Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 07:22 PM

The OP may have the right to post about whatever s/he likes in whatever way s/he likes (do long as it conforms to basic MC rules), but s/he doesn't have the right to impose upon others what they may or may not respond to, or in what fashion they do so.

BBS, do lighten up, eh? ;)

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 07:23 PM

I hate to have to denigrate any legend, but I must disagree with Wesley S's high opinion of Bigfoot. I mean, have you ever heard Bigfoot sing? Strictly amateur! And what did he accomplish, really? I mean let's face it: the guy's entire legend is essentially based on his being camera shy. He never even had any good adventures like, say, Peter Rabbit.

Back to reality, my vote for most underrated musical legend: Moondog

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 07:26 PM

Ooer, I just got some Moondog last weekend. Coolio.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 07:52 PM

"I just like to call 'em as I see 'em."

There's something about that expression that always seems to indicate something less than attractive about the way the person saying it is regarding themselves.

I think greg stephens at 29 Jul 10 - 12:50 PM got it about right. I don't think it needs saying twice.

......................
Incidentally I understand from a recent thread that they now think that the version of Robert Johnson we think we know is a bit distoreted, because they speeded up the records, which made the voice higher. Still sounds pretty good at what's reckoned to be the correct speed - in fact I'd say better. I don't know if it's made any diffeence to the legend part of it.

A "legend" - surely that means something that's good to pass on and remember and from which people can draw inspiration. Who cares of Robin Hood actually ever lived?

To quote The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend ..."

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 08:31 PM

Legends? You want legends?

How is THIS for a legend!??

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Gail
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 05:28 AM

and here's some of Moondog's music

Moondog 1969 (I think)

New Yorkers may like to know that Moondog was also a legend at Hull University (UK) when I arrived in 1971. This album was THE album to own among us philosophy students.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,JonR
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 08:12 AM

I agree Robert Johnson is over-rated, but not by much. He happened to tick all the boxes required (by white blues fans) of a "legend" - died young, made few recordings, all seemingly uniquely accomplished, got linked with the idiotic story of the devil and the crossroads.
Those can be the only reason he became better known than his mentor Son House, who had a similar intense personal style - which became the template for the archetypal Delta blues singer: the tortured individual at war with himself and his demons. (Rather than the all-round entertainers, also performing gospel and dance tunes, that most of them actually were.)
IOW, he's achieved iconic status because someone had to, and he had all the qualifications - non-musical as well as musical.

His guitar-playing was certainly not satanically gifted, but it was pretty damn good. I'm still waiting for the OP (though he's probably gone now) to name some of those he considered better. Blind Lemon Jefferson? Blind Blake maybe? Who else? (I'd genuinely like to know if there's some great players of that era that I've somehow missed. Especially if they can wipe the floor with Robert Johnson. Which I doubt...)

I shall tease the OP by saying I think Willie Nelson is over-rated as a legend.;-) (Great singer, writer and performer, but legend?)

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 10:03 AM

Being a "legend" isn't necessarily a matter of being the greatest musician, or the greatest anything. It's more about putting a face and a name in a story that needs telling.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: greg stephens
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 10:36 AM

Guest JonR says re Robert Johnson "Those can be the only reasons he became better known than his mentor Son House" (referring to various non-musical bits of the story). Well, I disagree. I think the main reasons are the recordings of Robert Johnson, and the recordings of Son House. We have all made up our minds, and the balance has tipoped the Johnson way. I say recordings, as I doubt if anyone writing here saw Robert Johnson live. The lucky ones will have caught Son House(I did, a great thrill. But I still rate Johnson higher!!).

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 12:19 PM

I must be the most "under rated" legend.

In fact, so under rated that nobody outside my mirror knows I am a legend really...

Sorry, but not sure about this thread. the original question was rather subjective to say the least. The subject matter of the OP was suspect and completely missed the point of talent versus capturing imagination.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Neil D
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 12:40 PM

Funny coincidence that people have brought up Moondog. I had never heard of him till earlier this week. I happened to check him out on Youtube because he was one of several musicians recommended by Jim White on his website. Jim White is himself quite under-rated.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Cartin' Marthy
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 01:00 PM

I think folk music itself is overrated. It stopped being pure and unadulterated at least 2 generations ago. Now it's just people pretending, like Jackanory or Playaway.

It's Dungeons and Dragons for people too self concious to wear capes.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 01:23 PM

"It's Dungeons and Dragons for people too self concious to wear capes."

Try telling the Ren-Fayre people that, now there's a traditional folk activity: Disney crossed with LARP.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Deckman
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 02:02 PM

To be truthfull ... I think THAT I AM! I'll explain:

I'm really old, I mostly play really old songs, my guitar is really old (a 1938 Martin classic), I no longer have a string of groupies ... (actually I don't remember that I ever did) ... I tend to be intolerant of "modern folk music" ...!

But I DO QUALIFY as a "legend in my own time" because a year ago, someone said that about me on the radio ... (it cost me a lunch)! CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson ... still safely hiding in Everett, Washington

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 02:09 PM

Deckman

But I DO QUALIFY as a "legend in my own time" because a year ago, someone said that about me on the radio ... (it cost me a lunch)!

Clearly a Legend in Your Own Lunchtime.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 02:18 PM

Of course to be a real legend you'd need to be called "Foot". Or maybe "Toe".

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 03:17 PM

Guest Cartin' Marthy ~~

Whoever said that a legend needs to be 'pure & unadulterated'? Indeed, it needs to be the opposite, because 'legend' is part of folklore, which can never, by definition [but don't let's start THAT again just now!] be pure & unadulterated ~~ or it just ain't folk, is it?

{I mean, what's with your '2 generations'? If it was 'pure & unadulterated' before the invention of printing, which I beg leave to doubt, the advent of the blackletter broadside, chapbook, street ballad, true·last·confession, &c &c &c, soon put paid to that...}

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 03:58 PM

Folk just hasn't been the same since people stated using words...

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 04:18 PM

Well, Robert Johnson was a far more complete guitarist than Son House. Robert could play everything that Son played - but better, and he also had other influences ( Lonnie Johnson, for example) that made him a more varied guitarist. Of course, Son House is also a legend, and - to my ears - the greatest blues singer ever!

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Guest, Lash LaRue
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 07:55 PM

To Don Firth:

THANKS for the Link to Ersel Hickey.

Lash LaRue

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 10:23 PM

I had to give this a lot of thought, and well...


















I figure it's a tossup between me and Don Firth. ;-D

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Guest-Dee
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 12:16 PM

Eric Clapton.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Reality
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 03:35 PM

Folk music has legends?

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: banjoman
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 05:19 AM

If she ever makes it to legend status then I nominate June Tabor as the most overrated singer ever.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:05 AM

Jimi Hendrix

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Hesk
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:36 AM

I never "got" Shirley Collins, but I feel quite guilty saying it, as I think she felt the same.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:00 PM

Personal taste and the passing of time make or break legends.
We all stand on the shoulders of giants.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: BTNG
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 04:32 PM

Big Ballad Singer (more of a legend in his own mind I think)

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:11 PM

I also don't get Shirley Collins, but I'll tell you this: She was - and probably still is - one of the attractive women that I've ever met!

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: skipy
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 06:09 PM

J Cash without a doubt.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Richard in Manchester
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 06:36 PM

BBS's question was a fun way to start a thread, if you ask me. [Mudcat Militant Tendency: "Who asked you?!"].

When did it become a law that you can't introduce a discussion unless it's to say something "positive" about your subject matter? Leaving aside the cat-fight between Mineisobviouslythecorrectopinionland and the Democratic Republic of Everbodysentitledtoanopinion, I would like to suggest an answer to BBS's original question in the spirit in which I believe it was meant:

Van Morrison.

That's my opinion. Judging from your intervening posts, BBS, if you are VM's biggest fan I do not think you will mind.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: dwditty
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 09:03 AM

Becoming a legend has little to do with the performer and their ability. Cruise youtube and you will find lots of talented people who "outside their small circle of friends" no one has even heard of. Legend is bestowed on someone by the listening public, sometimes simply as a result of their buying into some publicity machine who has declared that performer so.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 09:12 AM

I once thought I was described as a'Living Legend' in our local paper , til my friends and enemies pointed out it said 'Legendary Liver'

It's all a matter of personal choice and opinion and those who follow fashion usually aren't worth listening to. I hate such lists.

If any singer or musician does it with passion and sincerity it is worth a respectfull listen even if it's not technically 'good'

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 10:21 PM

Haven't followed the thread but that Thompson bloke - he of the daft hat - gets my vote.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: stallion
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 04:07 AM

Isn't it funny how some people still fight the tide? What interests me is the mechanism that brings it to "critical mass", at what point and why these lemming like followings occur. I think humankind has an inherent need to belong to a tribe and some need to be leaders even if it is "big fish in a small pond". It seems that it is more important to belong than what it is you belong to. So perhaps it doesn't matter who was better than who, an icon was chosen and an icon is worshipped. Like the sandal in Life of Brian! It is difficult to compare old things with contemporary eyes and ears you had to be there to really understand, on the other hand one can safely assume that "where there is smoke there is fire" and although one didn't witness a "special" event it it can also be assumed that it was. Legends and Myths are what societies need, deeds embellished and enhanced, heroes, inspiration, after all very few living people measure up.
My pet subject is this trad folksinger thing. I cannot fathom why some people strive to sing like 80 year old men and women and tell me that that this is authentic tradtional folk music and the way everyone should sing. Do not see that at all.
Nough said, legends are made by society not the person so when one has a pop at a legend it isn't the person that you are denegrating
but the collective memory, enhanced or otherwise, of the society that created itand you are makinh a lot of enemies Mr Canute.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: cptsnapper
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 08:00 AM

Karl Marx

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: C-flat
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 09:27 AM

This is such a subjective topic that the original poster takes a bit of a hammering over his Robert Johnson/ Leadbelly comments.
The problem being that, Big Ballad Singer, you completely ignore the possibility that you may be missing something and that it's just not for you.

I noticed a couple of similar comments regarding James Taylor in an earlier posting. For me JT is an extremely interesting songwriter and a talented guitarist. Beautiful use of bass notes underpinning his picking style, but it's just my opinion.

And I'd also admit to finding the legend know as BOB DYLAN extremely hard to listen to.
I just don't have an ear for him!!!
I love his songs, but I love them when someone else sings them. Someone with more of a sense of rythym and better singing style.
Now I know that they'll be scores of you wanting to attack me on this.
DON'T BOTHER! I ALREADY GET IT! For you, it's his style and delivery that makes his musical poetry come alive. For me it kills it!

So it's a shame for us that not everyone gets the same experience and when I want to rave about Django Reinhardt to my partner only to see her going all glassy-eyed and reaching for her Robbie Williams CDs, I've just got to accept we're all different and realise that we all need to respect each others passions.
C-flat.
(Django is king though.....)

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 04:55 PM

It seems that the point of this thread it to offer a personal opinion and have it countered.

Leadbelly was an amazing 12 string guitar player. Pete Seeger once told me that he would trade in his banjo playing and singing if he could play like Leadbelly.

Most legends, however, tend to be overrated and that's why they become legends in the first place. People put certain artists on pedestals without considering really what they do. Music criticism is filled with this type of meaningless detail.

The reasons Leadbelly was great was because:
1. He played with power and rhythm together.
2. His bass runs have never been successfully duplicated by any one.
3. His guitar was unique. An old Stella restrung with heavy gauge strings, the bottom
sixth and fifth two octaves apart.
4. He was a true representative of African-American folk song from the Louisiana and Texas chain gangs.
5. He had a powerful voice and magnetic stage presence.
6. He was a repository of folk songs such as Fannin Street, The Grey Goose, Kisses Sweeter Than Wine, Good Night Irene, Midnight Special, Bring a Little Water Silvy,
Bourgeois Blues, Red Cross Store and the wonderful "I Don't Lie Buddy" with Josh White.
7. He was the model for Lonnie Donegan who attempted to imitate him with dubious
consequences.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 04:57 PM

It well may be that if we knew who he was the Big Ballad Singer might be the most
overrated "legend" ever self-concocted.

"He was a legend in his own mind"

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 05:21 PM

It's not William Shatner, because it's impossible to over-rate Shatner! ;-)

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,seth from Olympia
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 08:42 PM

I'm about to depart for the Grocery Outlet store, a wonderful local market with piped in sixiies music, some of it okay, some of it really awful, but I can't turn off my internal listener nearly as well as my wife, so I know that in between Chuck Berry, Lelsey Gore and the Dave Clark Five, somewhere there will be some song by Gary Puckett (and the Union Gap)-sucked then, sucked between then and now, sucks now, with no short interludes of not sucking in between. I never hear any of the legends dissed or not diised here when I go out into the world,though I wouldn't mind a bit seeing the other shoppers walkin' around mouthing the lyrics to Dylan,Leadbelly, Robert Johnson,Sister Rosetta Tharpe or about 1000 other artists that I love-better that than non-legends, who never were legends,who just refuse to stay in their grave. My apologies to all fans of "Garry Puckett and the Union Gap"

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 11:03 PM

Pecos Bill

Paul Bunyan

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Adam Smith
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 04:04 AM

I agree, it is not William Shatner. Or Leornard Nimoy.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 10:33 AM

The most over rated leg end would have to be

Michael FOOT!

The only British Prime Minister in the history of Parliament so disrespectful as to turn up at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday wearing half a sheep, on his back.

As to musicians, and the topic of this thread, I am not sufficiently jealous of any such as to denigrate them in a fruitless attempt to improve my own stature by comparison.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: stallion
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 12:56 PM

hate to be a pedant but michael Foot was the leader of the opposition and turned up in what looked like a donkey jacket, fairly commom outdoor work wear for the building trades at the time. So what was so wrong with wearing a coat that could be readily identified with the working classes (The class of the majority of the fallen) Better than the tories removing their ties at conferance to show that they are the same the hoi poloi.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: stallion
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 01:00 PM

PS.
Pity was Michael Foot didn't make it to PM instead of the plethora of ego driven career politicians who crave power and hang the electorate

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 05:17 AM

What's this? Moondog on Mudcat? Those first three albums are very precious, and we play his orchestral stuff & madrigals a lot in the car too. In terms of cranky Americana I'd say he's up there with Harpo Marx, Martin Denny, Sun Ra and Harry Partch. Lots of choice Moondog & Martin Denny re-issues cropping up lately - I was looking at a few on Saturday in Probe (Liverpool) which since its move to the precints of the Blue Coat seems to have got very folky. I like a shop where you can buy vinyl re-issues of Shirley Collins albums (in their correct covers) alongside all of the above and more besides - & always good to see Ennio Morricone's legendary / hip status assured in perpetuity. Check it out.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 08:52 AM

This guy?

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 01:08 PM

Jimi Hendrix is overrated? Here is a guy, like him or not, who changed the way the electric guitar was played forever after. He was not the most technically proficient musician of his time, but his approach to sound manipulation was a paradigm-shift for rock and roll. He was also rooted in the Blues, and as such helped bring a generation "raised on rock" into the trad fold.

Van Morrison has been able to stay in the spot light for over 40 years, has gone through numerous changes in style, and like Hendrix, has influenced a new generation of performers. Van has also brought a roots-based sensibility, incorporating Gospel, Blues, and Celtic forms into his music.

Of course, both have committed the unforgiveable sin of achieving popular success.

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: ollaimh
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 08:41 PM

doncha think sissiphus is over rated. whats so bad about rolling rock. i've liked the stuff ever since i visited to a frisco tavern