BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 05:06 AM

It appears that we have at last established and to a certain extent accepted what I have been saying all along, that homosexual practice and its associated lifestyles are dangerous and unhealthy....perhaps more unhealthy than other sexual minority practice which is illegal and whose participants have no "rights" whatsoever.

So much time and effort could have been saved here if certain members were not so constrained by a lunatic political agenda.

Many lives could also be saved, if this fact was taken on board by governments and an attempt made to target "at risk" groups as recommended in the UNAIDS conclusions.

The problem of course lies in that such targeting blows the crazy "liberal" equality agenda, straight out of the water.

This world is not "equal"....will never be "equal" and in some cases equality is not in the interests of society.

The targeting of "at risk" groups would also mean that immigration control would require to be reviewed, to bring the UK into line with the US. This of course would be another victory for common sense over "liberalism".

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 04:37 AM

Don is just trying to establish the truth.
Why don't you want him to do that Royston?
Why do you fear the truth?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 03:57 AM

1.6 to 0.09 is 18 times worse, BUT where did you get 1.6% from anyway??

5.6% as an average over the age span 15 to 44, according to HPA.
Even higher above 44years except that death removes thousands from the statistics.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 03:13 AM

0.09% of heterosexuals, 1.6% of homosexuals.

Every single case is a tragedy, HIV is a minority experience for both groups.

Don, let it go, with every masturbatory post Keith just settles deeper in his mire.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 02:32 AM

I have described how the scourge of AIDS in UK infects MSMs in numbers comparable to The Great Plague.
The situation for UK heteros could not be more different.
To be classed as a rare disease, it should infect only 0.07% every year.
0.09% of heteros have it IN TOTAL, after 40 years, even including the newly arrived Africans!
It is the rarest of rare diseases.

Why? There are ample numbers with the disease to start an epidemic, and have been from the start.
If an epidemic could start, it would have started decades ago.
We observe that it has not started.

There is an epidemic in Africa.
Africans have come here which affects our statistics.
There have always been a few hundred heteros infected per year.
We still see that plus the extra African cases.

There are thousands of heteros with AIDS. A few thousand more African cases will make no difference, and Royston found out for us that the Africans' strain is even LESS virulent than the strain that has ALREADY FAILED to cause a hetero epidemic in UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 09:09 PM

"It [an epidemic] just can not spread among heteros as it does among MSMs. Not my opinion but an observation."

Would you care to explain that, Keith?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 08:16 PM

""As for other STIs, hetero girls do suffer a lot of them , but MSMs far more.""

And HIV in heteros is rising 6.76 times faster than in MSMs.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 08:14 PM

""There is not really a rise among heteros now. It is just that a community of African people are living here now and it does spread among them.
The numbers are small because there are only a few thousands of them.""

Priceless.

What is the figure on HIV in Africa? 40% of heteros infected, or thereabouts.

And the African group you speak of is now mingling with our population, and you really believe that no infection will result, with 10% minimum of young hetero women obviously disregarding the need for safe sex, as evidenced by the STD figures.

Being blindly optimistic isn't a crime, but you are abusing the privilege.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 06:59 AM

As for other STIs, hetero girls do suffer a lot of them , but MSMs far more.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 06:52 AM

Sorry about the typo Don.
It should have been 15 to 44 of course.

In the West, MSMs may have been the first, but heteros were exposed from the earliest days too, 40 years ago now, via bisexuals, infected blood transfusions and shared needles.
If an epidemic was going to start, it could have done so in everyone of those 40 years.
It just can not spread among heteros as it does among MSMs. Not my opinion but an observation.

There is not really a rise among heteros now. It is just that a community of African people are living here now and it does spread among them.
The numbers are small because there are only a few thousands of them.

Royston was wrong about it, probably knowingly wrong.
He just really wished it was true, and wanted it to be believed.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 06:10 AM

And it still doesn't change the FACT that an increase of 500% is larger than an increase of 74%.

True that MSMs were the first group infected in the WEST, so the actual numbers infected are different. Nevertheless, heterosexual infections are increasing 6.76 times faster than MSM infections, regardless of the point of origin of the victims.

This knocks down the opinions expressed in this thread about male homosexuals being more promiscuous, and therefore more at risk than heteros.

Anyone having unprotected sexual intercourse is at risk, as the figures for other STDs clearly show, and those figures also show that promiscuity is a serious problem in young hetero women.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 06:00 AM

""5.6% is an average over a 30 year span of ages, 15 to 24.""


No wonder you have so much trouble with your statistics.

When I went to school, 15 to 24 was generally thought to be nine years.

How times have changed.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 09:57 AM

I expected to be challenged on why I extrapolated on the 5.6% figure.
I will explain anyway.
5.6% is an average over a 30 year span of ages, 15 to 24.
There will be zero 15 and 16 year olds infected by sex with men, and a very low number for teens and low 20s.

That means the numbers infected in the higher age range are much higher.
I would infer 10-15% or more.
Remember the Great Plague of 1665, second only to the Black Death, killed 15%

Royston says I can not be believed because I am right wing.
Not true, but even if I was Hitler this information is still from an official source, the HPA.
Completely neutral and authoratative.

Don T, on why MSMs suffer more than their fair share of AIDS.
Again from HPA.

"Behaviour change and sexual health promotion
MSM remain a priority for targeted HIV/STI prevention and health promotion
work in the UK, ......
Efforts need to focus on reducing the high numbers of sexual partners and
rates of partner change, and addressing the irregularity of condom use
during anal intercourse reported among MSM [7]."http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1227515298225

Finally then, Royston was wrong to suggest AIDS is worsening among heteros, but it is worsening among MSMs.
Royston was wrong to say heteros suffer more from other STIs, they are all worse among MSMs.
Royston's offensive anti straight statements were all based on these false premises, should never have been made, and should be withdrawn.
He has just said that he stands by them.
No politics. No unreliable sources. Just plain truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 04:32 PM

Royston, I did not realise you were signing off.
You have left as you began with false assertions.

Kevin de Cock did not repudiate anything significant to our differences.
He did not repudiate that no hetero epidemic is likely.
It is all there.

I was interested in your situation as a gay Muslim, but otherwise gave not a shit about your sexuality.
No one does these days.
You are not the only gay in the village.
It did occur to me that you would have personal experience of AIDS sufferers. I would have dropped the discussion any time you withdrew the false assertions in your first posts.
You still have not done that.

Your coming out did reveal your bigotry against straight people.
You had been calling others "bigot" but no one else approached the level of bigotry in those posts.
You are an arch hypocrite.

Your motive for trying to make people believe that the pattern of infection was changing against straight people also became clear.
You really wanted it to be true.
It is not my fault that it is not true.
I was just the messenger.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 08:53 AM

Don, you will never get it.
If the number increases from 1 to 5, that is a 500% increase, but it is still only five people.
The increase among heteros is hundreds of times lower than the limit for a rare disease, and it is only due to people moving here anyway.

You ask a very valid question. Why is it a raging epidemic for MSMs and an extremely rare disease in heteros?
The rest of us having been debating that for weeks, but it has all gone over your head.
Royston says it is because of "networks".
You always believe everything he says and attack anyone who disagrees with him, so I will leave it there.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 06:16 AM

""The increase for MSMs is an worsening of a raging epidemic.""

You are beginning to be a class comedy act Keith, along the lines of those guys who used to pratfall over everything in sight.

You've just spent a couple of months trying to tell us that HIV is incapable of reaching epidemic status in heteros, so how can it do so in gays?   Are they a different species?

And as for your smoke screen, I say again:-

Equate apples with apples, not submarines!

Seventy four percent is 74%!
Five hundred percent is 500%!

Whatever the numbers involved, that is the truth.

The increase among heterosexuals is 6.76 times greater than the increase among MSMs.

No amount of juggling will change that FACT, and making ridiculous comments like "infinitessimal to insignificant" merely serves to highlight the gaping holes in your perception of fact.

Every epidemic since life evolved on this planet has, at some point, passed from "infinitessimal to insignificant", but they don't tend to stop there, do they?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Keith A
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 05:30 AM

It is you making false comparisons Don T.

The increase for heteros takes their number from infinitesimal to negligable, and is only a result of people moving countries anyway.

The increase for MSMs is an worsening of a raging epidemic.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 03:39 AM

Royston: "I haven't had this much sport for ages."
Royston: "GfS, I still have some of your more sensational comments ringing in my ears - you said that you kick out (or words to that effect) when pushed, maybe it stops people from listening to what you were saying before the 'kick'."

GfS: How sporting of you!...The word I used, was 'shove'..'If someone shoves me, I'll shove back'...I don't get the 'kick' thing; why that is so offensive,..unless it has another connotation, of which I'm not aware.

Stay tuned...I've got some real goodies for ya'!.....but I've been spending a lot of time in the basement.....(project).

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 07:35 PM

""representing an increase of 8% since 2006, and 74% since 2000"
(The increase for heteros, remember was infinitesimal and only due to immigration anyway.)""

MSM increase since 2000 = 74%
Hetero increase since 2000 = 500%

Compare apples with apples laddie, and stop being disingenuous.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 02:28 PM

You are right Royston!
I did miss that it said "in London" on the next line.
Sorry. A mistake.(If it was a lie I would hardly have provided a link to it would I?)
Remember, you gave a figure of 4%, so you were wrong too.
So, replace 8.5% with 5.6%, and everything else I said still stands.
Over a third are over 44, and that is just the survivors!

It also says
"There has been a large rise in newly diagnosed HIV infections among MSM each year since the turn of the century. In 2007 there were a total of 2,679 newly diagnosed HIV infections (increasing to 3160 if adjusted for missing data), representing an increase of 8% since 2006, and 74% since 2000"
(The increase for heteros, remember was infinitesimal and only due to immigration anyway.)

The 3% I mentioned was the proportion of MSMs in the population.
The quote I provided gave the figures for ghon.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 06:07 AM

And a final thought from me.

When, Keith, you mocked me for weeks because I said that the comments in 'The Telegraph' ascribed to Kevin de Cock were significantly wrong, when you called me arrogant and a fool for that, only then to have Kevin de Cock repudiate the very things I maintained were wrong: When that happened, you had the opportunity to stop and think - outside of the statistics - that maybe you don't actually know or understand as much as you like to think that you do.

But no, you carried on regardless.

When I told you I was gay, you had another opportunity to stop and think. You might have suspected - correctly as it happens - that someone who has lived his life as a gay man and community activist, might just know and understand a lot more than you do about the issues around sex, sexuality and HIV. You might have considered that I have lived my life in the shadow of this disease (thank God, HIV negative) and have watched friends and loved ones receive diagnoses and have buried a few too many of them. You would have been correct.

You might have considered that having watched people go down with this disease for a range of reasons ranging from "couldn't care less" to youthful naivete, to being infected by a cheating partner, to being raped; that I have a much keener understanding of exactly how and why this disease spreads that you could ever fear to acquire and certainly could never learn from your statistics even before you corrupt and bastardise them.

But you didn't consider any of those things.

You just carried on regardless.

I suspected, because you are a right-wing bigot, that me being gay would just appear to you to be a brilliant line of attack. I could have been proven wrong but I wasn't was I?

Like I said, you have exceeded my greatest expectation, and now we all know what's what.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 04:44 AM

long guests = lonq quests

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 04:43 AM

What you need to learn, Keith, is that these discussions start with issues, principles.

You, without fail, appear with statistics that support right-wing socio-political positions.

Why is that?

You select data from dubious sources (like virusmyth.org at the start of this episode) and when you get knocked down, you don't re-evaluate your assumptions but you go on long guests for more data that supports the right-wing positions.

Do you believe that is academic impartiality?

In a recent thread attacking Muslims you produced with a flourish some report that said (for the sake of argument) small% of Muslim students want Sharia law in the UK. Your "angle" was clear and then when someone pointed out that large% didn't want it, we just got a load of confused mumbling from you about blah blah, sizeable minority, blah blah, - to what end, Keith - you are always slewing or inventing things to support a very obvious agenda. Everyone gets it...now.

Gradually you get pushed to extreme measures - like the bare-faced lies and outrageous unsupported exclamations of the last day or so - still in an effort to support those same right-wing views.

And when people accuse you of being a right wing bigot, you cry foul and run away and do things like reactivate an old thread - where everyone lines up to tell you that you are regarded as such, for the reasons I cite.

And then you still refuse to re-evaluate your assumptions and carry on with the same old stuff, until you end up in the state you are now.

Eventually you will get the message. But you are going to have to stop and look carefully at your assumptions and your motivations.

Because at the moment you are positively Melville-esque in your appearance, Ahab.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 04:24 AM

Slam Dunk!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 04:23 AM

Keith, you nasty little man, you just can't stop telling lies can you?

Gonorrhea: "The best survey we have found says MSMs are about 3%.

Well, according to the OFFICIAL DATA (take your imaginary survey and shove it, don't even bother to try to justify it)

http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1215589015024

There were 16,929 diagnoses of gonorrhea in the UK population in 2008.
There were a further 8,578 suspected cases that were treated as such to be on the safe side or as a matter of post-exposure or post suspected exposure prophylaxis.

So worst case = 25,507 cases in all.

Of those, 4,777 were MSM's.

So that gives us - using the total guideline number of 1,989,500 MSM's in the population - a prevalence of ARE YOU READY FOR THIS

0.24%

3% you say! 3%! You lying bugger!

Now to your 8.5% HIV prevalence among 15-44 y/o MSM's. The rest of the sentence from from the HPA report says:

" The prevalence of HIV (both diagnosed and undiagnosed infections) among MSM aged 15-44 was estimated to be 8.5% (range 7.0-10.5%) within London"

In the interest of total honesty, it concludes:

"...3.7% (range 3.1-4.5%) elsewhere in England and Wales and 5.3% (range 4.7-6.1%)overall."

So screw me if you weren't lying yet again. I trusted you on that, I didn't imagine even you would twist a lie out of a simple document like that. You just can't be trusted on anything can you?

So put all that together and you get a figure of 4.7% to 6.1% MSM HIV prevalence in the sexually active age groups which is kind of in the ballpark of the 4% figure that we were all thought was basically realistic - until your prejudices got in the way of whatever common sense you have.

So, that is the 8.5% demolished. I take back my comment that it was "the only true fact you found"

And yes, therefore, you were in fact all lies and hyperbole directed at advancing your prejudices.

And when you get busted for lying and twisting don't you fucking dare to tell me or anyone else that takes you to the cleaners for it:

"None of your frenzied statisticking changes that."

Because you are always claiming that statistics - your statistics - are all that is important, and that people should listen to nothing else. Statistics are the truth, the truth shall set you free - isn't that what you believe and preach?

You excuse all your support of outright bigots by telling us that all you care about is statistical truth.

Keith: "So, it is not ignorant, billious, lying, hyperbole at all, is it Royston.
But your reply was."

Yes, Keith you were ignorant and/or lying and bilious and hyperbolic.

Whereas my reply was ruthlessly accurate and intelligent.

My reply was angry, it was bilious and it displays an enormous prejudice - against you! For very good reason!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 02:18 AM

Oh, hell!! Why not!??

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 01:59 AM

Who wants the double millenium?
My gift to you.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 01:58 AM

Royston, I told you that I let the STI lie pass because I wanted to establish the truth about AIDS first.
It is not all about you. That just changed the perspective of your nasty attacks on straight people.

that ghon. rise would be infinitesimal if it was for the general population. The best survey we have found says MSMs are about 3%.

Around 8.5% of MSMs between ages 15 and 44 are infected.
None of your frenzied statisticking changes that.
We know that a third of all MSMs receiving treatment are over that age.
That is a very large number of people who will eventually die of AIDS, but THOUSANDS more would be in that age group if AIDS had not killed them already.

So, it is not ignorant, billious, lying, hyperbole at all, is it Royston.
But your reply was.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 05:16 PM

Keith: "There have been worrying increases in the number of younger men diagnosed with STIs in the past decade, with more than a doubling of
diagnoses of HIV (from 128 in 1998 to 281 in 2007)"

And when we talked about increases in straight HIV diagnosis from about 200 to 1,300 over the same period, you told us the increase was from infinitessimal to insiginificant - or words to that effect.

Do you remember that Keith? Do you?

This is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 05:06 PM

So when, in order to explain that risky behaviours were common to all sexualities, I pointed to 10% of young women having Chlamydia - which is true - I was 'anti-straight', whatever that means.

Oh, yes, that didn't trouble you when I said, and when other people said it - and more. It only became a live issue for you when I told you I was gay and then suddenly you attack me - and not anyone else that said the same thing - as being 'anti-straight'. And you think that is acceptable? Really? Do you?

When I said that HIV prevalence among gay men appeared to be 4%, I must have been homophobic - given that it appears to be only 1.6% or thereabouts.

So what does that make you, when you said of gay men that their HIV prevalence was:

"Probably 12% to 15% or even 20%
For comparison, the great flu pandemic of 1918 killed 3% of population, and the Great Plague of 1665 killed 15%"

None of which was true - all of which is a lie dreamed up in your twisted little head.

Tell us, Keith. Go on. Carry on.

I haven't had this much sport for ages.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 04:55 PM

Because, Keith, your comment

"Probably 12% to 15% or even 20%
For comparison, the great flu pandemic of 1918 killed 3% of population, and the Great Plague of 1665 killed 15%"

Must be either:

Ignorant,

Ingnorant and prejudiced,

or lying and prejudiced.

You choose, I couldn't care less.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 04:49 PM

Keith you unravelling like this far exceeds my greatest expectations.

But you have gone absolutely mental.

The only true figure you've quoted is that according the the HPA, HIV prevalence rates amongst MSM's 15-44 might be as high as 8.5%

Your comment:

"So well over 10% of MSMs are infected.
Probably 12% to 15% or even 20%"

Is just hyperbole with no support and you need to withdraw it.

We established from this

http://www.avert.org/gay-people.htm

That at least 6.3% of men are MSM's that have had "genital sex". More if you include other forms of sexual contact, and the point of that survey is that numbers identifying and self-reporting as gay keep growing.

I genuinely haven't managed to find a way of removing, say, under 15's from the population statistics to make a totally like for like comparison with the STI/HIV figures that start recording at age 15 upwards - please feel free to do it.

But as a rough indication, if there are 63mm people in the country then should be about 31.5mm men and if at least 6.3% are gay then there are at least 1,984,500 gay men.

Your data here:

http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1203928687610

Says there are an estimated 32,000 MSM that are HIV+, that is an overall prevalence of 1.6%

So, Keith, piss off with your ignorant, lying, bilious attacks on gay men.

Is that clear enough for you?

Keith on Gay men and HIV

"Probably 12% to 15% or even 20%
For comparison, the great flu pandemic of 1918 killed 3% of population, and the Great Plague of 1665 killed 15% "

Like I said, Keith, your implosion has exceeded my wildest expectations.

Bloody fabulous!

GfS, I still have some of your more sensational comments ringing in my ears - you said that you kick out (or words to that effect) when pushed, maybe it stops people from listening to what you were saying before the 'kick'.

When I went back to read the stuff going on when I came into the thread, the really offensive stuff wasn't coming from you, but from Ake. I want to acknowledge that openly. What you were saying about the ex-gay movement and the assumptions that we are all suffering from something that needs to be cured are wrong-minded and do cause offence: but you do not set out to be offensive - until that 'kick' comes.

I have a lot more respect for you and for Ake, who are at least honest (to me) even if I believe you to be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 01:04 PM

Royston: "But the point was not about gay/straight better/worse more/less STI's, it was about the fact that Ake and GfS were wrong to assert - as they did - that homosexual practice was in and of itself causative of the HIV prevalence."

GfS: Actually Royston, my main thrust was that PROMISCUITY was the reason STI's were spreading. Re-read my posts, before commenting on them with inaccuracies.

Keith: "GfS, anything to say about this?"

GfS: Let me review your posts and the exchanges, so I get a better picture, before I post.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 11:18 AM

http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1216022461534
Young men who have sex with men
There have been worrying increases in the number of younger men
diagnosed with STIs in the past decade, with more than a doubling of
diagnoses of HIV (from 128 in 1998 to 281 in 2007) and a threefold
increase of gonorrhoea (339 to 1001) – increases similar to that observed
in older men who have sex with men.
http://www.swish.org.uk/?q=sex_info/stis
Numbers of all STIs have increased in the last few years and some of them, such as Chlamydia, have doubled in the past 6 years, especially amongst young people and gay men.
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/LGBhealth/Pages/Sexualhealthgaymen.aspx
Gary Williams from Birmingham's Healthy Gay Life project

"Gay men should have a check-up at least every six months at a sexual health clinic, because for some infections you will not see any symptoms," says Williams.
http://www.avert.org/stdstatisticuk.htm
Cases of gonorrhea rose steadily from 1999 and peaked in 2002. Since then, the number of new cases has declined. Diagnoses are high among specific groups, such as black ethnic populations and men who have sex with men (MSM).
The UK's syphilis epidemic is largely concentrated among men who have sex with men (MSM),

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 11:00 AM

Don, 8.5% of the 15 to 44 age group are infected.
But it also clearly states that,

By 2007, 32% of all MSM seen for HIV care were aged over 45, and 17% were over 50.

I will give you STI facts with sources Don.
Stand by!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 10:25 AM

""I was not "busted" over the 8.5% figure.
You never even respondes to it!!
They came from the most authoratative source, the HPA!
28 Feb 10 - 07:38 AM

Don T, re your repeated assertion that 96% msms are not infected.
According to HPA
In 2007,    The prevalence of HIV (both diagnosed and undiagnosed infections) among MSM aged 15-44 was estimated to be 8.5% (range 7.0-10.5%)""

And your 8.5 percent is based on age groups 15 to 44.

We have a population now, in which there are more people over 65 than there are under sixteen.

So you take a figure based on nineteen years out of an expected average eighty one, and claim it applies to the whole grouping.

That is total bollocks Keith and I suspect that you know it, and still cynically misrepresent the situation.

Your statements lack any credibility when you insist upon cooking the books to make a point.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 10:14 AM

""Don T, thank you for that figure but it is no help.
Where is it from?
Is it stable or rising?
What is the corresponding figure for MSMs?""

1. Official government figures, also recently reported on by the BBC.
2. Latest figure, as far as I can make out, and if they are reporting on it now, that in itself suggests a rise.
3. You know this already. 4% infected with HIV, which you claim as a homosexual disease, so, presumably a similar situation with other STDs, else HIV would be higher too.

Since these figures are based on percentages of the various groups, MSMs come over as being somewhat safer, wouldn't you say. More especially as there has been NO equivalent to the 500% increase in UK acquired hetero infections.

I suspect, when they stop separating young women, and give figures based on ALL heteros, it will be vastly worse.

This may well be the reason for giving figures only for young females. As I said above, "Where do young heterosexual females acquire their STDs?" Do I hear anyone whispering "Young heterosexual males"?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 09:07 AM

According to you I am a "nasty, bigoted, lying piece of work."
But, unlike you I do not say nasty things.
Unlike you, I have never made a bigoted remark.
Unlike you, I have not resorted to lies.

You would like this debate to be about something else now, but you set the agenda.
You arrived spewing abuse at individuals and at straight people, and crowing gleefully that AIDS had taken off among heterosexuals (LIE), and crowing gleefully that STIs were worse among heterosexuals (LIE).

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 08:54 AM

I was not "busted" over the 8.5% figure.
You never even respondes to it!!
They came from the most authoratative source, the HPA!
28 Feb 10 - 07:38 AM

Don T, re your repeated assertion that 96% msms are not infected.
According to HPA
In 2007,    The prevalence of HIV (both diagnosed and undiagnosed infections) among MSM aged 15-44 was estimated to be 8.5% (range 7.0-10.5%)

By 2007, 32% of all MSM seen for HIV care were aged over 45, and 17% were over 50.
http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1203928687610
So well over 10% of MSMs are infected.
Probably 12% to 15% or even 20%
For comparison, the great flu pandemic of 1918 killed 3% of population, and the Great Plague of 1665 killed 15%

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 08:33 AM

Keith, you carring on like this is absurd.

We already busted you for that 8.5% nonsense because your figures were bogus - they were based on gay men being 1-2% of populations, which was show to be utterly silly.

So - and it was still imperfect - 4% HIV prevalence was accepted apparently for the sake of argument.

But the point was not about gay/straight better/worse more/less STI's, it was about the fact that Ake and GfS were wrong to assert - as they did - that homosexual practice was in and of itself causative of the HIV prevalence.

The way to disprove that assertion is to point out the heterosexual STI prevalence - spread by the same risky behaviours as evidence that practice is not solely responsible for the outcome.

I was angry, I had a tongue in cheek. I stand by my comments totally.

You are a nasty bigotted lying piece of work.

And now everyone knows it.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 07:41 AM

An example of a post of yours that looks different now.
From an 11th Jan post.

"I shows that heterosexually acquired HIV has outstripped homosexually acquired HIV for the entire period - in some years by a factor of at least 3 to 1.
Oh dear Ake, by your rational we now need to do something to control these filthy heterosexual types, don't we? For what do you think heterosexual people are now receiving the AIDS punishment? GfS, anything to say about this?"

You already knew that the rise was simply due to people moving from one country to another.
You also said that it showed Ake to be a liar and a bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 04:04 AM

Your being gay is absolutely not an issue for me, but it puts your anti straight posts in an entirely different perspective than when we assumed you were straight yourself.

The final and best figure I gave for MSMs with AIDS was 8.5% at the most extreme conservative figure. Probably double that.

Chlamydia is symptomless and harmless in men. Not of much interest to MSMs.
I say that for any STI you can think of, MSMs are infected at a much higher rate than straight people.
Do you agree Royston?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 03:05 AM

Keith, the point about that 10% figure - which you accepted - was that amongst sexually active heterosexual goups (which I think you agreed was an appropriate comparison for the MSM statistics) there was a chlamydia rate of 10% and this was higher than the 4% HIV rate for MSM's. Both of those are other people's figures - the 4% was yours, was it not? They are both accepted, aren't they? I am not getting dragged back into nit-picking other people's figures. The government is bombarding us with information about STI's being more prevalent because of the failure to use condoms

Chlamydia (just one such example) is spread by unprotected penetrative sex.

So heterosexual people are not being protected from HIV by their behaviour, are they? The context being that behaviour was being used as a judgement against gay and later against black people.

That is the point, Keith. For most other people there is a point to these discussions.

Is that point wrong?

If behaviour is what defines HIV/STI infection rates between groups, then groups displaying similar and shared behaviours should have the same prevalences of the same diseases, shouldn't they? Well they do display shared, risky behaviours, yet the disease outcomes are different

The point is not that one group behaves "better" or "worse" than the other - the point is the exact opposite, it is to refute that suggestion completely. This it not about gay=bad, straight=good (which is what Ake believes and consistently and honestly argues)

That has been my utterly consistent point all along.

Now that you know I am gay, you can try all you like to spin that 180 degrees - people will draw the only logical conclusion about you for that.

You are proving everthing of which I accused you, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 02:23 AM

Royston, you are resorting to deception to cover your tracks.
Your credibility sinks even further.
"you and Lox argued the toss (no pun intended) over STI rates "

No we did not.
He referred to them and I let it go. (I was determined to establish the truth about AIDS first.)
No one has justified your claims about STIs.
I say they can not be justified.

You quote the first half of my sentence, but make up the second half!
Why not quote the whole sentence? I only said it he same day!
Who is going to be fooled?

Here it is again.
Those early posts of Ake and GFS (it was only Ake in your first attempted excuse!) are robustly put, but they only reference the increased risk of infection which you acknowledge.

We both agree that MSMs have a higher risk, don't we?

Don T, thank you for that figure but it is no help.
Where is it from?
Is it stable or rising?
What is the corresponding figure for MSMs?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 01:39 AM

Don: "Oh! For some bizarre reason, I thought......"

GfS: I believe you on that one!(wink)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 11:00 PM

Oh! For some bizarre reason, I thought you were being serious!

I mean, after all, it's a fair example of the kind of "logic" that you have been using.

Don Firth

P. S. No, I have not memorized all of Pat Paulson's routines. TTFN.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 10:09 PM

Don: "By the way, GfS:   "Hey, 95% of all forest fires are caused by trees, too!"
Isn't that sort of like blaming the window for breaking when someone throws a brick through it?
In matters of cause and effect, it's a good idea to try to figure out which is which."

GfS: By golly, he's ALMOST getting it! Maybe more smelling salts!

Do I have to explain that it is a joke.....used by the late Pat Paulsen? (Used to describe people such as the slow Don F...and their logic(?).

Jeez!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 09:54 PM

In case you missed it, Ake, what you're smelling is the reek of contamination from the contents of GfS's so-called brain. I'm not ever going to go there again! Disgusting!!

By the way, GfS:   "Hey, 95% of all forest fires are caused by trees, too!"

Isn't that sort of like blaming the window for breaking when someone throws a brick through it?

In matters of cause and effect, it's a good idea to try to figure out which is which.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 09:43 PM

Don: "Also, in the vast majority of posts in both that thread and in this one, you indulge in abusing those with whom you disagree and sprinkle your posts with smutty-mouthed personal insults (your latest being to call me a "big mouth maggot liar"—...."

GfS: Speed is a bi-product of accuracy.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 08:10 PM

Good idea Don....there's a westerly blowin tonight and I can smell you from here......don't forget to brush your teeth! :0)