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What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?

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Spleen Cringe 25 Jul 08 - 07:27 PM
Richard Bridge 25 Jul 08 - 08:54 PM
M.Ted 25 Jul 08 - 10:46 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 26 Jul 08 - 12:01 AM
Barry Finn 26 Jul 08 - 12:59 AM
Richard Bridge 26 Jul 08 - 04:43 AM
Azizi 26 Jul 08 - 07:36 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 26 Jul 08 - 09:02 AM
Richard Bridge 26 Jul 08 - 09:57 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 26 Jul 08 - 05:07 PM
Gene Burton 26 Jul 08 - 05:19 PM
Big Al Whittle 26 Jul 08 - 05:29 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 26 Jul 08 - 05:32 PM
Gene Burton 26 Jul 08 - 05:39 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 26 Jul 08 - 05:47 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 26 Jul 08 - 09:45 PM
Suffet 26 Jul 08 - 10:55 PM
Suffet 26 Jul 08 - 11:13 PM
Richard Bridge 27 Jul 08 - 01:07 AM
Barry Finn 27 Jul 08 - 02:50 AM
Richard Bridge 27 Jul 08 - 04:01 AM
Jack Blandiver 27 Jul 08 - 05:08 AM
Jack Blandiver 27 Jul 08 - 05:23 AM
Richard Bridge 27 Jul 08 - 06:46 AM
Jack Blandiver 27 Jul 08 - 08:03 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 27 Jul 08 - 08:44 AM
Bobert 27 Jul 08 - 12:06 PM
michaelr 27 Jul 08 - 02:20 PM
Richard Bridge 27 Jul 08 - 02:43 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Jul 08 - 02:45 PM
Barry Finn 27 Jul 08 - 03:03 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 27 Jul 08 - 04:20 PM
Richard Bridge 27 Jul 08 - 05:46 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 27 Jul 08 - 05:58 PM
Richard Bridge 27 Jul 08 - 06:23 PM
Richard Bridge 27 Jul 08 - 06:26 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 27 Jul 08 - 06:30 PM
Barry Finn 27 Jul 08 - 09:45 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 27 Jul 08 - 10:15 PM
M.Ted 28 Jul 08 - 12:41 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 28 Jul 08 - 12:56 AM
Barry Finn 28 Jul 08 - 01:24 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Jul 08 - 04:19 AM
Barry Finn 28 Jul 08 - 05:24 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 28 Jul 08 - 09:58 AM
Richard Bridge 28 Jul 08 - 01:22 PM
Big Al Whittle 28 Jul 08 - 02:15 PM
GUEST,TJ in San Diego 28 Jul 08 - 03:44 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 28 Jul 08 - 03:54 PM
Barry Finn 28 Jul 08 - 04:59 PM
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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 07:27 PM

Well said, M. Ted. With you 100% on this.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 08:54 PM

I only just caught up with this thread, and that because of comments on another thread about how bad it was here. I'm not usre it is taht bad here. Some overblown irrational raving, but equally some very insightful statements.

Ther are two questions in the thread title, and the second can logically only be answered after the first. Since the vast preponderance of 'catters do not seem to want to reach any understanding of the first any sustained rational attempt to answer the second is unlikely.

If one applies the 1954 definition and related views, there are going to be two problems attached to categorising "rap" as "folk". THe first is that many folk historians and academics seem to see anonymity as an essential for folk music or song, whereas the insistence of modern rap on commoditisation makes anonymity anathema.

Secondly, the pride of authorship means that although some standard phrases in rap get recycled, most modern rap is not recycled in retelling so there canbe no "folk process" in its descent. The form seems to arise from the community, but it is not folkloric.

I would also comment that I don't see "straghtedge" used in the UK music world in the sense that Wikipedia suggests.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 10:46 PM

As one who practices the law, Richard, you know that one needs to begin with the statute.
Submitted for your consideration, the "official" definition of folk music laid out in 1954 by the International Folk Music Council:

Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are: (i) continuity which links the present with the past; (ii) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (iii) selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives … The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community … The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character.



You may proceed.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 12:01 AM

Of course the arguement is going to be made based on the last sentence - that rap is "composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged", but the true story is that is is music that was made by a community and taken over by popular music.

I just opened Pete Seeger's book "The Incompleat Folksinger" to get his take on the "folk process". He described a statment made by Dr. Duncan Emrich, formerly in charge of the Archive of American Folk Song. Emrich stated that there would soon be no more folk singers, and he based his statement on similar definitions.

But Pete wrote: "What Emrich didn't figure was that new traditions of folk music will emerge, even though the old ones will have faded. All definitions change with the centuries. What is called a "play" nowadays is far different from what was called a "play" in Shakespeare's time. The definition of folk songs and folk singers are liable to change also.

Folks will insist on it.

In the 1960's there was a flood of good new American songs written by young people who are singers and guitar pickedrs, who try out their new songs every week on small, informal audiences. They know right away how their song is being received, and if it needs amending.

Are these songs folk songs? They might fit one definition, but certainly would not fit another. The important thing is: are they good songs? Do they sing well? Is the poetry so good you can't get it out of your head? Are the words true, and do they need saying? Does the music move you?

It's worth pointing out obvious differences between these songs and what we usually call "pop" songs:
1) They're often concerned with controversial subjects.
2) They may be short or long, or ignore the Big Beat and other time-honored jukebox requirements.

On the other hand, I'd guess that most of these songwriters are very glad if their songs make the top forty and are sung by all kinds of singers, as long as the songs are not massacred in the process. Whether or not the songs have this brief flash of lucrative notoriety, some of them are picked up by some of the millions of guitar pickers in our country, and the best will be handed on to future generations.

Then some professor can come along and collect them. He can call 'em folk songs then, if he wants. The dust will not object."

That was published in 1972. I think Pete's definition fits the definition of "folk music" that includes the catagory of "rap". As far as I'm concerned, it says it all.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 12:59 AM

Hi Frank, I did not try to seperate Rap from the Arfo-American culture, reread my statement "it was their art form from the beginning & the music only came after in started going commerical". I stopped writting poetry before the age of 20 when I also stopped rapping. Yes I could rap as well as any kid growing up in the inner city that came from a racialy mixed community. I was in that community that embraced Rap Browns speaches & they embraced his rapping style. there was no music in it. Take the musical back up away & you still have rap in it's original style (almost). The music was used to elevate it to commerical sucess & freedom. Funny how the musical side of this art was used to catapult it into the arena of capital mass productioan where a white boy could get there mouth & hands into the act, sound familar, think the blues

If you take a poem & set it to words it becomes a song or a poem set to music, take away the music & it is no longer a song unless you sing it, if you don't sing it goes back to being a poem & only a poem. So if a rapper isn't singing but he's being backed up by music you may say it's a song, I don't feel quite that strong about that but you take away the music & the rapping is rhyming & not singing then it's just a plain poem without all the glitter & attraction, it's no longer a song
I didn't say it wasn't a folk form or art. Have you people no standards at all to hold you what you'll except & expect as an art form or as a musical form. Go throw a bucket of paint on a canvas wall & come up with a good reason why it should be hung in a museum gallery.

Don, I do think that with my backgroud I qualify to comment on this thread I came out of the inner city very tough & very poor & at a time when rap was sowing it's seeds.

"I instinctively flinch at That's not music! type statements. Call it a reflex reaction. Nothing personal, Barry"

That's ok Spleen, next time try not to knee jerk.

Frank, when I 1st heard Gil Scott-Heron's "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" & the Last Poets material (without any musical backup I add) I didn't see them as a line going back to West Africa. I did see them as a new breed of protest in an art form. The blues & the prison work songs before them & the songs of slavery before that in not part of that same line. Those were songs to get through life & in no way were they even attempting a political statment that's a US bron thing not something that's a direct line to West Africa.
You may have to do a lot of footwork & fancy dancing to make those connections, at least by my standards.

Matt; "For myself< I just think your wrong"

Then we agree that we won't come to any sort of agreement soon, deal.

Richard & Ted
I'm fine with or with your 1954 guidelines though I wasn't asked my opinion back then I was really to young to contribute.
So I'll leve here with this the 1st time I was exposed to rap within it's own community there was no tradition (and no music I'll again add, it was all verbal back then, that was in the late 60's early 70's nearly 40 yrs ago.
Why don't we meet here in another 40 yrs & see where it's gone to & then we might have a better handle on how it has or hasn't entered into some sort of tradition.

G'day, G'nite
Barry


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 04:43 AM

Yes M Ted, I know the 1954 definition, thank you, but one might also consider the parameters applied by Cecil Sharp one of which was that the song be anonymous.

Ron, the question of whether one likes or oneself adopts to play or sing a particular song may well depend on whether it is "good" (or, rather, to one's taste) or not, but that is not the same as whether it is "folk".

There is an argument that the 1954 definition needs to evolve, and of course as we have been told (although no-one has taken us to the detailed sequence) the Council, as well as changing its name, has amended the definition it uses. But that emphasises that in order to ask whether rap is the new folk one has to be able to define "folk". It's another reason why we need a definition for "folk" but it does not inform what that definition should be.

If one takes the 1954 definition, however, although the form of rap msic may have started in the community, and although that form may have evolved or been corrupted by crass commercialism, each individual song remains the same, and no or virtually no songs pass into general public performance by persons other than the original recording artis, and even when performed by ordinary peole (as distingushed from recording artists) the songs remain slavishly the same because the performer is seeking to emulate the original recording.

As to the concerns of the OP, I am advised that if you are kept awake by the late night rap music of the neighbours, a good loud burst (a couple of kilowatts should do it) of a recording traditional "top line only" music played on the crumhorn (which has a very penetrating sound perhaps nearly as carrying as kick drum or bass guitar) should make the point early the following morning. It was the remedy applied by Growler (or so he said) to those having "street" type music played loudly from recording at their barbecues in his street so he told me, but it might help that he is aout 6 foot 6 and burly with it.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 07:36 AM

Some people may be interested in reading this article:

Roots and Routes: The connections between dancehall and rap
By Hannah Appel   
http://www.jahworks.org/music/features/rap_dancehall.html


Here's a longish excerpt of that article:

"There are more similarities than not between dancehall and rap music. From shared musical and social histories going back to pre-Middle Passage Africa through today where rhythms and lyrics transmit at rapid speeds via modems, televisions, and the radio, the interconnectedness of these two musical forms is undeniable. DJs and rappers sample one another's material with reckless creativity, and look to one another for collaboration and inspiration...

Origins
Though many of the links between rap and dancehall are more abstract, like African retentions or similarities in language use, their most fundamental relationship is a perfectly tangible one: Jamaican immigrant Clive Campbell (a.k.a. DJ Kool Herc) brought his knowledge of Jamaica's budding dancehall tradition to the Bronx, and in 1974, he invented the break beat, widely understood to be the founding moment in hip-hop music. This celebrated moment, when hip-hop music (rap) was born out of Jamaican dancehall traditions, could use a little context of its own.

Though we have come to understand dancehall primarily as a contemporary form of Jamaican popular music in which DJs and singers perform and record over pre-recorded rhythms, dancehall as a culture and concept has a much longer history than that. Dancehall is also the space where dances are held and where sound systems and artists performed long before the technological innovations of the dancehall music we hear today. Moreover, like hip-hop, dancehall refers not only to a music and a space, but to a whole culture that encompasses music, language, dance, dress, and world views.

Hip-hop and Dancehall's Musical Similarities
In what other ways are dancehall and rap music related? For the sake of simplicity, let's divide these connections into two broad categories: musical links and socio-cultural links. Of course this is a gross over-simplification and it is impossible to truly separate music from the culture that generates it, but for purposes of introduction, we'll look at the formal musical traits that rap and dancehall share.

Certainly the innovations of Kool Herc provide the defining shared musical connection between rap and dancehall, but we have to look much farther back than Clive Campbell's immigration to see how these musical styles came to share so many of their formative elements. Rap and dancehall share two fundamental and definitively African elements: orality and rhythm, that date back to sub-Saharan Africa far before the forced migrations of slavery.

With their lyrical focus and ability to manipulate language for speed, affect, content, etc., rappers and DJs are the contemporary incarnations in a long line of orators, following the West African griot figure, or one who would spread news and stories in the community. Many writers and thinkers have also related the orality of dancehall and rap to the West African concept of "nommo," which understands the power of the word to be the power of life itself. To speak something or to "speak on" something is to generate it, or make it come into being. (See the work of Henry Louis Gates or Geneva Smitherman.)

The second definitively African element that both rap and dancehall share is their mutual reliance on rhythm. While the foundation of music that comes out of classical European traditions is with melody, music informed by classical African traditions relies almost solely on rhythmic creativity and layering. Rap and dancehall both share this reliance on rhythm, offering their lyrics over heavily laden bass tracks full of drum machine sound effects, handclaps, and even traditionally melodic instruments like the guitar or the horn used as rhythmic accompaniment. (Think of the "one drop" in reggae or the horn section in often sampled funk riffs.)

While it's important to acknowledge the African musical roots of these traditions, those roots are only one part of a much larger picture. That larger picture is a much more modern view in which rap and dancehall both rely extensively on newer technologies (microphones, turntables, amplification, keyboards, computers, etc.) and the extraction and recycling of old musical material into something new and exciting, a process known in hip-hop as sampling (and a habit so ingrained in dancehall it doesn't have a name.)

These changes took place in urban points in the African Diaspora [in]Kingston, New York, etc. The technological innovations of the second half of the twentieth century are really the musical heart of rap and dancehall. These technological advances include allowing the sampling of recorded material, and transporting an entire sound system not only across countries but also across oceans. Certainly the earlier innovations, like record players and microphones, were central to the musical forms, but it is the more recent developments in information technology that are speeding up the relationship between rap and dancehall music and the cultures out of which they come...

The music industries in both Jamaica and the U.S. are deeply affected by this informal economy in all kinds of ways, from bootlegs, to artists' individual connections to organized crime. (If you don't believe me, just listen closely to the musicÉ Which brings us to another shared lyrical tendency: boasting and posing as a "bad man" when you may or may not have done all the things you say you have. Although suffice it to say, many of the connections and claims are true.)

This has been a bare and decidedly incomplete introduction to some of the relationships and connections between rap and dancehall music and culture. More exploration can be done on topics like language, or the relationship of music to money and the market.

For examples of musical cross-breeding, it is fair to say that any dancehall album you listen to will have clear hip-hop influences, if not several guest rappers. Hip-hop albums similarly co-opt Jamaican traditions and artists for cameos. Beenie Man's recent spate of appearances with everyone from Lil' Kim (Straight from Yard) to Janet Jackson is one example, as is the Wu Tang Clan on the recent Capleton single "Judgement Morning."

eend of article

Here's the information presented on that website about the author of the article:

Hannah Appel is a San Francisco native who has spent the last two years in Kingston, Jamaica on a Fulbright grant, studying language and music. She has a B.A. in anthropology from Yale University, with a Caribbean studies focus. She makes a mean red peas soup and can "log on" and "zip it up" with the best of them.


-snip-

In my opinion, this entire well written article is well worth the read.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 09:02 AM

Richard - it is NOT a question of whether the song is good or not that makes it folk, it is the process in which a song is utilized and the community that creates it that makes it folk. Rap fits any definition that I've seen, including the sacred 1954 def.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 09:57 AM

Yes Ron, I said that - at least the first sentence. As to the second sentence, I disagree. In folk the community filters adn creates teh form of the song. In rap the community created the style adn each artist jealously guards his/her own form.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:07 PM

""Oi, Don, hold your horses! I don't think Sedayne was in any way specifically refering to you. The last word for Sedayne is "troll" unless that's a specific reference to degree of hairiness...

So open your ears, and maybe your hearts and minds will follow. Or in the words of the great George Clinton free your mind and your ass will follow...""

In view of the fact that he used an out of context sentence from my post to introduce his diatribe against the folk community, who do YOU suppose he was referring to SPECIFICALLY?

In addition to that, what PRECISELY qualifies him to decide who IS entitled to express an opinion, and who is NOT?

You obviously know Sedayne in the real world. I do not, and I can only suggest that the best way to avoid being seen as a troll might be to stop acting like one, and show just a modicum of respect for others' rights to hold opinions.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:19 PM

It probably is folk- but it isn't folk music.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:29 PM

what I can't understand is (Perry!)....

You always say it is future generations who decide what is entering the folk tradtion. Then immediately you say, But I bloody well know what folk music is, and you don't......

That question is irrelevant, incompetent and immaterial......counsel will aproach the bench.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:32 PM

i remember this same 'debate' here from at least 2 or 3 years ago.....


ask this question..




is FOLK the old RAP ?


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:39 PM

No. Folk is the new folk. With vocal melody.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:47 PM

yeah, but 'PUNK' was post "Jack the Lad" provincial youth folk rock
with cheap Woolworth
electric guitars and amps


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 09:45 PM

"In folk the community filters adn creates teh form of the song. In rap the community created the style adn each artist jealously guards his/her own form. "

Sorry Richard, for that sentence, I completely disagree.   The form is out there. There is a competition among rappers, but the same could be said about folk songs. There was a time when everyone had their "party piece" that was shared. That was part of a tradition. Same process, different times, different styles, same folk roots.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Suffet
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 10:55 PM


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Suffet
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 11:13 PM

Greetings:

Hasn't the North American tradition contained many examples of lyrics set to non-melodic music? Among them are: Utah Phillips' long poetic recitation in the middle of Phoebe Snow. The rhythmic doggeral of cowboy poets. The jazz poets from the 1920s through the beatniks of the 1950s to Gil Scott-Heron's The Revolution Will Not Be Televised. The various and sundy talking blues. Peter LaFarge's The Ballad of Ira Hayes. Commercial country novelty songs such as Big Bad John, The Baron, and Convoy, to name just three well known examples. How are these any different from rap?

Just asking.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 01:07 AM

Ask your self Ron. Would JayZ perform a Snoop Dogg piece?

Would any emergent rapper re-perform a rap made popular by any pre-existing artist?

Surely the answer to that is "No" - isn't it?


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 02:50 AM

Not only is the answer to that no but it could very well set off a bloody musical "turf war".

But I'm sure that as one older incon mentor passes on his style, words & trademark phrazing to their proteges, they will retain in the oral tradition how the song was 1st recorded in the field & the evolutionary changes the songs have gone through (whilst avoiding copyright & legal issues)as it passes through the community f singers or rappers as the case may be & also where the various varints & versions sprouted from.

Damn, a folk genre all in a mere 40 yrs, an anomaly for sure.

And here I thought I have to wait untill I died to see & hear that happen


Barry


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:01 AM

There lies, I think, the nub of it. Is it sufficent to qualify as "folk" if "style, words & trademark phrasing" (I assume here that you mean short phrases of words, not a substantially entire lyric) are retained in and modified by the community?

As I read the 1954 definition it would only suffice if the song as such were so treated.

Somewhat similarly if C#'s view that a folk sing has to be anonymous is correct then the pride of authorship in the rap movement negates the possibility of rap songs being folks songs.

That takes us back to the question of how accurate the 1954 definition and C#'s opinion were.

IMHO the requirement that the song has been adopted into and modified by the community is correct, but the requirement that the song be anonymous is probably no longer correct.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 05:08 AM

what PRECISELY qualifies him to decide who IS entitled to express an opinion, and who is NOT?

If expressing your opinion amounts to an unqualified rant against something you have absolutely no experience or understanding of, which you clearly don't in this instance, then I'd say said opinion was really best kept to yourself. It's a negative outpouring - perhaps even trolling in Mudcat parlance - indicative of broader levels of such bigoted intolerance in the so-called folk community. As for what qualifies me to say this, simply my belief in living and letting live & that it takes all sorts to make a world.

As someone for whom all music is folk music as I've never heard a horse sing a song, then by that definition alone, rap is folk. There's nothing new about rap and hip hop, with an established & evolving structural vocabulary going way back, as has been shown. It is as old, if not older, than Folkie Folk Music, which only begins in 1954, born from a theoretical construct based on an interpretation of certain corporeal precedents which may, or may not, have seem themselves in that way, or in any way at all. Like all folklore, it's only the folklorists who perceive it as such.

In terms of both the Spleen Process and the Horse Definition, then rap, along with all world human musics, bar none, is folk music because all music is folk music by default. However, whether or not these musics see themselves as folk music is another matter entirely. Personally I doubt they would out of dread association with what Folkie Folk Music has become as a result of its own somewhat precious definition (1954 or otherwise) thus informing the self-serving bigoted myth that is the very worst of what Folkie Folk Music has become in its self-imposed cultural exile from folk music as a whole. You want evidence of that, look no further than this thread.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 05:23 AM

IMHO the requirement that the song has been adopted into and modified by the community is correct, but the requirement that the song be anonymous is probably no longer correct

It is the genre as a whole we're looking at here; the collective cultural process by which said genre lives & breathes & perpetuates itself by virtue of its own transfiguration. The essentially occult & objective nature of this process gives rise to the subjective brilliance which is it immediate and singular manifestation, very often upping the anti for the entire genre, restructuring the whole thing. In jazz, think John Coltrane, who was only building on what others had done before him; think Rahsaan Roland Kirk who took it onto another level. In folk, think Davie Stewart: an idiosyncratic genius giving voice to a tradition; he may not be actually writing it, but in purely corporeal & creative terms, he is the medium conducting a very essential seance. The individual voices of rap are similarly mediumistic; the tradition being reinforced in fierce competition with clear rules wherein skills are honed and perfected and the music as a collective entity is enforced and sustained. Whether this makes it folk music or not is another matter, because folk music, in any case, doesn't actually exist, but it does make it a powerful and beautiful music and a force, and manifestation, of human musical genius on a par with any other.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 06:46 AM

Oh shit, horses again.

And, what is worse, a horse that appears to have eaten several dictionaries without learning how to convey meaning.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:03 AM

In simple language, Richard:

All music is human and therefore folk by default. The 1954 definition is a manifestation of the same voyeuristic patronisation which is the wellspring of all perceived folklore, which only becomes such when actually defined, otherwise it gets along just fine without it. Rather like language with linguistics, the latter existing only by virtue of the former, but nevertheless giving rise all manner of pedantry, which I fear is the case here. Taxonomy creates systems by virtue of its own method - these systems are figments of the taxonomical process. Folk music is one such figment; it is a theoretical construct, and has no actual meaning beyond what is in terms of actually experiencing the bloody thing. Some people use stamps to stick on envelopes, others collect them & catalogue them; some people use trains for getting from A to B - others spot them. Some people sing traditional songs as part of a celebratory collective catharsis - others... well, I'm sure you know what I'm saying.

Sherlock Holmes warned against making the facts fit the theory; with the 1954 definition, I fear that's exactly what has happened. All real music is subject to the same folk process - be it pop, rock, jazz, hip-hop, gamelan, drum & bass, country, classical, whatever. The imaginary music you call Folk is rather like a model railway, which is in every way authentic, exact in every detail, but in no way is it real. As I have said before, the difference between your average Model Railway Enthusiast and your average Folk Music Enthusiast (myself included) is that the former would at least recognise a real train should they see one.

I love Traditional English Folk Song (English as in language rather than nation); it's what I do, and how I spent most of my social life - interfacing with others in folk clubs, festivals & singarounds in a collective experience which is, after all, strictly empirical. I know this works for me; I trust in it implicitly and I dearly love all the singers & enthusiasts & musicians & dancers & organisers who make this thing the living breathing wonderful thing that it is. I am, however, under no illusions as to what it is, or else its relationship to the rest of world music, which is part and parcel of the appeal I reckon; we quirky eccentric individualists who immerse our evident idiosyncrasies into the collective experience of a Bloody Good Sing.

But out there in the real world...

No matter; folk isn't about the real world. If it was, chances are, I wouldn't be interested. The Folk World exists in oblique parallax to the real world, but shares a similar necessity; in short, it sings about how good the old one was.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:44 AM

Richard, You are correct - it is highly doubtful thay JayZ would perform a Snoop Dog piece. Again, I consider that very similar to the "party piece" analogy and the fact that many collectors would find songs only in the songbag of a single family.

The sharing of songs and the "folk process" are parts of a larger process.

If you wish to cling to the 1954 definition, you can still have folk music without having a folk song.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 12:06 PM

Ummmmmmm, to answer the the question: kinda... Rap is a newer from of "folk music" but in no way "the" new folk... Important difference here... "The" new "folk music" inplies that it superseeds other forms of folk music...

BTW, my son does some real nice rap which, as a bluesman myself, think is cool because we both are engaged in folk music with roots to the black community... And the two forms are not all that dissimilar in they both tell stories of sruggle... And, believe it or not, when he was visiting a couple years ago I have a gig and invited him up on stage and we did a rap/blues medely which was real interesting...

As for folk music... I think of it is the music of the common man played on somewhat primitive instruments played by folks, not in concert halls but at picnics, in the home and on back porches by a large number of folks who, by in large, are not classically trained... I do see it very differently from classical music...

Jus' MO, of course...

B~


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: michaelr
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 02:20 PM

...folk music, in any case, doesn't actually exist.

Well, that should settle it, once and for all. Hooray!


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 02:43 PM

If all music is folk music then the question of whether rap is folk has no meaning. The proposition would certainly surprise most of the denizens of Leo's Red Lion, where there is today a "Battle of the bands" for the opportunity to play a support slot at Bloodstock, and I would be surprised if they took kindly to being told that thier music was folk music.

The expression "folk music" was used with some if not perfect consistency from teh mid 1800s to the mid 1900s. There is a difference in kind, not a difference in style (although there may also be differences in style) nor a difference in quality. To say that the cocept of folk music, like the concept of the noble savage, is a pretension and a condescension does not answer the question of whether the distinction between songs shaped by the community (which is not the same thing as song styles shaped by the community) and songs shaped only by specified creators and/or economic influences is a valid one or not.

It was generally assumed until Lloyd that only agrarian or peasant communities created folk music and song. Lloyd's assumption and assertion that there might be industrial folk song was handicapped by dearth of examples (as discussed on this forum). Both models involve the predicate that there are songs that by evolution are extant in a community so that the current form(s) in the community cannot be shown to be the work of known authors (and I suggest that nowadays that might be despite the known identity of the originating author, so long at the song is no longer principally as he delivered it. It is a "top down"/"bottom up" difference and I have never yet seen any denial of the distinction of type that is in the least credible.

What the correct definition is may be open to some discussion (and I adhere to one view as for example WLD does to another) but to say that there is no distinction seems to me to be unlikely to be justificable. SOme may say that it is a distinction without a difference, but that, too, cannot be so while different societies have different common forms of music.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 02:45 PM

Where the hell is this "rant" in my original post.

I merely stated that IMO music needed to have, not just rhythm, but melody, and for that reason I consider Rap to be rhythmic poetry. I did in fact clearly state that I thought it was a folk art.

The mention of fifty years consideration as to the "folk" appellation was in reference to the fact that many in the folkscene do not recognise anything from the revival of 60s as "folk", a point of view with which I disagree as it happens.

I write songs in the folk idiom, and am well aware that I will be dead and gone for many years before any of them are accepted, if any ever are.

I will continue to express my opinion as and when I see fit, without asking permission from anyone.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 03:03 PM

Ditto on all that Don, thanks

Barry


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:20 PM

"I write songs in the folk idiom, and am well aware that I will be dead and gone for many years before any of them are accepted, if any ever are."

True, but you are making folk music.   Same as Rap. It fits.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 05:46 PM

Well, no, Ron. Don writes some excellent songs, in the folk style (some more so than others), telling of the viscissitudes of working (or unworking) life [strange given his politics - I could not resist that] but they are at present at least wholly linked to him, known to be by him, not varied in their performance (if at all) by others. They are HIS songs about, but not of, the folk.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 05:58 PM

Sorry Richard, it is not the song but the process that makes it folk music - and it fits contemporary defintitions. It is indeed folk music.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 06:23 PM

Precisely. Don's songs have not been through the process.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 06:26 PM

PS - why not start singing some? I am vaguely intending to try to do my own arrangements of some (well, one at least) - reasonably soon. I am sure Don will be happy to send you MP3s of his original songs if you are minded to sing them.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 06:30 PM

Hey, if I sing them - it would no longer be a song! My voice would turn it into noise!

I would certainly play Don's songs on the radio.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 09:45 PM

Don
"I write songs in the folk idiom, and am well aware that I will be dead and gone for many years before any of them are accepted, if any ever are."

Ron
"True, but you are making folk music.   Same as Rap. It fits."

I would tend to think that it'll become a folk song only & if the folk community takes it to heart & includes it in it's repatoire.
If it gets just airplay then perhaps it becomes a commerically sucessful singer/songwriter's song. It can get airplay today but that won't make it a folk song tomorrow. That sometimes requires a bit more time.

Which brings me to a the question of the folk process in which "Rap" would go through the grinder. I have experienced Rap's acceptance in it's community but I have been removed from that community for nearly 30 yrs, so I can't speak to nor would I know of the folk process of Rap.
Anyone care to respond?

Barry


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 10:15 PM

"I would tend to think that it'll become a folk song only & if the folk community takes it to heart & includes it in it's repatoire."

That might be the heart of the problem. There are DIFFERENT folk communities, not just one. It is not something that this group of Mudcatters needs to embrace in order for it to be folk music - nor is it something that you or I need sing for it to be folk. The fact is, there is a community that takes this music to heart and it is part of their repatoire - and not in a staged fashion that we recognize as part of our own "folk community".   You do not need to have a song circle of rap singers at a festival in order for the music to be folk music. It has gone through its own "folk process", yet it is not one that has made the music traditional in the sense that we think of "Barbara Allen" or such songs.

Barry, when you say that you have "experienced Rap's acceptance in it's community" - you are noting the folk process that rap has gone through. It is not a "process" in the traditional sense, but it is a process that grew out of a community - not a single person changing a style.


Also, let's not confuse "folk song" and "folk music". They are two different terms and describe different items - they are not interchangeable.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:41 AM

Just to through a spanner in the works, let me point out that the 1954 definition of "folk" was developed by the International Folk Music Council to describe their work, not DonT, or Barry Finn, or Richard Bridge, or any of the other mudcat "crew.

The definition was hotly debated for years after, and was found to be wanting to such degree that the "International Folk Music Council" changed it's name to"The International Council for Traditional Music"--

The notorious "1954 definition," quoted above from their constitution, has been replaced with this:

"The objective of the Council shall be to assist in the study, practice, documentation, preservation and dissemination of traditional music and dance, including folk, popular, classical, urban, and other genres, of all countries."


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:56 AM

ok.. serious for a moment..

soon-ish.. when most of you old lot are dead and gone...

and my 'punk rock' generation are in our 70's..

and the 80's & 90's rappers are also in line for their pensions

will the never ending 'what is folk' disagreement have reached a happy conclusion ?

or just be lost and forgotten ???



replaced by

'playstation' is the traditional peoples artform of expression..

no no you are so wrong.. its 'gameboy'


yes but the 2004 definition clearly states that 'pacman'
is the religious root of all our culture


corporate pop media culture moves and consumes so so swiftly..


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:24 AM

Ron, I'm not confusing "folk music" with or "folk song" neither do I confuse folk communities because of the places they dwell or the skin color of the dwellers. But I do ask if someone can site where these communities keep their "Rap" alive & just what is the process they the do this? Is it the corner Barber shop, or the local Juke Joint, is it sung on the street coner under a lamp post in 4 part harmony or at parties in the kitchen? Is it actually alive in the community or is it just visible as a commerical enterprise in a juke box or on stage? Pleas explain how this community has taken this folk form on, processed it, honed it down swapped it aroung & passed it on? I didn't see this happen when I was growing up in the same communities where I 1st encountered "Rap" but I do conceid that I was there only in it very eary stages & didn't have a chance to be witness to Rap's folk process.

Barry


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:19 AM

""but they are at present at least wholly linked to him, known to be by him, not varied in their performance (if at all) by others. They are HIS songs about, but not of, the folk.""

Except for one ("Fair Maids of Kent") which has been processed into the repertoire of one John Barden (The Barden of England), and changed by him in a way that I wholeheartedly approve, so I guess THAT one is on its way.

Ron, are you actually in a position to air music, and if so where? If you would like a demo CD for radio play, PM me with an address and I'll send one.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:24 AM

Ron is & has Don, he does have a great folk show & I'm honored that he's aired stuff from my CD more than once

Barry


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 09:58 AM

"I do ask if someone can site where these communities keep their "Rap" alive & just what is the process they the do this? "

Barry, I can only speak for what I see in my area, and what my kids tell me. It seems that rap is created in the schoolyards, lunch rooms, community dances, roller rinks, etc. - places where people gather to party and relax. Rap is just part of the continuing hip hop culture that grew out of urban streets in the late '70s.   

From what I see, I do think that the commercialization of hip hop and rap into the mainstream is probably having the same effect that folk music had in the '60s. Everyone wanted to make some money off of it, but what happened was that folk music integrated into popular culture and changed popular music. The singer-songwriters that developed in the 1970's were part of the evolution of folk music.   I think rap is going through the same changes, and it is impossible to see where it will go.

Thank you also for the mention of my radio show. I will PM you Don.   One thing - I do not normally play rap music! :)   I can't focus on every tradition! :)


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:22 PM

Don's "Medway" original is good.


M Ted - who found the definition wanting (as distinct from disagreeing with it) and why and how? I am genuinely curious about the succession of changes and reasons.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:15 PM

Yes indeed. In a way Super Mario was the Cecil Sharp of his generation.

Lara Croft in many ways represnts what the Hammonds achieved in a less learned but more crudely energetic sort of way.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 03:44 PM

My only response, after seeing so much discussion of this seemingly unresolvable issue, is regarding Rap. To me, music at least consists of a succession of organized tones. I refer to this exerpt from Webster:

"The science and the art of tones, or musical sounds, i. e., sounds of higher or lower pitch, begotten of uniform and synchronous vibrations, as of a string at various degrees of tension; the science of harmonical tones which treats of the principles of harmony, or the properties, dependences, and relations of tones to each other; the art of combining tones in a manner to please the ear."

Where, in Rap, do we find tones? Generally, Rap consists of rhythmic word play, with tones either non-existent or barely represented. I could live with the idea of Rap as a sort of "folk art" or "performance art," but I cannot accept it as a musical form.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 03:54 PM

"Where, in Rap, do we find tones?"

Everything has a tone. The earth even emits a tone as it revolves. If you read the definition that you shared with us, you will see the harmonic dependicies and relationships that please the ear - even if that ear is attached to someone else.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:59 PM

So we no longer need the folk to produce folk music, mother earth we'll do it for us? The folking process now is sub-human & independant of our speices.

"Listen to the rhythm of the falling rain" By some Cascades, maybe in the High Serrias is now a folk song written by Mother Earth

Next we'll be singing folk songs by horses & horses asses

Barry


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