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Noteworthy evaluation

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Mo the caller 11 Dec 07 - 07:03 AM
maeve 11 Dec 07 - 07:23 AM
Newport Boy 11 Dec 07 - 07:29 AM
GUEST,PMB 11 Dec 07 - 07:30 AM
Carol 11 Dec 07 - 07:35 AM
vectis 11 Dec 07 - 08:30 AM
Mo the caller 11 Dec 07 - 08:43 AM
GUEST,DMcG 11 Dec 07 - 08:59 AM
Newport Boy 11 Dec 07 - 09:05 AM
dick greenhaus 11 Dec 07 - 09:32 AM
Mo the caller 11 Dec 07 - 09:43 AM
MMario 11 Dec 07 - 09:46 AM
Mo the caller 11 Dec 07 - 09:56 AM
MMario 11 Dec 07 - 10:00 AM
Mo the caller 11 Dec 07 - 10:15 AM
Wolfhound person 11 Dec 07 - 10:58 AM
Mo the caller 11 Dec 07 - 11:13 AM
GUEST,pattyClink 11 Dec 07 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,pattyClink 11 Dec 07 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,leeneia 11 Dec 07 - 12:41 PM
Mo the caller 11 Dec 07 - 02:32 PM
JohnInKansas 11 Dec 07 - 02:51 PM
GUEST,Jon 11 Dec 07 - 03:08 PM
GUEST,leeneia 11 Dec 07 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,Jon 11 Dec 07 - 03:23 PM
GUEST,crazy little woman 11 Dec 07 - 03:29 PM
Tootler 11 Dec 07 - 04:40 PM
JohnInKansas 12 Dec 07 - 10:13 AM
MMario 12 Dec 07 - 10:18 AM
GUEST,Jon 12 Dec 07 - 10:53 AM
Jack Campin 12 Dec 07 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,PMB 12 Dec 07 - 11:33 AM
Grab 12 Dec 07 - 11:34 AM
dick greenhaus 12 Dec 07 - 12:11 PM
JohnInKansas 12 Dec 07 - 12:33 PM
Joe Offer 12 Dec 07 - 12:44 PM
Jack Campin 12 Dec 07 - 12:46 PM
Tootler 12 Dec 07 - 07:16 PM
Tootler 12 Dec 07 - 07:29 PM
Jack Campin 12 Dec 07 - 08:04 PM
Mo the caller 13 Dec 07 - 05:50 AM
GUEST,Jon 13 Dec 07 - 06:46 AM
GUEST,Jon 13 Dec 07 - 06:56 AM
GUEST,leeneia 13 Dec 07 - 11:27 AM
GUEST,Jon 13 Dec 07 - 12:59 PM
GUEST,Jon 13 Dec 07 - 01:50 PM
Newport Boy 13 Dec 07 - 04:45 PM
Jack Campin 13 Dec 07 - 06:52 PM
GUEST,Jon 13 Dec 07 - 07:08 PM
GUEST,Jon 13 Dec 07 - 07:18 PM
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Subject: Noteworthy evaluation
From: Mo the caller
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 07:03 AM

I'm trying out Noteworthy and it's driving me mad the way the staff goes on, and on and on.
There must be a way to get the lines one under the other so that you can read what you've put without scrolling sideways all the time. I don't want lots of staves for different parts. The key I would usually use is used to enter notes.
Help!


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: maeve
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 07:23 AM

I've no clue, Mo the caller, but this will bump up your post so someone who knows may see it and respond.

maeve


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: Newport Boy
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 07:29 AM

I don't know Noteworthy, but MusicEase does the same. The only answer I've found is to 'cast off and justify' every so often, ie format the piece.

Phil


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 07:30 AM

No, there isn't a way to alter the editing page layout. You can use print preview to see what it will print out like, though.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: Carol
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 07:35 AM

Yes I 'treated' myself to Noteworthy a while ago but found it very fiddley to use - I think I had to pay nearly as much to the Customs people as I paid for the program. Just treated myself to a roll up keyboard for £20 to use instead, as I only really use it when I've got the dots and want to hear the tune for a song that I want to learn.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: vectis
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 08:30 AM

I have used Noteworthy for years and haven't yet found a way to break the staff so that several lines can be displayed. I use the print preview command to do that.
To do what you want you need sibellius. You used to be able to download an older version on line from their site.
I like Noteworthy and use it far more often than sibellius.
Maybe we should all write to them and ask for this facility to be added to the program?


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: Mo the caller
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 08:43 AM

Right, while I was waiting for your answer I figured out the print preview.
I've typed my tune in, and listened to it so I think the timing is OK.
Now I'm trying to put lyrics underneath. But every letter I type brings up a command.


Also, what are the costs, snags and benefits of the various music writing packages. I've never used one before, won't use it much and am not a computer whizz (obvious from my qs)


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: GUEST,DMcG
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 08:59 AM

At this juncture, I always recommend "Harmony Assistant" from Myriad Software (not to be confused with pavane's Harmony software).

For $70, it does much more than Noteworthy, including 'page mode' editing as described in the original post.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: Newport Boy
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 09:05 AM

I looked at a few early this year, and it depends what you want to do with it. I settled on two.

If your main interest is in tunes - single melody line - then MusicEase (www.musicease.com) is quick to learn, easy to enter notes, reads ABC and plays music OK. It produces quite good scores, although you have very limited control over the format. I have used it to print 4-part harmony (hymn type), but it was quite hard work.

Harmony Assistant is all-singing, all-dancing, but is much more complex and therefore takes longer to learn. Note entry is a little more cumbersome, but I've come to terms with it. It writes ABC as well as reading it, although the files for more complex music are not always read by other packages. It's biggest strength is in printing scores - near professional quality.

Lyric entry is fine in both. I use MusicEase for most folk-type songs, and Harmony Assistant when I want to produce scores for a choir. Each of them is about £50, €70, $90.

Phil


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 09:32 AM

The easiest of all was the antique SongWright. MusicEase is pretty good, and has more features.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: Mo the caller
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 09:43 AM

How do I type words under the Noteworthy score, and preferably make them match the notes?


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: MMario
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 09:46 AM

MO:

ctrl-L to bring up the lyric section, select the number of verses, tab to the correct part and enter lyrics.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: Mo the caller
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 09:56 AM

Down all that, when I start with "I" it brings up a command box Instrumentation.
What am I doing wrong?


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: MMario
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 10:00 AM

sounds like you've got a sticky key..


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: Mo the caller
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 10:15 AM

Any letter I prees either gives nothing or a box (tempo, score review, etc. etc.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 10:58 AM

abc2mtex is free.

The output is infinitely adjustable and beats anything I've seen commercially. I've used it for 11 years.

Paws


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: Mo the caller
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 11:13 AM

Does that
mean you have to know abc?


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 12:09 PM

Type Control-L. Up pops a bunch of stuff.

There is a place that you must tell it you want 1 lyric line (or 2 or 3 or whatever. Do this first, it is set to "0" otherwise.

Then go to the tab for Lyric Line 1 and start typing. (or cut & paste in from any other program if you already have the lyrics in a word processor)

If the print is too tiny go to the Page Setup stuff and reset the font for 'staff lyric' to something big.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 12:13 PM

I really like Noteworthy. I've mastered all the quirks in it I needed to. It's kind of like an instrument. I can now sit down and key in a song in 10 minutes and be able to play it back endlessly, transpose it way up or down, use a different sound, send it to other people who can hear it using a free reader. They have free upgrades instead of hounding me to spend more money. It's a good tool if you get past the weird little quirks.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 12:41 PM

Mo, you ahould have a toolbar somewhere there's a capital L for Lyrics. Click it. Then open up Configuration to tell it how many verses you need. To enter the first verse, click Lyric 1 and start typing. (or copy known lyrics from somewhere else). PUt hyphens between syllables. To get a note with nothing under it, put in an underline with a space in front and before. (This is needed when different verses have slurs in different places. You'll see.)

I'm sure all music programs have their quirks, and you could spend so much time looking for the perfect one that you would never make any music. I believe Noteworthy is a good one for the money.

If your songs go on and on, they must be awfully long songs. However, to see more measures, use the little magnifying glass to make the display smaller. I do that sometimes.

The reason you have to go to the L (or type Cntl+L) for lyrics is that Noteworthy is saving the plain keystrokes for big functions.

i = change instruments
x = enter text, which is commentary you wish to make on the music
t = tempo
g = time signature
- = reduce hightlighted notes by half
+ = double the highlighted notes
. = dot (or undot) the next note. or the highlighted notes
k = put in a key signature. k g puts the song in G. very nice.

There are probably others. This is a very handy system.

I hope this helps. I'd like to stick around to help more, but we are in the midst of an ice storm. I can hear sounds like riflt shots are branches snap. Then a rushing sound as they crash towards the ground, perhaps taking wires with them. So if you respond, MO, and I don't get back to you, that's why.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: Mo the caller
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 02:32 PM

Ahha, I see what you mean by tab now. I was using tab on the keyboard.
Thanks everyone.
I've posted off the typed notes, hand written words version, I'll do a better one now.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 02:51 PM

There are any number of reasonably flexible, competent, and user-friendly notation programs - that will play back what you put in the score, print the score, and save a midi of it.

There are also a number of reasonably simple midi programs that will "save a score."

If the midi is your main concern, you need a midi program. If you mostly want scores you want a notation program. Either kind of program should do the playback.

LiK likes her "Print Music," while I've been using "Music Time Deluxe" simply because it's one of the few programs around that can import some "legacy" scores I made with another program that got swallowed up by the big guys. Both of those are from Coda, and neither is particularly a "recommendation;" but neither is really expensive and they work for us. (Coda Finale "competes" with Sibelius, but is also much more horsepower than you need for what you seem to want to do.)

You do NOT need Sibelius for much of anything unless you are:

1. A student (or music educator) who can get it really cheap.
2. You have more money than you can possible spend and enjoy paying off extortionists as a hobby.

It's a very good and very powerful program, but most people simply don't need all the "features." It also has a comparatively steep learning curve to figure out what you can turn off to do the simple stuff - and how to do it. Any decent program will require you to learn a little about how to run it, but Sibellius just has far too many "features" for most us simple-minded users.

Many music programs allow you to download a "trial version," and trying a few is a good idea.

If you really think you want Sibelius, you can get a free CD trial version at many music stores - especially those selling band/orchestra stuff. (An example of how unfriendly they are is that the trial versions of Sibelius disable the Help files, so it's difficult to tell whether it can do what you want, since you can't look up how the program wants you to do it. Ask about the work-around if you need it.)

John


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 03:08 PM

Does that
mean you have to know abc?


And I think be getting into some serious type setting software.

I also suspect abc2mtex might not handle lyrics aligned under words (w:).

I think abcm2ps would be a better way for you to print a nice score from abc. The abcplus project is probably the best place to point you to read about that and some other alternatives for printing.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 03:10 PM

John, Noteworthy is a MIDI program and a notation program.

I have a friend with a master's in music [horn]. She uses Finale. To her, music is so important that it was worth the big bucks. I dont think that her program, at $300 bucks, does much more than mine at $40.

Apparently MO has already purchased Noteworthy, so why shouldn't he just learn it and start having fun with music? [shades of Micky Mouse Club]

Everybody pause for a moment and picture Annette Funicello [God bless her] doing the hula to the "Fun with Music" theme. If you live in the frozen North, see if it doesn't warm you up.

Mo, are you using Help and reading the directions? I admit they seem to have been written by a corporate attorney, not a computer user. But they do help. Some.

To zip to a certain measure, use Cntl G. For example, to get to a B part of a dance tune, go Cntl G 9. This pops you onto the ninth measure of the piece. B parts usually start around there.

On my computer (Windows XP) I don't have to use the irritating Cntl+ combination. I just hop over the keyboard - cntl + 9, - and it knows what I want. If yours doesnt, turn on Sticky Keys.

Ice is still coming down. My computer turned itself off a few minutes ago, but fortunately it seems all right.

I am working on a cheeful German song for Advent, "Fling Wide the Door." I've asked myself, "Did God really want this thing to change key in the middle, or was the composer just trying to impress other musicians?" I decided that it would be okay with God to remove the key change using Noteworthy and make the song easier for our little congregation to learn. Fun with music, once again.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 03:23 PM

leenia, Notewothy is a notation program that uses Midi. Many do for at least for playback.

What you find with software is that it specialises in one side but handles the other to some degree or other.

For the other side, take a look at sequencer software


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 03:29 PM

I often see catters engaging in long discussions about which one is the best of anything. What's the best guitar, whistle, tuner, or program?

Well, these questions have no easy answer. Different people have different needs, and different products have their quirks. Also, somehow the advice proffered usually seems to recommend the most prestigious and expensive of everything.

For example, have you ever seen the ratings of food processors in Consumer Reports? One shreds carrots well but doesn't slice radishes evenly. Another is great on radishes but is not so hot on pureeing split peas. Another processes everything uniformly but is hard to clean. etc etc When all is said and done, you might as well buy the one that's on sale, because none is perfect.

Of course, there may be one that didn't slice anything right and finally electrocuted the engineer, but let's face it, that's pretty rare. Products today come with implied warranty, which means that they do what they're supposed to do. If they don't, the maker goes under.

People can spend so much time trying buy the perfect instrument or the perfect program that they don't have time left to make music. Don't fall into that trap.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: Tootler
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 04:40 PM

Mo,

I have been using Noteworthy for over 10 years now. What appealed to me was that I was able to produce a usable musical score from scratch in about half-an-hour first time I used it.

I agree the "infinitely long stave" seems strange at first but you get used to it. On the other hand, if you ever produce music in multiple parts, it comes somewhat into its own.

For a very modest outlay, it is remarkably powerful, though for some things you do have to use workarounds. I know people who have entered full symphonies using Noteworthy and tweaked the midi features to make an acceptable playback. If you want to get an idea of what is possible, check the noteworthy scriptorium http://www.vpmag.com/nwc/ where there are large numbers of users files of music of all musical styles You could also look at Tina Billet's website; http://www.keyboard-creations.co.uk/index.html (She has notated all nine Beethoven Symphonies in Noteworthy for starters).

There is an excellent user community (or used to be, I have not checked for a while) so join the online forum and the newsgroup. Any queries you have about features, problems etc. are usually answered in a courteous manner. You can find information about both of these on the noteworthy website.

Good luck.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 10:13 AM

leenia -

As already commented, most programs do both midi and notation.

Some programs are set up to do the best possible notation, and produce midi as an added feature.

Some programs are set up to make midi editing (sequencing) easy, and produce notation as an added feature.

My limited attempts to use Noteworthy indicate that it isn't really much of either, compared to other available programs. If you work hard enough at it, you can do useful things; but there are many "more user friendly" programs available. It's used at mudcat because it was available "back when;" and since it is of some importance to have one program for all the music in the data bank it continues to be used quite a bit.

I dont think that her program, at $300 bucks, does much more than mine at $40.

That $300 for Finale is a student/educator price, and I can't buy Finale for less than about $800 (the last time I looked a year or so ago) and Sibelius, if you don't qualify for a discount, is very close to $1,000. If either program "doesn't do much more than" a $40 program, you're just not using it right; but if you don't need more than what your $40 program does, it's rather stupid to learn - and insist on using - a much more complex program.

John


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: MMario
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 10:18 AM

if you don't need more than what your $40 program does, it's rather stupid to learn - and insist on using - a much more complex program.

or pay 20 to 30 times the price to acquire...


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 10:53 AM

It's been a while since I've used any Windows music software but I don't remember getting on too well with Noteworthy. I seem to remember thinking Melody Assistant preferable.

For my own needs at the time though which were trying to have fun with midi once in a while and occasionally providing a missing MIDI for Mudcat, I found an early (2.0?) version of Cakewalk I'd got from somewhere, a much better fit.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 11:00 AM

Why not write in ABC (say, using ABCMus to hear what you're doing) and use Bryan Creer's ABC to Noteworthy converter?

(I'm guessing - I use Macs, so Noteworthy isn't an option).


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 11:33 AM

Don't use ABC, it's fine for transmitting things via ASCII only channels life forums, but utterly unreadable, or rather, if you're going to learn to read music, learn the dots as it's much more useful. At least with Noteworthy you can play it back to make sure you've got it right. You might also consider Mozart though it's more expensive than Noteworthy, even after paying import duty and VAT.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: Grab
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 11:34 AM

I get on just fine with Harmony Assistant too.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 12:11 PM

"It's used at mudcat because it was available "back when;" and since it is of some importance to have one program for all the music in the data bank it continues to be used quite a bit." Not true. while some Mudcatters use it, the music fiiles in DigiTrad are kept in SongWright and Midi formats (both, not either.)


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 12:33 PM

dick g -

The "usefullness" of Noteworthy at mudcat comes from the limited availability of SongWright, and the willingness of some of those who can "translate" to it to work with Noteworthy as input. (Or at least that's the story we were getting before we ran out of stuff to try to submit.)

Even though it's not the "final" format, it's been "requested" by some of our volunteers - who would be horribly bent out of shape if we each picked a different program from which to send in files.

(except maybe for "midi files from scores" which are reasonably standardized and mostly interchangeable.)

John


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 12:44 PM

I've used Noteworthy for over ten years, and I'm still getting free upgrades on my original $40 investment. I'm on version 1.75c. There is a Beta version 2, but I haven't tried it.

I use Noteworthy mostly for posting tunes at Mudcat, and I've learned to enter notation very quickly with it. With the new FTP function in Internet Explorer 7, I can get a simple melody posted in well under ten minutes.

I've tried ABC and Finale and Pavane's Harmony programs, but never found the time to really figure out how they worked. There are lots of things I'd like Noteworthy to do better, but its learning curve about matched my patience level, so I've stuck with it.

For years, I've been meaning to learn how to use the free Finale Notepad software. I know people who really love it and say it has all the Finale features they need without the cost of Finale - but I've never got around to learning it.

-Joe, with too many things he's going to get around to doing-


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 12:46 PM

PMB is completely wrong about ABC. With a program like BarFly of ABCMus it's easy to hear it, and it can easily be made readable in ASCII source form with a bit of effort (look at almost any of the stuff on my homepage).

Mozart and Noteworthy don't work on anything but Windows, and are both one-person efforts, so they're useless as a long-term format.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: Tootler
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 07:16 PM

Why not write in ABC

Simple.

I first learnt the basics of staff notation at the age of 11 so have been using it for over 50 years. I can see how a music looks and can get a sense of what it will be like. Staff notation gives a "picture" of the music, whereas when I see ABC it simply looks a jumble of letters to me.

I agree, ABC has its uses, certainly for transmitting tunes in a text only environment like this forum, but the first thing I do with an ABC of a tune is convert it to staff notation.

Mozart and Noteworthy don't work on anything but Windows, and are both one-person efforts, so they're useless as a long-term format.

True on the first count, and true to some extent on the second. The second point could be said of the majority of notation programs. However most notation software will read and export to MIDI which is a standard.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: Tootler
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 07:29 PM

Most of the recommendations of programs here, including my own, are based on personal prejudice preference. Different people find different programs easy to use. Most of the software mentioned in this thread will do what most people seem to want. It's really a matter of which you personally find easiest to use.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 08:04 PM

What you want depends on what you intend to happen to your work. The advantage of an open public standard (of which ABC is one) is that the effort you put into your transcription need not be redone. Do it directly on paper or in a proprietary format, and the only way to re-use your work in the future (when too many generations of photocopying have elapsed, the paper is crumbling, or the developer of your package has been archived on the Great 8-Inch Floppy in the Sky) is to notate it all over again.

I generally use staff notation to play from. I can get what I want much faster by typing ABC into BarFly than by writing on music paper. And since my eyesight is poor and getting worse, it's an enormous advantage that BarFly lets me choose arbitrary print size and format, so I can make pages I can easily read. I would need to work with india ink and graphic dip pens to get a comparably useful result directly on paper. I am pretty good in that medium, but have you tried correcting that?

MIDI is a pain in the bum if you want to get staff notation out of it.

The absolute pits is the MIDI-generated ABC you sometimes see posted here with the self-righteous footnote "This program is worth the effort of learning it". The metre and note durations are whatever come out from the fingers with no attempt at making any two notes or bars the same length. Some ABC players can reproduce the intended sound but no software can create a usable score from it.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: Mo the caller
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 05:50 AM

Yes I agree with Tootler, dots is what I know.
I've had an internet connected computer for over 2 years now, and only just got round to getting a free trial version (30 days) for Noteworthy. So I doubt if I'll use it much, just now and then.
I don't even know what MIDI is. Does it play the dots?


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 06:46 AM

However most notation software will read and export to MIDI which is a standard.

But to cover old ground yet again, not a notation standard. It can work for simple melodies but you have no means of knowing how the score you wrote in Noteworthy will look to other programs importing a midi produced by it.

abc on the other hand is a notation standard as is musicxml which is probably the preferred format when exchanging more complicated scores.

Some of what has been said in this thread does come down to personal preferences and abilities, eg. I find it easier to drag a note on a score and hear the note change as it moves, another prefer to type abc in text and can read/"hear" as they go along.

That's fine if you are working alone - choose the program and format that suits you best but if you need to share music with others there are other considerations. Your best "human playing" MIDI for example is likely to be useless to anyone wanting to produce a score.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 06:56 AM

Just to try an explain again... I'll try this...

Notation formats attempt to describe what is written on a musical score.

MIDI attempts to describe what is actually played by instruments in real time.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 11:27 AM

I don't think that's correct. I have a MIDI keyboard. If I select note timings, it will play the pitches I select on the keyboard in the timing I select. This produces accurate notation. It also produces a useful version of the music which can be edited - change key, change timing, add parts, etc.

Other people may take a MIDI keyboard and play pieces directly into the computer. This process produces MIDI's which are only good for listening. John in Kansas referred to them as "stuttering," and that's a good term for their inaccurate timing.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 12:59 PM

Leeneia,

You can edit or create a MIDI with any timing you want but those timings are played back in real time.

MIDI has no concept of half notes, quarter notes, minims, crotchets, or many things notational it doesn't need them. It uses a series of events, eg. what key is pressed (pressed could be how you entered it in your notation program) and when these events are to occur in the piece.

Sometimes a program is able to convert these events into notes on a musical score, other times it isn't. That a program fails need not be a poor reflection on the program nor an indication that the MIDI is incorrect in any way.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 01:50 PM

I've just put a midi through a linux program called midicsv which outputs a midi as a csv file. The midi is 4 crotchets (middle C), D, E, F. Perhaps this output will help indicate what a (binary) MIDI file holds.

0, 0, Header, 1, 2, 480
1, 0, Start_track
1, 0, Copyright_t, "Unknown"
1, 0, Cue_point_t, "Created by Rosegarden"
1, 0, Cue_point_t, "http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/"
1, 0, Tempo, 500000
1, 0, End_track
2, 0, Start_track
2, 0, Title_t, ""
2, 0, Program_c, 0, 0
2, 0, Control_c, 0, 7, 100
2, 0, Control_c, 0, 10, 64
2, 0, Note_on_c, 0, 60, 100
2, 480, Note_off_c, 0, 60, 127
2, 480, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 100
2, 960, Note_off_c, 0, 62, 127
2, 960, Note_on_c, 0, 64, 100
2, 1440, Note_off_c, 0, 64, 127
2, 1440, Note_on_c, 0, 65, 100
2, 1920, Note_off_c, 0, 65, 127
2, 1920, End_track
0, 0, End_of_file

In particular, see there are Note On and Note Off events and there is increasing time (0, 480, 960, 1920). At "time=480" the previous note (60/middle C) is turned off and at "time=480" the next note (D) is turned on.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: Newport Boy
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 04:45 PM

Regarding abc, Jon said:

"abc on the other hand is a notation standard as is musicxml which is probably the preferred format when exchanging more complicated scores."

Just a comment re abc - and this is not a criticism - basic abc is a standard, but when you get to multiple voices and lyrics there is no single standard. This applies particularly to abc files written by many of the programs discussed - they have their own extensions to the basic language and the files are frequently not readable by other programs.

I haven't used musicxml - it sounds as though I should take a look.

Phil


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 06:52 PM

It's usually pretty obvious what you have to do to a multi-voice ABC piece to port it from one program to another. Much less work than trying to turn a MIDI into something usefully printable, and far less work than starting from scratch.

BarFly converts MusicXML into ABC. Going the other way has been "someday not too far off" for a while - not a feature I'm in a hurry for, anyway.

It's a pity none of the heavyweight music typesetting systems can translate ABC. There was a message from the Sibelius developers on the ABC mailing list sometime in the late 1990s saying they thought they could do it in a weekend. Even by Hunter S. Thompson standards that's been an impressively long one.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 07:08 PM

Agreed Phil...

btw, I've just seen that the midicsv prog and it's partner csvmidi are availible as Win32 exes as well as source at http://www.fourmilab.ch/webtools/midicsv/#Download

Some might find it interesting editing a MIDI as a csv and writing the csv back to a MIDI. I'd guess it's as close to editing a human readable form of the MIDI file (rather than editing what a computer program may be able to do with it) as you are likely to get.


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Subject: RE: Noteworthy evaluation
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 07:18 PM

It's a pity none of the heavyweight music typesetting systems can translate ABC

I can't imagine any being anxious to do so with the standard/ draft standard situation the way it is.


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