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Tech: Musical Notation Software

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Mark Ross 09 Apr 09 - 11:51 AM
MMario 09 Apr 09 - 11:55 AM
SteveMansfield 09 Apr 09 - 04:00 PM
Eve Goldberg 09 Apr 09 - 06:46 PM
GUEST 09 Apr 09 - 10:49 PM
JohnInKansas 10 Apr 09 - 01:17 AM
Joe Offer 10 Apr 09 - 02:03 AM
s&r 10 Apr 09 - 04:48 AM
Jim McLean 10 Apr 09 - 05:32 AM
s&r 10 Apr 09 - 05:46 AM
Jim McLean 10 Apr 09 - 06:14 AM
GUEST,iancarterb 10 Apr 09 - 10:42 PM
GUEST,Chris 11 Apr 09 - 03:15 AM
GUEST 28 Apr 09 - 04:14 AM
GUEST 28 Apr 09 - 04:17 AM
pavane 28 Apr 09 - 09:22 AM
Barbara 28 Apr 09 - 10:31 AM
Stringsinger 28 Apr 09 - 12:08 PM
Darowyn 28 Apr 09 - 12:42 PM
Stringsinger 29 Apr 09 - 12:00 PM
Barbara 29 Apr 09 - 07:36 PM
Jim McLean 30 Apr 09 - 07:38 AM
GUEST 08 May 13 - 07:54 PM
GUEST 08 May 13 - 07:55 PM
Stanron 08 May 13 - 09:13 PM
JohnInKansas 08 May 13 - 10:25 PM
GUEST,Ed 09 May 13 - 12:05 AM
Artful Codger 09 May 13 - 02:41 AM
JohnInKansas 09 May 13 - 09:20 AM
GUEST,Grishka 09 May 13 - 03:20 PM
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Subject: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: Mark Ross
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 11:51 AM

Are there any programs out there that will translate sounds into notation? Enquiring minds want to know.

Mark Ross


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: MMario
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 11:55 AM

ther are a number that **claim** to do so.

I haven't ever found one that would do so with MY sample rather then theirs.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 04:00 PM

One of the many problems with this sort of enterprise is that people are not machines.

People play notes ever so slightly ahead or behind the beat, they 'lean' on notes, they bend into notes, they slide up or down to them ... it's called expression ;) - whereas machines go BANG BANG BANG on the exact beat.

So even if someone in a few years' time manages to translate sound data into pitch data (ignoring for the moment all the issues around detecting what is the main tune, what is the accompaniment, and separating one instrument from another) the poor computer is then faced with then quantising all the expression out of the music so that it produces sheet music that is legible.

A technically excellent prgramme called MIDIabc does what it says on the tin, eg takes a MIDI track and converts it into abc notation - but unless the MIDI track is played with robotic precision, the abc requires a lot of human intervention to make useable notation.

Add all the extra errors that will come in with converting sound into data, and the sheer volume of the problem becomes clear.

I'm not saying it won't happen .. but we're not there yet!


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: Eve Goldberg
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 06:46 PM

Funny thing this should come up. I have another musical notation question.

I'm looking for a software program to create Tablature. I've been playing around with TablEdit but I'm not happy with the way the TABs print out.

Any other suggestions?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 10:49 PM

A robust program - that goes all directions - including MAC.

Teen friendly.

www.sibelius.com


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 01:17 AM

Sibelius 5, STUDENT WITH VERIFIED REGISTRATION AT AN ACCREDITED SCHOOL, $329.00 (US).

Sibelius 5 without student discount $599.00 (US).

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 02:03 AM

Finale and Sibelius are the two best-known professional music notation programs. They have similar pricing. Finale is $549, with an academic version at $299.
Don't know if either one is able to translate sound into notation, but I think various editions of both programs have attempted it over the years - but not with unquestionable success.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: s&r
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 04:48 AM

G7 is by Sibelius. It costs less and is designed for guitar/banjo/mandolin etc. It has a good printout and is easier to use than the full versions of Sibelius and Finale.

It will print chord grids and/or letter symbols and most useful an be customised so that the numbers on th etab have a white space round them so that it's easier to tell '0' from '8' and '3' etc.

Stu


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 05:32 AM

Over twenty five years ago when I was studying for a degree in Electronic Engineering, I designed and produced a piece of kit I called a Music Recognition System. If one whistled a tune the sound picked up by the microphone was eventually printed out as staff notation both on a monitor and by a paper printer. I designed the hardware and computer software which handled the microphone input. There was no physical connection, i.e. a musical keyboard, with the device, just a microphone input.
I was awarded my degree and told to patent the device immediately but I had no interest in commercially promoting it. I realise now that due to the sophistication in electronic devices and chips (I had to design and make a chip to handle some of the processing) there must be something out there which would translate sound (without using a MIDI interface as in Sibelius or Finale) into notation as I did a long time ago.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: s&r
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 05:46 AM

I can see that single notes in succession could be recognised and noted: several notes simultaneously raise all sorts of separation and recognition problems that I don't think have been solved

Stu


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 06:14 AM

My software couldn't represent chords but one can't whistle in chords anyway! Seperation and recognition of individual notes from semi-quavers to notes of any length longer was achieved. I used a BBC B computer which was very slow compared to present day machines. I was also a record producer in those days and met many 'folkies' who didn't know a crotchet from a hatchet. I designed the device so that they could whistle the tune and the resultant paper copy could be given to, say, backing musicians or arrangers.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: GUEST,iancarterb
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 10:42 PM

Finale is alleged to have products that will refine MIDI input to incredibly fine metric divisions. I can't say by experience. It does do a nice job up to the limits of my poor reckoning of meter by ear, manually input by experiment.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: GUEST,Chris
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 03:15 AM

Music Masterworks (musicmasterworks.com) claims to notate from voice input, and is very cheap and easy to use. I think you can download a trial version.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 04:14 AM

There are few. I use [url=http://www.mymusictools.com/score_editors_30/magicscore_maestro_5_26465.htm]MagicScore Maestro[/url]. It can read notes from Midi, Karaoke and MusicXML files, or when you use its virtual piano keyboard or guitar deck, the notation will be recorded automatically.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 04:17 AM

There are few. I use MagicScore Maestro. It can read notes from Midi, Karaoke and MusicXML files, or when you use its virtual piano keyboard or guitar deck, the notation will be recorded automatically.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: pavane
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 09:22 AM

My program HARMONY (WINDOWS only) can import from abc, MIDI, MIDI instrument to produce a score. But note the comments above - unless the playing is unusually precise, the score will be unusable, even though some quantisation is applied.

(HARMONY will also add chords to a melody, produce TAB, and do lots of other useful things.)

My site


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: Barbara
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 10:31 AM

I use Encore from Gvox, also spendy like Sibelius. I don't know how they compare. Encore's predecessor, MusikTime, and its subset Passport, claimed to be able to turn sound to dots, but I could never get it to work. It had technical ways to control the amount of slop you had in pitch and time, but would still only do single notes (not that I could get it to).
A fellow song page editor uses Lilypond, and likes it.
Blessings,
Barbara


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 12:08 PM

I guess it depends on how you define sound and notation.

Barbara, Encore is a very user-friendly program. What I like about it for scoring is
that you can rehearse the part you want to input by playing back with the space bar what you've written without having to write it in first.

Sibelius looks better. (I wish it had that Encore feature I just mentioned).

Sibelius makes a good MIDI for export. It also can be sent through e-mail.

Mark, Sibelius is a lot more user-friendly than Finale. More done quickly with less steps.

None of these programs will produce quarter or microtones.

Jim, the intermediary MIDI step could be circumvented as you indicated. Maybe you should pursue your approach. I think that a program could be devised to accurately graph sonic information with quarter or microtones used in Asian music or traditional folk.
Charles Seeger had a melotron which graphed lines as on an oscilloscope that could
measure pitch accurately and could be read by a trained eye. Lomax attempted this
with his "Cantrametrics" (sp?) to document the world's music.

I think a program of this order would serve ethnomusicologists very well. It would be great for musicians who want to accurately analyze the styles of various folk musics.
I think that conventional notation programs are limited to conventional music notation.
They are "clunky" when it comes to interpreting the subtleties of pitch and rhythm.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: Darowyn
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 12:42 PM

Conventional notation is limited mostly to conventional music. It is possible to notate rhythms as played, but next to impossible to read back the results.
On the other hand many of the Digital Audio Workstation programs (DAWs) do allow you to record and play Midi based music in non-western scales and even microtonally.
Many Synth modules allow a variety of alternate scales to Even Temperament, such as Pelog and Slendro, to be selected as well as Just intonation or Pythagorean.
Microtones can be reproduced using a controller lane to automate the pitch bend controller.
The resulting display will show accurate timing, including note start and end timing, and basic pitch plus modification as well as individual note velocity on controller lanes.
It will be in "Piano-Roll" format- which I can understand quite easily, though I have never used it to sight read from!
Cheers
Dave


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 12:00 PM

Yes, Dave, but can it annotate microtones with accuracy? And rhythm/tempo?

What is the form the graphics take when a printout is done?

A piano roll is harder to read and printout. What about a scoring device?

Frank


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: Barbara
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 07:36 PM

You can make and export MIDIs with Encore too, Frank. When you save the score, you just save it as a MIDI (it's in the SAVE AS box) And I have in the past imported MIDIs to Encore, I forget how. The GVox website says it has a program that will interface with PDFs -- I haven't checked it out yet. It might solve the biggest problem I have with Encore -- I can't seem to import words from another text document into the text editor, which means I have to type in all the bloody verses every time, adding my own glitches and typos as I go.
Blessings,
Barbara


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: Jim McLean
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 07:38 AM

Stringsinger, I recently graduated from Edinburgh University with a masters in Scottish Ethnology. While reseaching for the degree I came across information on Charles Segger's melotron I was reminded of my own Music Transcription System I designed over twenty years before. You're correct in saying it takes a trained eye to read Seeger's graphs whereas my system printed out staff notation. I agree it should be developed further but it has passed into my drawer containing 'things in the past'.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 07:54 PM

i am looking for a programme where i can scan Bb instrument sheet music, import to my Pc send it ??? transpose it to say C instrument sheet music & print- i am 89 & would like something simple & resonably priced ??
Eddie Jorey NZ


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 07:55 PM

i am looking for a programme where i can scan Bb instrument sheet music, import to my Pc send it ??? transpose it to say C instrument sheet music & print- i am 89 & would like something simple & resonably priced ??
Eddie Jorey NZ


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: Stanron
Date: 08 May 13 - 09:13 PM

Eddie Jorey NZ >

Sibelius does this. I know it is expensive but earlier versions are available at lower prices. They also do this.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 May 13 - 10:25 PM

The last time I looked, Sibelius required an "add on" program purchased separately to read scanned images of sheet music into notation. The "scan importer" program was a couple of hundred dollars in addition to the Sibelius price. At the time, I "priced" Sibelius for what I wanted to do and went quite a bit past the kilobuck line. I considered ordainment (same discount as students for preachers) but didn't have time to hunt up a mail-order divinity school.

That was, of course, a couple of years ago.

If you have the Bb sheet music, it would be a little slower but more likely to work well to just copy (a note at a time - big sigh) the Bb sheet music into almost any "notation program." Once it's in the program almost any of the notation programs can change it to any key you want, move the notes and change the key signature, and print the end result. Most notation programs also allow you to "save as .mid" to make a file that will play on your computer (or whatever midi devices you have).

So far as I've seen, any notation program that can save as .mid can also open any .mid file and make a (printable) score from it.

There are lots of midi files on the web that you can download, so if you have a notation program and you can find the song you want in a .mid, you might be able to to just download, open, change key, and print.

Midi files made by "playing on a midi instrument" can be incredibly messy due to variations in note lengths and tempo "schmaltz" and produce really maggoty scores; but a lot of the midis you can get off the web are saved from notation, and when the .mid file is opened in any other notation program it will make a score that will "look like" the original score and can be quite clean. The key the midi you find is in makes no difference, since the key on the score you get when you open the .mid can be changed to whatever you want it to be before you print it.

I played from a lot of Bb scores, sax and clarinet, until the teeth gave out. I had to switch to playing the sax on a mandolin for a while until the cubital tunnel syndrome hit me. I'm pretty much down to penny whistle and harmonica now, although I might still be able to annoy people with a keyboard if I had a flat spot to sit one on. I knew a great ragtime piano banger who got by with three fingers on one hand and two on the other, but he practiced for a long time and I probably ain't got that long.

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 09 May 13 - 12:05 AM

Harmony Assistant along with the free (shareware) add-on of the score recognition program OMeR will do what you want, and is probably the cheapest option available.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: Artful Codger
Date: 09 May 13 - 02:41 AM

As has been discussed recently in another thread, MIDI is a bad medium for score interchange, because much score information is totally lost and reconstruction is error-prone. Better to export and import via the MusicXML format (or ABC).

I can't recommend a particular program for reading the music and re-scoring (not worth the expense, if this is your only need), but if you only need to convert a few pieces, you could e-mail me image scans and let me take care of it, as long as the sheet music is in the public domain. I can provide PDF scores, MIDI or MP3 audio tracks and computer-friendly notation in ABC or MusicXML. Just drop a private message (see the PM link next to my handle above) with your email address so we can discuss the details.

ABC is a relatively human-readable/editable format (using simple plain-text files), and you can use an online converter (no cost, no installation, no maintenance) to transpose the audio and score to any key. See this thread for more info.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 May 13 - 09:20 AM

It might be helpful to let GUEST (Eddie?) know that if he registers as a member here (free and no invasions of privacy) he can send a PM (personal message) to any member to exchange email addresses without splattering his - or someone else's - all over the internet.

Unregistered Guests can't send or receive PMs.

There are lots of other advantages to getting signed up, but we can brag about those once we get him hooked in.

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Musical Notation Software
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 09 May 13 - 03:20 PM

Those who feel like an adventure may try the free open-source Audiveris. It often ceases its services because of bugs or lack of memory, but if it doesn't, the results are better than those of OMeR - which is not saying much.


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