Banned in Bible School-Welcome to Our House

Subject: Lyr Add: OUR HOUSE (Shel Silverstein)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 05:20 PM

My job this week is to entertain kids for the last 15 or 20 minutes of Vacation Bible School every day. The kids are mostly in grades 1 to 4. Admittedly, my shtick has little to do with the Bible and some of my songs are a bit naughty, but the kids enjoy it.
Well, today I got a complaint from a mom, and I wondered what you think. I sang Shel Silverstein's "Our House," a song I learned from classmates in the seminary and that I've sung to kids for the last 30-some years. It's in the database (click), but my version is just a bit different:

OUR HOUSE (ALWAYS WELCOME ...)
(Shel Silverstein)

A lady came to our house, our house, our house
A lady came to find out why I wasn't in school
So, we asked her to come in and we gave her some poison lemonade
And we put her in the freezer where she's nice and cool

Yes, you're always welcome at our house
Any time of the day
Yes, you're always welcome at our house
And we hope that you will stay

A man came to our door, our door, our door
A man came to our door to sell some brooms
So, we asked him to come in and we clobbered him with a hammer
And we hid him in the closet in my father's room

Chorus

A kid came into our yard, our yard, our yard
A kid came into our yard to get his ball
So, we asked him to come in and we took him to the basement
And we sealed him inside the basement wall

Chorus

So when you come to our house, our house, our house
When you come to our house, we'll have some fun
Yes, we'll ask you to come in
And we'll take you to the kitchen
And we'll put you in the oven till you're nice and done.

Chorus

copyright Shel Silverstein

So, parents, do you think it would be harmful to your kids if I sang this song to them? The mother who complained didn't speak directly to me - she complained to our Director of Religious Education (DRE), a 32-yr-old woman who's in her first year on the job and trying to do her best to keep everybody happy. The woman even checked back with the DRE to make sure I'd had a talking-to, and the DRE asked me to watch out hwat I sang, because the woman would be working at the Bible School all week. I said I couldn't abide by that, because I didn't see a need for it. I've been singing for kids all my life, and I think my judgment on songs is pretty good. Also, I suppose, I don't like to be pushed around, especially by people who don't have the guts to complain to me directly.
I think it's healthy for kids to be exposed to a little naughtiness, even in Bible School. Naughty songs have always made a hit with kids (see Naughty Kids Greatest Hits for some gems). I think kids understand the humor in naughty songs, perhaps better than their parents do. I don't think it's good to shelter kids from stuff like this.
So, friend, can you give me some advice on how to handle this, or let me know if you think the song is inappropriate. I'm bound and determined to do Little Bunny Foo Foo and MOUNTAIN DEW (also [click]).
So, could somebody give me some sage advice before I get done in by this woman?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 05:27 PM

I'm on yer side... I've been asked to 'curb' lyrics before when I'd happily let MY kid listen to 'em, (I if I had a kid that is)

My 0.02 for what it's worth is that the above song is suitable for a kids show, sure... Especially considering that it's a great sing along... And the kids are gonna think it's hillarious!! I know I did!

{~`

As far as dealing with the complaint, I guess I'd try to get it right from the horses mouth, find out what her complain is directly and see if maybe she's flexable...

But ya can't please everyone ever, so maybe HER kid shouldn't attend the show... Or even better, maybe SHE shouldn't attend the show..

But what the hell do I know eh?

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Mbo
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 05:30 PM

Oy, here we go...sing them ESKIMO NELL (Amalgamated). They should love it.

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Amergin
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 05:30 PM

Well I do remember that Shel Silverstein's books were banned in some schools around the country because they supposedly encouraged kids to disobey they're parents. Sounds more to me though that the mother would be more comfortable if you sang "boring" songs like "Our God is an Awesome God" or things like that. But on the subject here, I say go ahead and sing what you want to sing. Don't let anyone dictate to you what they want you to sing. But then that's my opinion..

Amergin

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Mbo
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 05:34 PM

Throw in a little Rammstein too! DU HAST MICH GEFRAGT!!!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Bert
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 05:47 PM

Joe, it's a great song for kids. Stick to your guns.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 05:55 PM

Now Joe, remember, it's vacation BIBLE school.

Do you think they could have possibly been expecting children's CHRISTIAN music????

~S~

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: GUEST,Penny S.
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 05:59 PM

Would it be too awful to suggest that there are a number of possibilities in the Old Testament for a song very similar to Our House? Completely Biblical and thoroughly subversive.

Penny

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Pene Azul
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 06:00 PM

Joe, that mother should thank you for exposing her offspring to real music. Everyone should be more like you.

PA

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 06:00 PM

Well, Praise....I'm gonna sing 'em about Noah and the arky-arky, too. This is at the end of the day, after they've had a full dose of religious stuff. I'm supposed to be the entertainment.
Mbo, your Eskimo suggestion was an enlightenment. Do you think I can use Zappa's "yellow snow" song, too? I haven't been able to find any Rammstein lyrics. Care to give us a link?
On second thought....
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 06:07 PM

Joe, Joe, Joe.... don't make me come over there!

And after the hard time YOU gave ME!!!!

~S~

(PS to y'all, me and Joe are good friends, so no worries!)

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: GUEST,Mbo_at_ECU
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 06:11 PM

Joe, right here for lyrics from Rammstein's album "Sehnsucht". Lyrics are in both German and English at the bottom.

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: SDShad
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 06:15 PM

Joe--

I hope you don't mind my askin', but what denomination is the church hosting the VBS? How big is it? Helps to know the religio-cultural landscape.

Mind you, I'm a Congregationalist, and despite our shameful, witch-burning New England past, we are, these days, pretty much the most liberal mainline denomination. Scratch the "pretty much," for that matter.

But we still have our roots (at least our congregation) in the denomination's more conservative past. Our congregation is easily more liberal than some, but not as liberal as others (we aren't an ONA congregation yet, f'rinstance, which is the UCC's provision for individual churches to declare themselves "open and accepting" to gay Christians). So it's a mix of theologically-progressive hippies like me and silver-haired church ladies who don't like all the changed words in the New Century Hymnal.

So oddly, while I think I could easily get away with singing "Welcome to Our House" for my minister's kids (and I have half a mind to think he'd love it and learn it to sing to his kids too), I think there's folks in our church who would raise a stink if it were sung at VBS. Myself, I'd at least think twice about singing it. I'd have no reservations about "Little Bunny Foo Foo," I don't think, however.

But I'm not you. If it's what you feel comfortable singing at VBS, I say screw 'em if they can't take a joke (uhm, in the best possible way, of course). Stick to your guns. Respectfully and charitably and all that, of course, but stick to your guns. If they don't want the songs you want to sing, they shouldn't be asking you to provide the music.

I also agree with Clinton that it might be best to seek to clear the air with the complainant in person.

As for Praise's concern about including songs that talk about God and stuff, this bein' a church, we discovered this year at VBS that you just can't go wrong with "(All God's Critters Got) A Place in the Choir," especially if you include animal noises.

Kids always dig animal noises.

Chris

Subject: ADD: Be Kind to Your Parents (Harold Rome)
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 06:17 PM

Be sure to teach 'em "Be Kind To Your Parents" which I am surprised not to find in the DT:

BE KIND TO YOUR PARENTS
(Harold Rome)

Be kind to your parents
Though they don't deserve it
Remember they're grownups,
A difficult stage of life.
They're apt to be nervous
And over-excited,
Confused from their daily toil and strife.
Just keep in mind,
Though it seems odd, I know,
Most parents once were children long ago- incredible!
So treat them with patience,
And sweet understanding,
In spite of the foolish things they do-
Someday you may wake up,
And find you're a grownup too!

I taught this to my schoolkids and had an irate parent in my room the very next day! You can, too!

---

Note: Songwriter was Harold Rome, Copyright 1954 & 1955 - from his musical Fanny.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 06:19 PM

Joe:

We've been performing in schools for 20 years and this has happened to us many times. It's absolutely amazing what will offend some people. For example, we never do "Rise and Shine" unless we're in a parochial school where God is allowed to be mentioned. On the other hand, in some Christian schools, any mention of, or reference to, magic can get you in trouble. Also, we haven't done Mountain Dew in many years because every school is pushing an anti-drug program and that includes alcohol.

So, if you want to make a living playing in schools, you have to be very careful of your repertoire. There are many songs we never sing in any school, some songs we never sing in certain kinds of schools, and some songs whose lyrics we've changed to reduce the possibility of offending the hand that feeds us. Even prostitutes do better when they provide the kind of service that customers want.

If you're not depending on this for your living (and we know that you're not), do what pleases you. The prostitute analogy applies here, too. That's what we do when when we perform outside of schools.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 06:39 PM

Chris - our Vacation Bible School is in my Roman Catholic parish. VBS is kind of a new thing for Catholics, and it seems to be working quite well. Thanks for suggesting "A Place in the Choir." That's a song I've been meaning to learn, so I'll get right on it.
Allison, your suggestion of "Be Kind to Your Parents" is a perfectly sneaky way to get back at the anonymous complainer. It's on my song list for tomorrow.
Jerry and Bev, I don't know whether to cringe or giggle at your "prostitute" analogy. It really cracked me up, but might become a nightmare later on. I'm retired at the ripe old age of 51, and being a volunteer lay minister is what I consider to be my occupation. I had 8 years of Catholic seminary training (before I dropped out when I discovered the opposite sex), and I'm finally able to do what I was trained for. Although I don't get paid, I'd like to be able to keep doing what I do. I've been doing it for a long time already, though, so I don't worry much.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Bradypus
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 07:10 PM

Joe -

I've just spent this evening preparing for our equivalent to VBS ((HBW, which won't be until August), so it was nice to drop in and find the same sort of thing being discussed.

I think 'Our House' is right on the border between OK and not OK. My first thought was it's OK, just, but I'm not surprised that someone complained. My wife looked at it and said No, she wouldn't do that at Brownies.

Unfortunately we don't usually have time at HBW for nonsense songs, but if we did I would be conservative in my choice, because I know the range of parents we've got, and I wouldn't want to offend. Fortunately there are a lot of good nonsense songs which can be used - do you know 'Once an Austrian went Yodelling' ?

Bradypus

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 08:23 PM

Joe, it sound to me like that mother suffers from an extreme case of NSOH. Seems to me you're biggest problem is going to be whether or not the new administrator backs you up. The mother is just being silly. She probably things the world is round too.

DougR

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 08:31 PM

Joe: I have to say that the rebellious part of me wants to tell you to the them to perform an anotomically impossible act. However, have dragged a seabag around the block a few times and dealing with a fair portion of Christianity (Both Protestant and RC) I don't know how much manure you can get into singing that song. I personally see nothing at all wrong with it but the fundamentalist mindset and indeed, musc of the devoutly religious mindset is a wee bit different from mine. My advice is to talk to the mother and find outr waht her objections are and if there is room for compromise. Also find out just how much the school will support you if yopu sing it and she gets nasty. If they haven't given you guidelines, ask for them. You might just be the entertainment but they may view it as their hinies being on the line. I just read this and it's surpriseingly mature for me. Quick! give me a beer and tell me a really juvenile joke!! Neil

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 08:43 PM

Reminds me o fone of my sisters not taping our Cynthia Gooding album for her children because one lyric mentions the word Maidenhead, and she didn't want to get into explanations. Somehow, when we were children listening to that album, we never asked, and by the time we were old enough to care, we already knew the word ... so I didn't understand it at all...
But I guess the people I know who call themselves Christians rather than Americans, or wo/men, or whatever, would object to songs about killing off grownups. But when I was a kid we also read Strewelpeter...

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: paddymac
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 08:55 PM

Lots of good responses given by earlier commentators, but maybe it would be useful to find out why the lady got PO'd. I suspect that she heard the lyrics from the "adult" part of her head and focused on the literal meaning. A "child", big or small, wouldn't be so literal, but would be far more likely to laugh at the sheer preposterousness of the images. Teens, however, being the weird creatures that only they can be, might find yet some other interpretive device.

You could probably turn the offended "adult" into an ally if you sincerely thanked her for pointing out a view that hadn't occured to your inner child (innocent as we all know it is), and then adjusting the lyrics to something even goofier from a kid's perspective, but less violent from her adult view.

It's also quite possible that the complainant is an utter ass beyond responding to the milk of human kindness, in which case some deservedly rude rejoinder might be more appropriate.

For myself, I don't think I'd get my knickers in a wad over what is legitimately a "gray zone" dispute.

We'll still love ya no matter how you resolve the conflict.

Slan!

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Mbo
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 08:59 PM

Classic Aerosmith song for kids right here.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 09:06 PM

Well, ya know, with 2 year olds with guns wandering around you can't be too careful with "violent" lyrics, might just affect them negatively--*BG* I think everything I would have said has been said, but I would err on the side of caution, just because it is VBS, not Boy Scout Camp.

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Marion
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 09:59 PM

I don't have any advice, but I just want to say that this sounds familiar! I once taught English part-time at a small private school for the children of Iranian graduate students in Toronto, and it was quite a conservative place, with girls of 7 or 8 in veils, and several pictures of Ayatollah Khomeini up on my classroom walls.

I did a little singing with the kids, and once I brought in "You Are My Sunshine". I got a call from one of the fathers, who was quite nice about it but explained that that songs about love are not appropriate for children (mind you, I only used the chorus, not "as I lay sleeping, I dreamt I held you in my arms..." This was both humourous and shocking to me. "You Are My Sunshine" for mature audiences only?

I just hope that the kids fondly remember me as the teacher who taught the dirty song...

Marion

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 10:49 PM

Iranis are super fundamentalist nuts.......had one absolutely determined to marry me once, and I finally told him my Grandmother was a Jewess and a Zionist. Shut that off finally and completely.

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 11:24 PM

Sorry if that sounded discriminatory, but read the book "Not Without My Daughter".....I do not go in for drowning girl children just because they talked to a male person, nor do I believe in chadors.

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: DADGBE
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 12:09 AM

Hi Joe,
Don't know what you should do. DougR hit the problem right on when he suggested that the administrator is the one who could make or break the situation.

A similar situation got me fired. I was teaching in a public school as a music instructor sent to the school by an agency (which shall remain nameless) which supplies music and dance programs to California schools who can no longer afford to keep full-time staff to do it.

One day during Christmas season I did a unit of songs about Christmas which I had collected from kids. We had all been bombarded with X-mas Muzak for weeks and the kids were sick of it. They expressed their disgust by creating wonderful hostile parodies. We had talked about parodies earlier and how they often got created out of annoyance at something so the kids were primed. A six year old taught me a song about killing Santa which I shared with the class and it was a big hit...but a parent complained to the principal. He complained to the administrator of the agency and I never worked for them again.

Let us all know how this turns out, Joe.

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 12:31 AM

I can hear this song......."I saw Mommy killing Santa Claus"..........

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Mbo
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 12:38 AM

"Poisoned him with Mistletoe that night..."

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: DADGBE
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 12:40 AM

That's great Sorcha! Actually, it was to the tune of 'Joy To The World'.

Joy to the world 'cause Santa's dead, we barbecued his head,
And what about his body? We flushed it down the potty,
And 'round and 'round it goes, (2x)
And 'round and 'round and 'round it goes.

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 12:53 AM

Well, I've got:
I saw Mommy killing Santa Claus,
Underneath the guillotine
(unless you like Mbo's line better......)Take it from here, it's Christmas in June, after all.

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Barbara
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 01:15 AM

Geez, Ray, was my daughter only six when she taught you that? Time flies.
I personally got fired from my Sunday School job for playing the Beatles and talking about the songs... but that was a while ago... 1966, actually.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 02:10 AM

Marion - my 4 yr old has been singing this wretched song all term thanks to her school! How can singing about love be inappropriate for children - it was one of the few untainted parts of our lives left, and now, it seems that even that is dirty and shameful..... Mind you, she insists that it is "you never notice how much I love you" - I suppose that could be a little less suggestive than "you never know, dear".

Joe - You could sing nothing but saintly hymns all day and someone will still complain. You really do have to tread carefully. I would suggest that you tell the Padre or whoever hired you that you will seriously review all your material, and refrain from doing that particular song whilst the parent and child are attending. You can sneak it back in when they've gone.

Of course, pointing out all the instances of violence, rape (King David had Bathshebas' husband killed and then tried to marry her the same day), murder, incest, ritual sacrifice, child abuse (who would deliberately take their only son up a mountain and then threaten to kill him at the top?) and so on.... that are all part of the Bible.... (bet they don't teach about Jezebel and the dogs licking her up when she fell off the tower..... and most kids would LOVE that bit!) would probably not endear you to this lady's heart either....

Do as your concience tells you, and make sure you have nothing to regret.

LTS

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 02:37 AM

Well, I do have a problem, since the woman who complained seems to prefer to remain anonymous. I didn't push the issue, but the director of Religious Education didn't offer to put me in touch with the woman. I really don't have to worry about the security of my standing in the parish - the pastor seems to think I can do no wrong.

So, anyhow, this is what I'm gonna do - I'll make a lesson out of it, and explain to the kids how it's one of my favorite songs for kids and how I've been singing it for hundreds of kids over the last thirty years, and how most kids have liked it. There have been a few kids who didn't like it (including my own nephew, when he was four years old) - but that's OK, because it shows that they're thinking. That's what we want them to do, to learn how to think things out for themselves.
If somebody says they don't like the song, that's fine. If somebody says I shouldn't sing the song because they don't like it, then that's a problem. The song was written by Shel Silverstein, who has written a lot of things that a lot of people think are very good for children - and then I plan to read an obnoxious poem or two from Silverstein's Falling Up. Then I'll talk about some of the other children's literature that I like, stuff by Judith Viorst and Mercer Mayer, and even Mark Twain - and that not everybody has to like everything, but they should be careful not to try to stop other people from enjoying it.

Anyhow, that's how I plan to attack it. I hope our errant mommy learns her lesson. Thanks for the advice, everybody.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 03:18 AM

Joe, I get complaints all the time from well-meaning people. It all depends on whose ox is being gored as a well-known Catholic dissident once said. I perform a lot for children, in fact, I have a new kids' CD out, and 100% of the kids love the stuff, while 99.9% of their parents like it. However, it is that .1% who can make your life a misery. Most performers can relate horror stories of having a wonderful audience, with everybody but one person loving their show, and it is the complaint of the one person who gets the performer fired. If you can, try to find out what the parent objected to. I have a feeling it is the gun thing- especially round schools these days. The original lyric to the song was: We asked him to come in, and we shot him with a .22, And sealed him up inside the basement wall. Perhaps that parent heard that lyric. If the parent won't talk to you, there ain't much you can do, but at least you tried. ALL the best, Seamus

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 04:04 AM

Well, Seamus, I didn't hear a recording or see a printed text until I came across a Clancy Brothers recording 25 years after I learned the song. I've always used the lyrics I posted in the first message. I don't think my lyrics have quite the "bite" of the lyrics that are in our database. Since I'm singing for kids, I think that's appropriate. Besides, I don't like guns.

Candy is dandy
But liquor is quicker.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: late 'n short
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:33 AM

Joe,

You're probably better off sticking with "safe & silly"-although I could make a case for including this song with the latter, depending on how you sing it. From my experience with these programs, you may be the highlight of the day for the kids and they will entertain their parents with anything new they learn from you. Have you tried writing a song with the kids...maybe about what they learned that day?

Working with a new DRE, or with anyone new to a position, can be tough. I suspect she may not be real sure of herself yet and from your original message it seems as if she was more concerned that someone complained than she was about the song itself. I've been involved in a fair amount of church activities and it seems that the "half & half" rule always applies: no matter what you do, half the congregation likes it and half doesn't.

Just as an aside, I think it's great for the kids to have a man involved in the program. These things are usually dominated by women and a male presence is a real plus for the program.

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:15 AM

Iranis are super fundamentalist nuts. Sorcha, I know you don't mean this but I wish you wouldn't say it. I have friends and coworkers from Iran who are as appalled at the fundamentalists in their country as I am with the ones in ours. Does the Oklahoma City bombing typify American ideals?

Lecture over.

I used to sing the song about the "railroad running through the middle of the house" and put each of the children on the tracks in turn. They laughed but one mother accused me of traumatizing her son. She has a right to protect her child, I guess. I thought she was ridiculous.

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:17 AM

Hey Joe.

Whaddaya think Jesus would do if called to serve in this situation?

~S~

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 12:36 PM

Joe, I hate to go against the consensus, but I think you were out of line. This song basically celebrates random violence of the most repellent sort -- admittedly, it does it in a humorous way, but it pushes the envelope a little too far for my taste. I think you should apologize (it won't kill you) and be a little more judicious in the future.

In case you're wondering, I'm not Christian, and don't have a great deal of patience for the more reactionary fundamentalist types. I also really enjoy Shel Silverstein, and I'm not overly censorious with my own children. But come on -- you were singing to kids about the joys of bludgeoning people to death with a hammer, poisoning them, etc. I think you could have chosen your material a little more wisely.

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Fortunato
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 01:34 PM

Joe. The Silverstein song you chose, when sung in the context of humor, and tongue-in-cheek violence, something like the cartoon "Road Runner", is certainly a crowd pleaser. What children wouldn't laugh? In a children's workshop where entertainment and singalong are the points, it seems appropriate to me.

If, however, vacation bible school is held in your community not to be entertainment, but an opportunity for religious tenets and/or values to be presented or reinforced AT ALL TIMES, then comic violence might not be appropriate. I suspect however, that your boss knows the value of a little non-relgious fun and supports it. I would guess that your class had a lovely time and came away thinking: "VBS was fun today", making them more likely to return for more. And that, after all, is what your church really wants, young people returning and relating. I think your contribution is a gift of great value. congrats on your service to the children of your community.

regards, Fortunato

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 02:03 PM

Joe...

Is it about your rights?

Much love,

~Susan~

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 02:58 PM

Bah. Some of the stuff here is truly infuriating. Ban bible school. Hell, ban all organised religion and indoctrination.

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: SDShad
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 03:17 PM

And ban all discussion of same by anyone who wants to discuss it? Interesting concept of liberty you've got there, Richard. How exactly do you foresee enforcing these bans on free speech and assembly?

I'll see your Bah and raise you a Humbug.

Chris

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 03:21 PM

RB, See PM.

To anyone-- I am sitting here stunned past laughter at the realization that a substantial part of the world has this to say:

"You Christians are all alike! You always [whatever]!"

And the reality is that Christians are so different from each other that we can hardly ever agree among ourselves on anything really important, or even on what is really important!

~S~

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 03:26 PM

Someone whose thinking I respect very much once said, "Think before you kneejerk".

~S~

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 03:40 PM

Susan, I hope you weren't reacting to my posting. I'm not a Christian myself, and I do have some major points of disagreement with many of the more conservative Christian elements (who seem capable of making more noise and grabbing more headlines than other Christians). But I don't paint Christians with a broad brush, and hope I haven't given that impression. I respect your beliefs, and appreciate the way you have always expressed them in a positive way. I would hope this discussion would not degenerate into bashing any particular group; that certainly isn't my intention.

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 03:51 PM

No, WS, not at all!

~S~

Subject:
From: georgeward
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 02:20 AM

Joe, On the basis of forty years of being camp counselor, teacher, artist-in-ed...oh yeah, and parent: 1) Context and tone matter a lot. And I'm not sure we can second-guess your sense of how the kids, as a group, were taking the song or how you were delivering it. From what I've read here, you could have been (and, given your experience, probably were) doing something that really meshed with kids' senses of humor and was appropriate.

On the other hand, purely as material "Our House" is on the edge. I've seen kids' performers do that sort of stuff with an insensitivity to its potential scariness that appalled me. Even us geezers have to be careful about indulging our own immaturity around kids for whom we are responsible. But if you weren't being careful and concerned, you'd never have started this thead in the first place, no ? So...

2) What no performer ever knows is what innocently delivered line may really hit an audience member hard. A kid who had a godawful nightmare the night before, or one stoked with anxieties because of family issues he/she may not even be consciously in touch with (I was one such), may go off like a fire alarm. You're fortunate if you ever find out you've been blindsided that way because you may be able to put it right. Sometimes the kid tells a family member who says nothing. Sometimes the kid tells no one.

This can happen with adults, too. I once played a few bars of "Hatikvah" as a very sober by-the-way at a house concert. An audience member became violently hysterical. She was a concentration-camp survivor. Not only did I not know, neither did anyone else there until that moment.

Any performer is possessed of a kind of arrogance. We give ourselves the right to intrude on others' lives. And our audiences extend that right to us. But sometimes neither of us knows the consequences in advance. And we wind up with the unsought burden of trying to put things right.

Sometimes you just make an innocent mistake.

3) But what I've seen no one else address here is the question of whether you are dealing with a parent on a power trip. Making an issue of something (even in confidence) as a way of putting oneself in a position of some power vis a vis a staff member - or more likely the program director - is stereotypically common in camp programs. If you are dealing with a new director who is feeling her way on one hand, and with an "old guard" parent on the other, that may be what is going on. The newness of the director suggests to me that such a dynamic may be at work. No slight to the director intended. It can be a lot like kids testing a new teacher. On a few occasions when I've been a program director, I've felt a lot as though I was back in a September classroom drawing lines... and not for the kids!

George ::-.--O

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 02:53 AM

Well, everything worked out just fine. I got hold of a copy of Shel Silverstein's The Giving Tree, and read that in today's session. I introduced the story by saying that it was written by Silverstein, who wrote the "Our House" song I sang yesterday. I said that some people don't like the "Our House" song and that there is some stuff Silverstein wrote that I don't like myself - but Silverstein's writings always make people think, and thinking is what we want to teach kids to do.
Then I read Giving Tree, which, of course, everybody loved. The Director of Religious Education and the Youth Minister said I handled it perfectly. The anonymous complainer didn't say anything.

Well, Whistle Stop, I think I disagree with your statement:

This song basically celebrates random violence of the most repellent sort -- admittedly, it does it in a humorous way, but it pushes the envelope a little too far for my taste.

I'd agree that Silverstein can tend to push the envelope too far at times, but I don't think he meant to celebrate violence with the song. His vivid picture of this sweet, loving, welcoming, violent family is powerfully absurd. Is he encouraging violence, or is he ridiculing it? I think it's the latter - but it's something you have to think about for a while.

Too often, people go to church because they are looking for easy answers, for platitudes that will support their preconceptions. They also want rules that tell them exactly how to live their lives, and the idea of living by principles like justice and love tends to make them a bit nervous. I think a major part of my job as a lay minister is to challenge people to think things out for themselves. I must be doing something right - people sometimes disagree with me and sometimes write nasty letters, but the parish keeps asking me to teach a class on this or that, and I've been doing it in this parish for twenty years.

So, the songs I sang today were The Hole in the Bottom of the Sea and I Am a Fine Musician. One little girl amazed me on the "Musician" song. She very politely told me I was playing my imaginary piccolo wrong. She was right- I was holding it straight out, like a pennywhistle. I was dumbstruck - it's not often you see somebody with powers of observation like that. That's one heckuva bright kid. I hope she goes far.

Thanks for your advice, everybody.

-Joe Offer-

---

P.S. If you haven't read Shel Silverstein's The Giving Tree, you really should. Click here for an online edition of the story - posted with permission of the publisher. Click here to get to other Silverstein sites.

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Sailor Dan
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 05:09 AM

Joe, I deal with people in our Church as a lay person also. It never ceases to amaze me just how many ways you can offend someones senses. That kind of attitude shows here in this very thread. No matter what you do or what you say, you will be damned if you do and damned if you dont. But the people who are the most vocal probably have not walked a mile in your shoes. They have never been faced with the problem or even care to look at both sides of the problem.If you were to come to my Church and sing the The Lords Prayer, I'm sure some small minded individual would have a fit because you weren't part of the Choir and would want to know what right you had to sing that.

The trouble with this world is there is no tolerance for anything or anyone, except for what I think is right or wrong. The feeling is that If you don't agree with my thoughts you are wrong. People will not think or even give justification to sensibilities. They just kneejerk. The easist thing is to tell someone they are wrong and shouldnt do that again. I dont recall anyone putting forth suggestions on how to contact the ANONYMOUS parent and try to educate her. Heck she probably lets her kid watch Kung foo pictures and whatever on the television.

To my way of thinking, Even my boss The Jewish Carpenter had to put up with fearful, narrow minded public sentiment. The only difference is that he had a Plan. He pushed the heck out of the envelope. Good luck

Sailor Dan

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 05:55 AM

Having read this thread I've withdrawn my offer to give an illustrated lecture on "Sexual innuendo in American Blues lyrics" to the Mothers' Union of our local CoE (Episcopalian) church"!
RtS

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 06:31 AM

If your lady was shocked at that song, I don't know wjhat she'd do if she ever came across Eddie Lenihan in full flight.

Eddie is a storyteller and a teacher from Clare, with a great mop of hair and an incomparable way of telling stories. At a Sidmouth festival a couple of years he was doing a storytelling session for children in the Library, and he doesn't make too many concessionms - blood and guts and everything. The kids were godggle-eyed and loving every moment.

And as I went out, sure enough, there was a mother complaining "Do they do anything about checking what these stories are going to be like?" she was saying.

I suppose, looking at it the other way for moment, when you're telling stories or singing songs to your own kids, or those you know, you can take into account their situation, and you can avoid things that might upset particular children (never mind the parents) for particular reasons.

But that really can't be helped, because the most harmless things can hurt us when we're vulnerable. I sometimes sing The Cat Came Back - and I've always had a horror that some day I'll sing "now they drag the river for a liottle boy that's drowned", and someone in the room is going to have lost a child that way.

Maybe the lady in question and her chid had some kind of personal story like that. Or maybe she was just being needlessly fussy. It sounds to me as if Joe handled this one just right. Of course. And thanks for the Giving Tree and that symposium. When I was a kid I remember that On Good Friday Children's Hour on the BBC used to have Oscar Wilde's story "The Happy Prince". And maybe sometimes "The Selfish Giant.

(Only thing with the Giving Tree - if you cut a tree off to a stump, most likely it'll just grow up again - the roots are still there...)

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 07:43 AM

"If you cut a tree off to a stump, most likely it'll just grow up again - the roots are still there..." and that is the principle behind coppicing - and here is an article about it

Funny how one thing takes you to another...

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 08:43 AM

Joe, it sounds like you resolved this situation nicely, and I agree that The Giving Tree is a great story (I enjoyed reading it to my own kids when they wer eyounger). I still feel that the song you sang goes a little too far -- whether it truly "celebrates" violence, or ridicules it, to my way of thinking a song about killing people for sport is questionable at best, particularly when it's being sung to children. But it's okay for us to disagree about that, as long as we're prepared to think it through with a little humility and respect for each others' views.

Which brings me to Sailor Dan, who seems to assume that a viewpoint different than his own must be evidence of narrow-mindedness and kneejerk reactions. My suggestion is to at least start with the assumption that people have valid points of view, and they should be considered with an open mind. This is a question of where we draw the line for our kids in a world in which they are bombarded with violent messages from every direction. Reasonable people can differ about exactly where to draw the lines on such things. But even if we end up with differing views on a question like this, can't we treat one another with respect while we're considering it?

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: MMario
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 09:14 AM

Having dealt with communal story telling at kid's camps for years, our problem has always been getting the KIDS to cut back on the blood, gore and violence. What THEY put into a story far exceeds anything I have ever heard an adult tell to a group of kids. And they tell me they tone it down for the adults. As one said to me last night "we know you old folks have weak stomachs"

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 09:19 AM

Well I want to complain about the choice of The Giving Tree- after all, that tree was just a doormat for the little boy's convenience. Men! They think they can just use you up, spit you out--- JUST KIDDING! IT'S A JOKE!!!!

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: JedMarum
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 09:27 AM

Joe, great song. Appropriate place to sing it. Tell the old biddy to get stuffed! Don't coddle her small minded wickedness; nip it in the bud. When she is perfroming for the kids at VBS she can choose her own music. And tell your youthful director not to take the unreasonable objections of the shallow minded seriously; they'll ruin her life.

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: SDShad
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 09:28 AM

Unforunately, Animaterra, it's not a joke. Damn, I wish I could find the reference to this, but within the last month I read an account of some stick-up-their-butt busybody protesting the use of "The Giving Tree" as a children's book at school because it showed the tree as female, being subservient to a male.

I kid you not.

Chris

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Jed at Work
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 11:22 AM

... the shame of it is, Chris, that these small minded malcontents are even listened to.

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: late 'n short
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 02:31 PM

Re "The Giving Tree": a teacher friend of mine said she would never read it again in her classrom when I told her that Shel Silverstein was also a major contributor to Playboy.

And so it goes...

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Art Thieme
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 06:05 PM

Hi Joe,

At the risk of doing something I do too often here, I'll repeat myself yet again.

Thirty percent of the people are against everything all the time.---supposedly from Bobby Kennedy

It's like the guy (me?) who, while getting a standing ovation from the concert hall, only hears the few who are booing.

I'm a secular atheist Jew who has been married to a Jehovah's Witness for 33 years. After actually learning and knowing that we are not going to change each other, we lovingly and respectfully agree to disagree. It "keeps her on the street" and gives me the chance to watch the R-rated films I like so much.

As Pete Seeger once said, "Viva la difference. That's what makes horse races." Just move on to the next gig where, hopefully, those that didn't like something keep quieter about it.

Love to all,

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Frankham
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 06:53 PM

My problem with the song is that I don't think it's funny. I don't think violence is funny. The bible is filled with violence but last time I looked it wasn't meant to be funny.

So I think the song is in bad taste. Particularly for kids. It's for example not as clever as "Rickety Tickety Tin" by Tom Lehrer which I would never sing for kids.

Some might argue that singing songs like this is a catalyst for anger. It's better than employing actual violence. I think the jury's out on that one.

I always have to ask what effect a song has on an audience.

Frank

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Bert
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 06:57 PM

Er, Frank, you're not supposed to take it seriously.

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 11:39 AM

Funny is an odd concept. It's very personal, and what one person finds hilarious can leave the next totally blank. But there's an assumption people seem to make that just because you don't find something funny, it's because "you don't get the joke" - you don't understand it; impocation being that you've got a defective snese of humour, and that's the biggest insult you can give someone.

Tell someone they are mean, or selfish, or whatever, and they'll likely even start preening themselves for it - tell them they haven't got a sense of humour and you've made an enemy for life.

It's as if there's "funny" out there, objectively to be seen by anyone one who isn't lacking some essential facility. But it's not like that at at all. It's much more like the way we like some flavours and smells and not others. Personal. My wife hates the aroma and taste of melons, I love them.

Anyway, Joe's song comes across to me as funny. And fundamentally anti-violence as well, paradoxically.

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: paddymac
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 01:46 PM

Well, if you really want to promote Shel Silverstein's stuff, and get even with the offending parent at the same time, why not teach the kids "Green Alligators". But first, swear them to a solemn promise to go home and teach it to their parents.

And, yes, Candy IS dandy, and liquor IS quicker, but sex won't rot your teeth or pickle your liver.

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Wesley S
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 02:04 PM

I think that I would be tempted to sing the song again and ask the children if any of them were tempted to do anything violent after hearing it. It would be a way to get them talking about violence in general and weather songs { or television, movies or rap music } have enough power and influnce to make people violent. Who knows - they may even start thinking for themselves.

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: folk1234
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 02:56 PM

Very interesting thread and many great comments. I'd like to add one different perspective that hasn't been mentioned.
Unfortunately, we now live in a different time compared to that wonderful time in the 60's when Shel Silverstein did his best work. Remember "Lizzie Borden" and the Pot song done by the Chad Mitchell Trio. They were hilarious and widely acceptable. Somehow, I just don't think they would fly today. What was acceptable then MAY not be acceptable now.
One of the societal outgrowths of the 60's and 70's was that we all learned that we had a right to protest. And protest we've done - about nearly everthing.
I like "Our House" and other naughty songs, but I, as a member of our currently PC society, can understand why others may be offended.
To Joe: I fully support your freedom, as a performing artist, to do what you want to do.

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Alice
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 04:08 PM

Joe, I'm very supportive of your work and your committment to it. I am thinking of what someone wrote earlier here when I read the thread yesterday. Unless you know the kids you are singing to, like your own, or a group that you are familiar with, there could be kids listening that have experienced deaths of loved ones, break-ins into their home, sexual abuse, molestation.... I never was so aware of this until a three year old daughter of a friend was raped by her stepfather. She was playing with a birdhouse at the time, and he picked her up and carried her in a garage where the crime was done. The police found the birdhouse in the garage where she dropped it. She was a playmate to my son, and spent alot of time at my house. One day, I was trying to point out to her the birds going into the birdhouse in my back yard. I turned around to talk to her and she had disappeared. I searched for ten minutes, calling her, and I found her crouched, hiding as far back under a bush as she could crawl. I then remembered the significance of a birdhouse to her.

So, I am just saying that kids love satire, they love dark humor, and I know I loved to sing those kinds of songs when I was a kid. I think it is just prudent to sing them to kids that you know will not have a trigger of some kind that will be set off by the imagery.

keep singing.

Alice

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Rex
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 05:49 PM

What a coincidink. I'm helping with my son's Vacation Bible School this week. But I'm not playing any tunes or singing. I'm just helping to keep the little urchins reined in and when something heavy needs moved around. I don't really want to join in with the music making in this crowd, they're playing to the tune of Louie-Louie, Pharaoh-Pharaoh, Let my People Go. Yep, I think I'll stay out of that.

Rex

Subject: RE: Banned in Bible School
From: Hollowfox
Date: 30 Jun 00 - 11:28 AM

For what it's worth, you're in good company. Back around 1981, I read in (of all places) the Americal Library Association's Journal of Intellectual Freedom that Michael Cooney got in trouble for his popular group participation son "You Can Plant a Watermelon Vine on Top of My Grave (and Let the Juice Seep Through)" because someone thought it advocated grave desecration. And when Tony Barrand, John Roberts et al first did their Noewll Sing We Clear pagent, a (secular) school district in Vermont wouldn't allow Bitter Withy in performance as it was sacreligeous.