BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: heric
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 07:00 PM

I don't think you need to worry about gnu. I just got a photo here over the wires showing a news item of the Newfie terrorist attack on Toronto. It shows a hang glider heading straight into that tower, whatever it's called. ("Death Toll: 1.") It's a good picture but I can't post it.

Guest Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 06:38 PM

Hey Steve, I don't think the Piper will do it. Warm up that clapped out 727 and let's have a go. Once Bill and Gnu get going we could be in real trouble.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: gnu
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 06:19 PM

Bene vedire, bene esse (spelling ? anyone ?). That's all the Latin I know, save for the legal shit. Meaning, in my interpretation, "If it looks good, it must be good." We used use this as our motto when I was doing a Masters in Transportation Engineering.

It's quite akin to the subject of this thread.

Essentially, postulate and "prove" and hope nobody refutes. If you make it look good (or complicated) enough, nobody will oppose it. We use to fill the appendices with reams of paper from the computer room floor which had nothing to do with the hypothesis... not with engineering papers, of course... only with the papers we had to do for the Economics or Business faculties. Great fun over a few beers at the Faculty Lounge on Friday night.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 06:06 PM

ummm...Murray...*grin*....here is a copy & paste from another site on William of Occam (various articles cited, then:
"The force of these articles is to emphasise that Ockham (a) is not recorded as having, and (b) wouldn't have, said `Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem' (Don't multiply entities except by necessity). He did say `Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitas' (plurality shouldn't be posited without necessity). Similar forms are found in the writings of his teacher Duns Scotus (c1266-1308)[1]. "

mine was 'slightly' wrong, but was from memory from 30 years ago...I got it from one of my first Phil. classes, and the prof. was NOT one to get those things wrong!

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 05:44 PM

No, but if we fly the Piper into it there's a chance.

Kiss me fool!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 05:23 PM

LOL - I read all articles with a cocked eye - one can make them say anything - and they didn't even miss a pace when they threw it in -

Not a problem Dan - Nice to meet you by the way -

Think we killed this thread yet????

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 05:20 PM

Matter of fact there weren't any resources - just a blanket statement about Hitler's (did you all know it was Hitler that developed the drug?) army and their ability to fight for "days" with the drug - and then a quickie about Kamikaze Pilots. Kind of had to dig for that didn't they?

Sorry - still not buying it -

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Dan
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 05:19 PM

Thanks, Steve. Actually I wasn't sure if you were biting my head off or not, so I was just checking. Yes, I've done speed and I can imagine being one helluva kamikaze on it, but no, I have never seen real conflict. I can take your word for it as well as some web page. It didn't strike me as all that outlandish on the face of it, though.

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 05:12 PM

LMAO @ katlaughing and gnu!! Bunch of kisses might get parts of us straight.

Dan - Have you ever done meth? Have you ever had it in your system while someone was trying to kill you? Or while you were trying to kill someone? My experience with it was a lot different from what your article presented. As far as the article went I didn't see any reliable resources to back up their claim. I'll take the word of someone who has been there and been highly recognized for the act before someone with a hypothesis.

Matter of fact it was a hypothesis that started this whole thing. Sorry if I bit your head off - when it comes to veterans I am very sensitive - and I don't care who they fought for. But to imply that a country with a code that Japan's warriors were operating under at the end of the war, when they could barely feed themselves, were sharpening stakes to fight off the "American invaders," and reeling under the massive firebombing attacks, is simply to ludicrous for me to give any credit to. I'll take their most decorated pilots word for what they did.

Most respectfully
Steve

Don't need an airliner Spaw - how about a Piper Cub?

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: gnu
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 05:10 PM

I... uh... no... nevermind.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 05:07 PM

You say---"an abiding belief in the Bushido code"---or in Christianity or in Judaism or in Islam or in whatever etc. etc. etc.

I say that a person will die for a belief-------------providing that belief isn't quite clear to him (or her).

That's the scary part. Few will think it out before the fact.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 05:03 PM

Pucker up! Peckers down!

Sorry, couldn't resist!!

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: gnu
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 04:55 PM

C'mon Kat, take one for the team, eh ?

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 04:39 PM

Well, geez, can I get in line for a kiss? Wait a minute, you guys are all...well, er...guys! Ooooo...hold the kisses, I wouldn't want to tempt you into going straight!:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 04:15 PM

Hold the kiss Steve.....I don't have the time right now to go hijack an airliner with you.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Dan
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 04:07 PM

Actually the quote rather ambiguously said they used meth to "numb fears," not to "numb senses." It's a peculiar terminology, but your claiming that meth numbing senses is bullshit is something else again. You made up that claim then said it was bullshit. I think, but am not sure, that your further implied conclusion was that the article's claim they used meth at all was therefore also bullshit.

It's easy to grasp the concept of morphine or demarol as inducing a laid back euphoria which would diminish the fear of crashing. It's not so easy to see meth as "numbing fears," although it could make one braver, and certainly more alert and accurate.

Respectfully,

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 03:17 PM

Thank you Spaw - I'd kiss you too.

And if anyone thinks that methamphetamines will numb your senses - try it out - another huge slice of bullshit.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 02:20 PM

The pilot/author Norton refers to was Saburo Sakai and although one of Japan's greatest fighter pilots, he became part of the Kamikaze because it was what was expected of him. He was a Samurai with abiding belief in the Bushido code and when the weather forced him to return from his Kamikaze mission, he felt great shame, although his commanding officer and freind was overjoyed to see him and have him back. Shortly after this the high command figured that sending him on a suicide mission wasn't the best use of resources and he went on to shoot down several more aircraft, survivng the war as Japan's leading ace with 63 kills.

The important point here is that Sakai used no drugs, wasn't gay, and the ONLY reason behind his actions came from his beliefs. Somehow I find it disrespectful to those young pilots to imply they did it because of drugs. That's ridiculous. The only reason Sakai lived to tell the tale was because he was trapped in such bad weather that he couldn't find a ship to dive into! A lesser pilot wouldn't have made it back to the base.....but this drug idea is bullshit.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: DougR
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 02:13 PM

A red letter day alright, kat! :>)

That second "saying" makes an awful lot of sense, of course.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 02:06 PM

Ah Pseudolis - I could kiss you - and, anachronistically, I'd be quite "gay" about it. Thank You -

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Pseudolus
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 02:02 PM

I too agree with Kat. I think the mistake that many of us make and the one I believe Murray has made is that we try to understand the actions of others by placing their situations in our OWN mindsets. We try to make sense of things within the boundries of our own beliefs and cultures. We can never truly understand what was in the minds of the killers that day. Remember, kids were dancing in the streets that day in celebration of the attacks because of their hatred for the U.S. I can not relate to that type of celebration and I'm pretty sure that most of us can not. But I don't live in that culture, I was not raised with the same beliefs.

Just because you don't understand why someone would do what they did doesn't make them insane or gay or any other "easy" explanation. Hatred is a powerful force. There are a lot of hated folks outside of the middle East including the U.S. To try to understand specifically why, or to understand why they are willing to commit such heinous acts is futile at best. In our culture, it is perhaps easier to understand the retaliation. We may not all agree with how or what but at least we understand the motivation.

Finally, to say that no one would choose certain death for a cause, in my opinion, is to belittle those who have given their lives in the many struggles this country (and others) have had. If you were in the front line of the boat storming the beaches in WWII, you had to believe that you were about to give your life for your country. They did it, they weren't insane, and they were heros....

Just my humble opinion..... Frank

P.S. I have regretfully informed my wife that I am gay. She was not happy about it but when I told her that I would in all likelyhood refuse the services of a prostitute, she understood.....I must be gay. :(

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Dan
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 12:51 PM

Don't know if it's true, but I read it on the internet:

"Japanese Kamikaze pilots took Methamphetamine to numb fears prior to suicidally diving their planes into American ships."

http://www.escapemeth.com/addiction.htm

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 12:24 PM

I remember those Buddhist monks that used to set themselves on fire on a fairly regular basis back in the Vietnam war days--and then, there were all those religious heretics during the middle ages, who could have saved themselves from the flames by simply renouncing their faith--and all those christian martyrs during the Roman times, who stood up in public meetings and proclaimed their faith, knowing that guaranteed that they'd be cast to the lions.

Last time I checked, the Christians among us actually admire people who proclaim their faith, knowing that they will die for it--get with the program, Murray!

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 12:21 PM

"No sane person will willingly face the CERTAINTY of death as the result of their choice of action."

That is the biggest bag of horseshit I've ever read. Any Marine rifleman who has watched a Navy Corpsman go out under fire to save a wounded Marine can tell you that. And read the book "Zero" by Japan's greatest fighter ace - who also happened to go on a suicide mission but couldn't find his target. Drugged? Not at all. How about the Scot's Brigade in WW-I who knowingly stood up and died as a unit in a charge. They had a wake for themselves the night before. How about the Aussies at Gallipoli - they KNEW that when they stood up and moved forward the turks were going to decimate them. How about telling my friend Art Jackson that he is insane, Art earned the Medal of Honor on Peleliu Island during WW-II, and told me he knew he was going to die when he did what he did. He did it out of love. He couldn't stand watching the men in his squad die anymore.

How about the five Black Marines in Viet Nam who rolled onto grenades to save their friends and were subsequently awarded the Medal of Honor. Were they insane?

Until you've been there you don't have a clue how you are going to react. I have an uncle that always said he would be willing to die for his kids. When one of them nearly drowned he sat paralyzed on the shore while my aunt dove in and saved her.

Your Gay hypothesis is one thing - and is something to talk about for what it is - a hypothesis.

But I would suggest you educate yourself about raw courage and the motives people carry when they willingly and KNOWINGLY make the choice to die for their country.

I will apologize for the anger in my posting here - it always pisses me off when people make statements about why men and women choose to die for love.

Especially when they don't know -

And GUEST - old men are afraid to die - that is why they enlist the young to do it for them.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 12:15 PM

All I can say is that we do now know that the last words heard on all of the black box cockpit voice recorders was the pilots saying a variation of "Get your hand off my thigh." ;-)

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 11:54 AM

Hey DougeR!

:-)

Thanks, this must be a red-letter day!

Someone else posted this a while back and it has stuck with me, paraphrased:

There will be world peace when the Power of Love is greater that the Love of Power.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 11:46 AM

But there is a HUGE difference between putting your life at risk for a cause in which you believe, and embarking on a suicide mission which you KNOW will lead to your demise.

No there isn't. "I personally would be prepared to put my life on the line to save my children." And so would most people - even if that meant certainty of death.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: DougR
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 11:42 AM

It is possible, however, that they had a snifter or two of Sake' before they took off.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: DougR
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 11:41 AM

Kat: SURPRISE! I agree with you! What a great way to say it!

Murray is viewing the world through a looking glass of his own.

I have done considerable research on WWII, and never have I encountered anything on the written page that suggests that the Japanese pilots were drugged. They flew to their glorious (to them) deaths for the love of the Emperor, and dedication to their country.

It appears to me Murray is attempting to revise a little history.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 10:35 AM

Now the Taliban are holed up and ready to give up their lives in Kandahar. Mass suicide. Guess they're all gay. Just like all those folks in Jamestown years ago. I tell ya' Murray, they'e coming in the windows.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: sophocleese
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 09:26 AM

How many Murray MacLeods does it take tp change a light bulb?

No Murray MacLeod will change a lightbulb. Having once inserted a shining new bulb into its intended socket he read the number of hours of illumination it was to give him. He carefully kept account of the number of times he switched that light on and off; he tallied the hours and minutes that bulb glowed for him. When at last it went out he realized that it had not lived up to its potential therefore it had snuffed its interior flame of its own accord and therefore must be gay. He's not homophobic as such but he cannot think why the lightbulb should have committed suicide in such a way. Attempts to suggest that others in the house may have used that light while he was unaware he dismisses because his own tally is accurate and he knows it.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 09:21 AM

You all seem to overlooking the not so noble reasons why Western governments have been willing to commit much more despicable atrocities in our name for centuries--greed and lust for power.

Remember--older men with no fear of dying for the cause are the ones who convince young men it is noble to do so, and send them to their death, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Grab
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 08:51 AM

"I have pondered the question of why anyone would want to sacrifice their life for a political ideal and until now I have not come up with any satisfactory answers."

Abraham Lincoln, Ben Franklin, George Washington, and every person who fought in the American Revolution. All gay. Boy, this puts a whole new complexion on the reason for freeing America from oppressive British rule! It wasn't to free the population from outside rule and punitive taxes, it was to allow a countrywide homosexual orgy!

Maybe there weren't political reasons after all. Maybe it was the thought of crashing into a pair of big penis-substitutes in the middle of a city which appealed to them. Or maybe they didn't believe they'd crash, and if they were strong in faith then God would let them pass through without injury. Or maybe they thought the shock-waves would pass through the Earth and vibrate the Lottery machines enough to influence all the results and make their relatives rich. I can think up a zillion of these, each more bizarre than the next, and they'll all be as valid as your suggestion, ie. a load of bollocks.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 02:55 AM

Yes, Harpgirl. And, A rose is a rose is a rose...........

Occam's razor btw has been misquoted several times on Mudcat threads so I am going to give the definitive aphorism here
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

Did I ever say homosexuals were insane? If I did I apologize (profusely) . I do believe that in certain societies( Fundamentalist Islamic societies in particular notwithstanding that book review) and pre-war British society as well, homosexuals were (are) under a huge amount of stress which may weell have caused them to take certain irrational actions. But it is all about the society, not about the individual.

btw We (Rivergrass) are playing the South Florida Fest in Jan. I promise not to make any inflammatory statements on stage ...........................

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: harpgirl
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 02:35 AM

Gee Murray. You are saying, if I understand you correctly that laying down one's life for one's children is not insane but for one's religious beliefs or because of homosexuality, is. Another hole in your reasoning is that people who are willing to commit suicide for anything other than their children's lives are insane and you are implying that homosexuals are insane. You also said as I thought might be true, that the Islamic culture doesn't look askance at homosexuality among it's men. If that is true then why would they want to commit suicide because they are gay? I appreciate the inquiry but I think your reasoning has holes in it.

I was taught Occam's razor in my PhD training. The simplist explanation is most likely to be right. I don't know what it is but I would say these Muslim's hate America and what it stands for and that's why they did it. I also think they hate America because they have been taught to believe that our culture is sick and should be annihilated. Whoa, scarey thought...but I doubt that homosexuality made them suicidal and that's why they became terrorists....

Hey, QED, the title of Gertrude Stein's first novel!! She lived a very happy life by the way, in France!!!! Go figure...harpgirl

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 01:58 AM

And what was in the suitcase? A bottle of Scotch, a jar of Vaseline and a pack of Trojans.

QED

Je repose ma valise (Exceptionally subtle joke for those with an expensibe education)

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Owlkat
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 01:41 AM

Wait a second, I'm seeing a pattern here. Of Course! Gay, tainted pork-eating pseudo-married, kamikaze, fundamentalist, muslim, 18 year old men with fantasies about being piratical sodomites! My God(s)! It's all so clear to me now. Why didn't I see it before! We must stop them! Stop them before it's too late. Listen to me! They are here! Don't go to sleep! They take over your bodies when you sleep. You must listen to me! Wait, there's a gay, tainted pork-eating, pseudo-married, kamikaze fundamentalist muslim, 18 year old man with fantasies about being a piratical sodomite living next door, and he just gave me a suitcase to keep for him while he...went out of town to look for prostitutes. I'll just open it and see what's in

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 01:15 AM

Kat, I believe that we are all brothers under the skin. Or sisters.

The will to survive is a basic instinct. The abnegation of that instinct requires some sort of pathological transformation of the whole psyche. Maybe this can be achieved by religious belief alone. But I don't buy that for one minute.

Hence my suggestion that kamikaze pilots had to jave been drugged. Any other explanation is just too implausible And let's face it, you didn't have to be Charles Lindbergh in order to steer your prop airplane into a battleship in bright sunxhine. (Ever hear of any night- time kamikaze attacks? Me neither)

But meanwhile, please note that so far I am resisting any temptation to suggest that the kamikaze pilots were gay.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 12:54 AM

Murray, it seems you are judging other cultures through the looking glass of your own. You are apparently assuming a person is insane to do such a thing. In their cultures, it may not be insane at all, but very noble.

Do you have any evidence of the kamikaze pilots being drugged? How did they fly accurately if so?

Please, please remember not all people of the world look at committing suicide-type missions the way most of the Western world does; there are so many different cultures with their own beliefs and viewpoints.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 12:37 AM

Jody, I do take your points. Many normal people are prepared to face the RISK of dying for a cause. No sane person will willingly face the CERTAINTY of death as the result of their choice of action.

The only parallels to the Sep 11th incidents are the forays of Japanese Kamikaze pilots, and God alone knows what sort of drug-induced euphoria these poor buggers had to experience before doing what they did.

I mean, even if the odds appear to be insuperable, every soldier secretly believes that he is not going to be the one who buys it this time. That is the way the human mind works, at least in the case of normal sentient beings. Sometimes the belief comes true. (My father survived WW II, minus a limb) For three of my uncles, their belief was misplaced.

Once again I cut and paste from my previous post

There is a HUGE difference between putting your life at risk for a cause in which you believe, and embarking on a suicide mission which you KNOW will lead to your demise

And, btw, I DO know that I would lay my life on the line for my kids, if the occasion demanded. I am quite sure that you would do the same.

All the best to you too

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: DougR
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 12:23 AM

I read somewhere they were transvites.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 12:08 AM

What? you never heard of Nathan Hale, Colin Kelly, Rodger Young. King Leonidas of Sparta (Thermopylae) and his 900 other soldiers, Martyrs all, and suicides all.

And, the great Belisarius, who with his 200 houshold guards and 250 barbarian mercenaries, thought they were committing suiocide to give the emperor Justinian time to escape (the Nika rebellion in Constantinople) but instead caused the 10,000 rebels to panic and turn on eachother leaving Belisarius and 450 would be suicides for a cause and very surprised Roman soldiers looking at 10,000dead rebels.

And what about, "Todd" and the others who stopped the 4th Airliner, the one headed for D.C. who said "The Lord's Prayer", "Let's Roll" and jumped on a terrorist with a bomb strapped to hims knowing that he was committing suicide.

and, Oh! Yes, JESUS CHRIST.

And, who gives a shit, anyway, if the terrorists were gay?

And, Murray, this includes you, no one knows until the moment for action comes, whether or not they are willing to die for a cause.

I forgot, for the moment, that you're a Britt and probably never HAVE heard of the first batch of names, so allow me to mention "The Light Brigade" General Gordon and all of your parents and grandparents who stood alone against Adolph Hitler between 1939 and Dec. 1941 (when Colin Kelly died to save his crew) and thought that they very well might be committing suicide for the cause of freedom, for which I am eternally grateful.

Ah yes, the Wolfendon Report, in addition to decriminalizing homosexuality, chased all the "Ladies of the Night" away from the statue of Eros at Picadilly and indoors, over the strenuous objections of the Metropolitan Police and the CID who had been using the girls as informants and getting much help from them in combatting crime. I was stationed at RAF Lakenheath at the time and hung out (with my guitar and banjo) in Soho. when this disaster occurred.

Aw Hell, Murray, I've been known to start a row every now and then, myself, including a very controversial thread in the Mudcat. Good on you, Pal.

All the best

Jody Gibson

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:53 PM

Many people have things in their lives they believe are worth dying (or killing, for that matter) for. With most folks, it's that thing that's the reason, and love is usually at the heart of it.

Include me in Jeri, there is no dispute here. I personally would be prepared to put my life on the line to save my children. And kill to save them. As any parent would.

The US Marines in Afghanistan at present (and the British and French troops as well) are risking their lives for something which, one must assume , they believe in.

But there is a HUGE difference between putting your life at risk for a cause in which you believe, and embarking on a suicide mission which you KNOW will lead to your demise.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:40 PM

Murray, you said "I feel that you are all missing my point which is that religious fanaticism alone does not drive a man to commit suicide for any cause."

Er...Jim Jones? Waco?
It may come down to whatever leads someone to be a religious fanatic that is the mental illness. They find something they think is worth dying for and then make it happen. Many people have things in their lives they believe are worth dying (or killing, for that matter) for. With most folks, it's that thing that's the reason, and love is usually at the heart of it. For many fanatics, religious or otherwise, it seems they're just trying to make their lives mean something - to be remembered. To shout "I am" to the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 08:46 PM

A online review of one of the books Jim links to above is informative

Put aside the homophilism and the jargon, both of which are a bit strong, and what's left is a fascinating and eye-opening book about a topic much hinted at but little considered systematically. The authors not only have the benefit of knowing homosexuality in many other societies but are well grounded in matters Islamic. Despite the title, they deal predominantly with men; lesbians are little known about.

As with so much else in the sexual realm, Islamic norms differ profoundly from Western ones. The authors establish several points: (1) Islam treats homosexuality far less harshly than does Judaism or Christianity. (2) Sex between men results in part from the segregation of women and in part from the poetic and folk heritage holding that the penetration of a pretty boy is the ultimate in sexual delight. (3) Sex between men is 'frowned upon, but accepted' so long as the participants also marry and have children; and also if they keep quiet about this activity. (4) The key distinction is not hetero- vs. homosexual but active vs. passive; men are expected to seek penetration (with wives, prostitutes, males, animals); the only real shame is attached to serving in the female role. (5) Youths usually serve in the female role and can leave behind this shame by graduating to the male role. (6) The great Muslim emphasis on family life renders homosexuality far less threatening to Muslim societies than to Western ones (Muslim men seeking formally to marry each other remains unimaginable).

In the most startling parts of Islamic Homosexualities, Murray and Roscoe re-interpret important historical developments through the prism of male sex among Muslims. For example, they make a plausible case that sexual attraction was a significant impetus for the development of military slavery throughout the Muslim world. Less persuasively, they speculate that the relaxed Muslim attitude on this subject incited medieval European hostility to homosexuality as a way for those otherwise backward peoples to 'feel superior' to Muslims.

Middle East Quarterly, June 1997

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 08:36 PM

The principle of Occam's Razor is relevant here. Which essentially is that if you can explain something without bringing in fresh assumptions, you don't bring them in. (That link gives a lengthier and more erudite explanation.)

Doing something in war that you know is very likely, or even virtually certain to get you killed just isn't an unusual behaviour. Nor is doing something which you know is going to result in the death of a lot of innocent people, and thinking that you are justified in doing it.

Every bomber crew in the Second World War did both those things. The point I'm making isn't that the hijackers and the bomb crews were essentially the same, because there were very important differences. But the thing they had in common was the very thing that it is being suggested requires some exotic explanation. It didn't - it just meant that they thought that their cause was more important than the survival of themselves or the people they were going to kill.

And if you're going for exotic explanations I think the Planet Zog one has more going for it. It's more exotic anyway.

(And if Doug and me are agreed on something, we have to be right.)

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Amergin
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 08:36 PM

my apologies, Murray....taking my ire out on you...

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 07:12 PM

Nat , sorry I posted before reading your kind words.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: DougR
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 07:11 PM

I assume you are referring to the one between his shoulders, Amergin. :>)

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 07:09 PM

OK, where do we start?

Fortunately, Guest Ohmygawd, I was lucky enough to have resolved any deep seated sexual identity problems at the age of sixteen.

I kind of go along with the Robert Plant school of thought, when he said in an interview many years ago "Yeah, I'd like to be gay, but I just have too much to offer to women". However this does not stop me doing an annual drag act each Halloween at our local music venue, the Main Street Café in Homestead FL. And I enjoy it! So, apparently, do the patrons.

I digress, however . I feel that you are all missing my point which is that religious fanaticism alone does not drive a man to commit suicide for any cause. We have to look for other factors. Mental illness could be a factor, or as I wrote earlier , the shame of being a homosexual in a fundamentalist Islamic environment.

And I was not suggesting that these men committed suicide because they were deeply depressed, I am putting forward a hypothesis that they could have been offered some sort of redemption deal by their fundamentalist Islamic masters. "Go destroy the World Trade Center and your place in Paradise is secure, despite your filthy sodomizing". That sort of thing.

And since none of us knows anything whatsoever about homosexuality in Islamic countries, (although I intend to explore Jim Dixon's links) then my postulate still is valid.

Let me state it one more time. I do not "believe" that the hijackers were gay. I do not "know" whether they were gay or straight. Neither does anyone else. I am simply putting forward a hypothesis which may or may not go some way to ezplaining the actions of these disturbed individuals.

Murray