BS: The Legacy of 9/11

Subject: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: nutty
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 06:52 PM

Six years on and people are still dying.

I've just been watching a rather disturbing documentary on the plight of workers who have been made very ill from working in the toxic dust at Ground Zero without having proper respirators and other equipment.

An inability to work, coupled with enormous medical expenses. is making the lives of these men (particularly firefighters) very difficult and painful.

It seems such a shame, after the good work they all did, that the US Government is not giving more support - particularly in light of the millions of dollars wasted in Iraq.

Are we, in the UK, getting a distorted view from the media? Is this problem being blown out of all proportion? Or is this seeming lack of care typical of the Bush administration?

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 07:02 PM

It's a very bad situation made worse by tabloid media coverage both here and abroad. In other words, it's not as bad as the media makes it out, but things are still pretty damned rotten. Sort of the difference between "worse" and "worse still".

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 07:03 PM

All too typical...

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 07:05 PM

Six years on and people are still dying all right. Hundreds of thousands of them. I don't want to tread on anyone's sensitivities on this of all days, but I'm getting slightly impatient about this annual recapitulation of US self-pity. What happened on that day was a terrible thing, but there are millions of loved ones in the Middle East and Afghanistan who don't get memorial services, insurance payouts, compensation, readings of names and all that. Since approximately Sept 12 2002 I've been thinking of them a lot more. Apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 07:08 PM

There is some truth to it, Nutty...but there's also a lot of BS in some media accounts.   The Victim Compensation Fund has paid more than $1 billion to 2,680 people who were injured (mostly for respiratory illness), including $626 million to more than 1,300 injured firefighters. (more here) There was apparently a deadline for claims under that program, which has passed (the end of 2003, maybe), and there is legislation under consideration to allow people who didn't make claims earlier to file now.

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 07:12 PM

Somehow, September 11 has been named "Patriots' Day" (or "Patriot's Day"). And in true American fashion, I await the annual Patriots' Day sales....

Yes, I'm cynical. I also care, deeply, about "The Bravest."

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 07:16 PM

You aren't getting a distorted view, the workers & volunteers are suffering without much help. OSHA which should've been moniting the safety of the workers were asleep on the job much like FEMA. See the the thread "Sicko" Micheal Moore's movie. One fiefighter that hasn't recieved medical aid of much treatment was treat for his ills in Cuba at the expense of the Cuban government & the US won't do squat for these failing HERO'S, as the government loves to call them. It's another black eye & it's enough to make cry.

Our rescue efforts & our care for rescue workers is a thin slice of what our present goverment is all about.

There should be a department of "Rescue & Aid" (though Depts of Homeland Security & Social Services are in need of some serious need of revamping first) to watch & distrubite the aid & the moneies already appropreated for New Orleans & already been collected & spent in NYC, where it went all the victims of both are still wondering. The money for the victims of the towers is still being heard in court (those that never settled), they still want to know what happened & why.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: Becca72
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 07:21 PM

Maine and Massachusetts already have a "Patriots Day" celebrated in February and it has nothing to do with 9/11 (obviously). Somehow I feel very uncomfortable creating a holiday around this tragic event.

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 07:37 PM

The US would first have to have a Department of Social Services, which it does not.

There is clearly a moral obligation to care for those who truly have an ongoing illness because of 9/11, but where the legal liability for health care and compensation for disabilities lies is an interesting question. The Federal government is likely NOT the place. The World Trade Center is in New York City, which is where the property owners paid real estate taxes, and these taxes pay for the health insurance programs of city employees. The employers of both the individuals who worked there and of the rescue workers presumably paid into the Workers Compensation program of New York State, which would be liable for payment for both temporary and permanent disabilities. Information on filing those claims is discussed here .

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 07:38 PM

Adding insult to injury:
Blowhard Rudy Giuliani boasts that he spent just as much time at Ground Zero as the workman and he is fine. Guess he forgets that they worked there for almost a year clearing out debris filled with asbestos dust, the dust of human remains and lord only knows what toxic by-products.

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 07:55 PM

It's a very bad situation made worse by tabloid media coverage both here and abroad. In other words, it's not as bad as the media makes it out, but things are still pretty damned rotten.

I can't see how tabloid coverage would make things worse, even if it made out "a very bad situation" to be even worse than it is. In fact if "things are still pretty damned rotten" unfavourable publicity, even exaggerated, could surely help to make things better, and that's what matters.

In this country there has been very little tabloid coverage of all this, and I suspect that is even more the case in most other countries. My impression has been that that has generally been true in the States as well - if I'm wrong I'd see that as something to welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 08:02 PM

Oh, it's been covered. Usually on page 78, in one column inch, well below the fold.

It's simply been upstaged by more important things, like Paris Hilton's jail time and Brittany Spears' flab.

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 08:20 PM

Sorry Art , it's called the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services. The state's named there's the Department of Social Services. You are correct that worker's comp should pay but they only pay 80% while you're out of work & if it's longer than 2 yrs or it's a permanent disability you fight for what you can get or settle for & long term coverage is dicy once you've settled. OSHA should've been on the job, monitering air quality control as well as means & methods, they were asleep. Workers comp is correctly state controlled & paid not by city taxes but by taxes of all companies operating within the state, there should've been federal money for aid also & there was, where did it go?

There are to many that were neglected & that's shamefull.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: MaineDog
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 08:33 PM

As I recall, Patriots' Day is April 19, when they run the Boston Marathon.
MD

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: nutty
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 06:42 AM

Following Art Brookes link it would appaer that the programme I was watching did in no way exaggerate the difficulties tha firefighters in particular are experiencing............

343 New York City firefighters died on 9/11 (Source: FDNY)

At least 5,000 active and retired FDNY firefighters are currently undergoing medical treatment for injury or illness related to 9/11 (FDNY)

At least 3,000 FDNY firefighters have sought respiratory treatment since 9/11 (FDNY)

At least 600 FDNY firefighters have taken early retirement due to permanent respiratory illnesses since 9/11 (FDNY)

In the year after the 9/11 attacks, city firefighters as a group lost lung function equivalent to 12 years of aging (Source: joint study by FDNY and Mount Sinai Medical Center, released August 2006)

At least the dead died with their dreams - some survivors seem to be undergoing a life sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 08:39 AM

I can't see how tabloid coverage would make things worse, even if it made out "a very bad situation" to be even worse than it is. (McGrath)

I can. If exaggerations are shown to be untrue people begin to doubt the real core of the story.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: nutty
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 08:48 AM

Given the official figures (above) the programme certainly didn't exaggerate.

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: Peace
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 10:16 AM

Remember guys and gals like this. BTW, it ain't Rudy Giuliani.

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: Peace
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 10:21 AM

And to top it off, he's wearing the old MSA breathing apparatus. And the job ain't finished yet, because he has to help put the trucks to bed and wash his gear. Just another four hours ahead of him. I'm sure the guys and gals in NYC are so happy to be called heroes. Easier to ignore them that way.

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: Peace
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 10:26 AM

Kinda like Hell--without the ambiance.

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: Peace
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 10:30 AM

The legacy of 9/11 is one of broken lives. Thousands of them. The legacy for politicians is to ride on the backs of men and women who lost personnel (friends, co-workers, fellow firefighters and medics) in great numbers and went on to finish the job, because it's the job.

They aren't heroes, but they are one damned tough bunch of people--the kind I hope you'd want watching your back. Because they are.

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: Becca72
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 11:00 AM

'scuse me, Mainedog you are correct. I confused the dates

On April 19, the states of Maine and Massachusetts celebrate Patriot's Day. It is the anniversary of the war between the future America and Britain in 1775. This was the beginning of the American Revolution. On the night before the war, Paul Revere and William Dawes famously rode through the streets of Lexington to alert the Patriots of the coming British. The farmers of Lexington, known as the Minutemen, bravely fought off the British.

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 03:18 PM

True enough Wolfgang - but since it appears that there has been very little coverage of this aspect of September 11th on either side of the Atlantic I can't see how it really applies.

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 03:58 PM

I was going to point out the same thing as Wolfgang. I rarely believe what I see on the front of the tabloids.

Here's some info directly from the firefighters and what they think of Giuliani: You Tube firefighters video.

Subject: RE: BS: The Legacy of 9/11
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:01 PM

Here's the blurb for that:

iuliani Bungled Preparation in Years After 1993 Attack on Trade Center.

Critical failures by former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani before, during and after the terrorist attack on September 11, 2001, raise serious questions about his ability to be commander-in-chief.

In this thirteen minute documentary, fire fighters, fire officers and family members give dramatic testimony about Giuliani's leadership failures. Their dramatic stories tell how Giuliani failed to provide the FDNY with radios that worked, which led to the deaths of 121 fire fighters inside the World Trade Center's North Tower because they were unable to hear orders to evacuate.

Fire fighters also point to Giuliani's poor judgment in placing his emergency command center at 7 World Trade Center, a known terrorist target after the 1993 bombing.

This video documents the mayor's lack of respect for the fallen when he called off the recovery effort at Ground Zero on Nov. 1, 2001, after $200 million in gold bullion was recovered.

"We produced this documentary because we need to make sure our members know Giuliani's real record," said IAFF General President Harold Schaitberger.

"The UFA participated in this video to correct the myth that Rudy Giuliani has perpetrated on the American public," said Steve Cassidy, president of the Uniformed Firefighters Association of Greater New York, IAFF Local 94.

The Giuliani campaign defended the former mayor's record by issuing a release that lists items he purchased for FDNY.

"But the campaign, with its response, has neglected to address the charges of failed leadership outlined in our documentary," President Schaitberger said.

"Purchasing equipment for a fire department doesn't qualify any mayor to be president," said Jack McDonnell, president of New York City Local 854, the Uniformed Fire Officers Association.

"If that's the litmus test for president of the United States, then most mayors in this country qualify for the job. Giuliani is running on his 9/11 record, and his 9/11 record is laced with failures in preparedness and response," McDonnell said.

The IAFF has not made an endorsement in the 2008 presidential election. Local 94 supported President George W. Bush in the 2004 election, while the IAFF
and Local 854 endorsed Sen. John Kerry.

The International Association of Fire Fighters, headquartered in Washington, DC, represents more than 280,000 full-time professional fire fighters and paramedics in every state in the United States and in Canada. More information is available at www.iaff.org and at www.rudy-urbanlegend.com.