So what is *Traditional* Folk Music?

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 04:22 AM

while I dont have the time to include everything I think is traditional,here are some starters.
the collections of C sharp, BaringGould, Hammond brothers, Kidson,
The shanties in Stan Hugills collection, The Child Ballads.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: johnadams
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 05:22 AM

In the interesting discussions above there is a tendancy to talk about whether ot not the 'songs' are traditional. Surely you have to also consider the 'singing' as well.

For instance, over on the Musical Traditions thread, Dick Miles quoted a list of songs and song types that he identified as traditional or not. I had no particular opinion on any of it except I was promted to wonder when he quoted 'The Mistletoe Bough', giving an author, a date (1868 I think) and suggesting that it wasn't traditional. Fair enough, except that it is one of the songs that is 'traditionally' sung as part of the repertoire of the Blue Ball at Worrell (and other pubs) during the 'traditional' Sheffield Carols in UK every December. The singers don't know the author, probably think it's an older song and don't think too much about it anyway. They just have a 'tradition' of singing it and it has the ethos of 'traditional' even though it was composed (if nearly a century and a half ago).

So, in the light of this discussion, do YOU think it's a traditional song or not?

Johnny Adams

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 05:56 AM

Those of us who care to know already know the definition of "Folk music". If you want to look it can be found in my old posts and on MusTrad. That's what the definition is. A definition is a definition - for example the defition of an erg in physics, or a celsius heat unit.

So first do we need to define "traditional" folk music, or are we merely looking for a term to eliminate the confusion that is caused by those who don't like the definition of "folk" music and so use the term incorrectly?

Second, if we do, need to define it, has any authority previously defined it? I would need to go away and dig to be clearer on this, but my first reaction is "Probably no".

Third, if we are to define it, what do we want it to mean and are we in a position to assert a defnition. The answer to the second part of the question is probably "No", but if the (UK) Nats return they will need a defintion for they had and presumably will revive a competition annually for the best unaccompanied performance of a traditional folk song.

One obvious contender for the meaning of the word in context is "of unknown authorship", but that cannot be complete for it conveys no impression of antiquity. However, if a traditional song is of unknown authorship then its age must be unknown too, and I hesitate to insert a phrase lke "reasonably and generally believed to have been composed by an author not still living". Both however would admit at least in theory of there being accretions to the class of "traditional" folk songs and folk music. Conversely, if new research should establish the author of a piece then the piece might cease to be traditional.

The mere fact that some results of applying a definition lead to surprising results does not necessarily mean that the definition is bad. It may (without limitation) mean that a general assumption or interpretation is bad.

Examples might be the assertion (I do not know if it is correct or not, but it is often heard) that King Henry VIII wrote Greensleeves. If that is verifiable then on usual definitions Greensleeves is not traditional.

COnsider also the Cuddy Wren (or Cutty Wren). I have heard it asserted that it was published in written form in the C13th. That would (probably, depending on the view taken of its subsequent transmission) mean it was not a folk song.

Or should we abandon the word "traditional" and stick to the known definition of "folk song" and seek to educate the "horse music" theorists and fans of Bob Dylan and Paul Simon?

Or should we fix a limit? After all the dates before and after which a motor car is "veteran" "edwardian" "vintage" or "post-vintage thoroughbred" are all fixed, even if those ignorant of the truth in such respects abound. Should we say that a "traditional" song has to be older than 1900 (or maybe 1850, to lose most music-hall stuff) - and how would we know, if the author is unknown? Maybe we shold say "provable to be older than x, so taht ther ewould have to be a proof of existnece (perhpas in writing) before that date? But that would sit oddly with the idea that a folk song must be transmitted orally rather than in writing.

A vexing question!

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 06:26 AM

"COnsider also the Cuddy Wren (or Cutty Wren). I have heard it asserted that it was published in written form in the C13th. That would (probably, depending on the view taken of its subsequent transmission) mean it was not a folk song."

There's a common misconception embodied in this quote, ie. that if a song has a known author it can't be considered as 'traditional' - not so (this is romantic twaddle)! In fact a surprising number of 'traditional' songs have known authors. For example quite a number of English trad. songs are known to have had their origins in 17th or 18th century plays. Additionally there's lots of evidence that many songs had a broadside origin. Some of the broadside publishers may have just been printing songs from an earlier oral tradition but some songs were probably newly composed when they were first printed (hence must have had authors - albeit anonymous).

The point about 'traditional' songs is that they have largely been through a PROCESS involving oral transmission, selection and change. And, of course, since Cecil Sharp first came up with this 'evolutionary theory' of folk song it has been endlessly debated, debunked, modified and qualified - I'll leave you to find all the references and make up your own mind (please, though, avoid romantic - largely made up - twaddle).

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 06:35 AM

Richard, I beg to differ. You say "The mere fact that some results of applying a definition lead to surprising results does not necessarily mean that the definition is bad."

Actually, it does mean precisely that - the definition is ambiguous, and therefore does not "define", ergo it's useless. A definition in science bears only one interpretation. I appreciate that in law, an imprecise art, this may not be the case, and that's where lawyers come in to interpret.

And so all the various definitions you mention above are imperfect, and bear discussion, improvement or discarding. And the term f**k remains an arbitrary one (as it was indeed when it was coined), and so does the term tr@d1t10n@l (whose tradition, established when and transmitted how, relative to which moment in time etc etc). Both are open to interpretations, with no authority able to prove beyond doubt and discussion that their particular attempt to corral this herd of cats is the definitive one.

But that is fine by me. I feel no need to define the terms; and if in discussion my use of either term with respect to a particular song is challenged, so what. Vive la difference, I say.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 06:44 AM

Shimrod, I suggest you check the definitions that I did not bother setting out, because I thought serious contributors would know them. You can find them on MusTrad, and you can find them by checking my old posts, and I expect you can find them by googling intelligently... As far as I recollect Wikipedia has it wrong, but that is why I tell my students NOT to cite it as an academic source, it is not reviewed and it does contain errors (mostly Americo-centric).

George, that fact that a definition leads to a surprising result defnitely does not mean it is ambiguous. It that were its fault it would not lead to a result.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 06:53 AM

Yes your points are good, john.
In my opinion John it is not, any more than maccolls Sweet Thames Flow Softly, which doesn,t mean that I wouldnt sing either of them.
The sheffield singers also sing, While Shepherds Watched their flocks by night[ that is not traditional either]even if they have been singing it for Fifty years.
I also quoted the Child Ballads ,and the collection at CECIL SHARP HOUSE[ I find it hard to believe that you dont have any opinion on whether these are traditional].; especialLy with your EFDSS connections
There is no excuse for anyone in these days of computer technology [ it took me two minutes to ascertain the author of the mistletoe bough][[including the Sheffield singers ]]not to credit the author. both you and I JOHN as songwriters would like to be credited.for anything we have written.
Bob Hart [ tradional singer] used to sing What A FUNNY LIITLE PLACE TO HAVE ONE] in my opinion a music hall song, and an amusing song, but not a traditional song, even if it is sung by a singer who does have traditonal songs in his repertoire,and is regarded as a tradtional singer.
I feel particuarly strongly about music hall as I think it was partly responsible for the destruction of what CECIL SHARP regarded as traditional song.
    I find mus trad magazine,very good, it was particuarly therapeutic;;;;;;;;;;;;
to read something sensible last night[ after the Zog attack.]
I wish the magzazine every success for the future,and look forward to reading many more informative articles. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,walkaboutsverse
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 07:03 AM

Traditional folk music is folk music that isn't contemporary - the other branch of folk music. Nor is it gobbledegook.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 07:35 AM

Sorry Richard, misunderstood the meaning as "surprising = different from other times". My interpretation was faulty! ;-)

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 10:27 AM

There is at least one important reason for these labels, though they make make make a any difference to some: If I, as a person with limited time and resources, wish to hear a performance by a person or persons unknown to me, I'd like to get some idea of what they do before plunking down my cash and spending my time. The label "Traditional", flawed as it may be, at least suggest to me that I won't be surprised by a rock group or a post-modern songwriter.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 10:48 AM

Someone mentioned that none of the "old timers" have posted yet. Well, I consider myself an "old timer", at least in the sense that I'm damned old, and I'm going to post now!

I've followed this subject, with great interest, over the several times it's been played out before. Many interesting and thoughtful comments have been posted.

When I first encountered this question, I was quite comfortable in my personal definition, which was quite rigid and worked for me: "it had to be at LEAST a hundred years old and the 'author' had to be unknown."

I am now preparing for a formal concert of "traditional" folk songs. To my horror, I realize that I am performing several songs that no longer fit my "easy" definition: "Coal Tattoo" by Billy Ed Wheeler; "Winds-A-Way" by Gordon Bok, etc.

At my comfortable age of 69, I'm pleased that I have reached that wonderful stage of life where I wake up every morning knowing that I know everything. I mean ... I KNOW EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW!

SO, STOP MESSING WITH MY MIND FOLK! CHEERS, Bob(deckman)NelsonS

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 11:32 AM

Bob, I made that comment mostly tongue in cheek at the prospect of those of us who have watched the "what is folk?" war over the years here.

Call it what you want, just play the music, folks.

Mick

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 12:32 PM

Dear Richard Bridge,

I still believe that the belief that a song has to be from the pen of an anonymous author to be classed as 'traditional' is either a complete 'red herring' or, at best, an irrelevancy. I repeat, it's the PROCESS that the song has been through that makes it traditional (or not - as the case may be).

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,Pedant Number 4
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 01:21 PM

'Trad' means out of copyright, i.e the composer/author is not known (='anon') or has been dead for more than 70 years (e.g. O'Carolan). This means you can record the work without royalties being payable. However any responsible singer/player should make at least a small effort to find any maker, and then credit the same on any recording and in any live perfomance when reasonable and appropriate.

'The Tradition' is a strange concept that means different things to different people. Most feel it refers to a method of passing material from person to person by aural means only (with some sense of ownership impicit) which became larely defunct when audio recording was invented. When someone uses the phrase The Tradition we might assume they are referring to this process as it relates to their particular cultural preference, ethnic background or chosen geographic domicile. But not necessarily.

'Traditional' can therefore refer to either of the above situations - but also to other cultural activities which have some element of repetition and continuity, and are in some way cherished by a community. If a piece of music or song becomes associated with that activitity (e.g. 'Football's Coming Home') it may then be called traditional - though it may not be of The Tradition or Trad.

Also if a singer or player learns a piece by ear from another musician who does not pass on the writer's credit, or from a recording or from sheet music which incorrectly credits it as Trad, then that piece becomes Traditional by default (I've even heard Flanders and Swan credited thus). But that doesn't mean it's Trad, (c/f Fiddlers Green, Galway Farmer), or necessarily of The Tradition - though it if happens often enough it will become so eventually.

If a work is so old (how old depends on the individual making the judgment) that really no moral imperative survives for a credit to a known writer ('Greensleeves') then most would agree that the piece has become Traditional.

If a written or recorded music is correctly credited Trad, AND it has been passed on aurally, AND it's perty old, AND it has acquired cultural currency, THEN, and only then, are you SAFE to call it Traditional!

Clear?

Yours sincerely

PN4

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Greg B
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 05:03 PM

In my experience it's any music that was being made the
way you make it prior to your learning to make it that way,
and developing a closed mind about how it should be done
'properly.' Or being made the way you first heard it.

I began to develop this opinion on being informed at a
seisun in New Jersey, that my playing of 'chunes' on a
melodeon which was not tuned in the keys of B/C, C/C#,
or C#/D wasn't 'traditional.' They'd never heard of how
the technique was actually developed between the wars.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 05:30 PM

"The label "Traditional", flawed as it may be, at least suggest to me that I won't be surprised by a rock group or a post-modern songwriter."

Unless you buy the Springsteen CD or something by a progressive artist.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 06:59 PM

Pedant No 4 - that is a complete construct. Out of copyrght means out of copyright, and it means different things in each jurisdiction. There are hundreds of pages in Laddie Prescott & Vitoria (the principal UK copyright textbook) and Nimmer (USA) and that rather splendid Australian one the name of which I always forget about the ways in which copyright may fail to arise, or be lost. "Copyright" is absolutely nothing to do with "traditional" - except that it is hard to think of a way in which a traditional song could be copyright (an old unpublished one could be until 2038 - check it out).

There are times when it is wise not to rush in.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 09:24 PM

Given the background of the majority of folk who post on Mudcat, it's not surprising that a discussion on what is traditional folk music seems to be limited to a consideration of Anglo-European and Anglo-American music.

I concur with George Papavgeris's 14 Oct 06 - 06:35 AM statement that the definition of tradition is arbitrary and depends on "whose tradition, established when and transmitted how, relative to which moment in time etc etc).

And, since I feel that this stew needs some pepper, here's an excerpt from Center for Black Music Research-African Music

"Traditional and Contemporary African Music
Definition of Style

Traditional African music is as historically ancient, rich, and diverse as the continent itself. Traditional African music is passed down orally (or aurally) and is not written, and it also relies heavily on percussion instruments of every variety, including xylophones, drums, and tone-producing instruments such as the mbira or "thumb piano." Traditional African music is generally performed with functional intent in celebrations, festivals, and story-telling.

Contemporary African music is also highly diverse, but it shares many characteristics of Western popular music in the mid-twentieth-century. Beginning with the advent of recording technology and the development of the recording industry, contemporary African music has been heavily influenced by R&B, American soul music, Jamaican reggae, and other musical forms from the Americas. Today, the African music scene is as rich and active as that of any other continent on the globe, and numerous popular styles exist, including, for example, high life, Nigerian juju, and West African makossa. Moreover, a thriving hip hop scene exists in every sub-Saharan African country from Sierra Leone to Madagascar."

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 09:28 PM

One website on traditional African music that I recommend is http://www.coraconnection.com/

As that website notes:
Finding good recordings of West African music is not easy. Some stores may carry some of the more popular CDs, but it's hard to evaluate them, and sales people rarely know that much about African music. You can find new and old African music on the web, but what to buy?

As many have found out the hard way, the quality of today's World Music offerings varies widely, in terms of both music and production values. So what can you do to find the good recordings?

Let Cora Connection help you tap into the world of exceptional African music recordings. Explore our web site to learn more about our favorite African music artists and their music.

Listen to the rich musical traditions of West Africa
• Timeless Kora Classics »

• Vintage sounds of Golden Afrique»

• New Recordings and Old Favorites »

• Guitar music from Malian musician, extraordinaire, Djelimady Tounkara" …

etc.

-snip-

One reason I like that particular website is the information it provides on selected traditional African instruments such as the cora {kora] and the ngoni. Here is an excerpt of the article on the ngoni.

"Ngoni is the Bambara name for an ancient traditional lute found throughout West Africa. Though typically a small instrument the ngoni has a big sound and a big place in the history of West African music. Its body is a hollowed-out, canoe-shaped piece of wood with dried animal skin stretched over it like a drum. The neck is a fretless length of doweling that inserts into the body, which unlike the kora (whose neck goes totally through its calabash resonator) stops short of coming out the base of the instrument. For this reason musicologists classify the ngoni as a "internal spike lute." The ngoni's strings (which are made of thin fishing line like the kora) are lashed to the neck with movable strips of leather, and then fed over a fan-shaped bridge at the far end of the body. The string closest to the player actually produces the highest pitch, and the player plucks it with his thumb, just like a 5-string banjo. This feature, coupled with the fact that the ngoni's body is a drum rather than a box, provides strong evidence that the ngoni is the African ancestor of the banjo."
http://www.coraconnection.com/pages/ngoni.html

-snip-

A diagram of the ngoni, and some notation, and sound clip are also provided at that link.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 10:04 PM

Ron-
Does one actually think that Springsteen would label himself "Traditional"? Nobody else in his right mind would.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 10:37 PM

Well said! Bob

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 10:42 PM

I think they will continue to find "traditional" pockets even in NOrth America here and there..Montana, Missisippi, all the M states. And certainly what Azizi wrote about Africa. And has Eastern Europe ...the surface even been scratched yet? And everywhere that people hopefully hopefully are starting to know freedom...or might sooner than later..the Mideast...I say there is no shortage and won't be until there is a McDonald's on every corner and maybe even not then. mg

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 11:07 PM

If you want to know what tradtional and folk music are, check this link--24 one hour radio programs, streaming or podcast format, based on Moe Asch's Folkways collection.

The Folkways Collection

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 11:16 PM

Of course not Dick, but if you saw a CD from an artist that you do not know and see "traditional" songs listed, you could be in for a surprise. No one in their right mind should judge a book by its cover. The word is flawed.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,Pedant Number 4
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 03:44 AM

I think Mr Bridge only bothered to read the first sentence of my post.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,Pedant Number 4
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 04:11 AM

And just for sake of completeness as it's been raised since; writers who write new traditional-sounding material (sometimes described as From The Tradition) are not making Traditional material - though it may become so eventually by any of the four routes outlined in my post.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Darowyn
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 05:56 AM

Dick Greenhaus asks if you could consider Bruce Springsteen as traditional (deligerately lower case).
I think you can. At a time when sequenced and synthesized music was predominant, he reverted to the traditions of guitar-based american rock music.
The serious point is to stress that there are many traditions. In particular there seems to be a big difference between US and UK approaches to it.
We've had a comparison with vintage cars, but I'd like to compare music with antique furniture. It is antique whether or not the maker is known, purely as a consequence of age. However, some antiques have been restored- often beyond recognition. Some apparent antiques are actually reproductions.
The really valueable pieces are those which are completely original, in good condition, and vitally, were well made in the first place.
Jumping back to songs- the same applies to them. The real, worthwhile traditional songs are those were great songs to start with, and which have not been Carthied, Watersoned or Hutchinged beyong recognition.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Tootler
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 06:25 AM

To me "tradition" implies doing something in the way it has "always" been done. My dictionary refers to tradition as a handing on from one generation to the next.

In folk music that means to me, a style of playing or singing; a way of presenting the music. It also implies a certain repertoire of songs and tunes which are shared by the particular community.

To survive a tradition needs to be able to evolve so that it can reflect the changes that occur in the community over time. New songs and tunes are added and old ones are lost. Sometimes lost ones may be rediscovered and brought back because they have a resonance with a particular generation.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: ositojuanito
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 06:30 AM

I have always taken it to be music written within a certain tradition.

John

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 11:33 AM

Well, if you want to hear traditional material done in what I consider to be an emphatically non-traditional manner, listen (if you can stand it) to "Rogues Gallery" (the CD that's cashing in on Pirates of the Caribbean). Makes Springsteen sound like an authentic folk.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 02:22 PM

Here is a little bit more evidence as to what real traditional music is--this is especially for you, George--The Halkias Family--Epirot Musicians

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 02:33 PM

Thanks M.Ted; I know the Halkias family (every Greek does, whether a fan of traditional music or not). Indeed, in 1986 I recorded with Petroloukas Halkias - I was in a choir putting down some traditional songs with accompaniment, and I remember how frustrated he was at having to follow the arranger's precisely-specified lines; in the end the arranger gave up and let him have his head, at which point Petroloukas produced sheer magic, and indeed on the record cover he is credited with the clarinet arrangement. I don't know if it is true or urban myth, but John Dankworth is supposed to have said once, upon hearing Petroloukas bending notes in typical Epirus fashion, "now I can go home and smash my clarinet!". Now for the surprise:

Did you know that "Halkias" means "Copper" in Greek? So, we have our own "Copper" family carrying on the tradition in Epirus.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,David Bishop
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 03:47 PM

what is traditional today is just what is fashionable at this moment,what allways amazes me is that wherever I travel up and down the country to various singerounds /singers nights /open mikes etc,you hear the same narrow set of songs which seems to be getting narrower aka show of hands/spiers and bowden me thinks there is a folk mafia regurgetating the same old songs in the same old ways so i say long live innovation not just tradition travesty even though theres no such thing as a new tune or even a new song there can allways be a new twist or a differnt feel/emotion .that can touch the parts other songs fail to reach, regards
                                     david

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 04:33 PM

hey fellas-
"Traditional" isn't a value judgement; there's lots of lousy trad material and singing just as there's lots of lousy non-trad music and singing. It's just helpful to keep them separate.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 04:35 PM

So what is 'TRADITIONAL' spaghetti sauce?

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 06:31 PM

Peace:
Probably doesn't contain chocolate chips. Sorry, I'm being flip and the anolagy is, I think, a valid one. A "traditional" spaghetti sauce would be one based on tomatoes, with flavoring ingredients--oregano, garlic, onion, pepper, wine, mushrooms, basil, sugar, wine etc.-- apt to be available to an Italian cook. While modern food distribution may have made other ingredients available, I'd think that the sauce would stop being traditional when the taste of these "new" and "exotic" flavorings began to dominate the mix. Sure, a good cook might opt for a smidge of chili pepper, or possibly soy sauce, but while a heavy dose of these might conceivably make a tasty sauce, it would no longer be spaghetti sauce as we know it.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 06:36 PM

I think we've talked about the Halkias family before, George--Back when I lived in Philly, my friend and neighbor, John Roussos, played santouri with Pericles. He would drop by John's house periodically, and would occasionally join in the weekly sessions that John hade. It would be misleading to claim that I "played" with him, but I was in the mix, pound out chords--

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 07:59 PM

"Makes Springsteen sound like an authentic folk."

Which brings us back to the original question! Obviously there is no answer! "Authentic" or "traditional" or "folk" is usually in the eye of the beholder.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 03:01 AM

If by "traditional" spaghetti sauce you mean Bolognese sauce, I would doubt the mushrooms, but I'd agree with wine twice (as stated). Maybe Paprika. Some might use a bit of milk or cream. A little salt. A lot of tomato puree. I use a lot (relatively) of chilli, some Worcestershire sauce, and a dash of lemon or lime. An easy cheat to save quantifying the small amounts of sugar and salt is a squirt of tomato sauce (really has to be Heinz). Oh, and don't forget the meat!

A pretty fair analogue for what I do to traditional songs, really - muck about with them, boogie them up a bit, and try to find an easy way to play them! But don't forget the bits that have always been there.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 09:34 AM

the 1001 O NEILLS COLLECTION . I would consider traditional music,plus the music and songs in the vaughan williams library.
most people would agree with these,and probably shanties, but after that it is very difficult, one man may think the Mistletoe Bough is ,another may not.
as Ron says, [like beauty] it is in the eye of the beholder.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 10:17 AM

Azizi has hit on what I've been led to believe trditional music, song and dance is:-

Traditional African music is as historically ancient, rich, and diverse as the continent itself. Traditional African music is passed down orally (or aurally) and is not written......Traditional African music is generally performed with functional intent in celebrations, festivals, and story-telling.

So, the source cannot be attributed and it is passed from one generation to the next orally, aurally or in the case of dance, by example.

Does this mean that trad stuff has any more merit than contemporary? I don't think so. Time has it's way of sustaining what seems to be of value or use to us and the rest is left behind, maybe to be rediscovered much later. Does traditional stuff have anything of relevance to today or to to teach us? I think so. History often repeats itself, with both good and bad consequences.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: treewind
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 11:08 AM

The trouble with definitions is that we try to separate tunes and songs into those that are traditional and those that aren't, and that kind of definition falls apart all over the place, for a good reason.

"Traditional" isn't a type of song, it's a PROCESS that happens to a song, a way of passing it on.

Not knowing the identity of the author of the song is a side effect of that process, but if you thought a song was traditional and then you suddenly learn that somebody (whether still alive or not) wrote it, the song doesn't lose its traditional status, because it never had it in the first place. All it means is that you originally learnt the song through that traditional process (i.e. hearing someone else sing it).

Of course the traditional process has a lot of other side effects that we attribute to "traditional" songs, like evolving and changing with time and thus being found in many versions with different tunes and variations on words.

As for relevance, many traditional songs deal with human emotions and predicaments that are timeless. It doesn't matter if the details of the song are out of date (sailing ships, swords, horses, greedy millers, milkmaids and ploughboys etc.) the real issues (love gained and lost, jealousy, greed, exploitation, success, failure, friendship, war, revenge) are all very much still with us and a good song illuminates the associated feelings with a clarity that makes people want to learn the song and pass it on.

A comment on compemporary songwriting - there seem to be two sorts, the ones that are in a "traditional" style and the ones that imitate pop music. There is a useful distinction to be made here. Pop songs are created as an instrumental arrangement created in the recording studio, of which the vocal part often doesn't stand up an a song by itself; modern folk songs of the more traditional style have a coherent tune and lyrics that make sense by themsleves. It's not surprising the latter style is easier to learn, take away and perform to someone else - in other words the song is compatible with the "folk process".

my €0.02's worth

Anahata

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Snuffy
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 07:52 PM

Old songs by unknown authors are not necessarily traditional: they are just old - many of the Child Ballads existed only in written form 100 years ago and have never been collected from "source singers"

Being "traditional" is not a fixed attribute - songs are entering (and leaving) the tradition all the time: I reckon the average lifetime of a song in the the people's consciousness is three generations. Anything older than that which is still sung in non-professional settings can be reckoned to be traditional, irrespective of its origin or authorship. The songs in my tradition are what I heard my parents and grandparents sing plus other newer songs I learned while growing up.

For example, songs of WWII were well known to my grandparents (the WWI generation) and my parents (who fought in WWII) and were part of their tradition. I learned many of these from them, but my children know far fewer of these than I, and their kids will know hardly any. The rest will not be passed on, and will gradually fade from the national consciousness, to be replaced by succeeding generations of songs.

I learned loads of contemporary songs growing up in the 50s and 60s ranging from Dylan, Seeger etc to "The Wild Rover" and "How Much Is That Doggy In The Window". My kids learned many of these from me and their kids will also learn from me and them.

I guess that probably less than 1% of any era's songs will pass to the next generation and 1% of those to the next and so on. What is left is the enduring tradition. Songs like Doggy In The Window, Delilah, Simply The Best and many Beatles songs are now well on their way to becoming traditional songs: more people know them than know where they came from. We could find out who wrote them if we really wanted to but it doesn't matter much to us; we may have a fair idea of who recorded them, but that's not really important either, because traditional songs are the songs that we sing.

Some may have been absorbed with mother's milk, while others have been provided by Tin Pan Alley - the folk taste is all encompassing. Collectors may have deprecated vast swathes of their sources' repertoires, but traditional singers from Joseph Taylor through Phil Tanner to Walter Pardon sang "unsuitable" and "worthless" commercial minstrel and music hall songs as well as the "old songs".

A good song is a good song whether 500 years or 5 minutes old, whether the author is known or not. And good singers love good songs, and will take them from wherever they can find them. The best will survive to become the next generation of the tradition: when they no longer speak to the people they will be forgotten and replaced by more relevant songs, new or revived.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 09:57 PM

MANY MANY thanks to all of you that have contributed to this thread so far. When I started this thread I had no idea what response I would get and in my innocence and some naivity I was not aware that this is such a hotly debated subject.

It is just something that has plagued my brain cells for a long time now!

Your contributions have been magnificent. I now appreciate that the question I posted has so many diverse and conflicting views in response that if I was a student of the history of folk music I would probably be in a position right now to write a full thesis thanks to all your intelligent and well considered contributions and references.

It is obviously a big subject to wrestle with and like many of you I hate to shoe-horn/put in boxes, definitions of different music styles. It always seems to get very messy and subjective so you end up chasing your tail.

If I may however, I would like to express some of my thoughts and conclusions which are a direct result of your collective contributions. Please feel free to shoot them down at will!

1.When I started this thread I intended to raise a question and not to challenge your attitudes.

2.I do not believe that "TRADITIONAL" Folk Music means that the original authors must be both unknown and dead or out of copyright. This is just symptomatic of the age when they were spawned without todays advantage of instant recording and down loading via CD/DVD and internet etc.
Levels of education,literacy and the ability to communicate to the masses was very poor so only the most "popular" and therefore handed down songs survived. These songs survived because they were 'catchy', had a strong CHORUS and expressed shared and meaningful feelings and emotions of the time. So it is a 'filtering' process.

3.I do also think that "Tradition" is a process of evolution and is not dead. It really is a stream of continuous motion and is timeless. Many of todays "contemporary singers/Traditional-style singers and composers" will create the TRADITIONAL Folk Music of the future. Just because something is "New" does not mean it is not of value. They will live on to form part of the "tradition" for generations to follow.

The definition of 'traditional' is indeed starting to creak. It is time for a re-think. Why do we love and embrace the past so much yet feel unwilling to equally embrace the present and the future?
We owe it to our desendents to express the here and now with our heart felt emotions and observations with less of the seemingly heart felt need to cling,limpit-like, to comfort-inducing images of the past - e.g rather sad, in my view, churning out songs about fishermen,plough boys,milk maids, farmers, hunters,old battles,fair maidens,harvesting,love lost and love gained etc.

We always seem to give value to "traditional" and see contemporary as cheap. This is indeed a time warp that needs to be finally shot dead and terminated. Our emotions and feelings are just as relevant today as they were 300 years ago.
Otherwise we create a black hole and our contempory age gets sucked into oblivion.

Nuff said and many thanks for all your very valuable and very well considered input. Please keep it coming if I haven't already turned you off!

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 10:23 PM

I don't think that anybody has suggested that modern songs are, in themselves, less worthwhile than older ones which are (perhaps) considered "traditional". They are a different subject, that's all.

Perhaps some of them will become part of tomorrow's tradition; that will be a subject for tomorrow. Until it happens, any discussion of "tradition" is best focussed on what comprises "tradition" as we experience it now: that is to say (and as Anahata and I, to name but two, have already said) the procedures involved together with the relevant cultural artefacts (songs, melodies, dances, narratives and so on); and their observed contexts.

Anonymity, copyright status, and -to an extent- age, are pretty much irrelevant.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,Cynic
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 12:11 AM

It's a marketing term, much like 'world music' or 'folk music' are, and has no fixed definition.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST, PRS member
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 03:14 AM

The word Traditional as applied to songs, tunes and music in general does have a legal definition in the UK, whatever else we might decide, amongst friends, that it may mean .

It means exactly the same as Anon.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 03:45 AM

good point, guest prs.
            to M DOUGLAS. But the process of learning orally, is bound to change with the advent of the computer,. If I learn a song words or tune, via the computer, have I learnt it orally. or is it learned orally, only if I have done so by listening to a cd[ did that person learn it orally], but not from written music [ even if he was C SHARP who had written it down from an oral source].
    last point, If I go to the VAUGHAN WILLIAMS LIBRARY and learn from a book, the Seeds of love, as collected by Cecil Sharp, does the song cease to be traditional, because I have not learned it orally, But continue to be traditional if i learned it from a recording made by Sharp [ if there is one].
but yet if I asked people at a festival or club,afterI had played/ sung it,[ and they were ignorant of how I had acquired it,] I am sure they would say its traditonal,Dick Miles

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 03:58 AM

When I first became interested in folk songs nearly everybody I came into contact with more or less agreed what they were because there was a consensus. They were the songs that could be found in The Penguin Book of English Folk Songs from 'All Things Are Quite Silent' to 'Young Girl Cut Down In Her Prime'; or in The Singing Island (apart from the few contemporary ones in there). The songs we didn't know, we recognised by their sound, characterisation, geographic and social references, their tunes and their poetic forms. We weren't too worried about definition because we knew what we meant. If we were asked to explain folk song we were more-or-less satisfied with the definition agreed on in 1954 by the International Folk Music Council:

"Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are: (i) continuity which links the present with the past; (ii) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (iii) selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives.
The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community.
The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character."

After a while the water became muddied and eventually some of us retreated to the term 'traditional', so as not to be confused with much of the material that was being performed at some of the 'folk clubs'. The term folk became a convenient pigeon-hole in which to file anything that didn't fit into any other category. Personally, I still find the words traditional and folk, when used in the same sentence, tautology.
When I became interested in traditional singers (source singers, for the want of a better description), I began to come to the conclusion that the songs I thought of as folk/traditional served a function within the communities I came into contact with (Travellers - Irish and Scots, agricultural workers, Norfolk fishermen, Irish building workers etc.). That function was distinct from all other types of songs to the singers we met. Sure, they were entertainment, but they were also a way of recording their history (great and small events), aspirations, emotions, national and social pride, anger; anything that affected them personally and as a community. Many of the singers, contrary to popular belief, categorised their songs; 'the old songs', 'come-all-ye's', 'my father's songs', 'fireside songs'; some singers in the West of Ireland used the term 'traditional'. Norfolk singer Walter Pardon spoke of 'folk songs' and was extremely articulate in separating those songs from his music-hall, Victorian tear-jerkers and the pop songs of a bygone age that he also included in his repertoire (please don't make the mistake others have in putting this down to his contact with the revival – anybody who knew Walter will tell you he was very much his own man).
Bert Lloyd suggested in his book 'Folk Song In England' (1967) that maybe the term folk needed re-defining, but it seems to me that that rather than that re-definition having taken place there has been an abandoning of any definition and the terms, traditional and folk, when applied to song, are now totally meaningless.
I agree absolutely with Anahanta that we are not necessarily talking about a type of song, but a process that produces a certain type of song. I don't know whether the process that produced the songs is still in operation; the communities that gave birth to the songs have either disappeared or have changed beyond all recognition. People no longer express themselves to each other with songs or record events within their communities, rather they/we have become passive recipients of entertainment and culture – television has seen to that. Nowadays people, particularly young people, are more likely to communicate via a mobile phone!
Most of the songs being written today, even those in the folk style, are introspective and private; as a friend said to me, you feel like tapping the singers on the shoulder and saying, "hello, can I come in".
Somebody suggested that we can't live in the past – of course we can't, but we can certainly continue to receive our inspiration and stimulation from the old models. I still am moved by the old songs and ballads; I still get angry when I hear a story of a man transported thousands of miles for trying to feed his family, or of a farmworker forced into war by a press gang. The Duke of Athol's Nurse still makes me laugh and I continue to be excited by the epic exploits of Long Johnny More. These songs and ballads as far as I am concerned are as timeless as Homer and Shakespeare and Dickens and Hardy.
It seems to me that at one time some of our modern singers were using the old models to create new pieces. MacColl, Liam Wheldon, Pete Smith, Eric Bogle, Cyril Tawney, Leon Rossolson and a handful of others were writing songs that stood a chance of being listened to by the next generation. That doesn't seem to happen so much nowadays. Con 'Fada' O'Drisceoil and Adam MacNaughton still continue to make me laugh, but most of the others leave me cold.
Malcolm Douglas summed it up perfectly for me right at the beginning of this thread:
"Our descendants, on the other hand, may inherit some sort of tradition from us. It will depend on whether or not we leave them anything worth having".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 04:10 AM

What a good post.