EFDSS proposed name change

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 01:10 PM

There is no excuse for not trying if one has the ability.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Brian Peters
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 01:24 PM

I'm surprised that a couple of comments by Mo the Caller haven't received more comment.

'So many folk tunes crop up almost the same from different parts of Europe... Was there ever such a thing as 'English Folk'?

And, regarding 'Folk Song in England', that 'it contains folk songs sung in England' as opposed to 'English folk songs'.

There is certainly some overlap between historic English and European dance music repertoire, and there are the parallels F. J. Child recognized between Anglo-Scottish and European ballads and folk tales, but I know of no evidence that the English folk song repertoire closely resembles a comparable repertoire on the continent, even if we discount the obvious language barrier. Are tunes from, say, the 'Dives and Lazarus' family widespread throughout Europe? Perhaps they are - please enlighten me.

There is much more overlap in terms of folk song and dance music between England, Scotland and Ireland, but are you suggesting no distinction can be drawn between those repertoires and styles? You might encounter some objections from across the border, or the Irish Sea...

Both books titled 'Folk Song in England' - Lloyd/RVW and Roud/Bishop - are based on a repertoire of songs written mostly by mostly anonymous but almost certainly English composers, and passed down generationally in England. Shanties are definitely a multi-cultural phenomenon, but then they arose in an environment of geographical and racial mixing, which (again historically) isn't true of most of the repertoire in England.

Where we go from here is another matter. Nick Griffin's unwelcome attentions aside, nationalism has played no prominent role in English folk music since the days of Cecil Sharp. I'm fine with EFDSS involving itself with more diverse acts, and nor do I have a stonewall preference for 'English' over 'of England' - even though I doubt whether such a fine adjustment in terminology will actually attract anyone who wasn't attracted before. 'Folk Arts', to me doesn't adequately describe what EFDSS does, nor what I'm interested in, and this all looks to me like a rebranding exercise aimed simply at disposing of a name some of those involved find cumbersome and anachronistic.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 01:36 PM

Wot Brian said! Fully endorsed.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 02:28 PM

In response to my statement "It was necessary to show how the grant would be used attract disadvantaged people" 'Guest' responded "Maybe that was something to do with how they got the funds"

Quite possibly. Diversity and inclusion are a big issue these days, and is clearly a priority for EFDSS. Quite rightly - I entirely support the principle. However it was the timing that was inappropriate - we were just emerging from lockdown and activities were resuming but many people were still strangely reluctant to get close to and be breathed on by a group of strangers.

We were trying to put on an event with no certainty that anyone would turn up (in normal times we could expect up to 80 or 100). Our concerns were people's safety and the potential for a substantial financial loss. Assistance with covid security measures and an underwriting of any financial loss might have helped. In more normal times we might have gladly considered ways to help more disadvantaged people to attend our events, for example by being able to offer concessions, but it was not what we needed to focus on at the time.

The offer was well-intended to address a real need to get people dancing again, but the conditions and language used did not to me seem to understand the circumstances facing small unfunded volunteer-led community groups. I hope some groups were able to take advantage of it, but we were put off by it.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 02:54 PM

I agree with Brian, and especially his final paragraph. I can't shake of a feeling that at least part of the motivation for this is a desire to fit in with the mainstream arts world, and that the current name is seen as a bit of an embarrassment. I also wonder whether that is where the perceived barriers lie, rather than among people who actually might want to get involved.

What worries me about this is that the arts establishment has always given the impression that arts should be left in the hands of the professionals for the rest of us to consume, rather than be encouraged to participate ourselves. That is the opposite of what folk music is, and what EFDSS should be for.

The other thing that worries me is that the 'consultation' seems to have been designed to justify a decision which has already been made. No one from the EFDSS seems to be willing to engage in the debate.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 05:01 PM

but then they arose in an environment of geographical and racial mixing, which (again historically) isn't true of most of the repertoire in England. quote Brian Peters
Interesting.. The Bonny labouring Boy source Harry Cox was learned fron an Itinerant Irish Labourer,
Also some of the fishing songs [not shanties]were learned because of travelling fishermen between Scotland Ireland England

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 03:04 AM

But I read 'English' as being used in a geographic ethnomusicological sense, as if maybe it stems for Sharpe's 'English national music' ideas.

You can read it any which way you want. The exercise of a name change is to inculcate something meaningful to the wider public! And good luck with that.

Anyone remember the advert for Strand cigarettes? Powerful, well crafted with haunting music, everyone noticed it. And they missed the one thing that the buying public reacted to. That to fetch out a packet correlated with being a lonely middle-aged git. Correlation ain't causation, sure - tell that to the wider public.

And bar-room jocularity is your clue folks.

An acronym like F.A.M.E.D would go a long way, anyone care to fill in the gaps............

Folk A____ Music E______ Dance (Endeavour perhaps)

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 03:39 AM

"What worries me about this is that the arts establishment has always given the impression that arts should be left in the hands of the professionals for the rest of us to consume, rather than be encouraged to participate ourselves. That is the opposite of what folk music is, and what EFDSS should be for."

Important statement in my view!

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 05:04 AM

English Music and Periferal Activity for Today's Youth (EMPATHY)?

Robin

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Brian Peters
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 06:39 AM

Like Ray, I fully agree with Howard about consumption versus participation.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mo the caller
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 08:39 AM

Brian, my "Was there ever such a thing as 'English' Folk" was a question rather than a statement.
I know more about dance than song, though I have noticed in music sessions, tunes that I think of as English cropping up from Sweden, or Wales.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mo the caller
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 08:42 AM

Some of the professional performers are very generous in encouraging participations at all levels.
E.g. at my favourite week of the year, in Whitby.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 04:22 PM

An emailshot from EFDSS about events coming up in the New Year refers at one point to "EDFFS". Merely a typo or yet another possible name?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 04:55 PM

English Dance Forget Folk Song

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 05:22 AM

Mo, the folk scene is built around participation and many professional folk performers are very generous with their time and advice. This was not what my comment was referring to.

The mainstream arts world has tended to focus on supporting the professional arts. Whereas a considerable amount of public funding is available to encourage participation in sport, the same doesn't seem to be true of the arts. Whilst there are some signs that this is changing, it is still limited. I note that whilst funding is to be made available to community groups to develop creative and cultural activities as part of the Queen’s Platinum Jubilee celebrations later this year, they are expected to engage with Arts Council approved 'creatives', so really this is just disguised support for professionals.

EFDSS clearly wants to be taken seriously in this world. Its emphasis on professional artist development, education, crossover projects and the development of new work (rather than folk in its original forms) all seems aimed to tick the required boxes. In fairness, knowing how to engage with the arts establishment has enabled it to secure the Arts Council funding for the Full English project, so credit where due. I have no objection to it doing any of this work, provided it does not mean that the grass-roots participatory side of folk is not even more neglected than it is at present.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mo the caller
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 07:11 AM

Funny old world. The was a time when things )sport etc) were divided into Professionals and Gentlemen, with the pros regarded as servants (like a ceilidh band at a wedding still sometimes are). Now there are Professionals and Amateurs with amateurs sometimes looked down on, though their skills can be high.
I see your point Howard. I'm just rambling at a tangent.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 12:16 PM

"You can read it** any which way you want. The exercise of a name change is to inculcate something meaningful to the wider public! And good luck with that."

** "it" being the use of the word English in EFDSS's charitable objects.

No, we can't read it any way we wish. We should read it how the charitable objects would be read under UK charity law. EFDSS isn't just any old non-profit that simply change itself to suite the views of it's current officers and members. It's a long-standing UK charity with considerable assets, some of which it may not have gained had it not been a registered charity.

The 'objects' can be changed to move with the times, but I think you will find there is a very formal process for coming to an agreement as to "what the EFDSS is for". The current exercise may be part of that.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 12:28 PM

So EFDSS will be happy with the dance participation for all using largely established dance tunes and others which are fit for purpose and of course whatever classification of dance ~ traditional sword and couples etc

Now songs are and have "traditionally" been just that, however defined but this is now being augmented by new songs either using existing tunes as was the way in the broadside ballads and professionals are also using and creating "new" folk songs and are reviving existing traditional songs by creating new tunes and versions and indeed new songs "in the tradition" If you are still following me

So it seems to me that the future for funding may also be following the "new" song pathway ~ PRS and copyright issues may also be a reason for this trend

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Brian Peters
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 01:33 PM

'I have noticed in music sessions, tunes that I think of as English cropping up from Sweden, or Wales.'

No argument there, Mo. I remember 20-odd years ago being thrilled to hear a Danish band playing a tune I knew from Bob Cann as 'Double Quadrille' but which they'd got from their local tradition. The old English village tunebooks often have a few tunes with French titles, and there's certainly overlap with Northern Europe, Wales, and especially Scotland. But I would still argue that there is a recognizably English dance music repertoire, and style of playing it (like when Tex-Mex accordionists play 'The Beer Barrel' polka). The same is true even more for English songs.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 05:45 PM

Let us not fall into the trap. All Folk songs were written. And not all authors were A. Non. in centuries past (pick a number, any number)

And not all dances (or dance tunes) we dance to are from the EDM (pick a year, any year), some are er... um... modern & credited.

The message is: we are moulded by the times, and to quote some relatively modern Folk plagiarist "The times they are a-changing". EFDSS has to change with them.

The whole question of what form the changes take is not the subject of the thread. The subject is a name change and riding on the back of that is how it will be perceived by the disinterested public. Its a marketing exercise - for a cohort who are largely, by definition, not interested in commerce.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 02:58 AM

"** "it" being the use of the word English in EFDSS's charitable objects."

I really do hope that the word "English" is not now a taboo name that is no longer acceptable and needs to change ~ gawd 'elp us!

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 06:42 AM

Mr Red, the discussion arose because of the question whether the dropping of the word "English" might also imply a move from promoting English folk music to promoting all "folk arts" in England of any origin. Whilst English folk music does not exist in a vacuum and some songs, dances and tunes may have originated elsewhere, there are as Brian says distinctive styles which are recognisably English. Whilst I agree that too much discussion about what is meant by "English folk" may be a distraction, there is undoubtedly an identifiable English tradition which it is the purpose of the EFDSS to uphold.

Ray, the whole point of the proposed name change is because the term "English" has indeed apparently become taboo in some quarters. As you say, gawd 'elp us!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,28 Dec 21 - 09:18 AM
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 09:06 AM

(I quoted the objects and last Guest was me)

"there is undoubtedly an identifiable English tradition which it is the purpose of the EFDSS to uphold." (Howard Jones).

Yes, but being picky about the "objects" "...AND TO ENCOURAGE THE PRACTICE OF THEM IN THEIR ORIGINAL FORMS" could suggest something more like reenactment, which term came up above or on the adjacent 'folk a dirty word' thread.

Was something like re-enactment what the founders had in mind? Or do they mean something more like practice in modern day equivalents of their original context. So rather than singing in the cart on the way back from the fair it might be on the bus on the way back from the match. Or is a folk club, or a pub session, the descendant of the cart from the fair? Either way you might get Buddy Holly instead of the latest broadside or something from the pleasure garden.

'Folk Arts' could be a short form of "FOLK DANCES, SONGS AND MUSIC, TALES AND DRAMA". But is it Folk Arts of now or of the past?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 10:03 AM

The charitable objects are worded in fairly broad terms, and I don't think the wording Guest quotes means EFDSS is meant to encourage performance only in its original forms, or that it prevents EFDSS from promoting other interpretations. If the Trustees felt that the objects were too restrictive they could change them, and indeed charities are encouraged to review their objects from time to time to ensure they remain relevant. As long as the revised objects still fulfil a charitable purpose there should be no difficulty changing them. What emphasis a charity puts on different elements of the objects is entirely a matter for the trustees.

I'm not aware of anything EFDSS is currently doing which could be said to clearly fall outside its charitable objects, neither am I aware of any intention to change the charitable objects. At the moment it seems to be just the name itself. However I am struggling to understand how it can promote English folk if the term "English" is to be eradicated.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 12:31 PM

you cannot promote English Folk if the name is dropped.
Why not call it the anything goes dance and song society

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 02:54 AM

"I'm not aware of anything EFDSS is currently doing which could be said to clearly fall outside its charitable objects, neither am I aware of any intention to change the charitable objects. At the moment it seems to be just the name itself. However I am struggling to understand how it can promote English folk if the term "English" is to be eradicated."

No change to the name is needed in my view ~~~

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 08:18 AM

‘The English Folk Dance and Song Society’ is cumbersome and is usually shortened to the acronym EFDSS — meaningless to the vast majority of the population, and even to many people who already enjoy folk music and dance.
"There is incontrovertible evidence that many people feel excluded by the word ‘English’.
‘Dance and Song’ neglects our significant activities on music.
To many, ‘Society’ suggests an inward-looking and reactionary bureaucracy.
In summary, the name is no longer appropriate for the organisation’s multi-faceted activities as the national champion of the folk music and dance of England.
It would be easy to keep the status quo. But our Aims and Objectives include an undertaking to ‘celebrate diversity and promote equality’. We must now consider a change of name if we are to fulfil our essential ambitions of widening the appeal of the folk music, dance, customs and traditions of England.

The Board consider Folk Arts England to be an appropriate name."

What do you reckon? Looks like the consultation is over Jan 5th ~ so back to basket weaving then??

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 11:23 AM

'GUEST,28 Dec 21 - 09:18 AM - PM'

A bit of a cumbersome moniker, 'Guest...'. Most of us here find our actual names more convenient. However...

'Was something like re-enactment what the founders had in mind?'

Clearly not, if Cecil Sharp's piano arrangements are anything to go by. 'In their original forms' was presumably meant to refer to the core material, rather than forbidding contemporary arrangements of it; some would say that the core material was being altered as well, though I'd say the second Revival did far more of that than the first.

There is, however, a potential contradiction between the 'original forms' clause and the emphasis on 'new work' apparently demanded by arts funding organisations. That doesn't mean that new work shouldn't be encouraged, but there remains a question of the extent to which it should be expected to conform to the musical conventions of the 'original forms', and by what criteria conformity should be judged.

In a recent discussion of 'authenticity' I asked whether we should regard as 'more authentic' the Copper Family's rendition of 'Shepherd of the Downs', or a pleasure garden re-enactment orchestra performing 'The Shepherd Adonis' - the song's original form. Answer came there none.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 11:43 AM

Getting back to the topic, I've just filled in the EFDSS form. To my amazement, when I got to the page discussing the various alternative names (including retaining EFDSS), there was no opportunity to express a preference - just a list of the most popular names as voted for by a panel of 65 persons the selection criteria for which was not explained. Whatever you think about the name, as an exercise in democracy this is pretty poor.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 11:51 AM

Very Poor

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 01:47 PM

The discussion is continued of fb ~ hope I haven't offended anyone by pinching posts

I have come to the conclusion that EFDSS is the only option ~ it is in my mind like a Professional body for all outside of London ~ major asset is VWML

Folk Arts England says nothing and totally disregards the goodwill built up over the years of its existence and joining with folk song and dance societies

Ray

What the EFDSS has planned in the future is the most important factor ~leave the name alone, please!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 04:03 PM

Changing the name of a long-established organisation is always going to be problematic. I wonder how many of us long-standing members (no cracks please!) have actually thought for one second that the name needed changing. I do hope they consider all the pitfalls before making any changes. I filled in my form and voted for no change on the grounds that I could not think of a good reason for doing so. If it does what it says on the tin leave it alone. If I'm discussing with folkies I'll say Effdus. If with non folkies I'll use the full title happily. All an improvement on the 'Dingdong Society' which we used disparagingly in the 70s.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 04:08 AM

Whatever you think about the name, as an exercise in democracy this is pretty poor.

As I've said before, the consultation seems to be slanted to support a decision which has already been made. Not only is there no opportunity to vote on the suggested names, the questions about "Englishness" (which seems to underlie the reasons for the change) don't seem to refer to it in the relevant context.

This sort of approach to "consultation" is not unusual, but it is disappointing.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 05:35 AM

Good post by Steve Gardham 04 Jan 22 - 04:03 PM I find myself in agreement with it.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 06:28 AM

I've been lurking! Reading almost all of these posts on a daily basis. There have been some good posts, and in particular I would commend the re-reading of posts by Howard Jones on 30 December 2.28 and 2.54. On 1 Jan 5.22 (but see below) and 3 Jan at 10.03. He seems to have got the measure of it. Just one minor correction. The Full English was funded by the Heritage Lottery Fund, not the Arts Council. HLF thought The Full English title of the project was excellent.
Derek

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 10:01 AM

I'm happy to be corrected on that, Derek. I don't think it alters my underlying point, which was that having staff members and trustees who are familiar with the workings of the mainstream arts world has probably helped the Society to tap into sources of funding such as this, where you have to speak the language and tick the right boxes to be successful. I'm happy to give them credit for that. At the same time, I find it regrettable that in trying to bring folk into that (largely professional) arts world they seem to be neglecting the amateur grass-roots which have always been at the core of folk.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 10:37 AM

Can't disagree with you there Howard.
Derek

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 10:40 AM

Nicely put, Howard.

Derek, I too was very happy with the title 'Full English'. Again it did what it said on the tin. Then all of a sudden when a new batch of manuscripts/broadsides came online which I was involved in they decided 'The Full English' was to be dropped, after successfully marketing it. I couldn't tell you what it is now called. Not even sure if the organisers know. VWML Online? is not quite the business, if that's what it is. However, a magnificent resource.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Alan Day
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 06:13 PM

I went to the very first and many of the subsequent meetings of EFDSS and I found that it was a pleasant get together of musicians playing tunes and singing songs that formed friendships that have lasted a lifetime. From those early days many of us have branched into other types of music and there has been a cross over of styles , but I have never been approached by anyone to say "Excuse me this is not English". I must admit to running the first Euro Session at an EFDSS meeting and it was a full house and others have introduced these sessions to other festivals. In no way would I want to lose the English Traditional music that started me off in the folk Scene, but if rules " Only English music playing " were enforced and or other rules then it would spoil all of what has been achieved since this organisation started. My vote would be to leave it exactly as it is with the flexibility that we have all enjoyed.
Al

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 05:04 AM

Steve ... to be fair, The Full English does appear on the VWML website, here: www.vwml.org/projects Some digitisation (Take 6) appeared before The Full English, and some (Carpenter collection, I think) appeared after the project. Some of the resources that were digitised as part of TFE have not yet been placed online, sadly...
Derek

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 08:25 AM

" At the same time, I find it regrettable that in trying to bring folk into that (largely professional) arts world they seem to be neglecting the amateur grass-roots which have always been at the core of folk"

But does that amateur grassroots level even need a society? I'm interested in what specific activities the EFDSS could do that would actually make those people think 'well, seeing as they're doing this I'll join up".

I suspect that a lot of those folkies are happy to go to singarounds and gigs at their local folk club, and they don't really need to join a society to do that.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 09:10 AM

This has always been a major problem. The London-centric society, even when I first joined in the 60s, found it very hard to connect with the grass roots, particularly song. I was very lucky to belong to a folk club that had a full set of the Journals and was a member as a club. We also had a very enthusiastic dance-based regional officer based in the city who encouraged what we did and initially got our dance teams off the ground. At its height the club ran a once a week folk club, workshops, mummers team, sword, morris, clog, country dance teams, dance bands, and a folk show that went out into surrounding villages. We had catalysts who kept everything together and we were almost all in our early 20s and fully involved. However, as these 20-year olds got married and had families they tended to specialise more, still staying involved, but along with the dying off of the older members and this the scene in our area had a tendency to fragment.

Apart from the few older dancers I am probably the only EFDSS member left in the city. Although helping to hold together a local folk scene I couldn't contemplate trying to convince any of our teams to become members now. As Matt says, why would they, especially in the deteriorating economic climate?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 09:34 AM

if we look at the dance side of the society, they may have missed opportunities in the past, for example when the morris ring was actively against women morris dancers, did they show women morris dancers support? a question not a statement,
have they shown trans genders who wish to dance morris supprt?
I am more actively involved in song and lived in ireland for 31 years, so am out of touch with the dance side of EFDSS

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 09:47 AM

Matt, in one sense you're right. I'm one of the 1970s generation of folkies who the EFDSS turned its back on. For more than 50 years I've been involved as a singer and musician in folk clubs, ceilidhs, sessions and festivals, and I also help to run a regular series of dances; the EFDSS has had no involvement in any of these, and if it were to disappear overnight it wouldn't make any difference to me or my musical activities.

Nevertheless, it could do a lot more to provide the club infrastructure with advice and guidance. There is nothing on the EFDSS website which offers any advice on how to run a folk song or dance club. Back in the 1970s someone would hire the back room of a pub and advertise a club, but these days we have to be far more conscious of health and safety, data protection, licensing and copyright and a host of other stuff. I wonder how many folk clubs have public liability insurance, or are even aware that they might need it?

Of course you can now find information on the internet, but it is often aimed at businesses and it can be surprisingly difficult to find it in a digestible form which is appropriate for small voluntary community organisations.

First of all you need to know what you should look for. For example the General Data Protection Regulations (GDPR) affect all organisations which hold personal data, including voluntary and community organisations. Any club which keeps a list of members, or has a mailing list, must comply. One (non-music) organisation I am involved with drew this to the attention of its associated clubs and advised them what to do. The EFDSS has nothing, and when I emailed them for help I was ignored. I suspect there may be quite a few clubs out there whose organisers didn't learn about GDPR from other sources and which are not compliant with it.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 10:51 AM

But this is the thing though - it's accused of being Londoncentric but I don't think people would join even if it started putting on events or workshops in Birmingham or Sheffield.

I'm not saying this as a staunch defender of the EFDSS either. I'm a Londoner myself, I have been to quite a few gigs at Cecil Sharp House over the years, I did the Saturday morning banjo courses they still teach, I used to enjoy especially going to the annual christmas shindig... but I've never joined and frankly it's never occurred to me to do so.

I've also organised loads of gigs in pub function rooms, church halls and community centres over the years. It's never occurred to me to even think about insurance or GDPR and it's never stopped me doing all those things. funnily enough the only time I've ever had to think about Public Liability Insurance was... when I enquired about hiring the bar of Cecil Sharp House!

It was a stipulation of the hire I had to have it. Literally the only venue in London that ever asked me that. So I didn't bother, went somewhere else.

My point is not that the EFDSS abandoned the grassroots, it's that the grassroots doesn't really need the EFDSS. I'm in London, I go to some EFDSS events, but even I don't really need them as such - I've never been a member, and treat gigs at Cecil Sharp House much like gigs anywhere else.

I suppose, in other words, I can't really see the EFDSS lasting all that much longer - unless it gets a decent amount of funding. The grassroots scene being mentioned in this thread is by and large pretty old, it's not unfair to say. Even if a large number of 60 and 70somethings from outside London suddenly all joined the EFDSS en masse, that would only help the EFDSS for another 10 years or so.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 12:23 PM

very good points, Matt, i suppose keeping it going for another 10 years is better than not

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 01:55 PM

Matt and Howard make very good points. However, some of us need a strong central point, if only to maintain the library and website. That means accepting that any serious funding is going to come from heritage and arts foundations, and therefore we need the right people who can tap into this. This seems to be what is happening even in these restricted times. Having been a volunteer at a small museum recently that went into liquidation with the loss of important local heritage, I am all too aware of how important funding is. Whilst I don't condone needless title changing, if it helps to keep EFDSS in funding then perhaps a necessary evil?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 02:28 PM

It's never occurred to me to even think about insurance or GDPR and it's never stopped me doing all those things.

You've confirmed my point. I suspect you're far from being the only organiser who's never thought about these things. When you organise an event, no matter how small and informal, you take on some responsibilities and liabilities, and yet the national organisation for folk dance and song doesn't even mention this.

It is advisable to have public liability insurance, not because a venue asks for it but because if someone were to be injured at an event you organise then you could be held liable (if you're a member of EFDSS you already have PLI).

EFDSS has a membership problem, with only around 2200 individual members. I suspect it has become an organisation for dispensing funding given by other bodies, which probably explains its current direction. In many respects it's become an irrelevance to most people in the folk world, and yet it is the only national body for folk music, and like it or not it speaks on our behalf. Most importantly, it is the custodian of the Library, and even those of us who've nver used it have benefited from the work there of others. That is why I think what it does and what it calls itself should be of interest to the whole folk community, and not just the tiny handful of members.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 02:34 PM

Whilst I don't condone needless title changing, if it helps to keep EFDSS in funding then perhaps a necessary evil?

If that is the case, then perhaps it is. However that's not an argument being put forward. The reason for the name change seems to be to increase diversity and accessibility for those who are uncomfortable with the term "English". Perhaps there is an implied threat to funding if they don't, but in that case they should come out with it.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 02:29 AM

" Perhaps there is an implied threat to funding if they don't, but in that case they should come out with it." I agree with Howard here


Whilst it is true that H&S issues on PLI have it seems changed certainly for festivals, many folk clubs are held in small pub rooms, whilst accepting that concert clubs will have perhaps their own PLI?

I think most importantly we have to accept pub rooms rented have relied on the pub PLI ~ sometimes scams can and have happened, fake claims to accidents (at dances for example) have occurred for injury, but many are quite legitimate ~ no insurance end of dances etc

Ray