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Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music

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HiHo_Silver 04 Aug 08 - 11:45 AM
Newport Boy 04 Aug 08 - 12:16 PM
Bill D 04 Aug 08 - 12:22 PM
Joe Offer 04 Aug 08 - 12:41 PM
Bill D 04 Aug 08 - 02:50 PM
Tootler 04 Aug 08 - 04:23 PM
Bill D 04 Aug 08 - 05:37 PM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Aug 08 - 07:09 PM
GUEST,leeneia 05 Aug 08 - 10:37 AM
pavane 05 Aug 08 - 11:33 AM
GUEST 19 Feb 09 - 05:22 PM
s&r 19 Feb 09 - 06:25 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 19 Feb 09 - 10:40 PM
dick greenhaus 19 Feb 09 - 10:43 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 19 Feb 09 - 11:20 PM
dick greenhaus 19 Feb 09 - 11:32 PM
DMcG 20 Feb 09 - 02:40 AM
pavane 20 Feb 09 - 02:43 AM
DMcG 20 Feb 09 - 03:36 AM
GUEST 12 Sep 10 - 04:20 PM
Joe Offer 12 Sep 10 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,andrew 12 Sep 10 - 06:41 PM
The Fooles Troupe 12 Sep 10 - 07:36 PM
GUEST,Edgar Bowen 18 Mar 11 - 09:05 PM
JohnInKansas 18 Mar 11 - 10:32 PM
IvanB 19 Mar 11 - 12:22 AM
JohnInKansas 19 Mar 11 - 03:33 AM
GUEST,Doug 21 Jan 12 - 12:50 AM
GUEST,Grishka 21 Jan 12 - 07:03 PM
GUEST,ron 21 Jan 12 - 08:01 PM
JohnInKansas 22 Jan 12 - 04:08 PM
GUEST,leeneia 23 Jan 12 - 04:05 PM
pavane 23 Jan 12 - 04:17 PM
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Subject: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: HiHo_Silver
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 11:45 AM

Looking for free or shareware program to transpose sheet music from sheet music pages scanned into PC


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: Newport Boy
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 12:16 PM

The transpose bit is fairly easy - most music programs do it. Getting scanned music into the programs is more difficult. I tried a handful, and none of them coped with 4-part music.

I didn't see the need for single melody lines - note entry is quite quick and easy.

Phil


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 12:22 PM

This is probably about a 3 step process.
I have seen somewhere a program which will scan sheet music and make a .midi file from it...then there are .midi programs which can transpose to other keys. From this you can view or print the sheet music in the new key.

Now, if I could just remember where I saw step 1 implemented. (I will look around in favorite locations)

If someone knows a faster way, I'd be glad to see it.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 12:41 PM

Well, I've been thinking that a good sheet music scanning program is the Holy Grail. There have been lots of attampts, but I have yet to see a program that will accurately scan music and change it into another format.

Any photocopy machine will scan music, but all the music OCR programs I've seen, make too darn many mistakes to be worthwhile. If it misses a couple dots or flags here and there, proofreading becomes more of a chore than entering the tune by hand.

Finale is the premiere music notation program (along with Sibelius), and it has a scanning feature. I've tried to get the Finale scanner to work, and I just can't get it to do a good job. I've tried other programs, with similar results.

So, I'm stuck copying tunes by hand, and my desk is always full of a backlog of tunes to transcribe. I think the surface of my desk is wood, but I forget.

So, if somebody finds this Holy Grail, please let me know. I don't believe it exists.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 02:50 PM

In the notes of the freeware group I frequent, there is a wish list...that Music OCR item is on it. It is quite a complex problem.

I do see one possibility in a search, but I have NOT tried it yet..

Audiveris, which is a Java application. I may try it, and will post if it seems promising.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: Tootler
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 04:23 PM

I have been using Sharp Eye music OCR for some years now and I find it effective most of the time. It will deal with multipart music and you can export to midi.

A clean copy of a modern style score requires little correction. Older scores do not handle as well.

I am still using the original v1 as the upgrade to v2 I think is a little too expensive for the amount of use I make of it, but I have heard the v2 is much better than the v1.

Although the developer is UK based he prices in US Dollars.

You can find Sharp Eye at http://www.visiv.co.uk/

Geoff


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 05:37 PM

We actually discussed SharpEye a few years ago...... I think I posted it. It was a free 'beta' at the time, and was less than perfect.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:09 PM

"Now, if I could just remember where I saw step 1 implemented"

Let me tell you a tale...

In one South Park episode, The Gnomes were stealing underpants. I'm not making this up, you know. The boys were told that the Gnomes had a 3 point plan to take over the world.

Step One - Steal Underpants.
Step Three - Take over the World!

The boys asked "What is Step Two"... to which the reply was...

"We haven't worked that out yet!"

(Sadly, I know lots of people like that!)


Looks like you have simplified The Grand Master Plan, Bill D.... :-P



"proofreading becomes more of a chore than entering the tune by hand."

The proofreading has always been a PITA, not only since the introduce of machine printing scores, but also from when 'copyists' did it by hand! :-)


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 10:37 AM

What kind of music do you want to scan, HiHo? Because if it's the kind of music that's apt to be on the net in MIDI form, you can buy a music program which will download the music. Then you can transpose it to anything you want with a few keystrokes and print it.

I use the program Noteworthy Composer, and I paid about $40 for it abt ten years ago.

Oh - it's nice to have a music keyboard, too. I use mine to sound out songs that aren't on the net and to write harmony parts to existing tunes. The keyboard needs a MIDI port.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: pavane
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 11:33 AM

I did try a demo program years ago called MIDIscan which did a reasonable job of OCR to MIDI.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 05:22 PM

Can anyone tell me how to transpose sheet music or whether there is a program that I can purchase in order to do this?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: s&r
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 06:25 PM

It's a pretty mechanical job which is easy if you read.

Look at the keynote. Decide where you want the new keynote to be. Count up the number of scale degrees needed to move. Move every note up (or down if that's the way you're going) by that number of scale degrees. Put in the key signature for the new keynote. Accidentals should be copied with the note.

Stu


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 10:40 PM

Unless you are doing an orchestral score....

If you only need a melody.... DO IT YOURSELF!!!...Learn the key signitures (you obviously know the word "transpose" so you are more than only a MP3 listener.)

There is NOTHING "Rocket Science" about the process. Most REAL musicians transpose by sight.

It truly IS Fun to discover and master the process. You will GROW.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

The 'easy way' is not always the BEST way. Take a "Song Challenge" and make tune your own.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 10:43 PM

The solution to someone's problem is not to tell him that there isn't a problem.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:20 PM

Mr. Greenhaus????



IF YOU are asking the question...



I promise...I will research and return the answer ASAP.



It should not be difficult. The technology is available.



If it is "an aspiring musician" seeking an "easy way ...via Key of A" they should learn the fundamentals.



Sincerely,

Gargoyle



Say - Yes - and my next week's research is yours. You no doubt have documents...We live in very different times than key-boarding input. Thank you for all you have done. I am truly humbled and thankful for Susan's and your contributions the the internet community of folk music....and to meet you "face to face (real-time) in a thread."



THANK YOU ..AGAIN...and Again...and again.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:32 PM

No, I'm not asking the question. Perhaps I can answer it, though--
there's a free demo of a program called SMARTSCORE by Musitek (look for Musitek on Google) which seems to do what's requested. The demo won't permit you to save your results, but it should allow you to find out if it fits your needs. I just tried it--haven't worked with it, but it seems to scan multiple lines of a score and transpose into any other key.

on a related issue, though, I could use help. I have some 4800 tunes written in SongWright format. There are several programs--ABCMUS, Noteworthy Composer, MusicEase--that will allow me to convert to ABC format. SongWright, in the version I have, won't support sound cards, so I'd like to change over to ABC which seems to be pretty universal and which, unlike MIDI, lets me synchronize text with music.

My problem is that I don't know how to convert these files other than by one-at-a-time conversion, which I don't wish to undertake. In the old days of DOS, this would be a simple batch file job. Can anyone tell me how to do it in Windows?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 02:40 AM

Dick: much depends on how lucky you are with tools like ABCMUS, etc. and how much work you want to invest.

If you are REALLY lucky, the tools come with a useful command line interface, and you can run them from a Windows command line exactly like DOS.

If you have only standard luck, you have to use do more work. ABCMUS comes with a DDE interface, which means that you can use put the list of files to convert in, for example, Excel, and then use Excels macros to call the DDE functions in ABCMUS. In my experience DDE is designed to maximise your sense of achievement when the thing finally does what you want!

The third option is when neither of those work. There are tools like TestComplete that allow you to write scripts for testing GUI-based tools. Using these you write scripts to pick up file names, 'type' them into ABCMUS or whatever, 'press' the appropriate buttons and off you go. TestComplete is not freeware, but comes with a 30 day free trial. There are other equivalents that are free. Google for 'Windows GUI test tools' or some such.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: pavane
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 02:43 AM

Dick,
I seem to remember that I coded the facility to read Songwright files into my program HARMONY (WINDOWS program) at someone's request.

HARMONY also allows batch conversion for some file types. I will check later and see if it does Songwright conversion in batch. If not, maybe I caould add it for you.


But you wouldn't need to batch-convert anyway if you used HARMONY to read and play the tunes.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 03:36 AM

Here's my Excel macro using DDE and ABCMUS. I loaded the list of filenames into a sheet first, and there were 4025 of them, hence the number in the macro.

Sub Process()
Chan = DDEInitiate("abcmus", "system")


For i = 1 To 4025
   s = ActiveSheet.Cells(i, 1)
   s = "C:\\Program Files\Digital Tradition\Tunes\" & s
   CommandText = "[new][import(""SW"",""" & s & """)][saveas(""" & s & ".abc"")][close]"
   DDEExecute Chan, CommandText
Next
End Sub


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 04:20 PM

I want to transpose scanned sheet music from B flat into C


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 04:27 PM

B flat into C is two half steps. If you've loaded the music into any music software and have playable notation on display, go to the "transpose" function and raise the music one full step or two half steps.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: GUEST,andrew
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 06:41 PM

I use "Finale" for making A Cappella choir arrangements.

I've found scanning music more trouble than it's worth. There's so much correcting to do that it't best just to enter the music from scratch.

If you have midis though, you can buy Finale Notepad http://www.finalemusic.com/ for USA$10.
This will open midis, and then you can transpose.
A warning though! Some midis don't come out too well. Try getting another from the net if this happens.

Finale Print Music will give you much more control over what the music looks like, but costs quite a bit more.

The other alternative is to pay someone to do it for you!

Andrew :)


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 07:36 PM

"Some midis don't come out too well"

It can depend on the original source. I seen midis originally generated by some older keyboards, that are not totally 'current standard' and 'do not play well with others'... :-)


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: GUEST,Edgar Bowen
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 09:05 PM

I want to scan a hymn tune in four part harmony then transpose it from D major into C major and print it out.
What is the cheapest and easiest way to do it?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 10:32 PM

1. Play it as written on four Bb instruments - tenor sax & clarinets would work nicely.

2. Little success has been reported for applying capos to church choirs, possibly due to uncertainty about where on the instruments they need to be placed.

3. Find a musician with a pen and paper (or one who already has a simple scoring program).

Answers in the thread above have not changed by much since this thread began three years ago. Both Finale and Sibelius have add-on music OCR programs that may or may not do all that you want, but to get the add-on you must have the base program, and buying the full setup for either program will run nearly $1,000 unless you qualify for "student" discounts.

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: IvanB
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 12:22 AM

Frankly, for one hymn tune I'd probably enter it manually in NoteWorthy Composer, then use the transpose tool. If it's one of the "old standard" hymn tunes, you can probably find a midi for it online, which might save you the entry step in NWC (I say "might" because the quantizing of the notes can be pretty iffy in NWC, rendering the notes in strange durations).


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 03:33 AM

That it is a hymn suggests one might have access to an organ and organist with the capabiity to "play to midi." Many electronic organs as currently used in churches have the ability to record a midi of what is played on the keyboard. Some have the ability to "overdub" multiple parts played separately, to produce fairly complex "mixes" that can be played back, alone or as background parts for actual performance.

Once the midi file is recorded, almost any music scoring program can produce printable "dots."

The immediate problem, as noted for NoteWorthy Composer, is that many common programs omit the ability to "granularize" the note selection. The feature is sometimes seen as ability to specify a minimum note duration to be used for translating to the score.

Very few players can maintain the sufficiently strict (mechanical) timing to avoid bizarre note durations, ties, slurs, and micro-duration rests that turn the score into junk. (The common technical term is "wormy score.")

A similar capability, to play on the keys and record as midi, is available with many keyboards as used commony in music bands/combos, but a skilled accompanist - a talent of some church organists - is arguably more likely to be able to maintian the "boring mechanical rythm" needed for a clean score.

Once a clean enough score is produced, in any key, nearly all scoring/notation programs should be able to transpose it to print in any key you wish.

A secondary problem is that, since church organs are replaced less frequently than computers, most of the ones I've seen record to floppy disks and it may be diffucult to find a computer with a floppy drive to play them back into the notation program.

The "last resort" method might be the best. Most popular (and in fact many fairly rare) hymns can be found on the web. It may be possible to find the hymn wanted in a form that can be downloaded to print a score in the key desired. PDF files of many music pieces are available for download. It's very likely that a midi can be found for download that's "clean enough" to print a usable score uing almost any of the reasonably decent scoring programs. (The midis that convert to scores cleanly usually are a midi saved from a written score.) If the midi prints a score that's usable in any key, the same program that converts the midi to the score can change it to any key desired.

Any kid that survived 5th grade with "Mrs Briggs" in Wichita Ks could make a pen and ink transcription of any common hymn in any key you want, in about an hour; but there are only three of us left alive. It's a skill that most people really should have learned; but if you haven't already penciled out what you want you probaly will have to wait for your second hymn and practice 'till that need appears.

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: GUEST,Doug
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 12:50 AM

I REALLY NEEDSOME HELP!!! I play the piano (a lilttle) and am learning The Army Air Corps, Official song. I am planning on playing this at a WWII Army Air Force reunion this coming fall. A friend also wants to play with me, who is a Alto Sax player. I sent him a xerox copy of my sheet music, and he said it would be great to play it with me, BUT it has to be transposed. Now then, I was wondering how I could get this music, which is written in B Flat for the piano, transposed into the proper music for my friends E-flat Also Sax? To do that note per note, it would have to be transposed into the key of G for his e-flat saxaphone, at least this is what I've been able to figure out. I'm not a music writer, and in no way would I be able to accomplish this on my on. The saxaphone music must already be out there somewhere, wouldn't you think?
Where do I start and where would I go to find the proper music.
Any help woudl be GREATLY APPRECIATED, REALLY!d
Thanks,
Doug


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 07:03 PM

Doug, you found the relevant thread alright; you can use the above methods.

If your problem is only transposition and you do not mind entering the music into a computer notation system by hand: any of these will do the transposition for you. For example, MuseScore is free, but takes a while to master.

If you prefer pencil and paper, here is a special Grishka trick: copy the melody one octave lower, in the bass clef, but instead of that clef, write a treble clef, and a single sharp for G major. If there are accidentals or natural signs within the music, sort them out by playing the result. Voilà.

You're welcome.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: GUEST,ron
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 08:01 PM

Sibelius is supposed to be able to scan a score and convert it to a file. Transposing the file is a straightforward process. I've never done it because I don't have a scanner. An up to date version is expensive but maybe you can get a copy of an old version. Current version is no 7 but I know version 3 could scan in scores. Any one got an old copy?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 04:08 PM

The last time I looked at it (which was quite a while ago) the basic Sibelius didn't do the scan to score. You must buy the basic Sibelius, and another accessory program for the scan recognition to make it into a score. I was seeing something like $600 US (list price) for all that was required.

I think that was a little more than 2 or 3 years ago when I still had some money, but it was still out of my range. Hopefully the situation is better.

Doug - Your alto sax player can read the bass clef as written if you change the clef marking to treble and add three sharps to the key signature. The shift in note position is the same moving from treble to bass, as it would be on a treble clef changing "three sharps up" in the treble.

When an Eb sax player plays a C it sounds as an Eb. If you want him to play the note that's really a C, you have to move the note on his score 3 semitones down, and then jump it up an octave (to keep the notes on the staff). By changing the key signature by adding 3 sharps or removing three flats on the sax score, and putting the notes where they would be on a piano bass clef, then making it a treble clef, it all comes out right. The easier way to do it is the hand the sax player a trombone score, with the clef and key signature marked for the correction.

Sounds like a bad joke, but it works.

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Jan 12 - 04:05 PM

Hi, Doug. I thought yours would be a easy question to answer. Ha! There are many discussions of how to do this, and they are all as clear as mud. I think you are right, however, about changing it from Bb to G.

To transpose it, write out the key of Bb, then write the key of G below it.

Bb C D Eb F G A Bb
G   A B C   D E F# G

(I hope those stayed lined up.)

Bb in your song becomes G in the sax player's song. A becomes F#, etc. It shouldn't take long with a pencil and some blank sheet music to produce a version for your friend. Be sure to test it by playing together.

If that fails, ask the American Legion or the VFW.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Scan & transpose sheet music
From: pavane
Date: 23 Jan 12 - 04:17 PM

If you CAN find a MIDI then my program HARMONY can read it, transpose it and print a score. But ideally, a MIDI which is not "wormy", i.e. hsa been produced with a sequencer.

You can download it from my web site
http://www.greenhedges.com


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