Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?

Subject: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Big Ballad Singer
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 05:16 PM

For me, it HAS to be either Robert Johnson or Leadbelly.

I can understand Robert's success in the 20s as a 'race' artist with the one or two popular records he made. He borrowed some guitar and vocal stylings from other popular blues singers and got lucky.

I can even understand why a bunch of stiff white guys from the UK and US would get all bothered by Robert's music... it's by turns spooky, moody and ribald.

But a LEGEND? Seriously? There were better guitarists and better singers by the score in his time. I think the mythos of the selling-to-Satan bit and the mysterious murder made a lot more of a legend out of Robert than his musical abilities would ever have.

Leadbelly... where do I begin? It's kind of creepy that a small enclave of white Yankee folksingers all found this mediocre guitarist and whiny singer so enthralling... I think it's because he was "AN AUTHENTIC NEGRO FROM THE SOUTH WHO WAS IN PRISON" and basically sold himself to the people.

I mean, really... I have a recording of Leadbelly singing "Haul Away, Joe" that is downright laughable. The guitar is out of tune, the lyrics he makes up make no sense half the time, especially not in a seafaring context, and I am sure that anyone who tried to haul sail to his off-tempo wailings would still be adrift at sea today.

But you take the "authentic negro guitarist who went to prison" and give him to whites with money, and WHAM! He's the "king of the 12 string guitar."

King, my foot.

All of this is, of course, and with apologies to anyone I un-necessarily offend, my own humble opinion.

Who do YOU think is the MOST over-rated folk artist that is regarded as some sort of "legend"?

Regards,

BBS

P.S. I don't discount the idea that one's "story" makes for a good part of their ability to sell themselves to people... Woody, for instance. But compare Woody's writing, poetry, painting, drawing, activism and downright counter-cultural bent to ANYTHING that a Robert Johnson or a Leadbelly ever did, and there's just no comparison. Someone like Woody Guthrie is a legend because he influenced the way America thought, sang, acted as citizens and entertained themselves. Someone like Johnson or Ledbetter simply made ignorant whites go "ooohhh!" at something they thought was some unattainable mysterious "mojo" that they didn't have... until their record labels paid them good money to ape the blues guys and get rich.

Anyway, carry on...

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 05:24 PM

I think your post says more about you than Johnson or Leadbelly.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 05:28 PM

SOrry to say it, but I am inclined in Will's direction here. I have a lot of respect for Leadbelly, as an example, and I believe that the description you proffer of him indicates you are suffering from a tin ear for the genre.


A

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 05:29 PM

There were better guitarists and better singers by the score in his time.

It might be interesting if you were to say who they were, and why you think they were superior?

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 06:00 PM

I agree with Crow Sister. I'd much rather hear you praise the 20 guitarists that were better than Leadbelly, than hear you denigrate Leadbelly.

That way, I might even learn something.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 06:03 PM

What is the point of this thread? We can all boast about our musical taste and how it's clearly better than other peoples' taste, but why do that?

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 06:14 PM

Johnny Cash or Bob Dylan.

I like Robert Johnson, but can see the OP's point about Leadbelly.

Captain Beefheart is an acquired taste too. Was very underwhelming live.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Smedley
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 06:22 PM

Bruce Springsteen (if he has achieved legend status, which I fear he has, to some).

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 06:25 PM

No offence (offense) meant to anyone, but this kind of thread denigrates us as people and musicians.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 06:28 PM

These threads are nonsensical.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 06:31 PM

Find the most legendary legend, and there's your answer.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 06:39 PM

I think leadbelly was the best 12 string guitarist[of that era] i have heard,however I think Blind Lemon Jefferson[6 string guitar]was even better.
leadbelly is surely excused one or two duff songs.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:03 PM

Life is too short to waste time on this sort of nonsense. "Eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow ..." you know the rest.

Praising musicians whom you believe to be unjustly ignored or under-rated may serve some useful purpose. But denigrating artists whom you regard as over-rated is just a roundabout way of boasting about how superior your own taste is to that of the common herd.

Why not just enjoy your favourite music - as player,singer,dancer or listener - and leave categorising and classifying to the librarians, who at least get paid for doing it.


Wassail!

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:25 PM

Surely we all think our own taste is superior? The problem is getting others to acknowledge it..

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:39 PM

These threads are complete bloody rubbish, so let's just say Dylan and leave it at that, eh? ;-)

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:50 PM

Xanadu

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:51 PM

Well, re: Robert Johnson and Leadbelly and other such early singer-guitarists, they were the ones who showed the way. Others, coming along later, learned from these "legends" and some managed to go on to exceed their skills.

Let's put it this way: compared to a 747 or a modern jet fighter, the first "aeroplane" that flew at Kitty Hawk in 1903 wasn't much of an aircraft. But it showed that it could be done!!

I had a friend (dead now) who heard Leadbelly live at one of the Swarthmore College folk festivals back in the late 1940s. He said that, on stage, in front of a audience, nattily dressed in his bow tie and dark pinstripe suit, Leadbelly was like a Force of Nature!

This same friend once heard someone putting Leadbelly down in much the same way the OP is doing. My friend remarked, "That guy, criticizing Leadbelly like that, doesn't know what the hell he's talking about! He's like a Chihuahua yapping at a lion!"

Don Firth

P. S. Now there is one well-known singer from the Sixties whom many people frequenting this web site seem to regard as some kind of god. But all things considered, I'm of the opinion that he's grossly overrated. Wrote a few good songs (stole some others and claimed they were his--this is documented), phony as a three-dollar bill (made up a whole fictional personal background), and can't sing for sour applesauce (based on a good ear and sound musical judgment). In addition to this, he was notorious for having walked all over people who had helped him early on.

But not wanting to be stoned in the streets by his legion of worshippers, I'll leave that for your speculation.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:52 PM

There are several, and thankfully I've completely forgotten who they were.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:55 PM

Well, sorry but I think he has a right to his opinion. He may be wrong in a lot of our books, but he gave reasons why he felt Johnson and Ledbetter were overrated. The point he makes about legend being an important element to greatness is well made. I do think some of the hero worship of RJ as The King of the Delta Blues gives influences like Son House rather short shrift. The criticism of Ledbetter as "AN AUTHENTIC NEGRO FROM THE SOUTH WHO WAS IN PRISON" walks the racism line, but I do think there is some accuracy to that point, enough to keep from crossing the line.
I think The Kingston Trio were about as faithful to the folk tradition as Faith Hill is to the country-western tradition and Celtic Woman to Irish Trad music. Nothing wrong with saying who you don't like...long as it aint everybody.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 08:12 PM

Of course he has a 'right to an opinion' ( though I've never been sure from where this right is to be verified) however, There's absolutely no reason to express opinions....unless there is a good reaon.This is just a silly thread, I'll only think about it every time i hear 'Midnight Special'.( there are many more , of course, but that one on its own deserves immortality.)

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 08:25 PM

Atlantis is the most over-rated legend.

Or maybe the unicorn.

Bigfoot however is everything they say he is - and more.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 08:25 PM

Of course he has a right to his stupid opinion, and we have the right to say it's stupid.

But Leadbelly, whiny? Somebody buy this man a dictionary.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Big Ballad Singer
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 08:26 PM

Anyone who read racism in what I wrote is just laying for a fight. I am nobody's bigot. I get marginalized enough to know that it hurts, no matter what characteristic of a person is being discriminated against. So let's please just drop all the racist insinuations. Now.

My point about Leadbelly is NOT that he was not talented. He was.
My point is NOT that he was unskilled. He was, as another poster said, the Wright Brothers' plane before the jets. Well said.

I simply meant that the "legend" thing is at least due as much to some people's need for "authenticity" and "the real McCoy" as it is due to his playing, singing, writing, arranging or whatever else.

Take a group like the Carolina Chocolate Drops. They never picked cotton or were owned as slaves... does that make their excellent musicianship and carrying-on of their musical legacy any less "authentic"? What if they sucked as musicians? Would they still be welcomed as "authentic" whatever? No, not today, because there are multi-millionaires out there who can't play, but they can sell. The modern recording industry doesn't need "authentic", they need "marketable".

In the "folk boom" era, however, "authenticity" was going to sell a LOT more (to the earnest folkie crowd) than musical excellence alone.

Oh, and as far as a certain curly-headed demigod goes, I think he flat-out USED the folk boom and the earnest kind-heartedness of those who were trying to build up the Village scene to his advantage. Wrote some very memorable but TOTALLY derivative songs (the ones that weren't plain stolen) and made his millions being whatever the times wanted him to be. Earnest young Woody-ite, rebellious 60s iconoclast, 70s grizzled road vet and then Jesus Freak, 80s sit-on-my-ass-and-collect-royalties, and then into the 90s and beyond, taking on the "classic rock legend" costume and writing some decent roots-rock.

Legend? In terms of pop stardom and the ability to navigate nearly 40 years' worth of fickle radio and consumer attitudes, YES.

Legend as a writer, singer, or what have you? No.

Willie Nelson... Now, THERE'S a legend for you.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 08:32 PM

Erm....still know and enjoy many songs by Leadbelly....enjoyed them before I knew they were by, or had even heard of Leadbelly. Your other Icons...trying hard to think of anything memorable.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 09:25 PM

Compare and contrast -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCf60f_sAA0&feature=fvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj3s8qq3kU4&feature=related

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 09:38 PM

That Little David play on your harp guy.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 09:52 PM

Sid Vicious

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 10:20 PM

Within the last year, PBS did a special with James Taylor. I have never liked James Taylor, but I did watch and listen through four songs. I tried; I really tried to enjoy the performance. Those twenty minutes or so re-confirmed my opinion--James Taylor IS the most over-rated performer, legend or no.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 10:40 PM

Aw hell John.....You just needed to have some insight into JT and you'd have had a good time watchin'..........If another thing pops up on him, here's some good info that'll make it more fun for you: Did you know you can sing "Fire and Rain" to almost any James Taylor song?

Also, if you're unaware of it, The Mudcat Cafe has for many years operated th Neil Young Center for the Terminally Screwed out in Montana. Really....try a search on it or just NYCFTTS. A few years back we were able to add a new wing which also houses the James Taylor Catatonic Blandness Rehab Clinic.

Admission is free for 'Catters and the Insanevac helicopter is available for emergency cases.   Everyone admitted gets a kazoo and learns the Oscar Meyer wiener ditty!!!

Tell ya' what.....Big Ballad Singer might want to check the place out 'cause he seems a bit overwrought about Dylan.


Spaw

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Big Ballad Singer
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 12:21 AM

Spaw,

Nah... he's a great one. I just like to call 'em as I see 'em. I have been behind the scenes AND on the stage for too long to be star-struck by anyone that passes for a "legend" these days.

Tug... what other Icons?

Anyway, again, not trying to say that anyone's NOT TALENTED. Just trying to say that I think there are a lot more things turning people into "legends" than their playing and singing. Money, for one. Marketability. A willingness to be the "you" that sells... the "you" that someone pays you to be.

All just my opinion and not scanned for absolute coherence nor for compatibility with what anyone else thinks.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 03:00 AM

They may well be overrated legends Big Ballad Singer, but it's something you will never be.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 03:45 AM

Surely the subject line was supposed to be:

The Who are THE most over-rated 'legends'.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 03:54 AM

To a certain - and large - degree, to appreciate Robert Johnson's guitar playing it is helpful if you also play the guitar and have tried to play it his style. I've tried, and I can tell you that it's near impossible to capture the way he plays with all the subtle nuisances. I'm a pretty good guitarist but I can't come close. And as for Robert's singing...well!
And don't start me on Leadbelly. He is fantastic!

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 04:16 AM

I first heard Leadbelly when, back in 1960, a friend played me a record called "Grasshoppers In My Pillow". I knew absolutely nothing about Leadbelly - the "legend", the events of his birth, life, death - sweet f.a. Let me tell you that I was instantly hooked - by the voice, the guitar, the overall sound. As Don Firth so aptly put it above - a force of nature. I played it again just now, and it has lost none of its power.

Quite apart from any of that, Leadbelly had a huge repertoire of very varied and different material - a goldmine for folklorists such as the Lomaxes. In that sense, I think he was unique. If he was taken up by the white intelligentsia and folklorists, that was none of his doing - I'm sure he found being taken up by those people infinitely preferable to sharecropping or labouring or playing endless nights in juke joints and bars. Or being in prison again.

I agree with you that there are many modern performers about whom the word "legend" may be a misnomer, but I think you picked two very poor examples of that with Johnson and Leadbelly.

However, when you start threads like this, what are you really trying to achieve? Do you want it to turn into a long list of musicians being dissed by a long list of 'Catters? If so, why? In the end it's pointless because all taste is personal, and such a list is merely a series of personal negatives. How much more positive to start a thread which celebrates your heroes, your favourites - or one which analyses technique, performance, musical skills so that we can all benefit. To say that performers may be subject to the hype of the media of the time is, quite frankly, to state the bleedin' obvious.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: alex s
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 06:21 AM

Here here, Will (or is it hear hear ? - that's another thread).
How about closing this thread - Will has said it all.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: cetmst
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:08 AM

I was at Leadbelly's Swarthmore College performance which Don Firth mentioned in a previous thread and remember being impressed by the powerful personality - as well as the physical power - of the man.
I was also impressed by the folks who sponsored (some have said exploited) him and made a music genre, otherwise obscure, avaliable.

I also agree that ratings of best, top 40, 10 worst, etc., are useless. The performers and performances are there. If you like them, listen; if not, go elsewhere. Have you ever noticed how the media speaks only in superlatives - newscasts, weather channels,reviews? - Charles

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:15 AM

BBS. Since no-one else appears to have mentioned it, far from being a success (minor or otherwise) in the 1920s, Robert Johnson did not record until 1936; a fact you would have picked up on if you'd bothered to listen to him ast all closely.

As for your attack on Leadbelly. Anyone can tear an artist to pieces with a few badly chosen adjectives, as you chose to do. The trouble is they just don't mean anything.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: dwditty
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:22 AM

Pretty much anyone who has achieved "legend" status is overrated. There are countless "unknown" musicians who play better and sing better than the legends. The Legends have put together a package that puts their music across in a way that reaches many (but by no means all) people. Each of us is free to assign our own suckability rating to them, as you have done BBS.

Side note on JT. I, too, have never been a fan, but found myself at a JT/Carole King concert recently. I still do not like JT any better, and it would not occur to me to put on a Carole King record, but I must admit, I thought their show was great.

dw

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:30 AM

Elvis.

There, I've said it. Fire at will.

Peter

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:30 AM

was that Frank Hamilton singing with the Weavers[ MUDCAT String Singer], in Snails post.
Ithought both versions of Irene were good, but LEADBELLYS WAS REALLY POWERFUL.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 10:21 AM

GSS, I'm pretty sure that's the original Weavers lineup: Ronnie Gilbert, Lee Hays, Fred Hellerman and Pete Seeger.

I misread the OP's screen name as Big Balled Singer and thought now there's an over-rated legend in the making.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: meself
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 11:09 AM

Tunesmith (above): "it's near impossible to capture the way he plays with all the subtle nuisances"

I don't know if that's a mistake, but I like it.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 11:18 AM

"Here here, Will (or is it hear hear ?"

For what it's worth, it definitely is "Here here!", and not "Hear hear."
But for some reason most people get it wrong and the other way around. Not sure why.



Otherwise, I really don't know enough (anything) about the early Blues to have an opinion on either the validity or otherwise of the "legend" appellation ascribed to Leadbelly & Robert Johnson.

So I'd still genuinely appreciate it if BigBalladSinger would offer us a smattering of the dozens of other singers and guitarists around during that era, that he thinks were greater artists.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Big Ballad Singer
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 11:25 AM

Dave H,

"...something [I] will never be."

And you know me or a god-damned thing about me, how, exactly?

Fred Mc:

How would LISTENING to Johnson's music closely inform me that he recorded in 1936? Oh, and that was an honest mistake... I know a ton more about Johnson and a lot of other Delta artists than you are wrongly assuming. I was at my desk and not near my altar to Robert. SO sorry.

DWDitty, THANK YOU. I don't know why several assholes have decided that THEIR opinion of Leadbelly not only negates mine, but gives them license to attack me personally.

Joe, or whoever, go ahead and close this f-ing thing. I never realized how wrong it was to have an opinion different from the obviously exalted personages who have poured out their wrath on this poor sinner.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 11:33 AM

"I know a ton more about Johnson and a lot of other Delta artists than you are wrongly assuming."

I'm not assuming anything myself. But I would appreciate a response to my request... Eh?

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 11:40 AM

No I don't know anything about you Big Ballad Singer, except that you have come here to slag off two popular singers who are both dead and can't answer back, and do it without the courage to use your own name.

Dave Hanson, my real name by the way.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 11:58 AM

I am amazed at the amount of indignation that Big Ballad Singer has created with this thread. Is it sacrilegious to say Leadbelly and Johnson are overrated? Do we have to tiptoe around when saying the same about Dylan? Why should BBS have to provide a list of people he truly admires to counter the ones he doesn't? And why in hell are people suggesting this thread be closed?

If you disagree with BBS, why not just say why and give your reasons as he's done? I don't see this thread as trolling, and I think you set a dangerous precedent by calling for censorship by the moderators because BBS had the nerve to badmouth Leadbelly. It seems to me Leadbelly's achievements can contradict his opinion on their own merit with just a little help from his admirers here.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 12:01 PM

Dear Big Ballad Singer, whoever you are - of course other people's opinion will "negate" yours, because they don't share yours. Why should your opinion be the only one that counts? And I'll ask again what the point of this thread is ...it is ALL subjective. My taste is my own, yours is yours. I love tomatoes, my husband doesn't - what does that say about us as human beings, or tomatoes? Nothing of any value at all. HE would say tomatoes are over-rated, I wouldn't.
If you don't like a particular singer there's no reason why you should subscribe to other people's valuation of them, but there's also no reason to start a Mudcat thread about it.
But hey, I've been around Mudcat long enough to know that some people just love this kind of nonsense so I'll bow out of this thread (and others like it) permanently. Oh - yes, that's my real name, too. I don't mind standing fully behind my point of view.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 12:06 PM

Why should BBS have to provide a list of people he truly admires to counter the ones he doesn't?

Because I asked politely in response to a statement made, and I'm curious! I wasn't throwing down the gauntlet!

'And why in hell are people suggesting this thread be closed?"

I don't know! I really don't agree with censoriousness on Mudcat which is a music discussion site. And I don't agree with personally directed attack either, because someone airs a (perhaps challenging) view about music - which is in theory what we're all here for...

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 12:06 PM

Little David and his harp.