BS: Remembering the Titanic

Subject: Remembering the Titanic
From: Fiolar
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 05:36 AM

90 years ago today on April 15th 1912, the Titanic met her fate in the icy waters of the North Atlantic with the loss of 1500 lives. When I were a nipper in Ireland, the story was that the ship was cursed from the start. It was rumoured to have the number "3909 ON" stencilled on it. If you don't know what that signifies, write it on a piece of paper and go to the nearest mirror. Interesting that Titanic's sister ships also had a nasty history. The Olympic had a collision in September 1911 with the cruiser HMS Hawke and in 1934 had a collision with the Nantucket lightship in which seven people died. The Brittanic struck a mine and sunk in November 1916. Basically it only re-inforced the view held in many parts of Ireland that only good thing to come out of Harland and Wolff was the road.

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: C-flat
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 05:54 AM

I don't get the numbers bit here,3909ON in a mirror makes something close to NO POPE.

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 06:01 AM

Maybe it should have been 3904 ON = No Hope ??

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: Fiolar
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 06:05 AM

No. From what I remember it was definitely "3909 ON." Anyone familiar with the history of Harland and Wolff would probably be aware of the sectarian (sadly) aspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: Lynn
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 06:56 AM

My maternal grandmother had intended to come over on Titanic but couldn't get a ticket. She came over a month earlier on the Mauretania instead. Being a tenant farmer's daughter, she surely would have been in steerage. Boy, am I grateful she missed that ship!!!

Lynn

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 07:09 AM

(bit of cookie deficiency)."They put'em down below where they were the first to go".What a line, don't you wish you'ld written that. Is thesong's author known, anybody know?

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 08:39 AM

I'm sorry but "3909 ON" - That horse won't run!
Check out http://www.snopes2.com/ (sorry I don't know how to do "blickies") and open the section on "Titanic".

Walrus

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 09:52 AM

Fiolar. What a load of old Irish Republican Bollocks...Read the history of her sister ships and remember SHIT HAPPENS....

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 10:41 AM

Take Fiolar's fanciful romanticising with a pinch of salt, folks. He must have bookmarked a list of anniversaries, and does throw up some interesting moments of history.

Here's a blue clicky for the website Walrus mentioned: URBAN LEGENDS.

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 11:49 AM

90 years and yet not one seed company has come up with an iceberg lettuce named Titanic.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 12:32 PM

Spaw: And the one I work for ain't gonna be the first to try it!!!

The "NO POPE" legend explored further here (click on these links):

http://europe.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9804/14/titanic.anniversary/?related
Excerpt: "Part of the Titanic's tale also is intertwined with the troubled history of Northern Ireland and the deep sectarian divide between Protestants and Catholics. Catholic shipyard workers, the target of Protestant attacks, believed the ship sank because it carried hidden anti-Catholic messages. They claimed the ship bore the number 3909 ON, which when reversed says 'No Pope.' "

http://www.irlnet.com/aprn/archive/1998/January29/29desk.html
Excerpt: "...when the ship sailed out of Harland and Wolff shipyard in Belfast, it was festooned with anti-Catholic graffitti and its ship's number represented the words 'No Pope'. It was a story I had heard as a child. Is it an urban myth that the number of the Titanic was 3909 ON, which, when reflected in the icy ocean, read NO POPE?"

Catholic PewPoint article here:
Excerpt: "Today the all-time blockbuster movie 'Titanic' is released on videotape and is expected to double its box-office take via the VCR route. We bring this up because of the tenuous situation in Northern Ireland today and the climate back in 1912 when the Titanic was built in Belfast, Ireland. Few know of the religious percussions tied in with that ill-fated ocean liner that plummeted to the icy depths of the Northern Atlantic.... The ill-fated ship is closely aligned with the troubled history in Northern Ireland between Protestants and Catholics. There have been many, many Catholics who foretold of Titanic's fate because of what Protestants had clandestinely done during the building of that magnificent ship. These accounts came from Catholic shipyard workers who were persecuted by Protestant radicals and threatened if they told, but it has been documented that the Protestant workers had secretly embedded a number in many areas of the massive ship that was anti-Catholic to the core. The number was 3909 ON which backwards spells out 'NO POPE' and was imprinted in many staterooms as well, strategically placed where mirrors would reflect the subliminal message. In addition, though it cannot be confirmed one of the painters even brushed the words on the lower part of the hull: 'Let God sink this vessel if He can' – then painted over it. There are other reports that similar messages, some by Freemasons, were plentiful on the first layer of the hull before the second and third coats were applied.... The sinking of the Titanic will forever be a dark moment for Protestants of Northern Ireland. In fact, the Titanic became forever synonymous with the Protestant 'Orangemen' who, after the sinking, became ever more superstitious, carrying symbols of the ship on their banners. Nine years after it sunk, Ireland gained its independence from Britain but the Protestants weren't going to go down without a fight. A Protestant rabble-rouser from Dublin Sir Edward Carson vowed to recruit between 75,000 to 100,000 armed militia to fight to keep Ireland under British control after the declaration of Independence. In fact, nearly half a million Protestants signed a covenant in which they swore to defy the new Irish rule, many signing in blood!.... The parallels with Titanic go even deeper, if you'll pardon the metaphor, for the day before the Titanic sailed on its maiden and only voyage, the Home Rule bill that would lead to Ireland's independence was introduced in the House of Parliament in London.... There were other omens. Two construction workers died in freak accidents at the shipyards while the Titanic was being built. Their ghosts were said to haunt the rest of the workers for seventeen more died of strange 'accidents' before the ocean-liner left the shipyards. Media and shipping magnates downplayed this at the time while touting the invincibility of this master ship that was 'unsinkable.' When it did sink it shook a world who had been programmed to believe the press clippings that it was invincible, and it caused many to lose faith in technology and challenged their faith in mankind.... the faithful saw the sinking of the Titanic as a sign from God."

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 12:34 PM

Oops! Lost the link to that last article, the Catholic PewPoint from the Daily Catholic. Here 'tis: http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/Sep/sep1ed.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: Dead Horse
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 07:07 PM

Still no news of the iceberg?

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 07:52 PM

One of the wierdest rumors about the Titanic turns out to be true. The original version of The Poseidon Adventure was being screened aboard when the ship struck the berg.

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 09:25 PM

Once again Leej, you're wrong. That's absurd....completely ridiculous!!! The fact is they were watching the sequel, Beyond the Poseidon Adventure. I don't mind you throwing these things in, but get the details right...........Now pass the Thousand Island dressing.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 09:44 PM

Fascinating folklore, regardless of it's accuracy or no.

My understanding of the events that led up to the catastrophe that was the sinking of the Titanic is that it was a series of events one on top of the other that led to the ultimate demise of the ship.

The ships designer wanted to make it under time to NYC, and pushed the bridge crew to faster speeds, even when it was not advisable. The rudder was too small for the size and mass of the ship. The ocean the night the ship hit the berg was like glass, and so there were no flashes of white water at the base of the berg (the only way to see one at night from a safe distance in those days). Additionally, it was foggy. The Captain was not on the bridge at the time the berg was sighted. The crew chose to try to steer away from it, but could not miss it altogether, as the rudder was not large enough to move the ship in time. The ship was designed with chambers (8 or 9?) front to back. These chambers (walled sections of the lower portions of the ship) were supposed to keep water from filling the entire ship, *but*, as the ship could not steer away from the icerberg completely, the berg scraped down the side, compromising too many of the chambers, making for too much water in the hull...Ironically, the ship would likely have *not* sunk had she hit the berg dead-on. The belief in her invincibility made for the lack of enough lifeboats...why waste the room on the beautiful decks of an unsinkable ship? The flares that they shot off were visible to another nearby ship, but the color was not the one then known for signaling help. The other ship thought she was sending off fireworks.

If not for any one of these factors, the ship (or at least, more of her passengers) may have survived.

The crew of Apollo 13 had much the same sort of happenstance. Many little things all added up to disaster, thankfully, one that did not involve their deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: Hrothgar
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 05:59 AM

Aw, Dead Horse, I wanted to use that line!

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: Gareth
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 02:35 PM

Tec Bit.

In the 70's as part of a teaching project the Universety at (or was it Polytechnic) at Southampton did a computer study of the Titanic collision.

Asuming that the collision had been 'head on' the results would have been as Celtic Soul states One or Two watertight compartments flooded, possibly some minor loss of life but the ship should have floated.

That being said, the Old Board of Trade responsible for ship standards was more into reducing the risk of sinking rather then ensuring all souls could find a place of safty.

By modern standards the Titanic was built to far higher standards in bulk heads, and bulkhead heights than modern ships ( with the possible exception of the T2 wartime build tankers =32 bulkheads)

No ship will float when you have lost your water tight integrity over 2/5th of your length all adjacent compartments. The fact that it took the Titanic well over 3 hours to sink says someting about those standards.

And if you want an explanation of the forces involved I make no appology for reposting this :=

The Titanic (marine engineer's version)

Oh, they built the ship Titanic to sail the ocean blue,
And they thought they built a ship that the water would not come through,
It was on her maiden trip that an iceberg hit the ship,
It was sad when the great ship went down.

Chorus (repeat after each stanza):

It was sad, oh, it was sad,
It was sad when the great ship went down (to the bottom of the...),
So let's all shed a tear for the White Star engineer,
It was sad when the great ship went down.

Oh, the impact caused stress fractures in Compartments 1 through 3,
And they all started flooding almost instantly,
The pressure differential was really quite substantial,
It was sad when the great ship went down.

Now as weight was slowly added to this remote location,
It resulted in a moment 'round the center of flotation,
That set the bow in motion slightly lower in the ocean,
It was sad when the great ship went down.

Thus the damaged piece of plating moved down a foot or two,
And the static head of pressure caused more water to come through,
Further weight out on that limb caused an increase in the trim,
It was sad when the great ship went down.

But the trimming calculations of this semi-flooded state,
Took an hour to do by hand, and by then it was too late,
It was like the sound of thunder when Bulkhead 3 went under,
It was sad when the great ship went down.

For above the Bulkhead Level, it was like an open door,
Which brought about the flooding of Compartment Number 4,
She was rising on her port as her time was growing short,
It was sad when the great ship went down.

Towards Compartment Number 5 came the madly rushing sea,
And the laws of Archimedes with respect to buoyancy,
Would not be violated, the whole damn ship was inundated,
It was sad when the great ship went down.

Now the force of gravitation had been balanced up to now,
By the transverse inclination of the slowly sinking bow,
But its good was now expended, equilibrium thus ended,
It was sad when the great ship went down.

Thus the liner finally vanished from the surface of the sea,
To a place where forces balance and where moments cannot be,
As the owners did repent, did the engineers lament,
It was sad when the great ship went down.

[Author unknown. Originated among college students in the USA, possibly in the 1950s or earlier. A few revisions made by Stephen L. Suffet with the assistance of Norma McCarthy for sake of historical and technological accuracy.]

Sorry I can't find the recent thread that had this for full credits.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 02:43 PM

Don't be silly Spaw. I'm talking about the original 1912 D W Griffith Poseidon Adventure. Now pass the Vegemite and the Vegemite antidote.

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 02:45 PM

I just like to say that one of my father's cousins was on the Titanic and survied.

They setteled in California.

At first I thought that can't be right, however I asked my dad and tells me that was true, He remebers someone in the family talking about their cousin on the Titanic.

Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 04:29 AM

Gareth: great/accurate song, does it have its own tune, or is it to a 'standard' ?
Reminds me of the opening lines from W S Gilbert's "Etiquette"
The Ballyshannon foundered off the coast of Cariboo,
And down in fathoms many went the Captain and the crew.
Down went the owners-greedy men whom hope of gain allured,
Oh, dry the starting tear, for they were heavily insured.

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 05:12 AM

Nigel judging by your quizzes you know evrythingabout everything, so I'm really surprised you dont know the tune to the original song...it's sung amazingly often in all folk/nautical circles. there's a fine woody guthrie/leadbelly/sonny terry recording (dream team eh?). And it is a special favourite of the Boat Band.

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 05:19 AM

Greg: thanks for the few kind words, but often my knowledge covers breadth rather than depth (Jack of all trades.. etc..)

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 06:48 AM

Leej are you absolutely sure of that? I still think it was a sequel. Could it have been D.W.'s Battleship Poseidon?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Remembering the Titanic
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 06:53 AM

All this mention of Poseidon is confusing me. On this forum surely we should only refer to Neptune