BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 04:10 AM

There can be no moral right for Israel to say to the innocent or immobile non-combatant "Flee or be killed".

Defenders of Israel seem to be limited to Bearded Bruce, Robomatic, the aptly named Peace, C. Ham, and John on the Sunset Coast, most of whom seem to think that it is acceptable to kill the hostage in order to save him.

Enough said.

Come on, now you have checked (if you have checked), admit that I was right to say that there were sufficient reasons not to accept Gross's assertions without checking.

Also please admit that history teaches that the BBC has a long history of truthful factual reportage.

Guest, please look up the primary meaning of "refute". All I do her is two things. First, I continue to point out that no matter how much Israel maybe entitled (if it is) to attack Hezbollah, that does not entitle it to slaughter the innocent and lay waste to the Lebanon generally. Second, I point out that there may be reasons to doubt the true independence of the sources of some pro-Israel writings. Others are happy to do the job of attacking pro-Lebanese writings.

Pro or anti Hezbollah writings are not relevant to the primary issue I raised here, of Israel killing non-Hezbollah Lebanese and destroying the Lebanese infrastructure.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 10:50 PM

This message from a folk DJ in Northern Israel was posted today on the Folk-DJ e-mail group.

"I think that pretty much all of the people who have
related to this song have been correct, and certainly
sincere. The song does mention Lebanon's skys(read
also fields, streets etc) burning. As they were pretty
much throughout the 70's and 80's . Christian vs
Muslim, Palestinian vs Israeli. The song was written
around the time of the Lebanese Civil War- and does
not lay blame on any one side- I shall probably play
that song on one of my programmes just as soon as I
can get back to broadcasting- the Dolores Keane
version is beautiful.

The fact that I broadcast a peace programme does not
prevent me from seeing the difficulty of day to day
life here in the north of Israel at present and in the
past several years,- having to listen and look in the
skys for rockets or over my shoulder for terrorists. I
do mean this- whole areas of countryside roads have
been unsafe for years, ( I note this as a keen
cyclist) and life frequently disrupted for a few days
on end because of shelling or rocketing.
In the present tragic war- on this side most people
have fled from the north- some 300,000 people are
temporary refugees and many have no homes to go back
to.( Not to mention probably the whole population of
Southern Lebanon -not counting terrorists)
I can not go into the station- as it is now down to
one staff member at a time- in a bomb shelter.
I live outside that area- and to travel through the
rockets is madness.The kibbutz and the station seem to
be targeted more than many other places in the area-
perhaps because of the peace programmes. I am not
despairing, but feel that with the Hizbullah peace
talks or programmes are of no use- they want one
thing only, and they don't mind saying so- the
complete destruction and removal of Israel from the
map. My programmes are aimed at the good folks on both
sides of the border who just want to live and farm in
peace.

I really don't think that the FOLKDJ listis the place
for political discussion. Such discussions are carried
out on another forum- The Mudcat Cafe- which has
become an arena of endless mudslinging and infantile
name calling.
I'm just telling it as it is for this DJ- in lieu of
playlists- which I hope to resume as soon as I can.
"Normal Service will be resumed as soon as possible"
as they used to say on BBC TV!
Hoping and praying for Peace-
Yours,
Menachem Vinegrad- Radio Upper Galilee- Israel"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 10:25 PM

We hail you Richard Bridge. You are the one who knows the truth. You are the one who recognizes the media control exercised by the zionists.

Truth only gets through on a site like this where people of superior knowledge like you come to refute the zionistic lies.

Richard Bridge bows in his intellect to no zionist.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:11 PM

Thank you for your candor, Freda. So you were only quoting a source that apparently was selectively citing that document, but not the document itself.

From my perspective, the point you were trying to make is that because a Jew criticizes Israel your position is vindicated.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:04 PM

Freda Underhill is selectively quoting from documents to support her bias?

uh, I was quoting from the paper, John, which was reporting the findings.

I guess my point with that article is that Jews have been placed in a position where to criticise the Israeli govt is seen as deeply disloyal, anti-Semitic - my country, right or wrong. And the writer, a jewish Professor, is pointing out how wrong that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:32 PM

PS,

Richie Bridgie Poo,

When you want to get off the personal attacks and get back to Hezbollah, the folks who started the mess, please let me know. Until then, have a lovely day. Kiss kiss.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:31 PM

"And why should the innocent flee?"

Uh, to escape being killed as the IDF goes after the Hezbollah terrorists who are using them as shields?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:30 PM

Dear Richard,

Don't let your view of yourself inflate your head. I have no idea what you mean by your last remark, nor will I ponder it past this post. You seem to be a smug ego looking for a place to roost. However, none of your insights seem to be doing anything other than make you look like the dolt you are. So, in a word, and since I obviously can't count, piss off!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:26 PM

I am sick of morons.

Go and read Gross's CV. It makes it entirely clear who he is likely to be supporting. I was right. Have the honesty to admit it.

If Hezbollah has committed warcrimes it does not justify warcrimes AGAINST THE LEBANON. What part of that is too hard for you to understand? In fact it would not justify war crimes against Hezbollah but that is more subtle.

The Israel warnings are not a sufficent defence. The old, the injured, the very young, those buried in cellars under collapsed buildings - they cannot flee. The very roads they need to use to flee have been destoyed byIsraeli attacks. And why should the innocent flee?

Look, try a simple example. A fugitive kidnaps me. He uses me as a human shield. He holds me in front of him. A policeman tries to shoot him and shoots (and kills) me in stead. That is murder (in English law) for the policeman must essentially and objectively have considered the risk of killing me or doing grievous bodliy harm to me and at best then disregarded it.

Have you got it yet?

Juicy Brucie, have you learned to count yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:22 PM

"As of Friday the Associated Press count showed at least 559 Lebanese have been killed, including 482 civilians confirmed dead by the Health Ministry, 27 Lebanese soldiers and at least 50 Hezbollah guerrillas."

FYI

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:06 PM

Freda, you are right...Israel does not speak for every Jew, the Vatican does not speak for every Catholic, England doesn't speak for every Anglican, Saudi Arabia does not speak for every Muslim, ad infinitum; so your point is...?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:02 PM

Robomatic, am I to infer that Freda Underhill is selectively quoting from documents to supported her bias? Surely not! That would be, well, underhanded.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:02 PM

Lord have mercy.

I'm interested to see if anyone read the article I posted at 04 Aug 06 - 04:53 AM - Israel does not act or speak for every Jew - and your comments on that article.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 03:51 PM

Hey Freda:

This is a section from Human Rights Watch report also:

"While not the focus of this report, Human Rights Watch has separately and simultaneously documented violations of international humanitarian law by Hezbollah, including a pattern of attacks that amount to war crimes. Between July 12, when Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers and killed eight, and July 27, the group launched a reported 1,300 rockets into predominantly civilian areas in Israel, killing 18 civilians and wounding more than 300. Without guidance systems for accurate targeting, the rockets are inherently indiscriminate when directed toward civilian areas, especially cities, and thus are serious violations of the requirement of international humanitarian law that attackers distinguish at all times between combatants and civilians. Some of these rockets, Human Rights Watch found, are packed with thousands of metal ball-bearings, which spray more than 100 meters from the blast and compound the harm to civilians."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 03:45 PM

Richard Bridge

"to see if it was generally thought that the heavy handed Israeli actions in Gaza (and it got extended to the Lebanon) and their effect on non-Hamas and non-Hezbollah were justified. There seem to be three or four together from Canada (I think Ham is from Canada) and the USA who think so. Everyone else (or pretty much so) seems to think not. "

Point one.

SOme of us do not consider that the Israeli response is heavy-handed- In fact, the IDF has gone out of its way to warn people before attacking- UNLIKE HEZBOLLAH.

Point Two.

There seem to be two or three together, from the UK, Australia, and Canada who think it is not justified. Everyone else (or pretty much everyone but the mysterious number of guests) seems to think that it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 03:22 PM

"Robertson is not the only foreign journalist to have misled viewers with selected footage from Beirut. NBC's Richard Engel, CBS's Elizabeth Palmer, and a host of European and other networks, were also taken around the damaged areas by Hezbollah minders. Palmer commented on her report that "Hezbollah is also determined that outsiders will only see what it wants them to see."

Palmer's honesty is helpful. But it doesn't prevent the damage being done by organizations such as the BBC, whose bias is obvious to those who know the facts. First, the BBC gave the impression that Israel had flattened the greater part of Beirut. Then to follow up its lopsided coverage, its Web site helpfully carried full details of the assembly points for an anti-Israel march due to take place in London, but did not give any details about a rally in support of Israel also held in London a short time later.

Indeed, the BBC's coverage of the present war has been so extraordinary that even staunch BBC supporters in London seem rather embarrassed -- in conversation, not on the air, unfortunately.

If the BBC were just a British problem, that would be one thing, but it is not. Thanks to British taxpayers, it is the world's biggest and most lavishly funded news organization. No other station broadcasts so extensively in dozens of languages, on TV, radio and online.

The BBC's radio service alone attracts over 163 million listeners. It pours forth its world view in almost every language of the Middle East: Pashto, Persian, Arabic and Turkish. (Needless to say, it declines to broadcast in Hebrew, even though it does broadcast in the languages of other small nations: Macedonian and Albanian, Azeri and Uzbek, Kinyarwanda and Kyrgyz, and so on.)

It is not just that the supposed crimes of Israel are completely overplayed, but the fact that this is a two-sided war (started, of course, by Hezbollah) is all but obscured. As a result, in spite of hundreds of hours of broadcast by dozens of BBC reporters and studio anchors, you wouldn't really know that hundreds of thousands of Israelis have been living in bomb shelters for weeks now, tired, afraid, but resilient; that a grandmother and her seven-year old grandson were killed by a Katyusha rocket during a Friday night Sabbath dinner; that several other Israeli children have died."




And Bridges says:"I think you will find that Gross, the author of the article cited above as containing some alleged truth, is Jewish. My evidence for this is limited to the name. He was the former Jerusalem correspondent for the Telegraph - a paper so right wing as to vie with the Mail, and perhaps to be acceptable reading for some Americans here.

The article contains obvious distortions in some places to the extent that I would not accept what it says as fact without independent (yes independent) corroboration.

The BBC has a reputation built up over about 80 years as the world's premier factual reportage. I am inclined to rely on that. "


I guess it is just a matter of the news you accept having the RIGHT bias.


Some of us look at both sides, and try to determine what actually is going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:56 PM

Richard Bridge,

So, do you then recognize the "the likelihood of bias in favour of Hezbollah " by the BBC, since they are being feed by Hezbollah PR hacks? If not, you have no ground to rule out Gross's comments.

Perhaps you could address the POINTS being brought up, rather than the person. THOSE can be discussed, debated, and even discarded IF shown false.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hezbollah statement
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:22 PM

"Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore, our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no ceasefire and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated. We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore, we oppose and reject the Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:18 PM

Mr. Bridge,

It is you who introduced the "race card" by disqualifying the arguements of a columnist on the sole basis that he might be Jewish.

That's it. I'm done with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:01 PM

Ham are you stupid, or just bigoted?


Read what I said, not what you wish I'd said.

One of the reasons (I gave three) for doubting what Gross says is that he is more likely to have a pro-Israel stance than not. I didn't judge him on the basis of race, but on the basis of three things. (1) the likelihood of bias in favour of Israel because he is Jewish (2) the likelihood of bias because of an association with a newspaper with extreme right-wing views (3) the appearance of bias in the piece you so admired.


If you haven't got a leg to stand on the race card will not help you.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:30 AM

Published on Thursday, August 3, 2006 by the Inter Press Service
Human Rights Watch Accuses Israel of War Crimes
by Jim Lobe

WASHINGTON - In systematically failing to distinguish between Hezbollah fighters and civilian population in its three-and-a-half-week-old military campaign in Lebanon, the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) have committed war crimes, according to a report released by Human Rights Watch Wednesday. The 50-page report, "Fatal Strikes: Israel's Indiscriminate Attacks Against Civilians in Lebanon," detailed nearly two dozen cases of IDF attacks in which a total of 153 civilians, including 63 children, were killed in homes or motor vehicles.

In none of the cases did HRW researchers find evidence that there was a significant enough military objective to justify the attack, given the risks to civilian lives, while, in many cases, there was no identifiable military target. In still other cases cited in the report, Israeli forces appear to have deliberately targeted civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:23 AM

For heaven's sake, Bridge, learn to read.

You are not debating any point that Gross makes, you are dismissing him because you perceive him to be Jewish. That makes you an anti-Semite.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:11 AM

Google Tom Gross.

Amongst other stuff you will find this on his own website: -

"Tom Gross has worked as a consultant for a variety of governmental and non-governmental organizations, including advising the UN on the political and social situation of the Roma. In addition, he has worked for the Jan Hus Educational Foundation (a Brno-based educational charity), for the Prague Tolerance Foundation's "Families After the Holocaust", as an International Media Consultant for Ben Gurion University in Israel, and as a consultant to the Jewish Museum of Prague"

My point I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:03 AM

For heavens sake Ham, learn to read.

Gross has a name that is likely to be Jewish. If he is Jewish he is more likely rather than less to adopt the Israeli point of view. He worked for a rabid right-wing paper, the Telegraph. If you bother to read his article you will see several points of obvious assumption rather than logic.

Three reasons to doubt, and I doubted rather than disqualified.

Play the race card all you want. It doesn't wash.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,walt
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:39 AM

I certainly wold not describe Norman Finkelstein as "rabid."
walt

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:30 AM

Richard Bridge,

Whether or not Tom Gross is Jewish is not the issue. BTW, I know people named Cohen, Shapiro and Schwartz, common Jewish names, who are not Jewish.

You are an anti-Semite because you disqualify Gross, not because you can argue the points he makes, but because, he has a "Jewish name."

BTW, perhaps the most rabid anti-Israel academic in the U.S.A. is Norman Finkelstein. He too has a "Jewish name."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Yarrow
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:46 AM

I have been following the arguments over Gaza,Israel ,Lebanon and the rest of the Middle East with some interest. I thought I would write in and reccomend two books which I found very informative when I read them last year.
The first one is a general account of the Middle East and is written by Robert Fisk called The Great War For Civilisation and the second book,also by Fisk is Pity the Nation about the first invasion of Lebanon.
Both books ring true!
yarrow

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,tina
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:15 AM

I have just checked the details of tomorrow's anti war march in London on the Palestine Solidarity Campaign's website.It assembles at Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park at 12 midday before setting off for Downing St.
From the other reports I have read it looks like it will be very,very big.
tina

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 04:53 AM

Israel does not act or speak for every Jew excerpts follow..

I WRITE as a Jew and as a synagogue member. I write as one whose academic work continues to move through questions of Jewish identity and the legacy of the Holocaust. Yet, I write with a growing sense of shame. The source of the feeling is simple: Israel claims that it continues to act in my name. The Jewish community in Sydney and elsewhere insists on identifying themselves with Israeli actions. These acts are part of a tradition in which the state of Israel has set the measure for being Jewish. The proof of this is the perverse logic in which responses to the politics of Israel - a politics that manifests itself in the bulldozing of houses in Gaza and the bombing of civilians in Qana - take the form of attacks on synagogues, Jewish cultural centres and Jewish cemeteries. Each time Israel acts in a certain way, security measures around synagogues are doubled.

Why? The straightforward answer attests to the victory of those who have linked and continue to link being a Jew to Israel and thus to those who conflate Judaism and Zionism. The consequence of this is that a critique of Zionism or a disagreement over the policies of Israel are taken at best as a criticism of Jews and, at worst, as anti-Semitic. The evidence is clear. Attacks on synagogues in Seattle and Parramatta underscore the results of this. These attacks are the result of the politics of a nation state.

For a Jew, Israel is both the name of a state and the locus of ideals and actions. Israel, as a place in which the endless and complex negotiation with others takes place, is the Israel that exists within Judaism. This is the Israel evoked in the liturgy. The state of Israel needs to be judged in relation to the other Israel. There is a Judaic critique of Israel; one which once articulated would allow some Jews to undo the project that continues to identify the policies of a state with both a culture and a religion.

Until that undoing is accomplished Jewish community centres - religious or secular - will continue to be attacked. Israel, in its present manifestation, sustains anti-Semitism. And yet, it will be argued the Holocaust has made the state of Israel a necessity: a state was needed so that such events not happen again. State creation always displaces a people. And the results of that founding displacement should always be acknowledged, understood and in the end resolved. However what endures for many as an outrage is Israel hijacking the Holocaust for its political ends: the Holocaust is used to sustain a specific geo-political situation.

Understanding the Holocaust, tracing its impact upon how we think today, is a project that endures. Moreover, it is a project that resists easy summation. The idea that it can figure as an element of state policy is both an intellectual and ethical scandal. This needs to be said. Until Jews are prepared to articulate the need to sever the identification of Judaism and Israel, anti-Semitism will flourish. Until Jews are prepared to argue that the Holocaust and its legacy is not the province of a nation state, let alone a justification for Zionism, our responsibility in relation to the dead will continue to be betrayed. We should demand better of ourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 04:14 AM

Ham, don't be stupid. Many names indicate origin.

Bobad, the argument you seek to make is no better than that of the killer of a hostage "Now see what you made me do". You still don't seem to see any difference between expediency and morality.

Robomatic, I have several times said that it may be legitimate for Israel to attack Hezbollah (as it was for the British Army to attack the IRA) but that of itself does not justify Israel slaughtering the Lebanese and destroying the Lebanon.

It is simply unsustainable (on the vast majority of reportage) to assert that the only people Israel are killing are Hezbollah. It is simply unsustainable (on the vast majority of reportage) to assert that all property being destroyed is that of Hezbollah.

Peace, learn to read. I gave three reasons for saying that further evidence was needed to accept Gross's assertions as fact. If he is Jewish, it is significant, for Israel is a Jewish country. His background as a writer for a very right-wing paper is significant. The obvious distortions in his article indicate an agenda.

I have not, in this thread, sought to defend Hezbollah. Don't pretend that I have. I started the thread to see if it was generally thought that the heavy handed Israeli actions in Gaza (and it got extended to the Lebanon) and their effect on non-Hamas and non-Hezbollah were justified. There seem to be three or four together from Canada (I think Ham is from Canada) and the USA who think so. Everyone else (or pretty much so) seems to think not.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Rachel
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 04:13 AM

A British Labour Party MP and 8 women from Birmingham have been refused entry into Israel and ordered out of the country.

Dr Lynne Jones a Birmingham MP together with Respect Party cllr Salma Yacoob and the othere women were in Israel to develop twinning links between Birmingham and Ram'allah a town on the occupied West Bank.

Money raised in Birmingham had been used in Ram'allah to develop a children's library and open a nursery and the British delegation had come to see progress and discuss what further help might be needed.
However, at Tel Aviv airport, the delegation was refused entry and told they would be arrested if they refused to leave.
rachel

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 01:46 AM

Tony Blair has been precisely right in his position.

I wonder if anyone is going to leave shoes for the dead Israelis.

Ultimately your one-sided appeal, as if all the casualties are only on one side will fall back on you. The anti-humanitarians in this story are the guys who started it, Hamas and Hezbollah, and their THOUSANDS OF ROCKETS blasting well into Israel. They have justified Israel's actions in Lebanon and until Hezbollah restores Lebanon to the Lebanese, there will be no peace.

I don't forget that neither of you one-sided ranters has granted that Israel has ANY borders worth respecting. You are supporting a situation with no other resolution than victory or defeat. Therefore when you discuss PEACE you are being hypocritical because you have no position that can possibly lead to peace by denying Israel the right to borders.

I can only conclude that every action taken on your side is an action of war under some guise.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 01:16 AM

BREAD NOT BOMBS!
There will be a huge anti war demonstration in central London tomorrow organised by The Stop The War Coalition and the Palestine Solidarity Campaign.

Demonstrators will be bringing children's shoes with them to leave at Downing St to highlight the fact that children are dying in large numbers in the Lebanon and Gaza and to point the finger at Tony Blair who has allowed US military cargo planes bound for Israel with fresh bombs to stopover at British airports.Blair has also refused to call for an immediate ceasefire much to the disgust of his own party.
The marchers will be calling for
an immediate ceasefire and an end to the invasion of the Lebanon
Hands off Gaza
Humanitarian aid for all in need.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,josh
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 01:04 AM

to robomatic
"I just hope most of us survive to that time!"

You sound a bit angst ridden robomatic.But while you are getting a bit maudlin no doubt in a comfortable and safe home there are now almost a million Lebanese who have been "displaced" by Israeli bombing and have experienced terrible events while trying to find a fragile safety...

and of course, despite some of the postings to the contrary, the Lebanon is still a very dangerous land for civilians who are being bombed in Beirut and Baalbek and other towns and villages.

Hezbollah has offered to stop firing its rockets into Israel as long as Israel stops bombing Beirut but all the early morning reports I have read show that the air attack will continue and more civilians and children will be slaughtered.
josh

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:59 PM

Ultimately, it is Arabs and Muslims who will determine how the overall 'world' situation turns out. I have faith that in the end things will turn out well, after trying every other method. I just hope most of us survive to that time.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:46 PM

Guest,jim--I did not say Palestineans destroyed Buddhist statues and I did not say those statues were in the Levant. I used them as an example of how some Islamic groups respect and protect other peoples shrines and holy places...not! And you know, or ought to have known, that that was the gist of that posting. There are others here, too, who post here who like to twist words, but you aren't getting away with it.

Peace--Please stop your screeds against some the anti-Israel posters. We make much stronger arguments when present our point of view, and discredit theirs with facts they ignore.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:29 PM

I think you will find that Gross, the author of the article cited above as containing some alleged truth, is Jewish. My evidence for this is limited to the name.

But, Richard Bridge, with that statement you have painted yourself as an ugly anti-Semite.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:26 PM

"An article reprinted in today's Guardian from the Israeli paper Ha'aretz seems to me worth reading,"

Many have grown accustomed to left-wing papers such as Britain's Guardian allowing their Mideast coverage to spill over into something akin to anti-Semitism. For example, last month a cartoon by the Guardian's Martin Rowson depicted Stars of David being used as knuckle dusters on a bloody fist.

From C.Ham's link.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:21 PM

And from the second link (which is the same article):

"Now, after the tragic events in Qana that killed some 60 civilians, even Israel's greatest ally has changed direction and says it wants a speedy ceasefire. Fouad Siniora, the Lebanese prime minister, has declared that Hizbullah's victory is the victory of the entire Lebanese people and that if Israel remains in south Lebanon, he will turn the Lebanese army against it. Siniora even spoke about a ceasefire without any agreement."

That figure is wrong. I think it has been down-graded to about 38 deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:16 PM

There is more than enough truth in the article. Here is another quotation from the first one:

"This does not mean that if Israel had adopted the G8 proposal, the problem of Hizbullah would have been resolved. That would not have happened. That can only be resolved at the diplomatic level, with an Israeli-Syrian-Lebanese agreement."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:08 PM

An article reprinted in today's Guardian from the Israeli paper Ha'aretz seems to me worth reading, and provides a interesting analysis of how the current situation appears to an Israeli who supported the initial military response to the precipitating incident on July 12th - How Israel's gung-ho leaders turned victory into calamity

"There was one moment during the war when we had the upper hand. It was the moment when Israel had succeeded in striking Hizbullah with strong and surprising force, Haifa was peaceful and the number of casualties was small. That was the right moment to stop the war, declare victory and move on to the diplomatic track.

This opportunity came when the G8 convened in St Petersburg on July 14, two days after the fighting broke out. The G8 formulated a four-point plan, and nothing could have been better for Israel...

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:06 PM

Richard:

Who you are 'pro-' and who you are 'anti-' is less relevant than your argument. (You clearly initiated the thread as 'anti-' which is your privilege, natch)

If Lebanon (is that a British thing, to call it 'the Lebanon'?) can't manage their own borders in order to keep organized terrorists with massive stockpiles of weapons from attacking a neighbor, or if they tacitly approve of such attacks, who can determine. Israeli troops have been attacked or provoked at regular intervals since the pullout, and this time people were killed and kidnapped. I think what Israel did and is doing is absolutely necessary, and that includes the scale of response.

The massive scale of Hezbollah armaments and ability to penetrate Israeli territory with thousands of medium range rockets may not be an issue for you since you seem to concentrate on Israeli bombing raids. At the very least to a fair-minded person I would expect both matters to be at issue. Possibly you would like the death toll to be more equal. Several 'fair-minded' postings have intimated that. With that kind of thinking wouldn't it have been fairer if during WWII Germany had bombed London to the extent that England bombed Dresden?

So, Richard Bridge, I question your logic, and don't particularly care what 'side' you be on. You seem to take only a superficial interest in the underlying issues as opposed to the vast propaganda being generated and have not been a big participant in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:50 PM

And while we're on the topic of propaganda, Cana: The initial reporting was all over the place on that. Good ol' dependable Hezbollah media spin, huh? But hey, let's not talk about that. Let's go back to a writer whom you assume to be Jewish because of his name, and who, simply beCAUSE he is Jewish is presenting what you presume to be a biased report. Yep. Let's hear more of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:42 PM

"2. Is Israel entitled to decimate the Lebanese because of the acts of Hezbollah?"

Israel is not decimating the Lebanese, it is decimating Hezbollah whose tactics are causing the deaths of innocent Lebanese. Take it up with Hezbollah maybe they will listen to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:37 PM

Oh, yes. I suppose that the Hezbollah members who show the press around are not biased in any way? Jaysus, grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:35 PM

"Don't forget I came to this present round of killings pro-Israel. Now I ain't."

With that and a buck you can ride the bus.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:34 PM

First topic - the article

I think you will find that Gross, the author of the article cited above as containing some alleged truth, is Jewish. My evidence for this is limited to the name. He was the former Jerusalem correspondent for the Telegraph - a paper so right wing as to vie with the Mail, and perhaps to be acceptable reading for some Americans here.

The article contains obvious distortions in some places to the extent that I would not accept what it says as fact without independent (yes independent) corroboration.

The BBC has a reputation built up over about 80 years as the world's premier factual reportage. I am inclined to rely on that.

Second topic: I quote

"1) Hezbollah attacked Israel.

2) Israel is going to destroy Hezbollah."

Israel is destroying the Lebanon and killing the Lebanese, whether or not they are Hezbollah. That is not justifiable. It may be expedient, but it is wrong.

Third topic

Hezbollah use propaganda. Well surprise surprise. I suppose Israel doesn't?



Two issues are being muddled up.

1. Who is entitled to the disputed land? Israel or the Palestinians. I am undecided but I do not see a claim to have lived there 2,000 years ago as being decisive.

2. Is Israel entitled to decimate the Lebanese because of the acts of Hezbollah? THe answer is plain. It is "No".




Don't forget I came to this present round of killings pro-Israel. Now I ain't.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:26 PM

Hey, Josh, where's ifor? He didn't make much more sense than you do, but it would be a change from your claptrap. C'mon, lad, gie us a break. Switch personas.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:19 PM

"Extremist Zionist groups are likely to "enter" the Holy Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem either today or in the next few days and senior muslim clerics believe they intend to trash it."

To balance that erudite and insightful prognostication (read, flat-ass guess), I shall posit the following:

"Extremist Hezbollah groups (that's ALL of them) are likely to enter a room filled with Israeli children and blow them up, just to make a political point. And extremist Hezbollah groupies on this thread are likely to consume too much beer this evening and froth at the mouth"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:13 PM

I think it's pretty well obvious what's going on with the propaganda war to everyone except the few dupes who are posting here as "guests".