BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 10:30 AM

I bet there were a few paranoid tinfoil hat people around in the 20's too...claiming that a nondescript little failed painter with a big mouth, a chip on his shoulder, and a silly little mustache would someday lead a few ragtag fanatics into a huge political movement that would take over Germany, conquer most of Europe, set up mass exterminations of minorities, and cause the most devastating war in history...

These fools and their ridiculous conspiracy theories. As if anything like that could ever happen!

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 08:40 AM

Yup - The publication of a wholly-owned subsidiary of the paranoid tinfoil hat brigade.

Brings Barney Frank to mind: What planes do they spend most of their time on?

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 11:32 PM

I'm just putting this here for those who are interested. Anyone who has difficulty coping with this sort of thing should just not read it...

http://world911truth.org/bombshell-silverstein-wanted-to-demolish-building-7-on-911/

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: ichMael
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 11:29 PM

Oh, Cheney knew. Secretary of Transportation at the time, Norman Minetta, told congress about Cheney letting a plane reach its target. Minetta was in the bunker with Cheney. In my opinion, this story is the most under-reported in the WORLD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO-9LQDFE2Y

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: LadyJean
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 11:15 PM

Now if you want to tell me that Dick Cheyney knew the attacks were coming and let them happen, I'll believe you. I wouldn't put anything past that man. He's the kind of person who gives rat bastards a bad name.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: ichMael
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 09:36 PM

Here's something new:

Senior Bush administration officials sternly cautioned the 9/11 Commission against probing too deeply into the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, according to a document recently obtained by the ACLU.

The notification came in a letter dated January 6, 2004, addressed by Attorney General John Ashcroft, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and CIA Director George J. Tenet. The ACLU described it as a fax sent by David Addington, then-counsel to former vice president Dick Cheney....

"In response to the Commission's expansive requests for access to secrets, the executive branch has provided such access in full cooperation," the letter read. "There is, however, a line that the Commission should not cross -- the line separating the Commission's proper inquiry into the September 11, 2001 attacks from interference with the Government's ability to safeguard the national security, including protection of Americans from future terrorist attacks."....

"The Commission staff's proposed participation in questioning of detainees would cross that line," the letter continued. "As the officers of the United States responsible for the law enforcement, defense and intelligence functions of the Government, we urge your Commission not to further pursue the proposed request to participate in the questioning of detainees."....

9/11 Commission members Thomas Kean and Lee H. Hamilton wrote that although US President George W. Bush had ordered all executive branch agencies to cooperate with the probe, "recent revelations that the CIA destroyed videotaped interrogations of Qaeda operatives leads us to conclude that the agency failed to respond to our lawful requests for information about the 9/11 plot."

http://rawstory.com/2010/03/revealed-ashcroft-tenet-rumsfeld-warned-911-commission-line-should-cross/

We've always known the Commission was cautioned, but here's the smoking gun letter.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: ichMael
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 11:01 PM

WTC Towers did NOT fall because of fire

A new page I just uploaded. Also, I pared down the one below so it's more to the point.

9/11 Truthers are being set up for a fall

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 08:02 PM

Correction:

If you can't prove your point using science, make fun of them and demonize those who can.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 07:59 PM

Don't forget "straw man", LH.

LOL. If you can't prove your point using science, make fun of them and demonize them. That's the same tactic the church used when people started using science to question the doctrine that the earth was the center of the universe. Some people never learn.

Please repeat after me...

SCIENCE IS OUR FRIEND


Those of you who want to continue to cling to superstition are just making yourselves look silly. And I would imagine it would start to get a little sweaty under those tin foil hats of yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 06:46 PM

just got some good links to the Calgary conference this past Tues..
Splitting the Sky and Cynthia McInney... maybe Lizzie will post them

don't let the bastards grind you down...

or as the RCMP once said 'Smear tactics are our specialty' from backroom footage of one of their planning sessions concerning the Gustafsen Lake stand-off...

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 04:42 PM

Oh, YEAH!!! ;-)

Okay, let's see...

That was...

17. Change Subject

and...

18. Antagonize

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 02:59 PM

300

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 02:59 PM

I got some real truth for all of you................

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Confere
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 02:53 PM

No, LH, actually it's number 1, truth.   Didn't you recognize it?   I'm surprised--you're usually so perceptive.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 02:02 PM

Ah....that's number 5. (Ridicule)

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Confere
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 01:02 PM

I haven't read this entire wonderful thread, but just on a cursory glance, it seems Carol and ichMael have left out a few of the obvious culprits:   the Illuminati, the Masons, the Bilderberg Group and Opus Dei.   And please don't forget "The Protocols of the
Elders of Zion".   I mean that one predicted the whole thing, didn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: ichMael
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 01:00 PM

Thank you, Al. Your picture just came back from the developers.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: GUEST,Al Kyder
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 12:31 PM

Friends in truth, ichMael and Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: ichMael
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 08:47 AM

Logged out, made an entry as GUEST that'll be deleted. Here it is again:

Yeah. Blaming Bush. He was holding a freakin' goat-story book upside down in a classroom in Florida at the time. He's the fall guy. The patsy, if things ever get that far.

We need to stop the partisanship. 9/11 wasn't a Democrat or a Republican job. It wasn't even a job carried out by our representative government. It was carried out by our 'shadow government.' The one initiated by Roosevelt/Truman and named 'the military-industrial complex' by Eisenhower. The CIA did 9/11. In cooperation with the British and Israeli intelligence agencies.

BUT, the president has the power to investigate. Congress has the power to investigate. Bush did his bit and sealed his fate. He DEFINITELY became part of the crime by going along with the coverup. And now Obama's part of the crime through inactivity.

9/11 isn't a political issue. It's a crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 08:10 AM

What he's making a case for is not what one might think from reading the quote, though. He's saying that the Bush administration and the Pentagon were not forthcoming about their behavior during the attacks and afterwards, but from the standpoint that they weren't sufficiently addressing the threat of al Qaeda.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: ichMael
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 07:57 AM

Carol, you say, "...I don't think he is saying what one might think he's saying if one reads those quotes from him out of context."

None of that stuff is out of context. The Commissioners said those things. What's left out is the petty partisan bickering. Some of those people were convering for Bush and some wanted to blame him.

Party politics is stopping progress on this issue even now. A lot of people mistakenly think they have something to gain by not dragging Obama into the 9/11 situation.

Fact, the Kean Commissioners said they were lied to and were misled. Fact, Obama refuses to address the issue. Fact, Obama is now part of the coverup crime and subject to trial and execution, same as the Bush people.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 07:02 AM

By the way, there is no evidence that the guy in that one video is bin Laden. It doesn't look anything like him, and other than that one video, bin Laden has consistently denied responsibility for the attacks on 9/11. The FBI doesn't even include bin Laden on their list of most wanted for 9/11, because they don't have any evidence that he was involved. That one's a non-starter.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 01:11 AM

ichMael, I just listened to part of an interview with Lee Hamilton on an old Charley Rose show, and I don't think he is saying what one might think he's saying if one reads those quotes from him out of context. I don't think what you're trying to do is very well served by using those quotes from the 9/11 Commissioners.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 12:37 AM

You're still speculating though, LadyJean, and that's not proof. The only way we can get something even resembling proof is to conduct a forensic investigation. Right now, not only do we not have any proof, we don't even have any evidence that things happened the way the official story claims they happened. And we don't even have a full explanation of what happened in the official story from the government. For instance, in order for the buildings to have fallen from fire or airplanes crashing into them, it would need to be possible for this to happen. The government hasn't got any explanations of how the twin towers could have fallen, or even any evidence that was possible for fire or airplane crashes to cause them to fall, whereas we have a lot of evidence that this would not be possible.

People use the way Bush behaved as evidence that he was aware of what was going to happen ahead of time as well. Nobody would accept that as evidence of a government conspiracy, and they would be right not to. We shouldn't accept it as evidence that the governments story is correct, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: LadyJean
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 12:14 AM

I remember thinking on 9/11, Those Bastards! They've just given George W a second term! I also remember hoping that there would be a good thorough investigation of the events of the day, since I knew that conspriacy theories would sprout like mushrooms in the days to come.
I have heard them before. I have heard all about how the CIA killed Kennedy, and the Kennedys kille Marilyn Monroe, and a number of notorious dead people are still alive. I once saw a television documentary, meant for children, about Lincoln's assasination, that made it clear that Secretery Stanton was behind it all. (Yes, I know that is extremely unlikely.)
I also have heard about a good many conspiracies, like Watergate. They just couldn't keep that one quiet. Or the coup in Chile, couldn't keep that under wraps. I learned in seventh grade history class that the Spanish didn't blow up the Maine. Conspiracies are tough things to hide. Which is why I am always skeptical when someone talks about a conspiracy.
One of the things that makes me skeptical about 9/11 is the way Bush and Cheney conducted themselves that day. Bush was with a class full of first graders, reading about a goat. He is either a world class actor, or he was genuinely bewildered. He gave us an uninspired speech, then disappeared for the rest of the day. (I suspect he spent much of it worsipping the porcelain god, but never mind.) Dick Cheney was conspicuous by his absence, hiding in a bunker. You'd think, if they knew it was coming they'd make themselves look more heroic.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 11:34 PM

This part right here (from the transcript of the NOVA program) is a lie...

But the tall vertical columns of the inner core and outer walls were like freestanding stilts until Robertson tied them together with floor trusses.

They're calling the core columns "freestanding stilts". This it totally proven false by all of the physical evidence. They're lying, and they're doing it for a reason. If they didn't have something to hide, they wouldn't be lying.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: ichMael
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 11:31 PM

Oh yeah, the Nova show was gutted long ago. Been a while since I've watched TV, but isn't Nova aired on PBS? That's government-funded, so of course they'd run a pseudo-science show shifting suspicion away from the government.

Anyway, I've learned from the government believers on this thread that the core had little to no role in holding up the towers. It was the outer shell that provided support. So, if I cut my skin, then my skeleton will fail? Learn something new every day.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/wtc2_firefighters.html

9/11 Radio Transmissions
of WTC 2 Firefighters

contains the final transmissions made by firefighters located in the aircraft impact area of WTC 2 (floors 77 and 78). Floor 78 was officially being ravaged by an 800ºC inferno at this time.

The transmissions document that only isolated pockets of fire were reported by the firefighters, so where was the all-consuming inferno?

Also of note is the fact that these transmissions were made seconds before WTC 2's collapse. There were supposedly massive structural failings occurring in this section of the building at this time yet no mention is made of this. The firefighters should have been screaming "the building's coming down, everybody get out!", instead they are calmly preparing to move up to the 79th floor.

Battalion Seven Chief: "Battalion Seven ... Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor numerous 10-45 Code Ones."

Ladder 15: "Chief, what stair you in?"

Battalion Seven Chief: "South stairway Adam, South Tower."

Ladder 15: "Floor 78?"

Battalion Seven Chief: "Ten-four, numerous civilians, we gonna need two engines up here."

Battalion Seven Chief: "Tower one. Battalion Seven to Ladder 15.

Fifteen."

Battalion Seven Chief: "I'm going to need two of your firefighters Adam stairway to knock down two fires. We have a house line stretched we could use some water on it, knock it down, kay."

Ladder 15: "Alright ten-four, we're coming up the stairs. We're on 77 now in the B stair, I'll be right to you."

Battalion Seven Operations Tower One: "Battalion Seven Operations Tower One to Battalion Nine, need you on floor above 79. We have access stairs going up to 79, kay."

Battalion Nine: "Alright, I'm on my way up Orio."

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 11:26 PM

In criminal investigations, lying about evidence is itself considered to be evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 11:20 PM

The NOVA program completely falsified the nature of the core structure, and all of the physical evidence (photographs, videos, and blueprints) proves that. What the NOVA program describe happening could not have happened with the way the buildings were actually constructed. They were lying, pure and simple. Which raises the question of why there were lying. Obviously they were trying to cover something up.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:52 PM

I remember seeing the NOVA program how the towers fell, which covers the outside support vertical structure AND the inside vertical structure.
One rather unique feature to the WTC buildings was that the outer and inner structure allowed the floor beams to be rather long and supported, like bridges at either end. What this also means is that BOTH ends must be supported, the outer structure is as important as the inner structure. It is impossible for the floor beams to exist supported at one end ONLY.
In any case, the progress of the flaming jet debris took out a large section of both outer and inner supports, also stripping much insulation from around the supports, making them more vulnerable to the heat of the fire that ultimately weakened the vertical support structure critically.

So, there is no denial in this publicly aired TV show of any part of the WTC structure.
It is obvious that the inner structure alone would not support the floors without outer structure to hold up the other end of the beams, that kind of structure would be called 'cantilevered' and this was not.
The heat of the fire weakened enough of the metal in the impacted area to allow the top part of the building to collapse as a pile driver onto the rest and start a cascade of pancaking floors.

(This is also where some of the folks who claim the towers collapsed too fast for physics. they are ignoring the fact that the collapse started not from the top but from the weakened area).

And finally, about a month after the coalition went into Afghanistan they recovered a tape of Osama taking full credit for the deed, and telling his buds that the total collapse of the structures was something they hoped for but it was mostly a lucky, forgive me, 'break'.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:15 PM

Ok. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: ichMael
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 09:53 PM

Let me just scroll down, Carol...ah, yes, the CBC and his book Without Precedent.

I sourced everything, but I don't really like links. It's so easy to search on the internet now. I mean, look at Joe Offer. I could get Lee Hamilton to scream the information in his ear and Joe would still say, "Were there coverups? Oh, I suppose there were - but nothing of any significance." Why do legwork for people like that? They wouldn't click on the links anyway. 9//1 wasn't significant enough. Just face it--those people are goners.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 09:43 PM

ichMael, do you have any sources for the Lee Hamilton quote other than copy/pastes in blogs? I've been looking and I can't find one.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: ichMael
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 09:33 PM

A Tale of Two Conspiracies

Thank you folks for the inspiration.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 01:49 AM

You're playing a little loose with the facts, ichMael. You misquoted the article you cited. The article says that 6 of 10 Keane commissioners claimed that Bush Administration officials gave them false information - that's common knowledge.

Yes, I'm sure there are mistakes and discrepancies in the Keane report, but it appears to me that the report is basically sound and factual. I suppose that in the interest of full disclosure, I should say that I spent 25 years as an investigator for the Federal Government, and another 3 years in intelligence. I came to expect not to get the whole truth from politically appointed officials, but that simply motivated me to dig deeper. I'm very sure that the 9/11 incidents were fully investigated - and that the investigations are still going on. Were there coverups? Oh, I suppose there were - but nothing of any significance. And besides, the legitimate press serves as a good counterbalance, to keep the government investigators honest. There was no way that I wanted a newspaper reporter to uncover something I missed.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Royston
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 01:22 AM

IchMael,

That blog story is about the controversy over the Pentagon's reaction to the attacks on the day in question. It implicitly touches on the controversial - but plausible - view that The Pentagon *might* have reacted in weak way deliberately.

It does not support any of the bollocks that you have been mumbling about. Not a word of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: ichMael
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 09:45 PM

http://jayinreallife.wordpress.com/2010/02/16/6-out-of-10-of-the-official-911-commissioners-on-record-discuss-how-the-government

6 out of 10 of the Keane commissioners said their report was a fraud. So you CHOOSE to believe a lie?

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 09:42 PM

Actually, yes. All these conspiracy theories are so much hogwash, ichMael.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: ichMael
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 09:28 PM

So do you support the Keane Commission report, Joe?

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 09:25 PM

...and YOUR incredible opinion is rather frightening, ichMael.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 09:25 PM

ichMael, do you honestly think that the government only just now started using the internet for its psyops? Really?

The only way to fight back against that kind of thing is to not be the stereotypes they're using as their ammo against reasonable requests.   Because it doesn't matter how many times you tell them they are using disinformation method number whatever, if they are able to define how others see you, they have succeeded in doing what they set out to do.

Personally, I think I'm getting a lot more done with my approach than you ever will. You're only preaching to the choir. I'm talking to everyone. I understand the sense of urgency you have about things, but you are not accomplishing what you think you are accomplishing, and you're making it more difficult for others to do what needs to be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: ichMael
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 09:04 PM

Obama/Sunstein are now institutionalizing mole work, Carol--going into forums like this in order to negate "conspiracy theorists." Sunstein and Obama want to "BAN" conspiracy theorists. There'll be a BOUNTY on your head next.

I'm just sick of thumbsuckers. Mollycoddle them all you want. In the end they'll still turn you in for the bounty. The blow to the solar plexus is the way to go. At least they'll remember that when they're kicked out of their homes and sucking their thumbs in a ditch.

But your opinion's noted and appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 08:10 PM

Personally, I think you're making a very big mistake, ichMael. There's a lot of people who haven't formed a solid opinion on the subject, and I can tell you, if my first introduction to the subject was the kind of stuff you post, I would be pretty turned off, too. You're shutting people down who don't need to be shut down, and you're losing allies, unnecessarily.

I don't have a link to the actual document in which the people at NIST admit that they can't explain what happened, but you can see it in this video. I'm guessing if you email the people at this site, they might forward you a scanned copy of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: ichMael
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 07:46 PM

Carol...

Regarding September 11--people have had their minds made up for them by television, or by that pension they're protecting, or by fear of public opinion. I mean, SIX OF THE TEN Keane commisioners said their 9/11 report was bogus. If some chowderhead can't internalize that and get pissed off, then he's as good as dead. And kicking a dead man around won't hurt him. Maybe you get better results with finesse, but the steel-toed approach seems to work pretty well for me.

9 years since 9/11, and now Obama and Cass Sunstein are going to launch corps of people into the social networking internet system to bicker with "conspiracy theorists." Man.

SIX OF THE TEN Keane commissioners said the report they generated about 9/11 is a FRAUD, people! Maybe you still want to put the whole thing off on Bush, but now OBAMA'S approved of the crime by DOING NOTHING. If YOU AND I know that the Keane Commission admitted that it generated junk, then Obama knows. So, where's the action? Where's the "change?"

Anyway, do you have a NIST link similar to the Keane link I posted, Carol? I need to start posting the most damaging NIST link I can along with the Keane link. With those two legs cut out from under the govt's arguments, it should be pretty easy to make people see that they're believing a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 11:40 PM

I mean you don't have to establish what did happen. At this point in time, you only have to establish what didn't happen, and let science sort the rest out. We know, for instance, that NIST admits that they didn't establish an explanation for how the towers fell. The government does not officially have an explanation for what made it possible for, or what caused the towers to fall. That's all we really need in order to have a very credible case for insisting on a new investigation.

We know two things. We know that the government has not established the cause of the collapse. We also know that much of the evidence points to other possible causes. As of now, we don't need to know anything else. All we have to do is insist on a thorough, scientific investigation, the results of which are subjected to vigorous peer review. Science will give us the answers. And by science, I mean forensic science. This was a crime, and it should be investigated exactly the way crimes are investigated. This was never done.

But when people try to persuade others of their ideas about did happen, those people make it really easy for anyone who wants to shut down discussion to do this by diverting attention away from what is important, which is that the government does not have an explanation for what happened and the fact that there is enough evidence of possibilities that have not been pursued or investigated by the government to justify a new investigation, and divert the attention to you and all of the labels that they want to apply to you. Labeling you is easy for them, because they see you as a caricature, not as a person.   And that is a big part of the problem. If people can label you, they will find it really easy to shut you out and shut down discussion, because the discussion then becomes all about what they think of you instead of what happened on 9/11.

So trying to get peoples' attention by behaving in ways that they may find extreme and disturbing will not work. They'll just shut down discussion with their personal attacks. And as a consequence, they also make things difficult for anyone who advocates for a new investigation, because they will lump them all in with the people like you whom they have already labeled and dismissed in their minds. So you not only make it more difficult for yourself, you also make it more difficult for everyone who is trying to get a new investigation.

Obviously there are some who are so threatened by any discussion of other possibilities that anyone at all who advocates for a new investigation will seem extreme to them. But there are a lot of people who aren't so entrenched in their beliefs, and you don't want to be shutting those people down. That is a mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: ichMael
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 10:54 PM

Okay. Logged back in. Still figuring this out.

You mean the stuff at the link, Carol? About Obama? That's all valid, but I didn't paste it onto this thread because it's not really germane to the discussion here.

The man's a monster. But I go easier on him than I did on G.W. Bush. I watched Bush wreck my state before he went on to do the same to the U.S. So far I've just had 14 months of the pig Obama, so I haven't built up the Bush-level nausea.

I stand by what I perceive to be the facts, and the conclusions I draw from them. We can agree to disagree.

But how 'bout that commission? When they handed over the report and said it was a fraud...well, I don't know how anyone could use it as a basis of argument after that.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 10:42 PM

No, the stuff about the commissioners is good. I'm talking about the other stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 10:28 PM

I have to say, ichMael, I think you hand the people who are trying to silence discussion about 9/11 a lot of ammo, and unnecessarily so, in my opinion. If we could just stick to the science, I think the rest of it would have a much better chance of getting sorted out. All of the other considerations are not necessary for getting to the bottom of what happened. All we need is the science. The rest of it just makes it harder for you to accomplish what you're trying to do (assuming that what you're trying to do bring the truth to light).

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: ichMael
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 09:50 PM

6 out of 10 of the official 9/11 Commissioners on record, discuss how the govern

The co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission (Thomas Keane and Lee Hamilton) said that the CIA (and likely the White House) "obstructed our investigation".

The co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission also said that the 9/11 Commissioners knew that military officials misrepresented the facts to the Commission, and the Commission considered recommending criminal charges for such false statements, yet didn't bother to tell the American people.

Indeed, the co-chairs of the Commission now admit that the Commission largely operated based upon political considerations.

9/11 Commission co-chair Lee Hamilton says "I don't believe for a minute we got everything right", that the Commission was set up to fail, that people should keep asking questions about 9/11, that the 9/11 debate should continue, and that the 9/11 Commission report was only "the first draft" of history.

9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey said that "There are ample reasons to suspect that there may be some alternative to what we outlined in our version . . . We didn't have access . . . ."

9/11 Commissioner Timothy Roemer said "We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were getting"

Former 9/11 Commissioner Max Cleland resigned from the Commission, stating: "It is a national scandal"; "This investigation is now compromised"; and "One of these days we will have to get the full story because the 9-11 issue is so important to America. But this White House wants to cover it up".

9/11 Commissioner John Lehman said that "We purposely put together a staff that had – in a way – conflicts of interest".

The Senior Counsel to the 9/11 Commission (John Farmer) who led the 9/11 staff's inquiry, said "I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described …. The tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years…. This is not spin. This is not true."

(Links embedded in story)

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Used that in a piece I put together tonight. It's no secret that Obama's getting set up to be whacked (if he doesn't go through with an attack on Iran), but I wondered why the Secret Service wasn't under scrutiny for their part in what's shaping up. The bit about Lincoln and the Secret Service in the thing I just uploaded is interesting:

9/11 Truthers are being set up for a fall

Don't know how long I'll leave that up...right click and save as if you want to hold onto the links and such.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: ichMael
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 01:21 PM

Greg F., you are avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics. Specifically, you seem to be using tactic # 19 from the previously-posted list. "19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs." If you had bothered to click on the link to the WND article you would have seen it leads to further links leading to Cass Sunstein's writings on the topic mentioned. The first link in the article leads to an abstract of Sunstein's Harvard Law paper. The abstract says:

"Many millions of people hold conspiracy theories; they believe that powerful people have worked together in order to withhold the truth about some important practice or some terrible event. A recent example is the belief, widespread in some parts of the world, that the attacks of 9/11 were carried out not by Al Qaeda, but by Israel or the United States. Those who subscribe to conspiracy theories may create serious risks, including risks of violence, and the existence of such theories raises significant challenges for policy and law. The first challenge is to understand the mechanisms by which conspiracy theories prosper; the second challenge is to understand how such theories might be undermined. ... Various policy dilemmas, such as the question whether it is better for government to rebut conspiracy theories or to ignore them, are explored in this light."

That's from the abstract. Sunstein goes on to conclude that government operatives should infiltrate social networking sites on the internet and muddy the waters with further government lies.

Thank you for your excellent example of disinformation tactics.