BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 04:36 PM

"The two sides go to the peace table and start arguing over who was at more fault."
My interest in the Israeli past is an academic one.
The only way it concerns me now is when it is used by prats like you pair to avoid what is happening now
You both have consistently reverted to who did what to who 100 - 200 - 300 years ago to in order to avoid any discussion on what is happening now and what should happen.
IT IS YOU WHO IS INDULGING IN THE "BLAME GAME" AND IT IS YOU WHO REFUSES TO DISCUSS ISRAEL'S PRESENT BEHAVIOR BY SHELTERING BEHIND PAST WRONGS, REAL OR IMAGINED
If you are not prepared to discuss the present situation regarding the peace talks, please allow those of us who wish to do so without the interruption of your inanities to so so - or as they say more succinctly in these parts - P

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 04:33 PM

I want to state emphatically that I don't hate Israel. I lament it having become a "militocracy". I deplore it's begging the US for more weaponry.

The US can't be a legitimate arbiter as long as it sends weapons to Israel.

It's pretty clear that the international community is opposed to the expansion of settlements, an attempt at a land grab.

There is not a wall big enough to solve this ongoing problem.

The solution may come from the young people of Israel and the dissidents.
Netanyahu is old mode and his ways don't work any more.

There have been unofficial alliances between Palestinians and Israelis and this
it the hope for the future.

Obama is on the wrong side of this issue. Kerry's negotiations are "dead in the water".

The answer is to somehow wrest the dialogue and the solutions from the politicians
and allow the people of Palestine and Israel to make reasonable decisions.

For that matter, this applies to the "politocracy" of the US as well. Get the politicians
out of the way and let the people decide.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 03:47 PM

Jim, From reading your post, it didn't address what I was saying or what I was talking about. Am I correct?
More wrongs don't justify the wrongs of the past. It's time to re-think the blame game, and get to a solution. Your enumeration of things that the Jews did, would only be countered by the things the Palestinians did as well, and NOTHING would go forward or be accomplished...now would it?
The problem MUST incorporate removing the outside agitators and influences. Any justification by the outsiders, or playing to the outsiders is only going to serve to prevent any solution. Arguing about who did what to who first, and why it was followed up by more violence is NOT going to end the violence.
So what is it?..Are you for prolonging the conflict, or resolving it?

Both sides FEEL 'justified'...playing into that is rather self defeating!

I can see it now........The two sides go to the peace table and start arguing over who was at more fault....and then beating the crap out of each other, because neither side wants to move PAST those issues!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 03:15 PM

"Right to return"
If you read your history books rather than relying on point-scoring cut-n-pastes you wouldf know that there was a war prior to the signing of the peace treaty in 1949 in which atrocities where committed on both sides
While the British were leaving Palestine, Israeli 'Freedom Fighters' were clearing the way for the new Israeli State by tossing hand-grenades into occupied homes.
The terms of the Treaty were designed to end all dispute and both sides agreed and signed it, so the agreed borders were, are, and will remain the legal one until new ones are drawn up
Stop ******* fighting historical battles by taking your line from the Israeli Press) and deal with what is happening now
http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

There is a conference going on at the present time - if there is a "suppression" of news by the media would be refreshing to think that they are cooperating in order to bring about an acceptable settlement
However:

New York Times
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/h/hamas/index.html

Los Angeles Times
http://www.latimes.com/news/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-hamas-cracks-down-on-gaza-media-outlets-20130725,0,4115532.story

The Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/8347164/Gazas-elected-Islamist-rulers-crack-down-on-secular-community.html

Israel International News
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/170839#.UhEI95K1Fo4

The Commentator
http://www.thecommentator.com/article/3720/hamas_cracks_down_on_palestinian_informants_in_gaza

Commentator again
http://www.thecommentator.com/articles/tag/hamas/212

Even in Palestine
http://www.palestinechronicle.com/hamas-and-the-urge-to-power/#.UhEMtZK1Fo4

News Now
http://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/World+News/Middle+East/Palestine/Hamas

Independant
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/hamas-claims-success-in-crackdown-on-israeli-collaborators-in-gaza-8614362.html?printService=print

The suppression doesn't seem very effective waddya think?

The Palestinians have pledged themselves to the conference.
The Israelis have announced an expansion of settlements
When Palestine was granted limited membership of the U.N. the immediate Israeli reaction was to announce an increase in settlements   
Who are the peacemakers - take your pick - oh, you already have.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 02:13 PM

Jim, Respectfully(this time), finding the 'blame' on who is more 'justified' in their positions, isn't going to 'solve' the problem. The Israelis took that land, because they felt, that logistically and tactically, they were more vulnerable to attacks from the Iranian backed and supplied Palestinians(along with other 'foreign' enemies, fighting them. The piece is a small piece, not that the size matters, but the location and proximity for missile launches, etc, etc. When, in times past, they made concessions, they were still attacked from that area. Now what I just said, in regards about that doesn't 'justify' or make the problem go away...so in that respect, you do have your point...However, the Israelis want better assurances, that if they enter another peace agreement, that the attacks from that area(or any area) will cease..and in that, they DO have a point...MEANWHILE, back in Iran, they are working up their nuclear program, and stalling for time. whether or not you, or anyone feels that their program is merely for energy, or for weapons, the fact remains, that Israel, among others feel that if Iran achieves success, that the situation will grow more tense and escalate. I think we can agree on that. I think the pressure is on Israel, to 'hold off' taking any preemptive strikes, while other nations(or 'financial concerns', allow a conflict with Iran and the Saudis, as per my previous post. It boils down to a gamble with a race against time, as to how to 'solve' the Iranian factor, in supplying the Palestinians. It should be pointed out, that when the Jews were returning, back in the late 40's and early 50's, that the Jews and Arabs did co-exist, peacefully in Israel. The British were the main targets of the more militant Jewish factions. That is a matter of history, and a true fact. Their tensions escalated later.
The wild card here is the Saudis and Iranians, more than the Israelis and Palestinians. I do believe the two could work out their differences, IF there wasn't outside 'influences', either from the other Arab nations, or the West. Would you agree on that point?...setting aside any personal biases you may feel one way or the other.
Hey, BTW..it's been a good dialogue with you on the subject..Bobad included....AND, this exchange probably has shed more light on the situation, than all the clouded areas of grey, which keeps the REAL concerns away from the mainstream information outlets!
After all, it really is a convoluted mess, with more 'players' involved, than just the Palestinians and Israelis...and in 'solving it' that HAS to be taken into account!
But, judging from the history of man, we always seem to pick the messiest, bloodiest, more pain-ridden path, making room for the exploiters, than the most direct, peaceful paths. History has clearly shown us that...but as I've said before, 'History teaches us that man doesn't seem to learn from history!'

What do you think?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 11:36 AM

Hamas doing it's part for the peace process and the world turns a blind eye:

Western media sources have been almost completely silent over the latest crackdown by Gaza's terrorist outfit Hamas on opposition political activists.

While The Telegraph's Robert Tait reported on 'fears' of a crackdown, and The Guardian effectively copy-and-pasted an Amnesty International press release, other outlets in the Western world have abdicated their responsibility to report a further deterioration in the terrorist enclave which has operated under a totalitarian dictatorship since Hamas came to power and refused any future electoral process.

Ma'an News Agency reports:

    "Hamas security forces have launched an arrest campaign against Fatah leaders and affiliates in the Gaza Strip, Fatah said in a statement on Sunday. Hamas security forces raided the home of Fatah official Abed al-Aziz al- Maqadma on Thursday, confiscating his computer and mobile phone."

Violence against opposition members is worsening too, with Amnesty reporting that two men have recently been tortured and forced to confess to crimes they perhaps did not commit. The pair, due to be executed this week, are among 40 prisoners on death row in Gaza. If this happened in the United States, the world's media would rightly be outraged.

But for Hamas, and indeed for other regimes around the world, the media is happy to keep the cap on the lens. This is not only bigotry, as it presupposes that Arabs either don't know any better, or that we should not expect more from them, but it is also a gross abdication of the journalistic mantra to seek out and report the story, no matter who, where or what the case may be.

Particularly noteworthy is the absence of interrogation into the matters from the world's largest broadcaster, the BBC.

The publicly funded broadcasting outfit claims it goes the extra mile for the story, and claims to be impartial in its reporting. But the BBC has not only been shown to be biased in a domestic sense, but also in its international coverage.

When some buildings are built, the BBC is there, high-definition cameras at the ready, to capture what it frames as great injustices.

But when terrorists are holding an entire body of people hostage, imprisoning and executing opposition activists, the organisation falls silent.

In two, three, five years, or a decade, when the Palestinians in Gaza finally attempt to or succeed in overthrowing their oppressive rulers, the questions will be asked, like the questions are now of Mohammed Morsi, "Why did this happen? Why didn't we see it coming? Who knew?"

But the answer is that many of us did know. We just don't work at the BBC.

Media silence as Hamas cracks down on opposition

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 11:21 AM

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Sizable Jewish communities existed in Judea and Samaria prior to 1948. These communities were wiped out by Palestinian Arab mobs in 1920, 1929 and 1936 and during the openly genocidal war waged by Palestinian militias and Arab governments in 1947-48. In an exhaustive and authoritative expose, Lyn Julius reminds us that:

    Until it was wiped out by Palestinian pogroms in 1929, there was a large Jewish community in the center of Hebron.

    The Jewish population of Jerusalem (which has had a Jewish majority since at least the second half of the 19th century) was dispossessed by the Arab riots of 1929 and 1936 (when most fled what is now called the Muslim Quarter). In 1948, the Jordanian Legion expelled all the Jews remaining in the East of the city and destroyed its holy places.

    "Another 16,684.421 dunams of Jewish land in the rural West Bank – including the Gush Etzion settlements, land between Nablus, Jenin and Tulkarm, and in Bethlehem and Hebron – were seized by the Jordanians after 1948."

    The 'Jewish settlements' north of Jerusalem, Atarot and Neve Yaakov, were evacuated in 1948, under the declared threat of advancing Arab armies to massacre all the Jews in their path.

    Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians live on land in and around Jerusalem that is still owned by the Jewish National Fund, including the Kalandia "refugee camp" and the Deheishe "refugee camp" south of Bethlehem.

    In Abu Dis, where Palestinians want to establish their government, 600 dunams of land are Jewish-owned. The Arab riots of 1929 and 1936 forced Jews to flee those areas.

    Iraqi and Iranian Jews owned 145,976 dunams on the West Bank which they had to leave due to violence.

And unlike the Palestinian Arabs, these Jewish communities were displaced or destroyed through no fault of their own. As even Benny Morris, the eminence grise of historians who have accused Israel of expulsions in 1948 has stated,"[t]he Arabs have only themselves to blame for the (unexpected) results of the war that they launched with the aim of "ethnically cleansing" Palestine of the Jews."

In sum, the supposed collective "right of return" of "refugees" as promoted by anti-Israel propagandists, if applied fairly to all as per the language of the clauses invoked, would provide Israel with an undeniable claim to huge, disputed areas in Jerusalem, Hebron, Gush Etzion, Bethlehem, Abu Dis, the north of Jerusalem up to Ramallah, and large swaths of the West Bank.

The "Right of Return"… to Judea and Samaria.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 09:43 AM

To underline all this - from three days ago:
http://kairossouthernafrica.wordpress.com/2013/08/15/palestine-update-ranjan-solomon-palestine-israel-ecumenical-forum/
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 09:35 AM

Only a partial report of what he said - we await the full text

What he also said was:
"He told them he had come to the region for the sixth time to express his support for the renewed peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians. "I have never been this optimist," he said, adding that the international community had never had such expectations and hope that the peace process would reach a solution.
"This time, I expect real peace," the UN head said, urging both sides ''to be patient'' and adding that negotiations are still the best way to reach a two-state solution. "The Israeli and Palestinian people are neighbors and have no choice but to live in harmony and peace, side by side."
http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-faces-bias-at-un-ban-says/

"He urged Israel to overcome its skepticism and the Palestinians to unify, in order to achieve two states living in peace – three states would be unacceptable."
http://www.debka.com/newsupdatepopup/5374/

Bias against Israel has been recognised as a fact for decades, it has also been recognised that that bias is a direct result of Israeli aggressive policy.
Ky moon's statement makes it clear that any present bias has arisen from the Middle East conflict.
This is why the present peace talks are so vital, and it is also why Israeli policy of continued expansion of settlements while the talks are in progress can only be seen as a deliberate attempt to scuttle those talks - (another indication of this is the refusal of the Two Stooges to even attempt to mention, let alone justify that expansion.
Once more - as the man said:   
"The Israeli and Palestinian people are neighbors and have no choice but to live in harmony and peace, side by side."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 08:34 AM

"United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon met with students at the UN headquarters in Jerusalem on Friday afternoon, and admitted that his organization was biased against Israel.

Responding to a student who said Israelis felt their country was discriminated against in the international organization, Ban confirmed that there was a biased attitude towards the Israeli people and Israeli government, stressing that it was "an unfortunate situation."

UN chief admits bias against Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 04:35 AM

From "THE BEAST" article;
"The borders established in 1949 (which were the borders at the start of June 1967) were therefore particularly arbitrary—with Arabs and Jews asserting claims and counter-claims every which way. Just as Palestinians do not believe they forfeited their rights to the land Israel won in June 1967, how can they argue that Jews forfeited their rights to the West Bank when it was not part of Israel after 1949? Jews continued to pine for the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem, for the overrun settlement (meaning community) of Gush Etzion, for the ancient Jewish city of Hebron."
I suggest that people compare the maps of agreed Palestine with today's maps.
Palestine is now a defensive and beleaguered ghetto undergoing a punishing and inhuman blockade.
This has been brought about by a consistent and long-term expansionist policy in which the Israelis have seized land and driven out the legal occupants.
When forced, they have returned pieces of the least `habitable land "as a gesture of compromise", cherry-picking the best for themselves.
The seized land has been long recognised as being 'illegal', or 'disputed' by the U.N. and most of the rest of the world and has only been able to be used for Israeli settlements through the continual use of the U.S. veto.
The 1949 borders remain the legal ones and only negotiation can change them.
Israel, by its present aggressive actions has shown they are not interested in any negotiations that will not give them the right to the land they have seized - as 'Insanity' pointed out "They won. It happens" - land-grabbing by bomb and gun.
It is this that this 'band of brothers' refuse to discuss here, why would they want to, present Israeli action is indefensible and they know it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 05:49 PM

bobad: "Demonizing Israel, as the opening assumptions of these talks implicitly do, feeds into the blame-game against Israel, gives Palestinians a free pass they don't deserve and makes that day harder to reach."

Ahh!..My dear fellow, you have hit on the nerve of the pulse...'The Blame Game'! As long as 'We the people' are so obsessed with 'who is more justified' because who get's the lion's share of the blame, nothing will get done!..and THAT is exactly what they(the multinational industrialist bankers) want! That is the exact illusion, of why the PERCEIVED blame is falling on Obama, for his handling of the Middle East. Obama is doing exactly what he is supposed to be doing!...for 'them'(see above)...and that is seemingly waffling, as the Mid East gets thoroughly destabilized!...not for Israel's sake, but for the oil's sake...and NAFTA...and the Keystone pipeline! Remember, in case you ever looked into it, that in the NAFTA agreement, 60% of the oil, produced in North America(Canada included) had to be exported overseas! Most likely China and the U.K, and Europe....BUT...we also have a treaty put in place with Saudi Arabia, in 1979, by Henry Kissinger, under the Carter Administration, that we buy their oil, they buy our Treasury Bonds, AND we would not expand our drilling domestically!! The only ways out of that, is if Saudi Arabia falls, let's say to the Muslim Brotherhood, OR turmoil surrounding the Suez makes it virtually impossible to ship the oil. Personally, I think these two events MAY coincide...then we get to BLAME that crap on them, and justify drilling here, shipping the oil overseas, and everyone goes home happy...that is if you are one of the 'elite multinational banker/industrialists'. that probably is a huge reason that the Bank of London, was a primary backer of Obama's first run!..and as long as us 'wee folk' are consumed with bickering with each other, or 'left' vs 'right' (another illusion), everything just goes on schedule, with THAT issue never being addressed!...
....but there IS one glitch....Israel, and IT'S will to survive. What if they take out Iran before Iran gets to sponsor a takeover of the Saudis??...Oh my!...those nasty little Jews, huh?
the whole thing is like a multi-headed snake, looking to devour something, anything...and just might start working on it' own tail. But just keep on looking for someone to blame it on...and you'll miss most of the whole movie!
THEATER! ......
...or maybe Jim is right....."- though I don't think he's bright enough to have spotted it."

BTW, what are you looking at?....spotted owls?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 03:21 PM

"Legally, it was only in the late 1970s, thanks to the biased United Nations, that the Fourth Geneva Convention was invoked, treating Israel as a so-called "occupying power" in the territories it now controlled post-1967. The critique offered in Security Council Resolution 446 of March 1979—and many others—that Israel "as the occupying Power," was compelled "to desist from taking any action which would result in changing the legal status and geographical nature and materially affecting the demographic composition of the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, and, in particular, not to transfer parts of its own civilian population into the occupied Arab territories" was absurd. The Fourth Geneva Convention in 1949 sought to prevent a recurrence of Nazi Germany's Hitlerian crimes of conquering a country (which the West Bank wasn't), and transferring its own citizens, often involuntarily (when Israeli settlers volunteer), as part of a brutal colonialist occupation and often an extermination campaign. Using European imperialist words like "colonialist" and "occupation" for the more ambiguous situation in the Israel-Palestine border dispute distorted the area's murky history and legal status. This misapplied law misled many, especially radical Europeans, into thinking that Israel was both colonialist and Hitlerian in its actions—when, among other facts, the Palestinians population has practically quadrupled since 1967."


"....understanding that two people are in love with the same land, the borders of a two-state solution have to minimize the number of people displaced, maximize the viability of both new entities, and try to give both countries enough so that they are happier with what they have than what their radicals delude them into believing they could get. Only with this kind of mutual respect, mutual recognition, and mutual flexibility, will we start inching toward peace. Demonizing Israel, as the opening assumptions of these talks implicitly do, feeds into the blame-game against Israel, gives Palestinians a free pass they don't deserve and makes that day harder to reach."

Ending the Blame Game Through Talks

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 12:27 PM

Stringsinger: "Zionism has broken international laws repeatedly.
So have Islamic extremists. One thing that the two have in common is intractable
religious beliefs. That shows from whence their "laws" emanate."

'Correcto mundo'....Whereas the Native Americans, it was more about 'Spirituality' and the 'unseen'. Imagine if the Native Americans and Nikola Tesla had gotten together!!! instead of the financial industrial barons of the day, that owned the steel, copper and railroads!!..and BTW, the Native Americans, Hopi in particular(as well as others), and the Judea/Christian prophetic texts have MORE in common, than any of the pseudo Christian cults(read 'religions'), who have merged with secular governments, and co-opted each other!! Whereas, the Arabs and Jews are familial, and are actually related to each other!! If you don't know what that's about, just look it up. Don't you just hate it when the world steps into a family squabble??.....(OK, back to the other stuff..)
The Jewish people, after enduring the Holocaust wanted to leave Europe, and return to their homeland, which, at the time was a British protectorate. The British government had in place immigration quotas for that area, and the Jews were flocking back in larger numbers than British 'laws' would allow, and therefore were more restrictive than the Jews were willing to tolerate. So they 'snuck' back in large numbers, using any method they could, including freighters coming in through the British blockades!! (See the classic film 'Exodus' for a pretty accurate account of that period). Once in Israel, there were certain Jewish factions, who wanted complete autonomy, both from the (mostly Arab) occupants of the land, AND the British, who, basically controlled their occupation as a protectorate. Their immigration ceilings, were said to be placed at what they were, because the British didn't think they could handle such a large influx of people, given the infrastructure, at the time.
Certain Jewish groups acted as what today would be called 'terrorists'.
Of course that is all in perception. What is today's 'terrorist', if they are successful, is tomorrow's 'Freedom Fighters' (depending on who wins). Ironic, being as the Boston Tea Party, in protesting Britain's high taxation without representation, dressed up as Native American Indians!!!!...to disguise themselves, and leave room to shift the blame!!!

OK, fast forward: Then there was the The Oslo I Accord or Oslo I, officially called the Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements, or Declaration of Principles...and instead of typing a bunch more I'll just Do This.
Now, Israel, since has made concessions to the Palestinians, and claim that the Palestinians have broken that, and every peace or cease-fire treaty since. So they hold their line on their justifications for retaliations, while the Palestinians hold theirs in breaking the treaties. Two things to keep in mind, and this is something that Israelis are well aware of, that Iran, and other Muslim controlled governments, are funding the Palestinians,and others, to 'wipe Israel off the face of the map'..(their words of intention, not mine). The Palestinians, want a homeland, which is completely understandable, as do the Israeli Jews, understandable...However, with a different agenda, the Palestinians are being USED to fight a proxy war for Iran!! (Sorta reminiscent of those 'Indians' at the Boston Tea Party, huh?)..Israel defends itself, Palestinians get beat up, everybody bitches at Israel for being the 'aggressors', and using 'tactics' they learned from the German Nazi's, that beat them up, pre- and during WWII.
A couple of things here...The Brits were not as 'friendly' to the Jews, or Israel, as compared to their expediency for Arab controlled oil...so there still is a left-over bias that the Brits have toward the Jews and/in Israel. You can see that, in whatever posts come from our U.K. friends. Remember, that the Jews feel they were regarded by Europeans as the 'niggers of Europe'.
The other thing to keep in mind, is that the Jews in Israel have a sense that they are fighting for their survival, not only as a nation, but as a people! Virtually every citizen is armed with Automatic weapons and gas masks! That's quite a different mindset than exists in America or Britain, where 'political correctness' has replaced common sense, as a necessity to survive as a people and a nation!!
Also, another thing to keep in mind, is that 'political ideologues' most often USE tactics to combat 'symptomatic' issues to further their agendas, instead of getting to the root of the problems, and their devotees parrot those 'symptomatic remedies'!!!!!..While the 'elite political/corporate leaders' are seeking personal control through greed, and peddle fear to achieve it. Just take a look around!!! (sorta like the political leaders use both the 'right and left', like the Iranians use the Palestinians, and other groups to settle their differences for 'power'!!!! Do ya' think the 'average' Iranian on the street gives a rat's ass about Israel??....only from whatever left over bias has filtered down to them.....sorta like the average Brit and their inclinations on how they view the struggle between the Palestinians and Israel.

Now, I have posted this WITHOUT a value judgement favoring either side of the controversy.....and as any decent psychologist/counselor will tell you, it's PERCEPTION, PERCEPTION, PERCEPTION....much like any accomplished musician will tell you, it's PRACTICE, PRACTICE PRACTICE~!!!!

Jim Carroll: "You, he and 'Guest from Insanity' have ignored every scrap of evidence placed before you.
You won't even discuss the fact that Israel continues to build settlements in the middle of peace negotiations, which will, and has probably been designed to wreck any settlement that doesn't allow continuing illegal Israeli expansion of it's territory."

Jim Carroll: "Guest from Insanity has just put it in a nutshell - "They won. It happens" - if you've got big enough guns you are entitled to do whatever you please - the 'Good ol' American' way.
And what a magnificent example he provided in the Native Americans - though I don't think he's bright enough to have spotted it. Take a look at the then-and now Palestine maps and make your own comparisons of what happened to them and what is happening in Palestine - "


Bet me!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 12:18 PM

The claim by Israel that the settlements are illegal is based entirely on its refusal to accept the fourth Geneva Convention - cherrypicking which law it will obey and which it ignores.
The international lawmakers and administrators, The Security Council say that they are illegal, Israel says they they aren't.
The judge, jury, witnesses - the rest of the world says he is guilty; Bill the Burglar says he isn't!
All of which does not get around the fact that to accelerate building on (at the very least, disputed land in the middle of peace talks is an act of open provocation showing that has no desire whatever for a peaceful settlement
When Palestine was given observer status by the U.N. Israeli retaliated by accelerating their Settlement programme, thus more or less guaranteeing continuing bloodshed - both Palestinian and Israeli, thus proving they are prepared to sacrifice the lives of their own people in order to prevent Palestine having even a limited voice in international affairs.
Jim Carroll

The international community considers the establishment of Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories illegal under international law,[1][2][3][4][5] but Israel maintains that they are consistent with international law[6] because it does not agree that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the territories occupied in the 1967 Six-Day War, due to lack of a legal sovereign of these territories.[7] The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the International Court of Justice and the High Contracting Parties to the Convention have all affirmed that the Fourth Geneva Convention does apply.[8][9]
Numerous UN resolutions have stated that the building and existence of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights are a violation of international law, including UN Security Council resolutions in 1979 and 1980.[10][11][12] UN Security Council Resolution 446 refers to the Fourth Geneva Convention as the applicable international legal instrument, and calls upon Israel to desist from transferring its own population into the territories or changing their demographic makeup. The reconvened Conference of the High Contracting Parties to the Geneva Conventions has declared the settlements illegal[13] as has the primary judicial organ of the UN, the International Court of Justice[14] and the International Committee of the Red Cross.
The position of successive Israeli governments is that all authorized settlements are entirely legal and consistent with international law,[15] despite Israel's armistice agreements having all being with High Contracting Parties.[16] In practice, Israel does not accept that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies de jure, but has stated that on humanitarian issues it will govern itself de facto by its provisions, without specifying which these are.[17][18] The majority of legal scholars hold the settlements to violate international law, while others have offered dissenting views supporting the Israeli position.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israeli_settlements

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 10:49 AM

It's very sad that once again what is considered legal might be destructive and immoral.
Then again, it's a matter of whose law is chosen to be honored and interpreted.
Reminding people that slavery was once "the law" and the destruction of native Americans was once "the law" doesn't seem to impact on the current idolatry for those whose "law"
defends their position politically. Zionism has broken international laws repeatedly.
So have Islamic extremists. One thing that the two have in common is intractable
religious beliefs. That shows from whence their "laws" emanate.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 10:37 AM

"Commentary Magazine. Another Zionist propaganda outlet/neo-conservative blog. Must be true."
As is The Los Angeles 'Jewish Journal' - an anti-Islamist newspaper which puts the entire blame of the Middle East problems on the Arabs and does not pretend otherwise
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 10:06 AM

"According to international law, Israel has a legal right to settle in the West Bank. After 45 years, Israeli settlements account for less than 2% of the territories. Our willingness to dismantle settlements and give up precious land for a hope of peace-- which we've demonstrated in the past-- is not an endorsement of the spurious accusation that settlements are illegal. It's a statement of how much we value peace."

"What is illegal, immoral and unacceptable is the attempt to use this dispute to delegitimize the Jewish state."

ibid

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 10:05 AM

"The oft-used term 'occupied Palestinian territories' has no basis whatsoever in law or fact," Alan Baker, director of the Institute for Contemporary Affairs at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs and a member of Levy's commission, wrote recently in USA Today.

"The territories are neither occupied nor are they Palestinian. No legal determination has ever been made as to their sovereignty, and by agreement between Israel and the Palestinian Liberation Organization, they are no more than 'disputed' pending a negotiated solution, with both sides claiming rights to the territory."

Baker adds that Israel has "solid legal rights" to the territory, including "the rights granted to the Jewish people by the 1917 Balfour Declaration, the 1923 San Remo Declaration, the League of Nations Mandate instrument and the United Nations Charter," and that the Oslo agreements "contain no prohibition whatsoever on building settlements in those parts of the territory agreed upon as remaining under Israel's control."

Love 'em or hate 'em, Settlements are not illegal

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 09:48 AM

Commentary Magazine. Another Zionist propaganda outlet/neo-conservative blog. Must be true.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 09:46 AM

"With its anti-settlement policy, the EU is sending a clear signal that it is acceptable for the Arab states, goaded by the Palestinian leadership, to 'ethnically cleanse' the Jewish population of the so-called Palestinian territories, the Middle East and North Africa, but that Jews living a few meters beyond the 1948 armistice lines are obstacles to peace.

The idea that the territories beyond the Green Line should be Jew-free received a ringing endorsement from Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas just as US secretary of state John Kerry sat Israelis and Palestinians down to peace talks in Washington DC. Not a single Israeli would be allowed in a Palestinian state, Abbas announced."

ibid

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 08:54 AM

"The ultimate end of the illicit effort to use international law to delegitimize the settlements is clear—it is the same argument used by Israel's enemies to delegitimize the Jewish state entirely. Those who consider themselves friends of Israel but opponents of the settlement policy should carefully consider whether, in advancing these illegitimate and specious arguments, they will eventually be unable to resist the logic of the argument that says—falsely and without a shred of supporting evidence from international law itself—that Israel is illegitimate."

The Illegal-Settlements Myth

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 08:39 AM

"The British Mandate recognized the right of the Jewish people to "close settlement" in the whole of the Mandated territory. It was provided that local conditions might require Great Britain to "postpone" or "withhold" Jewish settlement in what is now Jordan. This was done in 1922. But the Jewish right of settlement in Palestine west of the Jordan river, that is, in Israel, the West Bank, Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, was made unassailable. That right has never been terminated and cannot be terminated except by a recognized peace between Israel and its neighbors. And perhaps not even then, in view of Article 80 of the U.N. Charter, "the Palestine article," which provides that "nothing in the Charter shall be construed ... to alter in any manner the rights whatsoever of any states or any peoples or the terms of existing international instruments...."

Eugene V. Rostow

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 08:00 AM

Self-declared Zionist mouthpiece Gatestone again
You really are out of your depth here.
Your mate has proposed the mass (and inevitably compulsory) deportation of the entire Palestinian population from their legally recognised home to "other Arab nations.
You, he and 'Guest from Insanity' have ignored every scrap of evidence placed before you.
You won't even discuss the fact that Israel continues to build settlements in the middle of peace negotiations, which will, and has probably been designed to wreck any settlement that doesn't allow continuing illegal Israeli expansion of it's territory.
Instead you once again produce right-wing-Zionist garbage which, ebven it bore the slightest resemblance to fact, has SFA to the subject in hand.
Go read 'Gatestone's' policy statement, who the Institute's members are, what they say and what they have done - stop making yourself a biger prattthan you already have.
Try this one as a taster, from their own arcives.
"EU Anti-Zionist Campaign Unveiled"
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1794/eu-anti-zionist-campaign
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 06:58 AM

"The mistreatment of Palestinians at the hands of the Lebanese authorities always reminds one of those university professors and political commentators living in the U.S. who pretend to be "pro-Palestinian." They focus their attacks on Israel, and ignore the real suffering of the Palestinian people at the hands of Arab countries."

"As Israeli authorities issued permits last week to hundreds of thousands of West Bank Palestinians to visit Israel, the Lebanese government decided to ban Palestinian refugees fleeing the war in Syria from entering Lebanon.

So while Palestinians are being slaughtered and forced out of their homes in Syria, the Lebanese government is preventing them from entering Lebanon.

The Israeli permits, which were issued on the occasion of the Muslim feast of Eid al-Fitr, enabled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to visit shopping malls, restaurants and beaches in Tel Aviv, Jaffa, Haifa, Jerusalem and Acre.

But as the West Bank Palestinians were celebrating the feast in Israel, thousands of their brethren found themselves stranded along the border between Syria and Lebanon."

Palestinians Being Slaughtered, Displaced
Where are the "Pro-Palestinians"?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 03:07 AM

There's documented evidence of every single example I gave and it (and more) has been put up in the form of linked articles on this thread and every other one we've ever argued on over and over again.
We have just had a plain, black-and-white suggestion that the Palestinians should be ethnically cleansed out of the area - it really doesn't come any more OTT than that
This comes from someone who is now working on the level of lying by claiming that I, we, whoever, has suggested that the Israelis should be driven "into the sea" and is an anti Semite - the majority of this thread who oppose Israeli policy, goose-steppers.
He knows damn well I was referring to the Israeli behaviour towards the Palestinians in my somewhat, as you say OTT way, - not thick (though he is that too), he just doesn't have anything else to cling to
Brucie's suggestion that all Palestinians should be invited to "settle in other Arab nations" is plain, simple ethnic cleansing; there is no other possible name for it.
No Israeli regime has ever gone as far as to propose the removal of an entire population - they wouldn't dare; the whole of the Jewish people who suffered similar treatment at the hands of despotic regimes in Russia and Germany simply wouldn't go along with it; this is the language of the pogrom.
Guest from Insanity has just put it in a nutshell - "They won. It happens" - if you've got big enough guns you are entitled to do whatever you please - the 'Good ol' American' way.
And what a magnificent example he provided in the Native Americans - though I don't think he's bright enough to have spotted it. Take a look at the then-and now Palestine maps and make your own comparisons of what happened to them and what is happening in Palestine - add this to Brucie's "invited them to settle in other Arab nations" -and what have you got - 'bibbety, bobbety, boo'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 10:52 PM

What's the matter, Don? You can't see the similarities between the Palestinians and Israelis, with the Europeans and the Native Americans....with all those extra brain cells you have??..or do you only have those extra brain cells before you give yourself an enema???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 08:35 PM

And Goofus, you can take your one brain cell and shove it you know where.

If you don't know, photocopy your arse and look for the hole in the middle.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 08:27 PM

""Jim Carroll:"Put them in gas ovens, drive them into the desert, starve them into submission, cut off their water and electricity supplies, re-settle them on poisonous dumps.... all have a familiar ring to it.""

Are you really thick, or just devious?

You know damn well that was Jim's somewhat OTT description of the Israeli government's attitude and actions toward Palestinians, not a suggestion.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 06:24 PM

No shit, Sherlock!...They won. It happens. When the score goes up on the scoreboard, there is no accompanying explanation or editorial about it, now is there?..Just the score.....ask any Native American, hangin' out in an alley, wrapped in an old J.C. Penney's blanket with a bottle of Thunderbird in a brown sack. That don't bother you does it, Ol' Chap??
Ya' still want to take Ireland, too??

Unbelievable fuckin' hypocrites!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 05:32 PM

Now we seem to have moved away from your disgusting claim that every crime committed by the various Israeli regimes is "Jewish" and therefore everybody who criticises those crimes is an Anti-Semite....
The borders drawn up at the establishment of the State of Israel are the legal borders agreed at the time.
As the maps which have been linked to on this thread, they have been grotesquely distorted and infringes upon by a whole string of regimes made up of serial war criminals whose crimes are matter not of agenda-driven accusation but actual factual record and are included in the list of over one hundred resolutions of condemnation which have been vetoed by the U.S. at the United Nations.
Those crimes include (from the outset of the State) murderous grenade attacks on family homes in order to clear the way for the new settlers, regular incursions into the legally agreed territory of Palestine, the use of chemical weapons, heavy artillery and sophisticated armament by trained troops on unarmed and unresisting civilians, including women and children, the destruction of homes, schools, hospitals (many of these occupied), the building of a Berlin-type wall cutting farmers off from both the wherewithal to feed their families and the means to a livelihood, the deliberate prevention of fishermen from going about their trade, a now eight year blockade which has caused malnutrition – especially among children....... the list is terrifyingly endless.
You could add to this the facilitating the massacre of three and a half thousand unarmed refugees.
None of this is invention – it is all a matter of documented fact – it is the history of the State of Israel.
"proposed letting the Palestinians settle in the other Arab nations"
I am delighted that you have at last had the bottle to put come out of the closet with your 'ethnic cleansing' proposal.
Despite the extreme shrinking of Palestine carried out through the above methods, the present territory occupied is legal and is documented as such.
Go as far back in history as you want with your revolting claims, it is (now only a small part – you have the maps) the Palestinian homeland, and only a re-negotiaton will change that.
That is unlikely to happen because (as you have made clear by your refusal even to discuss the matter) the Israelis are not the slightest bit interested in negotiations unless the end result is their being allowed to hold on to the territory they are now developing illegally, but that they be allowed to continue to expand and build yet more settlements – their present behaviour which you have refused even to acknowledge makes that perfectly clear.
Your suggestion that 'the Palestinian people be allowed to "settle in other Arab nations" is identical to the British National Party's demand that "all immigrants be repatriated, forcibly or voluntarily" ethnic cleansing, pure and simple NO ISRAELI GOVERNMENT HAS EVER DARED TO MAKE SUCH AN OBSCENE SUGGESTION.
Delighted to see you have removed the mask at long last.
That the Palestinians do not want Israel a s a neighbour is not only understandable they would be ******* insane if they did, would you want to live next door to a bunch of armed thugs with a history of serial murderous violence stretching back ha]lf a century or more.
If they lived in Britain they would have been served with an ASBO six decades ago.
Now about continuing to build settlements, invade Lebanese territory and all the other thuggish acts, during a peace conference (we should be so lucky!!!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 04:10 PM

Well, here's a question to ask the ever so educated 'liberal elite'.......So, you 'give' Israel to the Palestinians, were do the Israelis go?

..and while you're at it, when the peoples who occupied the lands, what is Israel, it was a desolate, non-productive, and a non-prospering piece of dry dirt....the same could be said for the Gaza. Why is it, that in Jewish hands, the land has flourished, but in the various Arab hands, it is/was nothing?...as with the lands they are occupying now? Who's 'fault' is that?...And now that the Jewish people have made their land flourish, and prosper, why give it away to people who don't seem to want to do that for themselves???...How is that unfair???
The Jewish people had that land for over 2000 years....and the 'United States' has occupied 'America', as its country, for about 250 years...which they took and occupied by war, fraud and 'staking a claim', on other people's land, and then make them live on worthless reservations (until they discover oil and minerals).....but you seem to look the other way.
Why is that??
Why is that just peachy-keen with you, who in turn have a bug up your ass about the Jewish people and Israel??
Explain that to us...OK??

Eagerly awaiting an intelligent response.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 04:08 PM

"The suggestion is never considered that the attacking parties in the 1967 war - Syria and Jordan - should be made to forfeit territory as the price for their aggression. No Arab state has been held to account for 'ethnically cleansing' their innocent Jewish citizens whom they branded, from1948 onwards, as 'members of the minority of Palestine'. Instead, the Arab states have pocketed the spoils. It goes without saying that no Arab government has paid out any compensation for lost Jewish property.

Israel is expected to make all the concessions."

How the EU's settlement policy legitimises mass dispossession

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 11:57 AM

Wrong, Jim.

The PALESTINIANS have stated that they will not be happy until EVERY JEW has been driven out of "Palestine"- and have defined ( see their web sites) "Palestine as the ENTIRE Mandate Palestine area, including all of what is now Israel.

And I note you have no disagreement at all with the "Liberal" viewpoint, and that you believe that Jews should be prohibited from access to their most holy site.


YOU HAVE PROPOSED DRIVING OUT A WHOLE NATION INTO THE SEA AS YOU STATE THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO BE WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN FOR MANY THOUSANDS OF YEARS - THE ISRAELIS.

**I** proposed letting the Palestinians settle in the other Arab nations, as the majority of the Jews driven out of Arab nations have been settled in Israel. You know, like in the ARAB HOMELAND OF MANDATE PALESTINE, which was reserved exclusively for Moslems.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 11:11 AM

Reprint from bobad: "Europe's big mistake - when they took the West, which had been 'illegally' occupied by the Native Americans......
proceed........

GfS

P.S. The above is not refuting nor particularly disagreeing or agreeing with bobad...but it IS food for thought!..(Tends to give hypocrites indigestion!!)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 11:00 AM

beardedbruce: "So, Don, you are illiterate as well as a a bigot, or else you are an intentional liar."

Excellently said!!!..but if he doesn't see it, you might as well throw in 'stupid'!!!!


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 10:38 AM

"After all, those Jews have no right to even be alive."
You appear to be hell bent on single handedly turning this into an anti-Semitic rant against all Jewish people
YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE TALKING ABOUT "JEWS" - EVERYBODY ELSE IS TALKING ABOUT ISRAELIS
ONLY YOU HAVE PROPOSED DRIVING OUT A WHOLE NATION INTO THE DESERT AS THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO BE WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN FOR MANY CENTURIES - THE PALESTINIANS
If you are Jewish you have disgraced them - including the six million.
By continuing to ignore the subject of this discussion - the Israeli's behavior during the progress of peace talks you are indicating that those talks are of no value and the Israeli presence there is hypocritical gesturing
As Boo Boo seems to have slunk back to Jellystone Park, you are left alone to rant and spout your racist vitriol
Enjoy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 10:31 AM

Wise words from a wise man and a symbol of hope for the future:

"I really am very proud in what I am doing," says Suaed, who hails from a large family in which everyone enlisted into the IDF, many of them serving in combat units.

"I am a citizen of the state, it doesn't matter whether Bedouin or Jewish, and am proud to lend my country a hand. Yes, this is my country, and I want to serve it; and, on the way, mostly, I want the Bedouin/Arab sector to understand and internalize that service in the army will only do our society good. Social distancing and separation will lead us nowhere," he says.

'Bedouin or Jewish, I am proud to serve my country'

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 10:26 AM

Israel's big mistake - when they retook the West Bank, which had been illegally occupied by Jordan, Moshe Dayan convinced the Arabs, who had been granted Jordanian citizenship and were preparing to leave for Jordan, to stay in the naive assumption that they could co-exist peacefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 09:07 AM

More "Liberal" Viewpoint:

The Mandate Palestine territory was designated as a "Jewish Homeland" in the treaties creating it. When the Mandate Power, Great Britain, saw that there was a large degree of conflict between Arabs and Jews ( ON BOTH SIDES) they split off 77% of the Mandate territory to create an "Arab Homeland" of TransJordan. Jews were forbidden from settling there. The remaining 23% was to be the "Jewish Homeland", but was open to all religious groups. When the UN partitioned the remaining part of the Mandate, the Arabs refused to accept that, and attacked Israel. No Arab nation has ever accepted the 1948 truce line as a border ( see treaties with Egypt and Jordan)
"Liberal" conclusion: We have to insist that Israel go back to the 1948 truce lines as a border, and give the Palestinians whatever else they want.

After all, those Jews have no right to even be alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 08:58 AM

The "Liberal" Viewpoint:

Under Arab rule, the Jews were not allowed access to their holy sites in Jerusalem. Under Israeli rule, the Arabs have retained access and control of their holy sites in Jerusalem.
"Liberal" conclusion: We have to give the holy sites in Jerusalem to the Palestinians.

Under Arab rule, the West Bank was ethnically cleaned of Jews who had lived there for centuries. Under Israeli rule, the West Bank was open to settlement by Jews and Arabs, although Jewish settlement was restricted to certain areas.
"Liberal" conclusion: We have to give the entire West Bank to the Palestinians

In the creation of Israel, 640,000 Arab Moslems fled the new state, while 820,000 Jews were driven out of the Arab nations.
"Liberal"conclusion: The Palestinians deserve everything, while the Jews should be required to give up whatever the Palestinians want.


The state of Israel has accepted the need for a Palestinian state, and have arrested and kept in jail convicted Palestinian terrorists ( which they are now releasing) who have killed civilians, while the Palestinians kill anyone they suspect of seeking peace, and have stated that they will only settle for the elimination of all Jews in "Palestine", which they have defined to include all of the present state of Israel.
"Liberal" conclusion: The Jews are vicious genocidal killers, and the Palestinians only want peace ( once they have killed all the Jews)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 08:28 AM

Don T.:"Not one single person on this or any other thread has suggested killing anyone."



Jim Carroll:"Put them in gas ovens, drive them into the desert, starve them into submission, cut off their water and electricity supplies, re-settle them on poisonous dumps.... all have a familiar ring to it."

The "Liberals" here have stated this, not those who support Israel.



So, Don, you are illiterate as well as a a bigot, or else you are an intentional liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 07:51 AM

""and NOW- Gaza has already been given to them""

We have places like Gaza in the UK.

They're called prisons and we put criminals in them.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 07:47 AM

""And it is Jim who wants the genocide and ovens- I would be happy to have them go to the Arab nations that SHOULD have accepted them in 1948 but chose to make their lives hell .


But then, those here have never cared about the Palestinians- just about killing Jews.""

The meds ain't working BB. Go see your quack and get something stronger.

Meanwhile, cut down on the more stupid comments, especially where you cannot produce any evidence for the slander.

Not one single person on this or any other thread has suggested killing anyone.

A few of you Israel supporters have tried to justify the IDF's murders of Palestinians.........UNSUCCESSFULLY!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 05:32 PM

The U.N...every "so-called liberal's" dream....except when they give Israel back it's lands, after the holocaust. Some of your nonsense is indicative of how really bigoted some of you guys are!

Don't like it??..Tough beans!..It's the way it is!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 02:40 PM

BullshitBruce: Get help. Soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 02:27 PM

To be precise:



All this is bullshit, according to our resident "Black Democrats are "dumb Ni**ers" Greggie boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 02:23 PM

So the fact that the Palestinians already have a state, and it is 77% of Mandate Palestine, is meaningless to you, GregF?

So the fact that there were more displaced Jews than Palestinian Moslems means nothing to you?

So the fact that under Arab rule, Jewish holy sites in Jeruselem were forbidden to Jews, and under Israeli rule the Arabs retain and control access to the Moslem holy sites?





All this is bullshit, according to our resident "They all are "dumb Ni**ers" Greggie boy

What a true representation of the "Liberal View"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 02:08 PM

And again - a truckload of BullshitBruce horseshit, having bugger-all to do with anything under discussion .

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 01:57 PM

You seem a little confused- YOU are the one who assigns all those evil acts to Jews.

I have asked what you think the Palestinians deserve, and why.

I have asked why those Jews driven out of Arab nations in 1948 don't deserve whatever you are saying the Palestinians should get.

And I see that you make no attempt to answer polite questions.




But I see you got your signature down...

"Vicious little racist pratt
Jim Carroll"