BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?

Subject: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:16 PM

Not to be diverting attention to the other thread about Bush's desire for a war on Iraq, it seems that he is Hell bent on a hot war, any where... against any one.

Donald Rumsfield says the the US is capable of fighting on two fronts. Counting Afganistan, that makes three, but who's counting? Throw in North Korea and Iran and that makes four or five. With the US involved in so many fronts, how many other skirmishes will break out where bad folks will figure that the US is too occupied to notice.

I'm seeing the world on the utter brink of a WORLD WAR!

Your thoughts?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:19 PM

all the politicians of the world are united in 'spin'- hence the quest for 'WEAPONS of MASS DISTRACTION'!!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: TIA
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:29 PM

I have no doubt that war in Irag will lead to uprisings in the Philipines, Pakistan and Indonesia to name a few. Then add a war with Korea. Meanwhile, closer to home, Venezuela, and other Latin American countries, edge closer to unrest and possible violence. A bellicose, jingoistic, US President hell bent on appearing manly, keeping our minds off his utterly failed domestic policies, and resuscitating his buddies' industries with defense contracts is all we need to set the spark to this tinderbox. It's scary as hell Bobert. I'm prepared to pack my girls off to somewhere safe like...??...??

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:36 PM

No!

Those who wish to start the III rd war are simply trying to wake us up!

It is they who are at our door.

....and upon the brink!

                   Can patience of peace loving people (and I dont mean the lying silly North Korean Madmen or Saadamites) be infinite?

Perhaps we shall see them gaze upon the long forgotten deterrant!

I dont think, in that case, that they will be wishing to remain on the brink for long! I think all americans including the leadership would much rather let the Koreans and saadamites go back to peace and let us get on with watching movies and playing computer games, which we would all much rather do.

To think that war is some sort of American fixation and phobea is simply silly. Countless administrations have demonstrated that we would rather go to sleep and look the other way and give our potential enemies our advanced technology along with financial and food aid!
We would rather institute some sort of cure for the natives like forced bussing than fight anyone. Now which neighorhood would like a few billion north koreans?

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:40 PM

TIA:

I'm with you! I survived 8 years of activism against the Vietnam War but I've been giving some serious thoughts as to where I might find a level of security and peace in a world so messed up becuase Barbara Bush made Georgie, Jr. feel so inadaquate because he wouldn't learn to use the toilet...

Man, bring back Bill. Sure, he got laid in the White House but he didn't have to kill half the world to cover it up...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: TIA
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:41 PM

Yeah, but this administration cares primarily about staying in power, and war is great for their ratings. Despite Conrad's accurate historical perspective and social commentary, I'm still scared.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:43 PM

Bobert, I think the third world war has been going on for years; the big change that September 11th wrought in our national awareness is simply the decision to take it seriously.

The earlier skirmishes were acts of war likewise, but we didn't take them as seriously -- the Cole, World Trade Center First Attack, US Beirut Embassy attacks, the seizure of hostages in 1979, Tehran, the explosion of the Marine barracks in 1983. These are by and large, IMHO, a different enemy than Saddam and his Ba'athists. Nor are they the Al-Q'aida, predominantly Sunni Islamist. These guys are more the Mullahs of Islamist Shia groups, the ones who sponsor Hezbollah.   The fascist government types such as Sadaam are a second wing. The most virulent currently is the ISlamist Sunni set, which I think is the main theme that gave rise to Al-Queda.

It is not a question of mass destruction, really, although that is the current flag being waved at the White House as a (somewhat dumb, in some ways) rallying cry. It is really an extension of the same battle we fought all through the post-WW II era, trying to contain totalitarian forces and help people establish representative, democratic-style governments.

I despise the violence of war as a complete failure of intelligence and effectiveness in every other path.

But I think we should be aware that even though we have not been "at war" with specific targets for quite a while, a number of groups have placed themselves in a condition of being at war with us!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:46 PM

Y'all worry too much.

Chill out, it ain't gonna happen.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: TIA
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:48 PM

I'm holdin' ya to that Murray.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:48 PM

#1 Peasant:

So you think it's all a bluff?

"No one in their right mind would mess with us!"

But what if we mess first? Hmmmmm, Peasant One?

Different scenerio... indeed...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:52 PM

Eve of destruction
Barry McGuire

The Eastern world, it is explodin',
Violence flarin', bullets loadin'.
You're old enough to kill, but not for votin',
You don't believe in war -- but what's that gun you're totin'?
An' even the Jordan river has bodies floatin'.
But you tell me, over and over and over again, my friend,
Ah, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.

Don't you understand what I'm tryin' to say,
An' can't you feel the fears I'm feelin' today?
If the button is pushed, there's no runnin' away,
There'll be no one to save, will the world in a grave.
Take a look around you, boy, it's bound to scare you, boy.
An' you tell me, over and over and over again, my friend,
Ah, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.

Yeak, my blood's so mad feels like coagulatin',
I'm sittin' here just contemplatin'.
I can't twist the truth, it knows no regulation,
Handful of senators don't pass legislation,
An' marches alone can't bring integration
When human respect is disintegratin',
This whole crazy world is just too frustratin'.
An' you tell me, over and over and over again, my friend,
Ah, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.

Think of all the hate there is in Red China,
Then take a look around to Selma, Alabama.
Ah, you may leave here for four days in space,
But when you return it's the same ol' place,
The poundin' of the drums, the pride an' disgrace.
You can bury your dead, but don't leave a trace.
Hate your next-door neighbor, but don't forget to say grace,
An' tell me, over and over and over again, my friend,
You don't believe we're on the eve of destruction,
No, no, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:54 PM

Amos, my brother:

Let's not forget a 30 year foriegn policy of the US that has been exclusionary, punitive and based on unilaterialism...

We are not lookin' at the big picture but what brings the greastest profits to Boss Hog.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 12:25 AM

Regime change begins at home, eh? Possibly. If it happens it will be done by popular vote, or at least a representative system, Boss og's Supreme Team notwithstanding.

The basic conflisct between representation and autocracy has been in play for a lot longer than thirty years, and even though it is going through some very bumpy permutations, it is still the same fight.

There were less than fifteen democracies in the nations of the world world 85 years ago at the start of WW I. There are something over 100 today.

That's the message we should be sending all through the Middle East, if you ask me. Something is prevailing, and it isn't dictatorship.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: michaelr
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 01:49 AM

Ah Amos, I'm sorry to say, your eyewear may be a tad on the rosy side. There hasn't been a "popular vote" since 2000, whether one takes the term to mean "all people vote" or "most votes win".

As to "representative system", I don't feel represented -- do you?

Autocracy is kicking ass on representation in the USA. There may be more democracies on the globe now than there were 85 years ago, but there's one less on this continent. And the key? Media (and thereby mind) control.

Ridiculously, we still hear claims of "liberal media". That's ludicrous; all the major media outlets are owned by the five major US corporations. Expect this trend to take hold in the rest of the world.

It's called "creeping fascism". It works by working slowly, and using great P.R. Be very afraid.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 04:14 AM

The moon? I foresee a time when a colony is set up on - or rather in the moon. Not in time for these silly-assed days, though.

On the one hand, I'm willing to grant that those in power have more information than I - or any of us, for that matter- but when you can't trust them, when you feel sure that you are being lied to and manipulated and power-pushed this way and that, for reasons you can't comprehend, what is there to do?

I'm with TIA- for what it's worth, I'll remember Murray M., DougR and a few others' take on all this. I sincerely hope they're right- and I have no such confidence.

Can you imagine feeling/saying/hoping that your president is an honorable man and that his advisors have a broad international view - and as you see what is happening now and looming on the near horizon, being utterly afraid you are WRONG? There's going to be a mad scramble as they explain to us why the president and our country had no other recourse. Talk about spin.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 04:29 AM

We've been sitting on the doorstep since 1945. Someone rang the bell round about 1958 and now we can hear the footsteps coming down the hallway.... there's still time to run away but somehow I don't think that will happen.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: C-flat
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 05:32 AM

Yes I think we could well be on the brink of a World War. The powers driving the initiative against Saddam Hussein see only the opportunity to complete what was left undone from the Gulf war and are using the "War against terror" banner to hide behind after the shock of September 11th. Worryingly, the men with their fingers on the triggers see this only in terms of armed superiority and therefore marching into to Bahgdad is a foregone conclusion. Both the weapons inspection and the demand for a comprehensive statement from Iraq is a bluff designed to give us a reason to attack.
Undoubtedly Saddam Hussein is a murderous tyrant who is a negative force on our planet but as the Gulf war showed, the freindly alliances the West has with Moslem states in the Middle East are fragile and would only support the pushing back of Iraqi troops from Kuwait. I can't imagine that they are comfortable with the idea of an occupying force of non-Moslems on their doorstep.
If you think of it in terms of an Arab nation wanting to remove Castro from Cuba or deciding to invade Italy or Poland because they were supporting anti-Moslem activists and you can well imagine how outraged we would all be.
This could easily become an all-out religious war in which the West becomes a catalyst to unite all Moslem nations against us. It would take one charismatic Moslem leader, Assad of Syria for example, and we might find ourselves dealing with a powerful force of deeply committed men fighting for what they truly believe in.
It's a very real and very frightening prospect.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 06:40 AM

It's been too long since there was a real war, and world leaders have become sanguine, and falsely secure. Have they forgotten the trenches, and the gas chambers, the killing fields and the dictators.
All this was going on in the days of the crusades. Saladin sounds a bit like Saddam; funny thing that!
Q.Why do nations want to stick their oar into the doings of other nations?
A. Because they think they know best!
Well fuck them all, I don't want to be dragged into a war on somebody elses say so.
I want my son to inherit a better world, and all the politicians seem to do is kill, and threaten to kill some more. What does he and my grandson, have left to look forward to? These guys in power don't care about us, they have access to the bomb shelters and the money to ensure that they and their families will be safe, in the event of conflict. It's us poor saps who man the barricades at their behest, while they massage their egos.

RANT RANT RANT.......Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 07:09 AM

(quote)
"I'm seeing the world on the utter brink of a WORLD WAR!"

It's already a Third World War , so to speak , but it's been a shadow war ,a "looking glass war" , a 2nd Cold War with a constellation of flashpoints creating a path to a critical mass.

North Korea will ultimately "have" to be taken out and dismantled and the linchpin there is China which gives one *no* degree of comfort. The regime there is already on the brink of collapse and is acting "cornered" the way a Saddam theoretically would.
China is already on its way to an arms race to challenge the West for supremacy over its sense of sovereigncy
of a declared 100 mile extension into what the world agrees to as "international" waters. ( 12 miles has been the enforced standard ).
China also has one of the most startlingly "unique" and unnatural demographic as a direct result of its state policy : namely a huge population of *only child* males. Whom here would want to face vast army of male spoiled brats with weapons and no hope of mating with their own due to scarcity.

China is also the key sponsor / supplier of the Pakistan nuclear weapons prpogream that has now acheived fruition mostly to throw off guard its only viable challenge to the South of its millitarization of the Tibetian Plateau ; India and India knows this.

Then throw in the Isreali/Palestinian hostility that others will exploit further.

I suppose all this is in the vein of "the" question of the 21st century; namely "are we now seeing the allignment of forces
that will result in final battle of Armageddon" ?

From what I'm seeing just by keeping up on geopolitical positioning ever since the 2nd Oil Shock of 1979 with the Iranian Revolution and hostage crisis , I've stepped up my praying for peace to atleast ameliorate the outcome of all of these clear & present war currents.

Fundamentalist Islamist millitantism is a ready force to be exploited by "outside" interests whom believe can gain from the disruption some are hell bent upon creating.
Where the Islamic Gandhi is to speak with authority against these blasphemers will be something the truly faithful Islamic world will have to answer for if they fail to produce and rally behind one.

Then ,again , should we still come to a true brink , there's always the trump card; namely the global upheaval of earth changes starting with the "sudden activity" of the Pacific Rim faultlines ( Mt.Aetna doing a Mt. St. Helens and such ) ending with a 24 hour cycle of Polar Axsis Shift.
Sometimes the world of humankind just needs to be grabbed and shook hard by the scruff of the neck and i'm afraid we're due.

If this arrival of the Raelians' "Cloneaid " announcement , whether or not it's a hoax for publicity to grow their membership and attract investment capital , isn't a sign of the times I don't know what is.

Oh, BTW ,the Raelians have made their world headquarters in Quebec. Way to go Canada ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 07:24 AM

( quote in need of correction )
".....namely the global upheaval of earth changes starting with the "sudden activity" of the Pacific Rim faultlines ( Mt.Aetna doing a Mt. St. Helens and such )...."

Yes, I know the recently active Mt. Aetna affects the Mediterranean Sea via Scicily.
I did say " earth changes *starting* with the sudden activity of the Pacific Rim faultlines" , but in no way *ending* with those Pacific Rim faultlines.

Eitehr way shipping lanes will most certainly be disrupted and seeing the economic disruption of just what a dock strike on the California coast or shipping interuption of Venazuela oil can cause , mass interuption orf Pacific Rim shipping traffic alone should give one pause. i mean just how dependent has the US become on goods manufactured in the Far East as our means of industrial manufacture has continued to be cast aside.

Better start stocking up on those Trail Mix granola bars as you'd be amazed what hungry people will do to eat.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: *daylia*
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 09:55 AM

ONE TIN SOLDIER

"Listen children to a story that was written long ago,
'Bout a kingdom on a mountain and the valley folk below.
On the mountain was a treasure, buried deep beneath a stone,
And the valley people swore they'd have it for their very own.

Go ahead and hate your neighbour - go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven - you can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowin' - come the Judgement Day.
On the bloody morning after - One Tin Soldier rides away.

So the people of the valley sent a message up the hill,
Asking for the buried treasure - tons of gold for which they'd kill.
Came an answer from the kingdom - 'With our brothers we will share
All the secrets of our mountain - all the riches buried there'.

Go ahead and hate your neighbour - go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven - you can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowin' - come the Judgement Day.
On the bloody morning after - One Tin Soldier rides away.

Now the valley rose in anger - 'Mount your horses! Draw your swords!'
And they killed the mountain people - so they won their just reward.
Now they stood beside the treasure - on the mountain dark and red.
Turned the stone and looked beneath it ...
                   'PEACE ON EARTH' was all it said.

Go ahead and hate your neighbour - go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven - you can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowin' - come the Judgement Day.
On the bloody morning after - One Tin Soldier rides away."

                   - The Original Caste -
                        (Canada, 1969)


Maybe it's a little trite, but to me it says it all. Some things never change. Seems we're always tottering at the brink of war. Right now it does look like we're dangerously close to losing our balance again though.

There's a real cynical part of me that says war and hate are a NECESSARY part of the human condition, because without them we wouldn't know love and peace either. That would explain why it's ALWAYS been us, in every age and on every continent. The "Law of Polarity", so to speak.

But when I ponder that too deeply I feel like "BEAM ME UP SCOTTY"...

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 10:01 AM

"Are we at the doorstep of World War III?" Dumb question. Hell, we're already having drinks in the parlour!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 11:42 AM

Boy, this is a tough one, once we get past the trite little comments and into the deep pool of reflection.

On one hand we have a President who seems hell bent on leather to get into a shooting war when all he really needs to knock of this idiot is a well thought out, and focused embargo on one industry (oil) to deny this "carrot and stick" tinhorn of his club. Two to three years later and "voila" he would be gone by his own people and nary a shot fired by anyone other than the people whose future is at stake. Painful? Yeah, but less painful and deadly than bombs and M16's. And not as much suffering as an unsustainable embargo on everything, that hurts the average citizen more than Sadaam ever could, and causes much more anger at us. And he has a Secretary of State that would be able to carry it out. As an aside, the only warrior in Bush's cabinet is also the most peace loving of the bunch. Message there for anyone?

Korea? This whole thing is a ploy by a country that is economically in desperate straights. If we did the humane kind of outreach right now, instead of the drumbeating, this would go away in a heartbeat. In fact, that is the gambit being played by the NK's, IMO. But one shouldn't downplay that, as they are desperate and if relief doesn't happen which allows survival, then I believe they will go the way of desperation. And as we saw some 50 years ago, they can play that one well.

But the one thing that must not be overlooked by all of my peace loving friends, is September 11 and the cells that are now being uncovered all over the world. There are 3,000 people dead in one attack. And the network, that has pledged itself to destroying the US, as well as Israel, is not going to go away. In fact, if we changed, and caused Israel (presuming we could) to change, all policies that these folks object to, that would still not cause the attack to cease. These folks have pledged their lives to our destruction. Now, you can talk to me all you would like to about the policies of Bush, and you won't get much disagreement. A foreign policy that I would find agreeable would be much different than the one in place. But, when it comes to attacks on my country, and a desire to destroy my children, I must tell you that I adopt a different response. Just as I demand peace and stability and safety for all the children of this planet, I also demand it for mine. I would do almost anything to attain a peaceful solution for these times, but sacrificing my children's future isn't one of those things. That is thing that always gets lost in these debates. It is easy to talk about what is wrong, but what is the answer. Poking holes in this cowboy's policy is not difficult, but are we supposed to lay back and allow more terroristic attacks that kill thousands. I think not.

Oddly enough, in the days following September 11 I thought this Presidents response was appropriate. I felt that he was correct to go after, in a very focused way, the folks that carried out the attack. But what he has done since, or should I say what his advisors have done since in his name, ais leading us down a very precarious path.

Tough issues. And they demand more thought than the trite little remarks that one often hears during these times. I wish those with a very specific agenda could be forced outside of their comfort zones to answer these more specific questions.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 12:36 PM

The term World War surely implies some kind of conflict between equals. If you had an event in which some hulking Mike Tyson kicked the shit out of a seven stone weakling who had his or her hands tied behind their back, would you call that a prize fight?

This isn't a World War it's a colonial punitive expedition. On the other hand, if the effect is to encourage most people in the world to hate and despise those seen as responsible, in the long run it might develop into a more even contest. That I assume to be the game plan of the people who planned and carried out September 11th. (Remembering that there is no reason whatsoever to believe that the regime in Iraq had anything whatsoever to do with that, however unpleasant it may be in other ways.)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 12:47 PM

McGrath:

Colonial? I must demur, sir. I do not believe in premeditated expeditionary warfare, but I do believe that the nation of Iraq would be well served by learning the fine art of representative government and shedding their dictatorship. Nothing colonial about it.   The notional issue of WMD is not a colonial issue either. It is a possible serious life-threatening factor to unknown millions of souls around the planet -- perhaps Kurds, perhaps yanks. But the problem is that the facts are not known. Those that are asserted as known are not put on the public record. That makes it problematic. Absent those facts the posturing of military might is murderous.

There is no question about the profile of the dictator. He's as sensible a leader as Adolph Hitler was. I have no idea whether he is as massive a threat militarily as Bushwah claims, and that is why I am so pissed at our Resident. I dislike not being trusted as a citizen by what appears to be a dyslexic, subliterate, historically-ignorant power clique.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: *daylia*
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 12:53 PM

Big Mick, you like that word 'trite' eh? That'll learn me for being 'apologetic' about my position!

"Love thy neighbour as I have loved you". Pretty trite, I guess. Laughable, even! But that doesn't mean it's not true. Or that it's not the ONLY solution to endless warring and avarice. If everyone directly involved cared to APPLY it to the specific situations so well outlined in the posts above, that is.

The problem with truth is that it's SO 'trite' people write it off, if they choose to listen to it at all. Pilate, at least, admitted his real ignorance - in spite of all his wordly knowledge and influence - when he asked "Truth? What is truth?"

And the Condemned One gave him the only answer he could understand.

Silence.



daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 01:32 PM

I'm not fond of the word 'trite' in discussions. Concern, anxiety, even fear may be well articulated or poorly- but don't give me 'trite'. I'm in the same world as you, faced with the same results from the same actions and reactions.

To be fair, I suspect Big Mick is not being purposely dismissive. 'Tain't his nature. I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 01:52 PM

[pedant break]

trite
adj., trit·er, trit·est.
1. Lacking power to evoke interest through overuse or repetition; hackneyed.
2. Archaic. Frayed or worn out by use.
[Latin tritus, from past participle of terere, to wear out.]

Trite does not mean "not true." Generally, true statements, especially those which most people agree with, tend to be "trite."

Don Firth

[/pedant break]

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 02:48 PM

Heh, Daylia, We sang that song in 'chorus' when I was in Junior High, back in th days when 'junior high' had nothing to do with pretsils... I still sing bits and pieces at times...

The closer we get to commitment to war, the more Bush looks like a bad idea... even to conservatives. His threats and postures keep us in line, but as soon as he steps over it, his shameful lack of clothing will be starkly obvious to all onlookers... (like it isn't already...) ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 03:05 PM

They're rioting in Africa
They're starving in Spain
There's hurricanes in Florida
And Texas needs rain.
The whole world is festering with
Unhappy souls,
The French hate the Germans
The Germans hate the Poles
Italians hate Yudoslavs
South Africans hate the Dutch,
And I DON'T LIKE ANYBODY VERY MUCH.

There's rioting in Africa
There's strikes in Iran
What nature doesn't do to us
Will be done by our fellow man.

But, we can be thankful and tranquil and proud
For mans been endowed with a mushroom shaped cloud
And we know for certain that some lovely day
Someone will set the spark off,
AND WE WILL ALL BE BLOWN AWAY.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 03:09 PM

'hackneyed', Don, is the use I'm thinkin'. Or 'simplistic' or 'over-obvious' or just plain DUH

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 04:03 PM

Well put, day-liah.

Yes, Bobert we are at the possible brink of a 3rd World War, simply because the USA is conducting a worldwide policy of such blind hubris and utter unreality that I have seen nothing in history to match it since the "glory days" of the 3rd Reich in the late 30's actually managing to convince its population that Poland was a threat to Germany, and that Poland had attacked Germany first!

It's that unreal. Most Americans don't see it, because they live in a self-created media bubble. Everyone else around the world sees it, but they don't know what to do about it, because they are not armed like the USA is. It is the USA whose weapons of mass destruction terrify the entire world.

In just this same way, everyone but the Germans could see what was afoot in the late 30's, but they simply didn't know what to do about it.

To you Americans who will certainly disagree with my assessment, I say: fine. I know you are good people with your own understanding of what is going on. So were most Germans good people in 1939. And they were brave and patriotic too, just like you...but their government was wrong. (Let me remind you that it was almost certainly anti-Nazi terrorists who blew up the Hindenburg Zeppelin...although the Nazis chose to look upon it officially as an "accident"...for their own propaganda reasons. That was the well-planned WTC attack of its day. That and the burning of the Reichstag...arranged secretly by the Nazis and blamed on "Communists" in order to allow Hitler to panic the German population into granting him emergency powers which were never rescinded.)

If there is a major war, it will start with local conflicts in small countries, which will have unforeseen consequences...and will spread and involve more countries. It will then inexorably draw in larger powers, such as India, Russia, China, and Western Europe...as they see their own crucial strategic interests threatened. The nuclear genie will come out of the bottle. Only where and when, is the question...

And it may end with most of the world (most notably, China) fighting the USA, just as most of the world was fighting Germany by 1943. It may take them a few years to prepare in that case, but they will do it if they feel they have to.

Whether or not the USA "wins" this war, it will be an utter disaster for the whole world.

I hope none of this happens. I hope Bush abandons his war plans. Canada is too damned close to the USA. I may just move to Trinidad...

I wouldn't dare move to Cuba (though it's a great place). I figure the USA will find some excuse sooner or later to invade them or destroy them...that's why. The USA is unlikely to invade Trinidad.

I met not one person in Trinidad who thinks there is any sane or justifiable reason for an American attack on Iraq. Not one. There is much concern about war there, and the general opinion is that America is behaving in an irrational and potentially disastrous fashion, in terms of the real interests of the entire human race.

You know, people can honestly be wrong and never see it.

Day-liah is right, in the simple truth she stated. There is no justification for planning wars on our fellow human beings when there are other alternatives, and there always are other alternatives.

Even once a war is underway, it is always possible to negotiate and stop it. If you care to, that is...

But if you seek only victory, well, that's another matter. Victory over whom? There is only ONE human race on this planet.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: DougR
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 04:10 PM

Geeze. Most of you folks are are great crepe hangers. I agree with Amos though. I think we are already in a World War. The terrorists are the enemy though, not our government as so many of you wish to believe. The terrorist threat is a world-wide one, as has already been evidenced. It's a shame that our leaders didn't recognize the threat for what it was many years ago. Perhaps it could have been nipped in the bud.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: *daylia*
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 05:02 PM

"The terrorists are the enemy though, not our government as so many of you wish to believe"

When you point your finger at someone else, there's always three more pointing right back at YOU.

If it weren't for American/European interference and megalomaniac attempts to control the Middle East (and 'all the riches buried there' - as the song goes) for at least the last 5 decades, Sept 11 would NEVER have happened and the current situation would NOT exist today. The terrorists - and their weapons - are a direct result of 'our' own greed and violence in countries where WE HAVE NO BUSINESS (except the business of economic and political exploitation and domination).

I agree with Little Hawk. I mean no offense to the American people, or any individual Americans - but their government's foreign policies (and I don't mean just the current gov't, although it's probably the worst one yet) has brought this on themselves.

I'm ashamed that my own gov't just follows Bush's lead, like a bunch of rats following an insane 'Pied Piper'. And I really resent being dragged into their never-ending bloody attempts at world domination.

"Living next to the United States is in some ways like sleeping with an elephant. No matter how friendly and even-tempered the beast, one is affected by every twitch and grunt."
            
                  -Pierre Elliot Trudeau - (former Canadian PM)

"Canada and Mexico, as the saying goes, have one common problem BETWEEN them".

                  - J.C.M. Oglesby - (Canadian historian)

Enough already. I'll get back to practicing love-thy-neighbour now. Sorry about the lapse.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 05:19 PM

An attack on Iraq won't be an attack on "terrorism". There is no evidence whatsoever that Iraq had anything to do with the events of September 11th in New York and Washington, or the events of November 12th in Bali and so on and so forth. Like many countries, including Britain, the United States, Russia and Israel (for starters) the government in Iraq has been guilty of actions which can very properly be described as "terrorist", but that is another matter.

So far no convincing evidence has been produced that Iraq currently possesses weapons of mass destruction, or has any ability or wish to use such weapons against other countries.

Talking about this as if it were part of "a war against terrorism" is poppycock. What it is is, a cynical determination to use the widespread revulsion against these appalling atrocities as a lever to enable those in power in Washington to carry out an attack on a relatively very much weaker country which was already on the agenda, for reasons which have nothing to do with "a war against terrorism", and a lot to do with controlling that part of the world, and ensuring that its natural resources are available.

And that is what I mean, Amos, by classing it as a latter-day example of a classical "colonial war" (which were often against extremely unpleasant regimes) rather than as comparable to the World Wars. The essential thing about those is that they were in some sense wars between equals, and at this stage that is the last thing that can be said about what is in front of us.

In the longer run one of the consequences of what happens could well be to change that, and that is really frightening. And that I believe is the game plan of those who set things in motion on September 11th - and they are winning. In which case it will retrospectivey be possible to define that as the opening salvoes in a Third World War.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 06:01 PM

Little Hawk, a couple of people here, including myself, have tried to point out the similarities you point out—including the wording of the Patriot Act and stipulations of the Homeland Security Act, parts of which are disturbingly similar to what newly elected Chancellor Hitler got President Paul von Hindenberg to sign off on in 1933—and got shat upon for being negativistic and dismal, if not downright paranoid. After all, "this is AMERICA! It can't happen here!!"

Well . . . maybe not. But Bush, Ashcroft, Poindexter, et al, have opened the door.

I'm forced to agree with what you just said. The parallels should be obvious to anyone with two brain cells to rub together. But I suggest you put on your boots and open your umbrella, 'cause you're probably in for a deluge.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 06:03 PM

I sure do appreciate hearing veiws and gaining perspectives from outside the US... It seems the dark forces have the media all sewn up here in the states... It's all show business, untill shots are fired... and then it's business of a deadly serious nature.

"...Brought to you by,... the commercial interests of a few people who will undoubtedly see no action in any war whatsoever"... but will stand to profit beyond your wildest dreams... ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 07:01 PM

Yeah, guys. I don't intend to spend too much more of my time and energy stating here things that are so obvious to most of the world that they hardly need to be said. Neither would I have wasted much time discussing the merits of human compassion and mercy with Hitler, Goebbles, and Goering as they set out to "save" the World from the so-called international Jewish-Communist conspiracy they dreamed up (and fervently believed in!).

The War On Terrorism is just as phony as that was. It's a scam. Your North American TV commentaries on the world situation are a sad joke, believable only on their own turf, outrageous outside of it. America is the most feared nation on Earth.

I hope I am still alive to help pick up the pieces after it's over, but if I'm not, well, my soul will be doing just fine.

Let me wish you all good luck and peace and prosperity, wherever you may be living. Work for peace if you can. That's my advice.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 10:04 PM

Someone (Mary McGrory? Molly Ivins? Helen Thomas? I think it was Thomas.) wrote that when Bush said 'We may have to make war in order to preserve peace', that was not only evocative of '1984', but lifted straight out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Troll
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 10:25 PM

It's so nice to know that some people have sources of intelligence that reliably inform them of the actual situation- political, social, and military- in countries like Iraq and North Korea, especially since these sources do not seem to be available to the American or British Governments.
I'm speaking, of course, about statments decrying the idea that Iraq has WMDs or sponsors terrorism. They speak as though this is common knowledge, yet the governments of the two countries who- in their eyes at least- seem hell-bent on war do not!
If you have this information in hard, solid form, and from the certainty of your statments you surely must, sahre it with your respective governments! Publish it on the internet. Send it to your representatives. Alert the media that YOU have the PROOF that is needed to halt Armageddon.
Or shut up.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Troll
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 10:35 PM

Please understand that, in my preceeding post, I was not denigrating ANYONES right to protest the possibility of war.
My argument is with those who make "everyone knows" claims when everyone actually knows no such thing.
"Everyone hopes" is
NOT the same thing.
Until you can bring proof to the table, wishing doesn't make it so. The Government, ladies and gentlemen has sources that we aren't privy to and it is just possible that Bush and Blair know things we don't.
So protest their actions, but don't assume divine guidence because your cause is just and pure.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 06:58 AM

We are not at the doorstep of WW III ! We are standing by the hall closet choosing a hanger for our coat.

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 08:22 AM

Troll, I can bring as much proof to the table as Bush and his henchmen can.

Jr. will have his war no matter what. How the hell does he expect Iraq to prove a negative? How can they prove they DONT have WMD?

N. Korea is a far greATER threat thAn Iraq, we KNOW they have nuclear weapons, and that they hate us enough to use them. Their leader is as crazy as a shithouse rat. Man, what a world we have invented, a whacko in N. Korea, a slimebag dictator Iraq and a sociopath here.

LH, you are right on the money; sure you didn't vote for Bush, but, guess what? NEITHER DID I!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 08:35 AM

The trouble is, I don't believe or trust these people.

We keep on being told "how can you believe Saddam Hussein with his record of lying" - and that's true enough of him, but it's also true of our own governments, both historically, and as regards the individuals concerned.

They won't produce the evidence on which their judgements are said to be based. The reports which have been released are full of holes and evasions and ambiguities. So it has to be down to trust - and there's no adequate grounds for that trust.

If the UN inspectors report that they have found convincing evidence of weapons of mass destruction being stored and deployed, that's one thing. But it hasn't happened yet - and it is noteworthy that there are already efforts in the US media anyway seeking to discredit the UN inspectors, in preparation, it seems likely, to disregarding what they report.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 08:59 AM

As for Bush and voting - remember most Americans didn't vote for anyone, more Americans voted for Gore (and of course if there were world elections for who should be in charge of the future of the planet his vote...) Not an overwhelming mandate for anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 10:05 AM

McGrath:

I agree with you, my friend.

Pick just about any issue and you will find the same policy by Bush and Co. LIES! Nothing but LIES! Told often and told LOUDLY.

Any issue. Education. Welfare. The economy. Foreiegn policy>

LIES, LIES and more LIES.

The real "axis of evil" is BUSH, CHENEY and RUMSFIELD!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 10:35 AM

Bobert? Do you really think Clinton was any better? Different yes...but all he was was just another flavour of evil. How about making China, with it's atrocious human rights violations, *permanent* "Most favored Nation" status? How about the fact that he was directing our eyes to Iraq that summer when the heat was first turned on him over the sex scandal? Doesn't anyone remember that? He's *no* different than Bush...he'd have gone to war if not for a little blue dress.   

They are *all* in someones pocket. They all bow to some sort of greed, whether it be monitary, power or both. Politicians all suck, and I am afraid we are running out of statesmen rather fast the world over.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: allanwill
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 10:42 AM

Well. it seems that at least in Kenya, the overthrow of a "dictatorial" government has been achieved comparitively peacefully and legally through a democratic vote.

Allan

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 11:29 AM

I didn't notice anyone saying anything favourable about Clinton. If someone pointed out that smoking is bad for the health what relevance would it be, for example, to point out that eating junk food is bad for you too?

Bush and Clinton have both been very bad for the political health of the country that was entrusted to them (though "entrusted" is perhaps not the word for for what happened in November and December 2000. That'd be a bit like saying you were "entrusted" with someone's watch because you stole it off them.)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Troll
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 11:42 AM

Kendall, if you've got the goods, trot 'em out. Otherwise...
Bobert, how do you manage it? Post after post with nothing of substance said. This time you used 55 words to churn out the same tired rant with, as usual, no proof save your own predjudice.
You are in danger of becoming the noise that you make.
As I said before, if you've got it, put it on the table.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 12:07 PM

The burden of proof lies with the prosecution for a very good reason. Proving a negative is in many cases impossible.

I mean, how would any of us go about proving that we haven't got a store of mass destruction weapons hidden somewhere? We might succeed in suggesting convincingly that there is very little likelihood of that being the case - but proving beyond a shadow of doubt, that is something else.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: *daylia*
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 12:44 PM

Troll said "...Alert the media YOU have the PROOF that is needed to stop Armageddon. Or shut up".

Even if such 'proof' were presented, do you really think Bush and his cohort would stop trying to start a war with Iraq? I think not! My guess is that the 'presenter' would be 'shut up' pretty quick. Maybe shipped off to another country to be tortured for treason.

Forgive my sarcasm, but war IS the good old American way, after all. Americans have the highest homicide rate in the world, and they defend their 'right' to tote guns in their very constitution. American history is just one bloody conquest after another - great for the economy, for national pride and solidarity, so who cares about the rest of the planet and it's population?!? If it wasn't Iraq, it would be somewhere else that is the target of American violence and greed right now.

Last year I recieved a lesson about the PURPOSE of aggression and violence (something which I'd never understood) that I'll won't forget. I was visiting beautiful Springwater Provincial Park near my home in Ontario, where injured wildlife are housed and cared for. I was admiring a mother swan and her new cygnets. I couldn't see them very well, and the park was empty of other visitors that day, so I stepped over the outer fence of the enclosure and walked around to where my view was less obstructed.

I was standing about two feet away from them when suddenly the big male appeared, and he was sure not pleased with me! He started hissing and lunging at me - believe me I was VERY grateful for that inner fence or he'd have torn me to shreds!! I felt pretty stupid about invading their boundaries and upsetting them so, and I backed off.

I remember walking away thinking - now that's the ONLY justifiable reason for male aggression and violence. To protect the vulnerable females and the young against predators and invaders, to defend the boundaries of personal 'space',thus ensuring the survival of the species.

Too bad human beings have forgotten the 'wisdom' of the so-called "lower forms of life". I think that beautiful male swan has a few lessons for good ole George Bush!! And all the other warmongers on this planet today!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 01:17 PM

Troll, I was being obtuse. What I was saying is: I have no proof that Iraq has NO wmd, and, Bush has no proof that that they do. You knew that, right? come on, fess up.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 01:37 PM

I believe that we are in danger of a shooting WWIII. There is an attitude that prevails in this country that if we just blow dictators away after setting them up, all will be solved. The US set up Hitler as a deterrant from Communism, Noriega from Allende Socialists, Death Squads in Central America against "communistic" influences, The Taliban in Afghanistan as a deterrant against the Soviet Union (of which bin Laden was a part), Hussein as a deterrant against Iran or for that matter, the Shah of Iran against the Iranian people. How can we preach democracy abroad with this kind of track record? And how can we ram it down the throats of everyone else with bombs and guns by blowing 'em away? It's a kind of madness that's unfathomable.

We need more Camp David Peace Accords, more UN involvement, more respect for the international community such as Courts at the Hague.
Also, support for treaties on the environment such as the problem of global warming, human rights, women's rights (we could use a conference here as well as abroad) a bevy of anthropologists rather than military strategists with their eyes on the profits of the Golden Triangle.

Might doesnt make right not matter how you cut it.

That's my emotional rant for today. Thanks for putting up with it.

As for "facts", all kinds are being made up today.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: kendall
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 08:10 AM

We set up Hitler? How?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 10:55 AM

Frank:

I'd be highly interested to see how "we" set Hitler up as a defense against Communism. There was very little national concern about communism before 1939, as a major political issue. As far as I recall history, it was the advances the USSR made during and after the war -- for example, into then-Persia--plus their intransigence on the issue of atomic capabilities -- that began to raise the spectre of a Communist threat. While it is true that Time magazine named Hitler as Man of the Year, they had reasonable grounds for doing so. And it was after he was already in power.

Dayliah, you might want to discriminate between the times that the US fought in order to oppose oppression of various kinds, and the times it fought for less worthy purposes. The willingness to fight is not of itself wrong. We clearly demonstrated a lack of willingness to fight in 1938 and 1939, and the result was thousands of British and French and Polish and Jewish deaths during the ruthless expansion of the mighty Reich -- remember? By the time the US finally committed itself, concentration camps were a fact of life.

There is no question that there have been American psychos, and instances of American force being used badly. When the chips are down, and people accustomed to freedom are facing the prospect of being overwhelmed by force and violence, the ability to stand up and say "no" backed by sticks of the correct proportion suddenly becomes very valuable. While I appreciate that violence of any kind is to be shunned, as long as possible, the lesson of your swan also makes clear that we aren't on a planet where passivity alone can prosper. Not yet, anyway. We're obviously working on it!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: GUEST,daylia
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 12:36 PM

Amos you're absolutely right. Sorry about my rant - it in no way presents the total picture. I'm influenced by years of studying the work of Canadian sociologists (who are very fond of pointing out the more 'violent' nature of American history and behavior, as compared with Canadian - and presenting the usual questionable statistics to 'prove' it. Although the statistics on homicides are quite 'objective' and easily verifiable imo).

The prospect of war with Iraq fills me with fear and anger and despair and I'm not at my best when scared, angry or depressed. Sorry if I pointed the finger - I know there's three pointing directly back at ME.

Peace and hope

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 12:49 PM

Well said, Frank! US foriegn policy has been destabilising regions for years, and under the
guise of 'spreading democracy'... heck, we didn't really elect our pres and the boys he runs
with have 'hunta' written all over them... Maybe we should just have Ollie for our foriegn
policy adminitrator... Set em up, suck em dry, and then blame em for the chaos that ensues when the puppets dance...

What strikes me these days, is how tame the mudcat is about all this... maybe it's our
detatched historical perspective... but if ya listen to the young and restless... to the focused
and informed, to the cutting edge of the mainstream intelligencia, people are getting seriously
pissed off about criminally motivated and despotic entrapment...

Oh, and by the way Troll, Bobert's pedant (once said to be 'pompous') radical rant is at
least as refreshing, as the wet blanket of your cynical conservatism...

I'd say, we're at the doorstep of cutting the strings off our own puppet dictator... ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 12:53 PM

Found this interesting quote within a quote today. It describes the US in a nutshell right now:

"It's not difficult to find rationales for writing off just about any opponents of current war plans. Paul Rogat Loeb, author of "Soul of a Citizen, " has pointed out the predictable result is an insidious cynicism that short- circuits genuine debate: "Ordinary citizens can't speak up because they don't know enough; young people are dismissed as naive; older people we're told are trying to relive the '60s; academics are just eggheads; religious people are unrealistic; immigrants are suspects; celebrities are airheads and so on." "

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 12:54 PM

Kendall,

Early days before the war when the Hindenburg was floating over our land, The Bank of America bankrolled some of Hitler's enterprises. Also, Lindburgh was a fan of the facists. The German Bund was active in the country as well. I think we might have helped Krupp and Farben who eventually went on to produce such items for Germany such as the gas chambers. Only later on, as in the case with all the gangsters we support, did we find out who they really are. You probably remember "Uncle Joe".

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 12:58 PM

Amos,
There was concern about the Bolsheviks before 1939. It wasn't as pronounced publicly as later but not everyone by any means was in favor of the Revolution in Russia.
Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 01:12 PM

Frank:

I agree there was concern before the war. I don't hink it was sufficient to justify the argument that we "set up" Hitler, although it is true that before his invasion of Austria he was probably considered to be a slightly weird but legitimate member of the Western leader's Club. It took as much too long to realize what we were dealing with, I think, and until we did there were probably all kinds of inaccurate impressions and people acting on them, trying to keep international relations on a business footing. In fact there was a book I remember seeing from those prewar years called "You Can't Do Business With Hitler", an artifact from the dawning realization that he was a complete psycho.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 01:19 PM

Why, thankee, ttr. What a kind thing to say.

Now, troll, I think if you were to take the contents of my body of posting here at Mudcat, you'd find that I have provided more substance in putting forth peacefull thoughts that the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield PR folks have provided in making a case for attacking Iraq, North Korea or anyone else for that matter.

Yeah, sometimes I do paint with a big brush but I'm at least telling the truth.

BTW, there is a nice article on the front page of the Washington Post today entitled "U.S. Had Key Role in Iraq Buildup" which goes into some detail in describing just what a lieing hypocrit Donnie "Never-met-a-war-I-didn't-like" Rumsfield. Yeah, he's going around trying to sell people on a Iraq Attack by stating that "Saddam gassed his own people!" (Oh, that's so, so bad, Bobert. Bad...)

But what Rumsey doesn't tell the people is that he was in bed with Saddam at the time, furnishing Iraq with chemical weapons (including anthrax) and most everything that Bush now says Saddam shouldn't have. Hmmmmmmmm? He also conviently leaves out that Saddam had allready used chemical weapons before Reagun and Rumsey got so chummy and restored full diplomatic relations and din't make any stink 3 years later when Saddam gassed the Kurdish rebels. No stink at all. Oh, BTW, during this time the U.S. was furnishing "battlefielf intellegence" to Saddam! Go figure?

So, yeah, troll when the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield co-consipirators get up on their soapboxes with their tax-payer paid for PR "Saddam did this and Saddam did that" crap, their not telling the whole story makes 'em all a bunch of LIARS. Don't like the word. Well, tell 'em to quit LIEING and quit call 'em for it! Deal?

www.washingtonpost.com

And you can try to trivialize my posting, that's your right, but it doesn't make you right.

Pompous Peacenic

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 03:40 PM

I'm really not sure that one can rightly say that the United States "set up" Hitler, but there was certainly a great deal of apathy and indifference, not to mention self-serving, as the Third Reich was being hatched. At the time, there were many anti-communist Americans who would have embrace Beelzebub himself if he were also anti-communist, so they tended to ignore some of Hitler's little peculiarities. I was too young to really know what was going on, but I remember hearing some discussions on the radio about Hitler in the late Thirties, and I remember that there were many Americans who thought Hitler was an excellent national leader and a pretty fine fellow. Some didn't like him much, and a few saw him for what he was, but for the most part, their warnings were ignored.

The United States did have a cordial relationship with Hitler, including the Reciprocal Trade Agreements Act of 1934. This was finally broken in 1938, just after Kristallnacht and several other blatant violations of human rights—much to the protest of American business. At the same time, the American ambassador was recalled, but diplomatic relations were not severed. By that time, it was getting pretty clear what Hitler was, but that didn't stop people from doing business with him, and he did have a lot of support in this country. The German-American Bund, for example.

The book, You Can't Do Business with Hitler: What a Nazi Victory Would Mean to Every American, by Douglas Miller, Little Brown & Co, Boston, was first published in 1941. By that time, it was pretty hard to deny that the Third Reich was not exactly all sweetness and light. It was followed by a radio program entitled "You Can't Do Business with Hitler," but this program didn't start airing until 1942, well into the war by then.

To get an idea of some of the stuff that was going on in the United States in the Thirties, take a look at THIS.

Read the whole thing. And try not to gag.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: DougR
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 04:01 PM

Bobert: I'm sure you are telling the truth "as you see it."

Troll: Facts are not a prerequisite to criticizm. Even if these folks (the Pacifists) had the evidence Bush, I believe most certainly has, they would not (1) believe it (2) stop bitching.

They are confirmed cynics. It is their life; their sustanence; they cannot be any other way.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 04:50 PM

Hi Don and Amos,

My point is that there were interests in this country who supported Hitler and saw that as a deterrant to Bolshevism. That's what I mean by "set up". I don't think the whole country was aware of Hitler as they were not aware of the Mujahadeem in Afghanistan,The Shah of Iran, Chiang Kai Chek, Noriega, Hussein or Stalin. They certainly didn't know about Stalin. Most Americans are usually asleep during these times and leave matters like this to the CIA, FBI or other government agencies. This appears to be one of these times inasmuch as there are too many people who want to go to war with too little facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 04:58 PM

There's a difference between cynic and a sceptic. A sceptic wants evidence before they believe something, a cynic doesn't want evidence and won't entertain it.

A cynic is an inverted true believer.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: DougR
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 06:44 PM

And you, McGrath, view yourself as a skeptic, I assume?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Neighmond
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 07:34 PM

America is in grave danger.

This situation does not look destined to change any time soon.

The powers that be (such as they be) are itching to pick a fight with peoples that might or might not be up to anything unplesant, while all the while in our own back yard children go to bed with empty bellies, old folks die in their beds and chairs for lack of decent medical provisions, and the majority are cheerfully bidding their constitutional rights good-bye. How in the hell we ever got into such a sorry pickle is beyond me.

Bush is distracting the public from his misdeeds by rattling sabers, just like Slick Willie Clinton and George H. and Reagan, too.

If we do go to all-out war, rest assured; some government rascalty will come to light soon enough.

I am still of the opinion that Americans need to wake up
rise up
shape up
or we'll sone enough be
BLOWN UP!
For whatever it's worth.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 08:31 PM

Amen...

Resist...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 08:38 PM

I do Doug. Sceptical about the ability or willingness of both Bush and Saddam to tell the truth. (And Blair also, but that goes without saying.)

And I'd suggest that in relation to all this Bush is a cynic rather than a sceptic.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 08:46 PM

DougR:

I have asked you this before, and maybe your answer was just too incredible for me to remember.

On what do you base your faith that there is "evidence Bush, I believe most certainly has"?. Your certainty is impressive if it is based on facts or rational extrapolation from real data; if it is not, your faith is as bewildering as the cynicism you accuse others.   Why DO you assume Bush has hard data he has chosen not to reveal or even describe?

A

Subject: RE: : Is World War III at our door ?
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 09:00 PM

There are enough other nuclear countries that may deem it nessesary to punish the US for the indescriminate use of nuclear weapons. Particularly those that are down wind.

If things get too hot, cooler heads may prevail deep within the CIA and an assination similar to JFK will occur in an attempt to honor a deal/threat from foreign nuclear powers that be. It is doubtful however since the prez is the son of the former director of the CIA. Still as a sacrifice, it would be easier for George Herbert Walker Bush to bear than losing , say... thier one intelligent son Jeb.

Now lets imagine the head comes of the chicken and daddy Bush dies from a stroke, W goes ballistic, and the Cheney shadow government assumes command to over ride the duly court selected president...

I'm just saying their are more scenarios than we can imagine in a nuclear stakes game.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 09:30 PM

An economic consequence of war is run away inflation. If any of you have a million dollars it could be worth only 20,000 in dire war time. Only billionaires will be left unscathed and may even profit.

Hedges against war time inflation is a risky matter and I would not presume to offer any advice to counter its effects.

Some fortunes on paper could be lost with one electro magnetic pulse.
On the street, more people will try to stay liquid with the use of a gun.

At this late date, there really is no rally or demonstration that will deter the poised armed forces from marching into oblivion.
There is no assasination that would change the course designed by US right wing think tanks. As in the American civil war the tactics are far behind the weapons - much to the world's despair.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 09:55 PM

Donuel:

Hey, my friend, I suggested such a scenerio on another thread but Kat told me not to talk about a situation where the ruling class just says, "Screw it! That's just enought democracy!" and pulls the plug on future elections...

Don't think it can happen, folks other than Donuel and me, think again! The blueprints have been around for 3 decades now just waitin' fir the right set of circumstances...

We now have a *facist dream* when it come to circumstance...

Yeah, we know who killed the Kennedys. We know who killed Martin Luther King. CIA! And now they have all the planets lined up to just say "Screw Democracy" anytime they want to.

Joe Six-Pack will help 'em! Hate this race. Hate... Violence... Hate.... Violence.... Hate... Violence...

I'm RESISTIN" myself, folks...

Screw the facists...

Peace thru Resistence...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 10:19 PM

Peace through Awareness, Awareness through Peace... and don't you forget it Bobert! Speak softly but carry a big brain...;^) ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 11:51 AM

Peace through resistence and peace through the pocketbook.
Hell no, we won't pay...
File for tax extensions for the next 2 years.

A $60 billion war sounds conservative but that sounds like a year or two of profit margin for the oil companies. Perhaps they should pay if they are the ones that will profit most.

The last Gulf war was an oil war justified with totally falacious propoganda such as babies being hurled from incubators.

We sure have a better reason to mobilize this time. Even better than the sinking of the Maine, the Reichstad fire, Pearl Harbor or an alleged threat against daddy Bush.

I do not buy into a single word of the UN resolution game.
Neither should you.
I think it was a last ditch effort by Powell to attempt an appearence of justification for Bush's blatant unilateral invasion policy.


It was asked "Have we the justification to start wars and bully the world, not recognize the World Court, not sign bio war peace treatys... etc."

Of course we do. The same justification and rationalization as every other empire of; Rome, Britain, Japan, Alexander the Great, Ghenges Kahn, Hitler, Stalin or even your smallest local corporation that has poisoned the air and water in your region with impunity.



KILL THE BUSH WARS

WE WON'T PAY

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 12:54 PM

I was always suspicious about that pretzel.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 01:17 PM

Three decades? Longer than that, Bobert. Germany in the Thirties.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 01:35 PM

Was it a pretzel, a shot of Bourbon or the tightly clenched hands of Colin Powell after he was called "boy".




combined from above posts:




So we are on the doorstep of WW III

SHUT THE FOLK UP

What right have you to talk?

No one may review what is happening now.

No one !

Ordinary citizens can't speak up because they don't know enough;
young people are dismissed as naive;
older people are told they are trying to relive the '60s;
academics are just eggheads;
religious people are unrealistic;
immigrants are suspects;
celebrities are airheads and so on.

Who can speak?

"Lets leave it to the brass..."
this I heard as a response to the Viet Nam War
nearly every day it raged.

To save the world from a coming holocaust
WE need some no nonsense words.
I have four for you
Try them on , use them, write them, pass it on.
You will find people will smile and laugh
but the meaning is not lost on anyone.
they are:

KILL THE BUSH WARS

in context: Happy New Year, Kill the bush wars

Now if 4 words are too many
how about 3?

STARVE THE KING

Filing tax extensions for 2 years
will carry hundreds in unpaid fines
but others have given their life
to escape from tryrants, monarchs and dynasties.

Is 3 words too many?
How about 2 ?

BUSH KILLS

When chanted it sounds good.

How about 1 word ?

DEMOCRACY.

I like 'Bring back Democracy'


..........................


Bush kills
Democracy

Kill the bush wars
Starve the king


(use em all or one at a time)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 01:53 PM

But first you need to define just what you mean by "democracy." These days, a "democracy" is a country in which the government can by just about anything from anarchy to an oppressive dictatorship, but it's friendly to American economic interests.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 01:54 PM

Something happening here
What it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun over there
Tellin' me a got to beware

It's time to stop, children
What's that sound
Everybody look what's going 'round

___________________________________

BRING BACK DEMOCRACY!

___________________________________

PEACE THRU RESISTENCE!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 03:34 PM

It seems to me that if we offer a consistent foreign policy, we might want to take the lead in diminishing our own nuclear bomb potential. It's really hard to selectively ask North Korea or Iraq to disarm when we are unwilling to do so ourselves and supporting India, Pakistan and other countries who are in the nuclear weapons game. A nuclear double standard.

The most sinister aspect of all of this is the hysteria which surrounds this war effort. It is being promoted by the present administration. No one can be rational when in the throes of fear.

Here's a kind of convoluted logic....fly with our airlines but watch out for terrorists. Go to shopping malls and spend money but watch out for bombs. It seems deja vu all over again with the word "terrorist" being substituted for "Red".

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: DougR
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 05:28 PM

Amos: ever occur to you that I find your skepticism as puzzeling as you find my optimism?

I don't believe that any American president, Democrat or Republican, Green or Yellow, would start a war simply because they want to.

I don't believe Bush is as stupid, dumb, or as callous as you and others obviously do.

My belief that Bush, and key administration officials have proof that Iraq has WMDs, and that Saddam would not hesitate to use them, is on as solid ground as those who think otherwise. Neither of us KNOWS for sure.

Hasn't Troll asked time after time for proof to back up statements by you and others that Bush is merely starting a war because he wants a war? There has been no proof offered by your side either!

I am confident, however, that before there is an invasion of Iraq or any other country, the American people, and the world, will be told the reason for it.

Acceptance by doubters is quite another thing.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 08:35 PM

I read 'Enough BUSH*T'

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Amos
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 10:50 PM

Well, my doubt is based on several identifiable things, one of which is that the man has a long history of falisfying reality in order to suit his own purposes; secondly, he has proudly asserted that he has grounds for war when any decent respect for the people would lead him to describe what those are. He has not done so. My opinion is, therefore, based on groundless pessimism. Like Bush's tirades concerning Saddam, it is based on track record.

I respect the fact that he is in a difficult position, and perhaps the ground truth is that he is doing as well as anyone could do, lies or no lies...but his apparent enthusiasm for vast military intervention in a premeditated fashion is against the grain of our best standards of conduct. He is asking people to accept on trust that he is not being a warmonger, simply a prudent warrior. I believe it is a charade, you believe it is an honest representation. Yet the facts behind his self-important decision are not communicated tot he people who are paying for his troops, planes, subs and tanks with their sweat. I consider this refusal to inform a democratic people both insulting and dictatorial.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: DougR
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 01:39 PM

Interesting post, Amos.

I was not aware that the invasion of Iraq had begun.

Why not wait until it does, and see if GWB provides a reason prior to the beginning of hostilities? If the Invasion begins without one, I will join you in criticizing the president.

I would, however, be interested in a more detailed explanation of "the man has a long history of falsifying reality." What lies are you referring to?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 02:20 PM

If we wait until he's already invaded before we speak up, metaphors about barn doors seem rather appropriate. So far Bush has not offered one scrap of evidence to indicate that Iraq has WMD's. Given that he is attempting to convince us that Iraq is so armed, it is suspicious that he gives no proof. This does not necessarily mean that he is lying, but it does mean that he does not think that the American people have a right to know why the government chooses to go to war. Even if he is not lying, I don't trust anyone who refuses to tell me why I should support him, but demands that I do.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Peg
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 03:19 PM

Oh I see! *Just before* we start bombing Iraq, Bush will tell us why!

The fact that tens of thousands of troops are now amassing there is, apparently, not sufficient justification for offering a goddamned REASON for invading this country which has no provable, discernible connection to the current "terrorism" threat, and which has every reason to expect that the US of A should disarm itself of all ITS nuclear, biological and chemical weapons before THEY do so.

It always made more sense to me that the most dangerous countries (read: US) should be the first ones to give up some of their firepower.

I agree with those who say North Korea is a much bigger problem at the moment; but they ain't got no oil and our European allies ain't interested in helping us fight them.

I also agree with those who can't understand why more people aren't outraged about this. Maybe they are paralyzed by fear? maybe they are willfully distracting themselves with shopping and movies?

Our economy is in a shambles and make no mistake it is gonna get a LOT worse before this wrong-headed "war effort" gets its sorry ass off the ground. I love Donuel's idea about tax resistance (he calls it filing for extensions). We need to stop funding the buildup of the war coffers! THAT is why our economy is so f*cked right now; Clinton, despite other aggressive foreign policy actions, made a lot of moves to disarm and lower spending on the nuclear and other arsenals; Bush is building them all up again. At least Clinton's economic legacy was positive. And he understood foreign policy; Bush cant even pronounce the names of most of the countries he wants to blow up.

Meanwhile, as we play games with bombs and planes and missiles ansd troops, here in the US of A, kids are starving, and medical care is insufficient for those who need it.

favorite dumbass Bush quote: "The trouble with the French is, they don't have a word for 'entrepreneur'."

peace to us all,
peg

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 03:26 PM

I think most people are enraged, Peg. It's just that we are now getting what we voted for. On both sides of the pond.

For what it's worth my answer to the original question is no. I am optomistic enough to believe that no-one is that daft!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 03:34 PM

There will be a march on Washington to protest the impending war on January 18, 2003.

The troops are building fast in the Persian Gulf as we write, if you can believe the news on the Fox network.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 03:40 PM

Ah, but, Frank, DougR doesn't believe ANYTHING they say on Fox...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 05:18 PM

Peg, last night I attended a meeting in a nearby church that drew an over-capacity crowd--spilling out into the street. It was sponsored by a coalition of peace groups. Several local politicians and one Congressman, who has been pretty high-profile of late, spoke. There was a lot of discussion about the the background of Bush's war, what's really going on in Washington, D.C., and how (if possible) the war can be stopped.

The press and the local television stations were notified of the meeting well in advance. They all declined to attend. Believe me, there are plenty of people who are outraged about this thing. But this is systematically not being covered in the news.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 06:12 PM

Normal, Don. The press didn't get on board until around 1973 during Vietnam. They are always the last to any party held by the working class and poor, who pay for and die in their wars. And, lets not remove the media from those who profit from war. Wars sell lots of Geritol and ant-acids. Lets also keep in mind that the media is owned by folks who feel more comfortable in their segregated country clubs than mixing with the rif-raf.

But good fir you and your folks out there. We've got a biggie comin' up in the 18th and I'll be there with my teenaged son and anyone else I can get to go.

And as fir the WMD that Bush keeps talkin' about I know exactly what he's gonna say. First of all he has all but said that Saddam doesn't have anything too bad since rather than give specifics he is trying to build a circumstantial arguement coupled with stupid stuff about material breechs. If Iraq's radar system tracks an F-16k, according to Bush, that is a material breech. Hey, that's been occuring for over 10 years. Big woop!

I mean, Bush paraded his evidence before the US's allies and afterwards, they yawned and, other than those folks who Bush really bullied, that said "pass".

But Bush is gonna show some pictures taken from satalites or recdon planes and none of them are goinna show a danged thing but some general is gonna get up and say that there is a degree of probability that these pictures might implicate Saddam. Then Bush is going to drag out that tired line that goes along the lines of "Do we have to wait until the nuclear bomb has been dropped on us before we believe" (That line cost the American working people several million dollars of hard earned tax money in PR.) The it woof-woof this and woof-woof that and then next thing ya' know the US will make its largest and most immoral foriegn policy decision in its history!

And this decision will be made by a man who stole an election and wouldn't know the *truth* if it bit him on his lieing, theivin' butt.

This is unreal! Totally Godless and unreal. Kicking folks butts just because you can is *NOT* a foriegn policy. It is a national sin against humanity. I have never been more ashamed of my government.

And no, Doug, the all out attack has not begun (though the US has been bombing Iraqi air defenses for a while now) but even if Saddam were to commit sucide tonight and no invasion occured, it makes Bush's foriegn olicy no less sinfull and embarrassing...

Peace thru Resistence.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: TIA
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 06:13 PM

Whole lot of talk above about how those who are against the war need to present proof that GWB doesn't have proof that Iraq has W's of MD. Wouldn't it be nice if those seeking to punish bore the burden of proof before punishment could be meted. Hmmm, I can recall living in a country like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 07:37 PM

". . .each snowflake is gentle and delicate, but together they can shut down a city. . . ."

THIS is what's going on around here. Follow some of the links. It's pretty big. And I can't help thinking that Seattle isn't the only place.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 07:40 PM

and I am afraid we are running out of statesmen rather fast the world over

Maybe you are. We still have Tony Blair, who is a fine man.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 07:56 PM

The thing is, every paper I read - and that includes the right wing ones - seems to take it as read that it is virtually certain that Bush is going to attack Iraq as soon as he has the forces in place to do so, regardless of what the evidence produced by the UN inspectors may say.

Whether the paper in question is in favour of war or against war, they all seem to agree on that.

Well, maybe they are wrong. Papers do get it wrong. I hope so. But to shrug it all off as idle gossip is a bit difficult.

There doesn't really seem any way out. If weapons are found, it means a material breach of the requirements, and the war starts. On the other hand, if no weapons are found, it means they are too well concealed, and that's a material breach as well, and the war starts. Catch 22.

"Infamy, Infamy, they've all got it in for me." It was Kenneth Williams said that as Julius Caesar. Maybe it could just as well have been George Bush.

When a big country goes to war against a small country it's generally because the head of the big country sees this as a way of avoiding some domestic problem, and gaining some kind of resource overseas. And it normally gets presented as an act of justified self defence.

Sooner or later the historians tend to sort out the truth, a good many years later. When it's too late really to make any difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: DougR
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 12:43 PM

Bobert: I'm sure the fact that you did not include in your post the fact that Allied planes were fired on by Iraqi defense forces in the "no fly zone" which resulted in the bombing. You are aware, I'm sure, that the "Zone" was established by the U. N. and was agreed to by Iraq, right?

Why is it that Iraq is never blamed for these things? It's always the U. S. or the British who are wrong, right?

McGrath: one could almost read your post to mean that if Iraq were of equal size to the U. S., things would be hunky dory. Is that what you meant?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 12:56 PM

It might not be hunky dory, but there'd be probably be no question of a war, any more than there was with the Soviet Union or China. A stand-off, with everyone holding their breath and crossing their fingers, but no actual war.

Except of course there was never a guy quite like Bush in the White House during the Cold War, or God knows what might have happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: NicoleC
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 01:36 PM

"You are aware, I'm sure, that the "Zone" was established by the U. N. and was agreed to by Iraq, right"

A popular idea, but flat out untrue, Doug. The US, UK, and France created the "No Fly" zone(s) claiming power under UN Resolution 688. The resolution clearly does not establish such powers for those 3 countries. France eventually withdrew. There are only 2 nations which enforce and even recognize the no fly zones, and especially not Iraq, and most of the world considers the zones illegal.

"No Fly" in this case means only Iraq can't fly there. The US and UK fly those zones which are located over huge portions of Iraq and drop bombs on a more or less regular basis. (Particularly under the Clinton administration.)

If a foreign and hostile country were to declare a no fly zone over say, Chicago, do you think our armed forces would respond to armed enemy planes in US airspace or not? Even if it were futile?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 04:12 PM

Doug:

And to add to what Nicole has just posted, Iraq's decade long firing at US planes without one single one being hit should be further evidence that the US is about to bully a nation which possesses not much more than a third rate military. Boy, now doesn't this make Junior look all brave. I mean 10 yeras of shooting and not even a lucky hit?

Just keep in mind, Doug, that those folks who sit back and parrot the lines that Junior's PR firm have put in his mouth, should be considered accomplaces when the murder begins. You may not have any realtionship with God and that's not my business but if you do then I would suggest you have a long talk with Him about your support for the murders that will be on your guy's hands and soul. And ya' might ven go as far as to ask Him what He thinks of folks, who like you, are buying these lies and standing behind this evil Godless man.

This is a biggie, Doug. This ain't about the economy. Or education. This one fall's into the murder category.

And I'm not going to respons to any "Saddam is bad, too" posts. Bad is bad and there's no excuse for it. Two wrongs don't make a right, my friend.

You still have a choice. Hey, no where is chizzeled in stone that you have to agree with absolutely every thing Bush does just because you happen to be a Republican... If Clinton were about to do this, I believe you'd be playing a different tune. Think about it!

Now, come on over here and get a big hug...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 04:34 PM

If nobody intervened after Iraq invaded Kuwait. Would oil still be over $30 a barrel?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Ed.
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 04:40 PM

Excellent Robert Fisk piece in today's Independent Newspaper

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 09:41 PM

The only dissent I hear on the US media are whispers

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: DougR
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 02:02 AM

Oh Bobert. There you go again. I'll remind you again, that we are not yet at war! Grab ahold of yourself man! You're going to drive yourself to distraction! There'll be plenty of time to rant and rave if and when the invasion begins.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 12:28 PM

So you're supposed to wait till the boot actually lands before you lift a finger to stop a bully kicking someone?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: DougR
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 03:16 PM

No Kendall, evidently, according to popular (read Mudcat) opinion, we are supposed to wait until Saddam's agents let loose smallpox virus on the population of Israel, Saudia Arabia, Great Britain, the U.S. or any of our other allies before we do anything.

Even then, we should just invite them in for a talk instead of protecting ourselves.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 09:40 PM

But it won't be Saddam's agents who do that, Doug...because Saddam is NOT the one who in any way wants or thinks he can profit from a war between the USA and Iraq. And it isn't Saddam who needs to panic the American population into supporting an insane foreign policy as well as accepting the abrogation of their Constitutional and their civil rights.

It wasn't the Poles who attacked that German radio station on the eve of World War II, and it wasn't Jews and Communists who burnt down the Reichstag. It was the Nazis themselves. Burned their own parliament building down, Doug, and blamed it on "the bad guys". And they thought they were saving civilization. And most of the German public believed them. But very few outside their borders did.

Remember that.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 03:42 PM

I am sorry, I haven't been reading this thread, but I did think it probably the most appropriate to post this to, which I found encouaraging:

Speaking of Foreign Secretary (UK) Jack Straw, Asked to comment on a statement that the odds of war with Iraq had slipped from 60-40 to 40-60, Straw told British Broadcasting Corp. radio that "I think that is a reasonably accurate description."

Straw said nothing specific had happened to make him shift his estimate of the chances of war, but said he was trying quell the notion in many newspaper reports that war was unavoidable.

I hope he is right, that it has shifted!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 04:00 PM

Me, too, Kat. Me, too. I do hold out a sliver of hope that Bush, for no other reason than the real possibility of lossing a war in Iraq, may be getting a tad fidgety. He must know that a *street fight* in Bagdad will insure his position as one of the worst, if not the worst presidents in history. (Look out Taft, Junior's got his eye on your claim to fame).

Plus, Bush can't possibly the fact that millions (yes, millions..) of people have mobilized around the world against an invasion of Iraq by the US and should it actually happen the resistence will make the Vietnam protests look like backyard BBQ's.

Peace thru Resistence.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 04:26 PM

So, if the inspection team comes back to the UN on 27th January and reports that it has found no evidence of any stockpiling of Weapons of Mass Destruction, or preparations for manufacturing them, and that the Iraqis have made no effort whatsoever to obstruct their inspections, which involved unannounced visits to all kind of places (and palaces), including those identified as suspicious by the USA and the UK ? What then? We can take it that there can be no attack on Iraq?

And can we also take it that, if any attack were made, this would be an act of aggression, such as is outlawed through the treaty which set up the United Nations, which the USA and the UK are pledged to maintain?

And can we agree any state carrying out such an act of aggression would by definition be a Rogue State. And of course everyone seems to agree that Rogue States cannot be allowed to hold on to Weapons of Mass Destruction.

Interesting times.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 04:38 PM

That's the way I read it, Kevin. We'll see. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 05:00 PM

Here's a link to an article in an English newspaper, publishing poll results that indicate that people here are overwhelmingly opposed to any war that isn't backed by the UN, and very pessimistic about its outcome.

"...only 28 per cent of people, scarcely more than a quarter, believe America would now "be justified in taking military action against Iraq".

More than twice that proportion, 58 per cent, believe there is no current justification for American action, with only 14 per cent on the fence..."

"...Only 15 per cent believe American military action would yield greater stability in the Middle East. Four times that proportion, 62 per cent, fear that it might lead to a wider regional war..."

No, the newspaper isn't the Guardian, Doug might be surprised to learn. It is the far right (by English standards) Daily Telegraph.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: GUEST,herc
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 05:04 PM

I haven't seenthe poll questions, but isn't it a fairly obvious result to reach before 1/27?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 05:19 PM

It is an interesting article in the Telegraph. But I have a question how I have to read this information under the title: Filed: 12/08/2002. Does this indicate how old the article is? If yes, is it from August or December (I don't know the British conventions)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 05:35 PM

You're right there Wolfgang - that Telegraph website fooled me, because the article was linked to from another one in today's paper, and the linked page still has today's date up the top. It was in fact from an article filed on 8th December, so it's a month old.

I'd suspect that if anything pubc opinion poll figures would be more sceptial about the war now, a month on.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 06:58 PM

Remember High Noon? Hey, Gee Whillikers identifies with that. We don't need no stinkin' allies. A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.... Hope I'm wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: TIA
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 07:34 PM

Alas Ebbie, I fear you're dead right. Oh my gosh, I truly didn't mean to use "dead". I wish you and everyone life.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 07:41 PM

McGrath it will lead to a wider war.
...................................


In the cold of men's hearts
The power of all that is good
can be concentrated
to create unspeakable evil

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/icefire1.jpg


When darkness comes
the winds of intolerance
fans the flames
across a beautiful land

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 08:16 PM

The wider war which was on the agenda of the architects of September 11th.

The only ones who can stop it are the American people. How many deaths will it take? How many Iraqi deaths?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 08:19 PM

The answer my friend is blowing in the wind, the answer is blowing in the wind.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 05:08 AM

No, McGrath. I've looked up the Telegraph's filing system by now, so I don't have to rely on your information:

The article is from August 2002, not from December.
Which, of course, doesn't make your guess on what the percentages might be now wrong.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 07:13 AM

I agree with Ed that the Robert Fisk article which he clickied is excellent.

Perle's gobbledegook also makes sense when you understand that what he means is "terrorism is the new Communism": i.e. you brand anything you don't like as terrorism and it's fair game for pursuit and repression without regard to the rule of law or human rights, and forge alliances with even the rottenest of regimes to achieve your objectives on the basis that the end justifies the means.

Coincidentally, a couple of weeks ago I picked up Philip Agee's 1975 "CIA diary" at a charity sale, and it's fascinating to see how relevant it still is when you substitute "terrorism" for "Communism". I'm not at all surprised to see NATO cosying up to the Algerian government.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 04:13 PM

Keven: I believe Iraq has yet to supply the UN with a complete list of their scientists that work in their weapons programs. If they don't they will have committed a material breach, and that in itself is enough to warrant a UN forces attack.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 09:52 PM

Enough according to the resolution, or enough to morally justify an assault? No reasonable person can claim that failure to provide a full list of names is just cause to launch a war that could kill hundreds of thousands. If we had proof that Iraq had and intended to use weapons of mass destruction, that would be good enough, but we don't. What we have is the the word of an insane dictator agaisnt the words of an idiot would-be dictator.