BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 01:40 PM

NHK reports, as investigations continue into the tsunami... one town was hit with 19.9m (52') waves. Now, that just seems unfair in some way. (Yes, I know that's a bit silly to say, but it's the way I feel.)

The footage of these investigations is humbling and also fascinating from an engieering point of view. The failure modes for a number of large buildings "well designed" for tsunamis was surprising to me at first glance. They fell toward the ocean. Most which withstood (stayed vertical although obviously sustaining major damage) the initial forces were toppled by the receding waters indicating that these buildings could structurally withstand cyclical impact loading of short duration but were susceptible to the following continuous loads in the opposite direction. Yes, there certaily would be a weakening factor due to loads but, empirically, I just wouldn't have clued into that failure mode if I had not seen the videos.

That's a very short and skimpy description which leaves out many variables... pathways of receding waters concentrated by drainage contours, debris concentration in similar fashion... many other considerations.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 01:20 PM

Sendai, the city of over one million in Fukushima Prefecture, now has restored water, gas and electricity to about two-thirds of the city. Some subway lines are open and the rest are still being checked for problems.
The Nissan plant at Iwate, Fukushima Prefecture, is about to reopen and hopes to be in full production by June (produces high end Fuga = Infiniti models.

The Japanese government has told the IAEA that it has no plans to expand the evacuation zone at this time.

Japan will return to full industrial production in June, according to government ministers. The concern at present seems to be that Tokyo and other city use of air-conditioning and other increased uses in the hot and humid summer will put too much of a demand on energy supply, and 'rolling' blackouts are likely.
(The available power directed to industry? No announcements about allocations yet.)

Plans for 16 new nuclear reactors are under consideration by the government, although there is a hold on construction at present. (Type??)

Although a government announcement has been made that Fukushima Daiichi will be closed, there is still comment around that reactors 5 and 6 will be reopened after the other reactors are under control.

The above from Japan Times, BBC, and CBC.
It looks like the Japanese government wants to put the Fukushima 'problem' into the 'controlled' category as soon as possible so that normal industrial production can resume.

The CNN has been running loudly with a story that the workers at the Fukushima Daiichi plant do not have sufficient protective clothing and that they are poorly fed, at times having only crackers and an energy supplement. No other 'news' source has carried this story.

It is evident that some workers were badly exposed to radiation in water on the floors. This seems due to negligence on the part of TEPCO and poor worker training. Possible dangers should have been metered.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM

Good lord no!

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 12:55 PM

Sadly, old fears are resurfacing and refugees from the radiation affected zone are being shunned, even turned away from hospitals.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 12:26 PM

Some of the improvised methods of dealing with this disaster clearly shows there was no thinking of how to deal with a nuclear breach scenario.

Plastic wrap and concrete?
Sounds like a Saran wrap and plaster cast.

Keep pumping water...
hose it down

Bring in the robots
As if they are going to remove tousands of tons of nuclear fuel.

Hey I wish the best to any and all efforts
but there is no going back to any form of normalcy in mid Japan's east coast. Not for the food chain, not for residents.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 09:51 AM

gnu-

So we'll have to add a verse to this saga about "sending in the marines."

Well, the Japanese certainly need all the help they can get.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 09:42 AM

NHK...

The US military is sending Marines specialized in responding to nuclear emergencies to Japan to help deal with the trouble at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.

Japan's Self-Defense Force Joint Chief of Staff Ryoichi Oriki announced the measure on Thursday.

Oriki said US Defense Secretary Robert Gates has approved the sending of the 140-member Chemical Biological Incident Response Force.

The unit is trained in search-and-rescue operations and clearing highly radioactive nuclear materials.

Oriki said the unit will not necessarily take immediate action, and that the Self-Defense Forces hope to share information with them and study how it can be put into use when needed.

The US military has provided a barge capable of carrying large volumes of fresh water to keep reactors at the plant cool. It has also sent nuclear experts to Japan as part of efforts to resolve the crisis.

Thursday, March 31, 2011 19:36 +0900 (JST)

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:22 AM

The link that Jim Martin provided above is on another report for the need to further expand the mandatory evacuation zone around the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex. There is more and more evidence that the radiation readings out to 25 miles are more than twice than the "trigger" for defining the evacuation zone in and around Chernobyl. Here's a few more words on the topic from the Union of Concerned Scientists (emphasis added):

"The IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) is reporting that measured soil concentrations of Cs-137 as far away as Iitate Village, 40 kilometers northwest of Fukushima-Dai-Ichi, correspond to deposition levels of up to 3.7 megabecquerels per square meter (MBq/sq. m). This is far higher than previous IAEA reports of values of Cs-137 deposition, and comparable to the total beta-gamma measurements reported previously by IAEA and mentioned on this blog.

This should be compared with the deposition level that triggered compulsory relocation in the aftermath of the Chernobyl accident: the level set in 1990 by the Soviet Union was 1.48 MBq/sq. m."

Evidently the Union of Concerned Scientists has been primarily focusing their own energy on preparing and presenting testimony at an energy hearing in Washington, DC, this week.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 07:58 AM

Charley... yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 05:58 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12916688

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 10:23 PM

Q-

Thanks for doing the follow-up on the Fukushima-2 nuclear complex. One nuclear complex going rogue is quite enough.

Gnu-

Are you talking about a report filed with the NRC by the Union of Concerned Scientists above?

One of the reasons I get pedantic and repeat all the names over and over again is that it's easy to get totally mixed up in a thread like this one.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 09:55 PM

IS the water soluable resin flammable or impervious to heat?
It just might work where there is no heat source.

Still this sounds like the infamous glue remedy.

Is your containment vessel cracked? IS you basement floor at risk of of being melted and radioactive water is pouring throught the hole?
WELL JUST USE WHACKY GLUE
its safe and fun to use.

But wait there's more...

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 09:21 PM

U. S. is sending robotics and trained operators to attempt work in areas where radiation levels are dangerous. The remote-controlled machines have been used to conduct environmental cleanup, etc., in contaminated environments, although not on a compromised nuclear reactor.
In addition, the U. S. Energy department has sent 40 employees and 7710 kg of equipment to Japan.

Kyodo News says the Japanese government plans to spray a water-soluble resin over debris at the Fukushima Daiichi No. 1 plant to prevent radiation leaks from spreading further.

Industry minister Kaieda instructed nuclear plant operators to compile emergency safety measures to prevent radiation leaks in the event that their power and cooling devices fail.
Utilities, which operate 45 nuclear reactors nationwide excluding the Fukushima No. 1 and No. 2 plants, were instructed to compile a new safety manual and submit it to NISA by mid-April.
The Fukushima emergency developed because TEPCO could not immediately secure an alternative power source after the reactors cooling systems were disabled, or tap the huge amounts of water needed to cool spent fuel storage pools, the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry said.
Kaieda- "I want plant operators to place power supply vehicles to secure electricity and firetrucks to provide water to spent fuel storage pools and reactors in times of emergency."
Drastic new safety measures, including instructing operators to place a reserve electric system to pump seawater, and build seawalls to protect against tsunami, are requested.

Meanwhile, experts from French atomic fuel company Areva are offering advice and assistance in removing contaminated water accumulations.
Areva is the processor of the MOX fuel used in the Daiichi No. 3 reactor, shipped there in 1999.

Most of the above from the Japan Times, Thursday, March 31.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 09:14 PM

Its interesting to read the deailed speculative alternatives that might be used to clean up this mess. Some are clever, some are nuanced and some are elegant but huge.

I think in the final analysis they are going to go into fuck it mode.
Fuck it mode is just dumpings much concrete on the fucker even though the fucking poison will continue to fuck up the ocean forever.

They will brag about the tonnage of concrete used and compare it to the great pyramid and blah blah blah.


IF this had happened in a desert we would be better off.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 06:35 PM

Now they have set up a group?? and are studying use of robots or whatever. They do not seem to move with the utmost speed. Which is fine if you are playing chess but not in a situation like this. Oh I forgot. Calm heads must prevail. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 06:05 PM

Fukushima II, with 4 reactors, is 7 miles south of Fukushima I (Daiichi complex), it is referred to as the Daini complex in my posts and by NHKJapan.
Reactors 1 and 3 built by Toshiba, 2 and 4 by Hitachi.
Smoke being emitted from one of the buildings was from equipment which supplies power to a motor pump which collects outdoor water, and stopped after workers turned off the motor, according to NHK.

The Japanese government has set up 4 working groups led by Government members Fukuyama and Hosono.
The groups include members of Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, U. S. military forces stationed in Japan, and the U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
The groups are discussing measures to prevent radiation from leaking outside the Daiichi plant, and also are studying the possible use of remote-controlled unmanned equipment to prevent radiation exposure among plant workers, and use of a U. S. unmanned robot for measuring radiation levels.
They have arranged for the transport of fresh water to the complex by U. S. vessels.
NHK, March 30.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 05:17 PM

From the last update (and there's more unsettling stuff in it... like the number of incidents at warious US plants in the past which I had no knowledge of!!!)...

"The NRC looked at that. Initially, they didn't look at it very well, because unfortunately, every other page was missing from the report we sent them, because I took it to Kinko's, and they didn't duplex it. So, the NRC, three months later, had determined that our concerns had no consequences, even though page 2, page 4, page 6 and so on was missing. So, that kind of gave us a clue as to how detailed they looked over those concerns.

They basically said the chances of that happening were so small that nobody really needed to do anything about it. We think they need to get a new Ouija board, because the events in Japan showed them how wrong that assessment was."

Good lord! The NRC must be rife with idiots! How could anyone respond to a report they could NOT even have read? God help us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 03:57 PM

NHK... there is concern that piping connections to the cores may be cracking.

Greenpeace has measured radiation levels in a number of areas, has called for evacuations outside the 30km radius, especially for pregnat women and for babies, and has measured radiation levels in Tokyo that contradict government readings and the government wants details. I hope they get rid of the Greenpeacers ASAP... all they can do is exacerbate the problems for their own gain... idiots. Panic is not needed at this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 03:11 PM

This improvised plan for dealing with huge volumes of radioactive sea-water is a far cry from whatever disaster response plans TOPCO filed with the appropriate agency of the Japanese Government. I expected as much as soon as they began desperately pouring salt-water onto the damaged reactor buildings.

Ideally, they would process the contaminated sea-water by boiling it down, and then storing the more concentrated radioactive sludge in armored dry casks. But you need a processing plant for that, with containment protection so that the water vapor doesn't carry radioactive volatiles out into the environment. They'll have to settle for much more temporary and imperfect measures until they can design and construct such a facility on site.

There was a unsettling report on CNN at noon that steam was seen escaping again from the Fukushima-2 nuclear complex 6 miles to the north. Sorry, we just won't stand for any more bad news.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 02:33 PM

Yes, tanks would corrode so it would be temporary but it would also be immediate. Concrete lined pits are also temporary and subject to evaporation which spreads contaminants, and to rain which can overflow the pits. As all concrete cracks, pits are subject to leakage. Synthetic liners can be tricky to install... not as time consuming as clay liners, of course. Perhaps a combination of the two could be considered.

In any case, if they nixed tanks, it ain't the way to go I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 02:24 PM

Don't know about the breeding capacity of waters near the Sendai area.

The Kuru Siwo current - part of the Northern Pacific circulation. If it gets heavily contaminated, that finishes the North American Pacific fishery. Look at an ocean current map.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 02:12 PM

Tanks- many needed, small capacity. Where to store them where they wouldn't corrode??
This was a suggestion by Tepco, but they abandoned it.
Cement-lined pits another suggestion.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 01:55 PM

I thought I heard they are sourcing tanks. You would think that getting tanks should be a world priority... surely the world could get enough (I don't know the volume) tanks there fairly quickly? As for the volume of storage required, every little bit counts.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 01:38 PM

How to contain/store the contaminated water from the reactors has not been solved. A plan to store it in tankers is a no go.
The government says the Fukushima complex will be permanently closed once the reactors are stabilized. A Tepco spokesman suggested keeping reactors 5 and 6, but the cabinet member (Edano) in charge of energy says no.

Many (all?) of the boiling water reactors in the U. S. are outdated, much like those in the Tohoku area. They should be retired/replaced.

Nearshore water badly contaminated. In the Gulf Coast, the nearshore waters are breeding areas for Gulf of Mexico fish. Don't know about the breeding capacity of waters near the Sendai area.

Expect fossil fuel use for industrial energy to increase over the next few years.
In the U. S., the EIA estimates home use at 22%, commercial at 19%, industrial at 30% and transportation at 19%.
In most states and provinces, home use is closer to 10%.

Some people would have us go back to "that little grass shack in Kealikekua," but few would agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 08:43 AM

"Nuclear plant disaster looming" strikes me as woefully inadequate to describe what has been happening in and around the Fukushima-1 nuclear plant site for the past week or so. I've asked that the title be changed but was told that since this disaster was still evolving there was no need for a change. Perhaps, the title will be changed ten thousand years from now when radiation levels have returned again to background. There are more important things to discuss than thread titles, as reality overwhelms the theory of safe nuclear power.

Time to check the updates.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 02:24 AM

The tense of the verb in the title, well, it's wrong. imo. It has loom--ed.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 09:13 PM

JAPAN admits they have lost the battle to prevent a meltdown through the reactor vessel into the concrete basement of reactor #2,

Plutonium levels in soil and watercontinue to rise.

Only #3 was supposed to have PU in them but that either is a lie or they just don;t know how far #3 has melted down already.

When all 4 reactors melt down we may as well add the last two because the radiation will prevent human intervention.


WHEN THAT OCCURS the USA will indeed have ongoing continual radiation concerns on the west coast and ALaska including the fisheries.



THE BIG LIE THIS WEEK

"this is not anywhere near as serious as Chernobyl."


(note they have stopped comparing this to TMI)

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 09:09 PM

Stringsing, WHile thwe NRC is not owned by private companies you are correct in the spirit of correctly stating that there is collusion with the help of many republican run COngress'.

mg, whatever punishment that would fit the crime for running nuclear power plants with a record of negligence,
would be unusual and cruel.

gnu, whats new

Q, the new solar panels that are flexible film can be used as siding and roofing and are far cheaper than the heavy panels.
This may be an economic plus

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:45 PM

Anyone else able to read what's in the balloons?

Just. It wasn't easy.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:07 PM

Thanks, Jack, for pointing out that the "public link" permits anyone to access Facebook.

However, the resolution of the images as filtered by Faebook is not as sharp as what I see from the JPG images on my monitor and I probably should rescan the individual panels. Anyone else able to read what's in the balloons?

I did see an interview with David Lochbaum (from the Union of Concerned Scientists) this evening and he was asked his assessment of the similar nuclear plants in the States. His initial reply was they were every bit as safe as the ones in Japan, and upon further questioning flatly said they were equally vulnerable to meltdown if their back-up systems were compromised by a similar event or even parallel event. And, yes, the spent fuel pools never should have been approved as adequately secure.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:35 PM

Thanks Jack... I didn't even bother to click when I saw "facebook". Figured I couldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 06:18 PM

Well, I think we're all well and truly b*ggered to be honest, sooooooo...anyone for Credit Card Shopping?

You may never have to pay it back, look on the bright side...



>>>"GE $1 Billion Nuclear Unit at Risk as Nations Mull Atomic Future," March 16, 2011.<<<<

There is no *future* in Atomic. That's always been the problem.

There's future in candles though...and horses..and manpower...and wind power and sun power and 'let's stop being so goddamned greedy' power...

Simplicity is the New Black....

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 05:22 PM

The recriminations are flying, most of them after-the-fact.

Japan societies of civil engineers, mechanical engineers, nuclear engineers, etc. who generally approved at time of construction.
Government in power at time of construction.
Government in power now.
People of Fukushima Prefecture who wanted jobs that the development would bring.
Management of TEPCO at time of construction, and now.
NOT GENERALLY REPORTED-
General Electric and Hitachi- GE designed the plants; they were built 80% Hitachi, 20% GE.
NOTE- Hitachi built the plant.
Failure to consult historical record- Originally Hitachi; later TEPCO could have made improvements. TEPCO as operator could have demanded changes be made by Hitachi.
Stockholders of TEPCO, who demanded good dividends- many thousands of individuals, investment houses including banks worldwide, insurance companies, pension funds.
-------------------

General Electric Power and Water CEO Steve Bolze defended the company's boiling water reactors, including those at the Fukushima Daiichi complex.
GE and Bolze have "assembled 1000 specialists, including retirees, at an emergency center in Wilmington, North Carolina, where GE-Hitachi is based."
The company is sending 10 truck-mounted gas turbines to help restore power at Daiichi reactors.
GE-Hitachi are shielded from liability by Japan's channeling laws, according to Omer Brown, a lawyer who is a member of the International Atomic Energy Agency's Nuclear Liability Expert Group. Japan assigns nuclear accident liability solely to the operators.

This mostly from Bloomberg, "GE $1 Billion Nuclear Unit at Risk as Nations Mull Atomic Future," March 16, 2011.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 05:21 PM

It's public, you don't need a Facebook membership. I haven't got one and I just read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 04:56 PM

.... and a facebook membership.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 04:54 PM

mg-

It's truly a miserable situation and I like your modest proposal.

Speaking of gallows humor, I've just posted a 1987 anti-nuclear power propaganda comic that a good friend published during our campaign to close the Maine Yankee nuclear power plant; here's a public link to my Facebook album: Click here!

This is strong propaganda and you should read it only if you have a strong stomach.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 04:17 PM

They are not even being fed properly or given more than one blanket. Come on. This is more than I would have thought possible.

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110329004944.htm

IT is a country full of engineers and robots. If a land robot can't get close enough with food then get a floating one if place is soaked with water. Or catapult stuff. Or get another crane and dangle it outside a window. Or, trucks are getting through. How about suiting up TEPCO executives as well as whoever let the inspections pass falsely and ignored obvious talk of tsunami strength, and letting them drive the stuff into the compound. Safe enough for the workers, safe enough for the executives. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 03:49 PM

Glow in the dark shithawks? Yeah, sounds like a bad idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 03:26 PM

Meanwhile back in Japan:

From the Los Angeles Times (3/29/2011):

"Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan for the first time criticized the TEPCO, which owns the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, for inadequate preparations for a tsunami at the facility. The sea wall at the plant was designed to withstand an 18-foot wave, while the actual tsunami that struck after the magnitude 9 Tohoku earthquake was estimated to be more than 40 feet high.

"It's undeniable their assumptions about tsunamis were greatly mistaken," Kan said Tuesday of Tokyo Electric Power Co. in an address to the Japanese parliament. "The fact that their standards were too low invited the current situation."

Kan also criticized the company for placing the backup diesel generators, which were to provide power to the emergency cooling system, in the basements of reactor buildings, where they were swamped by seawater and disabled.

(SNIP!)

At the plant, meanwhile, workers were piling sandbags at the ends of tunnels near the coast as water levels inside the tunnels rose and threatened to spill out into the ocean. The water is highly radioactive and international law forbids its release into the sea, although the radiation would most likely be dispersed to the point where it was inconsequential.

Experts fear it could damage ocean life in the immediate vicinity of the plant, however.

Engineers are attempting to pump water out of the tunnels to restore access to the areas where workers have been attempting to restore power to the stricken facility, but are running out of places to store the radioactive water until its radiation levels can decay."

We used to propose (internal gossip) that Maine get rid of its nuclear waste by fusing it into ceramic seagulls and selling it to tourists who would take it with them when they left the State. But we all agreed that would be WRONG!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 03:01 PM

There are some lyrics in this song that are poetically appropos. My apologies if you don't care for this type of tune.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iCTt2ZfcAM

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 02:55 PM

Another thing..they said 2 workers were "splashed" with radioactive water wearing waterproof, supposedly, garments, but were soaked to their underwear. It did not say submerged in radioactive water, or soaked..just splashed. How does waterproof garment not keep you waterproof? Who is clothing these heroic workers? And giving them plastic bags to put over street shoes to stand in radioactive water while doing electrical work? Surely not Hannah Montana..oh she is not real..but if she were she would know better. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 02:52 PM

Well, the other thing we fail to take into account is human ingenuity and enterprise. People are very flexible and adaptable, and can, if necessary, drive less, wear more clothing, have higher per person houses, go back to how their ancestors lived somewhat.

There are economic solutions to some of the solar problems mentioned..such as amoritization by power companies, who would install and own the panels or windmills.

How does Denmark do it? How do others do it?

Does not have to be fossil fuels..certainly could be algae fuels or waste or pig manure etc..would have to look at industry by industry basis..how much fuels the physical plant and how much the actual machinery. There probably are ways to separate electricity sources.

People who are either forced to by economics or are induced to by economics, or social pressure, or whatever, can individually and collectively find ways to reduce, share, use utilities when cheapest, program machinery to do same, and invent new ways of doing stuff.

Another thing that has to happen is to release inventions and patents that already exist. I do not believe for a moment that big oil or big nuclear or whatever does not have lots of things in their back pocket and are able to turn things pretty rapidly around when they realize they must. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM

My solar cost estimates did not provide for air-conditioning, if wanted- add $16,000 to panel and installation costs.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 02:19 PM

Clean energy, for the next 50 years, will be limited in its usefulness.
Solar and wind have been proposed. What is involved? The following are my assessment of current solar possibilities, with aid from "How Stuff Works."
SOLAR-
Solar energy technology could be sufficient to service homes in much of the world. This may be done individually, or collectively by a commercial or cooperative company.
Individual- how many people can afford to make the installation necessary?
The average house requires c. 14000 watt hours/day. This requires 285 square feet of solar panels.
Because of cloudy days, a battery bank, inverter, etc. are needed in the installation.
Solar panels- $16,000
Battery bank, etc. Another $16,000.
Could be required for new homes, but for most people in older homes, retrofitting
appliances, roof, adding labor costs, control room, etc. would require a mortgage addition. Cost prohibitive for most.
In the U. S. and Canada, state and provincial rights prevent nationwide regulation.

Retrofitting apartment towers and comdominia is doubtfully economic.

The alternative, large commercial solar panel fields with transmission lines to towns have many drawbacks- from withdrawing large parcels of land from agricultural, livestock, recreational, wildlife and other uses. Costs of auxilliary equipment high.

For northern sites- settlements in northern Europe, Asia and North America- solar power must be supplemented as it is not feasible for exclusive use.

Local zoning and preferences. No overall plan is possible. The federal government cannot override state laws, and the people and their communities vote their preferences.

Solar power for industrial purposes- Impossible!

To power industry, only fossil fuels and nuclear technology available with present technology. How long to develop otrher technology? At least 50 years if large budget allowances made.

Similar problems exist for wind power proposals.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 01:08 PM

I don't want them to feel bad enough to have nervous breakdowns or take final desperate measures to their own lives etc...I want them to feel the pain of responsibility enough that they devote the rest of their lives to clean energy or public service. I think those who were found to have doctored books, compromised on engineering etc. should have pensions reduced to that of whatever a teacher or nurse would get, probably not legally possible, and of course face whatever laws they have there. I think they, and we, need to start from ground zero in many aspects of engineering and see what they are engineering for and against. Remember, someone, I don't know who, has convinced generaitons of people that air vents are a perfectly good substitute for windows, not taking into account human error, like blocking them, failing to clean or maintain them etc. Small example, but human laziness, failure to follow instructions, lack of information or education etc. have got to be engineered into every devise or plan. I was never ocnvinced this was the case and now I am sure. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:18 PM

Nuclear energy in the U.S. is at the hands of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission which is owned outright by the nuclear industry who puts profits above safety and that includes Japan's company as well.

Nuclear energy is fission-based. There has been talk about a fusion-based use which reputedly recycles waste into energy.

I don't think there is any political will in the world today that is on the part of the nuclear industry to protect the environment, the people, and put profits second.

In the meantime, Obama is tilting at windmills on this issue.

The hazardous materials build up, affect the environment and people's health,
are rationalized by corporations who stand to profit from their position, and
pay off the pseudo-scientific babblers to support their P.R. claims.

The nukes are coming. Be afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:17 PM

Here is a glossary for nuclear jargon

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf51.html#V

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 11:46 AM

Donuel-

Your post above has liquidated another keyboard.

I've been weighing the pros and cons of posting panel by panel the comic book we published way back in 1986-87 during our third unsuccessful attempt to shut down the Maine Yankee nuclear power plant. I may do so yet as a photo album on my Facebook page. It's not quite as funny as we thought it was at the time. Old humor can sometimes bite the hand that fed it!

Back to the problem at hand...

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 11:31 AM

post #666 was comedic relief.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 10:31 AM

SUPER GOOD UNBELIEVABLE NEWS

The manager of Fukushima reactors 1-6 has sought the counsel of the world's foremost authority on cleaning up gigantic disastrous messes. The forecast of 12 to 24 years required to clean up the 4 reactors that have melted down, the surrounding country side as far as Tokyo and 2 million sq. miles of ocean water, IS NOW OBSOLETE!

With the methods devised by AIEAC scientist T Geisel PHD emeritus the entire clean up may only take a matter of hours, once the entire amount of Nuclear fuel consisting of MOX, new fuel U 258 and the collection of all spent fuel assemblies are fully exposed and evenly distributed.
This will consist of 25 separate steps which will in the short run make the disaster appear to grow worse with each step introduced.
However the final 26th step of exposing all contamination, to Z particles it will be as though the disaster never happened.

The process is a Vitrification of Oxide Moderators or VOOM. The many step process of exposing the radioactive fuel to various progressive particles essentially oxidizes the fuel thereby reducing its half life at each step until finally a Z particle renders the fuel as safe as lead. Japan can then truck off and bury the lead and everything will be as good as new.

While this process has been theorized for nearly 55 years, this will be the first time it is done on a grand scale. To read a book about this amazing process you can find it on Amazon, com under the cat in the hat comes back.
Technically the entire time to achieve a safe clean environment will be a matter of minutes at the final stage. The preparation for finality will take several weeks or months depending upon unforeseen circumstances.