BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 03:13 PM

Thanks for the welcome & the hooray. I don't think I've ever been hoorayed before.

(note to certain contributors: "being hoorayd" is not an arcane, virus-riddled homosexual practice...)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 03:54 PM

Sedley, if we are to leave this thread wiser and better informed, are sentenses like the one above(in brackets), really necessary?

If you want an adult discussion on this subject, surely you can dispense with that sort of attitude. Leave that to the politically motivated.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 04:07 PM

Sanity.....Very interesting contentions,I can certainly see the sense in what you've written.

My problem is,how do I get myself into the position of accepting as fact that babies can be born homosexual?
I do understand that a mothers fears, phobias,revulsions etc may be transfered to the baby in the womb, but it is surely much more likely that mothers feelings are transfered psychologically after birth and during the first few years of life ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 04:25 PM

Another example of how not to hold a discussion....by MP

This is just my opinion when all said and done. It does not matter that I have to be right. It does not affect me. But being open minded about homosexuality with never do me any harm either (except from the insults I may have to suffer for daring to allow gay folk breath!)

For daring to allow gay folk breath!.........I have read nothing here about anyone wanting to deprive homosexuals of "breath"(code for life)

The bracketed part of MP's last sentence is slipped in to remind everyone that those who oppose her views are homo haters and would like to see homosexuals dead.

The tactics of deceit

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 04:43 PM

I doubt anyone could argue over the cornucopia of evidence that shows estrogen has on foetuses. For sure male sperm rates later in life and the actual testicular disorders can be affected by estrogens and xenoestrogens during fetal and neonatal development. There is also much research been done on the effects of estrogen on brain development in utero and on the gender sensitive areas of the brain. There is no doubt that hormonal 'soaking' or 'drops' can affect foetal 'hard-wiring' of both genders and much more research will come to light as to the mechanisms as more work is done. Some things that are reasonably constant and statistically evidenced are index/ring finger ratios in gay and straight populations. This is obviously set in utero as is handedness (which many will know, despite barbaric ways to stop people using their lefts hands in the past, failed)

The chances that sexuality is fixed in the foetus, due to hormonal affects during cerebral development, are pretty high BUT quite how it happens and when is open to much more research and discussion. The topic is not without some controversy even within science. As with gender too, which may or may not be linked to the genitals a child is born with, you cannot change the hard wiring.

Occasionally people's hard-wiring gets distrupted, say after a stroke, and the nerves find new pathways if the survivor is lucky. Some cause personalty changes but seldom is sexuality reported to be disrupted. That said, sexuality is often a neglected topic for the stroke survivor.

In short. Nature will have its way!

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 04:56 PM

Akenaton wrote "For daring to allow gay folk breath!.........I have read nothing here about anyone wanting to deprive homosexuals of "breath"(code for life)

May I remind you of the topic of this thread? Hanging by nature would deprive those hung of their breath!

It's not just thread I have stood up for gay rights either so please don't arrogantly, and wrongly, presume "The bracketed part of MP's last sentence is slipped in to remind everyone that those who oppose her views are homo haters and would like to see homosexuals dead.

The tactics of deceit". I have been called for holding the views I have many times. It will happen in the future too. Please do not lecture me about deceipt or how I choose to have discussion with people. When you have the art right yourself then you may lecture me. I refuse to get into name calling. I have been pleasant to you and others on this forum who have disagreed. I have presented my side and that is all. Bullying me now will not change my mind nor endear your arguments more.

You have a wonderful time doing what you do but I think if you check you will see I have not changed my stance once throughout this thread and nor have I changed my tack or opinions.

Whether I am right only time will tell as regards the research and nature but I am far happier being me with my views than it seems you are being you with yours. I agreed to disagree with you way back, on pleasant terms. Bully away and try and change my words. Enjoy!

:-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 05:22 PM

It isn't bullying .. its ... god - what is it ...

... bloody minded, myopic, fearful, pompous, farcical, absurd, ...


... I can't wait tto read Ake and GfS's research paper on the causes of homosexuality.

I bet there's a big section on bumming.

And another big section on priests and choirboys.

There will be nothing about africa, nor on the sexual health issues of adolescent girls and young women.

There will be a big prologue explaining why all inconvenient evidence has been ignored.

And there will be a post script in which the two authors massage each others egos.

Assertions in Chapter 2 will be backed up by references to the same assetions made in chapter 1.

The asertions in chapter 1 will come with recommended further reading ... (chapter 2) ...

When the whole thing is dismantled piece by piece by a legion of critics, the authors will ignore it and form their own club.

They will stick out their tongues and defiantly announce "well we didn't want to play with you anyway" before mincing off to conduct some more 'research'.

The world will look forward to theiir conclusions wwith eager anticipation.

No one will findd it remotely funny ....


... no really ... they won't ... especially when Ake starts reasserting that paedophiles are just gays who don't have access to grown ups.

... and they'll start to feel sick when he starts describing in lurid detail the scenario that 'disgusts' him the most.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 05:41 PM

MP...I dont think anyone in Uganda is about to insult you...do you?

The insults you refer to, you obviously expect to come from those who are engaged in discussion with you and who do not share your opinions.

I do not believe in Capital Punishment, for homo or hetero criminals, no matter what they have done, but the US still retains the "death penalty" in many states I believe.

Please dont think that you are being bullied, I was simply pointing out how easy it is to "load" a seemingly innocuous post.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 05:46 PM

Ake, I deeply and humbly prostrate myself in apology. How remiss of me, one of those inflicted by the 'scourge' (to use your own term), to introduce some humour here. Obviously I just don't feel bad enough about myself.

Oh, and in my earlier, lengthier post I raised two perfectly serious and relatively unexplored points which you have ignored in favour of your rather limp swipe at my decision to resort briefly to levity.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 06:01 PM

Well....Do you want a serious discussion, or a verbal punch up?

I dont see much levity in "virus riddled homosexual practice"

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 06:05 PM

Still waiting for your thoughts on my earlier post. Don't derail yourself via an evaive detour into humourlessness, it doesn't suit you.

And there is levity in everything, although never *just* levity.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 06:10 PM

Thats because "virus riddled homosexual practice" describes your view of homosexuals, and as you have said, this is something that you abhor.

The rest of us (including Smedley, who by the way is pretty well informed on the subject of homosexual practice) see this phrase for what it is - utterly preposterous.

And the only way you can cope is to suggest verbal fisticuffs.

As if to remind us that there ain't no gayness in you ... no sirree ... you're the rootinest tootinest cowboy in the wild west!!

You're so manly!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 06:17 PM

Did you hear a buzzing noise just then Smedley?   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 06:25 PM

Ah, a smile from Ake to refute my humourlessness jibe.

And if Lox is right, just be careful I don't smile back. The cowboy was always my favourite one in the Village People.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 07:00 PM

I'm sorry about ignoring your points...I got side tracked whackin' the flies.

I should think that changing sexual orientation must be very difficult especially after a number of years, and I dont really think it would always be in the interests of people to change orientation, one way or the other.

I should think the psychiatric problems would be multiplied for homos or heteros

My main reason for becoming involved in these threads, is to try to illustrate how minorities can be manipulated by political ideologues, in this case "liberals"
The Homosexual marriage issue is a very good example of a minority being dragged kicking and screaming to claim "rights" which hardly any of them want. Our resident "heterosexual homosexual activist" Mr Peekstock being a typical example of the genre.

I'm amazed that you can joke about a disease which is showing a steady increase in the figures and continuing to decimate your community.....Are you really happy to allow these figures to climb, rather than address the reasons why they are so bad in comparison to heteros. Your remark about "virus ridden homosexual practice" may have been a joke, but it betrays a lamentable lack of understanding about the real extent of the problem and a lack of will in addressing it.

Honestly, does what I have written strike you as bigotry or hatred?
If it does, I'm sorry, I dont mean it as such.

Perhaps you would like to explain your position, or even comment on my linked figures on homosexual marriage take up rates...and why homosexual rights should be different to other sexual minorities.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 07:37 PM

"I should think the psychiatric problems would be multiplied for homos or heteros"

Did I say pompous? I forgot to add delusional!

Dr Ake, is this area of research covered in your joint paper?



"My main reason for becoming involved in these threads, is to try to illustrate how minorities can be manipulated by political ideologues, in this case "liberals"".

Or in other words, to bang on about your oft repeated, monotonous, one dimensional view that your freedom of speech is somehow restricted by a conspiracy of "liberal Fascists".


I remember when I first encountered this.

It was on the gollywog thread when you referred to Azizi for no other reason than it was a thread about racism and she is black.


Then on the G20 Demo thread you introduced the hot potato of immigration into a thread which otherwise contained no mention of imigrants, and you started blaming the credit crunch on them.


On another thread you claimed to know all about how Moslems think they're better than us ... because your mate from Goa said so ...

But most relevantly, on a thread about the church and child abuse, you stated that this happened because of Gay men joining the priesthood rather than come out of the closet, and then, being stuck for other gay men to have sex with, abusing children to get their kicks.

This developed on a couple of different threads, and you have basically held the view throughout that Gay men will naturally predate on children if they can't get another man.


In this thread you would have carried on with the same view if it were not for the diligence and patience of a few of us who gave you so much rope for such a long time that you tied yourself in knots with it.


Now you are trying to pass yourself off as friend, health advisor and psychiatric researcher working to improve the lot of Gay men and women world wide.


But your true colours are simply too well documented on this website.


You loathe what gay people do and you think they are all closet paedophiles.

And your imagination has furnished you with vivid enough depictions of how this works that you are "disgusted" on a fairly consistent basis.


Myopic doesn't cover it ... you have a blind spot the size of canada that obscures your vision and allows you to pretend you are being honest and objective by shutting out all evidence to the contrary and by shutting out anyone who makes your position look shaky ... which is just about anyone who disagrees with you ... or indeed engages with your ideas intelligently for more than 5 minutes.


You remind me so much of Nick Griffin and the way he behaved on question time, that it wouldn't surprise me if it turned out that you were him.


Good luck fella.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 07:48 PM

Fuck it.....Knew I had missed one!!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 07:56 PM

Ake:    "The Homosexual marriage issue is a very good example of a minority being dragged kicking and screaming to claim 'rights' which hardly any of them want."

Really? Some 18,000 homosexual couples in California got married during the brief time that the law was in effect before out-of-state religious groups squelched the same-sex marriage law with Proposition 8.

Anyone who is really interested in reducing homosexual promiscuity and transmission of HIV/AIDs ought to be in favor of doing whatever is possible to encourage stable, monogamous relationships.

No, "liberals" are not "dragging" same-sex oriented people "kicking and screaming" into claiming their civil rights. The move toward same-sex marriage and equal legal rights has been initiated by gays and lesbians themselves. That is not just an opinion, it is historical fact.

I don't know about the other states where same-sex marriage laws have been passed, but in Washington State where I live, although the state does not yet recognize same-sex marriage (yet), the recently passed domestic partnership law has produced a definite increase in the number of same-sex couples who have applied for such status. And there has been an increase in the number of marriage ceremonies requested of churches that perform such ceremonies since the law went into effect. Recognition by law as having the same legal rights as a marriage, plus sanctification by a church, whether the state recognizes the relationship as "marriage" or not. And that's since November, when Initiative 71 (sponsored by the same out-of-state religious groups who sponsored Prop. 8) was defeated by the voters and the recently passed domestic partnership law went into effect.

Sorry, Ake. You are picking your "facts" out of your own wishful thinking.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 07:59 PM

What a vivid imagination ...


... I dread to think what happens when the flies are down ...

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 08:06 PM

Oh I forgot - and you went on about Tinkers being drug pushers and thieves in another thread.


Each time a minority is brought up Ake, it is you who brings them up.


You don't bring them up in threads about minorieties, you bring them up as scapegoats in threads on other subjects.


When new threads are initiated todiscuss the issues which you raise (and which you claim are suppressed) your voice is notably absent.


So it is in fact you who seizes on minority issues for your own political purposes.


And this is so well evidenced on the mudcat that I needn't bother with any links.

Just check out Akes posting history.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:06 AM

Mexico allows "the free uniting of two people" and become one more place in the world where human rights has overcome repression of equal rights.

I thinks it's a great step forward. Even the UK does not allow such marriages but does have the civil partnership legislation in place to try and cover it.

It appears that liberals may be all over the world! I can hear all the kicks and screams in Mexico as I go out to work.... ;-)

I wonder which country will be next?

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 12:55 PM

What a screed of misrepresentation from the three posters above.
They are not worth the bother of once again refuting their shite.

Fortunately all my posts are available in context in this thread and in all the others to which I have posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 01:07 PM

"What a screed of misrepresentation from the three posters above.
They are not worth the bother of once again refuting their shite."

Which is to say, you don't have an answer.

The data I gave in my last post is dead-on accurate, and it blows your contentions (speaking of "shite") right out of the water. Give it up, Ake. History is passing you by.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 07:38 PM

Ahh, It seems that the only posters, are the homosexuals, who were not 'born' that way, but opted for being homosexuals, after the fact....which is indicative of the hostility, in replying to those, who are not homosexual...except for Don..which in deed is very interesting, because, and without ANY contentious intent, I have a question to ask him.

You posted that the persons you knew who were ex-homosexuals did so, in the course of being 'saved'. So my question is somewhat two part, and being as you say you are Bible literate, and attend a Christian church, the question is, according to what I believe was the tone of your post, regarding those two, do you think their being 'saved' was sincere, or valid?....and if not, why?....and if so, then what do you think happened, to cause them to also renounce homosexuality? Same question to Joe Offer.
Do you think the power of whatever happened to them was greater, than that of being homosexual??

Only questions.....not trick questions, nor baiting, okay?
Regards,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 07:49 PM

"Do you think the power of whatever happened to them was greater, than that of being homosexual??"


Instead of asking them why don't you just look at history and the many famous homosexuals who covered it up and married women and even had kids by them.

The power of cutural taboo and denial are two things not to underestimate.


It could be comparable to chinese teachers and academics "confessing" during the cultural revolution.


Sometimes people will say anything when the pressure to conform becomes too great.


Its a crucial issue for a young gay man ... come out and face the music, or stay in and live the easy life ... I don't know what I'd do.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 10:10 PM

Lox:"Instead of asking them why don't you just look at history and the many famous homosexuals who covered it up and married women and even had kids by them."

Not even remotely interested on who was, or why they felt they had to cover it. That is only feeding a rationalization. We're going for ANSWERS!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 10:19 PM

GfS, these two people are not friends of mine, they were merely acquaintances for a brief time. I met them when our church was discussing the issue of adopting the Affirmation of Welcome (and scroll down) some years back.

The main sticking point for a few people in the congregation was whether or not to include all of the inclusivity clause in the statement: ". . . . regardless of our race, age, gender, marital status, physical and mental abilities, sexual/affectional orientation, national origin, or economic status." A couple of people objected to the "sexual/affectional orientation" part, quoting a few Bible verses. So before we put the matter to a vote of the entire congregation, we had a couple of general meetings of the congregation to discuss the matter in depth.

Several people who were not members of the congregation and whom we had never seen in church before came to the meeting, including the two people in question. Out of approximately 250 people, there were about a half-dozen—including these two people, who I emphasize were not members of the church—spoke out against including that phrase, citing a number of Bible verses, and talking about "perversion" and "it's against God's laws."

The church's two pastors, the synod bishop, and the church council (which I was on at the time) had discussed these verses at length in terms of the history of the times, what modern theology has to say about them, and whether or not those prohibitions were relevant today, especially in terms of outreach to as many people as possible. Among other things, the matter is not mentioned in the Ten Commandments, nor does Jesus say anything about it.

The two people in question spoke at length and quite passionately, talking about how they had led a "life of sin and degradation" until they had been "saved," at which point they renounced their homosexuality. I talked to them a fair amount, as did others, and learned that they had "accepted Christ" at one of the regular revival meetings held by a local Pentecostal church. Very fundamentalist. This church was focused totally on personal salvation and matters of stopping people from "sinning," whereas Central Lutheran is geared toward community service, taking what Jesus said in Matthew 25:35-40 as its primary mode of operating, feeling that, if this is rightly seen to, personal salvation will take care of itself. In short, Central "evangelizes," not by buttonholing you on street corners and demanding to know if you've "been Saved," but by showing by the example of what the church does.

GfS, for various reasons, which would be too long to go into here, but with sound theological roots, I think the phenomenon of "being Saved" is modern misunderstanding of the teachings of Jesus. "Being Saved" is less theological and more emotional. Hell-roaring preachers often scare the stuffings out of the naïve by their vivid descriptions of hell-fire and damnation. I don't think Jesus wanted his followers to love their neighbors and take care of them when they needed care in order for the followers to avoid going to Hell, he wanted them to do it because it was the right thing to do.

Many people have given up a lot of bad habits by "being Saved." Alcoholics have quit drinking, smokers have stopped smoking, philanderers have given up messing around, and criminals have gone straight because they've been convinced that they were going to burn in Hell for eternity if they didn't "accept Jesus as their Savior" and renounce their sinful ways.

And convince a naïve homosexual that he or she will go to Hell if they don't give up their "sinful perversion," and he or she will probably do it.

Fear. Is that a valid "cure?" I think not.

I am not a fundamentalist. I am, indeed, Bible literate, but I do not believe that the Bible is literal history. It is myth, metaphor, and allegory. This is not to say that what Bible says is untrue, it's that, say, the Book of Genesis is a creation myth, in much the same vein as the Native American myth about the world being creating variously by Raven or Mother Turtle. When Jesus spoke of the Good Samaritan, I don't think he was talking about a real incident. He was responding to a question, and it's as if He'd said, "Well, let me put it this way: suppose this traveler had fallen among thieves, and. . . ."

Let me put it this way:   in talking to these two people and asking questions about them from people who knew them, I learned that whether they were "cured" of their homosexuality or not had not been established. They have given up sex entirely. Does that mean that they had been cured of their homosexuality? I think that remains to be demonstrated.

In a meeting of the entire congregation (this took place in the early 1990s, by the way), we overwhelmingly voted to accept the Affirmation of Welcome in its entirety. Out of a congregation of about 250 people, I believe there were about a half-dozen dissenting votes. We did lose three of the older members who couldn't accept it. They went to other churches. But within a very few months, we added several dozen new members to the congregation. And no, they were not all gay. Some were, but most of them were young people, including young (heterosexual) married couples, many with young children, who wanted to got to a progressive, open-minded church. One that practiced what it preached.

By they way, I'm no longer on the church council. I served a full six years. My wife, Barbara, is currently on it, though.

Does that adequately answer your questions? If not, ask further.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 10:52 PM

Thank you, Don, for your answer. In your answer you mentioned a couple of things that were not clear, as to what I was asking. I was not aiming at whether or not it was consistent with Christian beliefs, or even in fact if it was a 'sin' or not. What is of interest, and to more than just the two of us is, whether or not it mattered if your two 'acquaintances' did this, out of something powerful that came to them?...or something they reasoned with?..or out of an emotion?...or was it something they 'renounced', as a form of 'repenting'?
You did. in fact said they gave up having sex, altogether, which I think is pretty heavy-duty. Somewhere, as you noted, they seemed to think it was wrong, so they quit. If they offered any more to their explanation, I think it would be of interest. Joe seems to have something similar, in his acquaintances, however, in his situation, Joe said the man was married, now to a woman...and I believe, Joe's person was Catholic, not Pentecostal.
I know what my acquaintances claim, however, I was going to leave them out of it. I tried to get them to come on, but they didn't even want to discuss the matter, especially to people who were still into it....which I thought was a bummer. Nonetheless, it's how they wanted it, so I won't press them...for now. That being said, they did share some of their thoughts, in retrospect, and we've had some rather in depth conversations.
One way or another, let's hope this will be an enlightening experience, for not only yourself and me, but for anyone who is 'tuning in'!
Again, thank you for your answer. Please, if you will, clarify, what I inquired about, about your answer.
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Elspeth
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 11:12 PM

Does anyone here _actually_ want to discuss the topic supposedly at hand?

If you want to know my opinion on it...I think these so called "Christians" are nothing of the sort (I wish they would find themselves a new name...you know "Church of Hate" or something like that...) and what they're doing to encourage the death penalty in Uganda is very wrong. It disgusts me.

Now, does anyone have something RELEVANT to say?

You know...instead of complaining about how eachother conducts a discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 11:44 PM

Elspeth, Your post is very telling. You are saying Christians are behind the death penalty in Uganda, while others are posting observations regarding people 'renouncing' homosexuality, and becoming Christian. When I read your post, it sounds as if you are getting uncomfortable about confronting what these people confronted, and their response to it. We are just probing.
Do you think calling Christians the "Church of Hate", when Don has posted the "Affirmation of Welcome", is consistent with being the open minded, liberal lesbian, who is looking for acceptance, by the mainstream??? After all, it was the homosexuals who are crying 'bigotry'....what is this, in light of that????
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 01:03 AM

With the caveat that I did not know these two really well, having encountered them in about four congregational meetings and talking to them face to face a few times, my assessment was that there was not all that much reasoning involved in their decisions. It was primarily emotional—the emotion of fear.

I believe that, from the start, from their first sexual awareness, they found themselves attracted to members of their own sex, and from what they had absorbed from the culture around them, they felt there was something wrong with them. They didn't respond to members of the opposite sex like most of their peers, schoolmates and such. They found themselves attracted to members of their own sex. And they undoubtedly picked up the general belief that what they were feeling made them "queers" or "fairies" or "dykes," as the case may be. Sexual awareness usually sets in in a big way during one's early teen years, and the pressure to blend in and be like everyone else is pretty strong. And to get the distinct impression that you are what others would call "a pervert—" Rough go for a kid. And then, added to that, the idea that if they followed their urges, they would be committing a "sin."

So. If someone who is a long practicing homosexual and is not of a particularly philosophical or critical mindset wanders, or gets dragged, into a revival meeting where they get a promise of "redemption" for their "life of sin and perversion," along with the threat of eternal Hell-fire if they don't, they might just "come forward" as the preacher bids them. Carrot and stick.

Interesting to note that, despite the numbers of people who come forward at revival meetings (such as Billy Graham's televised "crusades" some years ago), only a small percentage of these conversions actually stick for more than a few days. How well and how long they stick generally tends to be directly proportional to the element of fear of what would happen if they "backslide."

No, I think a true conversion comes with a lot of long, hard thought and soul-searching, not with a sudden burst of hope spurred on by fear coming from a charismatic, pulpit-pounding preacher.

So I believe that the only "powerful" thing that came to them was the aforesaid preacher and his emphasis on Hell-fire if they didn't repent, i.e. mortal fear. I don't think there was any real reasoning involved, strictly the fear and the promise of "redemption" if they "accepted Christ as their Savior."

"Renounced" as a form of "repenting?" Yes. And as I say, they didn't just renounce homosexuality, they renounced sexuality.

I did notice that these two people seemed to have an underlying emotional base of anger. They were both very confrontational, even when responding to fairly innocuous comments and questions.

Thanks, GfS, for an opportunity to put forth serious observations and opinions with the hope that they will be taken, in turn, seriously.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 05:43 AM

"Not even remotely interested on who was, or why they felt they had to cover it. That is only feeding a rationalization. We're going for ANSWERS!"

Before you can establish the significance of any higher power on their "change of heart" you have to rule out other possile influences.

That is the most basic form of scientific method.

Cultural taboo has been the most significant persuader of all consistently throughout history, so it has to be factored in.

Leave it out and your "actual answers" are meaningless.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 06:30 AM

Returning to questions Ake asked me, further up this page.

I don't know if the 'take-up' of the option of gay marriage is low, as I suspect it depends on which particular concoction of statistics is at hand. I do have two observations, however.

Firstly, the commercialised gay subculture invests heavily (both financially and symbolically) in encouraging a lifestyle premised on hedonism. Generations of gay men have now grown up thinking that ''''the scene'''' (as it's commonly called, at least here in the UK) is the be-all and end-all of being gay. If you buy into that belief, then the 'settling down' option can look dull by comparison.

Secondly, a small minority of gay activists have vocaly criticised gay marriage as an 'impersonation' of heterosexual conventions and thus some sort of sell-out of homosexuality's radical potential.

Unsurprisingly, I don't share either view (it would make this post intolerably long to go into why, though if you're desperate to know, ask away).

Ake's second question asks if I equate homosexual rights with the situation of other sexual minorities. I'd have to answer that on a case by case basis, but my rule of thumb is that if sexual activity of any kind is conducted unexploitatively and by consenting individuals, then the law has no business in interfering. Also, at a slight tangent, I can think of plenty of heterosexual set-ups that wouldn't meet those criteria.


For what it's worth, one main reason my partner and I opted for a civil partnership was that it secured us some equality with married couples over things like inheritance & taxation matters (how romantic!!!!) and next-of-kin rights. My partner is a nurse and has witnessed ghastly occasions where a long-term same-sex partner of a patient is elbowed out of the way by a 'biological family' who suddenly appear, often after years of no contact, to seize the decisions over how the patient should be treated. I'd love to know what our most vociferous anti-gay contributors think about that - or about the case of a friend of a friend who was evicted from his home of forty years by the distant (and hysterically homophobic) relatives of his deceased partner.

I have gone on a bit!! Happy Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Elspeth
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 07:33 AM

GfS. I'm nnot uncomfortable with confronting anything like that. I just feel nthat this conversation mostly consists of verbally beating eachother right now and I thought it would be good to look at the actual topic the thread is about.

I referred to them as the "Church of Hate" because I do not think they act very Christian, and guives the rest of us a bad name. People immediately assume you are prejudiced against all sorts of things if you associate the word "Christian" with yourself. Now I'm happy to call myself a Christian generally as it most closely fits in with what I believe. However I really dislike it when I get associated with things like this just because of the name in common!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Elspeth
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 07:41 AM

May I just add to that it disgust me that _anyone_, especially any person that calls themself a christian, would encourage the death penalty for _anything_.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 09:01 AM

Hey folks,

You might think I'm crazy, but I tthought I'd just return to tthe thread topic for a minute ... before the "gays are unnatural and weird perverts" mob comes riding back into town ...

thought you might find this interesting.

The Archbishop of York (Ugandan Born) has condemned the Bill going through Ugandas parliament.


click here

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Elspeth
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 11:33 AM

"The Archbishop of York (Ugandan Born) has condemned the Bill going through Ugandas parliament"

Well that's something nice to hear =)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 01:30 PM

Hello Smedley, Thank you for answering so concisely and civilly.

Just a couple of points; in my link further up the thread,I cited figures from Denmark, Norway and Sweden, countries which legalised homosexual unions up to twenty years ago.....these countries show the take up of homosexual unions to be very low in percentage terms compared to heterosexual.
The figures also appeared to show that the few homosexuals who opted for Union or Marriage, did so mainly for financial and benefit reasons rather than the traditional reasons, like "providing a stable environment to bring up children"
The researchers seemed to come to the conclusion that this amounted to "redefinition of marriage"

On civil rights and health issues, many here say that civil rights should be given to all equally regardless of health issues, but that does not happen in the real world....people of different sexes who engage in incest are forbidden by law to have sexual intercourse, to marry, or even to join in civil union, because of "related health issues". Mating between mother/offspring, father/offspring is extremely common in nature

These people are denied their "rights" because of "health issues", while the homosexual health figures on life expectancy, hiv/aids etc are equally bad, or worse.

So as I have been saying for months "rights" are not universal, but conditional. Denial of rights also applies to other groups who are deemed unsuitable, like people who are suffering from addictions or severe psychiatric problems.

This state of conditionality seems to blow a huge hole in the "gay rights" argument?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 01:34 PM

Sorry Smedley, I meant to add that ones "civil rights" seem to depend more on how vociferous ones pressure group is, than on fairness and equality...Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 01:46 PM

Ake,



"This state of conditionality seems to blow a huge hole in the "gay rights" argument? "


Only if you look at it in a shallow facile way and have the agenda of proving an untenable position.


To compare Gay with Straight you also have to examine the motivation of straight couples.

You assert that its all about procreation.

Not always.

Once you go east of europe it becomes all about money.

Even within Europe, there is social pressure to get married.

Some people get married at the age of 80 for the sake of companionship.

etc etc etc etc ....

Most importantly perhaps, when a straight couple gets married, the world says "congratulations".

When a Gay couple gets married, the world has a debate.



Thats when people like you come out of the woodwork and start banging on about your fixation with anal sex.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 02:07 PM

Smedley I'll re-post the Scandanavian figures.....They are interesting, please read them, and if yo've time get back with your views....Ake


LINK

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 02:15 PM

I think it time for someone to remind that heterosexual anal sex is pretty widespread too, as a variaiton [or even, I believe, with some couples, at least at one time, as a contraceptive device].

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: gnu
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 03:50 PM

Hahahahaaaaa! Pretty widespread... heheheheeee. I prefer a finger, myself.

Come on PEOPLE! 703 posts are not that far away!

Wha? Oh. Check the last drawn out, assinine bunch of crap... it was 2297 posts. Surely you can make it to a combined 3000... and far beyond. I have faith in you.

Merry Kissmeass!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 04:18 PM

Look out, Ake! Here comes one of those pesky flies again!

I can't verify whether the figures in the article you linked to are actually accurate or not because I haven't been able to find a reliably unbiased second source that will verify them.

AND

The article has a definite thrust toward a conservative bias, which is not surprising, considering that the article was from The National Review Online. The National Review is the Conservative magazine was founded in 1955 by the late Conservative pundit, William F. Buckley, Jr., and describes itself as "America's most widely read and influential magazine and web site for Republican/conservative news, commentary, and opinion."

In the past, the magazine supported Barry Goldwater, Ronald Reagan, and Pat Buchanan as Presidential candidates. Many of the magazine's commentators are affiliated with such think-tanks such as the Heritage Foundation and American Enterprise Institute. Prominent guest authors have included Newt Gingrich, Mitt Romney, and Sarah Palin in both the online and paper edition.

I would not accept anything found in this magazine unless I was able to find corroborating information from another, far less biased source.

Don Firth

(SWAT!!    Hah! Missed me again!!)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 04:51 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 04:54 PM

WHACK!!! (wipes away the juice)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 05:14 PM

Ake ... thats disgusting ... I mean I know you are prone to graphic and depraved fantasies, but whacking off in public ...


P.S. ... the link you have provided is a press release, not an independant synopsis.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 05:18 PM

No, Ake, I think you managed to smack yourself in the face with that one.

I browsed through several of the articles posted on the Williams Institute web site, and just about everything I read directly contradicted the assertions and statistics that you've been posting all this time. If you're referring to a specific article, you'd better point it out, because it certainly isn't leaping out at anyone.

In fact:    CLICKY!!

Wipe your nose, Ake. It's bleeding on your shirtfront.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 06:03 PM

It should be clear from my link that the Williams Inst is funded in support of a "Gay and Lesbian academic programme", that is why I printed the link in the first place.

Why should an organisation which supports a "Gay and Lesbian programme", print DUBIOUS statistics against homosexual marriage take-up.....That proves to me my figures are correct, I would not be able to say the same about the figures quoted immediately above this post.
For a start, the Scandinavian figures are over a twenty year period as opposed to a much shorter period in the Californian figures.
Also my article states that when homosexual unions are first introduced, ther is something of a rush....this soon tails off and drops dramatically as time progresses.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: gnu
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 06:20 PM

So, there are far less fags and dykes? What a revelation! Kinda makes one wonder what all the fuss is about then, don't it?