BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 01:06 AM

GfS, I'm not going to waste time and energy answering your tantrum point by point because anybody who reads this thread can see that you are simply raving and frothing at the mouth (which is the only "Frotho" around here).

But the lady's "own agenda" did not involve any antipathy toward me. The only "self absorbed nincompoop" around here is you.

You know absolutely nothing about my private life, and what you keep claiming about me is actually libelous and I can prove it. If you had the guts to use your own real name—as I do—I might be tempted to haul you into court and sue your ass off. But, coward that you are, you not only hide behind an inaccurate pseudonym, but you haven't even registered as a member. Even so, I could trace you down (the internet being a bit more porous than many people are aware of) and have you served with papers, but I probably won't because I don't want to dirty my hands wrestling with slime. But you really should think about the possibility. I might change my mind, haul your butt into court, and hang it out to dry.

You really out to be a bit more careful about the way you mouth off about people and things you know not of. There are such things as consequences.

By the way, do you realize just how downright bitchy your last several posts sound!???   Bloody fascinating!!

####

By the way, GfS, as to whether I'm a "whack job" or not for pointing out Cohen's claims being the basis of the anti-homosexual Ungandan laws, did you watch the video I linked to? I didn't know that the Ungandans were using Cohen's book that way until I watched the video. Maybe you should watch it and learn.

Nah! It'll never happen!

Don Firth

P. S. Hey, mousethief! Glad to see you're back! I've missed you around here and wondered where you'd got to!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 11:51 PM

Thanks, GfS.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 11:46 PM

Frotho:"..As far as my being a "sperm donor" and walking away from my responsibilities and acting "uncompassionately," she was the aggressor in the liaison..."

GfS: Aggressor??? So, she overwhelmed you???...What an unprincipled puss! Now you're blaming her?? LMAO!!

Frotho:"..When I offered marriage, she was the one who left. She had her own agenda,..."

Well, do you blame her?? She probably clocked what kind of self absorbed nincompoop, you are. I wouldn't want you around my kids either!..."her own agenda?"....

Probably went out to look for a real man....didn't she?

Frotho:"..didn't know them well personally, but when I asked "What's with them!?" I was told a great deal about them by people who did knew them well. Simple as that."

GfS: Well being such a 'champion of human decency', and a news reporter, why didn't you have the decency to ask them yourself? Lack of interest?..Too busy?..it wasn't about you??...self absorption? Report another story that you NEVER checked out the FACTS??....Sounds just like you!

Frotho:"...Re: God. Already answered that. Learn to read."

GfS: No you didn't! Who do you think you're kidding, this time??
If you think that your bit,"Well, just because I'm a member of a church doesn't mean that I believe in an anthropomorphic God who looks like Professor Dumbledore and performs magic tricks."..is an answer...its a dodge! Of course God isn't an anthropomorphic creature. According to your 'religion' , God is a spirit that gives the substance of life John 1:3-All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4:In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men...9:That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."......
...once again, what do ALL living things have in common??
The will to survive and reproduce....whether an amoeba, a plant, an insect, a fish, mammal..etc....When something interferes with one or both of those two things, and you had the ability to restore one of those two things of life back, wouldn't you do it, or direct them to the FACT that it can be restored??...and you think that is hate??? Maybe its called 'compassion'(look it up). Instead of making excuses for being so reckless in your youth, why don't you at least find out how you can help, instead of washing your hands with appeasement?..Too much effort, and compassion, eh?

Has it ever occurred to you, that certain VALUED qualities, sensitive qualities, that were damaged in people SHOULD be genetically passed down, if only they knew there was a way to get there??? You don't think, that deep inside certain homosexuals, that there is a place of deep pain, and wishing, 'if they only could...but I can't'. Now maybe I'm talking to the wrong guy, because of your LACK OF WILL to do that, but there are others, who know exactly what I'm saying! Your blathering about me hating homosexuals, is utterly complete nonsense.
When they get defensively nasty about it, I pity them, but I see hope, even if they don't, at that time.


Frotho:"......the reason that I am contributing to this thread, you and Ake are spreading the same kind of hate.."

GfS: Hate??? Bullshit again! You're the one denying them any way out IF THEY WANTED IT, with your stupid brain-lock!

Frotho:"...It's a cliché, but that's because it's true:   "Evil triumphs when good men [people] do nothing..."

GfS: That is exactly why I have to counter your disinformation, lies, and general politically biased bullshit! Funny, what is the quote.. uummm ...'Patriotism is the last refuge of despots!'...

Mousethief:"...You should answer this claim. Responding as you do just shows you have no answer, implying you know it's true..."

GfS: I shall, after I view the link,..and because you asked..okay? I just had to run, and I do now...but I will watch it and judge for myself. Contrary to what 'Frotho' says, Dr.Cohen, is not a hero of mine, and as I posted earlier, I wasn't much impressed with his methods, but, that being said, he claims to have renounced homosexuality, got married, and had children, one who went to an Ivy League university, and during the commencement speech, declared that his father was an ex-homosexual, which he says the graduate's mouths dropped open, because they were being taught differently. Those memos, which came out in the early 70's, 1973, I believe,(because I got one), were steering psychologists, and therapists that homosexuality was not going to be regarded as a psychological reproductive dysfunction....due to 'social and political pressures'!.......not science!!(<<< my accurate insertion). I guess someday, it may be 'politically incorrect' to be a senior citizen, too, the way medicine is being dictated by bureaucrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 08:24 PM

"And the message upon which this whole Ungandan "kill the homosexuals" movement—read genocide—is based is found in Richard Cohen's book. What he says in his book is completely at odds with medical and psychological practice, and indeed, Cohen has neither credentials nor sanction by any professional organization. He's a charlatan. Yet, his book is being used as the basis for the passage of the "kill the homosexuals" laws in Uganda."

GfS: More evidence that you are a whack job! You've lost it pal, and anyone either side of this issue should clearly see that, by now. Just read your insane babbling!

You should answer this claim. Responding as you do just shows you have no answer, implying you know it's true.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 07:56 PM

GfS:    "..like knocking up a woman, and leaving her pregnant, isn't a choice??..."

Once again, you run your keyboard with a total lack of information, only your own bile. As far as my being a "sperm donor" and walking away from my responsibilities and acting "uncompassionately," she was the aggressor in the liaison. When I offered marriage, she was the one who left. She had her own agenda, so if anyone was deserted, it was me. And no, I'm not going to explain any further because whatever I say, you'll try to make something sleazy out of it, just as you already have. You don't know anything about it, so you may as well stop making an ass of yourself.

GfS:   "You claimed in your post you hardly knew them, now you seem to have gotten intimate details of their life's outlook! I think you're full of shit!"

I didn't know them well personally, but when I asked "What's with them!?" I was told a great deal about them by people who did knew them well. Simple as that. Full of shit? Never take a laxative, GfS. Your head will shrink to the size of a raisin.

Re: God. Already answered that. Learn to read.

As to my "obsession" and the reason that I am contributing to this thread, you and Ake are spreading the same kind of hate messages that Richard Cohen spread in his book—messages that allow other bigots and homophobes such as those who murdered Matthew Shepard and the "kill the homosexual" factions in Uganda to feel justified in committing the atrocities they commit. I oppose anyone who spreads that kind of hate message.

Obessed? Damned right! I'm obsessed with human decency. Simple as that. It's a cliché, but that's because it's true:   "Evil triumphs when good men [people] do nothing." So when people like you and Ake spread your venom, I feel compelled to speak out.

Don Firth

P. S. See? I said that GoofuS was going to have quite a hissy-fit over my last post. Best s/he can come up with is libelous fictions and personal attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 06:26 PM

"All these threads have basically been about whether rights should be universal, or remain conditional as they are at present."

The bottom line is this. Why should any right afforded one human being be conditional to another human being based on outright ignorance, prejudice, bigotry, hate or any other 'condition' such as being different in any way?

There is no excuse. If one human being has a right to something then they all should and vice versa. What is so hard about this principle to understand? If we are to have HUMAN rights then they should be applied to all humans.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:59 PM

Actually, it doesn't matter. Principles are principles, and have no gender bias........unless you wrongly subscribe to the thinking, that there is a double standard.....(wink)
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:51 PM

..yeah?...but what if I was a guy? Then what?..You mean I would be in opposition to men who act like...ummm...perhaps Don, who has treated the first woman so...umm..'uncompassionately'?....gosh, that was polite!
Then would I be a principled guy?????

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:40 PM

There are, sadly, a tiny minority of women who hate gay men for the reason that their existence means that **even fewer men** are interested in them.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:36 PM

sigh I was hoping it would not be so, but I see now that GtS is a woman. Since I am a woman myself, I always hope to find females more empathic and less dogmatic...

(Nothing personal, guys. Some of my best friends are male. *g*)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:32 PM

Don Froth:"Yes, GfS, I can admit it when I'm wrong, but I'm not wrong in this case. You are the one who doesn't dare admit that you are wrong because the whole defense you've built up for yourself is that sexual orientation is a matter of choice."

GfS: ALL sexual orientation?? ..like knocking up a woman, and leaving her pregnant, isn't a choice??...No, you were born that way...I guess that's what you mean.

"The three people I have met who claimed to have been cured of being homosexual were psychological basket cases. With them, "ex-gay" means depressed and perpetually angry. Also, all three of them have entirely given up sexual activity of any kind. And no friends, because not many people can stand to be around them for any length of time. Obviously, they have stuffed their true sexual nature back into the closet and are living in rigid denial. So much for your "cure."

GfS: You claimed in your post you hardly knew them, now you seem to have gotten intimate details of their life's outlook! I think you're full of shit!

You attack me on the basis of what you presume to be my religious beliefs, implying that I am a hypocrite because I don't believe in the power of God to "heal" gay people of their "aberration."


Gfs: No I didn't. I said you seemed to worship a God who is powerless to change lives...again, you're full of it!

"Well, just because I'm a member of a church doesn't mean that I believe in an anthropomorphic God who looks like Professor Dumbledore and performs magic tricks. It's an easy enough refutation of your position if I were to simply respond, "Why would God change them? He made them that way in the first place!"

GfS: You're wrong again!..Being so 'wonderfully Bible literate', you must have 'overlooked' the Gospel story, when Jesus was asked why a certain blind man was born that way.(oops)...remember the answer Jesus gave him??........UMMM fumble blather fumble...

"You are at odds with the medical and psychology fields with the contention, that sexual orientation is a matter of choice,"

GfS: Bullshit again! Some are born that way, as I described in an earlier post..and if you read your OWN post, about the guy who as he matured, and left alone to develop, he grew out of it. Oops, you forgot about that one...

"...and you cling fast to your hero, Richard Cohen, self-styled "ex-gay" who claims he cured himself and also claims he can cure others. His method? He lies on a sofa with his clients, strokes and caresses them, and assures them that they are, indeed, loved."

GfS: Personally, Dr. Cohen is not 'my hero'..He is just a person, who has had a turn around, and refutes your stupidly blind political crap, that you say is in the name of 'civil rights'. You indeed would deny anyone the RIGHT' TO CHANGE, and/or get medical treatment, based on your own PERSONAL political convictions(?)...Now just who is being narrow minded, and denying the right to even request help..and you think that the Fascist pigs, are somebody else....ya' got hoodwinked, Captain!

"Is that the way you go about it, counselor?"

GfS: No! It's all in perception...and you are indeed blind..blinded by something I find far more 'destructive' than homosexuality...and that is being a sperm donor, to a woman you deceived, and walking away from the child. You're just laundering your guilt(if you ever had the concept of right or wrong, or a conscience at all!!)...so you make excuses for everyone else to do what ever 'feels' good,..and make it so pompous, righteous, such a 'civil right'. YOU are the type of person that give reason for young boys begin to resent their masculinity!

"You and Ake are at least partially responsible for such atrocities as the brutal torturing and pistol-whipping of Matthew Shepard, whose battered body was left hanging on fence on a country road in Wyoming, to be found by a passersby,.....blah blah blah"

GfS: You are full of shit! How dare you make such a ridiculous accusation!
Your post shows beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you are irrational! I would think that a rational person would be totally embarrassed on making such an absurd accusation!...but then again, one would have to first have a dignity, to embarrass. You seem to have none!

"And the message upon which this whole Ungandan "kill the homosexuals" movement—read genocide—is based is found in Richard Cohen's book. What he says in his book is completely at odds with medical and psychological practice, and indeed, Cohen has neither credentials nor sanction by any professional organization. He's a charlatan. Yet, his book is being used as the basis for the passage of the "kill the homosexuals" laws in Uganda."

GfS: More evidence that you are a whack job! You've lost it pal, and anyone either side of this issue should clearly see that, by now. Just read your insane babbling!

"People like Cohen—and you—and Ake—spout the fictions that give psychopaths such those who murdered Matthew Shepard a feeling of justification for their brutality."

GfS: More off the wall wild, hostile, inaccurate frothing.


"Further:   It's notable that both you and Ake snap onto any thread having to do with homosexuality, like magnets to a refrigerator door. You can't resist an opportunity to spread your misinformation."

GfS: Speaking for yourself???? How come YOU are the one we find here??....spreading...ummm...what??? Perhaps your quote is revealing YOUR motive, that causes you to feel so compulsive, about the issue. Surely, your behavior toward that woman, who bore your child, and the child, could be an indication on just how much you are capable of 'loving' a woman..maybe you can't. I noticed in the post, when you went on about how Barbara was so interested in YOU, (Prop 8 thread), and all YOUR interests. You went on and on about YOU...You NEVER ONCE SAID THAT YOU LOVED HER....read it yourself! Want me to post it for you??

"But why are the two of you so obsessed with male homosexuality? What this kind of obsession clearly indicates (and this is sound psychology) is that you are both latent homosexuals who are in rigid denial and can't miss an opportunity to argue, not with me and others—but with your own inclinations."

Gosh, are you saying that homosexuals are really not as sound in the noggin' as you've previously indicated??.....Gosh, coming from you, that's quite a turn around!...but then again, you should know!


Don Firth

"P. S. Okay, GoofuS, let's hear your vociferous denials, personal attacks on everything about me, and your general kicking and screaming tantrum. This one ought to be a doozy!!"

GfS: Nope. I think you said enough to discredit yourself...all by yourself!

Happy now?.....You've got your heart's desire........all that attention!
Good Job!!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:14 PM

Oops ...

"Keith, you have not misunderstood."

should have read:

"Keith, you have misunderstood."

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:12 PM

"MP.....Perhaps you would open a new thread on HPV, the issues seem completely different from the ones we are discussing here."

Yes - they don't involve Gays ...

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:10 PM

"HPV is a false analogy.
It is likely to be transmitted equally by gay or straight penetrative sex.
It is just that men do not get cervical cancer."


Keith, you have not misunderstood.


Here is Ake's reasoning.


-Gay men risk catching HIV when they have unprotected sex with other gay men which could lead to them dying of Aids later in life,

-therefore Homosexuality for them is an unhealthy lifestyle that should be discouraged and homosexual mens rights should be curtailed to protect them.


I can apply the same reasoning as follows.


Straight Women risk catching HPV when they have unprotected sex with men which could lead to them dying of cervical cancer later in life, therefore Heterosexuality for them is an unhealthy lifestyle that should be discouraged and heterosexual womens rights should be curtailed to protect them.


In fact, both positons are utter bollocks and the answer in both cases is to use a condom.


Ake also makes out that other demographics who suffer from AIDS are distinct from Gay men and should not be subject to the same restrictions as Gay men.

But as you have pointed out, anyone may die of AIDS, which means it is not an exclusively Gay issue.

Whereas Cervical cancer is exclusive to women.


By Akes reasoning, women should have their civil rights controlled by those who know best.


Now if it wasn't for those bloody suffragettes ramming their "liberal" dogma down our throats ...

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:05 PM

Portugal parliament votes to permit gay marriage

By Barry Hatton

Associated Press
Posted: 01/08/2010 07:40:04 AM PST
Updated: 01/08/2010 07:40:05 AM PST

LISBON, Portugal — Portugal's parliament passed a bill today that would make the predominantly Catholic nation the sixth in Europe to permit gay marriage.

Conservative President Anibal Cavaco Silva is thought unlikely to veto the Socialist government's bill, which won the support of all left-of-center parties. His ratification would allow the first gay marriage ceremonies to take place in April — a month before Pope Benedict XVI is due on an official visit to Portugal.

Right-of-center parties opposed the change and sought a national referendum on the issue, but their proposal was rejected and the government's bill was passed by 125 votes to 99.

Gay rights campaigners applauded from the galleries, hugged and kissed outside the building and ate wedding cake.

"This law rights a wrong," Prime Minister Jose Socrates said in a speech to lawmakers, adding that it "simply ends pointless suffering."

Socrates said the measure is part of his effort to modernize Portugal where homosexuality was a crime until 1982. Two years ago his government lifted Portugal's ban on abortion, despite church opposition.

Gay marriage is currently permitted in Belgium, the Netherlands, Spain, Sweden and Norway. Canada, South Africa and six U.S. states also permit it.

The bill removes a reference in the current law to marriage being between two people of different sexes.

"It's a slight change to the law, it's true," Socrates, the prime minister, said. "But it is a very important and symbolic step towards fully ensuring respect for values that are essential in any democratic, open and tolerant society: the values of freedom, equality and non-discrimination."

Like neighboring Spain, which introduced same-sex marriages four years ago, Portugal is an overwhelmingly Roman Catholic country and previous efforts to introduce gay marriage ran into strong resistance from religious groups and conservative lawmakers.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 03:02 PM

Yes, GfS, I can admit it when I'm wrong, but I'm not wrong in this case. You are the one who doesn't dare admit that you are wrong because the whole defense you've built up for yourself is that sexual orientation is a matter of choice.

The three people I have met who claimed to have been cured of being homosexual were psychological basket cases. With them, "ex-gay" means depressed and perpetually angry. Also, all three of them have entirely given up sexual activity of any kind. And no friends, because not many people can stand to be around them for any length of time. Obviously, they have stuffed their true sexual nature back into the closet and are living in rigid denial. So much for your "cure."

You attack me on the basis of what you presume to be my religious beliefs, implying that I am a hypocrite because I don't believe in the power of God to "heal" gay people of their "aberration." Well, just because I'm a member of a church doesn't mean that I believe in an anthropomorphic God who looks like Professor Dumbledore and performs magic tricks. It's an easy enough refutation of your position if I were to simply respond, "Why would God change them? He made them that way in the first place!"

You are at odds with the medical and psychology fields with the contention, that sexual orientation is a matter of choice, and you cling fast to your hero, Richard Cohen, self-styled "ex-gay" who claims he cured himself and also claims he can cure others. His method? He lies on a sofa with his clients, strokes and caresses them, and assures them that they are, indeed, loved.

Is that the way you go about it, counselor?

You and Ake are at least partially responsible for such atrocities as the brutal torturing and pistol-whipping of Matthew Shepard, whose battered body was left hanging on fence on a country road in Wyoming, to be found by a passersby, who, at first, thought the body hanging on the fence was a scarecrow. Shepard died in a hospital a few days later of inoperable brain damage. Why was this young college student so brutally murdered? He was gay.

And the message upon which this whole Ungandan "kill the homosexuals" movement—read genocide—is based is found in Richard Cohen's book. What he says in his book is completely at odds with medical and psychological practice, and indeed, Cohen has neither credentials nor sanction by any professional organization. He's a charlatan. Yet, his book is being used as the basis for the passage of the "kill the homosexuals" laws in Uganda.

People like Cohen—and you—and Ake—spout the fictions that give psychopaths such those who murdered Matthew Shepard a feeling of justification for their brutality.

Here's your hero being interviewed, GfS. Watch it. Watch the whole thing, all 17 minutes of it.

Richard Cohen.

Further:   It's notable that both you and Ake snap onto any thread having to do with homosexuality, like magnets to a refrigerator door. You can't resist an opportunity to spread your misinformation. But why are the two of you so obsessed with male homosexuality? What this kind of obsession clearly indicates (and this is sound psychology) is that you are both latent homosexuals who are in rigid denial and can't miss an opportunity to argue, not with me and others—but with your own inclinations.

Don Firth

P. S. Okay, GoofuS, let's hear your vociferous denials, personal attacks on everything about me, and your general kicking and screaming tantrum. This one ought to be a doozy!!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:56 PM

MP... This thread is simply a "follow-on" from the other threads on homosexual marriage, homosexual fostering, etc, the opening post runs......"Uganda is debating a law which would criminalise homosexuality, including the death penalty in some circumstances. The law is being promoted, apparently, by American Evangelical missionaries. Would any of our resident Christians and/ or homophobes care to indicate whether they find this to their taste?"
The post was designed to provoke heated responses, but as you know very well   "All we need, to allow evil to triumph, is that good men or women say nothing"..   :0)

On the other threads, we were debating the rights and wrongs of homosexual marriage and fostering, some maintaining that "rights" should be universal, some that "rights" should be conditional on the behaviour of minorities.....as in health issues, or the effect granting minorities their "rights" would have on other groups.....as in the re-definition of marriage to accomodate homosexual practice.

All these threads have basically been about whether rights should be universal, or remain conditional as they are at present.

These issues could pertain to any minority group seeking equal status, not just homosexuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:23 PM

Hot tub, GfS ? Martini ? Do you get *all* your images of us faggots from re-runs of Starksy and Hutch ?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:20 PM

"It's a new thread that is needed... "


should have read


It's NOT a new thread that is needed...


mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:09 PM

The point being made about HPV, as with other STI's, is that they are rife across the whole sexuality spectrum where safe sex is not used. I never actually brought HPV up but it, among with other STI's, are actually worthy of mention. They are all analogous in respect to sexually transmitted diseases. Whether I initiated it or not I am happy to involve the comparisons to show that STI's - period - affect all sexualties.

Just what, exactly, are the issues we are discussing here then because I am losing track. The thread went off topic, regarding the thread title, miles back and what has taken over 750 posts since then is to try and explain why this blast against male homosexuals is and always has been unfair. Human beings have sex, some lots more than others, some with multiple partners and some remain monogamous, no matter their sexuality. The vast majority here have stood up for the equal rights of all and not the singling out anyone because we are all in the same boat. We are all human.

Lets put it this way. If an openly gay couple, or a single gay male, came into a folk club and sat down next to me I would not be bothered one iota. My concerns would be about their songs, for that is what I would be there to listen to, and what their sexuality is has nothing to do with me. I would drink from the same glass or cup as they have been using. I would lend them my guitar. Whether I enjoyed their company would be down to them as people not their sexuality. Likewise if they enjoyed my company I suspect. I am far more interested in the whole person rather than one aspect of their life that has nothing to do with me. I would not consider for a moment that they are disease ridden or that being close to them will affect my health (no more than anyone else that is, as I try to avoid people who are coughing and sneezing all over the place no matter where I am!). In short, they are 'just another person to chat to, meet and listen to'. No biggy.

It's not gay men that scare me at all... They pose no threat to my health or my life by being out there around me - certainly not by being gay.

It's a new thread that is needed...

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:06 PM

The point, Ake, is that you bandy about an old statistic to make a point that, in your view, gay men have deserved or brought upon themselves, or are responsible for HIV/AIDS because you believe them to be immoral or hygienic or whatever your prejudice happens to be this week.

The increasing rate of heterosexual diagnosis in the UK, the experience of HIV where it first emerged in straight populations and then the shocking STI data for young heterosexual folks in this country show your point to be as wrong as your 'evidence' is selectively misleading.

The mechanics of HIV transmission and the risky practices that straight and gay people indulge in also proves that your differentiation is futile.

But I suspect this is all too complicated for you. Anything of intellectual substance to contribute?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:50 PM

Smeds:"I won't bore others who read this with a list of my qualifications and professional achievements (and others who have read this thread will make their own judgements about how 'semi-literate' I am)..."

More Smeds:"I wish you all the ill will in the world.
Or, as Allen Ginsberg once said, go fuck yourself with the atom bomb."

I know. You're so mad you want to stomp your feet and throw your Martini across the hot tub!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:29 PM

Royston...How can we take you seriously?
Your statement " As a percentage of the whole group, gay men suffer disproportionately with HIV infection", directely contradicts what you said a couple of posts ago

I think another siesta is called for.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:20 PM

And while we are being candid, let's just clear up this whole 'gay plague' thing. As a percentage of the whole group, gay men suffer disproportionately with HIV infection.

The numbers show that this will soon be a historical irrelevance.

One of the reasons is the smaller pool of carriers. Infection can spiral very quickly. There is no moral dimension to this. It's plain old bad luck.

The other reason is that the primary vector is penetrative sex - where the options for gay men who wish to practice penetrative sex are limited. IS limited to anal sex.

Anal sex is a more efficient vector than vaginal sex because of the greater risk of tissue damage and bleeding. Again, no moral dimension. Just mechanics.

Vaginal sex can result in the same sort of tissue damage as anal and of course, as google will tell you and as the bible, torah and quran will confirm, straight couples have always enjoyed a bit of back door action.

In healthy, clean vaginal intercourse, the transmission rate where one partner is positive is A BIT less than in anal intercourse.

If the vagina, anus or penis is damaged or sore from, say, another STI, then the risk of transmission is multiplied across all vectors.

Keith, you have claimed to be a scientist, am I right or am I right in the sense of a general overview here?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:14 PM

I'm afraid they are becoming incoherent.

Perhaps a break for tea?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:03 PM

Ake, Keith, GfS

I know that I should get up to date on this thread but, gawd, more than 800 posts of homophobia and racism is just too much for me.

The point Lox is making about HPV and any other STI is that the incidence is sky rocketing amongst straight people.

This means that straight people are suffering from grotesque sexual hygiene and morals.

This means that, now new UK HIV diagnoses are increasing so much faster amongst straight people and the other STI's show their behaviours to be so risky as regards unprotected coitus and because the tissue damage from other STI's is a risk multiplier for HIV transmission, so you have the perfect storm for an exponential rise of heterosexual HIV.

This is how it played out in Africa, it is how it will play out here until people like you three are stopped from spreading your vile hatred that tries to apportion blame, and reserve consequences, for our shared human miseries.

Don't you get it? Not even a little bit?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 12:36 PM

OK, GfS, I have attempted in the past to be as patient as I could with your idiocy. Now you have taken to directly insulting me.

I won't bore others who read this with a list of my qualifications and professional achievements (and others who have read this thread will make their own judgements about how 'semi-literate' I am), I will instead respond with my considered judgement of you based on wading through your embarrassingly banal and one-dimensional posts.

You have an obsessive prejudice against homosexuals. Every sentence you write suppurates with venom. You seem eaten up from the inside by bitterness and loathing. You despise me because my health, happiness and ability to counter your homphobic bile represents a continual refutation of your passionately clung-to fantasy that homosexuals are inadequate or damaged or in need of help.

I wish you all the ill will in the world.

Or, as Allen Ginsberg once said, go fuck yourself with the atom bomb.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 12:33 PM

my god, you are all barking mad. Good AIDS, bad AIDS, worthy sufferers or not. You're all sick! Why aren't you ashamed of yourselves?

Black, white, gay or straight, HIV will get you if you're not safe, celibate or monogamous. Where it enters hetero communities like in Africa it is a hetero disease. Where it enters gay communities it can be for a while, a gay thing. The numbers show it is on the way to being a mostly heterosexual problem in this country. Your racist fantasies notwithstanding.

Where is the evidence for this 2-3 or even 1 percent gay thing? I thought 10pc was the accepted estimate. It's not relevant to this discussion, it's just the first time I heard it.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 12:27 PM

HPV is a false analogy.
It is likely to be transmitted equally by gay or straight penetrative sex.
It is just that men do not get cervical cancer.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 12:26 PM

MP.....Perhaps you would open a new thread on HPV, the issues seem completely different from the ones we are discussing here.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 12:23 PM

Jim Mc Lean.....Nice to see you on the thread.

Sanity... "Howsitgaun ma auld freen".....   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 12:00 PM

Smeds:"Oh GfS, have you ever thought of a career in comedy??? Yes, I did say that, in the context of a lengthier post, the rest of which you excised because it attacks your views."

Don't flatter yourself! The rest of your quote does not attack my views. Rather shows the pedantic semi-literate blathering of someone who is acting like their parents told them to stop sucking their thumb.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 11:00 AM

Sadly the HPV linkage is not just for cervical cancers either. 70% of cervical cancers are caused by HPV-16 and HPV-18 and these are increasingly being shown to possible links with oral and pharyngeal cancers too. There is an argument that the current vaccine for HPV be extended to males. More work needs to be done but the research seems sounds enough along with the figures.

And lest we forget... one does not have to be promiscuous to get HIV or HPV. You only need one exposure ultimately. Whilst the chances of contracting such disease increases with promiscuity and un-safe sex, that does not mean a one off exposure will not occur.

I suspect less judgements and a more humane approach to caring for anyone with any disease should be the way forward. We are all, potentially, only one love affair away from such diseases. Anything that encourages a stable, monogamous relationship, for any gender, has to be on the right lines. I know I have made mistakes in the past that could have been disasterous. Given the incubation of some of these disaeses, they could still be disasterous. But for the grace of God...

I certainly have no wish to cast any stones...

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 10:15 AM

HPV?

I didn't know what that is, for me & others, here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HPV

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 10:09 AM

"Royston, you continually fail to take into account the ratio of homosexuals to heterosexuals in the population."


And you continue to ignore the ratio of women dying as a result of HPV.

What is that ration again?

100% to 0%

And what percentage of young women women are thought to be infected with HPV?

40%

So according to Ake's own methodology, yet again, we must conclude that heterosexuality amongst young women is unhealthy and should not be promoted in our schools.


Either that, or Ake admits that his reaoning is fundamentally flawed.

You can't have it both ways.


To insist on double standards is to prove that you are exactly what you appear to be.

A twisted, hateful, bitter, hypocritical and deceitful homophobe.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:37 AM

GfS said:

"Even 'Smedley', an admitted homosexual, has the balls to admit that homosexuals CAN terminate their inclinations."

Oh GfS, have you ever thought of a career in comedy??? Yes, I did say that, in the context of a lengthier post, the rest of which you excised because it attacks your views.

Some years ago, I wrote a review of a stage show for a newspaper. I hated the show & the review was 99% negative. I did, however, predict that despite its shortcomings the show would be "a huge hit".

Next time I was passing the theatre, there on the billboard was the phrase "A Huge Hit" with my name appended.

Your selective mangling of my words, GfS, brought this incident to mind. I wonder why.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:30 AM

'Neither one of you two have any idea what I think'
Why shouldn't we - every bar we go into has its resident redneck.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:10 AM

A hundred years ago homosexuals were severely penalised; 40 years ago or so homosexuality was legalised; my concern is that it soon may be made compulsary.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:22 AM

Royston is free with the gross accusation "liar"
He has used it against me in other threads.
He should have read my 9th December post on this thread.

Some UK stats.
(Our situation is different because we have immigrants from Africa where it infects more heterosexuals than in western countries.)

Although only about 1% of the total population of Britain are adult gay men, almost half of the people living with HIV are gay men.

This means gay men are about 90 times more likely to be living with HIV than other people.

Similarly, although African people account for about 1% of the population in Britain, 33% of the people living with HIV are African.

This means African people in Britain are about 50 times more likely to be living with HIV than other ethnic groups.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3856963.stm

(Without the African dimension, gay men would account for rather more than the 53% quoted for USA)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 03:51 AM

Hi, Ake...over there across the pond.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 03:41 AM

Sorry link didn't work

try here

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 03:38 AM

Actually, I'm opposed to all forms of infidelity, hetero or homo. What is being particularly overlooked on this thread, and any other threads, similar to this nature, is people can do anything they want, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. In the case of hetero infidelities, let's face it, because of selfish, self absorbed, and immature behavior, often when there is two married people with children involved, affairs, cheating and such, devastates the children, of that marriage, not only when such piggish behavior is found out, and the family breaks, because of it. Not to mention,that the love made between the mother and father, creates an ambiance in the household, and whether or not, the adults are aware of it, that ambiance, does, in fact, remain in the home, and is nurturing to the children. A loving family sets the tone of the home, that children are raised, and is a covering of protection for them.
Anyone who was raised in a warm and loving home, can remember how it was when mom, and dad, were openly affectionate with each other, and as children, the comforting, happy feeling that was enjoyed by the little eyes, and hearts who were around it....Anyone remember that?
All this emphasis on sex, for sex sake, whether it is hetero, or homo, is usually shallow, and nourishes no one, except the very temporary itch it scratches.
Compare a loving couple's children, and the children of single parents, who parade a bunch of prospective mommies or daddies, in front of their kids, and getting their 'opinion' on who they like better, for their 'pick' of a new parent....not for the well being of the children, or family, but to re-assure, that particular parent's ego, or insecurities.
Also, children of broken homes, more often or not, blame themselves for one or the other parent leaving, and has a tragic sense of their own love's worth, because that child loves both his parents, and he grows up feeling that that love was not 'good' enough to cause them to stay together. That child grows up with a feeling that his love is ineffectual. I imagine many in here can relate to that, and it is truly a sad, and rather cruel, thing to impose on the child, who no one is relating to, as the parent pursues their own particular selfish crap!

Does that answer you question?...If not, I can gladly elaborate, if I thought anyone would benefit from it, or if it would spare one more person from being hurt by it.
With Warmest Regards to All,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 03:35 AM

Understandable figures from Roystons source

LINK

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 03:15 AM

Royston, you continually fail to take into account the ratio of homosexuals to heterosexuals in the population.

I will reapeat it again for you, but if you can't understand how this works, I think you might be better to stick to facebook.

Homosexuals make up 2-3% of the UK population.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:49 AM

In fact Ake is not just a bigot and a fool, he is a liar.

This graph from the HPA

http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1252660014250

Is the best summary of their 1999-2008 new UK infection data.

I shows that heterosexually acquired HIV has outstripped homosexually acquired HIV for the entire period - in some years by a factor of at least 3 to 1.

Oh dear Ake, by your rational we now need to do something to control these filthy heterosexual types, don't we? For what do you think heterosexual people are now receiving the AIDS punishment? GfS, anything to say about this?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 12:05 AM

Neither one of you two have any idea what I think..only what you think, I think....and to tell you the truth, you think pretty small.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:37 PM

Interesting to note that the veiws of our two resident 'phobes coincide pretty well with those of Mrs Robinson, and are not a million miles away from giving the thumbs up to the original question, as posed.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:14 PM

If a Gay man went to his doctor and said he wanted to be cured of his gayness, his doctor would apologize and say that there is no treatment.

If a gay man came to me saying the same thing, I would say "If you don't want to sleep with men, then don't sleep with men. If you would like to find a girlfriend then go and find one."

Any trained psychologist or counsellor would merely act as a facilitator to assist their patient to work things out for themselves.

Some non Gay men make the mistake of experimenting with homosexual intimacy and later regret it.

Some bisexual men swing from men to women.

Some gay men force themselves into relationships with women to fit in with social and cultural demands.



If you want to be 'cured' then it follows you want to be with a woman.

If that is because you like women, then you aren't gay.

If it is because you are afraid of the consequences socially, that means you are surrounded by homophobesand has no bearing on whether you are gay or not.


So GfS's idea of a "cure" is, accordiing to current knowledge, utter nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:55 PM

By the way,

From this link

"At the end of 2008, women accounted for 50% of all adults living with HIV worldwide"


A statistic which shows:

1. that denying homosexuals the same rights as the rest of us would not be an effective solution to the problem of HIV/AIDS

2. how Ake has hijacked the HIV issue as a lame lifesaver to hide his homophobiia,

3. and how little he really cares about HIV/AIDS or he would take an interest in learning enough about it that he might be able to develop a more useful approach.


The only justifications left to him are those he has yet to deny - the ones born of his fascination/revulsion for homosexual sex and his instinctive 'knowledge' that gay people are dangerous, mentally ill, disease infected perverts who need access to other gays or they might rape a child.


The Pharoah wears no clothes.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:44 PM

Don, What a friggin' cop out. You just can't admit that you might have learned something, that corrected your faulty assertions. Even 'Smedley', an admitted homosexual, has the balls to admit that homosexuals CAN terminate their inclinations. You just can't admit that you have been wrong...well good luck. It's a good thing that you are not in charge of who would be allowed to be treated, or get medical support, for anything that they might want to get treated for, if it disagreed with your political stance!..We'd all be in a world of hurt!
GfS