in his ear, and then Jim Carroll will go ballistic, and then the thread gets closed.

But mark my words: it's not the thread topics that get threads closed. It's people going ballistic that get threads closed. And you do it regularly, Jim Carroll.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 01:19 PM

"It is not about his singing, his religion or his trousers...it is about this"
If you read the book a major part of it is about him as a singer - how could it have been about anything else -- that's what he was
If his hadn't been the important singer he was his politics would hhave measured insignificantly next to many millions of others
He never spole publicly on plolitcs, he never wrore about it, his songs were about his humanism rather than his political beliefs
We have had many dozens of threads on MacColl's politics - at least half of them have been closed because of the acrimony
If we can't manage to discuss him as an artist at least go open a thread on his politcs on the below the line section - that's where politics is designated to be discussed
Even the threads which started discussing his singing have ended up about everything but that
This is simple sabotaging the memor of a great artist - nothing less
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 01:07 PM

This thread is clearly about the biography "Class Act". It is not about his singing, his religion or his trousers...it is about this
particular biography.
If you wish to discuss his singing , open another thread..(as If another McColl thread were needed) For the most part this discussion has been intelligent and respectful. I have learned much about McColl and would appreciate it Jim, if your unfettered hero worship, would not get in the way of informed discussion.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 01:04 PM

I have ignored nothing - I have participated in every single hread on MacColl

Yes, we know that, Jim. That is rather the point. Maybe if you did ignore some of the stuff that winds you up, not as many of those threads would be closed and there would be no need for the moderation team to consider any deletions or suspensions.

Still, this is not sticking to the subject so I shall take my own advice. Consider yourself ignored!

Back to the topic in question. The first song I performed in public, albeit as part of the school class choir, was "Dirty Old Town". The gym teacher played guitar, a couple of us played mouth organs and the rest sang. During rehearsals the teacher played us a MacColl version that had a jazz feel to it. As a callow 15 year old into Hendrix and the Who it nearly put me off folk for life. Luckily I persisted:-)


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 12:43 PM

I just had a quick sprint down the list that heads this thread
Nowhere is there a serious discussion about Ewan's research on singing - the majority of them get bogged down in personal attacks or more abourt MacColl's personality
Time for a change maybe

What did you do in the war, Ewan? (303) (closed)   Not about singing
Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes? (239) Bogged down in personal attacks
Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe? (182) as previous Closed
Ewan MacColl on bandcamp (14) Future plans for old recordings
Stage Play: Joan & Jimmy (March 2019) (10) Theatre work
Ewan Maccoll - Atheist or Religious? (23) Religion
Missing MacColl Albums (6) Albums
Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering (107) Complaint about same-old, same old
Ewan MacColl's trousers (110) Piss take
Ewan MacColl tribute-Maxine Peake (15) Posthumous tribute – not about his singing   

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 12:22 PM

"Just talk about the bits you bad interested in bringing up then, Jim, and ignore the rest."
No Dave
I have made my point - including the fact that discussing MacColl's politics etc. has not just diverted from talking about him as a leading figure in folksong, but has closed innumerable threads.
MacColl was an artist not a politician - what's your problem in concentrting on thet for a change ?
I have ignored nothing - I have participated in every single hread on MacColl - usuually in the terms they have been set out - his politics - written reams on it, his war recod - the same, all the stories - done them at length
If we can't discuss someones wotk on singing for a change on a forum heads itself to be abot "Folkson, Folklore tand the Traditional Arts" then the forum is no longre fit for puropse
Whtyt is it necessary to fight for the right to discuss macColl as an artist edvery time his name comes up
Pwerhaps I should take that to the forum on the State of today's folk scene
If MacColl's work had been taken into consideration you youdn't have todays folkies running around like blue-arsed flies saying "nobody knows what folk song is anymore"
Plwase, please, please - MacColl was a singer, not a politician or even a political activist - let us discuss that
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 12:10 PM

How did are get corrected to bad?


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 11:55 AM

Just talk about the bits you bad interested in bringing up then, Jim, and ignore the rest. Other people want to discuss other aspects. You have no right to tell them they cannot. You have every right to ignore their posts and carry on telling us what a splendid man MacColl was.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 11:12 AM

There is no problem whatever in discussing MacColl's political beliefs Joe - there never has been - they are obvious from the contents of many of his songs anyway
The problem is that this is not what is happening here -
Discussions like this sometimes feel like a session of the H.U.A.C. where it becomes necessary to repeat over and over again "MacColl was not and never has been a member of The Communist Party"
MacColl departed from Party Politics in the late 1940s - he said so to me and we have him doing so as part of a six month interview Pat and I carried out in the early 1980s - as far as his Political affiliations are concerned, that should be good enough to leave alone - it is something that happened 75 years ago and needs top be laid to rest

MacColl's politics, his war record, his name-change, his so-called arrogance...... has been discussed dozens of times over- it is impossible to open a thread under his name without one or other - usually all these things being brought up and usually used as weapons to attack a thirty year long dead singer who added so much to the lives of so many people

Discussions on these things have invariably led to hostility (some of which has been on display recently) and has closed threads
Because of this, discussion on MacColl has become almost a no go area
I have tried on numerous occasions to discuss the groundbreaking work MacColl, Seeger and the Critics group did on singing - always without success
Each time it has fallen at the pre-war politics - name change - Scots or English..... fence - these have become zn insignificant and totally unnecessary hurdle to discussing Ewan as an artist and an innovator   

It has become fashionable for moderators to decide when subjects have run their course and close threads - surely these hoary old chestnuts have had their day by now and it's time to discuss the artistic work of this man ?
Are we really happy to treat him like THIS ?

This is something Peggy wrote after Ewan's name had been dragged from the dead once more to be administered yet another kicking

"Ewan MacColl was one step nearer to being a folksinger than I, having been brought up in a Scots community in Salford. He is a man who is a perfect example of the old saying “stick your neck out and someone will chop your head off”. I didn’t know, until after he died, just how many enemies and ex-post-facto critics we had made. WE. Please remember that he and I were in this together and you can now aim your missiles at someone who is still here and who is quite articulate on the matter. Pity more folks didn’t have the courage and the knowledge to talk with him while he was alive. He was actually an interesting, approachable person and was happy to talk to anyone who approached with a less-than-hostile attitude. I learned so much from those years. And of course, I am biased! I am also fed up with people who criticise him with only hearsay and second (third, fourth, umpteenth) knowledge on which to base their opinions.
Like Ewan, I’ve always got lots more to say but I don’t care to argue all this out nitty blow by gritty blow. By the way, I’m just finishing up a book of his songs. 200 of them. ‘The Essential Ewan MacColl Songbook’ (Music Sales, autumn 2000). Those of you who have followed or partaken in this controversy might find my long critique of him as a person and an artist enlightening. It won’t be what you expected from the person who was his lover and working partner. Information is on my website: www.pegseeger.com.
Peggy Seeger, North Carolina"
The Living Tradition Vol. 39; July 2000.

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 12:08 AM

I don't want to stir things up, but I do think it is very important to discuss MacColl's political beliefs and how they were expressed in his music. Pete Seeger wouldn't be the beloved Pete Seeger, if he hadn't been a Communist. MacColl had a more edgy public persona than Seeger, but I have talked with a few people who knew him well and had great affection for him. The negative response to MacColl, was at least to an an extent caused by his grouchy demeanor.
I'm not really familiar with MacColl's political songs, other than those in the remarkable radio ballads. Mudcat has threads on lots of MacColl songs and many are political - and many of those political songs are quite profound.
Oh, I suppose there are a few people here who might be scandalized by MacColl's politics, but most of us have increased respect for him because of his politics.
So, certainly MacColl's politics is an appropriate topic of discussion, and should not be banished "below the line."
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 07:55 PM

of course you've got democratic right to say what you want Dave.

the thing is, though - he lived in a different time to us - and a different place.

its very easy with the benefit of hindsight and our modern knowledge of how brutal Stalin was, to be dismissive of his communism. And its tempting to be judgemental.

However think of all the poets of the 1930's who were communists in response to the rise of fascism. Many intellectuals like George Bernard Shaw expressed golden opinions of Uncle Joe. Think of the young Cabridge students who were suckered into becoming spies. Intelligent sophisticated men, with much better educations than Ewan.

I don't think I feel comfortable with people who had a much cushier start in life and live in a much cushier point in history bad mouthing him.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 05:38 PM

MaColl's political affiliations need to be discussed alongside his contribution to folk music. As it is now clear that there should be only one thread to discuss him and this is it, we need to make the most of it. We should be able to discuss his music, his contribution, his war record and his name change without fear of treading on anyone's toes. It should also remain above the line not only because he was such a major figure in the folk world but so everyone who wants to contribute, including guests, can do so.

I know nothing about the man apart from his musical legacy and what I read on here. I like a lot of his songs. The performances I have heard have not been my cup of tea but I can certainly appreciate the contribution he made. I am probably pretty typical in that I am interested in him but not obsessed enough to blind me to any flaws.

Oh, and there is a thread for the state of the folk scene today. This is not it.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 02:36 PM

Please remember to stay on topic. Off-topic messages will be deleted. This is the only MacColl thread open for discussion at this time. Don't go refreshing other threads. One MacColl thread is enough for now.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 08:48 AM

"If I have made a 'hames' then I shall be glad to have it explained to me. However, I based what I said on an example given by Peggy Seeger. "
You said it was Sandra - neither would have made such an error
Using Laban, MacColl divided voice production into its three elements, speed, weight and direction
Different combination of these elements produce different effects which MacColl described by using Laban's term, "efforts"
The most common effort used by singers is;
The Press - slow, heavy and direct.
Change the speed and you get;
The thrust - fast, heavy and direct. - often used in work songs, particularly shanties
Change the direction and you get:
The slash - fast, heavy and indirect, again a feature of work songs

Further useble combinations produce
The glide - slow, direct and light
The float - slow, indirect and light
The wring - slow, indirect and heavy

It is not possible to combine some elements of singing, these are the ones mainly examined
Experimenting with sound production in this way makes the voice more flexible and heelps the singer to understand how the voice is produced - labeling efforts in this way is a shortcut for the group is assisting the singer being worked with - "try lightening you press" or "try pressing a litle harder" for instance - the technique worked perfectly, as the recordings of the meetings show

Similar work was done in experimenting with tones, but nowhere near as detailed as this
None of this has anything to do with melody, Peggy, as someone who could sight-read and play numerous musical instruments, played a major part in that side of things

By the way, there was nothing wrong with Harker discussing macColl's politics in a biography - that's what biographies are for
The problem was that he got so much wrong and appeared to have ignored the people who knew Ewan far better than he did
Your own intervention here has taken that even further and have sunk it to the sensationalist tabloid level
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 08:29 AM

If this thread goes " below the line" it will certainly free Jim or McColl from being criticized as Pseud will not, as guest, be able to go there, which is what the "line" is for. Also, Jim, you are very quick to indulge in bringing politics into discussions of other performers.
I do not see how one can discuss McColl and not touch on his politics. To suggest that they are totally separate is absurd and to suggest that being critical of his politics is a matter , the acceptability of which, should be decided by "Mods", is risable.
   This whole McColl thing has been carried out on at least twenty other threads, perhaps we need a moratorium on Mr.McColl discussions, just for the sake of peace.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 08:13 AM

MacColl was one of the most influential figures on the folk scene; he helped to set it up with pioneers like Bert Lloyd H
He and Bert introduced ballads into the revival via the Riverside Series (described by Bronson as the most important contribution to folk song since the work of Sharp and his colleagues - MacColl revives 135 of the Child canon
He and Peggy set aside a day a week for ten years to work with less experienced singer, during which time they evolved a system of work dedicated to singing folk songs
Between them, they made around five hundred new songs using folk songs styles, many of which became classics on the folk scene
The work Ewan left behind, in recordings and in research would fill an archive yet remains relatively untouched...
Yet you would rather discuss his political affiliations and somebody else has just re-opened a thread on his war record - name change next stop
That tells me all I need to know about the state of the Folk Scene in Britain today
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 08:13 AM

"totally ignored"

Virtually all of how we described MacColl was totally ignored by the author presenting a totally different individual to the one we described (from personal, face to face experience)

Thanks for the clarification.

However, I think it is fair to say that the author interviewed a lot of people and that not everybody had the same opinion.

Some people had issues with both Peggy Seeger and Ewan MacColl. I think that the author did right to bring this out, and I think he does balance the different views. I think as I said before that this is what makes it a good book. Not only that, he gives plenty of references so that people can follow up what he says and check it through.

I think it is one of the most interesting biographies that I have read.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 08:06 AM

If I have made a 'hames' then I shall be glad to have it explained to me. However, I based what I said on an example given by Peggy Seeger. She sang something two ways based on ideas from Laban and it was different musically, in terms of melody and dynamics to name just two musical features. But if I was wrong, then please point this out to me politely.

One of the reasons I come here is to learn, and I do learn a lot, though I have to admit that I pretty quickly learned to 'fact check' stuff as nobody is reliable - or polite - one hundred per cent of the time, and, obviously I include myself in that.

Might I be permitted to explain that the reason I found the suggestion that MacColl's politics were 'private' bizarre is that the basic facts of these are in the public domain and have been there for ages. It is on Wikipedia, never mind the book we are discussing. And MacColl himself was one of those who made it public. The book says that at one point even people calling at MacColl's house got asked to join the party, I think the postman might be the example. And he mentioned it in interviews.

This thread is about a biography; I read it and found it fascinating, not least because of the way it situates MacColl's life in its historical and political contexts.

It does also address aspects of MacColl's personal life, and this is perfectly acceptable in a biography. He doesn't always come out of the account smelling of nothing but roses, but that is life. Some of the more poignant details came from members of his family.

Indeed, Harker comments on how personal some of the stuff MacColl wrote in his autobiography was, including comment on the size of his own w***y. So it does seem at odds with MacColl's own practice to rule out the personal aspects.

As for carrying out a 'witchhunt': I have worked alongside members of the Communist Party in the past and I feel that it is unfair to represent what I have said in that light. I cannot see how stating the facts amounts to a 'witchhunt'.

If MacColl were around today, I feel he would have to change. His hostility to feminism would lose him many fans, for example.

I think it would be a pity if this thread was spoiled by the imposition of limits on what can be said, since it is about a book which takes a broad and balanced view.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 07:35 AM

Fine.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 07:33 AM

"I really think it is up to the moderation team as to what is and is not acceptable in any thread. "
It is up to the people taking part in this discussions to decide what it decent and what is not decent to discuss
If you think is is relevant to dig up MacColl's political affiliations I suggest you go and join Pseudo in doing so - bon voyage
Personally, i intend to discuss MacColls work as an artist - Christ knows, the revival needs to discuss such matters if it is going to clean up some of the mess that passes fro folk nowadays

Pseudo made a bit of a hames in trying to explain how MacColl used Laban's theory to help singing
I will dig up explanations of these techniques and put them up for discussion in the hope that there is enough interest in MacColl's artistic work to promote a discussion
If not, this thread will gothe way of all others that have chosen to plouter around in the gossip and innuendo
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 07:03 AM

I really think it is up to the moderation team as to what is and is not acceptable in any thread. Maybe if you contacted them rather than taking it into your own hands these arguments may not occur.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 06:30 AM

How can a persons political inclinations be disassociated with that person?"
Nobody has suggested they have Dave
What has happened here is that MacColl's political affiliations have been targetted
I am happy to discuss my political inclinations until the cows come home (as if they were not obvious); but who I vote for and whether I belong to any political party is entirely my own business.
These issues are my private property and nobody else's
It is no coincidence that the poster who insistes in poking around in Ewan's private political affairs has also targeted his and Peggy's marital relations - this is real gutter-press stuff
I lived with Ewan and Peggy for a time and spent a great deal of time (that should have been spent looking for a job and a home) talking to Ewan
He made it quite clear then (1969) that he has ceased to become involved in Pary Politics after the War - for a whole bunch of reasons
As far as I am concerned, that is as far as this subject needs to go
These discussions invariably get bogged down in personal incidentals rather than MacColl's artistic contribution
I fully intend to try not to let this happen again
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 06:10 AM

How can a persons political inclinations be disassociated with that person? It would be a pretty poor biography of it didn't mention them and a poor discussion that didn't follow that up. As far as I can see MacColl's politics played a major part in his life and they belong on any thread that discusses him.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 04:56 AM

"totally ignored"
Virtually all of how we described MacColl was totally ignored by the author presenting a totally different individual to the one we described (from personal, face to face experience)
We weren't the only ones who felt like this
Peggy was furious about some of the things in the book and still is
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 12:58 PM

"The idea that MacColl's politics were private strikes me as bizarre."
All our political affiliations are private - this is what you are insisting on discussing
Take it below the line
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 12:55 PM

Harker got that wrong along with a load of other things
Ennough of this
You wanrt to discuss MacColl's politics get someone to open one on the below the line section where this sort of thing can be discussed - it has no place here
MacColl's politics were his own business - he had a right to believe what he wished - last time I looked Britain still goes though the motions of being a free and democratic State which seldom allows witch-hunts such as this

MacColl was an important and highly respected creative artist - that is what he is remembered and respected for
If you don't wish to discuss that, make room for those who do please
This has gone far enough

A reminder of what MacColl and Seeger dedicated their lives to
Jim Carroll

Citation for the award of the Gold Badge of the English Folk Dance and Song Society to Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger

Today the English Folk Song and Dance Society honours a Scot and an American, Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger. This should cause no surprise-, the historical links between this Society7, Scotland and the United States of America are strong and go back a long way. The Folk Song Society, the older partner in what became the EFDSS, never envisaged that its work would be restricted to England and some of its members, including Lucy Broadwood and Gavin Grieg made important collections of material in Scotland. When we hearEw'an perform, as only he can, some of the great ballads from the Aberdeenshire collection of Gavin Grieg we can feel some pleasure at the role this Society played in the preservation of this unique and wonderful material.
Similarly the transatlantic links between members of this Society and North America should not be underestimated. The story of how Cecil Sharp and Maud Karpeles journeyed to the Southern Appalachians during the dark years of World War I is well known, as is the rich harvest of material they preserved in English Folk Songs’from the Southern Appalachians. Sharp’s work was an important stimulus in getting Americans to look seriously at their native musical culture and many collectors followed in his footsteps. As a girl Peggy Seeger was brought up in a house filled with the sounds of recordings of traditional musicians then being amassed by collectors for the archive of the Library of Congress.
Peggy’s mother was the brilliant avant garde composer turned folk music transcriber, Ruth Crawford Seeger and her father was the musicologist Charles Seeger, a towering giant in his field, a man of great scholarship and vision who saw that traditional music had an important and valuable role to play in modem society. Brother Pete first became famous with the Weavers in the 1940s, then as a solo performer with ability to move an audience to song. Brother Mike became an expert performer of old timey music as a soloist and with The New Lost City Ramblers’. In such a talented household it is hard to see how a young musician could find her own voice and style. Perhaps that was the impetus behind Peggy's travellings which in the mid 1950s brought this 'scruffy' (the word is Ewan’s description) young woman to England where she met Ewan and formed a partnership that has lasted over thirty years.
Ewan’s background was very different, early life in Salford, in the very streets that Friedrich Engels had described in his classic book of the 1840s The Conditions of the Working Class in England. Transplanted to one of the English heartlands of the Industrial Revolution MacColl’s family may have been, but his parents brought with them some of the treasures of a rich oral culture that stretched back for generations.
That was one part of the MacColl inheritance, the other part was cultural and political a tradition of working class self- education that took its motivation from the injustices and inadequacies of industrial society. This tradition, which stretches back to the radicals of the eighteenth centuiy, the Chartists and the early trade union and labour movements, is as important in the making of Ewan MacColl as that other tradition of songs, ballads and stories he also inherited from his parents.
Although he wrote songs from early on his first area of concern was the theatre. Not the matinee idol theatre of the West End in the ’30s, but an attempt to make a theatre that spoke to the vital social and political concerns of the day. and tried to make people think, understand and act. Ultimately his work found expression in Theatre Workshop which was such an important influence on post-war British theatre.
In the 1950s. having spent years mastering the techniques of acting, production and play-writing, MacColl switched his energies to singing and songwriting. The influence of his family tradition, the inspiration and friendship of such people as Alan Lomax and Bert Lloyd, his collecting, the ideas of such people as the Hungarian composer Bela Bartok, all fused in the profoundly creative and productive partnership with Peggy, who contributed a deep understanding of American traditional music and an outstanding musical ability. Together, the work of these two intensely committed people formed a cornerstone of the post-war folk revival in Britain and beyond.
The rest of the story, 1 am sure, has touched people here in one way or another. The high artistic quality of the enduring musical partnership, the records ranging from ballad collections to modem songs, the
Singers Club and concert performances which always stressed by careful juxtaposition the contemporary relevance of traditional song, the Festival of Fools, the radio broadcasts especially the ground breaking radio ballads made with Charles Parker, the films, the collecting activity which bore fruit in gramophone records, archive recordings and books, but perhaps most of all the songs they composed, at once fresh and modern yet rooted in a tradition that unites the past, present and future.
Strong, positive and energetic people are bound to challenge and upset some others along the way and Ewan and Peggy have not been without both defenders and critics. The important question seems to me to be in the realm of what some historians call the counterfactual: can we imagine what the post-war folk song revival would have been like without Ewan and Peggy? Would it have happened at all? Probably, yes. But would it have been the same without them? Definitely no. It would have been a poorer, less interesting, less challenging movement. It is a notable fact that many who have disagreed with Ewan and Peggy’s approach have not been able to resist singing their songs.
Today we honour two people who have greatly enriched the cultural, social and political life of this country and the world. Ewan and Peggy. I am pleased to ask the Vice President of the Society, Ursula Vaughan Williams to award you each the Gold Badge of the English Folk Dance and Song Society for your outstanding artistic achievement and your past and continuing contribution to the enrichment of the lives of millions of people.
Vic Gammon
English Dance & Song, Vol 49, No 3 Christmas ’87


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 12:48 PM

Freddy Heady

I read 'totally ignored'
as
didn't print anything we said.

I can see why people might read it this way, hence, as I've tried to explain, I took it up as it seems on the face of it that Harker printed a couple of quotations from each.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 12:16 PM

"MacColl washed his hands of British Party politics at the end of the war and had no connection with the C.P. whatever, so commenting on The British Road to Socialism, which was not published till the 1960s would have been a private matter and nothing to do with his contribution to singing"

1 The book is about the political and cultural life of Ewan MacColl. It is not a book just about his singing. His life began before and ended after the 1960s. Therefore, his views on The British Road to Socialism come within the author's remit. Moreover, the date for the British Road of Socialism as discussed in the book is the 1957 version, also a date within MacColl's lifetime and therefore within the author's remit.

2 I am assuming that the author of this well-researched book has his facts correct, so I hope he will pardon me for quoting. This is a knowledge thread, and therefore, getting the facts as correct as possible seems appropriate. This is what I am trying to do, and once again I think it shows how well put together the book is. I am sorry if this appears to be at odds with the 'facts' as stated by other posters. I simply aim to put the record straight.

"MacColl had rejoined the Communist Party in 1952 at a time when 'The American Threat to British Culture' had galvanised cultural policy in a fashion that excited him. The early days of the Cold War were like the Class Against Class period of his youth projected on to an international scale: on the one side was the decadent bourgeoisie of America, with its corrosive imperialistic culture; on the other, the progressive cultures of the international proletariat, with the Soviet Union in the vanguard." (p122)

"But the Communist Party's appetite for the cultural Cold War waned in the mid-1950s as Stalin's adversarial attitude to the United States gave way to a policy of peaceful co-existence, codified as the party's official position in the 1957 version of the British Road to Socialism"

The author then mentions Krushchev's denunciation of the Stalinist personality cult and the suppression of the Hungarian uprising.

"MacColl would take a hard line on these convulsions during his turn to Maoism in the 1960s. …   He dutifully appeared at Young Communist League cultural festivals in November 1957 and May 1958, but became increasingly remote from the party. Some time in the near future - and almost certainly in the early 1960s - he would allow his membership to lapse"

Harker says the precise date in unclear, but hopes that when the rest of MacColl's MI5 records is finally released the question may be answered.

I respectfully suggest, therefore, that it is not accurate to say that MacColl had nothing to do with party politics after WWII.

The idea that MacColl's politics were private strikes me as bizarre. But maybe that's just me. I had the idea that they were part and parcel of the man, and something he was fairly open about. But of course, everybody is entitled to their own view on this.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 09:18 AM

Thanks again Iains
I'm grateful for the two articles - being able to download them is a bonus
I hope Harker makes a better job of Theatre that he did of the Bio
Howard Goorney's book on Theatre Workshop is well worth seeking out as is 'Agit-Prop to Theatre Workshop', which includes three of Ewan's plays
It's often forgotten how highly regarded Ewan was for his theatre work
O'Casey wrote 'A fine play-write - a poet, I think -
Shaw wrote, typically; "apart from myself, MacColl is the most important figure in British theatre today"
Hugh MacDairmid, in his introduction to MacColl's play, 'Uranium 235, probably pai MacColl the greatest compliment when he described Scottish poet/play-write as "the Ewan MacColl of the 16th century"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 09:09 AM

MaColl, the book tells us, was influenced by a classics professor called George Thomson. I had not heard of this character, but one can see why he and MaColl might have been suited to eachother. Wiki says that Thomson voted against the CP's 'British Road to Socialism' because it left out the dictatorship of the proletariat. MacColl also disliked that policy, it being one of the things that turned him towards Maoism.

Thomson had ideas about poetry and theatre which would have and did interest and influence MacColl.

I had never heard of Thomson, and this is another example of the way that Harker situates MacColl in the left-wing culture of the times and provides a fascinating book.

On a minor point of detail, it is Laban, not Laben. I have heard this explained by former critics group members (possibly Sandra Kerr), and I think it comes in one of the BBC programmes. They used it as a way of analysing melodic variations if I remember aright, and if I don't happy to be corrected.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 09:08 AM

I read 'totally ignored'
as
didn't print anything we said.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 08:41 AM

For anybody thinking of buying the book, let me describe some of the research Harker undertook. He did indeed interview a number of people. Foremost among these were Peggy Seeger, whom he interviewed a number of times.   

Others include a number of other critics group members, including Michael Rosen and Sandra Kerr. For me, the fact that he spoke to different people and presented differing views is one strong feature of the book; you get a variety of points of view.

Here is a list (probably incomplete) of other people also interviewed by the author, over a period of several years. He plainly put a lot of work into the book.

Karl Dalas, Calum MacColl, Neill MacColl, Hamish MacColl, Clive Barker, Jean Newlove/MacColl, Vic Gammon, Wizz Jones, Rosalie Williams.

He also had access to the Seeger/MacColl archives and to tapes of the Critics Group.

His list of references runs to pages.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 08:29 AM

Iains

I think the points you make are made in the biography, in some detail. One example would be the use of 'collage' techniques. This is one of the many reasons that the book is so interesting. I am not sure whether you have read the book or not, I'm guessing not. Is this correct? But useful links. I'd still say that people interested in this aspect would enjoy what Harker has to say about it.

Jim

You refer to my post in which I refer to quotations or purported quotations from you and Pat in the book.

This was a response to your own comment. I referred and now refer again to your post of 8th December, 3.05 am.

You said

"I never really got on with Ben Harker's book - I once did a three page analysis of the factual errors and misinterpretations
I know that he interviewed several people for the book and totally ignored what he was told - this was certainly the case with the interview we gave"

You yourself had said that Harker 'totally ignored what he was told', and that this applied in the case of the interview you and Pat gave.

Now I knew that both you and Pat seemed to have been quoted in the book. I could not see how this counted as totally ignoring what you told him. But plainly you were not happy with what Harker did with the data deriving from his interview with you and Pat.

If the quotations are accurate, then in my opinion, it would not be fair to state that Harker totally ignored what you told him. I felt it was only fair to Harker to point this out. Because even if he only quoted some of what you said then the word 'totally' did not apply.

So the question then arose of why you were dissatisfied with the way what you had told Harker was represented in the book. A possible explanation was that you had been misrepresented, which was why I suggested that the quotations might not have been accurate.

In a friendly spririt, perhaps you could clarify what you meant when you said that Harker 'totally ignored' not just what you and Pat said, but also what unspecified others had said.

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Iains
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 06:13 AM

There is a whole body of work on Ewan MacColl, Joan Littlewood and the BBC where it can be argued that their innovative use of sound in the early 30's onward had a direct impact stretching as far as later TV documentaries.
https://www.academia.edu/12512048/Think-tape_The_Aesthetics_of_Montage_in_the_Post-War_Television_Documentary
It would seem to be a neglected part of his contributions.

http://www.cpatrust.org.uk/links/simon-elmes-context/
peripheral but interesting

https://digital.lib.washington.edu/researchworks/bitstream/handle/1773/40029/KARLIDAG_washington_0250E_17360.pdf?sequence=1&isAl

http://usir.salford.ac.uk/id/eprint/12133/3/Chapter_2_-_Ben_Harker.pdf

There is a lot of material out there in a similar vein.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 05:18 AM

Nice article thre Iains - I'm gratefull to get it, it fills in some of the things Ewan said
Ewan made no bones of the fact that much of what he brought to the Critics came from Theatre Workshop
His sencond wide, Jean, took Laben's theory of movement and adapted it for Theatre work (particularly dance)
Ewan brought it to folk song and used it for analysing voice production - Group took what Ewan brought and adapted it individually for their own circumstances
Nelson Illingsworth work was regularly mentioned (apparently his official field of study was Urn Burial)
The most complex work - how a singer relates to the individual songs he/she was based on Stanislavski's so-called 'Method' using 'the application of the idea of "IF"' and emotion memory
This was ground-breaking stuff as far as singing is concerned and, for me anyway, it still keeps my songs as fresh as when I first learned them decades ago
One of these days I really will make a user-pack of the relaxation and singing exercises and the relationship work we did
At least then, if it is rejected it will have been done so on it's own basis and not the urban myths and Chinese Whispers gossip
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Iains
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 04:59 AM

We also gave an hour's long talk on him and were able to set p a mini-singing workshop for inexperienced singers in order to demonstrate how The Critics Group method worked
Do you think this method was exclusively developed by MaCcoll, or derived from prior collaboration with Joan Littlewood?

An insight below:

https://www.bl.uk/20th-century-literature/articles/an-introduction-to-joan-littlewoods-theatre-practice


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 03:57 AM

"but what is the Ben Harker book called"
'Class Act'

Without the work of Ewan, Bert and other dedicated lovers of folk song, Folk Songs proper would have returned obediently to the Library shelves and archive cupboards when the Music Industry spat it out like chewing gum when they decided there was no more profit to be milked from it
A significan and growing number of devotees took up the baton passed on by Ewan, Bert and their like and ran with it for several decades, producing entertaining, well-attended clubs, excellent literature, thousands of hours of new material and a healthy song-making movement churning out many hundreds of songs
Peggy Seeger launched an irregular new song magazine, 'New City Songster, which ran for twenty issues and made available hundreds of songs from Wisconsin to Woomera, taking in Wolverhampton on the way
All this was part of Ewan's, Bert's, Bill Leader's, Gerry Sharp's, Dave Bland's..... and all those other dedicated people's legacy to future generations
It would be a crying shame to see that legacy wasted (maybe that's a bit to contraverial for this time in the morning)

Ewan wrote very little on his theories, he peferred to put them into practice in hi own singing and in work with others
Some of the best talks I ever heard on the singing of folk songs happened at the end of the CG meetings when Ewan would flop in his chair, say "i'm exhausted", then launch into sometimes hour-long soliloquies on a point that had been raised during the work session
Many of these were recorded and, fife decades later, still have the effect of making the hairs on the back of my neck bristle- as inspiring as they were forty or fifty years ago
I'm organising and indexing all those recordings to be archived properly and pass on to the family
I'm hoping that one of them takes those soliloquies and publishes them - that would be a real monument to Ewan's contribution to traditional song

One of the most detailed published examples of MacColl's work and ideas can be got from the (unfortunately overpriced) 'Legacies of Ewan MacColl' - the last interviews, by Allan F. Moore and Giovanni Vacca
No always the easiest read, but in my opinion, extremely fruitful - and uncluttered by the rumbles of old score-settling

It really is time people started to think about what these people gave us before it's to late to make use of it

"purported quotations"
Are you suggesting Harker faked our quotes or we lied to him ?
Either seems to be par for your course and needs to be nipped in the bud if this discussion is to be allowed to continue in the friendly manner it is at present
We spent around two hours being interviewed by Harker for the book at a weekend in Salford Uni. held in honor of Ewan's contribution to folk song
We also gave an hour's long talk on him and were able to set p a mini-singing workshop for inexperienced singers in order to demonstrate how The Critics Group method worked

If anybody is interested, Dave Arthur quotes some of the things I wrote about my impressions of the Critics Group in his rather pleasing book on Bert Lloyd - he took them from this forum, I'm delighted to say
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 05:13 PM

And I hope I may mention this, but it does have some quotations (maybe I should say 'purported quotations' from both Pat Mackenzie and Jim Carroll. With apologies if I have misunderstood misinterpreted or misread something, but it seems fair to Harker to point out that he didn't simply interview them and then totally ignore the results.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 03:54 PM

Steve

Err, its mentioned in the thread title: 'Class Act'.

No relation. The book says he is at Salford Uni at the time of writing I think.

Here is a web site about him:

https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/ben.harker.html


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 03:45 PM

More fascinating stuff!
I have 'Till Doomsday' and 'Journeyman' and have read Joan Littlewood's big book, but what is the Ben Harker book called? No relation to Dave Harker I presume.


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Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 03:44 AM

I can remember Ian Campbell telling me his phone was being tapped.

"Why would anyone pay someone to do that....?"
he wondered aloud.

Never mind about the inaccuracies, Jim. It will be just nice to remember Peggy and Ewan, who were good to me when I was young.

I saw their gig so many times, and they knew so much it never seemed repetitious.

take care Jim.


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