BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 11:53 AM

Reggie-

People in Japan are far more vulnerable to radiation leaks from this troubled nuclear power complex than people in the States or in Europe.


The transcript of from the Union of Concerned Scientists conference call on Monday, March 21, has now been posted. I find it all interested (go to the website and click on "nuclear") but here are some excepts:

INTRODUCTION

"MR. LOCHBAUM: Good morning. The power line that was run to the site on last Friday has allowed workers to attempt to start reenergizing safety equipment on Units 1 and 2. Those efforts have been slowed by the need to initially proceed cautiously because of the water-spraying efforts, both from the ground and from the air, into the spent fuel pools on Units 3 and 4. That required workers to shield the electrical cables and connections from the water that was being sprayed about. Then the efforts were further complicated by the fact that the hydrogen explosions or some damage within the reactor buildings hence required workers to run temporary lines to connect power from the line that was run to individual components in those structures. So, that's slowing down the efforts to restore a more conventional cooling system for Units 1 and 2. Units 3 and 4 continue to be the -- the priority continues to be spent fuel pool. Efforts over the weekend to get water back into the spent fuel pools largely succeeded. The radiation levels have gone down. There are indications that water in those pools has been restored and the temperatures have stabilized, whereas before, they were heading upwards. So, those conditions on 3 and 4, the spent fuel pools, have been much better than they were just a few days ago. On Units 5 and 6, the spent fuel pools have been -- their cooling systems have been reenergized. They're running. The temperatures have not only decreased, but there's now plenty of margin available that wasn't there just last week. So, conditions are improving across the board.

(snip!)

SPENT FUEL POOL DISCUSSION

REPORTER: Hi, folks. Thanks again for having these briefings. They're really useful. I'm going to ask sort of a design question. Can you talk really about whether the design of the Mark I, or Mark I, specifically the placement of the spent fuel rods containing fuel at a position that's largely above the reactor, made this situation worse. There's been a lot of sort of graphics about how these things are arranged. And in answering, if you could address whether the United States should be worried about this design in installed U.S. reactors.

MR. LOCHBAUM: This is Dave Lochbaum. The arrangement with the spent fuel pool up in upper elevations of the reactor building was a contributing factor, but the larger factors were the fact that the spent fuel pool cooling system was not -- or the spent fuel pool cooling system was not designed to withstand earthquakes. A lot of support systems are also not designed to be powered off of anything other than the electrical grid. So, when the earthquake and tsunami took out the formal power and the backup power, it caused a lot of damage to equipment, nonsafety-related equipment or nonseismically supported equipment, at the plant, the pools were left with nothing that could cool the water.
In addition, the loss of some of the support systems, like the air system, meant that it was possible that the inflatable seals around the gates in the pools deflated and allowed water to leak out of the pool, plus that's in a not very robust building. Unlike the reactor core that's within a concrete wall that's four to five foot thick, it's up there with sheet metal siding around it.

So, in addition, if the water level in the spent fuel pool did drop below the top of the irradiated fuel and hydrogen was generated, inside the main containment building, there is systems to deal with hydrogen, to detect it, to measure what the concentration is, and to do something about it. In the reactor building, there is no such equipment to deal with hydrogen that's produced, and, therefore, the hydrogen explosions occurred. If we were in the situation that they were, the design didn't give the workers much chance to deal with the situation they faced."

I was shocked to read that these plants were licensed to function with no back-up coolant system for their spent fuel pools, in the event of a loss of power to the complex.

Evidently the 7th spent fuel pool, referred to as the common spent fuel pool, the one that is stuffed with older fuel rods, has elevated temperatures but not high enough to attract any concern on the part of plant supervisors.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:22 PM

Power lines to all six nuclear reactor units at Japan's quake-stricken Fukushima Daiichi complex have been connected, its operator said, but electricity has not yet been turned on.

Tokyo Electric Power Co (TEPCO) warned on Tuesday that equipment still had to be checked before power could be properly reconnected, which would mark a significant step in bringing the reactors back under control.

Engineers have also been able to cool a spent fuel pool that was nearly boiling, bringing it back to 105 degrees after dumping 18 tonnes of seawater into a holding pool.

However fears have been raised over the possibility of radiation in seawater near the reactors in northeastern Japan, with reports that some radioactivity has been detected in the sea.

Experts are concerned about sea water that has been used to cool the reactors and their spend fuel ponds after the 9.0 magnitude earthquake and subsequent tsunami on March 11.

Radioactive iodine in the sea samples was 126.7 times the allowed limit, while caesium was 24.8 times over, Kyodo news agency said. But TEPCO said that still posed no immediate danger.

"I'm interested to know how this water is being disposed... if it is being disposed or just allowed to drain to sea," Najmedin Meshkati, a nuclear and environmental expert at the University of Southern California, told the Reuters news agency.

"This is now radioactive waste water. Has there been any measurement of its radiation effect?"

Officials have acknowledged that some of the water used to cool the reactors spilled back into sea.

Hidehiko Nishiyama, deputy director-general at the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, said the radioactivity in the sea could be both from water used to cool the plant and airborne particles from the reactors.

"Personally, I think the latter is more likely," he told a news conference.




That is from a 33-minute-ago news release from Aljazeera.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:42 PM

A sheet metal building? Not even concrete?

Brownie, where are you when we need you.

I might have to send in the Kardashians next. But I am frankly running out of people to send. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:50 PM

Charly Noble: "There was considerably more worldwide fall out from the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and some different radioactive products such as Strontium-90, than say from the Chernobyl meltdown, explosion and resultant fire."

Well, as far as the fallout from those reaching the West Coast, do you think that California produced a bunch of mutant freaks after-wards??...Come to think of it, what am I saying????!!?? Hell YES!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 01:32 PM

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/26e02c04-50d2-11e0-9227-00144feab49a.html#axzz1HLnJVzRZ

Interesting article. I wonder in days to come how much we will find out was incompetence, as would be expected from a failing communist country for example, and how much was essentially organized crime. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: reggie miles
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 01:37 PM

I was surprised to learn that China is in the process of building many more nuclear power plants. This, despite the fact that they had one of the deadliest earthquakes on recent record, where nearly a quarter of a million died as a result.

Tangshan, China
July 28, 1976
Magnitude: 7.5
Death Toll: 242,000
(The casualties in this may have been higher. The Chinese government is thought to have deliberately understated the numbers for political reasons.)

I know that the need for electrical power is great and that modernization is tied to that need but nuclear power is not intelligent technology. It is flawed technology, that places great risk on our doorsteps.

"The worst earthquakes in history, in terms of the death toll have occurred in China. In addition to lying along the earthquake prone "ring of fire", China also has historically had a high population density. This virtually ensures that the highest earthquake casualties will be in China. It also is helpful that the Chinese have long had efficient bureaucracies, which were able to document the casualties as long ago as the 1500s. "

http://www.epicdisasters.com/index.php/site/comments/the_worlds_deadliest_earthquakes/

That's not to mention that China has had six of the top ten deadliest floods in about the last 100 years. The latest, in 1975, where nearly a quarter of a million lost their lives.

http://www.epicdisasters.com/index.php/site/comments/the_worlds_worst_floods_by_death_toll/

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 01:58 PM

Power has been extended ("connected") to the Fukushima complex, but it will be days before all functions are tested and repaired.
Japan Times-
White smoke- possibly steam- billowed continuously from buildings housing No. 2 and No. 3 reactors, but Tepco said work could proceed if radiation levels didn't surge at the site.
Defense Minister Kitazawa said he believes the smoke rising from the No. 2 reactor was vapor given off by the water that had been sprayed, while the blackish smoke briefly detected Tuesday at No. 3 was likely rubble that caught fire.

Ventilation systems to filter radioactive materials from tha air are among key equipment that needed the electrical power.

Tepco hopes to restore power to data measuring systems and functions by Wednesday and by Thursday to the No. 3 and 4 reactors, according to a spokesman for the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency.
Tepco said work was ongoing to connect pipes to outside electrical supplies to pump seawater to circulation systems at No. 5 and 6, and the operation should be completed Wednesday.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 02:15 PM

Who is lieing?
How do they lie?
Why do they lie?
What they lie about will always be about guarding an investment at any cost.

I will begin by pointing out a great and symbolic lie.

The second invasion of Iraq was about to begin and Secretary of State Colin Powell was responsible for dressing the coming war in the newest fashion of legitimacy by displaying fake vials of biological warfare weapons and alleged pictures of nuclear weapon factories. He was about to make his announcement to the world of the coming war, not to members of the United Nations but to the American public. He did so in the lobby of the UN instead of in the empty Security Council Chamber.
There was a problem. A huge 150 square foot tapestry was hung in the lobby. It is said that TV cameramen felt that the tapestry would distract the television audience or at least hinder color contrast from the spirit of the message that was to be delivered. The cameramen insisted that the UN provide a solution to the problem. Finally a baby blue polyester curtain three times larger than the painting and bearing the UN logo hid the monstrosity from view. Who would be surprised to learn that the cameramen were from FOX news?
For me that one act symbolizes the thin veil of civility of the 21st century. The enlarged tapestry reproduction of the grandiose painting by Pablo Picasso reveals the savage inhuman disregard for rending flesh from bone of animals and people by the explosions of remote impersonal bombs and artillery that defines much of World War two.   The blue veil covering the picture reveals the belief in the old public relations philosophy that perception is reality. The original painting took a lifetime and the lives of those killed by modern warfare to create. To cover it up it took $300 dollars of polyester and twenty minutes to hang.

Be it the thin blue veil or the thin blue line, civility is as fragile as tissue paper. The human mind will not remember a simple stated truth if it is delivered by a calm peaceful speaker, but if a gesticulating bellicose shouting orator or merely a generally emotional speaker should shout an obvious untruth, that untruth will be remembered with a dose of adrenaline to the listener. In a short time the truth is forgotten and the lie is remembered. With repetition of the lie it becomes an embedded perception of reality. A lie becomes reality within the corrupted memories of the lied to, but not in the reality of the world we share.

Whose voice is heard most often with the most lies? The answer is the voice of the multi billionaires. Billionaires have the same motivations to prosper or do crazy things like anyone else. Only the means are different. A wage earner might scrape a stranger's car in the parking lot and take off without even leaving a note. A billionaire may have private investments in nuclear plants that have accidents and makes sure that he and the company cover it up and are not held responsible. The difference between a fender bender and 25,000 years of deadly radioactive pollution is great, but the human decision making is the same.

Constant warfare, nuclear holocausts in the making, the destruction of democracies, the soaking and sacrificing of workers and the middle class are all Billionaire's games. Besides democracy It is becoming clear that the next threat to the exclusive community of trillionaires is the internet, with its social networking and private entrepreneurial advances by those not under their direct management and control.   Net neutrality is a war the will eventually win. Trillionaires won the war of" too big to fail". Since the 2008 capture of 90% of all money in the world, the entities responsible have in fact become even bigger and more capable of failure that will again be the burden placed upon everyone but themselves.

What happens when multi billionaires who buy and sell national politicians and trillionaires who buy and sell nations, disagree? Whatever it is, you do not have a vote.

How multibillionaires lie is a matter of buying a product from their think tanks. If its a think tank is is usually devoted to a product to maximize the profits of the wealthy and organize events to proceed in a more profitable manner in the future.
In my opinion most of these houses of research do not consider nationalism or patriotism as anything except factors to exploit.
They are the Goebbles of "Banking and Industry".
Think tanks for the most part are just houses of invented lies for profit.

In the spectre of nuclear disasters:
I advise
it is wise
to realize
the lies
are designed to make you feel good and safe and possibly annoyed with those silly frightened enviormentalists who are nothing but ignorant cowards.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 02:19 PM

"Tepco said work was ongoing to connect pipes to outside electrical supplies to pump seawater to circulation systems at No. 5 and 6, and the operation should be completed Wednesday."

Which means that the utility has given up on salvaging Units 5 and 6 as well.

Utility spokesmen were also quoted on either MSNBC or CNN (I forget which) as saying it might be as long as two weeks before they were able to turn on the electricity within all the reactor units. They need to be sure the hydrogen gas is completely vented (and not continuing to be produced), that the electrical circuits still function or can be bypassed, and that the various electrical motors still function or can be replaced.

I do wonder what level of review will be coordinated by the NRC to assess how our 104 nuclear power plants would function with a similar loss of pumping capacity because of earthquake, tsunami, or other reason. It seems likely to me that the spent fuel pools are every bit as vulnerable as has been proven in the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 02:44 PM

An editorial in Japan Times, March 23, titled "Nuclear Power No Solution," by Brahma Chellaney, pointed out serious drawbacks to the push for nuclear energy.
Nuclear power is highly capital-intensive. "It has high up-front capital costs, long lead times for construction and commissioning, and drawn-out amortization periods that put off private investors." (Many are partly or largely government-funded and subsidized).

Nuclear reactors are water-intensive. This is one reason for locating them near coastlines (thus exposed to natural disasters).
Light-water reactors (like Japan and U. S.), which use water as the main coolant, produce most of the world's nuclear power. "The huge quantities of local water that LWRs use for their operations become hot-water outflows, which are pumped back into rivers, lakes and oceans."
When droughts and other causes deplete the water supply, nuclear companies must but outside power. "Indeed, during the 2003 heat wave, Electricite de France, which operates 58 reactors- the majority on ecologically sensitive rivers like the Loire- was compelled to buy power on the European spot market."
In 2006, operators in western Europe obtained exemptions from environmental regulations so that they could discharge overheated water into natural ecosystems, effecting fisheries.

Nuclear power in France supplies 78 percent of the country's electricity, but withdraws half of France's total freshwater consumption.

Freshwater scarcity is a growing problem. A water guzzler, this problem equals that of radiation and spent fuel problems.

Brahma Chellaney wrote "Nuclear Proliferation," Longman, 1993, and "Water. Asia's New Battlefield," Georgetown University Press, forthcoming.
Brahma Chellaney is Professor of Strategic Studies at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi. He has held appointments at Harvard, Johns Hopkins University of Advanced International Studies, the Brookings Institution and the Australian National University.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 02:50 PM

Is there any reason to believe that if this plant had been using the best known technology and was built to withstand the worst case "expected" scenario that things would be any different? Sometimes shit just happens. Japan needs power. Nuclear energy provides an economical option. What other options (safer options and think Exxon Valdez before you answer) were available when these plants were built?
Just a thought. And I don't subscribe to to the irrational diatribes about greed and politicinas. The people of Japan chose this option. As have the people of many other countries including the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 02:55 PM

This may have been posted before. Japan had 55 reactors (before the tsunami), providing 35 percent of Japan's electricity. All are in coastal locations.
Construction of four new complexes has been delayed for one year to allow for study of the Fukushima disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 03:12 PM

Sinsull

your quote "irrational diatribes" are a hysterical if not very sad example of how people ignore the 'Uber Truth' of a situation and remain mired in the muck of manufactured contrary versions of a story and an ignorance to the divide and conquer methods of lying by the owner class.

Writing from the highest perspective possible of the how and why things like nuclear disasters happen and will continue to happen is lost on you, If stupidity is the cause it may be misunderstood forever, but not to everyone.

I trust someone here does see the scholarship, common sense and perhaps the simple genius in my "diatribes" and "mini scripts" that explain more than an exposition of data. I believe it is important if not imperative to see the big picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 03:40 PM

White smoke means a new pope has been elected. Vive la papa. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 03:56 PM

Sinsull-

The comparison can be made by you and others readily in this case. Compare what happened between Fukushima-1 nuclear complex with what happened at the newer Fukushima-2 nuclear complex located seven miles away, up or down the coast. Both plants were knocked off- line by the earthquake and were flooded by the tsunami. But operators regained control of Fukushima-2 without hydrogen explosions or having to make use of salt water as an improvised coolant. That's the easy answer to your questions. The details we won't learn for years.

My preliminary conclusion is that the newer technology may well have provided Fukushima-2 the extra edge to survive. But maybe its plant operators made fewer blunders. Or maybe the damage from the earthquake and tsunami was significantly less.

"Irrational diatribes," I agree, add little clarity to the situation but I do believe there is ample blame that can be and should be appropriately focused on the designers, the engineers, the owners, and the politicians in that order.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 04:13 PM

All the Mark IV reactors were designed to have been closed and entombed almost 20 years ago. The decision to keep them open and running beyond their lifespan and operational capacity was made by who? You know who. The owners of this PRIVATE and deadly facility.

The 1958 Mark IV technology still shares one factor with 2010 nuclear plant designs. The common factor is that the waste has no place to go. France reprocesses the fuel pellets but even that process leaves dangerous products that have no proactical solution to keep life away from it for the next 25,000 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 04:15 PM

Designers = engineers. The faults lie soley with them EVEN IF they were pressured to cut costs by the owners or politicians.

Canuck engineers wear an iron ring for a reason. That ring can be taken away if they mess up and not only even if they would have had to quit their job because of the "owners or politicians" but also for not fighting against a wrong after they quit their jobs. Here, it is an engineer's duty to uphold the safety of the public. That is not to say any other engineers are less loyal to public safety. Just to say that here, it is enforced under law by the engineers.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 04:35 PM

"Tokyo Electric Power Company says it has restored the electricity supply for the control room of the Number 3 reactor at the quake-damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant."

Soooo... each reactor building has a control room... again the info is sketchy... does that mean they have to run separate supplies to each control room of each reactor? That seems odd to me if that is actually the case (as the report may indicate).

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 04:59 PM

They were no where near to "worst case expected" scenario in terms of design and building.

They were no where near to minimal competency and public safety in the early days.

It sounds like the government was handcuffed by the electric company and the most commensense reactions were not taken for days due to electric company stonewalling and trying to protects its declining assets rather than the population.   This of course made rescue of tsunami victims more difficult due to radiation factor, evacuations for radiation reasons, fear of responders to go to a hot locale etc.

I am totally unsympathetic to the criminals and nincompoops as this plays out. But it will provide some good lessons for the rest of the world. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 05:01 PM

Thanks for the response, Charley. If time proves that the plant design enabled Plant 2 to survive intact, would you go so far as to say that the others plants could be updated and allowed to continue operating? Not trying to put you on the spot but the reality is that the people of Japan need electricity. It will be provided one way or another. I don't believe that tidal power is doable yet. Just wondering about their options.

Donuel, it is interesting that you immediately took my reference to hysterical diatribes as a personal critism of you. I named no names. Does the shoe fit?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 05:04 PM

One of the more fascinating comments on this nuclear crisis came from a Nagasaki survivor who felt that people were over reacting. If you can find the piece, read it. I will look for a link. An amazing lady with a startling opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 05:24 PM

It is impossible to know yet whether people are overreacting or underreacting. We do not know what will happen. And unless it is independently verified, we do not know what the truth is. It is not going to be volunteered. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 05:31 PM

Each reactor is a separate entity although a complex with 6 reactors (e. g., Fukushima Daiichi) may be serviced with water, etc. from a central source.
Fukushima Daini complex, 7 miles distant, had design differences, including height of tsunami barriers, resistance to tremors, etc.

Somewhere above, I noted that the tsunami provision at the Daini complex was 6.51 meters but wave reached 7 meters, not causing too much damage.
At Daiichi, the severely damaged complex, the provision was 10 meters, but some estimates of the wave were more than 20 meters (from Univ. Tokyo).

The maximum ground acceleration near unit 3 of Daiichi reactor was 507 gal- or 507 centimeters /second squared- well above the plant's design value of 449 gal, according to the Japan Atomic Industrial Forum (20 March report).

Engineers use historical data to aid in design specifications, but the 9.0 quake was unprecedented. Japanese engineers are as good as any in the world; I doubt that engineers anywhere would have made provision for a quake of that magnitude at that location.

Figures released on design---- specs--- reviewed in michelekearneynuclearwire.blogspot.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 05:47 PM

The SHAW Group Inc. is teaming with Toshiba to provide mitigation, remediation and recovery services for the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear complex.

The SHAW Group provided aid at Three Mile Island, Chernobyl. It is a "global provider of engineering, construction, technology, fabrication, remediation and support services for clients in the energy, chemicals, environmental, infrastructure and emergency response industries."
It is a Fortune 500 company with annual revenues in 2010 of $7 billion. It has 27,000 employees worldwide and in a leader in the power and design sectors.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:03 PM

Digression-
Canadian engineers, iron ring.
The Ritual of the Calling of an Engineer, written by Rudyard Kipling, is administered by the Corporation of the Seven Wardens, to the end of directing newly qualified Canadian engineers towards a consciousness of their profession and its social significance.
http://www.ironring.ca

There are a number of engineering societies in all countries.

TENPES (Thermal and Nuclear Power Engineering Society (Japan)

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 07:09 PM

Historical data? Do they not consult with geologists? There was a huge earthquake off Washington coast hundreds of years ago..seconds in geological time or dog years..tsunami reached Japan. Again, I say that it was common conversation in Washington State to expect a really big earthquake..certainly not a 7 or 7.5..huge..do they not have the same advice? I would cut them some slack at a 20 point earthquake, but for sure not a 9. Not out of the realm of possibility at all, in fact expected. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 07:12 PM

Lights back on in reactor three.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 07:28 PM

Outlineing the obvious may seem siphmoric but I have seen proof there are people who do not know the fundamental problems at the heart of past present and future man made disasters in the making.


Japan's agency to monitor and enforce safety concerns is the same agency charged with promoting nuclear energy and international sales of reactor parts.

The US has the Nuclear Regulatory Agency which for legal reasons is called an independent agency. The only time it was even slightly independent of privatizzed nuclear companies was for 3 years following 3 mile Island. After that the 191st (Newt Gingrich COngress) told the NRC that if they didn;t stop fining companies for safety hazards and incidents the Congress would defund them forever.

They behaved well ever since.


The enemies of the ownership society, AKA the Billionaires club, are anyone who supporsts labor rights, social justice, economic justice, democracy, goverment regulations, Product safety laws, EPA, consumer rights and or anything that minimizes profits no matter what the consequences,

Sure it seems irrational to most of us to allow such extreme sacrifices of lives, land and sea for so little profit in the grand scheme of things.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 07:38 PM

Other enemies to the billionaire club are Doctors beyond borders, Union of concerned scientists and npr. They are willing to confront power with facts that are not always favorable to Corporate controlers.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 07:54 PM

Someone mentioned that the 4 to 30 billion dollars in economic losses to the owners of TEPCO will be covered by insurance.

What about the millions of people and their homes?
What about the air land sea and rivers?
What about the 7th generation in which the accumlated genetic damage will be at its height?

Will the owners insurance money cover any of that?

nopw.

That my friends is what the Japanese people were sold.



The things I heard the Japanese victims ask for are safe food, gasoline and any credible source of information, particularly about the reactor dangers and consequences.

Of those 3, people here could provide at least some partial information. What you may not have at hand easily are the radiation measurments of food through out Japan but we may be able to at least give them more information thatn Japanese television. Most of their devies have stopped working because they can not charge batteries or use their home computer. It is my hope that we could help provide better information to the disaster victims regarding Fukushima that they currently are getting.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:05 PM

We should definitely be sending windup radios and flashlights and solar chargers..or they should be made available somehow. And I am thinking about sending the boys from Kenya who make the windmills out of pop cans to help rebuild their energy grid. And Crocodile Dundee but I am not sure if he is real or not but what the heck. I can see I have a gender imbalance here though except for the Kardashians. I think I will also send the Celtic Women.   mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:11 PM

999-

"Lights back on in reactor three" doesn't mean that the pumps, valves, motors necessary to run what's left of Unit 3 are functional. Yes, it's a positive step but not one that should reassure anyone who is concerned about the safety of the entire complex.

I apologize if I'm taking this event too seriously but then I'm been trained by my parents since 1969 not to take the nuclear industry for granted. There's more to be learned from the accident, and I'm well aware that most people will forget the lessons learned in a few short years, as they did with Three Mile Island and Chernobyl.

I also share Donuel's respect for the Union of Concerned Scientists. Reviewing what they post every day in their transcripts of the media teleconference is crucial to understanding how this accident happened and what its impact may be. It's a tedious process and I have yet to see a report published anywhere that indicated that a reporter had digested the information provided. They do occasionally ask the right questions.

Case in point: how many people noticed that a high proportion of the radioactivity coming from the stricken reactors at Fukushima 1 nuclear complex is in the form of Iodine 131, instead of cesium 137? That's an important fact. If the radioactivity were coming primarily from the spent fuel pools it would be predominately cesium 137. That's because the iodine 131 has a much shorter half-life and has already dissipated in the spent fuel pool. Therefore, it's reasonable to conclude that the iodine 131 has come from the reactors, either from venting or primary containment ruptures.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: number 6
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:35 PM

"I apologize if I'm taking this event too seriously but then I'm been trained by my parents since 1969 not to take the nuclear industry for granted. There's more to be learned from the accident, and I'm well aware that most people will forget the lessons learned in a few short years, as they did with Three Mile Island and Chernobyl."

Exactly .... I fully agree Charley.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:48 PM

I don't think you're taking it too seriously. In fact, I think most people aren't taking it seriously enough. I'm also aware the power is not on in the reactors. In fact one news agency quoted some uppity-up in their nuclear pecking order that it might take weeks or even months to get the coolant machines on-line.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:59 PM

Addenum to last post by Charley-
IAEA monitors say Japanese authorities believe that the cores have been damaged in Daiichi units 1, 2 and 3. This would explain the radioactive iodine 131. Best case scenario- venting.

A rather complete summary, dated 22 March for the last few additions:

http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999--Canadian news source
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:06 PM

"Negligible" radiation from Japan nuclear power plant detected in B.C.


Trace amounts of radiation from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant have drifted across the Pacific Ocean.


By Stephen Hui, March 22, 2011
The B.C. Centre for Disease Control is stressing that radiation originating from an earthquake-stricken nuclear power plant in Japan poses "no health risk" to people in British Columbia.

In a Monday (March 21) update on its website, the centre confirmed that it had been told by Health Canada that "minute" amounts of radiation from the Fukushima Daiichi plant were detected by monitoring stations in the province.

"The amounts of radiation from Japan detected over the past few days in BC measure 0.0000005 millisieverts, which is significantly less than those coming from other sources," Monday's update stated.

"Scientists measure exposure to ionizing radiation using a unit of measurement called a sievert. The average Canadian is exposed to between 2 and 3 millisieverts of radiation annually from background radiation."

Today (March 22), the centre said in an update: "Health Canada anticipates that the quantity of radiation reaching Canada, would be negligible and not pose a health risk to Canadians. We are expecting very slight increases in radiation, smaller than the normal day to day fluctuations until a week after the reactors are stabilized."

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:07 PM

They only need the survivors to believe their lies.

That phrase or perhaps some derivation of that phrase haunts me and I don't know why. As its stands its not as grand as Lincoln's "you can fool some of the people some of the time" phrase. Maybe it is just not finished...

They only need the survivors to believe their lies,
for the murdered dead can never slay their killers.

hmm, better but not great.




Cesium, Plutonium and Uranium pollution last a bit longer than the Iodine threat. IF the reactors split wide open with an explosion, or if #3 already has...Its a helluva thing to poison a country with radioactivity.
You take away all they have and all that their children could have had for thousands of years.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:09 PM

You are right. Now what?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:27 PM

Tell Branson of Virgin to hurry up with his planes to outer space and hotels on a suitable planet?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:56 PM

It makes me furious. There is no reason for some of suffering.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20110322/wl_time/08599206077300

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:00 PM

Collating the best info on the FUKU situation to a Japanese victim who is soley reliant on NHK TV can be done by putting it on the internet for those who can gain access. The mg suggestion was insightful. Your ideas made real is all it takes.

The thread about using Japan red cross to help and avoiding text donations that take 3 months or more to clear has some more ideas.



Being right and changing the world are two different things...

To make change the legitimate way takes revolution, fortunes and decades.
A differnt approach could be more direct. It is taught that if one really wants to get something resolved, it is best to go to the source or go to the top.

Naturally the most corrupt billionaire owners who feel they need protection have put laws, police states, domestic surveilence, phone recordings, massive internet downloads, patriot acts, private security, gated communities, off shore accounts and homes to insure their domestic tranquillity. But there is a place they all go and that is where persuasion to do the right thing can be properly and politely expedited. "Good evening sir, my name is John, John Galt...?...No sir, no relation"


I already have a CIA and FBI file so I leave it to those who can or already do swim with the whales. The details are in a fictional story of mine called 'The Impertinent Bastards'. Whats it about? Its a band that is free, and a tome for the brave.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:04 PM

It is sad but it takes at least 2 weeks to mobilize efforts to an effective degree after a disaster. Early responders and search parties are always out of proportion to the number of those in need.
It is already 12 days old

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 12:12 AM

Sandra Bullock donated one million to Japanese Aid.

Hey George Clooney, whats the deal? Haiti yes, Sudan Yes, Japan ...?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:26 AM

Water in Tokyo now unfit for babies to drink:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12825342

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 08:02 AM

According to a news report (radio) this morning Japan has turned down most offers of money and donations choosing to work with only fifteen donors. They claim they do not need financial aid. Maybe they don't.
I would have to dig but I remember reading that Japan covers housing insurance for homeowners. They were explaining why insurance companies would not take a huge hit after this disaster.That was on line.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM

More positive reports this morning in the newspapers about restoring power to the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex, tempered by how long it might take to safely reactivate the cooling machinery that has not been damaged. Interestingly enough there was also a detailed report on the issue of spent fuel pools.

"Cesium, Plutonium and Uranium pollution last a bit longer than the Iodine threat."

That is a true statement but Plutonium and Uranium pollution should only be found deposited in close proximity to the plant complex. These radioactive isotopes are far too heavy to be suspended long in a vapor plume. Oh, shit! But they could be suspended longer in liquid and drained into the sea with the salt water being used to cool the reactors and spent fuel pools. It's unlikely that the Japanese have contained the sea water for treatment after it drained out of the reactor buildings (see 999 above).

Plutonium and Uranium are deadly for tens of thousands of years, compared with the much shorter half-lives of Iodine and Cesium.

I do confess that after the Maine Yankee nuclear power plant was decommissioned in 1996 or thereabouts, I went into hibernation on this issue. Well, we did stage one final commemorative special event where we invited everyone we knew to show up with their stories and memorabilia to celebrate; Fred Small and Charlie King were also invited in to lead a few songs. It was a wonderful evening in spite of the mini-blizzard that hung just over the City of Portland and dropped a foot of snow.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 08:25 AM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42219616/ns/business-us_business/

Dry cask storage of nuclear waste (spent fuel). Lots of it to go round. Even in Maine.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 08:40 AM

Not just the spray, Charley... rain.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 09:42 AM

The Tokyo Electric Power Company, or TEPCO, says black smoke was seen rising from the No.3 reactor building at the quake-damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant at around 4:20 PM on Wednesday.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 09:45 AM

gnu-

True, rain could also wash radioactive deposits into the sea.

There are troubling reports this morning that black smoke is still being observed from the Unit 3 at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex. The utility offers no explanation about what part of this Unit 3 damaged building this smoke is coming from and what kind of isotopes are in the plume.

Charley Noble