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BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Lox Date: 04 Dec 09 - 04:40 AM Oh yes and Ake, You never answered my question - "Child abuse....81% to 19%?" 81% 0f what and 19% of what? What is this ratio? Where does it come from? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 04 Dec 09 - 04:36 AM Ebbie:"I am embarrassed that Mudcatters are this gullible." Embarrassed?? Well Ebs, I have to agree with you on this one....I'm amazed, myself. A lot of them act like a lynch mob, just looking for anyone ..especially anyone who displays 'reason'! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Lox Date: 04 Dec 09 - 04:26 AM Thanks Ake. I took issue with 2 comments. 1. "Have you actually read the CDC homosexual promiscuity figures?" Neither of your links contains either the word "promiscuity" or the word "promiscuous" 2. "Child abuse....81% to 19%?" Neither of your liinks says anything about homosexuality in relation to child abuse. Both claims remain unsubstantiated slander. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: MGM·Lion Date: 04 Dec 09 - 03:50 AM If there is a God, why did he play that dirty trick on his Chosen People, telling them to turn left when they reached the other side after he had parted the Red Sea for them? If only he had told them to turn right instead, they would have all that oil now, wouldn't they? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Dec 09 - 03:24 AM "Do a smell the stench of rascism here?...." Not necessarily Simon.... the west can be very forgiving (or silent) towards the human rights issues of a country which is the major oil supplier to the Western World - oilism maybe! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 04 Dec 09 - 02:35 AM ""I am not upset by anyones sexuality, but I do get upset when a patently unhealthy lifestyle (both physically and psychologically) is promoted in our schools and society, as safe and healthy"" Another blatant piece of agenda driven misinformation from the king of the misinformed. Our schools do not "promote" homosexuality as normal, or in fact as abnormal. They inform and educate as to its existence, in exactly the way that they inform and educate as to the existence of the outside world, its cultures, religions, and moral perceptives, without ""promoting" acceptance or adherence to any of them. No matter how many times you drag this particular red herring across the trail, you will not make your central premise valid. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Ebbie Date: 04 Dec 09 - 01:50 AM Well, now, that was harsh. I really meant to say that I was surprised that we took the story at face value. If I was embarrassed as well that had more to do with me than with anyone else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Alice Date: 04 Dec 09 - 01:15 AM There was an NPR interview in November regarding the connection. The Family also has other names, including "The Fellowship". link to NPR transcript |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Ebbie Date: 03 Dec 09 - 11:58 PM Good gracious. All along in this thread I had been wishing for some hard evidence of the Family's hand in this and I didn't find it. I followed the link(s)- the Examiner article that was referenced is pure d baloney without more credibility than Beck at his finest. True, it appears that several Ugandan politician belong to the Family and that they are active in espousing the stupid law but that does in no way mean that the Family itself is involved or even agrees. I am embarrassed that Mudcatters are this gullible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Alice Date: 03 Dec 09 - 11:26 PM A good report on the details leading up to this Uganda proposal are on the Rachel Maddow program tonight on MSNBC. The video of that program will not be available until tomorrow. It involves the move under George Bush to change the ABC, (abstinence, be faithful, condoms) program that was working in Uganda to control aids to an Abstinence program, excluding condoms. She covers the history of funds coming from the USA, leading up to this current situation, quite well in her program tonight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Alice Date: 03 Dec 09 - 11:12 PM Well, all I can say is the facts are there that the C Street politicians in The Family have influenced some Uganda politicians to join The Family. The facts are there, no assumptions, and that is behind this proposal of a law in Uganda. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Simon G Date: 03 Dec 09 - 11:02 PM Let try another tack here. I'm just wondering why a legislative proposal in Uganda which doesn't even come from the government is news and yet Saudia Arabia already has much more draconian legislation in place and not a peep about it. On the same vain there is an assumption running through this thread that a bunch of non-descript white guys (Ok so we don't know the Americans are white, but I bet they are in most peoples heads) can influence the government of Uganda. Do a smell the stench of rascism here? Like most sub-saharan countries Uganda is barely hanging on by its finger nails under the pressure of our trade policy, our lack of help with AIDS, our raping the country of their natural resources, our introduction of corrupt practices. We in the West need to start playing fair with Uganda, actually we need to start being generous with them. Perhaps then they won't be tempted to pick on minorites, for picking on minorities is a symptom. Its a symptom of a society under severe pressure. Stacking up the pressure on this issue, global warming and the like simply make the problem worse. Just remember we stacked up the pressure on German in the 1920s and we all know what the result was. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: olddude Date: 03 Dec 09 - 09:32 PM If you learn to hate another group of people and you are a hate monger yourself, then of course it would upset you if our school system is teaching tolerance to others that you don't like ... Our schools cannot teach enough good things about accepting others as far as I am concerned. I am not gay, I am a far from it as one can get ... however, I hear this stuff all the time ... like people are somehow afraid of others with different lifestyles ... last I looked one does not "Catch gay" if that is what you are worried about ... And somehow, gay people are the cause of moral decay in this nation. another lie that is so stupid that it would take 1000 years to respond. People all people, are either good people, or bad people and their sex drive has nothing to do with it. Good or bad lays in the heart of a person. Gay people are not Christians, another absolute stupid statement. I wish I had the faith of some of the gay people I know. How they were made by God has nothing to do with their love for God ... I can't talk anymore ... I am feeding trolls ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Don Firth Date: 03 Dec 09 - 09:14 PM "I don't actually come across anything patently unhealthy being promoted in our schools. I don't think sexuality is something you can promote. It's a natural trait." For some time now, Indonesia has been feeling the negative effects of overpopulation. A friend of mine, who has spent considerable time in Indonesia, says that the Indonesian government has actually been subtly trying to promote homosexual relationships in order to try to diminish the birth rate. My friend tells me that, so far, the effort has failed miserably. As mauvepink says, gender orientation is a "natural trait." And there is considerable evidence of late that it is genetically determined and not simply a matter of choice. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: mauvepink Date: 03 Dec 09 - 08:44 PM Thank you for your quick reply akenaton :-) Nopes: not easily confused unless my blonde genes kick in. Oops! Just another stereotype rattling around in my head ;-) "I am not upset by anyones sexuality, but I do get upset when a patently unhealthy lifestyle (both physically and psychologically) is promoted in our schools and society, as safe and healthy " You see, I don't actually come across anything patently unhealthy being promoted in our schools. I don't think sexuality is something you can promote. It's a natural trait. But then many patently unhealthy lifestyles are out there in society, being shown as safe and healthy, and one only needs to see some of the advertising that promotes it. Being uber thin, drinking strong beers, driving cars at breakneck speeds on open roads and in towns, playing loud folk music through earphones on the latest super bass player! Put simply, I am trying to say there are many things out there that are unsafe and unhealthy and that are for many everyday lifestyle CHOICES. Perhaps we could all be better emplyed trying to change some of those things for the better instead of putting down a group of individuals in society who have no choice for who they are. I fear we may just need to agree to disagree our own feelings on this as I can see you are as likely stuck in your own mould as I am in mine. My position/opinion is as stated and I cannot apologise for that even though it is my choice to hold it. best wishes once again mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: akenaton Date: 03 Dec 09 - 08:29 PM "What really confuses me is why anyone should be upset by anyone else's sexuality unless it directly affects them?" Then you must be very easily confused Mp. I am not upset by anyones sexuality, but I do get upset when a patently unhealthy lifestyle (both physically and psychologically) is promoted in our schools and society, as safe and healthy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: mauvepink Date: 03 Dec 09 - 08:20 PM akenaton... "People like mauvepink and others here, see any discussion of homosexuality and its place in our society as bigotry"... With respect: that what not what I said and it is certainly not what I think. I cannot say what others actually think as I am not blessed with mind reading abilities. There are many discussions about homosexuality, on all sorts of boards and forums, and the most are not bigoted (though bigoted comments can be found quite easily often). I think open discussion, in many things and on many subjects, is a way forward to people understanding others (if they really want to understand at all). As for STI's and all the promiscuity. Well, figures actually also show that this is not just the domain of homosexuals. STI's affect all sexualities, genders and age groups (though some of the horrendous figures actually show up in young, straight females). STI's respect no boundaries if any sex is involved! All I was saying, and I did say it was my opinion and not for everyone, is that homosexuality is just as much a part of human life as is blonde hair, freckles, being straight, and folk music ;-) You do not have to agree with me: that is your right and your choice. But I do believe that being homosexual should have the same rights as those who are straight and that it is not down to choice. I think there is genetic evidence that shows it is not a lifestyle choice for most. If we concentrated more on actual human facts, and stopped blaming people for the genes they get from their parents, we could all be better off. I also somehow think this explanation will hardly satisfy :-( Fact is: I do not see discussion on homosexuality as always being bigoted... perhaps bigots do? I have no idea. What really confuses me is why anyone should be upset by anyone else's sexuality unless it directly affects them? best wishes mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: akenaton Date: 03 Dec 09 - 08:04 PM Why would the CDC or Eurosurveillance wish to lie? Here |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Bill D Date: 03 Dec 09 - 07:54 PM some ought to go find a copy of this old book |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: akenaton Date: 03 Dec 09 - 07:08 PM As MSM, (homosexuals and bisexuals)account for only 2-3% of the population, these figures are indeed "horrendous" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: akenaton Date: 03 Dec 09 - 07:04 PM I'll just post a few figures, as you seem to be unable to locate them CDC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Lox Date: 03 Dec 09 - 06:31 PM Ah now here we go ... an expose about the health Risks associated with being Gay ... ... at www.catholiceducation.org ... I wonder if these are the same Catholics who are seemingly populated by sexually repressed closet Gay Paedophiles? I'd Love to know .... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Lox Date: 03 Dec 09 - 06:19 PM Gosh -this CDC site really is interesting ... look what I found ... In This link, I discovered the following: "The data also show that nongay-identified MSM are less likely than gay men to practice safer sex (CDC, 1993)." Gosh. Still nothing on promiscuity though ... ... best keep looking ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Lox Date: 03 Dec 09 - 06:01 PM OK, I've just been to the CDC site and found that they tended to investigate trends according to the following classifications: Age, Gander, Race ... no metion of sexual preference ... ... I did however find that the highest rates of STD suffering were in Teenage Girls and the next highest were young adult women ... (Must be all those closet paedophile Gays who'll shag anything ... they did it) There was also plenty of information about differences in sexual health for different races. Minorities were found to be hit the hardest. I wonder if racial minorities are closet paedophiles too .... I think we should be told ... Hmmmmmmm .............. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Lox Date: 03 Dec 09 - 05:45 PM "Have you actually read the CDC homosexual promiscuity figures?" Have you been to any nightclub in the lsat 50 years? "Child abuse....81% to 19%?" 81% to 19% of what? And where does this information come from? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: akenaton Date: 03 Dec 09 - 05:21 PM Are you for real? Have you actually read the CDC homosexual promiscuity figures? Child abuse....81% to 19%? Do you think I take any pleasure in quoting the figures for new Aids cases, promiscuity,etc? If you do, you are indeed a lost cause! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Lox Date: 03 Dec 09 - 05:11 PM I take a deep breath and think "OK, lets give this a chance. Then I read: "promiscuity figures which point multiple sexual partners" Promiscuity being limited to Gay People of course ... ... and in "straight" clubs all over the country the boys and girls are all dropping down on one knee and proposing Marriage to their one and only sexual partber for life (only after marriage of course) and are all forming long nurturing relatonships with a view to procreating and getting a family going to which they are remaining loyal and faithful ... "a statistical link to child abuse" Because all Homosexuals are closet paedophiles. Besides which, the statistics referred to only show that if you intend to interpret them to show that from the outset. In fact they show something else, as was clearly pointed out in a previous thread, with no contest from the statistician who posted them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 03 Dec 09 - 05:01 PM ""Whether a Christian, Jew or a Hindu, Muslim, being more devout to one's religion makes him/her more opposed to homosexual practices, So no God means homosexuals are safe."" Sorry ToeRag, but that's the biggest blooper you've managed yet. Are you seriously saying that all gay bashers are religious zealots, and there are no atheists who oppose homosexuality? What planet are you from? There is no logical connection between the Ugandan situation an religion per se. This is entirely about fundamentalism (with the accent on the "mental"), bigotry, and hatred. None of these are related to genuine religious feeling, but spring from an intense loathing of the "different, the "other". Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: akenaton Date: 03 Dec 09 - 04:51 PM Astro .....I've been reading all the bullshit and cosy rhetoric about different ways of living and loving, how homosexuality is genetic not behavioural and how its not really sexual at all, but just pure luuuuve, like we used to see in the movies. I wasn't even going to bother to respond to the "feelgood sisterhood" but when I read your post I saw sincerity and clear sightedness. I agree with your thoughts on this thread and the agendas of many who have posted here. I also agree that we should be putting our efforts into helping those who suffer, not punishing them. To start helping to solve a problem, it is important to understand that there is a problem to begin with. People like mauvepink and others here, see any discussion of homosexuality and its place in our society as bigotry, but blinding ourselves to the problems associated with homosexuality is much worse, it condemns homosexuals to the lifestyle they have at present.....horrendous health and life expectancy statistics, promiscuity figures which point multiple sexual partners and a statistical link to child abuse, in the surveys on child abuse in the Catholic church. These are real problems which need to be addressed in the way homosexuals in Los Angeles are dealing with the dreadful link to hiv/aids, facing up to the figures,accepting that there is a problem and attempting to find out why the problems exist. No sane person wants to see fellow humans suffer, no matter what their sexual practices are and closing our eyes to what is actually happening around us helps no one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Lox Date: 03 Dec 09 - 04:50 PM Paul, your OP insinuates that Homophobes and Christians are synonymous terms. If that was not your intention it could be a good idea to clarify that point and to apologize to those christians who are not homophobes who may have been offended or hurt by their reasonable inferrence of your motives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: ToeRag Date: 03 Dec 09 - 04:25 PM Is this God talking those who feel homosexual impulses "perhaps aren't guilty, but by acting against the dignity of the body they will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Paul Burke Date: 03 Dec 09 - 04:19 PM The whole purpose of this thread was not to show a concern for the gay Ugandans, but rather to impose a red herring to draw out those who hate religion (Christianity for certain) and those who may support such hideous laws. No it wasn't (I should know). It was to show concern for gay Ugandans, and hopefully to draw enlightened Christians to oppose the vile machinations of their supposed co- religionists. What it did, sadly, was to expose the raw nerve and drive some people into denial. As I pointed out earlier, thinking Christians have more in common with atheists than with certain varieties of fundamentalists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Lox Date: 03 Dec 09 - 04:06 PM "Descartes said "I think, therefore I am." So in that sense god does exist." er ... nearly ... What he actually said was that after he had stripped away all the things which he couldn't assert to be true with 100% surety, (i.e anything perceived by his senses) all that was left was his mind. "I am; I think" Was the only thing he could not find grounds to doubt. He does not argue that talking about the notion of himself makes him exist, he points out that at the end of his discourse, he is left with "I In all cases, as long as I This has no bearing on any external thing such as God. He did try to go on to argue that God exists, but not on those grounds. His thoughts and observations require the existence of "I" to occur. "I think God exists" is not subjective to God but is still subjective to "I". Likewise with "I talk about God and therefore cause the idea of him to exist" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Dec 09 - 04:03 PM "should not only be opposed by individuals but also opposed (more importantly) by governments. Aid, trade, allowed travel from these countries should be stopped until these laws are dropped.">>> writes Astro above. An attractive argument; but it has always been a principle in diplomacy among nations that 'internal affairs' must be left to develop as the governments concerned see fit. We continue to maintain diplomatic relations & to trade with, e.g., SaudiArabia, who stoned a Princess [no less] to death for adultery not long since; regularly publicly amputate the hands of thieves; publicly flog blasphemers & fornicators of both sexes; behead those who abandon the faith··· Governments, by longstanding convention, do not interfere or sanction in such instances. How shall Uganda's proposed new laws be treated any differently without invidiousness? This is not to imply that I don't think their proposals appalling. I do. But it seems to me that the situation is not as simple as many might wish, & these points need to be made. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: olddude Date: 03 Dec 09 - 03:51 PM Astro makes an excellent point, I would suggest that everyone that is in the USA write Hillary and let your voice be heard via the gov website. Hillary is a good person and good soul. Others contact your state departments. If you want a direct path PM me but you will need to include your full contact info and phone. I can get it to her direct. It is only when good people say enough that this stuff can be over come. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: olddude Date: 03 Dec 09 - 03:40 PM The new testament is a book of unrestricted, compassion, hope and love, anyone calling themselves Christian or people of faith that don't see it are following a church leader, a false path, and not the teachings. One passage that sums it all up words of Jesus " when you do to the least of my breathrens you do it to me" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: GUEST,astro Date: 03 Dec 09 - 03:39 PM This religious discussion is very tired and old...and not important, what is important is the idea of countries imposing death penalties upon life style issues and should not only be opposed by individuals but also opposed (more importantly) by governments. Aid, trade, allowed travel from these countries should be stopped until these laws are dropped. The whole purpose of this thread was not to show a concern for the gay Ugandans, but rather to impose a red herring to draw out those who hate religion (Christianity for certain) and those who may support such hideous laws. To me, a man of faith and a scientist, this is a tawdry method of discussion and is pretty sad. In all arenas, science or religion or business or politics or sports or..., you will find people of low opinion or ethics. To paint all in any arena by the lowest common denominator is just plain wrong and points to an agenda. I know that in science, there are no good reasons to point to any population for special punishments while in religion I do know that when asked, Christ noted the greatest commandment was to love God with all you heart and soul and then closely the second greatest commandment was to love you neighbor as yourself. Those who cry Christ, Christ are not necessarily ones who follow Christ. You can tell by their actions. Calling for hate is a sure sign that they are not. So, get the focus right, there are those out there who are suffering and those who want to make them suffer. Help those who are suffering and oppose those who want to make them suffer. It is simple as that, any other discussion is just smoke and blows away....and points that in truth they really don't care about those who are suffering...only to win the point. Which, in fact, was the whole agenda in the first place. astro in LA |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: ToeRag Date: 03 Dec 09 - 02:12 PM Whether a Christian, Jew or a Hindu, Muslim, being more devout to one's religion makes him/her more opposed to homosexual practices, So no God means homosexuals are safe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: mauvepink Date: 03 Dec 09 - 01:52 PM Dear God, please confirm what I believe THAT is not only interestering but also frightening. It is also the third most popularly read article on "New Scientist" " today Interesting in that I have found whenever I try to reason an omnipotent, loving God should be able to "do this, see that, help this, avoid that" I get told not to try and figure the mind of God. I am reminded I am human and can have no understanding of God's great plan. Frightening because if people create God's laws "in their own image", so to speak, then is boils down to using God as a scapegoat for evil doings, thereby never having to take responsibility for wrongful, terrible actions. Forgiveness, therefore, is all about who you can blame the bad act upon and, if it's God, then how can we possibly understand? My simple brain now hurts so I am going out to listen to some great live folk music courtesy of a local Folk Club! mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: ToeRag Date: 03 Dec 09 - 01:44 PM Gays Won't Go to Heaven: Cardinal, IslamOnline.net & Newspapers . http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1258880717525&pagename=Zone-English-News/NWELayout |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Penny S. Date: 03 Dec 09 - 12:47 PM There is a piece in New Scientist today about some research carried out in America on how people perceive the ideas held by God as compared with those they have themselves, those held by other Americans and a few other groups. These ideas were selected from a variety of topics, but I expect you can guess which ones. What happened was that it turned out that those researched felt that God had the same opinions they did, while these might diverge from those held by the other groups. The researchers then asked the subjects to develop an argument in favour of the opposite view from that they held themselves, for instance on the death penalty. They found that the subjects tendeed to change their own view on the subject, but also believed that God's opinion was different, while that they attributed to others had not changed. Which means that, unless it is possible to get the proponents of the death penalty to argue against it, there isn't a hope in the hot place of getting them to accept that God does not want death for his children, or that they are not the real Christians. They will see those who oppose them as the not Christians. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: olddude Date: 03 Dec 09 - 10:12 AM What amazes me is people think this has something truly to do with Religion, It doesn't It has to do with hate and the masks evil people use to divided and spread their hate. Your hatred for people of faith makes you a victim falling into their hands. Painting with a broad brush to generalize people without the least bit of understanding what faith is. Hitler was very successful in convincing the whole of Germany that all evils that befell the German people were cause by the Jews. Use whatever popular mask to spread the hate. That is what hate does. Church groups that do amazing wonderful things, never get the press never, only the hate groups that use the false label of Christian get the press so everyone like many here can blame and generalize the "Christians" are the cause of it all. And many of the TV guys get their evil press by preaching hate knowning nothing of God. True Christian people are easy targets ... and it amazes me how so many people buy into the message without the least bit of understanding. Go ahead and label, but from my perspective. If you wish to make a true change in the world, if you want to make life better for everyone. Do what I try to do every day. "FIND THE HATE THAT LIVES IN OURSELVES" WHATEVER THAT HATE MAYBE AND GET RID OF IT. then and only then can we try to remove the hate from others. Hate is in all forms, people who say the immigrants are taking our jobs, the minorities are crossing over to take our land. Yada yada, all hate all of it wrong, now it is the Christians are trying to kill people .... fact is evil is evil pure and simple, any means especially popular ones will be used to justify evil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: ToeRag Date: 03 Dec 09 - 08:46 AM My point is, God does not exist, so no need for the bible belt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie Date: 03 Dec 09 - 08:08 AM ToeRag does make one interesting point. God does exist. As a concept. Descartes said "I think, therefore I am." So in that sense god does exist. God exists as ever, as an instrument for helping the few domineer the many. T'was ever thus. I reckon that if you got rid of religion, you would have to invent it anyway. Look at the countries where religion was banned. It was banned so it didn't compete with the state system to gain the same end. ie., fodder for the masses. ToeRag isn't quite so accurate with the idea of no god, no missionaries. We would have missionaries, but their role would be pushing state propaganda. About time these idiots from the bible belt (aka Dumbfuckistan) realised that the vast majority of people may not be able to say whether there is a god or not, but at least most people know the so called moral code extracted from scripture is flawed, irrelevant and in places downright disgusting. (ie the cause of debate in this thread.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Dec 09 - 07:39 AM I think you are metaphysically confused TR — the problem is not God as such, but the question as to the actual existence of such an entity. But I leave this topic now as my head begins to spin. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: ToeRag Date: 03 Dec 09 - 07:19 AM No god no American Evangelical missionaries. so God seems to be the problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Dec 09 - 07:05 AM Sorry Toerag - cannot begin to understand the point you are making. Could you perhaps expound it a little further & with more clarity? Why should the fact that we are having this conversation in any way presuppose or indicate the existence of the Deity in whom it appears you believe but I don't? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: ToeRag Date: 03 Dec 09 - 07:01 AM If God did not exist... would we be having this conversation about Uganda, debating a law which would criminalise homosexuality, including the death penalty in some circumstances. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Dec 09 - 05:23 AM I'm a lifelong Catholic, and I've worked in the Catholic Church all my life - so I know the situation in the American Catholic Church quite well. Despite the official stand against homosexual sex, most priests and nuns I know are very sympathetic to the concerns of homosexuals. And it seems to me that most Catholic lay people and bishops have attitudes that are far more rigidly opposed to homosexuals. Many Catholic priests and nuns aren't particularly pleased about the idea of anti-homosexual Anglicans joining the Catholics. It's a dilemma that's not as easily resolved as one might think. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie Date: 03 Dec 09 - 04:35 AM I reckon Mauvepink does have a point. (In the abstract, but let's not get picky.) However, and please, anybody, help me understand this; If I felt so strongly about a religious creed and genuinely believed the unambiguous message of love, forgiveness, turning the other cheek and reaching out to those we don't understand... I reckon I would be at the forefront of demanding that "leaders" of my faith denounce fundamentalist hijackers of the message, and would have huge problems being associated with the institutional bigotry; not only this extreme example but the softer ones such as vicars wanting to take communion with Catholics because their brand of homophobia and lack of women doing the job suits some so called representatives of the "good news." You see, whilst ever religions can ignore equal rights legislation (that should affect their status as charities and as employers) I have HUGE issues with them trying to give society a steer. I really do. Mind you, I can't be a hypocrite. Even if they did join the 21st Century, I don't need an abstract concept to give me a moral steer. I watched David Attenborough's Life series and was fascinated by the altruism and community based behaviour of other animals, such as insects, reptiles, fish, furry mammals and even microscopic organisms. Some of which have never heard a sermon or read the bible...... |
