50th and last Sidmouth festival?

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 04 - 08:17 PM

A trust fund would be admninistered by trustees, who would by definition be unable to benefit financially.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Rasener
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:47 AM

Shambles
Why don't you try doing it and putting your money into it.

Strikes me there are a lot of whingers, who if things don't go the way they want, get on the band wagon. It's easy to moan, but it's not so easy to find people from these moaners who will get off there backsides and do it.

I think all the people who have kept the Sidmouth Festival going all these years deserve a big pat on the back. I doubt if anybody can ever repay them for the time, effort they have put into it and the pleasure that so many people have got from it.

The only issue here is where does the money come from to underwrite a WEATHER DISASTER. The organisers should not receive this money. It should be in a trust that will only pay out on proof of the loss caused by bad weather.

To some extent getting an acceptable amount of money to cover such a loss, would be a one off for next year. From then on, there should be a set amount of money from each future succesful year put into that trust, to make sure nothing like this happens again. I beleive it is called prudent accounting.

It should not be managed by anybody to do with the festival.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 May 04 - 02:00 AM

The nature of a private company is that it takes and faces risks. If you can reduce the risks directly presented to your company, it is good for your company. Taking everyone publicly with you to to the very brink, is perhaps a little more questionable for the good of your company - if you wish to be trusted in the future

Looking at it from the view of attendees, local business and the council - how could they ever be sure that this current threat and demand, will not be repeated, if the underwriting issue is solved?

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Rasener
Date: 12 May 04 - 02:31 AM

In my humble opinion, by keeping the money in a trust that is nothing to do with the private company. It must be totally isolated from the vent as such.

It should be legally set up, to only allow payout,if true evidence can be provided by the private organisers, that they have indeed suffered a very heavy loss caused purely through the weather.

Money should only be paid out for actual losses sustained i.e. Fixed Costs that must be met, not the profits that they might have expected if the event had been succesful.

I am sure this sort of trust would benefit most people in Sidmouth, who make a living from the spin off of such an event. Likewise these people would know that their money is safe and cannot just be creamed off by the organisers.

Quote
Looking at it from the view of attendees, local business and the council - how could they ever be sure that this current threat and demand, will not be repeated, if the underwriting issue is solved?
End of quote

You have to give it a try, after all you are calling their bluff. The money would be safe and they would never be allowed to touch it.

If their real intention is to stop the event anyway, there is nothing that anybody can do about that. But surely the flame will have been taken out of the fire, by an external trust, and they won't be able to argue that same point in the future.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 May 04 - 03:06 AM

Can I make it clear that when I talk of trust here, there is no suggestion on my part that the current organisers are trying, or would wish to touch any money that is not theirs.

It is clear that having no reason to doubt this - up to this point - many people (including me) do trust the current organisers to do the right thing for the good of the currently organised festival. What happens from this point oneward, will show whether that current trust is now misplaced.

It is clear from the Council's response to the PR that they were less than pleased at the position they were being placed in.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 May 04 - 03:39 AM

I'm a bear of very little brain... I could never understand why the Arena events are outdoors - yes, it's lovely in the sun, but hey, this is Britain! Why can't the area be covered by a marquee? And don't say there isn't one big enough - have you seen the ones they use at rock concerts, Parties in the Parks, and other festivals (Dranouter, in Belgium, has a concert marquee that would cover the Arena AND the craft market and still have room to spare for the kids events)?

Insurance - ALL insurance policies have exploded in the last 2-3 years, regardless of what you are insuring, it's not a great deal to do with Al Q'eeda, but more to do with the litigious society we are now entering into. When you can sue a "restaurant" for selling you a cup of hot coffee and not telling you it was hot, or that it would be stupid to put it between your legs whilst driving, then what do you expect?

And as for the locals - having lived in seaside/tourist towns and heritage villages, I've discovered something - the people who complain most about 'tourists' and events messing up their town, are usually the people who retired there after a lifetime of being those very tourists!

I hope the festival does continue, not least because it's usually the first festival most people see, but because it's also been the springboard for many performers and other festivals. But we have to be realistic - all you whingers here, would you be prepared to take it over?

LTS

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: fiddler
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:11 AM

Nice on Liz

I think perhaps it has been spotted now - the Festival 'customer' is not being held to ransome here but some political force - council business who by the sound of the press release have not put their money where their mouths currently are!

I got drunk (as you do at Sidmouth) with the manager of a well known hostelry one year who was adamant that 50% of his income / trade was taken over the festival week!

We now have tweo proposals on the table Liz's BIIGGG Tent ( I think the Areana holds over 3000 paying customers when full) and the Trust fund - any more - there are probably pros and cons to each. I can forward these to Mrs Casey if folk wish and see what their - Official or unofficial response might be - or even no repsonse.

Any more proposals?

Andy

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Rasener
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:12 AM

"But we have to be realistic - all you whingers here, would you be prepared to take it over?"

Nice one LTS

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: English Jon
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:30 AM

Sidmouth has 3 problems.

It's in the wrong place. It's a pain in the neck for most people to get to.

The weather is horrible. Every year. Move it somewhere warmer.

The campsite is bollocks. Who really wants to sleep at a 45 degree angle?

Broadstairs, which is a week later is always warm and sunny - still a pain to get to, but a damn sight nearer london than sidmouth. The campsite is flat. Broadstairs is getting bigger every year.

Don't mistake me, I love sidmouth festival to bits - but the place is rubbish. Oh yes, you can't park anywhere for love or money. At broadstairs, everywhere is walking distance from the campsite.

I really do think that a change of location could solve a lot of problems for sidmouth. There must be other festivals that run for a week and make a profit? Anyone know any figures for whitby?

Profit is important - Steve has to make a living - so do the artists that support festivals (and festivals support)

Cheers,

Jon Loomes

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:33 AM

I did stress that I thought the comments of the locals were false and I also know they are not representative and I agree with Liz that they are mostly of the retired brigade. I for one spent most of my dosh in the hostelries and eateries in town when I was there.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Beardy
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:59 AM

..and on Fat Bastard shirts!!

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 12 May 04 - 05:02 AM

Very true Stu I did purchase the Fat Bloke T Shirt there.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 May 04 - 05:06 AM

English Jon -

It is a pain in the neck to get to, but then so are most seaside towns in Britain, leastways, the ones that have retained their character and charm and not been swallowed up by a sprawling metropolis with funfairs, stinky arcades and night clubs. Whitby, if memory serves me right, is even hillier and more inconvenient to get to. I've never had trouble parking at Sidmouth, if I was prepared to pay my way (never more than £5) or walk more than 500 yards, considerably better odds and prices than London.

The campsite is at a strange angle, but that all depends on which way you pitch your tent. Personally, I found it drained the rainwater off nicely, prevented my feet swelling and stopped my friend snoring, which he does, loudly. There are worse places to pitch - some flat fields I've camped in were full of cow poo and thistles. If you are camping, you need to expect some privations, that's half the fun!

The world does not revolve around London. People can travel across country without touching London. People live in other towns than London. Why should being 'a damn sight nearer london' be a major factor in a festival. Whitby is even farther from London than Sidmouth. I don't want to get into a slanging match about the merits of living in London (I've been here 14 years and not found one yet), but you have to realise, that not all people who go to Sidmouth, come from London.


And as for the weather - to get any warmer you'd have to go up to Scotland for the Gulf Stream, or down to the Scilly Isles. There are very few places farther south than Sidmouth (Portland and the Lizzard spring to mind) and they are even more inaccessible.

One day, the good folk of Broadstairs and Whitby will turn around and say, 'we don't want this festival invading our lovely town every year, it's always raining and they park all over the place' - where will the festivals go then?

LTS

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST,Dan Abnormal
Date: 12 May 04 - 05:26 AM

Yes, there is a festival that is on as big a scale as Sidmouth, has sufficiant underwriting, has all the venues closer together etc. - its called Cambridge. The appeal of Sidmouth for many people is that it isn't like that and thats the point.

Being less flippant, Winnipeg folk festival in Canada is my idea of what sidmouth could be like if some of its problems were sorted out. The main arena fits ten thousand (yes, ten thousand people...) who turn out to see the headlining acts, running from James Taylor type crowd pullers to Oysterband who headlined a few years back. However, they also have 'In the tradition' type concerts and sessions, Songwriters circle events, and folk club-like venues. Everythings close together and they have more than enough camping space and parking.

Just a thought.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 May 04 - 05:40 AM

"But we have to be realistic - all you whingers here, would you be prepared to take it over?"

Perhaps it is not helpful or necessary to lump unspecified people together and call them names, just because you may not share their views? As this scatter-gun approach will only futher divide us all at this difficult time and only prove counter-productive.

To be realistic, if there is any whinging going on, it was started and contained in the Press Release that has caused all this augument........This was the rather sad and negative starting point, perhaps we can be more positive from this point onward?

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 12 May 04 - 05:45 AM

Never been to Sidmouth, much to my regret, but I can't resist making a couple of questions.

If you're running an event in England, isn't the probability of rain (not just the possibility) built into every damn thing?

Why does Sidmouth Folk Festival (which I understand is on the coast) have an address in Derbyshire (which I am well aware is not on the coast)? The distance might not be much to an Australian, but isn't it significant over there?

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: fiddler
Date: 12 May 04 - 05:49 AM

Crack on Shambles I often disagree with you but in this case I am 50% with you.

I think the original press release was a good one.

I think positive ideas are also good.

I could tak eissue with many of the statements in this thread but they are not relevant. Discuss yes, Ideas yes, whinging NO No No!

Andy

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 06:18 AM

Even if covering the Arena with some kind of temporary Millennium Dome may be possible, I think it'd be a real loss. Rain that's serious enough to make it impractical to use is pretty rare - 1997, when the whole week was almost drowned, was unusual enough to have gone down in folk memory.   I'm surprised that insuring against something as unusual as that is all that expensive.

What comes across to me from the press release is that the present organisers have got to the point where they want to pass the massive job off on to some other people, or at least pass off a major part of the responsibility and pressure. I don't blame them, and I hope they succeed, and that we get a continuing Sidmouth.

As for Sidmouth's supposed inaccessibility and parking problems, there's a good train service to Honiton, and a good bus service from there to Sidmouth, and taking a car to Sidmouth and expecting to drive around, leaving aside special circumstances, is a bit daft - for one thing, it messes up the drinking.

Broadstairs - I'd love to get there some time, but the fact that it's always scheduled to follow directly on Sidmouth has always stopped me, even though it's a lot closer. I'm too folked out to do straight on, and I know a lot of other people are as well.

Given the international side of Sidmouth, especially the way it's always brought dancers and musicians from the Eastern end of Europe, I wonder whether the organisers have tried to get financial backing from some European Union fund? I think the fact that Sidmouth has this firmly international side is important, and is a valuable balance to the way that most of our folk festivals are - innocently enough - much more geared to the traditions (and fashions) of the local nation or region.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST,Colin Cotter
Date: 12 May 04 - 06:36 AM

Sidmouth Festival would be a darn sight more pleasant if they just banned driving out of the campsite altogether (except obviously for special cases like wheelchair users etc). The bus is very good and reasonably priced, and the walk isn't that far (and much of the traffic on the bit of road with no path is people coming down from the campsite anyway). All those cars just churn up the campsite and turn it into a quagmire. You're in the country, what's the runs - get out and stretch your legs for a bit, you never know it might do you some good.

-cjc

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 06:37 AM

What's the runs?

I mean "What's the rush".

-cjc

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 May 04 - 06:52 AM

The Sidmouth campsite is for season ticket holders only and the season ticket serves as a free bus pass for the festival service. So there is no excuse whatsoever for using a vehicle around the town. Please don't argue "trips to Waitrose" because you could do that on the way in.

Why couldn't it be made a condition of campsite use that vehicles remain impounded, other than for emergency use, for the duration of the festival? Apart from making environmental sense, it might foster better relations with the indigenous population.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: DG&D Dave
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:00 AM

Hrothgar,
I agree with what you say about rain. Whilst I applaud Steve Heaps efforts in keeping the festival going, he did have about 5 years of superb weather prior to to wettest year ever (1997?). I would have hoped that financial losses due to bad weather can be ballanced with profits from the good years.

The address is in Derbyshire because steve moved there from Buckinghamshire (which is also a long way from Sidders) about 2 years ago. Steve organises events throughout the UK and Derbyshire is about as central as you can get. The festival office does move to Sidmouth the week before the festival.

Dave.

As I was going to Derby all on a market day.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: s&r
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:14 AM

Even if you roofed the Arena, wet weather would still be a disincentive to the many people who travel in to see Arena Events. Not many day visitors paying on the door would be inspired by the prospect of sitting in a tent while the rain beat down outside.

Most Festivals don't run at a profit - they make enough to cover costs (possibly with a subsidy or grant)and rely on unpaid enthusiasts for their planning and organisation. Festivals may be private limited companies as a sensible protection for the organising committee (Limited Liability)

Stu

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: fiddler
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:34 AM

OK I like the camp site traffic ban Idea but I don't think it would work.

You recall last year I banned traffic movement in the wet, at the start of the week, some still got upset.

The bus pass is separate to the season ticket unless, you are stewarding, but is good value for money and the busses are very frequent. You don't need a car in Sidmouth even with small children in tow.

A
X

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: JennyO
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:40 AM

the season ticket serves as a free bus pass for the festival service

Funny, nobody told us about a bus pass when we were there in 2001. We had to pay 60p every time we got on a shuttle bus. Has that changed now?

That was one of the things that annoyed me. You couldn't really choose to walk back to the campsite at night either, because if you did, you would be taking your life in your hands walking along the narrow road with nowhere to get off it as cars came sweeping round the blind bends.

Jenny

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:56 AM

No, Jenny. Seems I got it wrong (see Andy's explanation above). It only applies if you have a steward's badge apparently (not that many of the bus drivers recognise even that!). Even then, it only applies to the shuttle. An all-over-town bus pass (extending to Sidford and Salcombe) would be a good thing.

And I wholly agree with how dangerous those roads where the path runs out are at night.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:21 AM

If you wear something light and walk on the side facing the traffic, walking to the campsite is OK. At least I've never found a particular problem. Still, I'd love to see a ban on all but essential traffic on the road up to the camp after dark during the festival, and a glance at the map suggests it wouldn't be that hard. But that'd need the council's backing, and I'm not sure if there's a legal procedure which would allow it anyway.

Restricting cars from leaving the campsite would be possible, and would be a good idea. One way to do it, which is the practice in some places, would be that, though once you were in there would be no further charge for the car, you'd have to pay few pounds every time you drove in, after the first time which would be covered by the season ticket. But it's rather like smoking - even if most people might prefer a ban, the people who are married to the habit would kick up an enormous fuss.

However, while these suggestions about how to prove the campsite etc are useful enough in themselves, they are a bit beside the point. They need to be directed to the people planning Sidmouth.

..............................

The problem isn't really that there aren't enough people going to the festival, but rather that, taking everything into account, including insurance or underwriting, the income from festival goers isn't quite enough to cover the full costs. The amount we spend collectively going to Sidmouth is of course much higher than that, but most of it goes to local traders - who need to find some way of channeling enough of it back to keep the goose laying golden eggs.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: fiddler
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:02 AM

Bus passes have been available for a good few years now and Stagecoach, who run the service, have a man and vehicle at the entrance to the site selling tickets for the first few days of the festival.

As for the traffic; I am surprised there have not been any major accidents over the years (someone will contradict me on that one I'm sure). There is now have a coned off area by the old station and from where the footpath runs out you can take a right and end up at the Ice House Lane gate. This road is very quiet but currently the gate closes at 2330hrs (or sooner if there is a staff shortage).

I think McGrath has got a good synonym (or some other posh word!) - The festival lays the golden egg, for the traders in the town, and perhaps what is being said in the email is that they (and apparently the town council) seem unwilling to share any of the spoils. I could be wrong my information is no more than anyone elses.

Also
Any changes to the camp site have to be, and are, seriously considered, each year, there often are changes. Any suggestions you have PM them to me and I will endeavour to take them on board next year - if there is one!

But back to the story line we still have only two proposals in this thread are there any more? As I said I will relay sensible proposals on to Mrs Casey if folk want me to do that.

A

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:05 AM

I wonder if it'd be possible to have a levy during the week of 5p or so on every pint at pubs associated with the Festival, to go to the trust fund? Alright, the beers pricey enough already, but it'd be an excuse to have an extra pint...

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:06 AM

How many full season tickets are sold and what is the capacity of the main site. 2500 tickets at around 150 quid plus 48 for camping say 200 quid times 2500 = half a million. Well, OK may be this is spurious but the point I'm trying to get across is that out of 40,000 average estimated attendee's (more for 2004)   means an awful lot do not directly contribute to the festival coffers. If each paid about fifteen/twenty quid on average the festival could survive the odd year of rain. How many people go to the festival to enjoy the fringe sessions Radway, middlebar, seafront entertainment etc but do not actually contribute financially to the festival. Ive heard people boast that they they don't pay anything to the festival I wonder if they will be boasting this year.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: English Jon
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:17 AM

Remind me never to say anything again.

I live in Doncaster, OK? it's near Sheffield and bloody Barnsley.

London however is the capital... and certainly the largest city in the south of England.

Sidmouth is failing financially? right? that's the topic here, isn't it?

My point was, if you want to >make money< out of a festival, it needs to be able to draw a lot of people. London has the largest concentration of people in the South, so more potential punters.

Also, if you are traveling North/South (and dont have all day to go by the pretty way) you will most likely go via M1, M11 or A1 unless you live far enough west to get on the m5

"The world does not revolve around London." Lts....
Actually, it does. Constantly. - it joins the M3, and the M4 and the M40- that's why it's often blocked up! If you wanted to get from Kent to sidmouth youd take the A2, the M2 or the M20...onto the M25 etc.

Half my bloody life is spent using the m25 to generate enough velocity to slingshot me off to some gig or other.

"And as for the weather - to get any warmer you'd have to go up to Scotland for the Gulf Stream, or down to the Scilly Isles"

Don't know about whitby - last time I was there it was pretty chilly, but the isle of thanet (broadstairs, margate, ramsgate, canterbury, minster etc) Is >far< warmer than Sidmouth. It has less rainfall, and isn't as windy. I'm told that east anglia is actually the driest part of the country, so don't give me a load of cod meteorology. I can't see any geographical reason for the festival being held in sidmouth.

The fact that >YOU don't like london< is an entire side issue.

Basically liz, don't impose >your problem< on me. At least read my post properly before slagging me off. Yeah, it'd be tragic if sidmouth closed - my suggestion was move it to a town that is better equipped with appropriate camping facilies, enough parking and not so far off the beaten track. Sidmouth festival is too big for what the town can offer.

And another thing....

Countess Richard:

The Sidmouth campsite is for season ticket holders only and the season ticket serves as a free bus pass for the festival service. So there is no excuse whatsoever for using a vehicle around the town.

of course....richard. We all know cars are evil...

I expect you own one though, don't you?

McGraths suggestion:

"restricting cars from leaving the campsite would be possible, and would be a good idea"

McGrath is usually a voice or reason - he's one of the people on here who consistently avoids talking bollocks. However, I can't agree with this. I guess it depends on just how restrictive you are going to be:

One year when it pissed down with rain (quel suprise) at sidmouth, an over-officious steward refused to let me drive off the camp site. I had a gig to get to.

You really expect me to take a guitar, a fiddle, a melodeon, an english concertina and a hurdy gurdy on the bus? what about the PA?

What if the bus doesn't go where I need it to go? (Wimbourne, Dorset in this particular case)

Effectively, he was holding me against my will which was not only thoroughly aggravating and inconvenient, but also (as far as I know) illegal. Had he kept me any longer, I'd have missed the gig and not got paid, which is pretty bloody serious, I can tell you. It ain't a hobby.

Grrrrr.

Why do I bother.

Lts, you've really irritated me, which is a pity, because you seemed very nice when I met you - even if you did knit all the way through my gig.

Anyway, I've got to go.
Cheers,

Jon Loomes

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:32 AM

Hello Jon

No, I haven't got a car. I live in London and, like anyone else with a grain of sense, haven't bothered for years with one.

Even when I had one, you wouldn't have caught me zooming it around Sidmouth. It's just not necessary.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:33 AM

The restriction I suggested would be to have a charge each time you drove into the camp site after the first time, to encourage people to leave the car on site during the festival. Clearly in the case of needing to take a guitar, a fiddle, a melodeon, an english concertina and a hurdy gurdy, plus PA, to Wimborne it would be worth paying the charge. Less so, if it were a question of popping up and down to the town.

It's not an unusual arrangement.
.....................

But as for the question of Sidmouth being a long way from places that are a long way from Sidmouth: As I understand it the problem isn't that not enough people come. In fact if the numbers were higher it could end up making additional problems, and if they were coming for the fringe freebies, it wouldn't bring in extra money for the festival anyway.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: English Jon
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:44 AM

Fair enough Richard!

I never got wheels till I moved out of London - but I still don't think you can make a blanket comment that there is "No excuse" for using a car in Sidmouth! I'm not the only person who goes to Siddy with loads of kit - the fact is, cars are here to stay and if you pay road tax, you have a right to use a car.

McGrath's >clarified< suggestion is emminently sensible.

So, if enough people are going to Sidmouth - Why the economic dificulties? Are the tickets too cheap? or are not enough people >paying< to go to sidmouth? Maybe they aren't booking acts that draw people? Too many minor performers?

A lot of artists work the festival for "heavily reduced" fees - there is a great deal of support from musicians, dancers etc.

The cynic in me is thinking....Towersey makes a lot of money...is Sidmouth a tax loss?

JL

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:21 AM

In a way the problem is inherent in the type of festival it is.

If you have a campus-type festival, where everything happens on a field, like Cambridge, everybody coming pays towards the cost. But when you have it distributed around a town, with a fringe that is so big and varied thta you can have a great time without buying any tickets at all, a lot of people are not going to buy the tickets.

However, without the ticket events, much of the fringe would just evaporate, because it is largely the same performers involved in both, and manybokfvthe others woudl not be there without the main festival.

Some way of channeling money from the non-ticket buyers to the festival is needed. Collecting boxes doesn't really do the job. Asking local traders, and the local council, to stump up, is an attempt at another way to achieve this. Whether it will work is open to question. Basically it's a case of TANSTAAFL (there ain't no such thing as a free lunch).

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:41 AM

How about selling tickets to get into Sidmouth? We could have road blocks, where anyone going anywhere near Sidmouth is stopped at gun-point, hauled out of their cars and all their money is forcably taken from them? That should generate enough money keep the festival going for a few years.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Compton
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:40 PM

Now I am obviously missing something here. "Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."..doesn't this old sore apply to Sidmouth. If the organisation isn't making money, how can it blame the council?. Whilst booking Rolf Harris and Lonnie Donegan puts bums in the park (if dry!!), the festival has gone light years away from the ethos of Bill Rutter and the Englishe Folke Dance ande Songe Societie who didn't cry wolf when it rained!. Judging by many contributions to this thread, hardly anyone pays to go to official festival events anyway, many solely singing, playing outside the festival, I suggest that they contemplate on that and either support the festival or accept the consequences. If the organisers of Sidmouth were a properly run business, they would probably be bankrupt now, and the company in receivership. Get back to the roots…most people that appeared at Sidmouth twenty years ago,stayed the week, treated it as a holiday, and didn't screw the organisers. Now most song events by established performers are simply a quick breeze into Sidmouth, do the show, take the money and scarper. Cover the stage area totally, borrow the National Eistedfod Marquees…or just do the whole thing for love!!

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:53 PM

Shambles

Your posts suggest to me that you are one of the very people that McGrath is talking about - you enjoy the fringe and don't want to purchase a ticket for formal events. Which is fine - but don't then complain, please, that the Festival organisers are holding you all to ransom by suggesting that the financial side of the festival is causing them such headaches that they are seriously considering winding it up. You cannot have any idea of the amount of work that goes into organising a Festival such as that (nor do I) but it is a huge task and a massive responsibility. I for one do not blame them for trying to get local businesses, who benefit from the Festival, to support it in this way. More power to their elbow. Why do you always have to over dramatise everything in this way. Our own Festival was threatened a few years ago and the visible public support it received saved it. It was only because we spent a lot of time making sure people found out about the danger of it going that it was able to be saved. I suspect this is a similar exercise. However, if the current organisers do decide to give it up, perhaps you would like to step in, underwrite a newly formattted festival yourself and show them and the rest of us how it should be done.

The fringe elements of most festivals rely on the ticketed parts to provide the infrastructure of campsites, toilets, catering facilities, marketing, licensing, insurance, public relations etc. So if the ticketed part of the festival goes, it would be difficult to see the rest of it carrying on in anything like the same format. Granted a group of people could all decide to go to Sidmouth together and book into hotels, B&Bs or guesthouses, but from the way some people on here talk, they wouldn't be happy unless there was a campsite with scouts providing cooked breakfasts and the opportunity for late night sings. A normal site, open to all members of the public, wouldn't necessarily be willing to put up with that.

I've never been to Sidmouth and might never go. It would be a loss to the scene if it went - but not to me personally. But I just don't get your attitude, I really don't.
   
This is a side issue but - I am involved in organising a much smaller Festival, which uses several pubs as venues. I was astonished at a recent Festival, when a member of the public, who is well known on the folk scene in the north, complained to me that one of the pub landlords had 'had a go at him', saying that it wasn't on for him to just sit in the pub all afternoon listening to the music, and not buy a drink. HE on the other hand, was astonished when I agreed with the landlord and felt it was a reasonable point of view.

I am amazed sometimes at the expectations some people have. That pub landlord was paying money to the Festival to be a venue, increase his trade etc. There was no charge to go into the pub to hear the music. Am I the only one to think that it is a reasonable expectation that, once there, the listeners will purchase a drink from the bar?

Sorry for the rant - I feel better now

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: breezy
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:59 PM

so Steveeep organises Sidders

which other Events fests is he associated with in an organising capacity?

Does he do the National and towersey?

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:03 PM

Sidmouth festival has never been an earner for anyone involved in organising it - but it has been a significant source of income for local businesses. The increases in ticket and concessionaire prices have been down to rising costs.

The festival has been kept going for many years by people who care about it, but can't afford to subsidise it indefinitely. The official festival and the fringe have a symbiotic relationship, and many sessions in the Theatre and Middle Bars have benefited from free performances by booked guests. It's not really helpful to cast aspersions on the various organisers, who've managed to keep it going for 50 years in spite of all the problems.

Going to Sidmouth festival when I was a teenager has had a profound effect on the rest of my life. Sidmouth is a very special place anyway (part of the Jurassic Coast World Heritage Site), but Folk Week can, and should be, a great welcome to folk music, song, storytelling and dance.

It may be that the festival should be smaller, but it's not unreasonable to expect that the people who benefit from getting additional punters should contribute to the costs.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:35 PM

Move it to somewhere in Essex. It is the driest part of the country and flat. They could do with some culture too.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:46 PM

Where in Essex? The future of the Moreton Festival is under threat from the NIMBYs...

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: vectis
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:53 PM

English Jon has mentioned Broadstairs, my local festival. Several years ago the local council did a cost benefit analysis and found out how much income the festival generated for the town - a Hell of a lot. They promptly put their hands in their pockets to secure the future of the festival BECAUSE IT WAS TO THE FINANCIAL BENEFIT OF THE TOWN. The festival has gone from strength to strength ever since.
Maybe the burghers of Sidmouth would do the same and support their local businesses by supporting the festival. Or do they forget what the town gains from the festival and assume that they will only line Mrs Caseys pockets with gelt?

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 06:18 PM

"Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you got 'til it's gone"

I'm hoping that this is a warning shot rather than a parting shot. These kind of things take time to organise - it's the sort of thing that a Chamber of Trade should be involved in. There doesn't seem to be a Chamber of Trade in Sidmouth, maybe they need one, and perhaps this is the sort of issue that could get one set up. They need our custom, and the custom of the people we draw to the town.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 May 04 - 06:59 PM

Your posts suggest to me that you are one of the very people that McGrath is talking about - you enjoy the fringe and don't want to purchase a ticket for formal events.

Assumption they say is the mother of all cock-ups and there is rather too much ill-informed assumtion made in this posting from a guest who states they have never attended.

I am simply trying to ignore the many red herrings and concentrate minds on what the problem presented to the Sidmouth festival, in its current form is. Who is presenting this problem, and what can be done to ensure that the festival tradition continues in some form. The problem of having a private company organising the festival in the current form, is the fact that they can pull out at any time. This would have come to a head eventually and it is probably as well that it has now.

The current set up is not a trust, charity and the average attendee has no real say in it. No way of getting any of the suggestions made here, in place, and no one from the current organsers is actually asking for any of these suggestions.

If we can assume anything, Should the funds for underwriting the event be found, and the situation facing them changes, the current organisation would intend to carry on as before. I am sure that more money for other aspects of the festival would be welcome but that is not the current problem outlined in the PR. So there is no urgent need to try and force people to further subsidise official events they do not attend nor get any direct benefit from. This would be like thse in a session, demanding that the current organisers buy them drinks.

Appreciating the efforts of the current organisers to date, is one thing but supporting the current festival set up, and to what extent remains a matter of choice. As is when you attend and what events interest you. I hope that it is accepted that these aspects should remain a matter of personal choice and you can only be in one place at a time. Is it suggested that someone who can only attend on one day and chooses to attend a fringe session on that day, should pay for a ticket for an event they cannot attend?

I've never been to Sidmouth and might never go. It would be a loss to the scene if it went - but not to me personally. But I just don't get your attitude, I really don't.

Many of the contributors to this thread confess not to be regular attendees or never to have attended at all and make no contribution at all, either by directly by buying tickets or indirectly to the local economy. These poster do not appear to be critised in the same way as attendees to the fringe events appear to be. Is this not is a little strange? For even if some of these critised folk never paid directly for ticketed event, and most of them do at some time during the week, they would at least be making an indirect contribution to the local enonomy and to the overall attraction and colour of the event.

The facilties are mainly in place as this is a town festival. The regular attendees to the fringe events probably make more contribution to the local economy. As the main official events now tend not to take place in the town but in the out-of-town arena. So if the ticketed part of the currently organised festival should go - most of the current fringe events would have little difficulty in continuing. Some indeed now take place at Sidmouth in the winter, as has been pointed out.

But as some have never attended - they would not know this but would still appear to think they were entitled to make assumptions about and critise those who do attend and support this festival,(and others) directly and indirectly by doing so.

You can organise as many concerts, dances, workshops etc as you like, but it remains the folk who make a festival and Sidmouth is a fine festival because of all the folk who attend. Let us try and ensure that they can continue to attend in the future. Supporting fringe events does not make you an unrealistic or bad person. Nor should the assumption be made that it is not possible for these people to support the ticketed events also - many do both every year.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:19 PM

Countess, how about Clacton-on-sea?

On a serious note, should the current promoters should be expected to take the risk? There seems to be this expectation from the interested parties that they should. Maybe the BBC should sponsor this event rather than Cambridge; but that is another thing altogether. A trust fund for covering the weather has been mentioned. How about the local government, chamber of commerce (and businesses) and folk music lovers who can't bear to see this "tradition" die, set up a proper trust to organise the whole event? They could sub-contract to the current promoters as consultants so that the knowledge/experience gained over the years is not lost; maybe Chris Pegg who has been organising Cropredy for so many years would relish a fresh challenge. Maybe Exmouth or Weymouth would be happy to help host the event. Study the rainfall charts for the area and have it at a drier time, use some marquees. Traditional songs change over time.....

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST,another guest
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:15 PM

Never underestimate the power of vicarious consumption- I might never have been but i relish th eopportunity of going and desire the chance to continue doing so

A Letter Writer

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:24 PM

I assume that when attending fringe events Shambles puts a reasonable contribution in the collecting tins that go round. (I'm not being sarcastic here, I am sure he does.) Many people do, quite a lot don't, especially when it comes to the outdoor stuff, like the prom and the dance displays.

Fringe festival goers benefit indirectly from the existence of the core events and organisation. In order to have the whole fringe - the sessions, tune and music, the social dances in the Anchor, the activities on the prom, the dance displays, the processions - there has to be more than a fringe. (And it works the other way as well.) In order to have that central core of events, including the organisational stuff and the underwriting, more money is needed than comes in from the ticket receipts and the collections.

What is needed, it appears, is an improved method of ensuring that this gap is filled, so that everyone can benefit.

Thisnis a separate issue fromthe one of th eord=ganisatinal structure of the Festival, though obviously it is realted. There would indeed be advantages in a system where the Festival was run by some kind of trust, which would involve people with roots in Sidmouth the town as well as in Sidmouth the Festival. I hope that this kind of option is being worked on. But setting up that kind of thing takes time.

I would hope that the 5Oth Sidmouth will be such a roaring success that everyone will realise it would be crazy to let it collapse, and that that will give the momentum for setting up a more viable structure for keeping it alive.

Let's pray for good weather. Rainy Sidmouths can be just as much fun, but they work out expensive for the Festival.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:38 PM

Mike Harding tonight stated that Cambridge is to be sponsered by BBC
radio 2. Can I taste sour grapes OR IS IT JUST A COINCEDECE??????

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:48 PM

Now why Cambridge should need a sponsorship subsidy is a bit of a puzzle, given that it's an all ticket affair (and pricey tickets too), and presumably the organisation gets a healthy chunk of the bar profits as well.