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Titanic and Olympic

DigiTrad:
BALLAD OF JOHN WILLIAMS
DOWN WITH THE OLD CANOE
GOD MOVES OVER THE WATER
HAVE YOU GOT ANY NEWS OF THE ICEBERG?
SINKING OF THE TITANIC
THE TITANIC (COLD AND ICY SEA)
THE TITANIC (GONE TO REST)
THE TITANIC (HUSBANDS AND WIVES)
THE TITANIC 6
TITANIC (7)
TITANIC (RISE NO MORE)


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swirlygirl 16 Jan 02 - 04:40 PM
GUEST,Mad4Mud at work but obviously not too busy 16 Jan 02 - 04:51 PM
Les from Hull 16 Jan 02 - 05:02 PM
GUEST 16 Jan 02 - 05:17 PM
M.Ted 16 Jan 02 - 05:20 PM
Murray MacLeod 16 Jan 02 - 05:25 PM
GUEST,Mad4Mud at work 16 Jan 02 - 06:01 PM
catspaw49 16 Jan 02 - 07:05 PM
Hrothgar 17 Jan 02 - 05:39 AM
GUEST,swirlygirl 17 Jan 02 - 07:50 AM
GUEST,swirlygirl 17 Jan 02 - 07:52 AM
Murray MacLeod 17 Jan 02 - 08:03 AM
GUEST,swirlygirl 17 Jan 02 - 08:06 AM
GUEST,swirlygirl 17 Jan 02 - 08:08 AM
GUEST,swirlygirl 17 Jan 02 - 08:10 AM
catspaw49 17 Jan 02 - 08:37 AM
catspaw49 17 Jan 02 - 08:43 AM
GUEST,swirlygirl 17 Jan 02 - 08:45 AM
GUEST,swirlygirl 17 Jan 02 - 08:47 AM
GUEST,swirlygirl 17 Jan 02 - 08:50 AM
DonMeixner 17 Jan 02 - 09:47 AM
Blackcatter 17 Jan 02 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,MeganL 17 Jan 02 - 03:59 PM
Kenny B (inactive) 17 Jan 02 - 05:31 PM
Murray MacLeod 17 Jan 02 - 05:45 PM
swirlygirl 17 Jan 02 - 05:49 PM
The Walrus at work 18 Jan 02 - 08:34 AM
GUEST,swirlygirl 18 Jan 02 - 09:02 AM
Les from Hull 18 Jan 02 - 10:09 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 18 Jan 02 - 04:45 PM
Gareth 18 Jan 02 - 05:55 PM
Murray MacLeod 18 Jan 02 - 06:12 PM
Little Hawk 18 Jan 02 - 06:24 PM
catspaw49 19 Jan 02 - 08:53 AM
swirlygirl 19 Jan 02 - 09:39 AM
Gareth 19 Jan 02 - 10:58 AM
Gareth 19 Jan 02 - 02:56 PM
Les from Hull 20 Jan 02 - 09:07 AM
Dead Horse 20 Jan 02 - 04:02 PM
swirlygirl 20 Jan 02 - 04:36 PM
Gareth 20 Jan 02 - 06:23 PM
Snuffy 20 Jan 02 - 06:25 PM
vectis 20 Jan 02 - 08:33 PM
Gareth 21 Jan 02 - 02:34 PM
swirlygirl 21 Jan 02 - 02:44 PM
Gareth 21 Jan 02 - 06:40 PM
catspaw49 21 Jan 02 - 06:48 PM
Kenny B (inactive) 26 Jan 02 - 08:35 AM
Gareth 17 Dec 02 - 04:51 PM
Roger the Skiffler 18 Dec 02 - 04:03 AM
GUEST,Little Robyn 18 Dec 02 - 06:49 PM
Hrothgar 19 Dec 02 - 03:48 AM
Gareth 19 Dec 02 - 07:28 AM
Bev and Jerry 19 Dec 02 - 11:02 PM
Hrothgar 20 Dec 02 - 12:57 AM
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Subject: Titanic and Olympic
From: swirlygirl
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 04:40 PM

Does anyone know anymore on the new conspiracy theory going round that it wasn't the Titanic that sunk but the Olympic?

Feel like I should know more as i work with the Cunard archives but I can't know everything can I?

:)

xxx


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: GUEST,Mad4Mud at work but obviously not too busy
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 04:51 PM

Got the following from a site:
Olympic's maiden voyage was a complete success. She had flawlessly crossed the Atlantic at an average of 21.7 knots. The ship's next few voyages were just as good. But disaster struck at the beginning of the fifth crossing. It was just after noon on the twentieth of September, 1911, when Olympic left Southampton and proceeded down the Spithead Channel, the water between the British mainland and the Isle of Wight, on her way to the English Channel and Cherbourg, France to pick up her next load of passengers. Suddenly, the Edgar-class cruiser, HMS Hawke, of the British Royal Navy, was seen in the fog. The war ship began to get sucked in to the Olympic by her huge propellers. Collision was unavoidable and the Hawke rammed into Olympic's starboard side. The Hawke nearly capsized before she broke away. In the end, Olympic was left with a triangle shaped gash in her side and a damaged propeller. The Hawke was left with a badly damaged bow. Luckily, no one was killed. Both ships limped to the nearest port.


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Les from Hull
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 05:02 PM

I saw a book about it some time ago. It's not such a new theory. I think the idea was that the Titanic wouldn't be ready, so they changed the name of Olympic, or something. Frankly, I doubt it.


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 05:17 PM

I believe the History Channel has a pretty detailed look at all three ships (the Britannic being the third). The Britannic struck a mine in the Mediterranean Sea during WWI (ca 1916, I think), and sank in an hour. But due to lessons learned on the Titanic, only 2 dozen or so lost their lives, and all of those due to the explosion, not the sinking. The Olympic survived to eventually be sold as scrap - many of the extremely elaborate fixtures ended up in fancy hotels in Europe.

On the alleged name change, considering there were literally thousands of men working on these ships day and night for months on end, pulling a name change would have been quite the trick, eh? Just another urban legend....


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 05:20 PM

Here is a bit about the third ship in the group--

From http://www.snopes2.com/titanic/gigantic.htm:

Claim: The sister ship to the Olympic and Titanic was originally intended to be named the Gigantic.

Status: True.

Origins: The Titanic was originally conceived by the White Star Company as one of a triumvirate of ships intended to vie with Cunard for the trans-Atlantic passenger service business. White Star couldn't hope to offer ships as fast as Cunard's liners, so they planned to compete by building liners that were both bigger (and hence able to carry more paying passengers and cargo) and more luxurious than Cunard's. Moreover, since an Atlantic crossing typically took five days in the new class of steamships operated by Cunard and White Star in the first decade of the 20th century, creating a trio of similar ships would allow White Star to offer trans-Atlantic service in both directions on a regular weekly schedule.

The planned ships were so large that the shipbuilders, Harland and Wolff, had to allocate space normally used for building three hulls to handle just two of the new behemoths. Harland and Wolff planned to construct the liners on a staggered schedule so that White Star would have one ready to go into service each spring between 1911 and 1913, and initially everything went according to plan. The keel of the first ship, the Olympic, was laid in December 1908, and the Titanic followed suit three months later. The Olympic was launched in October 1910, and the Titanic in May 1911. The Olympic's maiden voyage took place in June 1911, and the Titanic's in April 1912. And then . . .

After the Titanic disaster, the feverish public interest in these massive ocean liners abated, and the third ship of the planned triumvirate, the Britannic, was finally launched (after extensive modifications and with considerably less fanfare than her sisters) in April 1914. Like her sister ship Titanic, she wasn't around long, though: World War I broke out before the Britannic ever went into passenger service; she was requisitioned by the Royal Navy and pressed into service as a hospital ship; and she struck a mine and sank off the coast of Greece in October 1916.

The magnitude of the Titanic disaster and World War I both overshadowed the short life of the Britannic, and she was gone before many people were even aware she had been built. Over the years a rumor began to circulate that the Britannic's original name had been the Gigantic, but White Star had thought better of it and quietly changed their minds after the Titanic sank. White Star maintained that this was not true; they had planned to name the ship Britannic all along and had never considered the name Gigantic.

From a purely logical point of view, Gigantic seems the more likely choice. The names Olympic, Titanic, and Gigantic all evoke a sense of size and strength that Britannic simply does not. And White Star had considered naming a ship Gigantic on at least one other occasion, as demonstrated by this article from the 17 September 1892 New York Times:

London, Sept. 16 -- The White Star Company has commissioned the great Belfast shipbuilders Harland and Wolff to build an Atlantic steamer that will beat the record in size and speed.

She has already been named the Gigantic, and will be 700 feet long, 65 feet 7-1/2 inches beam and 4,500 horsepower. It is calculated that she will steam 22 knots an hour, with a maximum speed of 27 knots. She will have three screws, two fitted like Majestic's, and the third in the centre. She is to be ready for sea in March, 1894.

We have more than logic and supposition to go by here, however. Contemporary references publications such as The New York Times, Scientific American, and Lloyd's List and Shipping Gazette as well as a promotional flyer from White Star itself all indicate that White Star did indeed originally have the name Gigantic in mind, but one could hardly blame them for altering their plans. After the sinking of the Titanic, passengers were suddenly less concerned with size and luxury than they were with getting to their destinations alive, and the dignified name Britannic conveyed a sense of safety and reliability in a way the attention-grabbing Gigantic could not.


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 05:25 PM

This reminds me of the "Did We Really Land on the Moon? "thread that some idiot started once upon a time.

(Not that I am implying that swirly is an idiot, far from it.) She is, however, a woman in love, and that can do strange things to ones powers of reason ..........:-)

Murray


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: GUEST,Mad4Mud at work
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 06:01 PM

Here's the link to a funny, short re-write of the movie "Titanic". Click on me!


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 07:05 PM

I just love this kinda' crap. Who thinks this shit up anyway? BTW, have you heard that the World Trade Center was not struck and demolished on 9/11? Seems it's one of David Copperfield's illusions........................

........gimmee peace..............

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Hrothgar
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 05:39 AM

Doesn't matter which boat it was, 1500 plus poor buggers were on the wrong one....


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: GUEST,swirlygirl
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 07:50 AM

How do you know I'm in love Murray??!!

The only reason I asked is cos there was a book came into work the other day and now it seems to have disappeared and I can't find out anymore about it...

seems a bit of a disgrace to work on Cunard archives and not know all this trivia...

:)

xxx


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: GUEST,swirlygirl
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 07:52 AM

...well qualified Murray...well qualified...

you'd be amazed how much damage a woman swirlin' at 100mph can do to a body...

And anyway...EJ will vouch for me...definitely not an idiot...

go on...ask me an archivey question...(!)

:)

xxx


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 08:03 AM

OK swirly. I have always wondered how much a first-class ticket on the Titanic cost. And how much was the cheapest ticket?

Murray


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: GUEST,swirlygirl
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 08:06 AM

I will have to consult my archive, since that's my job!!

Gies a mo!!

:)

xxx

P.S. I don't seem to be able to log in from work...I keep appearing as a guest which is making me feel like a bit of an outsider (sniff...sniff...)


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: GUEST,swirlygirl
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 08:08 AM

And you have to remember that Titanic is a White Star ship and most of the records were destroyed by Cunard when the companies merged...

...but I'll do my best...

:)

xxx


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: GUEST,swirlygirl
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 08:10 AM

First Class (parlor suite): £870/$4,350 ($50,000 today)

First Class (berth): £30/$150 ($1724 today)

Second Class: £12/$60 ($690 today)

Third Class: £3 to £8/$40 ($172 to $460 today)

We have some handy reference books here...no need to trawl through wads of papars!!

Need to find it in pounds though...


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 08:37 AM

Okay, Cunard questions....Rostron was awarded a medal of some sort but what ever happened to him afterwards? And did the Carpathia eventually just go to the scrap yards or did she have other historical adventures?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 08:43 AM

Skip it.....Just found the answer on the net....Carpathia torpedoed 120 miles off Fastnet

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: GUEST,swirlygirl
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 08:45 AM

Ok, the Carpathia first:

after picking up survivors from the Titanic, it apparently returned to its usual service until outbreak of WWI.

5th September 1914 the Carpathia incurred the wrath of the Italian government for failing to obtain an emigrant licence, which was require dto carry their nationals, and was subsequently fined. It then continued commercial service throughout the war, first operating from the Piraeus in Greece and then in 1915, being transferred to the NY and Boston run from Liverpool.

17th July 1918 it was travelling in convoy, bound for Boston, when it was struck by two torpedoes some 120 miles west of Fastnet. A 3rd torpedo hit the ship as the lifeboats were being manned. Five of the crew were killed by the explosions. The remainder of the crew and the 57 passengers on board were picked up by the HMS Snowdrop and safely brought to Liverpool. The Carparthia sank at 12.40am that day

I'll work on Rostron in a bit, but that's the official Cunard potted history...

:)

xxx


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: GUEST,swirlygirl
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 08:47 AM

a fraction too late!

I'll see what I can dig up on Rostron but there's probably very little...

may take me a while though cos I've got other stuff to be going on with...

:)

xxx


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: GUEST,swirlygirl
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 08:50 AM

We only have three things on Rostron and I'm not sure what they are cos one of them is entitled "miscellaneous"!!

The other two are two pictures of him...

Did say that Cunard destroyed most of the White Star stuff...they did destroy a lot of their own stuff along with it, true, so at least they were indiscriminate!

:)

xxx


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: DonMeixner
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 09:47 AM

When the Britannic struck a mine and sank off of Greece in WWI she was a hospital ship. She sank very slowly by the bow and most everyone escaped with few injuries or loss of life. Saddly of those who did die about thirty where in life boats that were dragged through the exposed propellers as she sank. She lies nearly undisturbed and upright at the bottom. Cousteau and Co. did a TV special on her some years ago.

Don


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Blackcatter
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 12:18 PM

Greetings all,

Another interesting thing: There was one lady who survived a voyage on all three ships (surviving the sinking of the Titanic and Britanic and a minor colission on the Olympic). Here's the link (from the PBS show Nova) and the part that describes her:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2402titanic.html

NARRATOR: One near casualty of the propeller incident was nurse Violet Jessop. Her story is remarkable as one of the few known to survive passage on all three White Star sisters.

JOHN MAXTONE-GRAHAM: Violet Jessop, whom I had interviewed for a book, told me that she was not only on the Titanic when it went down, she was also on the Olympic when it had not a very serious accident, but there was a collision in Southampton water. Then, the hat trick that she was also on the Britannic as a nurse's aid is extraordinary. Violet told me that she got into a lifeboat, which was lowered down, and when it reached the water and was cast loose from the blocks, the descending blocks, she suddenly saw everybody jumping out. So, Violet jumped over the side and thought she was going to sink forever, and finally came up and hit the bottom of the lifeboat. Her head hit it as she came up. Then she groped around in the dark, thinking her end was nigh, and found a hand, a man's hand, which she could tell was alive, and they held hands together and came up to the surface.

_____________________________

Once again proves that truth is more incredible than fiction.


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: GUEST,MeganL
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 03:59 PM

Will have to reset my cookie. There are acouple of interesting books on the conspiracy theory, can't remember the titles just now but I got them recently from my local library so they shouldnt be to hard to find.

I bought a book for hubby called "The other Titanic" about the Oceanic, think it claimed she was a sister, she sunk of Shetland when manned by a civilian and RN crew, gues it came under the old heading SNAFU (situation normal all fouled up)


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 05:31 PM

Cunard! I had an old uncle who used to cycle ever day to work at John Brown's shipyard in Clydebank where they built the Cunard liners, Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth.
He cycled to work every day and when he got to the yard he had to get off his bike and take it through the small gate for workmen at the side of the big double gates in the Glasgow Rd
On the day the Queen Mary was launched he arrived just in time to see the gates being opened to allow a Rolls Royce to pass through.
He tried to follow the Roller through the gates but the gatekeeper wouldn't let him saying "This gentleman works for Cunard" to which my uncle replied "Its just not fair I work f'Cunard too but you don't open the gates for me"

Hi Swirly, how hard do you work to be able to answer all these questions. : > ) >> Have a nice Day Kenny B


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 05:45 PM

Nice one, Kenny B !!!

I am quite sure that swirly works f'Cunard too .....

Murray


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: swirlygirl
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 05:49 PM

Not that hard...you'd be surprised...

It's not too difficult to find out info when you've got a good reference collection, good indexing, search aids and a WHOLE archive of stuff!!!

As long as it's interesting I'll give it a go...

:)

xxx


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 08:34 AM

Swirlygirl,

I seem to rememmber reading (somewhere) that, before the Great War, a number of Liners (presumably including Cunard and White Star ships) were given Government subsidies during building, on the condition that the major ship's officers (Captain, Navigator, Chief Engineer etc.) were RN reservists/volunteer reservists and that the ships would be taken into RN service in the event of war.
Can you confirm or deny any of this please?

Walrus


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: GUEST,swirlygirl
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 09:02 AM

Well I do know they were given subsidies in case they were required for war use, but I don't know about the reserve issue...

I'll look into it...

:)

xxx


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Les from Hull
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 10:09 AM

The larger faster liners of the great(er) nations were often provided with government subsidies so they could be used as Armed Merchant Cruisers in time of war. So they were built with strengthened parts where 6 inch guns could be quickly added. This happened in both the first and second world wars. In the second war the vulnerability of these ships was soon made clear and they were then used as troopships and for other purposes.

The American liner 'United States' was built with a large subsidy towards the end of WW2 so that it could be used as a very fast troopship.

I haven't worked very hard at all to provide this information!

Les


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Subject: Lyr Add: UNCLE WULLIE
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 04:45 PM

I know that you ALL work hard. You'll be rewarded some day as Uncle Wullie was, in fact better I hope. If a translation is required, private PM sessions are free. Please excuse the double post.
:>}

UNCLE WULLIE
Tune loosely where it fits = Die Tannenbaum

In the years when times were hard,
Uncle Wullie worked doon at John Brown's yard,
And every morn at six, no less,
He'd rise from sleepin in the kitchen recess,
Cleared the black lead grate an' lit the fire.
To shave and wash he did aspire,
And Monday tae Saturday, if ye please,
He pit oan his boots an his dungarees.

He would shout oot "Jeannie, get up, yer late"
And eat his porridge fae a wally plate,
Slurp his tea fae a coronation mug,
Feed the cat and walk the dug,
Then he'd make up his workin' piece,
Wi a square slice sausage an a daud o' cheese,
And if that wisnae quite enough,
At his pipe he'd have a 5-minute puff.

He'd pit oan his jaicket, then he'd staun
For a kiss fae Jeannie 'fore he was gone,
An staunin there, parted fae her lips,
He'd pit his haun in his pocket for his bicycle clips.
He pedalled solid as a rock,
Keepin wan eye oan Singer's clock.
He was always oan time an never late,
As he goat intae Broons by the "men's" wee gate.

The day o' the Mary's launch came roon.
The king himsel' wid be there soon.
As Wullie arrived at the men's wee gate,
A Rolls Royce arrived for the launchin' fete.
Gateman doffed his cap as he opened wide
The big slidin' gate tae let it inside.
Wullie tried tae follow the Roller thro'
But the gateman shouted "Hey there, you!

"Ye cannae dae that wi ye bike.
Tae the men's wee gate, son, take a hike."
Wullie took it personally
And with the gateman he argued free:
"How's this man gettin thro'," he cried,
"While I am tae go roon tae the workmen's side?"
"He works for Cunard," the gateman hums.
"He can enter by the big gate when he comes."

Wullie preened himself with a wicked grin,
"I work f'Cunard too, so let me in."
The gateman, struck dumb by Wullie's cheek,
Let him thro the big gate every week.
So just one thing afore I go
Tae ma ain fireside a' aglow:
If you work f'Cunard just let them know,
Don't let the gaffers steal the show.


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Gareth
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 05:55 PM

Armed Merchant Cruisers Click Here on HMS Jervis Bay

or Click here on HMS Rawalpindi

Lest we forget.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 06:12 PM

EXCELLENT stuff, Kenny !

Struck me when I was reading it, however, that "The Old Orange Flute" would fit better than "Oh Tannenbaum". Still a bit loose-fitting, but it would work well, IMHO.

Murray


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 06:24 PM

Ah, yes, those great conspiracy theories...

It wasn't the Hindenburg Zeppelin that blew up either, it was the Limberger Zeppelin. They changed the name to Hindenburg later, because it sounds much more important.

Also, Custer did NOT die at Little Big Horn! He died a hopeless drunk in a San Francisco flophouse, 13 years later. He wasn't even at Little Big Horn, because he was on an extended spree at the time, and utterly incapable of command.

Furthermore, the Gulf War did not take place in Iraq, it was filmed on a Hollywood sound stage, and in the New Mexico desert. The Iraquis were portrayed mostly by Mexican extras. I suspect the supposed war in Afghanistan will turn out to be something quite similar.

And the famed "Orillia crop circles" were actually made by highly intelligent woodchucks, not aliens or local teenagers...

Amazing isn't it? :-)

- LH


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 08:53 AM

No conspiracy, but I think the only real controversial and basically unsolvable issue surrounding the Titanic is the action or inaction of Lord and the Californian. Lots of testimony with various stories and then a ton of theories as to exactly where the Californian was that night and what was actually seen or not seen, done or not done, by those aboard her. Even those who thought they saw Titanic have different stories as to angles and times and what was actually communicated to Lord and what his actual response was.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: swirlygirl
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 09:39 AM

Well you might not have worked very hard Les but you didn't answer the full question did you?

We know the government subsidised the building, but what about the clause that the staff were RN reserves?

Will check again this week but couldn't find anything that we have anyway...you guys must remember that a lot of the Cunard archive was destroyed so even though it's large it was originally MUCH larger, so it might be amongst the lost info...

...but I'll check...

:)

xxx


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 10:58 AM

May be a little confusion here.

British Maritime Ensigns

The Red Ensign Slang "The Red Duster (Red Flag with the Union Flag in the upper home quarter) - shall be flown by a Registered British Vessel when leaving or Entering Port

The Blue Ensign ( Mid blue with the Union Flag in the upper home quarter) - Worn instead of the Red Ensign by Naval Auxillary Vessels ( Supply ships etc )

British Registered Ships where a substantial proportion of the officers are Members of the Royal Navy reserve may apply for a Warrant to fly the Blue Ensign instead of the Red Ensign.

(This may be the source of the confusion )

The White Ensign (A White field quartered by a Red Cross of St George with the Union Flag in the Top Home Quarter.) Only to be flown by Her Majesties Vessels of War whilst in commision, between Sun Rise and Sun Set.

Very Large White Ensigns (Battle Flags) are traditionally flown when battle or action appears immenant.

There are exceptions to the rule. The Museam Ship HMS Belfast has royal permission to fly the White Ensign. Various Yacht Clubs have the privaledge, (with warrent) to fly a blue ensign, defaced with the badge of the Yacht Club. Trinity House Vessels fly a varient ensign, as to vessels of the Royal Airforce.

I suspect the confusion may be down to White Star Vessels having warrents to fly the Blue Ensign. I also suspect that these vessels were regulally inspected by the Admiralty as a means of keeping the Contingency List of Vessels for requisition up to date.

After the losses of the "Jervis Bay" and "Rawalpindi" in action most Armed Merchant Cruisers reverted to the role of Fast Troopships.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 02:56 PM

Browsing the WEB I found this site on the Brittanic

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Les from Hull
Date: 20 Jan 02 - 09:07 AM

Sorry Swirly.

The Royal Naval Reserve and Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve were the two organisations involved. RNR officers were often merchant navy officers or retired RN officers who would be called up in case of war. RNVR were more often amateur yachtsman and boat enthusiasts. I think that it was entirely up to individuals to volunteer for these services, but I'm sure that the liner companies would encourage their employees to 'join up'. But that's more opinion than fact, perhaps someone else has so real information.


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Dead Horse
Date: 20 Jan 02 - 04:02 PM

The real burning question is "What happened to the iceberg"?


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: swirlygirl
Date: 20 Jan 02 - 04:36 PM

Became a well known variety of lettuce, so named to commemorate the sad event... and each one contains a real piece of the Titanic iceberg water...

:0)

xxx


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Gareth
Date: 20 Jan 02 - 06:23 PM

Les - There was an obligation on both Seamen and officers to remain part of the RNR after leaving the Navy.

Proffesional Seamen could join the RNR direct and I think it was true that the major shipping lines encouraged thier officers to join.

You are correct to say that RNVR were the weekend sailors - With no previous history in the Navy.

With the privaledge of a merchant ship, of flying the Blue Ensign (See a previous post) this could well explain the thought that the big White Star Liners were naval auxilaries.

The "Jervis Bay" & "Rawlapindi" sank flying the White Ensign - Not the Blue.


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Snuffy
Date: 20 Jan 02 - 06:25 PM

HAVE YOU GOT ANY NEWS OF THE ICEBERG? by Les Barker was posted by Sophocleese 13-Feb-00 - 08:27 PM on this thread.

WassaiL! V


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: vectis
Date: 20 Jan 02 - 08:33 PM

Didn't all the White Star line ships' names end with "ic"?
The Laurentic and Oceanic were two, I think.


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Gareth
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 02:34 PM

Yes it was a traditian at White Star, after the merger of White Star and Cunard White Star, or White Star ordered ships, continued the "ic" tradition. The last, whose name escapes me, untill I get to the Libuary, went in the late 50's.

Cunard ships traditionally ended in "ia". Hence Mauritania, Lusitania etc.

There is an apocraphal story about the "Queen Mary" the first ship to break that tradition.

The intentian was to name her "Victoria", and as etiquete demands, Royal permission was sought.

Now as this was Cunard it was not a question of sending a humble petition into Buck House.

The Chairman of Cunard sought an interview with King George VI

"Your Majesty",said the Chairman, "We would like your permission to name our new liner after Englands greatest Queen".

"Certainly" said King George, "My mother will be delighted."

And thus the "Queen Mary" was named.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: swirlygirl
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 02:44 PM

Very good! Will have to spread that story in work...maybe add it to our info sheets...

:)

xxx


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Gareth
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 06:40 PM

Who needs the Libuary The Last White Star Liner Was the "Brittanic" scrapped 1960.

at the bottom of this page

Reading through this site there is confirmation that liners were built for ease of conversion to "Armed Merchant Cruisers" and I have no doubt a subsidy was involved.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 06:48 PM

The WINNER!!!!

Well, if the Titanic lost, it certainly won.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 08:35 AM

MIDI White Star Line Titanic Songbook Click here On site Called Melody Lane Great vintage songs from the Titanic era and the Titanic's White Star Line Official Music Repertoire, including popular old-time English Music Hall numbers that are impossible to find on the WWW


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Gareth
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 04:51 PM

Reopen. I recently obtained a copy of Gardiner & Van Der Vat 's "The Riddle of the Titanic" Weidenfeld & Nicholson 1995 ISBN 0 75280 167 8.

Various "myths" are examined, Iincluding the "Titanic/Olympic" swop. evidence examined and taken as myth. This evidence includs photos taken of the "Titanic" as she now lies, showing the builders job number on components of the "Titanic"

Interestingly, and I did not know this previously, the White Star line was American owned, the ultimate shareholders being J P Morgan Trust.

The Cunard liners were built with a subsidy to Admiralty specifications as potential Armed Merchant Cruisers. This specification included longtitudanal and horisontal water tight bulkheads. Thus there would have been no topping over of the vertical bulkheads as happend to the "Titanic"

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 04:03 AM

Coincidence corner: I was looking for the words to Les Barker's "Iceberg" song and search in Forum & DT came up cold, then this thread led me to the posting, saved me transcribing it from CD!
I can do it as a spoken monologue with "audience" doing the chorus to minimise the risk of me singing, if we have a Xmas sing-song!
RtS


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: GUEST,Little Robyn
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 06:49 PM

So what was the relationship between the White Star Line and the Shaw Saville & Albion Company in London?
My Grandmother came out to New Zealand with her family in July 1900 on the Gothic (I still have the original boat ticket) and the cost was sixty three pounds for 2 adults, 4 children and a baby.
According to Henry Brett - White Wings pub 1924, other 'ic' ships owned by the company included Doric, Ionic, Coptic and Corinthic.
The Gothic, at 7,755 tons, was quite a large ship compared with others that brought settlers to New Zealand, but very small compared with Titanic and Olympic.


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Hrothgar
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 03:48 AM

The White Star boats were named by classicists - Titanic, Olympic, etc, while the Shaw Savill boats were all named after tribes - I can remember Coptic, Aramaic, Illyric, Ionic etc from my shipping days (before a lot of the old shipping companies were consolidated after the introduction of containers).

That was a shame - somehow Associated Container Transportation just doesn't have the flavour of Ellerman and Bucknall, Shaw, Savill and Albion, Blue Funnel Line, and the rest.


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 07:28 AM

Hmmm ! for History of UK Shipping lines - you could do worse than CLICK 'ERE

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 11:02 PM

Nice site, Gareth.

Bev and Jerry


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Subject: RE: Titanic and Olympic
From: Hrothgar
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 12:57 AM

Onya, Gareth.


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