BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 05:05 PM

Kimigayo does not seem to have been posted previously.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 05:49 PM

The Mori polls over how many support the monarchy actually vary. Probably depends on whether there's been a wedding or other celebration or perhaps what scandals are going on. Last month their poll showed a 77% support for the monarchy whilst April 2005 showed only a 65% support. Big majority fair enough but it still means than many millions of Britons don't support the monarchy. Hence the said UK anthem isn't for everyone! A recent ICM poll however showed that support for the monarchy north of the border only stood at 50%. I'd imagine from my own experience though that real ardent royalists or real ardent republicans constitute quite a small percentage.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 03:53 AM

But surely the whole point is that the anthem is "The National Anthem". You do not need to buy-into every one of its phrases in order to sing (or just stand and salute) it.
Singing 'God save the Queen' is a statement of loyalty to the queen as the figurehead of the country. Just as a Scout's promise to "Do my duty to God and to the Queen" is not a promise to go round to Buck House, and clean up after the corgis, but a pledge of loyalty to the country which the Queen represents.

To say that it should be dropped because 20% are republicans is pointless. In Wales, the fervour with which the National Anthem (Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau) is sung (paticularly at rugby matches) is amazing. But for many it is just memorised. I would be surprised if as many as 20% could tell you what the words actually mean. But the anthem has a single meaning, Welsh patriotism. The words (as the Spanish would tell you) hardly come into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 06:36 AM

But it's far from an ideal situation!
How about having Tv show devoted to finding new national anthem; one that 99% of the population were happy about. An anthem that could reflect the aspirations and wishes of the people. One we could be proud of.
But, of course, that would be seen as an insult to the queen.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 06:56 AM

If we did, Tunesmith, I will give you plenty of 9-to-5 that you would still be a member of that dissident & unhappy 1%; because you are quite patently one of those who can never be content with what normal people manage to live their lives making do with. An awkward compulsive professional malcontent, that's you. We know your sort. So, as Socrates would have advised you ~~ know yourself.

Best wishes

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 07:36 AM

I'm not the problem! It's the brainless ones who always accept the status quo, and never think outside their narrow little comfort zone!

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 07:45 AM

"To say that it should be dropped because 20% are republicans is pointless."

I'd actually agree though Republicanism is only one reason people may not like the said anthem. The point I was making was not that it should be banned as the National Anthem but that people shouldn't be publicly pilloried for not singing it. ie That people shouldn't be pressurised into singing it. Not that anyone seemed to mind the fact that Wiggo didn't sing it yesterday. As said before it is just a stick which certain sections of the media have decided to bash Scots (and now the Welsh too) with.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 10:51 AM

But surely just as bad, Tunesmith, to assume that the status quo can never be acceptable ~~ which it seems to me tends to be your assumption.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 01:06 PM

That wasn't my point! A particular "status quo" might make sense ( but not the rock band!); however, it's those that simply accept a given situation without questioning if it is valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 01:22 PM

Nigel has stated views that I agree with.

Sing the songs as a patriotic gesture and sign of respect to your country; many are old and perhaps politically or culturally out of date, but so what?

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 02:05 PM

Someone who is 'brainless and lives in a narrow little comfort zone' is probably ever so much more content and settled than you appear to be, Tunesmith!

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 03:01 PM

Eliza, what you said is probably true:

"Someone who is 'brainless and lives in a narrow little comfort zone' is probably ever so much more content and settled than you appear to be, Tunesmith!"

But that's the weight that us free-thinkers must bear.

I have observed that lots of people who believe in that great tooth-fairy in the sky seem very content.
And lots of those who exist in the relected glory of our great and noble queen also seem content.

I, myself, feel that I would be a happier and more content person if I could convince myself that Father Christmas really does exist, but I've examined the evidence and I just can't accept him as real.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 03:21 PM

If Emily Pankhust had accepted the status quo where would we be now?

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Megan L
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 03:21 PM

Actually truly intelligent people do not suffer from an inferiority complex so they feel no need to go picking fights with people over their ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 04:29 PM

Well, a previous poster mention Emily Pankhurst.
Well, she picked a bloody big fight with the British Government because they had the idea that giving women the vote would be a waste of time.
As a woman, you should count your blessing for people who do feel the need to go picking fights with people over their idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 06:03 PM

If Emily Pankhust had accepted the status quo where would we be now?

Probably we'd be in much the same place. I rather think that female suffrage would have come about even if the suffragette campaign had never happened. Probably around the same time, in the wake of the Great War.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 02:43 AM

"You do not need to buy-into every one of its phrases in order to sing (or just stand and salute) it."

But this is looking at things from what appears to be quite an anglo-centric viewpoint. God Save The Queen doesn't tend to automatically bring up a swell of emotion and turn on the patriotism autopilot for all Scots. Remember the Scottish football team itself up until the 1980s or so had God Save The Queen played as their own anthem - and it was mercilessly booed by large sections of their own supporters. Eventually after years of this fiasco the out of touch blazers at the SFA backed down and played Flower Of Scotland instead.

Support for the monarchy seems to be about 79% in the UK at the moment but that figure is not steady across the UK's four parts. The figures are heavily influenced by the views of England. As previously mentioned an ICM poll showed it as only about 50% support in Scotland. A BBC poll in 2009 showed it only as 58% in Wales. Breaking that down further 65% of over 65s supported it in Wales but only 42% of under 35s. I couldn't find the figures for Northern Ireland but wouldn't expect support to be considerably more than in Scotland, if at all, and of course it is much more of an contentious issue there.

So if you have an anthem supposedly there to represent 'the union' then you'd expect it to be something that is acceptable to all parts of the said union - and not just to the largest part! Now I am not saying that it should be scrapped as the anthem for UK competitors. I am just suggesting that the argument put forward by Tunesmith is not as invalid as is being suggested by some posters.

What has been actually happening in the real world is that sections of the anglocentric UK media have taken objection to the fact that not all British competitors hold the same viewpoints etc as what is or is supposed to be held in middle-England. One wee Scots lass stated when asked if she would sing the anthem that she wouldn't. She didn't abuse it at all. She stood in line along with the rest of her team as it was being played as did her other Scots team-mate. But that was enough to set off the bloodhounds who then turned their attention to the Welsh men who then also made a decision not to actively sing it. That is their personal choice too. Not one of them has said that the anthem shouldn't be played - they simply made a personal choice for whatever their own reason is not to sing it. Why should there be a fuss? The English journalists and commentators who were involved just have to accept that you can't force people to feel patriotic towards a certain song! They have to recognise that Britain is a diverse place. Likewise you can't just tell everyone to just sing it and buy into it - if they don't want to sing it and don't buy into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 04:47 AM

McGrath of Harlow, you're not really saying that Emily Wilding Davison, who threw herself under the King's horse at Epsom Race course in 1913, died in vain?

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 05:15 AM

Depends what you mean by "died in vain", surely, Jim? Certainly a magnificent gesture {tho it was purely adventitious that it happened to be the King's horse, one of a ruck, that did for her!}; but do you really think it had any significant effect on the eventual outcome, or that women wouldn't have got the vote if she hadn't done it? Honest, now!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 05:35 AM

Last year, when the NFL played at Wembley, Jeff Beck played GSTQ before the game, and I thought it was extremely boorish of a large section of the crowd to insist on singing along.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 06:06 AM

I, at my age, am distressed when football crowds sing the anthem in the stands as part of the general repertoire of singalongs, along with, e.g., When Sts Go Marching In, That's Zamora, &c. Seems most disrespectful.

Probably just another example of my old-age pissing in the wind! Or does anyone else feel the same?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 06:54 AM

""But that's the weight that us free-thinkers must bear.""

One man's free thinker is another man's arrogant, pretentious twit.

"Free thinker" is the name given to themselves by those who wish to claim superiority over their fellow men, but lack the talent, wisdom, or imagination to be truly superior.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 09:55 AM

I think Emily Davison's sacrifice was a turning moment in the people's perception of the suffragettes. To say, ach well, it would have happened anyway, I think is shameful to her memory.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Megan L
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 10:09 AM

Women in the first world war were more free than they are today The slave masters of the modern woman is female fundamentalism that looks down on her if she doesnt want to be come the president of some corperation but would rather stay at home and look after the family

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 12:28 PM

Sorry, Jim. No intention to diminish your admiration or to dishonour anyone's memory. But I cannot share either your admiration for that quixotic self-destructive gesture, which, by its very immoderacy, was as likely to be counterproductive, as productive of the desired outcome; or your assessment of its ultimate effect. The winning of the female franchise was surely far more influenced by women's selfless and positive contribution to the 1914-18 War Effort, than by anything else.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 12:53 PM

Don(Wyziwjg)T, I think YOUR inferiority complex is showing through here:

"One man's free thinker is another man's arrogant, pretentious twit.

"Free thinker" is the name given to themselves by those who wish to claim superiority over their fellow men, but lack the talent, wisdom, or imagination to be truly superior.

Don T. "

A series of counselling sessions might help!

BTW I don't think I'm superior to anyone - just different!

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 01:05 PM

Dearie me, so Emily Davison's ultimate sacrifice in the cause of women's franchise was no more than a "quixotic self-destructive gesture".
End of conversation.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 02:43 PM

Subject of thread lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 03:33 PM

Since Emily Davidson had a return ticket in her pocket it's perhaps unlikely she intended to die. She wasn't a suicide bomber.

However brave her act was, it should be remembered she wasn't the only casualty. It was only by lucky chance that the jockey, Herbert Jones only received a concussion. In fact he is said to have suffered long term flashbacks, and in 1951 he gassed himself.

This thread really is drifting far from home...

................................. The suggestion that some other anthem would be welcomed by nationalists in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland just doesn't make sense. Any anthem that was intended to uphold the Union could never be acceptable to people who reject the Union. It wouldn't make any difference whether it mentioned the Queen or God or was given over to descriptions of the scenery, or stuff about being nice to each other.

If you don't think a nation should continue to exist, that nation's national anthem isn't your national anthem.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 04:50 PM

Thanks, McGrath: Jim might want it to be 'end of conversation', but I don't have to bow to his authority. It is traditionally mothers-in-law who insist on having the last word, not antagonists on open forums.

Apart from fact that E Davidson did not intend any 'ultimate sacrifice' [& if she had I can't see why this should be so praiseworthy to one of Jim's well-known pacifist views], she certainly intended to make her point by harm to jockeys - hardworking men doing their skilful job - and horses. Her aim was disruption, not sacrifice. A thoroughly quixotic and ill-considered gesture, far from entirely admirable to my mind; and just as likely to lead to "How can we be expected to give the vote to such irrationally irresponsible characters?" as to "Wow, what inimitably marvellous self-sacrifice: give them all just what they want immediately!".

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 08:00 PM

""Don(Wyziwjg)T, I think YOUR inferiority complex is showing through here:""

It should be patently obvious from my posting recordhere that the last thing I am suffering from is an inferiority complex.

I just have an extreme dislike and disdain for pretentious twits!

Sorry about that, but, if the cap fits, I'm afraid you'll just have to wear it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 04:32 AM

"The suggestion that some other anthem would be welcomed by nationalists in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland just doesn't make sense"

That is absolutely true! If someone dislikes the idea of an anthem solely because it represents a union they wish to sever - then it doesn't matter which song is used. Plus I think as far as Scotland goes many people mix up the idea of Scottish Nationalism and Republicanism. Of the two biggest political parties here the SNP have republicans in their midst but so do Labour! The SNP however are not a Republican party. On independence the Queen would remain Queen in Scotland. The plain fact is that many Scots had issues with GSTQ before the SNP became the major force they are now. Nationalism is only one of the reasons why many Scots don't feel close to this song.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 08:58 AM

Now there's the challenge!
Why not have a Tv talent show to find a unifying national anthem.
Surely, some genius wordsmith could produce lyrics that please almost everyone( well, 99.9%).
And, of course, other counties have strong regional differences ( Spain, for example, with Catalonia and the Basque region)
Come to think of it, I don't think Spain's national anthem has any words!
Maybe, that was their solution to the problem!