Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: raymond greenoaken
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 05:37 AM

You have! That's all it boils down to, really. In their final '70s incarnation Fairport were well aware of their vocal limitations, but disobligingly broke up before the idea could be pursued. With today's audio technology, surely it must be possible to graft a Bellamy vocal onto a Fairport rhythm track – or a Stones rhythm track, come to that. That would be worth hearing.

Of course, at one time Fairport were toying with the idea of using Bert Lloyd as a vocalist. I hear tell they're in discussions with Rolf Harris for next year's Cropredy...

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 07:57 PM

Again we might speculate on how Fairport would have been with Bellamy as their singer. They approached him, he accepted, but it never happened - although maybe it did in some alternate universe.

Has anyone got the full story?

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:43 PM

who can blame her?she probably thought he had come back from the dead.
his premature death has previously appeared in That August pillar of the establishment The Daily Telegraph

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:24 PM

I was fortunate enough to see Sandy with Fairport one time. Other than a few songs where she slid behind the piano, she spent the entire evening with her hands on her hips glaring at Dave Swarbrick. I didn't know Sandy of course so I can't read into this, but I did come away with a definite feeling of relief that she wasn't glaring at me.

(More thread drift. Sorry)

David E.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 01:39 PM

SANDY DENNY?she sings with balls.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 08:22 AM

Distinct lack of balls, though.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 07:55 AM

no I dint put their singing in thAT category, you mentioined them Pip.I did not
I think both JT AND AB do excellent versions of Reynardine

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 07:13 PM

Isn't it a shame that Anne doesn't want to sing any longer? The last time I heard her was in the "Acoustic Routes" film and I thought she was still wonderful. But, that's her choice, so I guess we should be glad for the records we have.

(Sorry about the thread drift. I did play Peter's Fair Annie cd last night, that's wonderful stuff too.)

David E.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 03:51 PM

Girly voices and no balls

So much for Sandy Denny, Anne Briggs, June Tabor...

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 03:31 PM

I doubt it, people seem to prefer the Kate Rusbys of the world, Girly voices and no balls.thanks for putting up the videos ,I enjoyed them

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 10:47 AM

I just wish I could do them a bit better that's all but, as I say, the VHS dub isn't that much better than what you see there. Hopefully whoever has the originals might be moved to post them?? Meanwhile I tried Part Three earlier - British Man o' War (from the Martime England Suite with Dolly Collins & Ursula Smith) and The Liner She's a Lady (excerpt with Chris Birch and Anthea Bellamy) - but there was too much flickering interferance.

I'd love to know where these were from - someone's obviously taken some time over them, with insets of suitably maritime scenes. Whilst the Maritime England sequence looks like footage from a studio rehearsal, TLSAL looks like it could have come from the Rolf Harris Show, with lights, backdrop and all: CB in fine hat and boots, AB looking beautifully folkly-fey and BP adopting that classic stance and widow's peak. If he were around now, PB would be in his element guesting with Bellowhead in packed concert halls where punters would be playing air-anglo in the aisles.

Will persevere!

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: brezhnev
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 10:25 AM

Great tapes! What a treat!

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,freebornman
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 09:40 AM

Suibhne! Thank you very very much!!!!

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 06:40 AM

Thanks for the upload - inspirational stuff.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 06:38 AM

Kipling mentioned a local family called Copper in one of the stories in Rewards&Fairies.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: brezhnev
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 06:29 AM

There's an interesting article about musical settings of Kipling by Brian Mattinson here that seems to back up Bellamy's belief that Kipling was familiar with the kind of songs his one-time Sussex neighbours, The Copper family, sang.

It suggests, inter alia, that he may have written A Smuggler's Song with the Copper's version of The White Cockade in his head.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: raymond greenoaken
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 04:30 AM

Quick gather-up...

"I don't think I've got a recording of him doing You Can't Always Get What You Want"

If I'd been cheeky enough to switch on the cassette recorder in our kitchen in the Spring of 91, we'd have had Can't Always Get, Tumbling Dice and Harp Song Of The Dane Women. Chiz...

"Interesting to hear his speaking voice - closer to RP than one might have guessed from the records. The exaggerated regional accent he used when singing was clearly as affected as the bleat"

And your point is...? That traditional songs should be sung utterly without artifice? You can "own" a regional accent without necessarily using it in your everyday speech.

"I believe Kipling was more influenced by music hall songs than folk songs"

Yes, if it's possible to quantify such things. Actually Kipling didn't have much of an ear, by all accounts. He knew his folk song pretty well, but not necessarily through hearing it sung. He'll have known it better on the page, I think.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Goatboy
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 06:24 PM

By the way Dick, I believe Kipling was more influenced by music hall songs than folk songs: he lived opposite a music hall in the early 1890s, and visited regularly. However, the rhythms of the music hall to some extent grew out of the same street ballad tradition that we now consider 'folk', so the connection is there.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Goatboy
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 06:08 PM

Interesting to hear his speaking voice - closer to RP than one might have guessed from the records. The exaggerated regional accent he used when singing was clearly as affected as the bleat.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 06:04 PM

Second instalment up now - two songs from the same interview - Death of Bill Brown and Goodbye Old Paint.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIDkhEIUveQ

Not the best quality in the world, but as I say the VHS isn't that much better - and by YouTube average I'd say this is around 8/10. I'll persevere with the tape in like manner as time allows. Next up a snippet from the Maritime England Suite featuring Dolly Collins & Ursula Pank (nee Smith).

I don't think I've got a recording of him doing You Can't Always Get What You Want, but I certainly remember him doing it as an encore (with borrowed guitar) whilst sporting an image of Brian Jones on his vest around the time Psychic TV immortalised Jones as Godstar. Reminds of Spleen sporting his 'Bellamist' t-shirt at the Beech a couple of years back!

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 05:59 PM

thankyou , it was,very, interesting.
he talks about Kipling, I think Kipling wrote his poems to a rhythym, which is why they worked as songs, is there any evidence that Kipling was aware of folk songs?or is Peter stating what he wants to believe is the truth.
I think he is right, that it is a good thing that folk music should include political and non political songs.
to be honest,I wouldnt particularly like to hear political songs extolling xenophobia, but I am happy to hear songs of social comment.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 05:24 PM

Many thanks. A great man. (I'd love to have heard his version of "You can't always get what you want"!)

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 11:12 AM

Suibhne

I really appreciate you taking the time to put this up.

Thanks,
Ed

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 10:50 AM

Thanks Sean, I really enjoyed that

Les

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 10:35 AM

Thank you.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 09:33 AM

Okay.

A bit poorly today so I spent the morning pointing my wee camera at the TV screen whilst playing the Peter Bellamy VHS. Not perfect quality, but then again the original tape isn't really that much better, so I judge it acceptable in the circumstances. Part One is up one YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bt3tKhVXBc

Part two - two songs - will be following shortly...

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 03:09 PM

i) Love the bleat; love the Killen too.

ii) I've been losing sleep over De Selby's theory of molecular interchange for some years now. For this reason alone I don't ride bicycles, though have noted how regular travellers on Blackpool Trams have a certain tram-like lurch to their walking gait.

iii) London Waterman - you heard Bob Roberts sing this? You may forget the rest, though PB's particular garnish is more than acceptable, but it remains very much Bob's.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: raymond greenoaken
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 12:56 PM

"He didn't "always" ~~ at various times, I heard Pete describe Martin Carthy, Nic Jones, Paul Brady and Mike Waterson as the best revival singer. But, indeed, he certainly regarded Nic very highly."

Fair play, michael – I should have said "more than once". And we'd probably have to add Louis Killen to that list.

As for the "bleat". Cards on the table– I like the bleat. Love it, actually, and can't see why anyone has a problem with it. It adds something indefinable but essential. And I don't hear it as a tremolo effect but as a sort of chuckle, always inserted at exactly the appropriate point. It came from Harry cox, of course, but PB does something quintessentially..er.. Bellamyesque with it.

Let's hear it for the bleat!

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 12:55 PM

ah but could that be the problem that suibhne has an identity crisis, I hope he doesnt think that he is becoming like the policeman// bicycle in the third policeman.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 12:35 PM

And "quickly" really means "as quickly as possible consistent with getting something decent at the end of it", I'm not demanding haste at all costs! Just another way of saying "yes please", really.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 12:33 PM

Sorry, just got distracted there by the thought of Suibhne's Bellamy tape.

What I wanted to say was in reply to CS, about the 'bleat'. I think my introduction to Bellamy solo was the song "the London Waterman", which he does magnificently but... um... it's a bit... y'know... raucous, and, er... bleaty. Some time later I came across the song again, this time sung by June Tabor, and immediately had to learn it. Once I'd got the words and the tune off I started really listening to how the song sounded when I was singing it; I knew I wanted to do something different from June Tabor's version, which is very nice but a bit too pretty, and that meant being a bit declamatory here and a bit more emphatic there... At that point a lightbulb went off - so that was what Bellamy was doing!

This doesn't explain the actual tremolo, I have to admit, and that does get in the way when you're not used to it. But I think it was all part of his way of getting a performance out of every song.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 12:28 PM

Quickly means playing the tape whilst pointing my wee camera at the TV screen. People actually do this, and it works, up to a point anyway as you might imagine. None of the video footage is exactly high quality (badly edited 10th generation dub) so, I'll have a think & see how it turns out. There are places who'll do a digital transfer for you onto DVD-R, but I've heard there is a significant loss of sound.

Also on this tape is as documentary on Cox & Larner. Maybe I should invite everyone over for viewing? Bring your own crisps, pop & cake...

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 12:20 PM

"Quickly"?

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 11:34 AM

Odd as in aesthetically disparate let's say, to my ears anyway; odd as in surprising, but always good to know of course, and a lovely anecdote from HenryP besides. Oddness too, it would seem, is highly subjective and probably best not analysed too closely.

Meanwhile, I'm sitting here looking at the Peter Bellamy VHS on the shelf wondering how best I might get it up onto YouTube...

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 11:14 AM

Suibhne ~~ I was not criticising your opinions qua opinions; nor in any way questioning or impugning your right to hold them. It was just that I was exercised as to why you should consider it "odd"
("Odd that as I've never got Nic Jones at all," were your exact words) that they should have been different from Pete's. I mean, they would be, wouldn't they? ~~ or anyhow they well might ~~ as you were two different people.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 10:33 AM

I must confess that PB's bleatyness doesn't strike the right chords with me, but I do think his arrangements for Kipling's poems are fabulous and far more engaging than any self-penned 'folk songs' I've heard. I could happily learn much of what I've heard. Harp Song of the Dane Women remains one of the most inspired and other pieces of music I know, and much-like Mad Maudlin's Search (as referenced by Suibne above) is a song I'm still a tad too daunted by it's potency, to properly tackle.

As for the rest of the revival, it's still pretty much a 'meh' from me. As I've said elsewhere, barring a Pentangle compilation lately reclaimed from my teens, the odd youtube and some purloined research materials, I'm pretty much still revival-free in my listening habits. I'll no doubt ditch most of what I've purloined once I get around to tidying up iTunes, but I'll certainly be keeping my PB bootlegs.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 10:02 AM

I've think I've heard them all over the years - I know I've certainly had most them in my keeping at one time or another, though right now I can account for Ballads and Songs, and the eponymous second album on Trailer. I have mixed feelings about his ballad settings, though I'm not about to raise any sort of stink over it (though I might over his tune for Mad Maudlin / Mad Tom o' Bedlam purely because it's the one you're most likely to hear it sung to at the expense of the original which is too fine a melody to go unsung).

Just personal taste though; I think it all depends how receptive you are to certain artists when you first hear them. Or maybe it's just folk guitarists I have a problem with - Bellamy excepted, natch, where the occasional appearance of a borrowed guitar for Ramblin' Robin, or Devil Got Your Man, or even Motherless Child made you sit up & ponder, or else give thanks for his trusty anglo. Also on my father-in-law's folk compilation the other day was Bert Jansch singing Blackwaterside which didn't do it for me either, so you might think of me as a lost cause in this respect!

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: pavane
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 08:48 AM

Suibhne, have you heard Nic's first four albums (now unobtainable)? His style evolved considerably in his later albums, and became more what I would call 'laid-back'. But in the early 70's his gigs were much more lively.

And he was also responsible, at least in part, for writing tunes to songs he found in broadsides, many of which have been taken up very widely.

(Sorry for the thread creep)

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 07:13 AM

My deepest apologies, MtheGM - I must always remember to preface my comments with an IMHO in order to clarify the entirely subjective nature of what it is I'm expressing here. In my world Nic Jones and Paul Brady don't feature much beyond the easy-listening folk racks of a few regretable purchases made long ago, whereas I've got Peter Bellamy up there on the shelf with Sun Ra, Rahsaan Roland Kirk and Jim Eldon. I have revival issues anyway, unresolved since I was 13 and used to listen to Jim Lloyd in a state of abject despair in the hope of hearing some actual folk songs that weren't mired in MOR gloss. But that's entirely subjective too, deriving from a love of Traditional Folk Song and the Traditional Singers thereof, which is why the singing of PB made such perfect sense to me and why I'm surprised to read of his affection for the singing of Nic Jones and Paul Brady which never did. IMHO of course.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 06:37 AM

What's 'odd' about it, Suibhne? We were talking about Peter Bellamy's tastes, not yours. Why is it in any way 'odd' that they should not be identical?

Regards

~M~

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 06:22 AM

Odd that as I've never got Nic Jones at all, though his fiddle accompaniments on MIOG are, indeed, the very pip, he seems to belong in a very different world to Peter Bellamy. Paul Brady? Never got him at all either, though I've always enjoyed Martin Carthy and could listen to Mike Waterson all day. Here's a thing - our car sprung a leak the other day necessitating we borrow Rachel's folks' car, in the CD player of which is a folk compilation featuring (amongst other things) ISB's First Girl I Loved, the Young Tradition's Lyke Wake Dirge and Martin Carthy's Scarborough Fair, the latter of which I'd never heard before, though I've heard plenty about it. I have a mind to burn off a Bellamy disk and put in there for a treat when they come home from their holiday...

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 03:40 PM

He didn't "always" ~~ at various times, I heard Pete describe Martin Carthy, Nic Jones, Paul Brady and Mike Waterson as the best revival singer. But, indeed, he certainly regarded Nic very highly.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: raymond greenoaken
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 03:34 PM

er.."was" mutual. You know what I meant.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: raymond greenoaken
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 03:33 PM

"Nic Jones was always keen to promote the folk club where he was appearing, Before he finished his act, he would ask, Who's on next week? He would then encourage everyone not to miss that artist.
On one occasion in Southport, the answer came back, Peter Bellamy.
Oh, said Nic, Who's on the week after?"

Brilliant! PB always described NJ as his "favourite English revival singer". Clearly the respect we mutual...

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: Mick Tems
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 06:45 AM

Peter stayed with me a number of times, but my fondest memory was at Bracknell Festival, just after his American tour, when he proudly wore a gaudy, light-flashing Rolling Stones T-shirt which he'd spent some dollars on! He truly was one in a million.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 06:30 PM

"Plus the songs themselves are quite monstrously good, and the arrangements perfectly honed. Nic jones' fiddle accompaniments are the very pip."

Nic Jones was always keen to promote the folk club where he was appearing, Before he finished his act, he would ask, Who's on next week? He would then encourage everyone not to miss that artist.

On one occasion in Southport, the answer came back, Peter Bellamy.
Oh, said Nic, Who's on the week after?

I'd give anything to see Peter again.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 08:00 AM

Make that THIS

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 07:58 AM

Oddly enough my favourite on MIOG remains The Queen's Men; the rest of it is as anomalous a piece of wyrdness as you could wish for in the context of folk. Seminal I calls it, with respect of the primal muse that moved RK to write such stuff in the first place, let alone for PB to give it such chthonic resonance. When will it see long overdue re-issue from the Argo vaults in a gleaming digital edition with OA&K? Maybe when some mobile phone company uses Song of the Men's Side as an advert soundtrack. For those who don't know THIS is a good place to find out.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: raymond greenoaken
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 07:11 AM

Well, I'll throw my potsherd in for Merlin's Isle Of Gramarye (1972). Fairly early in his recorded oeuvre – he was only 28 at the time - but its impact for me was tied in with the fact that it's the first of his records on which the sheer blast and serrated edges of his voice had been captured successfully on tape. Suibhne's right, of course – you had to hear him in the flesh to experience the Bellamy pipes at full operating capacity.

Plus the songs themselves are quite monstrously good, and the arrangements perfectly honed. Nic jones' fiddle accompaniments are the very pip. If Pan played the fiddle he's sound like that. And then of course there's Harp Song Of The Dane Women, on which PB sailed well beyond the sight of land and produced something the like of which had never been heard before, a thing of sheer uncompromising otherness. And all with a cheap guitar and a bodhran made out of a garden seive.

Having said all that, Songs And Rummy Conjurin' Tricks captures a giant in his pomp. His last thrill and testament!

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 04:27 AM

My only problem with Both Sides Then is Martin Carthy's bass; shame they couldn't have got a more convincing bottom end in there and it would have been perfect.

I could have got my my copy of Keep On Kipling signed, but felt a bit weird about it at the time - a mixture of being in awe of the man yet wanting to acknowledge his humanity at the same time. Hey, remember that time a few years back when you were reduced to grovelling for a doss from strangers at The Bridge? Well, I'm the one they sent you up to bar to seek out. Hadn't heard of you then of course but thanks to my mate Raymond I'm now of the opinion that you're the most important singer on the scene and as a performer you generate as much excitement as the Art Ensemble of Chicago who I saw last week in Leeds by the way...

Yes - Songs & Rummy Conjurin' Tricks - which is a fine piece of work & always a firm favourite over the years since his untimely demise which made it his swan song thus giving it that unique status in any body of work, which I have to say it more than adequately lives up to. I can't help feeling there was something else on his mind that night - maybe like recording the near-perfect live album??