Folklore: Define English Trad Music

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 04:01 AM

"the Kerry and Donegal traditions, for example, are wildly different from each other"
This is true - but only to an extent Malcolm.
The two styles you mentioned are certainly still to be found, but have been greatly eroded; many other regional styles have disappeared completely.
The influence of the Coleman era in introducing Irish American records severely dented regionalism, as did the emigrations, where musicians brought back the very much neutralised styles they picked up from playing with others from different parts of Ireland. The tendency of CCE teachers to teach for competitions has produced what is often referred to a 'a Comhaltas style' of playing.
There has been a series of TV programmes on regionalism recently, the constant theme of which was its disappearance. It was suggested that in many places regional music was identified as belonging to a specific area by repertoire rather than style.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 04:23 AM

A further observation... the key element in English music (southern English, at least, which I believe is what you want to play) is rhythm. Irish music focusses more on melody, and the decorations serve to embellish the melody.

The rhythm in English music is often more subtle than might first appear, slightly off the beat and sometimes with internal rythyms that are easily overlooked if you don't listen carefully. Compare the way Oscar Woods played his eponymous jig with the way most session players do if you want an example of this. If you can get the feel of the rythm and play accordingly, I believe this will help you to fit in far more than the question of decoration, or lack of it.

It's about the "feel" of the music - if the style you're playing "feels" Irish, you won't fit into the session, no matter what historic justification you can produce for the decorations. If you can give your playing an "English feel", by understanding the English rythms, then I suspect any decoration you choose to add will be less of an issue with the other musicians in the session.

The styles of playing most instruments has moved on from the original tradition. Many traditional melodeon players seemed to use the basses more for percussion than harmony, whereas modern players feel free to introduce more sophisticated harmonies. Anglo concertina has likewise developed a "revival" style. Many modern fiddlers, including some of those mentioned by Johnny, seem to include more decoration than the "old boys" did. But the music still has an English feel to it because of the rhythm.

If you can get the rythm right, the rest will follow

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 04:41 AM

I suppose we all have our own ways of thinking about this. I don't play many ornaments (on banjo/mandolin) but I play in a way that (I hope) fits in with an Irish session.

To me, it is very much the rhythm. I find the way a tune set goes can vary depending on who starts it, from session to session etc. but to me they are all in some Irish session ballpark.

I find English rythms different in feel to the Irish range and I find it harder/less natural to adapt.

Hope that makes some sense - it's difficult to explain how I try to feel it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 06:03 AM

very intersting.
I used to play,with a fiddler,who had never moved from his native village In county cork,he had a very oomphy style,and although he used decorations rolls[he never used trebles],the lack of trebling was fairly common in the south west, he could have been [until you listened carefully] mistaken for Walter Bulwer.
his style despite the use of rolls was very rhythmic ,and had much in commone with Walter Bulwer,but then unlike many present day Irish session players he regularly played for crossroad dances.
one day he played Dashing away with the smoothing iron.;intrigued I asked him how he knew that tune[english folksong]he learned it[aurally] by hanging around outside a visiting holiday makers house.
he also learned a few Jimmy Shand tunes from the wireless.
There are a number of things that have caused a divergence stylistically in the 20 century ,and caused Irish music to sound less like English or Scottish,CCE is the main culprit,since 1951,their system of competitions and highmarking for ornamentation have produced a homogenised hybrid,that has consciously changed many regional irish styles,some of which were closer to English styles.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Dazbo at work
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 10:30 AM

You could also do worse than listen to:

Eliza Carthy
Nancy Kerr
Jon Boden

Also I'm sure some of Topic's Voice of the People CDs will have plenty of pre-revival English fiddlers on them.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Long Lankin
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 11:09 AM

Its funny how we tend to view other traditions as monolithic and only see the regional variations in our own. There is no typically "English" style because we see the regional differences Northumbrian, South West, Southern, Northern, Morris (by which I think you really mean Cotswold Morris). Scottish and Irish music is in reality just as varied and "American" even more so - Appalachian, Cajun, Texan/mexican.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 11:55 AM

Search out some recordings and books by Pete Cooper. He also teaches fiddle at the Strings at Witney weekends, in Oxfordshire. This weekend usually hosts workshops in many styles and really is a fantastic weekend away.

As you are now in Brighton, I suggest you also look at some of the workshops held at the Lewes Arms and also seek out the marvellous fiddler Ben Paley.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Def Shepard
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 12:03 PM

glueman is right, there is no single definition. I play tunes (on the fiddle [electric] and mandolin [electric]) The very fact that I play electric instruments rather than acoustic condemns me in some people's eyes, but you know what ? I gave up caring along time ago. I play the way I play regardless of the origin of the tune. Infact I committed heresey last Saturday night, I accompanied a friend while he sang a few Ray Davies songs (the last of the great folkies:-D) It was fun. I operate, musically with no borders, it's the best way, you don't get all tangled up on dogma that way.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 01:07 PM

"You could also do worse than listen to:
Eliza Carthy"
Hmmmm - not sure of that.
"ROCK – POP- JAZZ REVIEWS
Sunday Times ; June 22nd
Dreams of Breathing Underwater
Topic TSCD571
Eliza Carthy has stepped outside her comfort zone — namely, sublime interpretations of traditional English tunes, and original compositions that sit alongside them — to create a folk phantasmagoria of a record. With mariachi horns, fuzzy electronica, achingly pure fiddle playing and the odd dirty grunge guitar, Dreams of Breathing Underwater suggests Angela Carter's magic-realist novels set to music in a smoky circus big top. And dressing up has freed Carthy. While Rosalie retains the lightness of touch of her traditional tunes. Lavenders evolves from a folk-drone into a piece of multilayered exotica; Simple Things applies dub-reggae production depths to a stream-of-consciousness lament. The former folk grail-keeper is investigating the artist/auteur method."
As I said - hmmmm
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Def Shepard
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 01:19 PM

Yeah, and to top it all, Dreams of Breathing Underwater is an absolutely incredible CD. Well Done Eliza!! :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 02:33 PM

Sounds dire - sorry
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Def Shepard
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 02:39 PM

To put it in a simplistic form, I can more and more every day understand why Dave Swarbrick ran away from the folk clubs, plugged in and joined Fairport Convention :-D

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Wolfhound person
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 03:14 PM

Will Taylor definitely looked north rather than south in his playing. In fact he once remarked that Scottish music was merely a subset of Northumbrian music - to the amused consternation of his audience.

And any list of fiddlers that includes Dave Swarbrick should surely include Colin Ross - described once as one of the two revival fiddlers at folk festivals(in about 196-something).

The OP might be more confused than helped by recordings from the Northumbrian tradition if southern English is actually his goal.

Paws

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 03:28 PM

Def Shepherd, do you play in sessions?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 03:33 PM

Thinking again, the OP might be as well off recording some tunes in the sessions that he's finding difficult.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Def Shepard
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 03:33 PM

If it's of any importance, on occasion I do. Do You?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 03:39 PM

OK, I was wondering how you found "I play the way I play regardless of the origin of the tune.", etc. went with playing along with others in sessions.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Def Shepard
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 03:41 PM

haven't had too many complaints in 40 odd years of playing, but I have had fun, and that'd the key, fun.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Def Shepard
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 03:49 PM

By the way, I don't have the crying need to 'fit in' as you so quaintly put it, which accounts for the limited number of sessions I've ever done.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 04:00 PM

Fair enough. I find most the fun comes when everyone is fitting in well together.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 04:06 PM

De gustibus non est disputandum. Os something like that. Obviously the Roman who said that had never visited Mudcat.
You ought to like Eliza Carthy. Oh no I oughtn't.Oh yes you should, yah boo. You ought to like playing in sessions. You ought to hate playing in sessions. You ought to like Irish fiddling. You ought to like English fiddling. You ought to like birls, rolls and trebles. You ought to know what birls rolls and trebles are.You ought to care what birls trolls and trebles are.You ought to know what folk meant in 1954. You ought to know that Lonnie Donegan recorded Rock Island Line in 1954.
Well, I am off to Glastonbury, thank God, where I can listen to all kinds of music with enjoyment. Well, some with enjoyment.And I am fairly confident I will run into absolutely nobody who will insist on buttonholing me and explaining why Seth Lakeman's White Hare is a traditional English folk song. Or why it isn't.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Def Shepard
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 04:08 PM

My 'going electric' saw to it that I didn't fit in with alot of musicians, but that was my choice, and one I have never regreted for a single moment

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Def Shepard
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 04:13 PM

You missed one, You ought to go to Glastonbury. Oh no I oughtn't :-D

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: irishenglish
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 04:23 PM

Ah Jim Carroll-"You could also do worse than listen to:
Eliza Carthy"
Hmmmm - not sure of that.


Do I sense another she's abandoning her roots here regarding "Dreams?" I hope not because Eliza has done this before-with Angels and Cigarettes. What did she follow that one with? Anglicana, and Rough Music, both solid traditional material, and that's not even counting Waterson Carthy, Blue Murder, playing or producing for her mom and dad, etc, etc. If you haven't figured out from the clothes, the hair color, and the piercings, Eliza is Eliza-she's going to do what she wants whether or not you and I like it. In my case, that would be a whole lot. Ok, I only liked about half of Angels & Cigarettes-the one album in her career in which that is the case. I say that comment stands, she is most definitely near the top of the list of a very crowded list that one should start with, whether you think so or not.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Def Shepard
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 04:30 PM

I seriously think it would be to panic in a very big way if one was to think that Eliza Carthy was abandoning her roots, as irishenglish states, she's experimented before, but still retained her traditions. I'll be seeing Waterson : Carthy at the Moseley Folk Festival at the end of August and I have no doubt at all the the traditions will be alive and well.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 04:57 PM

JIm C: go on, have a listen to Eliza C's new CD. Who knows, you might surprise yourself and like it. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with writing songs, liking Mexican music or playing accordions is there? Or do you know some rules that I have never heard of? (1954 only defines folk music...it doesn't define good music).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 05:09 PM

I didn't see much ought/ought not to in this thread.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 09:13 PM

hi all, thanks for the responses, some interesting points... i've been listening to quite a number of names mentioned... quite a few of which i'm familiar with. I play tunes with Ben P quite often and do get over to the Lewes workshops occasionally.

Malcolm, I should listen to more of Gina's playing, I've been to a couple of workshops... however THIS opens a whole new tinned worm,

"some players in the 'modern' Irish style use so much that the melody disappears almost entirely behind the 'aren't-I-clever' frills, and it would be quite impossible to dance to."

Mainly, because I haven't ever head this done, if I know the tune and can recognise it from the playing then I almost always really enjoy the different ways people play.... the more variations, while holding the tune well, the better... otherwise I get bored...

also... and this is for another thread really.....is the music always there to be danced to, J Kirk Patrick seems to think so (intro to one of hism tune books) I really disagree! Shock horror! Mainly befcause well... I can enjoy it entirely independently of the dancing, and know many others that feel the same. But I can only really speak for me.

I do play for ceilidhs almost every weekend, and session abut twice a week average, and I enjoy both... but in different ways....

ax

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 02:54 AM

Sorry, I forgot what a lot of precious little flowers you all are on the folk scene nowadays! I wonder why, when personal icons are criticised everybody starts throwing their toys out of the pram.
I am not particularly enamoured of Liza Carthy's singing, what she does to traditional song doesn't do it for me and I would not in a thousand years use her as an example of traditional English music.
The type of reaction here describes perfectly what I believe to be 'folk policing' and if we are not allowed to express our opinions - what's the point of talking to each other? If Dave Swarbrick hooked it because somebody said they didn't like his playing, maybe he's as well out of it.
Please grow up - as Jon rightly said, "I didn't see much ought/ought not" in this thread either.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 03:46 AM

WEll, I detected quite a lot of "ought to". I was merely trying to point out that there is no moral imperative you can use to persuade people to like what they don't like, or play what they don't want to. My suggestion, JimC, was just that you had a listen to the new ECarthy CD before criticising it,; on the grounds that you might be agreeeably surprised. Whether you actually like it or not when you do so is of no moral significance at all!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 04:16 AM

Who on earth introduced 'morality' into the discussion Greg; my search engine only finds it twice - both in your posting. 'Ought' only turns up in responses to my expressing an OPINION (11 times in one of your postings).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 04:55 AM

Hello,

Al, it's good to hear that you enjoy playing in different styles and for different audiences.

IMHO, if we are serious about wanting our music to survive into the next generation but one, then we need to make it relevant to those who hear it.

Playing traditional dances using the correct rhythm connects those taking part with the maybe unrecognised rhythm of the past. Very few come off the dance floor without feeling glad they danced. Look at the number of feet tapping when they are sitting out.

If a musician wants to demonstrate prowess on an instrument by playing in a more ornamental style or, on occasion playing faster than dance speed, fine! But do remember your audience. What may be technical brilliance to you may be boredom to many! If you are a passive listener, then jigs, reels, etc. played at a breakneck speed pass the ears as a blur. Slow some tunes down and they reveal another side to them. You as the artist decide!

Those of us with limited horizons and small imaginations would much rather that musicians play from the heart...absorbing influences from all around, but always acknowledging that the music is a living, breathing entity that has been handed down to them.

Tell it like it is....not like it was!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 05:24 AM

Sorry Peter, I have been listening to this argument since the days of The Spinners and we are still no nearer a guarantee that the music will survive outside of us little band of cranks. I have always suspected that the 'moderise or die' argument really interprets into 'play it the way I like it' which guarantees nothing.
Nor does the hysteria that discussions like this tend to generate.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Stu
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 05:37 AM

"A further observation... the key element in English music (southern English, at least, which I believe is what you want to play) is rhythm. Irish music focusses more on melody, and the decorations serve to embellish the melody."

Rhythm is as key an element in Irish music as it is in English, it's just different. It might not be as obvious as some of the the yompy Morris tunes but is as important.

Everything is in the tune.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,tom bliss
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 05:53 AM

Gina's fiddle DVD

(Made by someone with the same name as me ;-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 06:16 AM

Whats wrong with playing in the style that you learnt to play? Dont try and emulate any style. It makes the music sound forced, and a bit pants a lot of the time!

I play a lot of tunes (including a very small amount of Irish tunes) in the morris / southern English style which I have developed through local influences (loud, solid rhythm, dont hold the bow at the bottom, drone 2 strings a lot of the time). The response to my music is usually pretty good, but there are the odd people who try and tell me that my style is wrong, I should do this, etc.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 06:21 AM

Stigweard is right on the button. English dance music is rhythmic. So is Irish dance music. There is a built-in cultural mechanism (aka the folk process) that determines that it how the music should be, otherwise the musicians wouldn't have been hired to play at weddings etc. They just have differeent sorts of rhythms. that's all.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 06:23 AM

Hello Jim,

I don't think I implied "modernise or die"....IMHO all music, whatever genre, is on a continuum. It constantly changes and develops. If an artist wants to play ancient Viking music in the "authentic" style...why not? If you want to recreate Elizabethan music or Trad Jazz...why not? But that is preservation. Even then the artist's interpretation might ensure that, in all probability, some-one from that era would think it new-fangled!

There is a place for preserving and a place for enjoying and a place for developing music. Each artist decides for themselves. What I was saying is that our music is not set in stone. Neither are the people who listen to it. If you want to involve them, you must engage with them.

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: irishenglish
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 06:56 AM

Jim C I never said modernize or die. Nor do I feel the need to grow up-I already am and have no desire of returning. MY comment reflected the fact that whether you yourself like Eliza C, the fear that she is abandoning traditonal music would be unfounded just because she has released a (second) album of all self penned material. Fine, you don't like her voice, but I didn't hear you say anything about her fiddle playing

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 06:57 AM

This thread started with a request as to what is English fiddle music, and has rambled around a bit since. For a bit of background, here are two fairly in depth articles on two English fiddlers, the southern Stephen Baldwin and the northern William Irwin.
Alas, we don't have vast amounts of recordings of English trad fiddlers, but Stephen Baldwin was quite well-recorded, and William Irwin, thjough pre-recording era, left a lot of notated tunes and quite a well-documented life. I like this sort of backgroud, it helps to make sense of the music.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 07:07 AM

Whats wrong with playing in the style that you learnt to play?

Well if you encounter the type of problem mentioned in the first post (his [more Irish] style not going too well in certain English sessions), it could be you need to change things a bit, at least for some situations.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 07:08 AM

"Modernise or die", whether explicitly spelled out or not, is an underlying thought that drives a lot of discussion about folk music. There is also the opposing thought, "keep it like it is, it might come in handy some day" which might in some circumstances have as much if not more validity.
    Climate change, peak oil etc, may make it a fact that in some senses society is going over a hump and now has to go down the other side. In which case it might just be that people who have carefully preserved the knowledge of how to build wooden boats,how to sail them or pull them along canals, how to do horse-ploughing,how to farm organically, how to keep warm by burning wood,how to keep warm by wearing sweaters, how to use hydro-power and wind-power of various kinds, how to play lively dance music acoustically with instruments made out of bits of wood and wire : well, you see where the thought is going, it is not totally impossible that this stuff may come back into fashion.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 07:16 AM

I didn't say that Irish music lacked rhythm, just that it puts more emphasis on the melody. The decorations in Irish music are there to embellish the melody, whereas the decorations in English music tend to emphasise the rhythm.

As a player, I know that my enjoyment from playing Irish tunes comes from being swept along by the melody, whereas the enjoyment from English tunes comes from getting into the rythmic groove and seeing where it takes you.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Paul Burke
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 07:40 AM

The decorations in Irish music are there to embellish the melody

Not at all- they can be used to highlight the rhythm just as much, especially scratches, crans and triplets.

I had that Stephen Baldwin record (before someone "looked after" my vinyl collection)- interesting, but I wouldn't use an old man, isolated as a traditional fiddler, and well into his declining years, as a guide to style. In fact, if anyone took up playing like that, I'd take up fusion bhangra-bebop reggae tuba.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 07:47 AM

GUEST,Alex - Fiddler

If I play English tunes in this manner (highly ornamented and perhaps a little up tempo) in a session advertised as English, people look at me as-if-to-say I've walked into the wrong bar.

If I'm identifying you correctly, Alex, I WAS THERE. (Little fat bloke with a grey beard and long black hair playing English concertina and fiddle.) I'm one of those "that's been a novice for a long time" and will probably continue to be for some time yet.

For the information of Greg Stephens who said "Now it strikes me that the session referred to, being "advertised as English" may be "run" by some of those musicians of the Old Swan/Oak "English country music" sort of persuasion, it was run by Will Duke in the presence of Dan Quinn, Bob Keeble, Tony Dunn... I can't remember if Ian Slater was there that time but he often is.

I'm sorry if you felt that your style didn't fit, but the muttering around my end of the room was along the lines of "Who's that young fella? Bit good isn't he." I could point out that there were three fiddlers there younger than you, at least one of whom could vie with you for "best fiddler in the room" but who I think has more of a feel for English traditional playing than you. I think you know who I mean.

I want to play english music but with this passion...

Then do it. You don't have to ask anybody's permission but remember that Lau were up on stage in a packed auditorium, not sitting alongside everybody else in a session. Session playing is about adding your small part to the whole not about standing out for your virtuosity. I remember an occasion where things were getting a bit out of hand when one of the more experienced musicians said "Play to hear your neighbour not yourself.". The effect was immediate and magical.

also... and this is for another thread really.....is the music always there to be danced to

That is fundamental to this thread. For Southern English traditional music at least, it may not always be there to be danced to but that is where it comes from. If you forget that you will have lost its heart.

Next time you come to the Trevor, sit as near as you can to Will Duke. Next time we have Matt Green doing a workshop at the Lewes Arms, come along.

In the end, you've got to do what YOU want to do and you will do that a lot better than trying to do what you think is expected of you, but it's worth doing a lot of listening first even to some of those who may not be technically as good as you.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 08:01 AM

Paul Burke: I agree with your remarks about Stephen Baldwin. It is difficult to see how many young aspiring musicians would listen to those recordings and find a viable role model. Which is why I put a link to the article about him, you do need a bit of background to make sense of music wrenched out of context and recording from an aging musician away from his support system. Compare and contrast with the context in which Michael Coleman was recorded, or the early New Orleans musicians for example!
But after a bit of playing tunes, you can return to Baldwin and think, aha, that's interesting how he plays hornpipes, or whatever.
    I was interested that the original poster was referring to a session run by Will Duke. Now, if I wanted to advise someone how to find out about English music, I would have said leave your instrument in its case, go and find Will Duke and Dan Quinn and listen to them for a few hours(or days).
Mind you it's all southern lumpy polkas with them, with never a reel in sight!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 08:37 AM

"Modernise or die"
"IMHO, if we are serious about wanting our music to survive into the next generation but one, then we need to make it relevant to those who hear it."
Peter,
That's how I read this - if I mistook your meaning I apologise.
Have no objection to experimentation whatsoever, as long as it is recognised as just that. I enjoy George Butterworth's 'Banks of Green Willow' enormously but it ain't folk and it in no way helps to guarantee survival.
I can still remember the embarrassing attempts to popularise my other great musical love - classical music
I believe that folk music can survive without attempted kisses-of-life which turn out to be cul-de-sacs.
Here in Ireland we are in the middle of a rise in popularity of a music that hasn't strayed too far from its roots as to become unrecogognisable - who knows.....?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 09:47 AM

I was simply trying to highlight the differences in "feel" between Irish and English playing styles. Of course it is a gross over-simplification, but in very general terms I think it stands up.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 10:11 AM

Despite the 'Smallness' of this Island we live on , there is a VERY wide variation of singing and playing styles in ALL the 'local' traditions - Nearly as varied as the spoken accents across the country ! Trying to Define 'English Tradition' is as bad as trying to define 'Folk' !

Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 10:11 AM

And 100 !!