BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness

Subject: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 08:54 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7843154.stm
According to this research, fewer British men survived than would be expected.
This is explained by the British ethic of orderly queing,and of letting women and children go first.
Americans were said to have a more individualistic (selfish?) attitude.
I would add more, but I don't want to be pushy.
After you old chap.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:23 AM

Sounds like good material for a Monty Python skit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:37 AM

Given the dearth of lifeboats, I'm pretty sure that there were few adult males survivors of any nationality, and that those women and children who went down with the ship would have been mostly third-class ("steerage") passengers, and maybe some from second-class as well.

Economic/social class undoubtedly had as much to to with the demographics of survival as did nationality.

I wonder about the degree to which nationality and class had to do with the researchers' presuppositions regarding their "expectations" of who and how many British men woulda/coulda/shoulda survived. The conclusions of any study are, of course, largely predetermined by the assumptions made at its outset.

I can see that, within the group of male first-class passengers, significantly greater numbers of the British men might have maintained a stiff-upper-lip noblesse-oblige attitude than their American first-class counterparts, who would probably have included a contingent of nouveau-riche robber-baron types, a demographic group not notable for selflessness.

(Sorry about all the French, when we're discussing an almost entirely English-speaking group...;^)

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:37 AM

That'll go down well !!

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:38 AM

We Brits were very polite, once upon a Titanic...

But..weren't those musicians the politest of all, playing their music to the end, to keep people as calm as they could?

The Dance Band On TheTitanic - Harry Chapin

And for those without Youtube:

Harry Chapin's lyrics:

Dance band on the Titanic
Sing "Nearer, my God, to Thee"
The iceberg's on the starboard bow
Won't you dance with me

Mama stood cryin' at the dockside
Sayin' "Please son, don't take this trip"
I said "Mama, sweet Mama, don't you worry none"
"Even God couldn't sink this ship"

Well, the whistle blew and they turned the screws
It turned the water into foam
Destination sweet salvation
Goodbye home sweet home

I'm in the dance band on the Titanic
Sing "Nearer, my God, to Thee"
The iceberg's on the starboard bow
Won't you dance with me

There was a trombone and a saxophone
The bass and drums were cookin' up the bandstand
And I was strummin' in the middle with this dude on the fiddle
And we were three days out from land

And now the foghorn's jammed and moanin'
Hear it groanin' through the misty night
I heard the lookout shout down "There's icebergs around"
"But still everything's all right"

Oh, the dance band on the Titanic
Sing "Nearer, my God, to Thee"
The iceberg's on the starboard bow
Won't you dance with me

They were burnin' all the flares for candles
In the banquet they were throwin' in first class
And we were blowin' waltzes in the barroom
When the universe went CRASH!

"There's no way that this could happen"
I could hear the old captain curse
He ordered lifeboats away, that's when I heard the chaplain say
"Women and children and chaplains first"

Well, they soon used up all of the lifeboats
But there were a lot of us left on board
I heard the drummer sayin' "Boys, just keep playin'"
"Now we're doin' this gig for the Lord"

I heard the dance band on the Titanic
Sing "Nearer, my God, to Thee"
The iceberg's on the starboard bow
Won't you dance with me

There's a wild-eyed boy in the radio shack
He's the last remaining guest
He was tappin' in a Morse code frenzy
Tappin' "Please God, S.O.S."

Jesus Christ can walk on the water
But a music man will drown
They say that Nero fiddled while Rome burned up
Well, I was strummin' as the ship go down

I'm in the dance band on the Titanic
Sing "Nearer, my God, to Thee"
The iceberg's on the starboard bow
Won't you dance with me

Dance band on the Titanic
Sing "Nearer, my God, to Thee"
The iceberg's on the starboard bow
Won't you dance with me

Dance band on the Titanic
Sing "Nearer, my God, to Thee"
The iceberg's on the starboard bow
Won't you dance with me"

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:38 AM

So the Brits basically did as they were told and gave up because that is what was expected of them? I also understand that a number of lifeboats were launched without anyone in them or half full?   

Were the Americans "selfish" or "practical"??

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:48 AM

The origins of the tradition "Women and children first" was the loss of the Troopship Birkenhead in February 1852 off the coast of South Africa. There being insufficient lifeboats to accommodate all, some boats having been destroyed when the ship struck the rocks, the senior officer Lt-Col Seton ordered that the women and children be placed into the boats with a handling crew of seamen, while the contingent of soldiers onboard were ordered into ranks on deck as the ship sank.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:58 AM

Sounds like a bit of mythology to me, but then again, it is true that British people apologise when you tread on their toes...

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:06 AM

I just love a thread that starts speculating when the actual records are out there to determine if there is any truth to the first entry.

It's 8 in the morning, and we might already be talkin'g bullsh&*!


Having writted that, as Bluebottle would say, above, I THEN went to the article to see if I had, once again, outwritten the title, and this time, I hadn't. The article either does the researcher a disservice by not backing up his study with any kind of explanation, or the researcher did that when interviewed. We get the judgment, but not the study, the facts, the methodology.

There are the stories that most of us know where several important folks declined to board lifeboats despite being offered. Some of those folks were most definitely American. There's a couple stories out there of males who donned female attire.

I believe the ship's complement of seamen were under-represented as well, and possibly most of them were English.

I think the news article itself might be a kind of 'troll' an attempt to generate conversation and contretemps out of little or nothing.

I am not in the least English, but I got a chance to visit London in another era, and I learned from everyone I saw there. From an Arab in a turban I learned to blow my nose on the street without benefit of tissue, from almost being run over by a taxi I learned that I have a sixth sense, from Marble Arch I learned that debate is messy, fun, and THERE IS NO LIMIT to what humans may believe, and from the plain people of England I lerned that queueing is a phenomenon that allows the average citizen to establish for him/ herself a sense of order, of the imposition of regularity over chaos. I found it unusual, almost incomprehensible, and wholly admirable. In Russia a year later I learned that if you want to get into a bus, just suppress your American sense of space, join the clot, and it will suck you inside, sort of a mechanical demonstration of the philosophical principle that when you look into the Abyss, the Abyss looks back. (The Abyss also has halitosis and puts fingers down your pockets).

I remember how in school we were kind of led to believe that the Victorians (Americans included) were bound by narrow minds, tight pockets, inadequate sanitation, and fear of the unknown future. Having left school and gotten an education, I know that is pretty much the reverse of the truth.

The sinking of the Titanic was a tragedy, and we have recast its symbolism with every new movie. But I will need a lot more convincing that the English need to change their time honoured habits as a result of this 'study'.

As Michael Flanders so acutely put it:

"The English, the English, the English are BEST,
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:07 AM

I think Poppgagators description is probably the most accurate. If you check the statistics of the passenger list, there was a much higher percentage of first class surviors than the rest - and there was a higher percentage of Americans sailing first class.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Midchuck
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:09 AM

As Robert Heinlein pointed out, "Women and Children First" isn't JUST being nice, it's basic species survival. Same reason you use men and not women as line combat troops, even though since guns came into use, size and strength are not as significant for combat.

If a tribe loses most of its children, and its women of childbearing age, the tribe will probably die out, unless the men can steal more women. If the tribe loses most of its men, but the women and girls are largely ok, the tribe as a whole can survive if the few remaining men and older boys are willing to work really hard to make it survive, if you catch my drift. I think that logic still operates at some level, even though our society functions at above a tribal level, part of the time at least.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Arnie
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:31 AM

Apologies for the thread-drift (yes, that marks me out as British!)but robomatic's bit about 'The Victorians (Americans included) etc.' got me thinking. Were the Americans also Victorians? As Victoria was the queen of Britain, and not America, would you not describe yourselves after the president of the day, or some such? Just a thought.....

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:36 AM

Ah yes, those were the days, when the British had good manners.
¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:45 AM

"but then again, it is true that British people apologise when you tread on their toes"

Whereas Americans never apologise for anything?

JUST PULLING YER LEGS GUYS!! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:47 AM

Arnie:

I think it's referred to as the Victorian age or era, and I think the US took many if not most (all?) of its social cues out of a common sense of common cultural origin. Gilbert & Sullivan and Dickens were constantly being pirated, the Robber Barons of industry were busy getting their daughters married into English aristocracy, the works of Kipling, Robert Louis Stevenson, Shakespeare, and many others were being devoured over here. there has indeed been a special relationship across the Atlantic that has marked, and continues to mark both of us. I think we've been obsessively involved in a myriad of ways across arts, science, and technology. And of course we fought the last two BIG wars more or less on the same side.

I've talked to many Americans who were in love with everything about England, that is, until they actually went there.

But my favorite story is of a hiking buddy I had when I still lived in Boston. His father went over to England on business, having never been, and told the rest of the family that he'd research their origins if he found the time. Comes the return, they all go to Logan Airport to pick him up, he gathers them into his arms and announces "We're WELSH!"

The family name was James.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:50 AM

I suspect it was the queuing itself that was the problem. A single line is not the quickest way to fill a lifeboat (especially with women in restricting skirts and with small children) but is the easiest to control.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:58 AM

>There's a couple stories out there of males who donned female attire.<

Isn't that just an English cultural thing, not an ethical issue?

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 12:09 PM

Victoria died in 1901, Titanic sank in 1912.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Megan L
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 12:19 PM

Edwardian era no Victorian

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 12:41 PM

And he would know, he was a young man at the time....






































I'll get me coat... :D

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 01:16 PM

I don't think it would be too off-topic to add this "clean" version of this African American "toast" to this thread:

SHINE AND THE TITANIC

Shine and the Titanic

It was a hell of a day in the merry month of May
When the great Titanic was sailing away.
The captain and his daughter was there, too,
And old black Shine, he didn't need no crew.

Shine was downstairs eating his peas
When the . . .water come up to his knees.
He said, "Captain, Captain, I was downstairs eating my peas When the water come up to my knees."
He said, "Shine, Shine, set your black self down.
I got ninety-nine pumps to pump the water down."

Shine went downstairs looking through space.
That's when the water came up to his waist.
He said, "Captain, Captain, I was downstairs looking through space,
That's when the water came up to my waist."
He said, "Shine, Shine, set your black self down.
I got ninety-nine pumps to pump the water down."

Shine went downstairs, he ate a piece of bread.
That's when the water came above his head.
He said, "Captain, Captain, I was downstairs eating my bread
And the . . .water came above my head."
He said, "Shine, Shine, set your black self down.
I got ninety-nine pumps to pump the water down."

Shine took off his shirt, took a dive. He took one stroke
And the water pushed him like it pushed a motorboat.

[one or more sentences missing here about the captain asking Shine to save him]

I'll give you more money than any black man see."
Shine said, "Money is good on land or sea.
Take off your shirt and swim like me."
And Shine Swam on.
Shine met up with the whale.
The whale said, "Shine, Shine, you swim mighty fine,
But if you miss one stroke, your black self is mine."
Shine said, "You may be the king of the ocean, king of the sea,
But you got to be a swimming son-of-a-gun to out-swim me."
And Shine swam on.
Now when the news got to the port, the great Titanic has sunk,
You won't believe this, but old Shine was on the corner damn near drunk.

http://www.louisianafolklife.org/LT/Articles_Essays/creole_art_toast_tradition.html



Also, see this excerpt from http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/filmnotes/titanica/titanic.html

"The Toast of the Titanic Oral Tradition Carries On Legend of Lone African American By Dana Hull, Washington Post, December 20, 1997; Page F01 -

Titanic hoopla is upon us: the documentary, the musical, now the movie. Yet buried deep in the mythology of the doomed voyage is the story of Shine, a fictional character who lives on through the folk traditions of the African American community. Legend has it that the only black man on board the Titanic was a laborer called Shine -- "shine" being a derogatory term for blacks. Because he worked below deck, Shine was the first to realize that the Titanic was sinking, and thus was able to escape while more than 1,500 passengers perished in the April 14, 1912, disaster.

Most stories about Shine take place in the form of "toasts," an improvisational oral narrative popular in black communities from the 1920s to the early 1960s. A form of street poetry, toasts were usually performed in the male provinces of pool halls and street corners, and were passed on from friend to friend. Often as profane as they were misogynistic, the raplike verses reveal a different perspective of the event that currently is being celebrated in the Hollywood blockbuster starring Leonardo DiCaprio and Kate Winslet. The Shine toast revels in sharing a smug satisfaction that the Titanic -- a symbol of white European arrogance and affluence -- sank on its maiden voyage. The irony that African Americans were not allowed to make the crossing -- thus sparing their lives -- inspired a wealth of jokes, toasts and ballads.

Numerous verses of the various Shine toasts, particularly those that refer to the female anatomy, are not suitable for a family newspaper. But the rhyming verses, which could last for up to 10 minutes, go something like this: Up stepped a black man from the deck below that they called Shine.Hollerin, "Captain! Captain! Don't you know? There's forty feet of water on the boiler room flo'." The captain said, "Go back, you dirty black! We got a thousand pumps to keep this water back." Because Shine exists solely in the oral tradition, verses would vary from teller to teller.

Roger Abrahams, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania, was one of the few folklorists to record them. "Most versions of the Titanic fit into the same general pattern," he wrote in his 1963 book "Deep Down in the Jungle: Negro Narrative Folklore From the Streets of Philadelphia." There's a "prologue about the terrible day on which the ship sank; the introduction of Shine, the mythical Negro stoker on board the ship; a description of his argument with the captain about whether the ship was sinking; his jumping into the water and his amazing swimming ability described; the captain's offer of money to save him, which he refuses; the offer of the captain's wife and/or daughter of sexual relations with him, which he likewise refuses; a conversation with the shark and/or whale where he claims to be able to out-swim them (which he apparently does); and a final ironic twist in which it is mentioned that Shine swam so fast that by the time news of the sea tragedy arrived, Shine was already inebriated in some specific location." When the news got around the world that the great Titanic had sunk, Shine was in Harlem on 125th street, damn near drunk. Or: When all them white folks went to Heaven, Shine was in Sugar Ray's Bar drinking Seagram's Seven. "Shine is the clever black," says Bruce Jackson, a professor of American culture at SUNY-Buffalo who traveled around the country recording toasts in the 1960s and '70s. "He's the only one on board smart enough to save his life, and he's the only one strong enough to physically swim to shore." Other toasts include stories about a barroom brawl involving Stagger Lee, or tales of the Signifying Monkey, an animal fable in which a clever monkey outwits a lion. "There are a number of toasts," Jackson says of his field recordings. "But I heard the most toasts about the Titanic. It made an enormous impact on the popular imagination of the time. People knew in the black community that it was an all-white ship -- it was part of the White Star Line. When it went down, that was not lost on the community." But the sinking of the Titanic was not solely the province of toasts. Numerous musicians, from guitarist Blind Willie Johnson to the New Lost City Ramblers, recorded songs that told the Titanic tale. Some versions, recorded as "God Moves on the Water," were widely circulated in the 1920s and focused on the spiritual aspects of the accident.

The Titanic was a symbol of technological prowess, and some people saw the disaster as divine intervention. It's possible to spend hours listening to Titanic tunes in the majestically dusty archives of the Smithsonian's Center for Folklife Programs and Cultural Studies. Ask archivist Jeff Place for Titanic songs, and he'll pull out album after album: Pink Anderson's Carolina Medicine Show Hokum & Blues, Bessie Jones and the Georgia Sea Island Singers, Mance Lipscomb. Others recall singing a song about "When That Great Ship Went Down" at summer camp. The famed blues guitarist Leadbelly also recorded a Titanic song. His lyrics included the common folklore that Jack Johnson, the black man who was world heavyweight boxing champion at the time, was denied passage on the boat. Jack Johnson wanted to get on board Captain, he said, "I ain't hauling no coal" Fare thee, Titanic, fare thee well. "There are a lot of songs about the Titanic, in part because the story itself is so dramatic," says Anthony Seeger, curator of the Folkways Recordings archives. "Versions of songs about the Titanic have been done with rock, gospel and blues. The clarity in which class distinctions were made on the voyage really resonated in folk culture, and by singing about it Americans were able to comment on their feelings." As Leadbelly sang it: When he heard that mighty shock, Mighta seen that man doin' the Eagle Rock Fare thee, Titanic, fare thee well". "

-snip-

[I changed the formatting of this paragraph to enhance its readability]

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 01:23 PM

So...the Unsinkable Molly Brown was actually unsinkable because she was really a pushy Yankee b**ch?

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:42 PM

It's an honour system to save women and children first, and a very good one, I think. As another poster pointed out, it's also a survival system. Men are more expendable than women and children if you want a people to survive some disaster in the long term. Amerindians knew that well, for instance, and they always attempted to save the women and children when a camp was being attacked. The men would go out and lay down their lives to give the women and children time to escape.

If the British followed that honour system, I think they were doing the right thing and they should be commended for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:28 PM

Read the details and do a little research about the makeup of the passenger list and survivors - it was more about "class status" rather than country.

If they were truly doing the right thing, there would have been more people on the lifeboats instead of some being less than 1/2 full.

Molly Brown, by the way, was hardly a "Yankee bitch". Being from Missouri, she was probably a Cardinals fan and not a Yankee!! :)   She was also recognized as an activist and a philanthropist - working for woman's rights and established a woman's suffarage movement in Denver. She also was known for working in soup kitchens and assisting miners families in the labor struggles. On top of that, she was involved with historic preservation and also in helping France re-build after WW1. France even awarded her the Legion of Honor.    Yes, she was just another bitchy and pushy American!

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: GUEST,Jts
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 06:23 PM

If you read the article, the only evidence given is anecdotes about British men putting their own wives and children on the lifeboats and then smoking cigars. We don't know whether or not American men did the same. I suspect that some did. I do know that where I was raised in Newfoundland, Canada, a place that highly treasured British values, I was taught that women and children first would be expected of me in such a situation. I guess that if things were clear cut and dire enough I like to think that I would think that way. But looking at current situations such as building fires and plane crashes, having the closest to the door exit in the quickest most orderly manner is probably much more practical. Or maybe I would just heed the orders of those in authority. I pretty sure that ultimately, that's what most of the men on the Titanic did.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 07:27 PM

It's a pity the British weren't so nice a few years earlier in South Africa Keith. Here Kitchener started concentration camps in South Africa. By destroying crops, livestock and farmsteads under the 'Scorched Earth' policy the Boer fighters were deprived of supplies and shelter.It also left the women and children on such farms destitute and they were forcibly removed, against their will, to the camps where thousands died of disease and starvation. A great shame on the British, then again this is nothing new.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 08:55 PM

Tongue in cheek, Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:02 PM

I realize that Art, but I think some people should know the real story.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:12 PM

In today's world, there would be no cigars smoking allowed on the public decks, with the anti smoking lawa.

As a German friend once told me, its women and children first, except at an all you can eat buffet table.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:14 PM

The story of atrocities perpetrated by the British Empire in the Boer War is a shocking one indeed, but it wasn't a situation brought about or desired by the British population....it was Imperial strategy from the top down, strategy decided upon by a few powerful men in the British hierarchy. The British population, had they been fully aware of the situation, would have been horrified at what their government was doing in South Africa, and most of them would have opposed it.

That is what usually happens. A few powerful men at the top of the imperial structure decide....a lot of hapless soldiers are made to "follow orders"...and thousands of innocent people suffer and die (among them some of those hapless soldiers).

The British soldeirs who died at places like Spion Kopp did not die for England or on behalf of the English population. They did not die so anyone could be free. They died for a few profit-seeking men of power like Cecil Rhodes and Kitchener.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:29 PM

It is starkly clear from the annotated passenger lists (showing who survived) that men did indeed put women and children first.   Check the Titanic Passengerslist, and you'll find that Mrs. T.W. Cavendish and Maid survived, but Mr. T.W. Cavendish did not, Mrs. M. Rothschild survived, but Mr. M. Rothschilde did not. Mrs. Arthur Ryerson and Maid, along with Miss Emily, Miss Susan, and Master Jack Ryerson survived, but Mr. Arthur Ryerson did not.

Only about a third of the passengers survived. In first class, however, only four women perished, of the one hundred fourty four, and only one of six children. However, only 57 of 175 men in first class survived. Eighty of the ninety three women in second class survived as well, and all of the children. Only about a quarter of those in third class survived--many of those were probably neither British nor American-

Curiously, only 14 of 168 men in second class survived--less than 10%, which is less than even the survival rate of men in third class, which was about 15%, and which one would assume would have been the lowest. Less than a quarter of the crew survived.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:40 PM

Thanks M.Ted.

Has Rupert Murdoch acquired an interest in the BBC?

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:44 PM

The abstract of the article in question says thisL

Abstract:      
This paper explores the determinants of survival in a life-and-death situation created by an external and unpredictable shock. We are interested in seeing whether pro-social behaviour matters in such extreme situations. We therefore focus on the sinking of the RMS Titanic as a quasi-natural experiment to provide behavioural evidence that is rare in such a controlled and life threatening event. The empirical results support that social norms such as "women and children first" survive in such an environment. We also observe that women of reproductive age have a higher probability of surviving among women. On the other hand, we observe that crew members used their information advantage and their better access to resources (e.g. lifeboats) to generate a higher probability of surviving. The paper also finds that passenger class, fitness, group size, and cultural background matter.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1284967#

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:58 PM

and a quote from Savage:

David Savage, a behavioural economist at the Queensland University of Technology, studied four 20th-century maritime disasters to determine how people react in life and death situations. He concluded that, on the whole, behaviour is influenced by altruism and social norms, rather than a "survival of the fittest" mentality. However, on the Titanic he noted Americans were 8.5 per cent more likely to survive than other nationalities, while British passengers were 7 per cent less likely to survive.

"The only things I can put that down to are: there would have been very few Americans in steerage or third class; and the British tend to be very polite and queue." (The ship's first-class staterooms were closest to the lifeboat deck.)

Savage admits there is no direct evidence for his hypothesis concerning the Americans.

http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/


Mr Savage said he had no direct evidence that Americans on the Titanic were pushy or rude, "But a significantly higher number survived, and there's got to be a reason," he said.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/more-britons-than-americans-died-on-titanic-because-they-queued-1452299.html

Savage also said, and British newspapers took it up:

The captain, Edward John Smith, shouted out: "Be British, boys, be British!" as the cruise liner went down, according to witnesses.

This certainly is silly newspaper fluff, but without the harmful nastiness of the articles quoted here the other day about Hispanic Americans bringing on the subprime meltdown and world economic collapse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:04 PM

Last thing I promise:
"The only things I can put that down to are: there would have been very few Americans in steerage or third class. . "

He says Americans win by 8.5%, but DOESN'T EVEN BOTHER to risk adjust for the very factors he found relevant e.g. class, gender, age.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 05:46 AM

False argument Al.
All the colonial powers incuding US acted like that and Britain behaved better than most, if not all.
Your prejudice is showing again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 06:00 AM

The British keep on waffling about the Nazis, while forgetting at the same time that the whole world see the British Empire as a pure Racist Nazi Empire, too.

Ask the Irish, ask the French, ask the Sioux, ask the Lakota, (native Americans) ask the Kenyans, ask Boers (South Africa, where the British invented the Concentration camps and murdered 40 000 innocent women and children) ask all of Africa, and most of all ask INDIA where you murdered 29 Million innocent people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 06:28 AM

Brit tourists have given us a bad name in many places, but we are very friendly with India and Kenya and South Africa.
I do not think the Lakota Sioux blame the British for the way the US treated them.
I think you are trying to justify an irrational hatred.
You must be a very unhappy man Al.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Stu
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 07:27 AM

The British keep on waffling about the Nazis, while forgetting at the same time that the whole world see the British Empire as a pure Racist Nazi Empire, too"

Would you like me to kill myself in reparation for the sins of my ancestors then?

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Midchuck
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 07:36 AM

Would you like me to kill myself in reparation for the sins of my ancestors then?

Let's everyone who has any ancestors who did horrible things to others kill themselves in reparation. The fact that the race would become extinct forthwith shouldn't be a consideration.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 07:38 AM

"ask the Sioux, ask the Lakota,"

Wasn't the British contact with them to give them asylum from the USA?

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 07:40 AM

You can go on forever as long as I am concerned, Heric, I love this kind of discussion--I do agree completely, though, he doesn't adjust for risk factors--

As far as the adjusting goes, the Ryersons mentioned above were Americans, and, notwithstanding the fact that the Patriach, Mr.Arthur, behaved as a gentleman, and, in our parlance, succumbed to his own "niceness", the Ryersons had a survival rate of 85%, which would add into the "American" statistic, the men traveling without family in 2nd class who behaved exactly the same way had nothing to offset their sacrifice in the statistics-so the American survival percentages were related the distribution of women and children in the first class,where 212 people, were Americans, only 40 were British--the survival rate among women in Ist class was 95%

Also, the ship being registered at Liverpool, would probably have had a crew that consisted mostly of British subjects--the crew comprised 40% of the people on board, and their survival rate, notwithstanding that our "expert" felt that crew had a better chance of surviving, was lower than any of the three classes--so that would affect the percentages, as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 07:53 AM

Ah, but the female crew survival rate was 100%.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 10:08 AM

"South Africa, where the British invented the Concentration camps and murdered 40 000 innocent women and children"

Couple of points there Guest Al

1. The British did not "invent" concentration camps in South Africa during the Boer War. If anyone gets the "prize" for that dubious distinction it would the Spanish in Cuba, followed closely by the Americans in the Philipines. In both those cases the numbers who died in their camps amounted to 200,000 to 250,000.

2. 40,000 innocent women and children did not die in the British Camps the number was about 26,000 - Roughly the same as the number of British and Empire troops who died at the same time in their camps of exactly the same diseases.

As for - "ask INDIA where you murdered 29 Million innocent people."

Where on earth do you dig this crap up from?

Now take your methadone and go and lie down for a while, don't forget to lock the door of the Portacabin after you've turned off the computer. By the bye how much longer have you got on "the programme".

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 10:19 AM

As far as the British Subjects on board--I am not convinced that they were any less "individualistic" than the Americans--read this from "Encyclopedia Titanica"--

Colonel John Weir, 60, was a native of Scotland who had made a fortune in western mining before returning to Scotland, where his daughter and sister lived, and to England. He had been president of the Nevada-Utah Mines & Smelters corporation. During the Spanish-American War he was appointed quartermaster-general by President McKinley and served in the Phillipines. Accordig to local papers he was well thought of in Salt Lake City "The years had left him gray, but his heart was young and his strong body retained without a hint of the years, it bore the strainght lines of the typical soldier." Weir was known for his Christmas spirit, giving his friends substantial gifts during the Christmas season. After he returned to Europe he made frequent trips back to Utah, and often stayed at the Knuteford. He was a member of the Alta club in Salt Lake City.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 11:06 AM

In the interests of historical accuracy, I should note that the Second Boer War and the Philippine "Insurrection" covered almost exactly the same period of time, 1899-1902 (the war in the Philippines began in February, that in the Transvaal in October, but they ended 5 days apart). There is some question in both cases as to when the camps opened, and when they transitioned from places to keep civilians out of the line of fire to breeding grounds for disease. The credit for the first "modern" use of such facilities probably goes to the US for the internment of Indian families on reservations so their men would quit fighting, in the 1880 and early 1890s. (Earlier reservations were established for different reasons) A close runner-up (chronologically) would be the similar treatment given to the families of rubber workers in the Belgian Congo.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 11:23 AM

Here's a poem by C. Fox Smith which commemorates the Birkenhead sinking that Terribus referenced:

The Loss Of The Birkenhead

Silent they stood upon that stranded wreck
    Fast on a hidden shoal,
Drawn up in line upon the leaning deck
    For their last muster-roll.
There was no wailing heard of wild affright,
    No cry of those who drown:
All silent, in the darkness of the night,
    The Birkenhead went down.

Many there were that hour who sank below,
    Drown'd in the dark cold brine,
Who ne'er had tried their worth against the foe,
    Nor stood in battle-line.
But bravely, truly, as in front of fight,
    Each won a hero's crown,
When the staunch Birkenhead at dead of night
    Off Danger Point went down.

Where lives the man dare say that all in vain
    Those hero lives were spent?
Ever their proud example shall remain
    A deathless monument.
Ever the tale of sacrifice shall shine
    In England's long renown,
How, strong and still, drawn up in steadfast line,
    Five hundred souls went down.

Notes:

From THE FOREMOST TRAIL, by Cicely Fox Smith, published by Sampson Low, Marston & Co., London, UK, © 1899, pp. 30-31.

The "Birkenhead" was a British iron, paddle-wheel frigate of 1400 tons. On the 26th February, 1852, she struck a submerged rock off Danger Point, South Africa. The "Birkenhead" has secured a place in history due to the gallantry of her soldiers, who, in the face of great danger, allowed the women and children to escape in the boats before trying to save themselves. In the tragedy 445 People lost their lives. 193 people, including all the women and children, survived. This disaster is seen as the start of the naval tradition of "Women and Children First."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:25 PM

No Teribus, I can't agree with you on any of those points. Modern images of India often show poverty and lack of development, India was the richest country on earth until the time of British invasion in the early 17th Century.

Hope your well, how is Benjamin Reddy mate ?

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Stu
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:45 PM

Sorry A1 - do you still want me to top myself for all the sins of the British?

Go on old son, don't jib out on me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:47 PM

I'm afraid Guest Al that India's poistion in the world today rather stands at odds to your fairytale.

Your "silent-movie-like" portrayal of Great Britain as the vile-villain of the piece is a bit of a myth when you go into detail.

India is poised to become one of the great world powers within the course of the next few decades. That is in part due to the investment made in India by Great Britain during the days of the Raj.

Give you some examples:

- Land under irrigation before the British arrived 5%
- Land under irrigation when the British left 25%
- Railways
- Coal mining
- Iron Foundaries
- Manufacturing Industries

All built and established during the Raj

India may well eclipse even China in Super power status Guest Al. Do you know why? Because far far more of them speak English as a second language.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 01:23 PM

"Only about a quarter of those in third class survived--many of those were probably neither British nor American-"

I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of those in steerage who were neither British nor American were Irish, and at that time, like it or not, the Irish were under British rule. I wonder whether they would have been classified as "British" in the context of these studies?

My paternal grandparents had left the farm in County Mayo a couple of years earlier and moved to Liverpool in order to work and earn enough money to continue traveling on to the US. Family legend has it that they were booked on the Titanic (in second class), but my Aunt Peg (then an infant and still their only child) was seriously ill ~ enough to postpone the trip.

Whether that detail is true or not, I know for a fact that they DID arrive in New York on a White Star Line ship (same company as the Titanic), only a month or so after the Titanic had sunk.

All members of my extended family traveled across the ocean in second-class steamship accommodations. Each could have crossed over sooner on steerage (third), since less money would have been needed, but they all spent the extra time working and saving in Liverpool out of fear (or, at least, caution).

They knew people who had been turned back at Ellis Island, which is where third-class foreign passengers were processed into the US. Second-class passengers stayed on board when the ship docked at Ellis, and then disembarked an hour or so later on the west side of Manhattan, where they could enter the US much more easily ~ provided that they were met at the dock by a resident US "sponsor."

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 03:16 PM

No teribus, I stand by my facts. Contact John Thornton and David Marsh for confirmation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Hrothgar
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 05:28 PM

"... Sorry about all the French, when we're discussing an almost entirely English-speaking group..."

No, many of them were Amerticans.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 05:53 PM

There were 113 Irish in 3rd class, not counted as British, who numbered 120, but even added together, they were less than a third of the total 708. There were actually more Scandinavians than Irish--24 Norwegians, 104 Swedes, and 59 Finns. There were also a surprising number of Syrians, 79, and they had a significantly higher survival rate than the others.

Pity the poor Bulgarians, 33 passengers, but none survived. Check Demographics of Passengers .

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 07:00 PM

Those in 3rd class were locked in to their quarters by the British crew.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 07:11 PM

C'mon, Al - if that were true, then there wouldn't have been a higher survival rate among 3rd class women than 1st class men.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: heric
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 07:16 PM

Hey the section titled CREW, EMPLOYEES, AND SERVANTS points towards the answer on the discrepancies between your numbers and the Savage declaration that "crew" survived disproportionately by manipulation. Item 2, for example, says that 70% of the "sailors" survived. 100% of engineers perished (item 4.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Rowan
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 10:48 PM

South Africa, where the British invented the Concentration camps and murdered 40 000 innocent women and children

Pardon the thread drift, but I seem to recall Ken Burns' film of the (US) Civil War portraying the Confederate Army/Administration as having established the "first concentration camp"; apart from the dates (not being a US citizen I've had much less exposure to salient myths/folklore/real historical facts than US 'catters), which I gather were around 1864, I can't present details, but I do recall Burns making the assertion.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:42 AM

Rowen, the Confederate Army had some pretty horrendous prisoner of war camps, of which Andersonville is certainly the best known. Many of the Union Army POW camps were not much (if any) better. Although starvation was rarely an issue in the north, Southern soldiers were unready for northern winters and the winter clothing provided to them was, at best, inadequate. However, concentration camps, in the sense of 'concentrating' noncombatants for significant periods of time, were not a feature of the American Civil War.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Rowan
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:40 AM

Thanks, Art. That's why I used the quotation marks. My recollection was that those words were actually used and formed part of a group of features of that war that were regarded as 'innovative'; "total war" (meaning denial of resources to civilians as well as to combatants), reliance on railways and their targeted destruction were others mentioned in the same way by Burns' film.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Stu
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 04:53 AM

"Those in 3rd class were locked in to their quarters by the British crew."

Evidence for this (and Leonardo de Caprio rattling gates in the film doesn't count)?

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 05:10 AM

On the other hand Guest Al you could try reading Niall Ferguson, Professor of International history at Harvard University, Senior Research Fellow at Jesus College, Oxford University and Senior Fellow of the Hoover Institution, Stanford University.

His take on things is somewhat different to your own.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 05:35 AM

Al, is it possible you are confusing the people of India with the Lakota Sioux.
Some people used to call them Indians.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:36 PM

A couple of other minor points Guest Al relating to this pearl you cast before us:

"India was the richest country on earth until the time of British invasion in the early 17th Century."

Point 1 - Fairly obvious but anyone who has even a rudimentary knowledge of history could tell you that prior to the arrival of the British, the Portuguese, the French and the Dutch - There was no such country as India, so it could hardly have been the richest could it?? India was used to describe the land mass that made up the sub-continent. The sub-continent itself consisted of a number of independent states, that the various European powers traded with.

Point 2 - When exactly was this British "invasion" of India Guest Al?? And what did the British use to carry out this "invasion"?? Taking into account that there were roughly 350 million people living on the sub-continent of India at the time and that the British Army at the height of Queen Victoria's power consisted of only 120,000 men - their not so numerous fore-fathers must have been real hard bastards Eh?? Maybe you should look up the history of a London trading House called "The Honourable East India Company" Guest Al, established by Royal Charter on 31st December 1600, by Queen Elizabeth I, became defunct in 1858 (After the Indian Mutiny) and formally dissolved in 1873.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 03:11 AM

Heric--In point of fact, eighteen of the engineers did survive--in fact five of the twelve on Lifeboat number one were from the engineering section. Make of it what you will.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 03:52 AM

Teribus, my facts and figures can be confirmed. Check with Lance Corporal Ben Whatley.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Stu
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 04:52 AM

Guest A1 - typical of the trolling poltroons that appear more and more common on this board these days. Doesn't even have the guts to answer questions addressed directly to him, which makes you wonder if his obvious hatred of all things British has robbed him of the ability to debate or discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:47 AM

Interesting Guest Al:

Benjamin Reddy, John Thorton, David Marsh and Ben Whatley

All Royal Marines all killed on active duty in Afghanistan.

Illustrates your grip on reality perfectly as you direct me to contact them to corroborate your rather fanciful take on things.

So far on this thread, as has been the case with your contributions on others, everything that you have said has been shot to pieces, which is not surprising, and certainly no accomplishment, as most of what you spew out is firmly based on bigotry and ignorance that is astounding in one of your age.

Part of nothing, accomplished nothing, a completely forgettable non-entity is what you are Guest Al and while you wallow about in your mediocrity be comforted by this thought - "You could not at any point in your entire existence ever be considered fit to lick the boots of the young men you mentioned".

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 06:11 AM

I once did a childrens talk called lucky tickets on a board i had a lottery ticket a raffle ticket and a copy of a ticket from the Titanic. Most of the children and adults chose either the lottery or raffle ticket. The luckiest ticket of the three however belonged to someone who had disembarked the ship at I think it was Le Harve. I then went on to tell them of some of the amazing tales of courage love and sacrifice that happened on that tragic night.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: GUEST,Robert McKibben
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:16 AM

Teribus, check your facts before ranting. Thank you.

---

Al, you're trolling for trouble - which means you're no longer welcome to post in this thread. If you post as a guest, you are expected to be on your best behavior - and to use a consistent name every time you post.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:45 AM

Robert McKillen is another Marine killed recently in Afghanistan.
Guest Al celebrated the deaths of servicemen there when he joked about "they (soldiers) getting fewer as the weeks go by."

The families of these fallen may visit this forum.
I am surely not the only member to find this crowing over the names of fallen soldiers vile and offensive.

I hope it is soon removed.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:46 AM

Sorry, Robert McKibben.
k.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 08:06 AM

Thank you, Terebus and Kieth A. I have a lot of historical tidbits, but that is a connection I don't think anyone in the US would have made. Jerk.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: bubblyrat
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 11:44 AM

Gosh !! I had no IDEA that we awful ,pioneering,road-and-hospital -building,educating,paternalistic,British had done so many dreadful things,and had cold-heartedly murdered so many hundreds of thousands,if not millions of people all over the world, in South Africa,India, (at the time the most powerful nation on Earth ??)and of course,America,where,according to Hollywood and Mel Gibson,we locked up women and children in churches,and then burned them alive !! I feel AWFUL now !! Of course, the stories that I have read recently,about the US Cavalry riding into "Red Indian " villages, and slaughtering all the women and children, even cutting off the formers' genitals, just so that the US government could get at the gold laying under the desolate,barren lands that they had previously so magnanimously permitted the "Savages" to eke out a pitiful existence on -----well, it's all LIES -----Isn't it ?? Yes ??Tell me, Al .Tell me it ain't so, please??

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: GUEST,James Bateman
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 11:57 AM

Priceless bubblyrat, simply pricelss.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 12:48 PM

I'm beginning to think that Savage had a nice idea here that just didn't pan out as well as he had hoped, with statistical significance. It's so hard to tell when we have only journalistic tripe to work with. It would be a bad assumption that the quotes reported were accurate or in context. He was studying altruism (the lynchpin of society in animals) and the cultural (learned behavior) overlay in a crisis environment holding mixed "groups" (where the classifications are arguably arbitrary or poorly chosen.)

Although he is called a behavioral economist, this is the stuff of animal behaviorists and population biologists. The mongrel group called "Americans" had a more diverse gene pool and a formative, "adolescent" culture, while being the largest "group." Scandinavians presumably had the tightest genetic relationships, in a smaller group. The British of the day may have been suspected to be the ones with the strongest cultural rules and norms.

He may well still believe that he could show, with superior test design, that cultural aspects of British behavior disproportionately affected results that would have been predicted by population biologists, or somehow became a relevant factor enhancing or diminishing theoretical predictions from Darwinian modeling at the group level.

He did find, he says, statistically significant groupings by group size, passenger class, sex, age and fitness. It seems though, that group size, passenger class (and probably Americans communicating in the dominant language, I would guess) swamped lesser classifications, notably national culture, relegating them to statistical insignificance.

"Be British, boys" may have inspired his hypothesis and "Americans proved pushy" may have inspired newspaper editors, but all in all it is interesting reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 07:45 AM

Heric, more info on the original report here.
http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2009/01/who-survived-the-titanic.html

Dear moderators,
I assume it is an oversight that the lampooning of the names of young men recently killed in Afghanistan has been allowed to remain here on the forum.
I am sure it is not because Al used to be Oakville and is "known to a number of members"

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 09:26 AM

Savage's idea seems to be that Americans elbowed their way on to the lifeboats. I don't see what's particularly nice about that idea. There certainly was no evidence of it in any of the investigations that were conducted-

In point of fact, the man most conspicuously accused of elbowing hiss way onto a Titanic lifeboat was J. Bruce Ismay, the managing director of White Star Lines, and a Brit--who also was, it is said, responsible for reducing the number of lifeboats provided for in the ship's design from 48 to 16, as to allow for greater space in first class.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 09:35 AM

Ismay does not emerge with much honour.
It was his decision to reduce the number of boats, so he knew well that there were not enough as he secured a place for himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 10:11 AM

Here's a little blurb from something called econonomiclogic.com which claims the study did proper regression analysis but points out that the survival differential applies only to American v. British men, not to women (or children, I assume.)

http://economiclogic.blogspot.com/2009/01/fairness-culture-and-selfish-american.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 12:30 PM

GUEST,Heric, said in part:

He may well still believe that he could show, with superior test design, that cultural aspects of British behavior disproportionately affected results that would have been predicted by population biologists, or somehow became a relevant factor enhancing or diminishing theoretical predictions from Darwinian modeling at the group level.

Huh? What in the world is meant here by "theoretical predictions from Darwinian modeling"?

From my reading of Darwin I've not seen anything he said about a model from which theoretical predictions of social behavior could be made.

If I'm wrong, please educate me.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: heric
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 01:10 PM

wrong about what?

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 01:18 PM

Don't ask us to attempt the impossible, Dave!

(Heh! I'm just joking. Couldn't resist.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: heric
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 01:21 PM

Population biologists analyzing group selection (natural selection at group levels) love doing studies like this. They would generally predict altruistic behavior to protect the females of reproductive age, and would also predict altruistic behavior to favor close relatives, protecting the group's collective genetic makeup. Of course it doesn't work here because of arbitrary groupings, small sample size and retrospective analysis instead of properly designed experiments. But it just struck me that this is what the guy was hoping he could do, I think. "Culture" is an advanced overlay, compared to animal populations which are often social/societal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: heric
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 01:27 PM

But, yes, I could be completely full of nonsensical bullshit, too, which is what I think the question was? Always a possibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: heric
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 01:31 PM

Oh I see it, sorry. Don't know about Darwin hisself on group selection, but google e.g. altruism marmots; stuff like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: heric
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 01:51 PM

Darwin noted altruism and was puzzled by it.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/altruism-biological/

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: heric
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 02:00 PM

The idea that group selection might explain the evolution of altruism was first broached by Darwin himself. In The Descent of Man (1871), Darwin discussed the origin of altruistic and self-sacrificial behaviour among humans.

(Ibid.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 02:22 PM

Historians have often speculated on the issue of exactly when the language commonly spoken by sociologists diverged from English...

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 02:35 PM

"Right then, go on ahead of me. I'll be fine. No worries. I can just lash a couple of deck chairs together or something. Never been adverse to a little swim, good for the constitution y'know. Here, let me hand you that life preserver, madam. The deck chair raft I'm building? Certainly. Take it. I insist! It's really just a first attempt and frankly I'm a bit embarrassed at the way its come out. You'd be doing me a favor, really, taking it off my hands.
An open seat on the lifeboat? Oh, no thanks. Never really liked boats, rowing, all that. Actually, I have no idea why I even thought of crossing the ocean on this one, really not my sort of thing. No, no lifeboats for me. I'd much rather grab onto a sturdy bit of flotsam or jetsam. Nothing like the old flotsam for floating out of a shipwreck I always say."

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 03:03 PM

One of the somewhat offensive ideas that runs through all this is that Americans are somehow less inclined to "queue" and wait their turn than Brits. T'ain't true.

Americans are fairly fastidious about getting, and staying, "in line", even now. It is not uncommon to see people line up, even when there is nothing to actually line up for. Maybe we have a different style, but we do it, and we we take it very seriously when people cut in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: heric
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 03:59 PM

And of course the Darwin book is available to us all for free at google books. At around page 93 he gets into it, explaining (with examples) how in societies of the most primitive sort and onward, fear of social approbation works to the common good, countering the instinct for self-preservation. Then he claims:

"As man advances in civilization, and small tribes are united into larger communities, the simplest reason would tell each individual that he ought to extend his social instincts and sympathies to all members of the same nation, though personally unknown to him. This point once being reached, there is only an artificial barrier to his sympathies being extended to the men of all nations and races."


http://books.google.com/books?id=iArG1dDytFAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+Descent+of+Man#PPA134,M1

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: heric
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 04:09 PM

I guess we don't hear about this book much because it's Darwin on (that big no-no) Social Darwinism.




The pre-Christmas human stampede that trampled a store employee to death (Best Buy?)was caused by people cutting in. That may have been an easier choice for Savage to study and prove his point.

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: heric
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 04:15 PM

anti-approbation, whatever the word is. Reproval?

Subject: RE: BS: Brits on Titanic die of niceness
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 04:50 PM

If he was interested in a contemporary study of the behavior of Brits in crowds, he could have researched the situation where a taunted boy jumps to death. .   He didn't exactly die of "niceness".